Peptides: The Science, Uses & Safety | Dr. Abud Bakri

They're the growth hormone or their GHRH and they're engine modulation therapies as this Trinity stack Trinity stuff to get very fit very healthy quickly

So a lot of these transformations you see in CEOs and celebrities and stuff is using a combination of those three things You know your TRT plus TurboTide where you're about a true tide and whatever it may be and then using a growth hormone modulation if you're gonna forward growth hormone or that's tomorrow at the Portland and you're seeing people lose a lot of fat

“gain a lot of muscle in short amounts of time. Is that healthy?”

We'll find out but that is like this celebrity protocol. Welcome to the human lab podcast where we discuss science, science-based tools for everyday life I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology

at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Abud Bakri and internal medicine physician who is also

extremely knowledgeable on the science and use of peptides. When I say peptides, I mean both FDA-approved peptides such as the GLP agonists. You probably know these as things like OZEMPIC, Monjaro, and Reddit true tide as well as peptides such as body protection compound 157 or BPC157 which as you'll learn today has a very long history of being used in humans for gut health and tissue repair and many interesting studies in animals supporting its potential use in humans but a minimum of formal studies in humans meaning one. We discuss BPC157, what it does and how as well as things like

growth hormone secretagogs like Tessa Morellen, MK677 and others. And we talk about things like GHK copper which nowadays many people are using to promote collagen synthesis and repair for aesthetic reasons like

improving skin, hair and so on. We also talk about peptides that have been studied for the

purpose of DNA repair and longevity like Epithalin and Pinellin which also have been touted to improve REM sleep and improving cognitive function. You'll also learn what is known and what is not known about these peptides both in terms of function and safety. During today's episode, you will come to appreciate the Dr. Bakri has truly encyclopedic knowledge about these peptides. He is also formally trained as a physician and as a consequence, you will learn how to think about peptides based on whether

“or not they have known receptors or not that turns out to be very important and what their real”

safety profiles are as well as what particular concerns you ought to have if you are considering using peptides of any kind. As a formally trained board certified physician, he comes at this topic through the lens of a physician but also somebody who is very interested in the current status in future of peptide medicine. Today's discussion thanks to Dr. Bakri is a true master class on peptides. By the end of today's discussion, I promise you again thanks to him that you will

be among the most informed doctor or otherwise about peptides from the GLPs to BPC157 and all the others that I mentioned including some that I didn't mention here in the introduction. So it is a real gift and honor to have this knowledge presented to all of us. So buckle up, you're about to learn a lot about peptides. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring

zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public and keeping with that theme today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. AbuD Bakri. Dr. AbuD Bakri, welcome, it's beer, peptides, huge topic and huge category of biology and medicine. So we should start off by breaking this into categories so that people can wrap their minds around it because that word peptides has come to mean stuff people buy and

“take and maybe should or shouldn't buy and take. But there's a lot of important and quite simple”

biology to understand before anyone should even be thinking about any of that. So if I just push the word peptides towards you, how do you carve that up in terms of thinking about it as an empty as a clinician and maybe also put yourself into the mind of interested, let's call it a peptide curious person out there. So scientifically, I would say it's one of the languages of the human body, right? So the body likes these different languages to communicate between cells,

going from DNA to RNA to proteins, which are can be broken down. It's pod peptides and peptides. And peptides at one of these languages, steroid hormones or another language, and then peptides can be broken down further into subcategories, whether or not they have receptors or they have no receptor. And that kind of changes the clinical effects we'll see like the GLP ones, which have a very strong clinical effect. Compared to these obscure peptides like BPC157, TB500, TB4,

that don't have a clear target. They have receptors, but they just have many of them or they don't even have a receptor identified for BPC157 or TB4, just stopping right there. There's

Let's take BPC157 for the moment. We're going to talk a lot about it today. If it doesn't

“have a receptor, what are some ways that it could impact cells and organs and so forth?”

Or is it that there are receptors we just don't know what they are? It could be that, the latter, that maybe the receptor is still elusive, or it could be that it's modifying certain proteins that already exist, or linking different peptides, proteins together, and a more favorable fashion for gene transcription. The Russian peptides are all epigenetic modifiers that they bind to the group of DNA in certain spots that either open up or close the chromatin to certain areas

of genetic expression, and they've modeled this out like a steroid hormone. So steroid hormones bind, they bind to like the end receptor, binds to HT or testosterone, goes into the nucleus, turns on all the endogenic genes. Like this, your body is a good example of that. Yes, exactly. So, like I nearly on that we've talked about, shuttles, heat shock proteins with

endogenic receptors. God it. So if I just pause us for a second, we should think about this

word peptides in two major categories, at least one is has known receptors, plural, like the GLPs. The other would category would be, does not have known receptors, might have receptors, but can definitely impact biology in interesting ways or so say the animal data. Okay, a lot of animal data. All right, I know a lot of people are interested in GLPs, and I want to go there, but because I know most people are probably listening to this foremost because they want to hear

about the other stuff. Let's start with PPC-15, certain. What is it? What do we know about it? We'll explore safety and what is your stance on it from the perspective of a consumer and a clinician?

“So first of all, what is BPC-157? The best way to look at it is, you know, as humans we've been”

looking for medicines in plants for thousands of years. And in the last, let's say 150 years, we've been looking for medicines in cells. So animal derivatives plant, plant thrive for medicines. It's the way to think about it, you think about aspirin, you think about metformin, the stands, there's all discovered in plant tissues, stands, more so fungi, but you get the point. Now we've been looking into animal tissues to find cures medicines treatments. So a group in Croatia in the 90s,

looks out for this peptide called BPC, eventually named BPC. It's a $40,000 giant peptide called BPC. BPC-157 is a 15 amino acids from that giant peptide. We don't naturally make BPC-157, that's what you'll commonly hear online. We make BPC the big protein. Did this group go looking for body protection compound? For those that aren't familiar in the laboratory, you can take a tissue grind it up. You can do what's called fractionation. You can start

separating basically cells and tissues and liquids according to the size of different proteins.

Like different filters, we'll just like certain filters, we'll let sand through or pebbles through or boulders through. That's kind of what you do and then you figure out what the sequences are and then you throw them on cells or put them in an animal as you try and figure out what they do. Why were they motivated to look for what eventually became BPC? The Pavlov love the famous scientists that would do the experience on the dogs with the bell and make the dogs hell of it.

The other work he did was on gastric juices of dogs. What he do is he'd put a whole dog's stomachs. He would feed them food and then get the gastric juices and sell that as a medicine.

“That's how he made his money. That was a part of his business. He got no more prized. He was also kind”

of like, what did he have a call code? It was like an interpovo for discount to check out?

Yeah, amazing. So this is BPC or BPC-157 exists. There's probably other peptides and compounds

in there, but they found that gastric juices had positive effects on healing, on people that had "gird" in these kind of... Wait, so people were taking BPC in the time of Pavlov. They didn't know what BPC was. They were taking gastric juices from dogs. For what? GI distress. GI discomfort. Some people were trying for wound healing. There was a big push in this era for like finding animal tissues and putting them into humans. That science fills it out. At the same time, there's a

scientist, Hansi Lee, that's coming up with the stress adaptation theory. And he notices that animals are stressed out. Three things happens to them. Their journals get really big. So they make more cortisol. Their gastric lining gets destroyed. And then their thymus gland and their lymphatic shrink down. And he has this published paper where we have clear adrenal from a stress animal, versus a non-stress animal. A thymus from an animal that's stressed, it versus not. So this group

is looking and think, hey Pavlov had this gastric juice. Hansi Lee said that there was damage when during stress. There must be some kind of cytoprotective or organic protective compound in the gut. The stomach is a very rich and you can tissue. It makes growl and all these other hormones. So they're like, there must be something else in the gut juice that protects the gut lining from further damage. Where people drinking the gastric juices of dogs, from the injecting them, drinking

was mostly what they did. And it was supposed to be a medical elixir. There's only had many, many things in it, many peptides, and it's Pepsi, like upset stomach. And this kind of stuff is what

Independent of what was sold on Dr. Pavlov's non-existent website. This was in like the early

“19th century. Exactly. And then Celia was what? 1930s? I think Celia is about a year ago.”

Someone will correct us if they're wrong. And this other group in Croatia was a 91.

Okay. There's their first paper talks about this. There must be some kind of compound. They identified

the big 40-dolton protein BPC. And then they were like, what's causing the actual biological effects? They identified BPC, 15 amino acid peptide. That's causing all these effects. There's actually more peptides in gastric juices that some other scientists may or may not have already identified. This field of peptides is going to be very interesting because almost every organ has a signature of peptides. Like if you think back Dr. Pavlov, in 1850s, 1880s, finds

carnesine and carnesine in muscle of cattle. So you can think about the first peptides that are found or carnesine. And then carnesine is the amino acid that they have positive effects on strength training and performance and different effects there. But that was the whole idea as like, hey, there's muscle peptides that may have muscle effects. Right. It got peptides and I've got effects. So this Croatian group isolates this 15 amino acid kind of mini segment of BPC. They and

others start injecting into mice, inducing injuries to nerve, to tendon. Maybe describe a few of those effects. I'm familiar with that literature, but I can tell that you are far more familiar with it. So what are some of the impressive effects that they observed that led to where we are today? Yep. So they did all kinds of horrible things. These mice, they would, you know, sever tendons and then give them BPC through oral or injectable interparatoneal

administrations and they'd have faster healing times. They would sever ACLs of the mice. They would do burn wounds. So what no patient has a burn wound like dice you, they end up having crazy gastric ulcers. But if they were able to put BPC on top of leaf of the mouse, they would have no gastric ulcers. They name it as this anti-stress compound. It's how they look at it. Now when they

“do that Achilles paper on the mice, that's what explodes the bodybuilder interest and leads us to”

today where we are like, oh, MSK injuries must be BPC tendons and muscle injuries. But the original idea of BPC was to use it as a gastric treatment, not to use it as a muscle skeletal. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, 8 sleep. 8 sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating and sleep tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is

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Again, that's hellolingo.com/Huberman. Let me pause you here. People are probably saying, "Should I take it or show it?" Yeah, just hang in there for us because this is really, really important. What is so striking to me about BPC? And by the way, that's not an endorsement for BPC. It's just what's so striking to me because my lab worked for a long time on optic nerve reaper and neural regeneration. Nervous don't like to regenerate in the central nervous system.

Ask anyone who's had a stroke or an optic nerve injury. It's a tough road at best.

There are data that I've seen with my own eyes that show that you can accelerate healing of tendon, of ligament, of nerve pathways and animals. In animals, yes, thank you. And that it just generally promotes, quote-unquote, "repair." That's kind of weird. It is weird. Right? Because I could spend the next 10 hours or more telling you about all the ways that people have tried to get nerves to regenerate and couldn't. And as you point out, this thing doesn't really have one

specific, at least known receptor. So the data on the gut make a lot of sense. This is after all

“a gut peptide. It makes sense that gut peptide could get lots of places in the body. Right?”

But what is it doing mechanistically if we know to support regeneration or replenishment of

all these different tissue types? Because a neuron is a very different cell type than a fiber blast

or one of the bits of collagen that make up different connective tissues. It's modulating a lot of these growth and healing pathways. Like in the models of damaging the endothelolayer or the epithelolayer of different tissues, you'll get more vegetables, secondly. So that's the the vascular endothelol growth factor. So get more blood vessels and your genesis being formed, which creates all of the controversy around BPC safety. You'll get cell migration, especially when coupled with TB500 and TB4,

you'll get more access of the healing factors to the area through angogenic pathways. On top of that, you'll get an anti stress effect. So the other big thing that they did was they'd give corticosteroids with BPC-157 to these mice. And usually when you have a wound, you give corticosteroids, the corticosteroids will slow or even stop at the wound healing from happening. When BPC was administered, the healing was either the same or even better. Is BPC considered anti-inflammatory

because based on what you just said, it almost seems like it helps maintain some of the pro-inflammatory response. Yeah. Some people might be thinking, why would you want inflammation? What Dr. Bakery just said is if you block inflammation with corticosteroids, you aren't going to call in the signals to repair tissues. Yes. So lowering inflammation is a dicey thing that maybe we set aside for later than the conversation if we have time. But is it thought that BPC is lowering

inflammation or is just somehow hitting the gas pedal on all these regenerative restorative biological processes? It's more putting the gas pedal on these processes to bring in the immune system, the healing factors. For example, in one tendon model, they noticed that it increased the amount of growth hormone receptors on the tendon. So theoretically, this would allow more growth hormone to dock in and cause the outgrowth of the tendon and the regrowth of it. So there's

that theory there. Downstream, it will modulate the nitric oxide synthesis. So that's a big

“thing when it comes to wound healing because you need to dial it to blood vessels, you need to call”

in different cells. So it's really changing the way cells behave at that level. But that's only for the tendon side of it. They also did weird things on the neurological side. Like they would make these mice drunk. Okay. And they would then give them BPC and they'd get less drunk and when they go through Mases. Oh, boy. Okay. We did not just recommend you take BPC with alcohol. No, I'll be very clear. But people are like, you know, we'll do their own interpretation.

Yeah. So I'm being semi-facetious. But very interesting. And then also they would give them the mice drunk and then have them withdraw from alcohol. And like withdraws deadly. If we have a patient in the hospital withdraws, they could die during that withdrawal if they're not given benzodiazepines. They got BPC and they didn't have the withdraws in symptoms. Like, what's going on here? This is a very interesting compound. I think it gets all the hype for the MSK stuff.

But I think the neurological neuropsychiatric let's say and in gastric effects are way more interesting when it comes to that. Because it's modulated in the gut brain access and interesting way. Well, a people come to us and they're like, my Adrolls not working since I've been taking oral BPC. Are they happy with that effect? No, they're not happy. They're very mad because it seems like it's a blunt thing. They're Adroll. So it's doing something to film the top energy signaling, both on both

sides, both withdrawal when it comes to the gap in hergic side. But also the peak of signaling.

“So I feel like Perus Reddit, which you should never do, you'll find all these end hedonia discussions”

about BPC. People have feel like depressed and low energy. Incredible. So I seem to be

in terms of effects in animals and anecdotal reports in humans. Because I think both your and my excitement about this might be occupying a substantial amount of the force field here. Let's do something that normally I would do in a few minutes. I'm going to ask you some very direct questions about this. And I don't hold you responsible as being like BPC, you know, spokesperson, but here you are. That's Pavlov's job. And he's dead. Are there any known adverse events

from people taking BPC? Noan and documented, adverse events where it's unrelated to contamination or something of that sort? In the literature, when it comes to the

with no adverse effects. So there's, we don't even know the LD50 of BPC, which makes it hard for

it to become an FDA proof. Maybe to find the LD50 is the dose of which would kill 50% of the animals if it was administered to them. So we don't even know what that is. And that's actually an important

“number as, you know, barbaric as it sounds to determine for any drug. What's the LD50 for caffeine?”

What's the LD50 for aspirin? What's the LD50? This is every drug you take folks on or off the counter, you know, a prescription or non-prescription has gone through LD50, justing an animals. To be a clinician to prescribe, as we need to know what that is, which limits us. Now, there was two very small phase one in phase two trials on rectal BPC animals in the early 2000s from that same Croatian group. So that's the big concern to BPC all of the data comes from one group.

So people can be skeptical. There's a couple of Chinese groups that have also replicated some of their work, but those groups wanted to try to treat ulcerative colitis. It's a very, you know, miserable condition of where they mean some attacks, the lining of the gut in multiple spots. And they use animals at BPC up to like 80 milligrams, which is much more than people would take most people are injecting micrograms. Yes, 100 or 200 micrograms per day or something. Yeah,

maybe more, but yeah, you're talking about 80 milligrams. Yeah, rectal animals. They did a phase one in phase two trial. They're doing this daily or they do it once. They did it for a few weeks. And then they re-measured that it was possible controlled. The data is not available. The

“abstracts are only available. So that that's what also gives us some pause. We're going to,”

you know, push that forward, especially when the legal discussions are happening here in the next few months on BPC. The phase one trial showed no adverse effects. They didn't even have BPC in the

systemic system too. That's a key point to know that orally administered or rectally administered

BPC doesn't seem to go systemic. Maybe you're following the little bit more specifically. If you take aspirin and then you measure blood aspirin levels, you'll notice the levels go up. When they measured BPC levels, at least one-five-seven levels, in these individuals, they didn't find it in the blood. So either it was broken down very quickly or stayed locally to the lining of the gas or tissues. That raises a question for me. Let's say somebody doesn't quote unquote take

any BPC-157 by NMR or otherwise. If I were to just draw your blood right now, there's BPC-157 in there in the bigger approach. The bigger the bigger BPC protein, I don't know. You wouldn't find it circulating, or is it, or is it, or is it content? Or is it restricted to the, you know, how that data? That's incredible, right? Because we're talking about these effects all over the body. We don't even know if it leaves the gut. No. Well, the injectables are going to go systemic.

And most people are going to take, if they're decided to do this, they're going to take an oral or an injectable. There are, they're going to inject local to the injury, as they can, or in an entrepreneurial. So they found fragments of the 15, like there's a paper in 2024 that looked at this, and they could figure out if somebody had BPC administered for doping reasons, because it's on the water list now. So they could figure out if someone had taken BPC.

God, we don't know. Like we don't, we need to know the dynamics. We don't know where it goes, how it goes. And we don't know the results in terms of what those 80 milligrams, nms of BPC did for the colitis. In the phase one trial, it was just a safety. There was no adverse effects. In the phase two trial, it was very small, like 40 patients. There was at least a positive signal on, on those sort of colitis. And this was done in the United States, or this

“increased. Okay. So to be quite direct, on the one hand, you have groups who I think are mostly”

well-intentioned, saying, "Hey, 80 milligrams of BPC by way of Enema did not cause any adverse events." And that's the phase one that you described. If we believe they're dead on the opposite side, many people, especially in the United States, and Northern Europe, where the regulations tend to be similar-ish. Right? Let's compare to elsewhere in the world. Would say, "Well, yeah, but that study was in Croatia." Now, I have many creation friends. That's not a knock on Croatia. Why would it be

that the clinical trials in Croatia would hold less weight? This is a dicey area, but I think it's important because you'll hear this. Oh, those are Chinese peptides. Those are Russian studies. Like, yeah, and, you know, I mean, to me, the question is, was it good science? Was it done carefully? Would it pass a muster for a phase one in the United States? That's a good question. The groups seem to be very robust, and they do really good, randomized, controlled, double-blind placebo-controlled

trials. I think we're very United States' centric. We view ourselves as the premier of science, and we are the premier science. So people kind of trust that more, and there may be, you know, perverse incentives when it comes to different government bodies. Yeah. And, like, you know, Soviet era research that might be, you know, pro-fabrication when it comes to certain compounds that makes people hesitant. Because there's a lot of, like, the Soviet era compounds that are not

peptides or some of them are peptides that are fantastic. They sound amazing, but when they get tested,

maybe they're not as potent as the Soviet data would suggest. I always thought that the Russian

stuff was like the really potent stuff that they didn't want anyone else to know about. That is all kind of way. It goes the other way. Right. You could go both ways. I mean, but they were more interested in performance. They wanted better astronauts, better Olympians, better soldiers. We care more about, you know, a profit drug model that gets people on a subscription for the

United States. Like, if I wanted to go online and buy BPC-157, I can do it, right? Legal, legally. For a research purpose is only. I thought now under the new regulations recently passed that you can get it from a compounding pharmacy or technically not just yet. Okay. And depends on

medical boards to break it down. BPC-157 never got FDA approved. Right. So it gets into these compounding

pharmacy lists. There's a category one, two and three. Category one means the FDA thinks like, hey, this is not an approved drug, but we're okay with you compounding this and you're okay to push that forward. Category two is like, do not compound. In late 2024, BPC-157, and I'm in 20 other peptides, got moved to this category two list. Since about 2017 to 2024, people have been prescribing BPC in these alternative medicine anti-aging practices. It gets removed from that list.

Of course, you know, compounding pharmacies, re-delabelate as PDA, put a deck of peptide to originate, but it's the same thing. It's the same exactly. Really? Yes. One of them will be an acetate, one of them will be an originate, but the PDA is BPC-157. Because there are many, many people selling compounded, Penta-deca peptide. Penta-deca peptide, PDA, did I mispronounce it? Yeah, Penta-deca

“peptide originate. That's the originate. Okay. I think the acetate one is the one that's on”

the category two list. Now, just in April of this year, they got removed from the category two

list, and it's not yet on the category one list, which would allow physicians to prescribe it through compounding pharmacies. Now, but they can prescribe the PDA version. People are prescribed in PDA. Yes. Now, state medical boards view that very differently. Like, I got a letter from one of the licensed in many states. One of these states reached out to me is like, you could not prescribe not me directly. Like, the general public of people in that state said, you could not prescribe

non-FDA approved peptides. No matter what. So, there's controversy there. Even if the FDA says, okay, we're okay with you prescribing it. Is your medical board in that state? It's going to be okay with state by state by state loss. What about with telehealth? So, somebody's on the east coast in the state that allows them to write a script for, let's just call BPC, because there's

effectively what it is over this other thing. Again, I'll wriggle through the regulation. Can they

“send that to California or to Wisconsin or someplace else if the patient is there?”

The telehealth laws go into fact where the patient is. And so, if let's say in California, it's not allowed to have BPC according to the state board of pharmacy, wherever bands that, even if you're in New York doctor that's licensed in California, that would be against the California medical board and they would ask you if they found out to stand in front of them. Now, our board's cracking down on this, not really. There's a couple of states that are cracking

down on people and people know to avoid those states, but it's going to be very dicey over the next few years. Okay, a couple of questions. Anic data. We don't want to place too much on it, but the big kind of rumor out there that picked up my years a few years ago was when I heard that some athlete before the summer Olympics, this was two summer Olympics ago, from Eastern Europe, had a complete Achilles transaction, not just a terror or a poll, but when we think about

nerves and tendons, we think like complete cut the whole way through. And the rumor was they took BPC-157 locally injected for a few months, and they podiumed in the Olympics. They still got a medal. That was the story that kind of got out there that I feel kind of catalyzed this moving a BPC out of these niche communities and started it toward the public awareness that leads to you sitting here today. I'm on the other thing. Yeah, but we also, you have met a lot of other

“knowledge, but we're restricting to BPC now. So do we have verification of that story? No, I think”

that story was hearsay. I don't know if they wanted to reveal what they actually did. I don't think they only did BPC-157, they stupidity did. They should have, you know, all the best and latest greatest treatments, whether exomes themselves, other peptides, anything that wasn't banned. And by the way, I should say BPC-157 was not on the band substance as listed at that time. It was so unknown. Just like there are compounds right now that athletes are using and not just in the enhanced case in

preparation for the Olympics. I'm not saying they're all doping, but it's a common practice that athletes will forage into things that can help them that are not yet on the band's substances. And the good luck proving that BPC was injected, you know, we could go. Because about a time the peptides already gone out of your system. Or at least we think based on the farm clinics that we understand now. That story was run with from the research community that used as a marketing tool

to sell more BPC-157. Because what happened in the field is the GOP-1's come online late 2021-122 that went through with Osambake and Wego via the FD approval for weight loss. There's not enough of a supply from the traditional pharmaceutical versions of the GOP-1's. So people start looking elsewhere to get their weight loss drugs. I know people that would drive down Mexico would pick up pens. Because the pharmacy in the United States would cost $1,500 for an Osambake pen,

pharmacy in Mexico, one hour drive, same drug, same exact drug. How much relative go in 50 versus $1,500? So 10x. And this is the thing that Trump has been very vocal about, like that we're getting

by the way for a lot of these drugs. Now, that time there was a shortage of semi-glutide

“and then eventually through Zepatide. So the compound pharmacy game shifted into making these drugs,”

compounded versions. So they're not the FDA-approved versions. But when there's a shortage of a medication, the compounders are allowed to make these drugs to meet the shortage. And in fact, the FDA was reaching out to these people telling them to do it like programs, stocking in last week at the enhanced games. He was like, yeah, the FDA told us to make this stuff and then they're getting us in trouble. This is Brigham Bueller who runs ways to well and ran a pharmacy for a long time, compounding.

Yeah, we're actually met in person. One of the best ones. Yeah, it's not an ad for pharmacies. We have no business relationship. So if there's a shortage, compounding pharmacies can jump in the game. Yes, and they did and they jumped in very hard. On the GLPs, yes, and they made a lot of money. Off the GLP ones. Look, this was billions of dollars being made. Were they selling them for less than standard formal facilities? They were less than the Ozenbick pens. Unfortunately,

what would happen is the provider had the discretion on the price. So all of these providers also were making a lot of money. Who's the code and code provider? The physician, the physician,

“or the NP, or the PA? He takes the difference. The clinician, which is, I don't think it's legal in”

most states. Wait a second. So yeah, I wanted to take a Wigovie. Yes. And there's a shortage. I can't

get it from who's the the big manufacturer in the North. Nobody knows. Nobody knows doesn't have enough. Yeah. My doctor says listen, you need this. Yes. And I say how much is it? And they say, well, 1,500, 1,500 dollars. But it turns out the compounding pharmacy through a different doctor, a more benevolent doctor. There you go. Could have prescribed it to me for, I could get for maybe $300. In the case where I'm paying 1,500, it's going to my physician unbeknownst to me. I don't,

I say, I'm cloaked from the process. If you're getting the the no of an artist's pen, the physician's not involved. Sure. And if I'm drifted towards a compounding version. So the most of the times when it comes to compound pharmacies, which I don't think is a, is a good practice. The clinician gets a price from the pharmacy. So the pharmacy is like, hey, a file of semi-glutide costs 150 bucks. Mm-hmm. This clinician can now sell that file to the patient sell. It's really up. There's

charging an administrative fee. All right. It's not a sale because technically you get sell medications. Like that. They will sell it to you for $200 or $100. Okay. If I want to ask my physician, how much are you getting the drug for from, because I know which pharmacy it's going to come from.

“Yeah, because I'm coming about says, yeah, upstate or tailor makers, what's Brigham's pharmacy?”

Revive. Revive. Revive. It's coming from Revive. What are you paying for this from Revive? Yep. And then what are you going to charge me? Yes. And I can assume the difference is going to my clinician. It's going to the clinician. All right. Sorry, clinicians. Yeah. The game is up. Patients are now going to ask, and you have every right to ask as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, because it was what's going to happen with the BBC and all these other peptides moving,

is there's going to be telehealth platforms on every web, on every corner now. They're going to be like, hey, BBC, 199, BBC, 299. And they're going to like check out, and there's going to be a doctor somewhere in a room that's going to stamp the prescription. But it's just the, you know, e-commerce. It supplements with that with the stamp of the doctor, which is not good medical care at all. Okay. To balance this a bit,

the route that many people have gone for about a decade now, but primarily in the last three to five years was to go to these for research purposes only. What we would call gray market. Yes. Let's just name names because they're out of business now. Anyway, they shuddered themselves, peptide sciences, till a few years ago, you could go on there, could buy pretty much any peptide. It would say four research purposes only, not for animal or human use. Yes.

And then they find that many times. And when you paid them, you would have to Venmo them or you could do it through Zell. Yes. But they would ask that you not send it to a peptide sciences account. Yes. It was like some random name and the names kept changing. So everyone knew they were in on something like this. By the way, I want to be very clear. I ended up getting these things, right? I was too frightened to take them. Later,

I have taken BPC. I've tried it. I don't take it currently, but I've tried it through a compounding pharmacy. So I just want to be very clear what that experience was about. Yes. So eventually, they actually got payment processors. Like this market evolved with the design. Okay. There's

maybe, I'd say $5, $10 billion on gray market peptides being spent in the United States in

2025. And that's going to grow this year. So here's my question. Standard pharma. We know goes through of all the things we're talking about the most stringent process. You may hate pharma folks or whatever. That's your right. But the stuff that you get that's non-genyric from Novinos from Illinois, you can be certain based on the product packaging that it's as clean as it gets. Yeah. As pure as it gets. That's right. Compounding pharmacies are a mix. It depends on the compounding

pharmacy. Do we know that gray market peptides had problems? Because there are people out there right now who are certainly not physicians. People like Robert Breedlove who's best known for like his work in crypto who's also now like very open about the fact that he's taken all these peptides and and abolished and things. I heard him online the other day saying, literally that he's tested the gray market for research purposes only peptides and compared them to the compounding

but many people are taking that sort of evidence and saying, oh, I'll just get from gray market

“sources. As a physician, what is your stance on this? So the API for all these active pharmaceutical”

ingredients comes from China. There are no such things that America made peptides. It gets finished here. So the API are all from China. Everything's from China. The raw materials, the raw materials, like the semi-glutide, you're getting from a compounding pharmacy or a research peptide website, right, it turns out included. Come some China and then gets either the raw material gets, you know, packaged here. In the raw materials or synthesized compound. Because there's a big difference between

getting like the raw materials for something and getting the thing. The synthesized semi-glutide gets made in China. It'd be very expensive to make it here. There are people starting to look at that because that's the next thing in the arms race to make American peptides. So they're all

Chinese peptides. Everything's Chinese peptides. There's no Guatemalan peptides. There's no China's

the best at it at doing it. Now, the compounding pharmacies vary in grading. Some of them are really good. They do all the testing, sterility. They have very good quality control. So you get a good product. But they usually have to compound it with something else to get by the regulations, like a ladle and a B12 or a B6 to say like the patient had nausea from the traditional semi-glutide. We can compound them with B12 or B6 to get around the nausea. And that's a meat-cipation rule.

Because there's two ways to get compounded medications. There's a shortage. Or there's a unique need that the patient has. Do we know that compounding with something else actually deals with the nausea or is that just a slight amount? It might help some people. Got it. And exactly people will say that they respond better to the pens, like the actual farm repens than to the compounded

stuff. The research stuff is all over the place. Like some of it could be better than compounded

stuff. It could be the wrong substance. Like there's a guy went viral on Twitter a few weeks ago. He got ready to try it. He started getting darker. He's like, "I don't think I'm injecting ready to get into it." Yes. He was injecting malentente. He was injecting malentente too. It folks I realized that we're going places that not even I predicted we would go. But this is super informative. So all of the raw materials are coming from the same source. Yes. Then they're

getting filtered into these different, let's just call them stringency bins. Yes. Standard farmer, quote unquote, yeah, farmer. Yeah. Being the most stringent. Yes. Some of the raw materials are

“overseas. Like I think Lily's opening some China factory. So that's here. Okay. Some are going into”

compounding pharmacies. And compounding pharmacies, I think it's fair to say, have varying levels of stringency. That's right. Some are going to be excellent. Some are good. Some are going to be allowcy. Yes. Right. Yeah. Okay. The quote unquote gray market peptides. The ones where it's quote unquote for research purposes only. But I made the joke on X a few weeks ago. Like how many of you are running experiments and you're not on animals. Where are you doing self-culture at home?

Like come on. I mean, I know it's involved in doing self-culture. You're not doing this at home. So those presumably also come in anywhere from excellent to dreadful. Yes. But we don't know which are which. Nope. We don't know that and pass the batch. That's the big problem. Okay. So it is risky to get research places. I mean, like the majority of way people are consuming peptides. Unfortunately, we should just because of the move in 2024 to get these from the category one to the category two

list and make them banned quote unquote. That opened up this gray market zone. Like the gray market existed for the last 15, 20 years. Bodybuilders would have anecdotes about BPC-157. They'd inject it post spots for different injuries. Nobody really cared about it. It was with the GLP ones and then the banning of the peptides plus this anti-medicine kick that's been happening all over the last five years. Yes, it's the pandemic that people are like, you know what? I want to

inject this because it gives them a sense of autonomy or they feel like they're broken-ended it. Like I said the best job in 2025 was to be a peptide affiliate. People made my yearly salary in a month selling peptides illegally on TikToks. And I will say because for people that think it's just bro science, it's also gal science. I will tell you, I don't even know this term. So when he's come up with a better term, my understanding and not from Reddit is that more than half

of the peptide market is female. That's right. There's this perception that it's like only guys who like to lift weights and want to be jacked and jacked and tanned or whatever they say, you know, no. Especially when we start getting into things like GHK you copper, we start talking about things where collagen and skin rejuvenation, there's a big peptide market in towards women. I actually think in the long run it's going to exceed at least financially. It will peptide market

“in men. I think it already has because like soccer moms become like affiliates, like you know”

am way and herb life was the big thing 20 years ago. Now soccer moms just do peptide affiliates. Where are they getting their peptides? Research is great. Yeah, all great. We already know that they're not recommended. What about black market? What would be considered black market is like you bought it directly from China. Like it's very cheap. Like a viral BPC cost five bucks to make. Like now someone will sell it to you for $199 plus the premium wear. But black market is either like

claims they synthesize it in their bathtub like just like the underground lag gear like all those steroids that are in the 90s and the 2000s. It's like who knows what that is. What's so interesting to me is with steroids it went from bodybuilding community to eventually formal replacement. It was like TRT or what I call TRT plus because a lot of guys are taking a lot more than that. Some are taking less, some are most are taking more, some are taking what they're prescribed.

And then HRT has become very popular in women. So now HRT is kind of like a thing that

it's not like, oh my goodness, like someone's always taking estrogen and placement or testosterone.

It's not a big deal. No. Peptides is different because it came the on the big explosion in this came through the GLPs. And I would argue, I'd love your opinion on this, why so many people are now peptide curious is because people because of the GLPs are now also very comfortable injecting themselves. Like five years ago, if you're like, you're going to inject yourself. People are like, oh my god, then they realize it's like this little tiny pin. It hurts less than a

you know, texts in the mosquito bite. People are doing other skin and like, you know, and somebody's, you know, your girlfriend or wife is doing it. If it's nothing and you know it's like heroin addicts or diabetics. Right. You're not going to intervene. Yeah. So that change. Yeah, that destigmatize it. Now to be fair, I want to touch on the question about adverse events again. Yep. We're going to spend a couple of minutes talking about some incredible things that we've seen and

heard about BPC-157 in terms of its positive effects. The concern I've always had was the NGO

genesis, the growth of vasculature. If somebody happens to have a little tumors, what will eventually become a tumor sitting on their liver or in their gut or in their pancreas, in theory, it could vasculerize that tumor and cause it to grow more quickly. Is there any evidence that that actually happened? I want to be very clear. I'm not loading this question because it sounds like I'm kind of like leading the witness when I say that. I want to know. Yeah. I'm not currently taking BPC-157

unfortunately, I don't have an injury at the moment. So that would be the only condition which I'd take it unless you tell me there are other reasons. But I don't want to give myself that risk,

“that risk. And I think most people don't want to give themselves that risk. So what is the”

realistic risk based on observations in humans or animals? Have we ever seen tumors grow more more? For example, most compounds, if they're, you know, carcinogenic, we will see that signature in the animals. Like, you know, with Carter in GW was a drug. It was very promising because it had you know, diabetic implications for metabolism. And now it's a bodybuilder drug that is for more cardio. There's this cardering. GW. You might have seen it on the red it's. Okay. And there's

farmers, but people use it for stay out of red. Yeah. Good. Yeah. I increase your cardio capacity. So it's been on the water list of course. But it had promised for student diabetics because it changed the metabolism in the liver. It had a signal of cancer in animal data so that whole thing was scrapped. There is no signal from the animal literature on BPC157 for cancers. Now that all that literature comes from one group. So we have to be very careful. It's that one creation group

that tells you that that's it's a safe thing in the world. All the animal data come from one group. All of it. Interesting. Almost all of it. Very few, like, a couple of Chinese studies on

“on BPC157. Now they're starting to become more interested. Like, I think it's a face to trial on hamstrings”

happening here in the United States. Really. Yeah. A human. Yes, face to. Yes. We talked to a group at an orthopedic group somewhere in the East Coast. They wanted to do a BPC trial so that we consulted with them to kind of rate. Yeah. So it's going to happen. Especially if it moves to this category one list, people can be prescribed it. At least we can get like a face for trial where it's being prescribed and we can see what's happening to the people as they're getting it. And

beginning to aggregate all this anecdata into one place ideally and report on it. So that's under the work on in the in the background. Is that something you personally are supposed to say? We're working on, on aggregating all those all this data together. Great. Into anyone and E1, that's study to put it all together because it's all aggregate exists but like put it together somewhere, at least we can see what the signals are. For example, on Reddit you'll find signals of

hematomas getting worse, which makes sense with the with the Vegef pathway. I've heard this. So a friend and physician who is I would say peptide curious to slash positive told me that when he takes BPC157 for, you know, a shoulder, a knee or whatever that angioma is on his face on the sort of spider web angiomas, not the formal term for give me germs, but get worse. Yes,

“that's his personal observation. I think a lot of people don't want that. No make sense though”

if it's promoting angiogenesis. Based on the mechanism, it does make sense. Now BPC157 is not a uniform and a pre-regulator in some models, it decreases Vegef in a melanoma model, a cell cell line. So it might be potentially anti-cancer, but we need to test. We don't know. And that that was just what's really unfortunate about this compound. It's very promising and has all this cool literature in animals, and we just don't know what it comes just from one animal. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. I don't think we'd love to know because like if it does work, I could see a million use cases in ICU, whether we could use, you know, BPC157 to really help people out, especially

during the critical illness, because like in ICU, people get gastric ulcers. Like if we knew

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“When is there going to be a formal randomized control trial on BPC and who holds the patent?”

There's multiple patents on BPC, one time seven, depending on which salt they're in. The patent has been passed around a couple of times, to three different places. Unfortunately, the company that had the patent under the pleva got acquired by Tava. Tava is this generic pharmaceutical company, and they make them out of all. They're making tons of money making out of all. They don't be to care about BPC-1-57, so they have one of the patents. The other patent expires in like 10 years.

I think Cycric still has it. Dr. Cycric is the guy behind BPC-1-57. He's in Croatia. He's in Croatia. Yeah. Would Tava sell the patent? I'm sure they would. Someone read an offer.

The problem is, I don't see the purpose of even having the patent because you can add on one chain to the amino acid.

This is the problem with peptides. This is what Luli Luli Luli is coming into when it comes to making a retto. Is that patent loss for peptides kind of suck? Because you can add on one amino acid. You can modify one thing on it, and suddenly it's a different compound. This is true for other pharmaceuticals. I'm familiar with some of the ketamine and i-begane trials. And there's a company that took i-begane and basically added a magnesium component to it and you can make that a completely new drug.

“Exactly. I'm not saying that it doesn't work. I think they have a good rationale for doing that,”

but so this game of sort of protecting patents and plus millions of people already use BPC-1-57 through research, use only websites. I think it's a millions is fair. But now, how do you really let back? It's already the cats out of the bag. There's no financial incentive to run the giant study. Unless we crowdfunded it as peptide curious people. Within the category of interesting anecdotal data. Yeah. And in your role as a physician, I realize you're not suggesting these things,

but you have a different picture of this stuff at the level of mechanism and your clinician that works with, you know, it truly FDA approved drugs. And you're, well, once you just share with folks, I said it in the introduction, but internal medicine means that you spend your days what? But I'm on the, on the wards of the hospital, I mean, patients from the ER to the floor to the ICU, managing very complex disease ranging from, you know, a simple pneumonia to a coronary artery by

passed patient. So yeah, that whole spectrum. Okay. So that lens applied to this as much as one can. Would you say that like, of the reports that you heard directly from people you trust and for people that who are not incentivized to say these things? Like, oh, you know, it made me happier. You know, their skin looked better. All the things that one can find in it within affiliate code

“attach to it of those. What do you think are the most interesting potentially valid claims?”

And I asked that because if we were going to fund a clinical trial, we need to pick an end point or a couple of end point. Is it going to be recovery from injury? If so, what kinds of injuries is it going to be the gastric stuff? Is it mood interaction with dopamine receptors? I mean, I've heard so many different things. If we had a chunk of money, we're going to design a study and have someone else do it. So it's truly independent. Like, what are the top three to five outcomes that you heard that you have a good

feeling? There's going to go something there. Yep. And then we narrow it down to maybe one or two for sake of the study. What are those five? I would say to complete the phase one, phase two on the ulcer of the lettuce, do that phase three trial on proving that it has benefits for ulcer of the lettuce. And I don't think we'd need to use an animal. We could probably have an encapsulated version that releases deeper into the intestines. I think it fixed the gut. It's the ulcered gut. Yes.

The logical habit randomized to BPC-157 oral capsules versus pentopresol. And you're basing this

on the fact that you've seen and heard that people who have gird, get better feel better when they take it. Okay. And it could be placebo. Yes. I mean, when I travel, I have a bottle of BPC orally. Why is that? I don't get, you know, travelers diarrhea or, you know, when I, you know, exotic foods on in random places, my friends all get sick and I tap not to anecdot, right?

“But that's interesting. There seems to be some kind of gut protective effects. And that's what”

they noticed in the, the, the mice literature, they would have an offending agent into the gut. And they'd noticed that there'd be protection deeper down in the, in the gastric track from that offending agent. Because if you think about it, the gut is the most vulnerable part of the body. Like, it's, it's open to the outside world. It's a tube that runs through you. You can eat something

and it can complete destroy you. So you have to have some kind of mechanisms, the prostaglandins,

the, you know, all these different hormones that are made potentially BPC one by seven is part of this robust armory that the gut has to protect itself from further injuries. What are some things outside the gut or indirect from the gut that are also compelling? So I would love to see some nearest psychiatric BPC studies when it comes to add addictions. There's enough anecdata about people talking about addictions and then they can add only to crave, insert drug here,

not recommending anyone tries that out, but for alcohol or whatever it may be. Do you think that

“is likely due to the, or speculating, but likely due to a interference with the reinforcing properties?”

Just like earlier, you said people are getting less drunk. Yeah. So people are getting less high, they can be less reactivating before saying, or is it somehow touching the craving mechanisms themselves?

It's probably touching the craving mechanism through the gut brain access. Because I don't

think it's going to systemic either. I think it's, it's locally in the gut shutting down the neurons from, from, from, if you think about it, if BPC is what they claim it is, right, and that's a big issue, if that, if you have a noxious agent going into your gut, your body has to have a mechanism to lock down your, your vital organs, right? So it's BPC part of this giant, transduction pathway to protect your vital organs, your brain, your heart, your kidneys, from further damage.

We had Dr. Gigo Borcos, who's out at Duke, who's really the world expert on these neuropod cells and the gut that signal through the notos ganglain up the vagus, notos ganglain to either promote or suppress release of dopamine to make you either approach or avoid certain food. Yeah, very, very interesting. Wow, I would be more than happy to encourage his lab, even if get funds for his lab to do something on this. What are some other categories of

interesting effects that deserve careful study? Yep. So we need to see what BPC does on the

“musculoskeletal system. Like that's what the hype is, that's where everybody is going. So as I”

looked through like what model I would look for, you just want something that's not very evangelized, but could be proved if the blood flow was good, like a tendon injury. So perhaps, you know, a bicep tricep tendon type of post-surgical outcome. So if you get your bicep tendon torn, you get a repair, you get BPC either intraoperatively or post-operatively and you see if that person heals faster. Because it's not going to magically reattach an ACL that's torn, right?

But can it further accelerate the healing from an ACL surgery so you come back in six months rather than 12 months? That's the big question. And that's what I like a lot of athletes are using BPC on 5/7 for that use. Has anyone ever done the one limb versus opposite limb control experiment? I mean, I know that people take it orally or inject it systemically like under the scanner into the muscle goes systemically in the blood stream if you apply it that way.

If you can get to the injury site, sometimes people inject locally, but it seems that the challenge is that let's say you have you know a tendonitis in one elbow and tendonitis in the other elbow, you get injection to your left elbow and not your right, but there's going to be systemic transfer. So it's hard to do that internal control experiment. Yeah, and I've had have used BPC for one injury and I've had results on a different injury. Positive results.

Oh, interesting. That my shoulder feels better even though I was doing it from elbow or whatever maybe. This would be a good time for us to you know, bracket. What we're about to say, I say this is purely anecdotal, but filtered through, I could serve myself a skeptic on many, many things, especially things that would put into my body. I'll tell a story. What's your favorite personal BPC story involving you and your body? Yeah, I tore my tricep a few

months ago. Yeah, tricep lifting with people I should have been lifting with there much stronger than I was purple from here to here. Like the pictures I posted on on X, it's brutal. I'm like, I'm going to have that surgery, the socks. I don't have time to have surgery because you're not you're in a brace for like three months and I put BPC in locally. I don't try this at home. I'm medical advised, but locally in the tissue spot with a couple of other peptides. And within three

weeks, my PT is like, what the hell are you doing? Like this is healing so fast. What I feel that fast anyways, I don't know, but that's typically a great two tricep tear with purple arm from from top to bottom. It was in grade three. It's like still extend my elbow. That's usually a three month recovery and to be back in three to four weeks was fantastic for me. Which is why I'm so

up in the grams. Yeah. A lot higher. I think personally and in some of our people we've used bigger doses. I think that's the problem. Even though that translates well from the mystata for humans, I think the dose is way higher. But people just go based on the doses that would fit in the bio to a peptide signs to the upside rather than what actually we don't have to know what the human dose is. Obviously, one five seven. So it's a lot of work to do to just figure that out.

Like when we spoke to the orthopedic group, like, yeah, we're going to start with, you know, 250 micrgrams. I'm like, I don't know if you're going to see an effect at that low of a dose. You might

“need to raise it up like that. That's what people do online. I'm like, yeah, but that's just because”

someone's peptide websites says to do that. There's no data there. But, you know, tricep

was back to normal. Amazing. That was an interesting BPC case. I've seen other injuries where BPC

didn't really help much. I can't match your story. That's a bigger result. I can just say that I had a bad trap neck pull where I couldn't turn my head. And I was like, oh, one of those and you had some BPC. So it was only, I think only 200 micrgrams and just pinned it right into the, that street talk for injected right into the kind of like upper trap issue area two days later, completely gone. Of course. I don't know what would happen. And I just waited. But it seemed eerily fast.

Yes. And then I stopped taking it. Yep. So there's a guy that, you know, and by the way, that was not great market. There's obtained through a doctor's prescription from a compounding pharmacy. Labelled BPC157, not PDA. PDA. PDA. Okay. Those are anecdotes. I've also read just to be fair. We should balance this out. Certainly on X, you know, people can say anything they want. People saying, oh, you know, I didn't feel well. I stopped taking it. Okay. Could be due to what it was dissolved in,

could be due to their own unique, you know, response could be due to bad sourcing, you know, contamination. So we don't know. But not everyone has a great result. And some of them have no result. Right. But many, many people report what can only be described as pretty astonishing, positive results. Right. That cannot be directly described to the BPC because of the placebo effect, et cetera. And I'm not saying that to protect myself, I'm saying that so that people can couch this in

the, like, how we got here. Yep. It's because of stories like this. There's two possibilities.

Either BPC is as amazing as we think it is. And it's unfortunate that millions of people don't

have access to it. Or BPC is actually either ineffective or harmful to people. And millions of people are injecting it right now by buying it through online sources. Both cases are very bad endpoints.

“One is worse than the other. We can argue with one. But that's why we need this data.”

We need people to push this forward. It's a good shout because we don't want these endpoints. Because if in 20 years we find out BPC is as good as, you know, the secret slabs says it is. Man, people are pissed off. All the, you know, toilet replacements and injuries that didn't heal. And all the athletes that maybe could have had a longer career, that would be very unfortunate. But if it's the opposite. And like, you know, every 18 year old kid in the gym will come up to me.

He's like, how am I going to check BPC? Like, where do you get it from? Well, four. I'm like, you're 18. You have all the peptides you need in you. Like, the pair by else the studies that these are young animals. Like he actually take your blood and encourage it. We had 20 wise quarry on the podcast. There was, you know, young blood is rich with these things. And no, we're not talking about harvesting blood from babies. No, no, no.

Check out the 20 wise quarry episode. We'll provide a link. I mean, what you just said about young guys coming up to you and the gym and saying, should I be taking a rum already taking BPC is, you know, we could have a whole other conversation. Maybe another time we will talk about testosterone and synthetic and things like that. I see a lot of young guys taking everyone. I don't know if it's everyone. I don't know if it's everyone. I see a lot of bad about them. Many, many people are taking

testosterone exogenously who truly don't need it and potentially permanently shutting down their fertility or causing other issues with the looks of vaccine trend. With the looks of vaccine trend, you know, they're walking around the hammers. So I just kind of think, you know, I'm sure when I was in my 20s, you know, people in their 50s were probably like, what are these kids doing? You know, and it wasn't in anything like this, but who knows? It was like baggy pants

and like, you know, and like there was a weird stuff going on like hacky sex and stuff. So not me, not me, but I'm confident that thanks to you, we've framed the history of this, which, by the way, it's fascinating. And kind of where we are now. Very, very well. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

“Thank you. I have two questions. Well, one common and one question. The common is I think there's”

a third category of problematic outcome. The one you said is this thing works spectacularly

well for a number of important problems to solve important problems. And we don't find out about it because it wasn't looked at carefully. The other is it's detrimental. There's the other one, which is we start hearing about adverse events. And it goes kind of the way of the dodo or it kind of drifts back into who you know and is it the good stuff or not the good stuff because we don't actually know whether or not the adverse outcome was due to BPC itself to misuse of BPC or to like,

you know, like the factors that it's it's dissolved in or something like that. And I think that's the most likely outcome unless we get our arms around this. And that's where you could say like the

to take progesterone or estrogen replacement therapy, perimenopausal or or menopausal or something

“for PCOS or whatever, that would be what to take for PCOS, but you get the idea where a guy decides”

in his, you know, 40s or 50s or whatever it is, okay, he's going to go on TRT. He can do it carefully. She can do it carefully and kind of knows what adverse outcomes to look for. No one's thinking, oh my god, the sesame oil that's dissolved in is possibly causing these problems. Well, some people will will be very particular on which oil their testosterone comes out. But that's in the gym coming. Yeah, yeah, totally with you and where to inject and so forth.

That aside, my concern is that it is kind of wild west-ish. Yes. And I'm not so concerned, I'll get in trouble for this, but whatever, I'm not so concerned that these actual compounds are necessarily harming people, I worry that the way they're arriving to people is harming them

and we're going to miss out on that first possibility that these are very useful. And of course,

I don't want anyone getting hurt. So here comes the question. As a physician, I realize that you are more than peptide curious, you're very peptide friendly in your own life. You know, if you have a patient who has, you know, just their gut is a mess or they're dealing with, you know, post-surgical issues. And you know, that BPC from the right source is either going to be benign or could potentially help them. What kind of position does that put you in? Yeah.

As an American board certified physician, very uncomfortable position because if I'm, you know, rounding on a patient in the words of a hospital and like, hey, you should take BPC instead of your pants out, I'll probably get my license provoked. So not a good idea. Don't do that. What about in addition to? In addition to like, if they come see me in clinic, that might be a place where we can have that discussion. We're going to see very shortly here what the FDA is going to tell us about

BPC and all these other peptides or the legality of them. If they get moved to the category one list and then the states say, okay, the FDA said so we're not going to look, we're not going to care about this. You can do what you want to do as a physician and you counsel the patient like you have

“a honest discussion with the patient. I think that's what it should be between the physician and the patient.”

Like, hey, there's a promising compound. It's not if they approved. We have minimal to know human data, but we have anic data. Are you willing to try this on yourself? And we'll monitor you. We'll have clear endpoints for that. That should be what this looks like. A very frank discussion between a physician and a patient. Now, if that patient has an adverse effect, they can go to medical board and say, okay, Dr. So and so, I'll give me BPC-157 and I had a bad effect and I would be like,

okay, you're giving them a non-FDA approved compound A for injectable. B, the problem is there's

orals that are being sold as supplements now. Like BPC-157 as an oral available supplement, because it's not a medication. It's never been approved as a medication in the United States. So what is BPC's legal status? Is it dietary available? Therefore, because if you cut up an animal and ate its stomach, you'd probably get some BPC. Why can't I just take it delivered to them? There's, I mean, the liver. There's tons of. You can go buy liver at this, like you want

“Michelin's or restaurant, not down this road, but a different road. Yeah, I mean, like Dr.”

Cavanzen identified many peptides and liver like liver gen, over gen that you'd find in your desiccate liver supplement that you're eating. It's like the biggest distributors of peptides have been these organ meat companies because each organ has a signature peptide that comes out of it. Do they get absorbed? Yes. Are they bioavailable active? Dr. Cavanzen's works, uh, suggest that it is. Dr. Vladimir Cavanzen is this Russian Soviet scientist that

gives us epitalon and thymalin and pinilion and all these Russian peptides. Dine-tripe peptides can be orally available if they're the right shape and size. They're not very well available, but they can be available. So you won't necessarily get it from the organ isolate or from the, or eating the organ. Like, like, if you eat heart, probably very rich in alkaline, yep, can my body make good use of that? I mean, there's cardiogen, which is one of the

heart peptides that that was scantly studied in the late 2000s that may be orally bioavailable.

The problem is no one's been in the work that's pretty that out. You painted this picture where

not you perhaps, but let's just say, um, another physician has the awareness that BPC157 might be useful to a patient of theirs that's dealing with a, you know, they had like an ACL tear. Sure. They're not recovering very quickly. Dr. Syslison, you're doing everything correctly. There's this new category of stuff. We don't have a lot of data on it. I'm not aware that there are any severe risks, but they could be there. So if you're willing to embrace those unknowns,

you could take X number of micrograms or milligrams per day for two weeks and see how you feel. Patient says, okay, I'm willing to do that. The physician says, okay, you want to make sure that it's real and you want to make sure that it's clean. Yep. There's no contaminants. If that physician says, you know, I can write you a script for it, and this compounding pharmacy will send it to you, and they're making money on it. A lot of people, well, the moment they hear that, they think,

oh, they're totally incentivized to do this because they're going to get a cut. But if we go back to the original farm of model, it is a little bit of a different situation, right? Because let's say Lily charges, and $1,500 for a pen of some sort of GLP, the physician who prescribes that,

pharmaceutical incentives in pharmacies. Those are real. It's flights the Hawaii for a conference. Really. So there are real incentives, even though they're not getting paid directly. Yeah, there's all

there's always incentives in any kind of business, especially a business as big as pharmaceutical.

Well, physicians are already getting paid. So I'm not saying that, but these are, these are peripheral incentives. Well, the farm is also lobby a lot of the medical schools, and they're, they're not. Gotcha. Okay. So there's a relationship there, but it's not cold hard cash. As direct as the compounding pharmacy. But in the compounding pharmacy, now this physician, hypothetical physician, could say, you know what, you can get it from this compounding pharmacy,

and it's going to be 500 bucks. The patient, we've now established, because they've heard this podcast has a right to say, what are you paying for it versus what you're charging me? Yes, they might lie, they might tell you the truth, or the physician could say, you know what,

“I'm not making a dime on this. It's just, I think it might be useful to you. That physician”

is protected or not protected of something negative happens to the patient. I don't know.

Something happens to somebody is suing a compounding pharmacy or they're suing their physician. They're suing all three. That's in the physician, the compounding pharmacy, and anyone recommended it. So that's pretty scary. No malpractice provider is going to give you coverage for peptides, especially non FDA-proof peptides. Unless there's, you know, high risk. No malpractice providers that will cover you for that. Let's say somebody gets hurt taking one of the prescribed

pharmacy LPs, and they, and they, and they sue. They sue their doctor. They sue the farmer company. Depending on who had the liability. So the doctor didn't warn you that, you know, injecting 10 times a deal with my cost-panker tire, and you had a printer tire. They can claim the doctor, is that if someone has deposits, they can go out literally and say, like, hey,

literally, you didn't disclose this risk. I think now people, thanks to you, are armed with

“enough information to be able to make really good decisions about whether or not to say,”

eh, waiting for those clinical trial results, or I'll stick my toe in the pond, or I'm going to continue to learn more. But I'm going to now learn more. Thanks to you, genuinely, with a lot more understanding about how this stuff flows from website or from doctor to patient. Let's talk about Pinylon. Yeah. Pinylon is one that most people probably haven't heard of. I'll just go on record saying, I've tried it a few times or more. I don't take it regularly, but I tried it before sleep.

Yep. If I take it at the beginning of the night, it reduces my deep slow wave sleep and gives me far more RAM across the night. Not a great situation. Great situation is if I go to sleep, get my usual ration of deep sleep. If I happen to wake up in the middle of the night to use the restroom once or so, not uncommon. If I do a very small injection of Pinylon at that point, the one and a half hours of REM that I would get in the final hours of my sleep, now I'm getting three

hours. In the same amount of sleep, it's just a higher fraction of REM. Yeah. Sometimes we wake up feeling a little groggy, but it is a whole other life to get that much REM. If don't do it regularly, you know, I would say maybe three times a month, but here's the interesting thing. It improves my percentage of REM on all the other nights in between those three injections. It's on the common clean air, lingerin effects. Very cool. You're interested in Pinylon for a whole other

“set of reasons. But first of all, what is Pinylon and where does it act as it have a known receptor?”

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So Pinylon is a tripod-eyed EDR discovered by the mentioned Dr. Vladimir Cavenson. He's a Soviet researcher that comes out of this Soviet air research to make soldiers, astronauts, and pilots better. There's concern that the US might be using lasers to shoot at soldiers. So the Soviet Union tasks him with identifying peptides to defend soldiers. Their eyes, and then they're aging. Because what would happen is they'd be in a submarine for a few months,

there'd be a nuclear sub, and they'd come back to shore, and they'd be like, you know, these sub-mariners, that's called them, would look 10, 20 years older. Also happens to astronauts. Yes. So the same day as astronauts are coming back, they're aged. So Vladimir Cavenson is looking at this, and he's like, "Hey, there's got to be a solution for this." There's been literature about using extracts of other tissues, notably the Pinylon and the Thymus, from late 1800s,

till this 1970s point, they were starting our story, and he starts grounding up these extracts and injecting it into these people, and then undoing a lot of these aging effects through Pinylon extracts and Thymus extracts. Because what are these soldiers have? They had very bad circadian rhythmicity. So they can't look closely properly. They had terrible immunity. They'd get sick off-hand. They'd have autoimmune problems, all these conditions that come with it,

and then they were able to undo this using these organ extracts. So Vladimir Cavenson takes it a step further. He looks like, "Hey, what's causing this effect in these tissues?" Like, people have been injecting Pinylon's in different research models, or taking out Pinylon's from rats from the 1800s onwards. He finds peptides in these extracts. He's like, "How? I wonder these effects are from the peptides, not from the gland itself." So then he sequences from the Pinylon

epithelon, and from the Thymus gland, a couple of different peptides, if I want Thymogen, Christogen, but you'll be hearing about in the next few years. That on their own, do a lot of the effects that the whole extract would do. Now, you're talking about epithelon,

Even though everyone... No, I think it's called that because there's, as far as I understand,

“please correct me, and wrong there are animal data suggesting that Pinylon can help either regenerate,”

or enhance the general functioning of Pinylon sites. So it's having an effect on the Pinylon. When you take culture of Pinylon, yeah, that's like a piece I gland, you put in a dish, and you associate the cells, or keep it at the little piece. Then you give it Pinylon, and seems to improve the timing and perhaps even the amount of melatonin output from the Pinylon, these kinds of things. So epithelon does that. So it's a big confusion. I don't know why

he named them the way he named them. If anyone knows, please let us know. But epithelon is from the Pinylon comes from a ground-up brain extract called Cortexin. And brain has Pinylon it. Yeah, but it was the Cortexin, specifically, not in all the sub-local regions.

So he's not the sub-partital regions, that's reassured. So if I recount and said,

identify, he makes a drug in Russia that's called epithelamin, which is the Pinylon extract, and had great effects on circadian rhythmicity. I'm a infectious rich with melatonin, but obviously giving people melatonin. But also you apply the enzyme that creates melatonin from serotonin to anesthetol serotonin to melatonin. So like, when he gave it to young monkeys, the monkeys had no effect. But he gave it to age monkeys that have decreased melatonin.

And you know, from puberty onwards, your melatonin levels dramatically decreased. He was able to restore melatonin production in these age animals and eventually re-replicated it on humans. I want to talk about fineness because it's fascinating and you're truly a versed in this. But before we do that, Pinylon comes from the Cortexin, not the Pinylon, that's annoying. Yes, very annoying. Maybe we'll just rename it today. I'll let you do the rename.

Well, we'll call it EDR. EDR. That's a three amino acid sequence. Great. We'll call it EDR, so people don't get confused. What are some of the known effects? Or am I just imagining this remin crease? Because I can't change what's happening to me during sleep. That will be an amazing placebo effect. And the reason I say amazing is there are many things that one can do to improve the amount of slow-wave deep sleep, not even too close to bed

time during the exercise early in the day, et cetera, et cetera. Very hard to increase remin, except by heating your sleep environment in the last third of your night. And maybe some alpha GPC in the late day can bump it up a bit. Or you can rem to drive yourself. Or you can smoke cannabis for 10 years then quit and then you'll get a lot of rem because you got no rem for 10 years. Do not recommend that protocol. But for me it was just striking. So why would EDR? Try

peptide with no receptor? Right. Previously called Pinylon, but from here here forward EDR, why would that have this effect on REM sleep? Yep. And it actually searched through all of

literature from Calvins. And he never mentions REM sleep once in his studies. He studied Pinylon

quite extensively on different neuronal, tissue extracts, animal studies, even in athletes. And never mentions the REM sleep. They weren't having they didn't have loops in the 1970s and Soviet Union. What? They didn't have an age sleep. Yeah, kidding me. They didn't have sleep trackers in the 1970s. Right. When it came to these, so there was no reports on that. But what seems to be happening wasn't, let's see, what is this Pinylon's EDR? It's a tripe peptide that meets the groove of the

“DNA of different key regions and helps the promoter region be exposed so that DNA transduction can”

happen. Translation transcription. So you had turning on genetic programs? Yes, actually a little bit like a transcription factor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Almost like that. Or maybe a assisting transcription factors in accessing the DNA in the right places. So Pinylon in one sentence, it's leading to better brain metabolism through modulating all of these different pathways. For example, GDF11, sod1, sod2, iris, and ppr alpha, ppr gamma. So it seems to be happening.

So he made Pinylon as an anti stress cognitive performance compound. And it was available early in like Kazakhstan. So many days I'm taking it before sleep. I should be taking in the morning. Yes. So if you take a high enough dose, there is sedation front. Okay. If you take in the morning or pre-hit workout, you get quite an interesting effect. So he studied this compound on athletes and he would have him do the training session and go to exhaustion and then do a test afterwards.

And then there's two groups Pinylon and the placebo. The Pinylon group could keep the performance up despite being maximum exhausted from the training. I feel like such a dummy. Here I am having

“like these elaborate dreams. I don't really remember a care about. And when I could be actually”

thinking better during the day. Yeah. So a lot of people report less brain fog, you know, better thinking. The friend that has a nine-figure company has all of his employees on Pinylon. They're taking in the morning. In the morning. Or a night, depending on the dose issues, the work we're recommending. Orally, people will take anywhere between, you know, half a milligrams, up to three milligrams is what people settle in. The cabins and ones that

come from Russia are like 200 micrograms. Some people are injecting it. Some people are injecting it. It goes to stomach. It goes to stomach. It's orally available through these latin pp transporters. Crosses the blood brain barrier. Most likely yes. Okay. Because it's coming from cortex. But yes, otherwise the way you're describing it, we're putting no one's infusing into the brain. No one's

Have you tried it? I'm going to took some last night. But okay. At night. Yeah. So I will take larger doses. Just if I want to get good sleep, I'll describe as 8krem. Some people it will

cause them to have a little bit of awakening. At first, that may be why your deep sleep is going away.

I'll say this if I take half of what was recommended. Yeah. I'm great. Yes, it's good. I'm very sensitive to everything. Sure. Just sensitive. Yeah. If I take what was recommended, I fall very deeply asleep. I have elaborate dreams that I wake up. Yeah. And I couldn't tell if that was a disruption in sleep architecture. Yeah. I just found an ingredient. I'm only doing this three times per month. Sure. Maximum. And I often forget and then it's a month and a month and a month. I was like,

"Oh, maybe I'll take a little pain in your mouth." Yeah. Wow. This is wild. And then I stop taking it. Because I don't know about it. Yeah. Now, I know it's cleanly sourced because I trust the compounding form. Sure. It's coming from. But I should ask, "Are there any known risks of EDR?" So far, nothing in the Russian literature. So the caveat, Russian literature is not gold standard

American research that we love here. So there's nothing that's come up as a clear sign because what

it seems the big theory of Caventon is that as you're when you're younger, you make a lot of these peptides naturally. It's dry and tetrapeptides. And as you age, they go down in function and quantity. And by replenishing these peptides, you're restoring some aspect of youthfulness. Something similar happens in America with the GHK copper, which is another tripeptide that's technically like the collagen regulator. So getting along with the right tripeptis. In GHK copper is the collagen regulator.

But so far, the side effects we've noticed, we have the biggest anecdotal compilation of Enicles one, every day I wake up, someone says, "Hey, Pinylon did this to me. Some people have a lot of drop and blood sugar." Because it's PPRL, PPRR, Gamma. So it'll have positive metabolic effects. So that's in the keep on an eye out. And some people even had their A1C's drop.

“So that's why I have glycimics and other people of blood sugar. Yes, take extra confidence.”

And then very vivid dreams. So for some people that could be disheartening if they have like, you know, nightmares or something like that. But very, very vivid dreams as a result of a Pinylon, especially like the color and the quality of the dreams is very different than you normally expect. What seems to be that track is like, just like, you know, psychedelics change the redox state of the brain. Pinylon is doing something similar where you're getting more alert

and is during the day. Like you don't wake up with this much brain fog, at least anecdotably. You get better performance during like high intensity interval training. And then you get more REM sleep at night. Because the neurons are in a better oxidative state. Thanks to the Pinylon Alpha, Pinylon Gamma, Iris, and all these different pathways that's modulating with no clear one receptor that it's doing it to do. I'd like to take a quick break

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And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive. In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data and the data frankly, we're not all that good. But now with function, it's extremely easy and affordable. A function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year. And if you think about the information it provides, and the health challenges it helps you avoid, and the proactive things that

it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings. To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code "huberman" for a $50 credit towards your membership. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman. What about Epitalin, which turns out comes from the pineal. Yeah. I'd love your thoughts on this. I've heard, and I thought it was complete nonsense

when I first heard it, that the pineal becomes calcified as people age. The reason I thought it was

nonsense is I used to co-teach neuroanatomy when I was at UCSD before moving my lab to Stanford, where the guy named Harvey Carton, you guys can look them up. Unfortunately, he passed away,

“he was in his late 80s, and he had this incredible career as a, I think, one of the greatest”

neuroanatomists of the last hundred years. That's a good category to be in, because we have like Cahall, who's like discovered everything basically, and then the rest of neuroscientists are just kind of tinkering around with what he predicted, and then a few other neuroanatomists like

this calcification thing, because he had looked at the brains of so many different species, including

humans. He was also an M.D. by the way. And he goes, "Yeah, I don't know whether or not this calcification thing is real." And he kind of brushed it aside, and I thought, "Well, Harvey doesn't take it seriously, so I'm not going to take it seriously." But even though he was absolutely right about many many things, I think he might have missed that one, because when I go to the literature now, it's a little bit tough, because the cadavers that you looked at in medical school,

not all of them are processed on the same time long, right? It's not, thankfully, it's not a controlled science, right? These are people that generously don't know their bodies to science, right? Does our pineal calcifying, even if it does, does that somehow inhibit its ability to communicate with our other tissues? It's a big, kind of debatable thing in the pineal research. If you look

at the pineal gland Wikipedia, it's very under-developed, let's say, because it's kind of woo-hoo.

Like, when you think of pineal gland, you think of someone who's going to say, "I think neuroscientists chooses to work on the pineal gland." But it's not a very sexy thing. It sounds like someone's going to sell you crystals or something like that. It's not for now, actually. Yeah. But I think it's

“a key aspect of aging and longevity, so that's what gives us, you know, our interest in it.”

The pineal gland, it seems from cabins' work that the decrease in pineal gland function with aging is more of a physiologic than an anatomic problem. Now, I will see some classification on MRIs when we have a patient come in for a stroke or a TBI will look at the MRI. I'm okay. There's the looks like a little bit of a classification there. Maybe my neurology colleagues will disagree, but that seems to happen. But the question is,

what is actually leading to the deterioration of a melatonin synthesis? Because it decreases

quite dramatically and some people even think that might start puberty. Like if you have a pinealisist, you can have percosis puberty, like eight or nine years old. The rhythmicity in melatonin. Yes. Because a young baby, very young base, their melatonin secretion is not very rhythmic. But they're in REM, like, yeah, a lot. Yeah. A lot of their sleep is REM. It's a beautiful thing. Right?

With time, it becomes more rhythmic. Yeah. And of course, in today's day and age, with all the artificial lighting and the lack of sunlight exposure, things that you and I care a lot about. People are making themselves somewhat arithmic or face shifted. Yeah. But epithalin is somehow restoring pinealisites, is somehow enhancing function of the pineal and other tissues. Yep. So in Kevin's work,

he's found that it will increase the expression of the different clock genes. So in, like, you know, lymphocytes that he'll measure in peripheral tissues, he'll notice that the clock genes actually change. So in a more rhythmic pattern, he'll notice that morning cortisol is higher, great, which by the way, folks, I've said this in the course of all episode. You want your morning cortisol super super high. You want your evening and nighttime cortisol low. If you're

resident in medical school, just listen to what your superior said, I don't give a shit about your cortisol levels. You got to do the hard work. And then later you get to, later you get to go to bed. It's a little weird that the medical profession tortures their own by disrupting one of the primary

“anchors of health. Yep. I mean, in cognitive, I mean, I've had 28 hour shifts and that's what got me interested”

in secondary languages. But yeah, the idea was it was restoring a more circadian appropriate hormonal profile through, you know, HTH cortisol taken when any time. Because the idea with these bioregulators, unlike, you know, a GLP1 drug that you take today and have the effect for the next week, the idea from the caverns and model is that you take these and then you do a crew benefits when you're off of them. Like, you notice the pinnually on, you took pinnually on for a day or two or three

days a month and you had effects until you took the next dose. So the idea is, can you accrue benefits from these compounds as they upregulate or downregulate certain genetic pathways and in more favorable state and then keep those effects later on. So in the caverns and seminal work was it's 15 year longevity study. You got people in nursing homes, two groups, one of them got a epithelon in the form of epithelamine which is the whole pineal gland extract and then a thymus

I have a peptide called phymalin, not thymulin, there's two different peptides, a lot of people can confuse them, every peptide website can confuse them. But inject them for 15 years, like a 10 or 20 day course per year just being in the year, middle of the year and that's it. And they had a significant lower mortality when it came to cardiovascular disease, infectious risk and for cancers. So, Russian study caveat, but that would be the most interesting longevity study I've seen

done if accurate, if true, because he was able to take nursing home patients, give them peptides for very small amount of the year and yet they could benefit the rest of the year.

“Impressive. One of the things that really got me excited about epithelon, is it Thalin or Thalin?”

The Russians say epithelon instead of the way they say it, but it's spelled with the TH in okay. So, I'll say epithelon, whoever wants, you know, we're making the rules today so okay, epithelon is also ADG. Okay, that's the amino acid which for me knows. I'll say epithelon because it's easiest for me and forgive me if anyone takes offense. I took interest because in my former life running a lab

And there's some interesting papers and there I can really gauge the data, even though they're in my

second say this is a real effect or like a met effect or like a woe effect using epithelon to

combat some of the neurodegeneration in things like retinitis pigmentosa, downstream neurodegeneration in RP which is a very common, unfortunately blinding disease or even in glaucoma. Yep. I should mention that BPC157 to my knowledge hasn't been looked at extensively in terms of optic nerve repair but it absolutely should be. If someone knows those papers please put them in the comments. So I was intrigued. Yep. Like here's this molecule that somehow involved in DNA repair

and it's either maintaining or restoring some of the machinery that would otherwise definitely be lost in one of these optic nerve damage conditions that models things like glaucoma and retinitis pigmentosa stroke traumatic head injury. It's a big deal. Yep. Vision and

movement are kind of the biggies. I mean there are other things too but you know you don't want to

lose those and if you do you can get by but you need additional support obviously. So the reason it's so interesting to me is that it's getting to DNA repair as opposed to these downstream you know working on any number of vague receptor issues maybe no receptor things like and this is what gene therapies about. Yep. So do you think of Epitalin as kind of a gene therapy of sorts or do you think about it more as support for genetic machinery that has lots of downstream

“targets? Yes. I think it supports this genetic machinery. When it comes to the eyes it seems to”

be repairing some of the photoreceptors that might get damaged in a red and ice pigmentosa. Male melanopsin wasn't discovered when Cavancin was was kicking around but I would my my theory

is that Epitalin is working on melanopsin. Interesting and that it may be upregulated melanopsin levels

and then making that morning sunlight that everyone likes shouldn't be more effective because the big problem is a lot of people will tell me like Doc I did morning sunlight didn't I didn't feel effects like have you had enough darkness to regenerate melanopsin levels because we know that in animal studies five days of pure darkness dramatically increases the amount of melanopsin in the redness. This is interesting and I certainly have a lot of close close friends that are

in a position to do these studies and you know the podcast is obviously available free to everyone but we have a premium channel that funds research. Yeah. We don't talk a lot about it but we we've given a lot of money away to excellent laboratories where they're free to explore these things I'd love to see some of the studies that we're talking about today supported and by the way that's done in collaboration with donors that do a match so we could get the right people

to do the right studies with no bias toward what the preferred outcome is. In fact the scientists that we both know the right ones would try and disprove the hypothesis that any of the stuff was real and if something makes it through that filter then they would conclude its real otherwise they're

“trying to essentially knock down the the quote unquote positive outcome. Yeah and I think as a”

clinician one of the key things to people for people to remember is that we've screwed up a lot of times as clinicians but through different grotesques abuses of our trust we've done you know interventions or drugs that weren't the most efficacious for example like in the 1910s and 1940s we irradiated the thymuses of young kids to prevent cids. This was considered gold standard medicine like you have anything to do with cids. No they thought that sudden infant death they thought that the

thymus was too big and was sitting on the heart and that might be the cause so tons of these kids and I think at least 10,000 died from cancers. I think the only person who's talked about it is Spolsky has a video talking about this so we've had a lot of issues as a as a field may it be very cognizant of that and know the history of where we've been like like Vircal of the famous Vircal striad he was like pro this therapy and we all know learn about it in medical school but

no one talks about this aspect so there's a lot of grotesques abuses of medical power let's say

“if you have to be very careful in which interventions we give people and the first things like”

you know harm so while we are you know excited about these therapies we've got to be kind of careful and where we're taking people. Appreciate it wasn't where that study perfect um T up for uh no pun for the thymus yeah only about the thymus um super interesting organ yep we planned yep we all have one one more born yep by time we're what ages it mostly gone so the thymus is grown under the influence of a lot of these youthful hormones melatonin growth hormone um DHA um and then the shrunk at the

moment you hit puberty so until if i'm here the day of birth until puberty you grow this massive thymus where's it it's a it's a right above your heart right behind this the collarbone big is it it's a in in a baby it could be quite large on on the chest big is a baseball that maybe the size of half the heart let's say maybe bigger depends on on on on on on the size right now in our bodies it's gonna be a bunch of fat with a couple of different globules of thymic residue tiny tiny

tiny tiny in fact most surgeons will just remove it um when they do surgery nowadays for like open heart uh but there's you know good data from you know in general medicine that removing the thymus

people have died because of thymus removed they'll have like either higher rates of cancers or you know

“higher rates of the autoimmune diseases if they have their thymus has removed now there are thymomas”

where people have to have their thymus removed but we're talking about people that you know the surgeons going in to do a coronary artery bypass surgery is the thymus nearly innovative yes so it's getting signals from from brain vagus nerve yep so it's getting uh sorry to get technical here but since I did the episode in the vagus some people might remember there's a lot of a send the sensory information from the vagus going up to the brain there's also motor control

from the brain going down the other the vagus is two two-way stream mostly up some down is the thymus controlled by the descending is it laying in other words that's a question

something going on in our brain like stress level or sleep controlling our thymus out there's

sympathetic and parasympathetic innovation to a thymus um that dictates it's hormonal output because the thymus what what is the thymus yeah what's it's it's it's a gland that both squeeze hormones

“and develops the t-cells so your lymphatic cells are found in your bone marrow that's what they're”

made the t-cells will travel up to the thymus and get trained so they don't kill you and they don't attack your own tissue but attack a foreign invader or a cancer or whatever it may be that process is very good in youth and as you age you get more autoimmunity more cancers etc etc because the immune system is not as robust both because the thymus makes less of the hormones that train the immune cells and makes less of these immune cells themselves so when you're you know 15 you're making

10 to the eighth magnitude of these cells every single day they're called 90 of T cells

they will eventually become your CD4 and CD8 T cells as you age this number dramatically decreases and those cells will live somewhere between 10 and 15 years and that can kind of gauge when the mortality window kicks in for a lot of these different disorders when your thymus will be which is a you know minimum level of output you get a lot of these disorders like cancers heart disease autoimmunity if you put almost any disease and look at the thymus risk

associated with it it increases as the thymus function decreases there's a nature paper 226 just came out that looked at cardiovascular disease and cancer mortality and all these different metrics that they did MRIs of people and and the people that had the higher thymic scores had less mortality across every single one of these conditions but you said not challenging this but what's surprising about that very interesting result is that you said that by

time you reach your your your theories I'm in my 50s those ages our ages you there you've got just a bit of residual tissue there's just a few cells and yet it's somehow maintaining function the rate of decrease varies dramatically from person to person so we call this thymic evolution so from the moment you really start till you die your thymus is slowly shrinking that really happens in your 20s and 30s the majority of that under the the pressure of

antigen's estrogen's pyrestins and cortic steroids those are driving a lot of the shrinkage so the hormones that everyone seems to want to increase the rest of their life when that become you know active a lot during puberty actually caused thymic in evolution yes so like castration will undo some of the thymic in evolution pregnancy is a great time to include your thymus which makes sense because you don't want to be having an autoimmune attack

against the baby or against an immune attack against the baby do women's thymus disappear after pregnancy they they envelope and then will regrow during the breastfeeding period under the influences of growth hormone and prolactin so hibernating animals will have a dramatic shrinkage of the thymus during hibernation and then regrow during the feeding window is there any benefit to doing or taking something to either maintain or regenerate thymic size so there was as in

it as let's just say somebody 25 or older yeah there's a interesting study trim trial from Dr. Greg Fahey he's doing a study where he's giving a cocktail of growth hormone metformin and DHA give that for 12 months and had the thymic size increase on imaging the amount of CD4 CD8 T cells increase and the ratio of which improved and then some of the markers that would show like immune cell exhaustion like PD1 and all these different aspects of T cell dynamics and also improved

so they're trying to use growth hormone to regrow the thymus getting us directly to peptides many people who are peptide curious start asking about thymus and alpha yep is thymus and alpha a peptide that comes from the thymus yes so thankfully they named it appropriately as a time great for that yeah what is thymus and alpha do indogenously when you're not injecting it or taking it what's its normal function so thymus and alpha one is part of

“this thymic family of hormones that gets secreted as I think 21 amino acids it increases”

T cell development in thymus increases T cell proliferation outside the thymus and makes the T cells more likely to properly attack a pathogen like it's like a you know jet fuel for the for the T cells so it's like pro immune yes I've heard of people taking it when they feel run down

kind of you know peptide wild west kind of indications it was FDA proved as a daxin

“um for kids that were born without thymus or a malfunction thymus like a degenerate syndrome”

these different kind of genetical abnormalities to be used for these kids to help develop the T cells that they had that weren't in thymus because they'd have like bone marrow T cells that weren't properly developed so there was good support from thymus and alpha one for these kids I don't think that FDA proves still exists so the people are trying to you know grandfather thymus novel one into these peptide conversation um in other countries it's approved for a adjuvant therapy

for like hepatitis B hepatitis C and then different cancers so far the sepsis literature and then infectious literature is not that promising it might be like if you take antibiotics with thymus novel one you might have a quicker bounce around well what I would be interested to see is like if you you know went to nursing homes inject everybody thymus novel one in November in December would you have less flu in January in February that'd be the interesting thought experiment

both thymus novel one and thymus and beta four come out of the Goldstein lab that's the very famous lab that just had the thymus in the 70s and 80s and 90s but thymic research kind of fell out of favor the last few decades but now the sexie is the final panel I say that sort of

“tongue-in-cheek because I mean I think these are fascinating and the reason I ask if they're”

normally innovative is that you know nowadays there's a there are a lot of reasons why people choose to study one thing or the other but these um understudied glands if normally intervated then open up a lot of interesting questions about brain control behavioral stress control and the the experiments kind of write themselves if doing them still takes a lot of work interpreting them isn't no easy task either but um I think there should certainly be more work on um on the

pineal and on on the thymus so I want to make that clear that have you taken thymus novel? Okay I've used thymus alpha one when when I travel to avoid the cesspool of planes and hotels and all all these places which uh like I would say traveling and then this year on the wards

the first time I don't get flu cold whatever kind of infection I'm dosing thymus and

alpha one throughout and I didn't get sick a single time what time of day or night are you injecting twice a week uh time agnostic uh we're talking about you know 2.5 milligrams uh as a prophylactic that's not FDA-proved or yeah or that just you doing your thing I'm curious and see if it would it would work and you try to say healthy so you can uh yeah take care of patient exactly so you're willing to be your own experiment when we hear about thymus alpha we usually hear about tv500

yeah also what's tv500 and how the or the two related it's it all so while cabins is finding thymulin and it's injecting that into people the Goldstein lab finds thymus infection five which is this giant protein that has many different peptides in it thymus novel one being one of them and then thymus in beta four being the other one thymus alpha one thymus and beta four were discovered in the thymus but they're not exclusive to thymus plant that also made in other tissues thymus and beta four

seems to be uh this 43 amino acid peptide that helps in the actin cytoskeleton of cells so if you think about it mean cells have to move a lot so they have to re-organize their actin cytoskeleton quite quickly so it seems to upregulate that movement which you know the horse community for dopamine uh and other athletes have found a niche for thymus and beta four to use it as a dopey horse community yeah horse races thymus made for a very common dopey agent for the riders

or for the for the horses for the horses yes do they test the horses yeah no there's like a big dopey scandal or it comes to to horses and uh thymus I don't really test them or they're like you know what's funny uh this is a very relevant tangent occasionally someone will say hey does all this morning sunlight stuff does that work on like dogs and I go listen I hate to tell you this but like a lot of literature came from animals not necessarily dogs and

they have melanops and galean cells and they have supercosmiding it like yes yes and yes same physiology and then recently won't say who wasn't me um truly I have a friend who's uh dog was injured and the question becomes like would BPC work and you can actually say well there's a lot more animal data than uh human data talk to a couple of vets and that's well there are a lot more adventurous than you might think and I thought well listen you know now of course these are

pets there yeah I love my dog you know it's not the same as a human I am a bit of a species but

“love them tremendously um and I think the pet peptide industry is going to be in all of”

that's alright so here's the question and then we'll go right back to what we were saying before there's been so much interest in NAD men and men and NR to uprightulate NAD what NAD but there's a prolonged cavity NAD for you know one of these things that drops over uh over the lifespan although the paper last week says that it doesn't drop in blood like to land right paper I will say

which is the most stories on that claim that I called it a longevity drug I've always said that NAD

I do augment NAD using NMN it gives me more uh morning energy I will say it doesn't make my nails really thick my hair grow fast two effects I was not looking for but I like the energy effect I've never said it increases lifespan ever so um this was mentioned in the New York times in

need fact checking NAD has been kind of the thing for a lot of people who want to go beyond supplements yeah right they got beyond creatine beyond magnesium beyond what they can get you know just on Amazon or whatever but they don't want to go all the way to you know like blood cleansing and

“all this other stuff which I certainly don't do myself and I think that's uh to extremely”

least for me to teach their own when I hear about finance and alpha tb 500 bpc it occupies this kind of middle ground right yeah and so I think this is why a lot of people are saying hey I want to say I love my dog I love my cat I don't know if NAD is going to do anything for their longevity it doesn't look like it may or may not I don't know but I think a lot of people are starting to think oh you know like and here we go Pavlov and his dogs so I do think this is another

category of interest and of course we're the curators they don't get a vote they can't consent right so we have to be very thoughtful there too yep if I ask you let's say I had an aged dog and I come to you and I listen I know you're a human physician but he's getting sick a lot I don't know maybe get some thomas and alpha he's kind of creaky joint some bpc it's probably got a couple years to go and that's it would you say like well I know you're not a vet the vet newborn is going

to sue me now but I'm actually the I've relatives who are vets they are very open all right it's very open the veterinary community has been very open I inject in my previous dog with testosterone later in life and I expected the vets to come after me with pitchforks and I got calls that said we would love to prescribe this in fact we wish we could just do vasectomy zone male dogs let them keep their testosterone and then you don't have to worry about this breeding problem and you let people

train them not to hump yep no my my stress at a company pharmacy here locally that would give dogs their testosterone and it made him people love so much healthier and happier I have zero regrets

“I'm pro peptide for pets let's say I think there would be a beneficial fax we know dogs when they”

vomit they said they end up looking some of the vomit you've seen this before yes I thought that

I don't like is he trying to get peptides back from the gastric like that it's the first maybe from a

pulphlovian plant yeah so I'm like I mean into into a lane instinctively there might be something there like there they might be trying to get bpc out of that who knows but I think they would be less hesitation for people to use on animals they come from animal literature like you said we don't want to be harming these pets right but a lot of I think a lot of the the positive signals are going to come out of people giving them to their pets unfortunately there's so many brands

and now they're popping up every day given their pets peptides because beefy sea is again to be treated as a supplement when it comes to oral capsules or it's going to be treated as med like we haven't got it got that answer from the FDA RFK themselves is kind of said like oh these are supplements they're not medications so if you said that he said that we're not going to regulate them as meds because they're not meds which I don't know if they didn't see themselves it's going to

be too happy with that I mean there's a big well McCary just macro I don't ever know how progressive last name recently left so that there was a from what I understand a kind of a split

“I don't think he left because of peptide anything I think it was related to other things”

that I'm not aware of but I do think the question that you're raising is one of the most important

questions is bpc going to be taken seriously as a drug or is it more a creatine issue I mean for example I could give you a b-12 supplement you could buy that on Amazon or I could prescribe that to you but if I was to give you an injectable b-12 shot you would need a prescription for that so it's that distinction gonna apply to peptides also is the big question that no one's answered and is a you know penillon is a supplement you can find in Kazakhstan and Russia and Ukraine wherever all these different

countries over the counter in different pharmacies is a penillon available is a capsule it's available does it work as well as a capsule it's needed but it still works what are the doses dosages excuse me that people are injecting versus taking orally so when it comes to the bioregulators the epitalon penillon the cabins and literature looks at like microgram dosages from 10 to 100 micrograms of of the actual raw peptides of the peptide mixes we're talking about 10 milligrams

so 10 milligrams of you know desiccated calibrane that might give you a few hundred micrograms of penillon man desiccated calibrane makes me think yeah cuts really yako aka mad cal prior

that that's right on first patient I had on on wards and third year of medical school had

degenerate from cuts really yeah yeah it was a bad bad case under all the wards yet please folks yeah do not be consuming brains I know there's some people like oh it's got all this stuff that can help you it like please please please like these these uh these pre-on things are really serious yeah yeah it's scary yeah it's really scary yeah it's really really scary and not just from wild game but it's really scary by the way I think this set back all that research in the when

the when the when the you know the pre-on stuff happened in the early 2000s that set back a lot of these animal derived peptide research dramatically because people are like oh we don't want to touch these extracts anymore because there's thymus extracts that were like there was about you know 10 different groups in eastern Europe that came up with their own thymus peptide drug which was a poly peptide fragment with you know thymus stuff along thymus a bit of four vylon thymogen Chris like all these

of just mixing up young thymus because you don't want an old thymus somehow you want a six-month

old cow that has the giant juicy big thymus with all the healthy hormones in there they grind that up and inject that into humans with positive effects like you know hundreds of papers on that the Americans side the gold scene grew up came up with thymus infection five which has thymus half one and thymus in beta four in it also thymus in beta 10 thymus in beta nine much of different thymus in but study these two dramatically at thymus half one and thymus in beta four

the French came up with the actual main thymus hormone which is thymule in not thymule in thymule in the Russian poly peptide mix thymule is a nine amino acid peptide that is the

“marker of thymus function it also has very interesting neurological effects which I think you'll you'll find”

interesting because it modulates the what we're calling the thymus pituitary adrenal access thymus pituitary gonelaxus thymule in is this peptide that's secreted by thymus dramatically decreases with age as zinc dependent so that biology likes to use metals with different amino acid structures hemoglobin fire and GHA copper with copper thymule in is zinc dependent so it's a nine amino acid peptide in zinc inside of it to do as effects that will develop NK cells and T cells

stimulate them in response but also in the animal models not replicated in humans yet when they take out the pituitary and then inject you know ATTH or ACG the amount of thymule in sensitizes the end organ to production of the target hormone for example if you were to just give ACG alone to the animal ACG yeah ACG synthetic glutinous yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes it's binding to the is called the ACG LH receptor so they would get more testosterone produce when they got

“ACG with thymule in versus ACG alone so what you're saying is that thymus and alpha”

potentially or TB 500 or other a thymic hormones thymule in specifically okay okay okay the different effects on the on the trajectory actions so thymule in specifically can augment yes the effects of endogenous and perhaps also exogenous hormones yep interesting and it makes sense because if you're not robust when it comes to immune status because you you can think of your thymule in as high on youth low in in aged you have no

business investing in reproduction you have no business in creating a lot of corticosteroids because that gives you that you know useful energy in the morning but if you're making a lot of corticosteroids you're shrinking your thymus so it creates kind of a feedback loop negative feedback loop to prevent you from over running your system a lot of young guys will like how my immune system sucks and my testosterone's low like is there a thymus link there is the question

interesting and I I'm sure that you're the first person in the last 20 years to be talking

about this publicly and I really appreciate the york because of course you know what the thymus was don't know a lot about the biology but you've really opened people's eyes to and what it is that it goes away over time people taking thymus in alpha tb 500 in thymule in yep is this something that people would cocktail or is taking thymule in something that generally could be a good idea in your certain circumstances thymule in itself has a very short half life

the goal would be to increase endogenous production of the thymule in itself how would you do that so sufficient zinc status is necessary to make thymule in the first sign of zinc depletion before RBC zinc or serum zinc decrease is your thymule in levels tank i'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors element element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't that means the electrolytes sodium magnesium and potassium all in the

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element dot com slash huberman to claim a free element sample pack with any purchase again that's drink element dot com slash huberman to claim a free sample pack g h k u copper yeah most of the questions i get about it are from women yep i sent a little informal poll to the uh we can fall i say that's the women in my life um including siblings and things like that and almost all the

take it earlier injective i inject it locally i'm like please don't inject in your face because

“i don't as much as i'm comfortable with people giving themselves like a little sterile injection”

and you know belly or something like i get worried about non experts injecting the cells in the face and other other tissues so a lot of interest in this what is it why is it made it into this kind of um aesthetic category because i'm guessing it has a lot of other effects too but it's kind of funny how things kind of land in one region like creatine was like the muscle thing for a long time then it got some kind of like maybe it's good for cognition maybe for people the Alzheimer's

maybe women should take it to for all those reasons and more and it kind of revered back to like the muscle thing g h k c u is a tripeptide um with a copper uh ion in the middle it's glycine histidine and lysine um it's actually found in type one collagen fibers so only were type one collagen

fibers are all over your skin care and it's connected tissue so just like vitamin calves and

discovers these 40 different peptides and liver peptides brain peptides pineal peptides whatever it may be there's a American researcher Lauren Picard Dr. Lauren Picard was passed now he discovers g h k c u uh in the collagen tissue and it's like hey this might be the the fact that controls collagen synthesis and also collagen breakdown so he does a bunch of studies his work is all about this all almost all the literature comes from this one lab a common theme in peptides

unfortunately uh he discovers it and maybe the mid 70s it's um found to be very high in youth in serum levels so you'll find this in the blood of F anyone that we test uh up to like 200

“I think nanograms whatever the the unit was and then it gets down to like in the levels of the”

sixties by the age of 65 so dramatically decreases with age it's thought to be maybe what leads to the youthful appearance of young skin and with age you lose that effect so he did a bunch of trials both topically for skin for hair uh there's now injectable work being done so similar to the BPC they would you know cut brats open inject g h k copper uh in a different site and they'd get faster wound repair uh of the this skin tissue from injecting this so that's you know

it's become synonymous with bpc157 t500 Wolverine stack which is someone online just made up and that's the Wolverine stuff it's those two yeah tp500 and then you can see no I know the tp500 and bpc155 okay now people will add on g h k copper and call it the glow stack the glow stack yeah oh interesting yeah so someone has made it up in a research chemical like it in a glow Wolverine yeah yeah there's that's a big debate about whether or not

mixing those together causes you know denaturing of different peptides that's beyond this discussion

“point as g h a copper it both upregulates the synthesis side of collagen and the breakdown”

side of collagen so because when you're you're remodeling tissue if you're just rebuilding it you're you're gonna get like very pathogenic uh structures and if you're spraying down you're getting bad structures so you're doing both so the idea is does it number one have a skin effect which it seems to be the poor pickards you know compared it to to retinal and vitamin C creams and all these things with positive effects and people will anecdotally talk about like you know the

crows feet going away and topically it does good for them there was a study on hair that didn't seem too promising so it's not gonna the peptide websites try to tell you like this is better than monocidal not really maybe it could be an adjunct in a lot of patients well we'll have that success using that with some other other topical hair loss agents and now there's a Chinese group studying it for lung regeneration because a lot of connective tissue in the lungs between the

difference alveoli and there's some you know hype they are using gsh copper as a regenerative from that side how many people are trying to regenerate their lungs is for like COPD and smokers that's a big big and maybe lung covid from what I hear is a real thing lung damage from covid yeah I know some people will debate it but it seems like there are enough people walking around who were vaccinated and non-vaccine who claim that they have symptoms post covid that have

lasted a long time a.k. long covid so that might be an interesting place for them to remain peptide curious yeah and thymic atrophies is a big part of a suspect post covid yeah because any infection actually leads to we talk about the thymic evolution that happens with age there's thymic atrophy that happens after every infection the thymes kind of tricks down and then the idea is that you know recover you convalesce we had to have convalescent homes for for sick patients and then you

regenerate your thymes in the state of health and the problem modern day people are stressed out

they're at work they get sick and they get keep getting sick so they never get this this chance for

that thymic rejuvenation so then they're constantly getting hit down and they're ending up with these diseases of aging that could have maybe been augmented a military-rated may push down and had their thymes function been better in youth raise your hands yes or broccoli um I'm only half yeah I really feel like I'm in school this is so cool for me I'm truly in heaven right now if you look back at the literature on convalescing how long were people recommended to take some

time off after a colder aflu or some other effect because I think this would tell us like are we

people are being forced to go back to quickly and countries like in Scandinavia perhaps where they

“get more time yeah positive outcomes for baby and mom like yep I think it's an interesting and”

important question because our biology hasn't changed that much now in the last you know a couple thousand years in at least like after one has a cold typically people go back as soon as they deemed themselves non-infectious was it really worries me um but do you think people are getting back to work too quickly yes I mean I understand the reasons why but do you think that adding a stage of really getting back to full functioning without getting into the you know back to the gym

back to work back to everything it could be beneficial for these longevity effects right right well I mean if you think about it nothing that they do once they come back is is you know additive to healing there there's okay there are thems are are thrown off there under malluminative lights all day they're not getting sunlight they're not they're vitamin D levels are atrocious their blood exposure night is as high they're stress levels are very high they're gutter inflamed

from from eating processed hyper processed hyperpal alfoods they have obesity or the pre-diabetic

“so all these things now lead to this inflammatory state and they just got sick and their”

thymus didn't bounce back so then they get sick the next time in two or three weeks like a post pandemic a lot of my colleagues were like two I get sick three four times a winter now before I'd get sick you know once a winter so this is where the interest in phymic peptides is very elusive we have to figure out if the STPs or the PTEs are the the more interesting ones they're synthetic thymic peptides thymus now for one thymus in metaphor or thymulein

and there's purified thymic extracts there's the two different research committees that exist when it comes to thymus which one will be more advantageous the blood recovery happens and came up with the thymulein injection injectable and oral versions of that and he had positive

immune markers and he showed like CD4 cells come up and CD8 cells improve and I'll always

immune markers become a more useful state let's say but unfortunately what's happening here is we don't have phymologists like we don't have a branch of medicine that's dedicated to this aspect of immunity like there's you know allergy allergy immunologist but they focus more on you know allergy is a different agents are very severe immune diseases they're not really addressing

“the immunity of the general public and how you can boost that and I think post-pandemic a lot of”

people start to ask like hey how can I have better immunity for myself and now finally people are starting to talk about the thymus unfortunately it's been a little too late that would be great during the pandemic because we could have used these phymic you know focused interventions one to be zinc or you know thymic peptides or your purified thymic extracts to augment immunity of the population as a whole especially because doctor Evans was doing this in the 70s and Russia

even in Russia they don't really look kindly to this research the Soviet air research has been kind of push to the side and it's like more big farmer's style because it's more profitable because how many thymuses are going to inject into people and how many thymuses exist on the planet to make these different peptides from but you could inject a lot of synthetic thymus and alpha TB 500 and maybe BPC so what will bring stack plus you know yes if we can get that because

now that everyone's getting like these pungus scans in different full data MRIs we can see the thymus size I was going to ask you it can can I get some sense of my thymic size and output from a blood draw or do I have to do whole body imaging I've done whole body imaging it is somewhat costly and that's a period for people but if people can afford it I actually think it can be useful I have a number of friends including a neurosurgeon friend who said that he's some people are still alive

now because they got that scan a lot of people get scared about what they see if I wouldn't you rather be scared about what you see and be told that it's okay then not know it's there and then

have a catastrophic event we always have a patient that comes in you know car accident young 45-year-old

car accident comes in has a pancreatic mass they would have never known about have they not had that accident they get a CT scan just to check for any kind of internal bleeding they find the pancreatic mass that gets removed ends up being a malignant mass that had been weighted six months they would have you know had stage 4 pancreatic cancer in past away so that's that's the theory there's the concern about false positives and false negatives when it comes to these screening modalities like

any screening modalities not perfect so there's a big debate on whether or not to do these that will leave to people in their physicians but I've been trying to lobby them to give the a thymix score to everybody who gets one of these scans because they could see like hey can you can you see where the thymix is at because you know someone might come in you know for five germ scans over five years they did a TRT protocol or a GH protocol whatever it may be

and you could see did that improve thymix status or make it worse different infections different interventions that would be very interesting to kind of tease out on blood tests we've been trying to work with a couple different labs to figure out a thymix score the most commercially available is going to be a lymphocyte count which is like a CD4 or CD8 there's an ideal CD4 or CD8 ratio that's more youthful you don't want to have more CD8 cells in CD4 cells you don't want to have

thing that almost every single person has gotten done but no one's looked at is there lymphocyte

“to monocyte ratio on their CDC it's almost everybody's gone to CDC with diff it's a $3 lab test”

if you type in any disorder cardiovascular disease cancer diabetes and put lymphocyte monocyte ratio there's a study that will talk about how like low lymphocyte to monocyte ratio is associated with poor outcomes when it comes to that disease state so it gives you kind of a general gistalt of what's going on with the immunity because you want to high absolute lymphocyte count not too high because it's associated with like lymphomas but somewhere there hazard when you

look at the charts around 1,000 lymphocytes is what are the hazard of different cancer sites sorry to increase a young healthy person will be between a 153,000 total lymphocytes and you

want the ratio to the monocytes monocytes are different types of immune cells that are more

in inflammatory so if you have a robust amount of lymphocytes with low amount of monocytes that's just you have a more let's say ready and robust immune state so three-dollar lab tests everybody gets almost every lab testing company now checks it and no one will be to reports on it but you can kind of spread how people insert disease risk based on that score out of a hundred randomly pulled physicians who receive their license in the United States how many of them

probably know what you just described zero why not it's like rabbit holes that you kind of go now and and find out like I've been lobbying everyone hospital to look at this but it's very easy right the data right there no I look it's not like you're saying oh you got to do all this additional work you have a building sure and so no it's all there like I I started to care about the time it's post-pandemic I noticed people's lymphocytes counts were lower and I I could

notice that you know anecdotally or looking at you know small data sets like hey people had lower

lymphocytes had worse disease or like earlier like people had cancers in their third late 30s or

before it isn't like huh they all had like lower lymphocytes so I started to dig into the literature and I'm lobbying a lot of the hematologist and infectious disease doctors in my hospital to start to look at this unfortunately they they kind of are textbook it's not part of the guidelines it's it's in a space that's not pathology so it's not clear like hey if I check your lymphocytes amount of site count right now is it gonna change my management of you in the hospital today not

really it's more of a long-term look so that's where all these direct to health direct to consumer companies have an opportunity to kind of modulate the way medicines practice in the United States but if we have this metric that we can study why not use it and then like try different interventions and see what actually helps people like we've gotten sometimes peptides and that people go from like a four to one lymphocytes amount of site ratio to about an eight to one ratio

now is that significant that seems to be significant but no one's really kind of discussing it unfortunately I know who I'm putting my vote in for surgeon general and if ever there's a turnover I don't have an explored the most recent person so I'm not comment on her it's um I know they elected to not vote Casey and but so that's not a truly not a mention I haven't done

“but I think your voice should be heard foreign why don't these things I mean like more data is good”

the scientists in me just as you got the data data it could be informative take a look there's a category of peptides such as growth hormone secreticol yeah testimonial and epomerol and mk677 that we could we could do the deep dive on all those but I'll just batch those and maybe we parse them a little bit and things like melanotans sure these are to my understanding FDA approved for certain indication so they've gone through the randomized control trials for like growth hormone

secreticolks for a small stature in kids they might use it for that or for post surgical burn recovery I think that's the only HIV HIV HIV HIV HIV so the idea here that's our framework that I'm team up is that these molecules are have been explored for their known biological function in animals it's established these molecules lead to an increase in growth hormone above what would normally be secreted they do it indirectly by so they're sort of the gas pedal on that system

growth hormone secredicog cause more growth hormone to be secreted not actual growth hormone they

“vary in terms of how much they stimulate hunger don't stimulate hunger yep and on on you should take”

them if you're going to take them before sleep but but not having eaten in the last two or three hours all all that stuff we can save ourselves some time here yeah most people who are taking these things whether they get it from pharma or compounding pharmacy or gray market research purposes only or black market god forbid they're doing this because they want to lose fat gain muscle recover from exercise more quickly and look more youthful yep can we assume that those effects are real

given that they were FDA approved for other things yeah so when it comes to let's part of the effects and the different types of of compounds that exist in this category so there's the growing inside the growing agonist like in case of seven not FDA approved or available pill that makes you bleed out growth hormone like you make so much growth hormone response to that and in

you know 90 minutes of slow wave sleep and if you miss that big pulse you're going to get small

pulses throughout the day the question is is that big pulse better than small little no mini pulses throughout the day these secrety dogs will address the the broader category of something called somatopause so you've heard of menopause you've heard of maybe Andropause somatopause is this event that happened somewhere in the thirties where growth hormone production dramatically decreases so if we kind of paint a picture your pino glands aging at before puberty your thimes right after puberty

you know in your twenties and in your thirties you're having somatopause that's where your growth hormone production is decreasing you're having a they call adrenal pause where your adrenal stop making as much DHA in the different ratio of cortisol and then you're having menopause and all the other

“chronic conditions so that's like your first 50 years of your life that's what you have to expect”

the question has been and it's a big debate in the medical community is replacing growth hormone

and addressing somatopause useful because you can measure if we had your IGF1 when you're 18 and you're IGF1 when you're 30 and 50 that's going to be a dramatic decrease in that should we now replenish this IGF1 the performance will say IGF1 is important for skin and and good quality sleep and for muscle recovery and joints and all these things and those are true we know growth hormone has all these beneficial effects on that we also know growth hormone is a thime regenerative

because it stimulates the reggrowth of an aged invalued thimes gland based on Dr. Fahey's work question is is there an oncogenic signal when it comes to growth hormone does it cause cancer yes can it sorry can it promote more rapid growth of other of existing cancer yes because I don't think anyone thinks it's not a genic and that's the big debate when people like BPC causes cancer

there's no metogenic effect from BPC like smoking cigarettes smoking cigarettes you get

carcinogenic damage to the long tissue the causes cancer later on there's no direct mechanism that will link any of these peptides to a carcinogenic effect but is it you know a growth factor that could grow cancer potentially there isn't good data showing that the debate maybe like hey by boosting thime dysfunction from growth hormone are you increasing immunity and then immune surveillance of different tumors and therefore decreasing and then causing the scale this is a big

debate of other growth hormones even beneficial when it comes to aging because the growth hormone does grow certain tissues there's models where people are growth hormone deficient and live a lot longer and growth hormone is not positive when it comes to cardiometabolic perspective and in species like dogs where there's tremendous variation in the amount of IGF1 that's made between say a chihuahua and a great dayne the breed that makes more IGF1 downstream growth hormone of course

lives a lot shorter lives than smaller versions of the same species yeah so you want to dog around for a long time get a chihuahua you want a real dog get a excuse but you want to get a great dayne or a bulldog there's a whole lot of that whole discussion of what's better and then you get into antagonistic cleatropy is this something that's good in youth but detrimental for longevity or is it prolonged evidence the big debate in the longevity fields whatever that you know field is

of whether or not to use growth hormone so now growth hormone is becoming very difficult to acquire through clinical prescriptions after the whole in adabox steroids act and buried bonds and all that stuff so people have now shifted to using the screen of dogs in lieu of growth hormone also growth hormone is very expensive very expensive yeah like Pfizer's Panzer are in the thousands of dollars so like if you want if you're rich you can afford to you know have that growth hormone

“have it but otherwise that's what you need to dog costs you know less than 100 bucks I'm told”

that growth hormone doesn't shut down one's own production it's not it's not a strong shut down like the tisticler access I'm also told that when people take it they feel awesome which is scary to say on a podcast because you're like oh no I don't want everyone running out in it you know young people are making tons of it but I mean that combination of looking younger feeling great cognitively feeling yeah I mean have some friends who've taken like an IU

and I or even two IU's and I you know five nights a week for for years and you go hey like I mean you're worried about some of the tumor effects and they're like you just function at a whole other level and you go oh god that's really enticing but you know even with great imaging you don't know if you've got to know us that you're accelerating in that case so it's kind of scary yeah and we don't have a data set that would show that like where's the body count

from from growth hormone like the bodybuilder body counts are from other compounds and that's doing everything yeah exactly I mean when you go into a gym you can tell who's who's doing growth hormone versus not based on their skin shining like you see a 45 year old dude that's through some adipods but has perfect young skin and now there's Botox and all the other things involved but you can tell that's that growth hormone look the hair looks a little bit healthier because growth

hormone favors the conversion of T4 to T3 so it changes the thyroid dynamics it can have protesticular effects as well from the IGF one perspective so there's a lot of you know useful effects to it the question is is that then a good idea to replace it traditionally like medical

“fields kind of anti uh using these screaty dogs to augment some out of pus but I think there's”

going to be a role for it perhaps cyclically because I don't think anything in nature is is

theoretical cyclical cycle of Tessa Moreland for a certain amount of time got your IGF one

“different level on your clinician guidance measured your your your thymus on the MRI before and”

after and then saw that thymus grew and you had you know higher CD4 CD8 count that would be pretty interesting we interesting a few years back and I've told this story publicly before I tried somorel and yeah there's different than obviously than Tessa Moreland but similar in the sense shirt at the end point is you're seeking is more uh growth from my IGF one and it dramatically increased my deep sleep and like nuked my REM sleep it's like the opposite of pineella

yep and together yeah yeah so well didn't try that the other thing that it did and the reason I halted it almost right away because I was really just running it as an experiment

on myself was that it spiked my PSA my prostate specific antigen it had always been in range and

relatively low boom spiked it and I was like whoa that's wild and I don't want that give off it yeah it revered it to a low level so that was pretty striking so obviously you know hyper responsive prostate to somorel and maybe it wouldn't have been to Tessa Moreland et cetera but those are the kinds of things that might be the growth hormone itself like the like musical hormone excretion is a good point as you age the prostate gets bigger the vein of every man is going to

be pH like that's going to be the reason that you hate your life from your sixties and seventies because you have the way in wake up a night to to pee and then when you're at it you know an amusement park you're gonna have to find the nearest bathroom very frequent weeks or bladder sizes go rest it out over there's there's some prostate peptides I'm looking at thanks this is like young guy oh guy

like you know you got ten more years before your miserable thanks there's prostate peptides that

happens and looked at that we're trying to translate some of that literature you'll save me now that there's there's people this kind of in brain and Henry who's translated like thousands of these papers from rushing to English so shout out to him no affiliation but he's translated a lot of this Russian literature and helped us from that so that's great but the prostate is growing with age under the control of DHT and estrogen and then probably growth hormone so

the question is do you want to be messing with that and increase in the size of that there's this concerns about you know cardiac growth liver growth so there's all these things but also growth hormone and and the secretive dogs have a negative effect on insulin sensitivity right so people say one sees what will usually jump like the the joke in the bottom of the community is

“you have to get lean enough and healthy enough to be able to take growth hormone”

all that's happening with hormone or the secretive dogs the growth hormone or so this can make you

insulin insensitive yes especially more like Tessa Moreland especially when combined with apromole and Sermole and it's kind of a weaker GHRH Tessa Moreland especially when combined with apromole and at Tessa Moreland's FDA approved apromole and it's not the GHRH for the GHRP kind of in the weeds there but those two together can create giant growth hormone response where your IGF1 is in the 38390s so that's that's quite high like puberty levels of IGF1 and your hungry all

the time yeah yeah with mk for sure with with Tessa Moreland so Tessa Moreland has more fidelity less grow well in effects especially because you can have grow in effects product in effects and cortisol effects whenever you're mucking around with the pituitary because they're all in that in that same area I think mk bleeds out the worst when it comes to having the other effects mk is not a peptide it's a non-veptide GHRP the what's happened now is people are now stacking

their GLP1 has their insulin sensitivity tool there's growth hormone or their GHRH and their engine modulation therapies as this Trinity stack Trinity stuff to get very fit very healthy quickly so a lot of these transformations you see in CEO's and celebrities and stuff is using a combination of those three things you know your TRT plus maybe out of our with Tessa Petite we're about a true type whatever maybe and then using a growth hormone modulation if you're gonna forward growth

hormone or Tessa Moreland epymorland and you're seeing people lose a lot of fat gain a lot of muscle in short amounts of time is that healthy we'll find out but that is like a celebrity protocol very interesting and I'm guessing that for women the it's the combination of growth hormone secreticog plus something like and we'll talk about these now reddit true tide or one of the other GLPs I'm going to acknowledge because people are gonna start like throwing darts to me about this yes

Reddit true tide is hitting things other than GLP pathways also GIP and GLuku on pathway but most people put it under the category of GLP so you are in cyclopiedic my friend I really really appreciate the clarity and the thoughtfulness of your answers on these and as people are probably becoming aware

“we could spend 50 hours talking about so I think we'll have to have you back to explore”

those other ones there a few other things I'd like to talk about if you're willing to give us kind of time should close the hatch on GHKC you I just spoke yeah yeah yeah and I saw it in your eyes you're like he said it wrong do I correct him yes correct everyone else does GHKC you get for the college and effects it's available in a lot of creams assuming it's real assuming people are doing this medically supervised is there any benefit to putting it directly on crow's feet or other wrinkles

topical that's actually not broken down because all these you know from these research campsites they sell topicals now because everyone's in skincare they're you know poor quality they're not even blue like if the GHKC should be blue but that would that would be blue from the copper yeah okay that makes sense yeah my copper pills are blue but that doesn't mean that it's a real could be copper just fallen out of the the complex of the GHK so yeah you want to well formulated

like a good skincare brand that knows how to formulate these and to deliver them into the skin because that's another thing so like you know every skincare brand has their now GHK formulation because people are demanding it but it's been around for 34 years on topical the

“injectable is not FDA proof of course I think it's going to be on the second round of discussions”

when it comes to the peptides coming back to category one the first round is going to have

the seven peptides BPCETB etc I think the second round is going to look at GHK I don't imagine that that makes it there's no good human data on that but topically there's great human data on not like different aesthetic outcomes especially when coupled with red light therapy because it seems that the blue pigment and and the red light seemed to be synergistic in that effect there's also some some literature when it comes to GHK see you for post UV damage so

people that are you know sun friendly can use GHK see you topically to alleviate some of the photo damage of course dermatologists are going to get mad at us and say like you just use sunscreen and don't get damaged in the first place but for people that you know our as responsible you can use GHK see you as a man of post sunscreen listen to the germs who are slightly more sun positive yeah especially low UV index sun when the sun is low in the sky yeah and after a boot

Bakery is is perhaps the only other person on the planet besides my friend Summer Hot Tars has been on this podcast who's as excited about circadian biology as an organizing feature as I am there are a couple others out there but in terms of people were like really grounded in what's real that he's he's I put him in that category whether he likes it or not so people are taking GHK see you cream putting it on and then doing red light therapy and there are human data that

that perhaps can augment some of the collagen reparative yes of some of the photo aging effects

“some of the the effects of aging when compared to like different retinols and stuff like that I think”

the the consensus in the field now is to use it with the rest of your skincare routine nine

place of it but a lot of people especially pros that have never been in skincare are now in

skincare because of in the skin care so yeah so okay there's that but it's promising pros are in the skin care yeah that will be a documentary before long like what do you call that that the man is fear it's like the skin is fear well with a little with looks maxing that's it's it looks maxing peptide now GHK because all these guys that are into looks maxing will use GHK they're dipping their hammer in GHK you and tap in themselves and by the way if

you want great long wavelength red near infrared and infrared light to augment your GHK see you uh peptide by the way not suggesting that there's this thing called sunlight that provides yet you just have to be careful not to get too much UV in the process so before before people start thinking they absolutely need a red light device full spectrum too free full spectrum balanced great article nature we can link to recently that describes the different

spectrums coming out different devices and that thing that we call the sun which is the best source of all of them and better blue light too and better because we're we're different private to 480 nanometers in this setup I mean as you have full spectrum lighting that that we don't know about I don't get paid to say what I'm about to say but I'm really excited about something for a long time I've used bond charges yeah bulbs because they have these bulbs that switch from full spectrum in

“the day then you you know you have to put the same switch and it goes to yellow and then”

slip flip the switch again and it goes to red I find the red to be kind of difficult to navigate at night raw optics yep they're the new one one that goes from like a morning really bright light full spectrum with a with some a lot of blue and they're on purpose to make you know part of the end the right blue the more 80 sand which the same switch don't have to change the bulb it goes to kind of a late morning mode to afternoon mode and then goes to candle light mode in the evening

and here's the cool thing not only to get the spectrum in the balance right but it doesn't flicker they got rid of the flicker that you get from LEDs and yet it's an LED so it's energy efficient yep that's a lot of infrared and yeah and I have no affiliation to them whatsoever I pay full price for these things and I have to say I really really like them even my bulldog puppy has a little one and a little monkey holding a lamp and I say when the monkey goes to candle like you're going to sleep

and he knows he's learning when it goes to candle light now he's so he's a dichromat and I try to come out with that's a different podcast all right GLP's yep now we can comfortably exhale into your colleagues can you can feel completely comfortable about anything that they might think or say because the GLP's are the reason why people are comfortable injecting themselves it's why this whole thing of peptides is really taken off BPC kind of rode in on the GLP's in my opinion

even though it's been around for a long time and so of all the other peptides we've been talking about

so what are your thoughts I've never taken one of these first things first we're hearing

um overdose with keroswisher about what he thought yeah where he overdosed actually a compound

pharmacy issue he thought was what did I trust him to do the right calculation so it does sound like that was like compounding pharmacy issue it afforded this is the by the farmer great option

“I think back then people were just getting them where they could get yeah I didn't ask him why”

why that happened but nonetheless get the dosage right make sure you're getting the right stuff clean but he talked about the kind of lack of motivation which many people have described anecdotally like okay lower their food drive but lower their drive period if make sense you know depending on which pathways are being affected but do you think that's a real effect is that something that people need to be concerned about do you think people can micro dose this stuff because a lot of

people are micro dosing it regardless of what their sources they're taking a lot less than the kind of standard clinical trials will be and we're leaving out right at your time for now yep because it's so new we're going to talk about it but I'm talking about the standard if yeah some of the 99 sure's appetite yeah yeah so that you have your you know semical side which is ozambic and wego v the wego v's the FDA approved version for the way loss for tripside you have

set bound and mungerol set bound being the FDA approved version for weight loss that allows them to keep

“their patents for longer these medications are good trying to transform me medicine especially”

or where I rack this right if we kind of zoom out our medical system if we didn't have these interventions was going to collapse on itself thanks to the obesity pre-diabetes diabetes epidemics because we don't have enough clinicians or finances to get everybody who was pre-diabetic in the last 20 years and they all transitioned to diabetes ended up with you know diabetic medications and dialysis and it actually cardiovascular disease and all these things we don't have the

resources to take care of all these people like our medical system was going to collapse and there wasn't enough finances to take care of it now these glp ones are coming in and kind of transforming that that phase of medicine because now we have a chance to dramatically change the rate of obesity diabetes prediabetes and all these cardinal metabolic disorders so where do we stand we need it something to happen I mean ideally everybody you know would

get morning sunlight and it only healthy foods on processed foods and have low stress and sleep

“great at night and maybe no one would develop to become obese but the reality is people become”

overweight obese they get stuck in that hole and if you just try to step out of the hole the way you came in sometimes that doesn't work you need a different path out of that problem and that's been you know the diet and exercise literature for the last 40 years millions of books have been sold on how to get people leaner we now have interventions medically that can dramatically change people's weights for the first time we've had drugs in the past that you know

five 10 percent of body weight now with these glp ones we're getting 10 20 even 30 percent of body weight being shave off of people especially with the new registered type data

is there a free lunch that's the big question like like we've come talk about earlier there's always

been these medical mishaps that have happened so far the data is very promising when it comes to glp ones and that we are now reversing this rate of chronic disease is again a stay that way that's a good question I'm cautiously optimistic when it comes to these medications I've been prescribed them since I was a resident in my VA clinic I was putting all these vets you know 300 pounds on glp ones they were losing 50 hundred pounds before it was an FDA approved for weight loss we knew

that that if you put diabetics on the drug they would lose weight thanks to a lot of the body pillars that kind of pioneered that when did the body bills for start using chill fees late 20 tens well really and then the signal I don't I don't think Norvo or Lily wanted to make these for obesity they were focused on making diabetes drugs because like if we zoom out even further this is another animal derives compound right it's found in the the saliva of the heel monsters

glp one was discovered it's too short acting to have worked on its own then pharmaceutical companies this is where you got to get from other credit they develop these drugs into more functioning versions that had you know longer half lives and could stick around in the serum for longer to have the clinical effect so then we started noticing that diabetics like my grandma got

Baita which was one of these first glp one drugs like 25 years ago it was the one out of all the

drugs she was on the reason I went to medicine that was the drug that changed her whole trajectory because she had less insulin needs and she was losing weight more energetic so we had seen the effects on diabetics and then you get a lyrical tidal gluteide and then eventually some of gluteidos is the blockbuster but you get all these positive effects coming from these drugs on diabetics it gets translated into obese people and overweight patients the question is what is the long-term

effect of this do you have a stem stroke forever can you type it off the farmers who companies are not going to say good guidelines on that they've shown us what happens if you stop the drug you max out on maximum dose for zeptide pull the brakes on people tend to sometimes gain the weight some people don't but some people will regain back to baseline because we think about it the better way to think about weight loss it's a calculation your brain does every single day

with all the different hormones and peptides that are made from the gut the gip glp glue gun insulin

theory or settling points and the integrate should i eat or not eat right so the gip one is a giant signal to the brain of don't eat so we're we're modeling this pathway what happens to all these young kids that are 1819 years old on 5 milligrams of retritid that have lost 3040 pounds are they're going to have to be on that for life now to maintain that weight can i ask you about that

“because when people say perhaps you have to be on a drug for the rest of your life I think okay”

what's the availability what's the cost yes what's the real world cost of taking six months off if you can't access it there's a shortage and maybe better drugs will come on like i don't necessarily have a problem with it although if you talk to type one diabetics and the old days that they weren't crazy about the idea that it constantly inject themselves with insulin now their better delivery devices kind of feel like eventually there'll be some slow release polymer that will just

kind of give you a micro dose of it you could dial it up if you want this there's all pills now personally i don't worry so much about like for the rest of your life i worry more about the much shorter life if people are obese but what about these brain effects i do worry about a brain that's developing in the context of a you know thousand fold or more increase in these glp's because when we had Zack night on the podcast he's not clinician he's a scientist at UCSF

Howard Hughes investigator which means he's like a superstar and deserves to be in that category is he described that the diabetics drugs would increase glp by like double quadruple but the weight loss effects weren't really there but the drugs that he rattled off a few minutes ago when jarod it was epic et cetera and certainly read a true tide we're talking about thousand fold increases in glp's we don't know what the long-term effects of those are on like neural plasticity and

let me know could be great yes could be positive we shouldn't always assume those effects are bad

yeah like the effects for like let's say a 60 year old pre diabetics diabetic on Alzheimer's disease

“seems to be potentially positive i think that's the study last year well didn't show a good signal”

on our Alzheimer's prevention but we know diabetes and cardiovascular disease speeds up that transition so controlling insulin dynamics might be beneficial there and obesity's not great for Alzheimer's risk the question is what about for like this cognitive effects is the effect happening from the drug itself is it from misuse of the drug to to high overdose you're not getting enough electrolytes you're not getting enough micro nutrients macronutrients you're not your bud sugar is low

because a lot of these patients the way we we approach it is training wheel effect when it comes to glp ones okay you come to us your patient you want to use glp ones will give you a lowest dose of possible that it has an effect for you glp one in conjunction with lifestyle modification dietary advice exercise programs et cetera et cetera and hopefully peel away those those training wheels or keep them on if you need them until we get to the end point that we want

now when people do it that way I don't hear a lot of these effects anecdotally from from

“vocal patients that we hear about online where people are like oh I'm depressed I hate my life”

from from these drugs and the question is are they just you know a lot of people have low blood pressure from from these drugs because they're not you know consuming enough electrolytes or enough food period because like some people will take a mega dose of these drugs and end up not eating like a day goes by they've eaten one meal that's not conducive to good feeling good everyone

you know the reason people are recent the first place because the eating is such a pleasurable

experience for humans and it shall fall experience et cetera et cetera the other thing is if you're not eating with people on the same table are you having less of that socialization aspect a lot of times you meet up to eat or drink or whatever it may be so I'm very curious when it comes to the cognitive effects is it from the drug directly interacting with receptors in brain when we we've seen that at the right amount of dose decreases inflammation in the brain

or is it because of the social aspects of the drug changing the way you behave and therefore leading to negative output or carry you think of confounding very well so cool because you're willing to go outside the box and say hey listen this might be due to some of the downstream consequences of reduced appetite yeah and we know the literature shows that people now are having less alcohol cravings from this it might be changing the way the dopant drug

signaling is happening in the brain which is concerning right there's a lot of people will be stacking this with you know ADHD medications they might be using some of these peptide stimulants some accident whatever maybe so the question because what happens is people go to these websites they buy one peptide and they've got a great result and they're like you know let me add three more peptides to reap hope to yes it's an increasing ALV problem so the average sale value

goes up from this research site we'll see where the old glp ones go the the reality is it's here

there there is no pre glp one world for us as clinicians as health enthusiasts we're in a post glp one world and everything kind of dictates downstream from that the people I know have taken these and I don't know exactly which are taking much lower dosages than we've described to them and they are indeed sharing them with getting the prescription then people are sharing them people are cost sharing now people are trying to get them from other sources several of those people

say they they feel like they can think better but I told them well yeah if your insulin sensitivity is improved if you're carrying less body fat body fat's an endocrine organ it's you need some

brain yeah well that'd be the left sensitivity increases as you decrease the body fat mass there's

there's glp one receptors on the pumps in your arms in the brain and no one's kind of examined what that means downstream for the left and malanacortin pathway and what that means for energy status you know thyroid home production reproductive status we know a lot of people are ozambic babies in that a lady will will be sub fertile or infertile start a weight loss drug and then find out back since she's pregnant was she obese before yeah there is their overweight

obese woman that are having their fertility improve as a result of lose the weight because we know your leptin status is a key driver fertility because if you're having low leptin levels you're starving you shouldn't be fertile if you have too much leptin and you're at leptin resistant you

shouldn't be having kids either so both those those things kind of get modulated by these drugs as

well there was a science paper some years ago that leptin hitting a certain threshold is actually

“what signals the onset of puberty and females is that still considered true I think that's that's”

part of it makes sense like enough body fat is a signal that there are enough resources and then yeah animals or that was an animal study or the idea was that people perhaps also become females become reproductively competent at the point where there's enough energetic resources that interesting have you ever taken one of these oh wow yes I had a family member with a GP one pen from four years ago that said it wasn't working so I'm like okay let's see what's going on here I got a pen don't

don't do this at home and I was like yeah it's not working like it's it's bonks they got them overseas it was a a brand name ozambic pen but gone from overseas got the pen I was like you know what if it's bonks let's see what it is don't do this at home buy a hackers in me came out and tried it I injected a I think it was a milligram of ozambic what's a standard dose you start at 0.25 okay that's good to 0.5 you went straight to a milligram yeah it doesn't work I'm eating so much

“I'm okay whatever you got bunk bunk pen from overseas I go to do a shift I was on a shift that day”

and I've never had charizard like projectile vomiting in low blood sugar presumably the

blood sugar effects for non-diabetics don't get that low but it was just miserable like I would go to go and medipation go upstairs vomit in the in the call room you just gave a really good reason why people shouldn't just do what you just know they shouldn't do that then go back back to the yard medipation and it was it was the most miserable night of my life so it'd be very careful how you use these drugs that's like titrate very slowly luckily with the newer ones that effects

are much less like the people who report surdeptide in retritide even have less of these gastrointestinal effects but that's a peptide gone wrong story peptide gone wrong retriture tied yep I put out a post on ex I thought and I just still think that that retritides going to be a trillion dollar industry not because so many people are necessarily going to use it for weight loss but because many people will use it for weight loss many people will use it for other

things because you can be sure absolutely sure that Lily is going to find other ways to market it and you can protect a patent by finding additional uses for things I mean a lot of the blockbuster drugs for eye diseases the patents to prevent generic forms were continued by here's the deal folks companies are really incentivized to take the hundreds of millions of dollars that they spent on clinical trials and research and development and not have to do it again so if you can find another

valid use for a drug you don't have to run all the safety stuff you don't have to do a lot of stuff you just have to show efficacy and a few other things but that's the way that drug companies continue to play the game to protect their their investment right I mean it you can understand why they do it your business but so I'm guessing that retriture tied is going we're going to discover that it's useful for a number of things and from the clinical trials there's a reason

believe that's going to be the case and the big thing that trying to do now is classify as a biologic so retriture tied has 39 amino acids to be a biologic it could be above 40 amino acids and once you get to above 40 amino acids if you were a biologic then the patent lasts way longer I don't know the exact number like 15 years we had much much of it if it's 40 below amino acids then it's something like five yeah yeah just seven years so we're talking like hundreds of hundreds of millions of dollars

maybe the billions of dollars if it's a if you and you can think of it with this you mean how to amino acids and more importantly no one can compound it if it's a biologic or it's very difficult to compound like that with the right right certificates something similar happened with ACG where it was taken out of the compounders recently really yeah so ACG human corionic and natural but this is commonly prescribed for trying to restore fertility to to men but it's mean

mostly being given in IVF cycles to women yeah there's a big controversy about ACG and compounders

“and who can compound it and who can't that's that's beyond this but this is a very important thing”

because if it literally gets retriture tied as a biologic then the compounders are out of luck because

China and and start compounding it as soon as it's available it will it will make them all billions of

dollars but if literally they're able to do this they'll be able to protect themselves from what's going to happen see the Trump administration now is trying to get with Trump our ex literally in

“no one orders to drop their prices to make it more available which has happened like it now I think”

you can get a you know $300 monthly dose of true's appetite available through these websites used to be 1500 yeah 1500 without insurance some insurance will cover it some some wooden you'd have to get a you know savvy commission that will add to counter sat on your behalf to get these covered but cash pay you know even some of the the pills I think you can pay 150 bucks a month for the or 4g upon which is not a peptide but still glp1 agonist which kind of gets into the point like

it doesn't matter if it's a peptide or not what matters is where where it touches what

receptor touches because or 4g upon is more similar to semi-glutide both them are glp1 drugs one's a peptide one's not then BBC is the semi-glutide so like everyone on lines like about peptides are good or peptides are bad there's no actual scientific category of peptides that gives you a functional definition that's discussed both into people because what do you mean my peptide do you mean carnacin or do you mean right at your time excellent point speaks to a lot of

confusion you are a beam of clarifying information on this actually I'm going to put in a vote publicly right here and now but also I'm going to do what I can to contact folks that are relevant

“I think you should no joke I think you should be in charge of a nomenclature committee”

I think in in the world of genetics for a long time there people would just name gene sonic head jogger you know you know sink one or the people name it after their cousin or right and it was a mess and so what ends up happening is you find similarity between genes across different laboratories and venture eventually you have a meeting and you come up with a you have a nomenclature committee and then you say this is you know f 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 these are the

sequences the general public doesn't think about molecules in that way no but the general public are diving right into this they are the experiment and so what I think would be very very useful would be a clear and accessible nomenclature to divide up what we've talked about today BPC-157 you know peptides with and without known receptors the regenerative peptides as you've call them exact MSNL for TB 500 which are immunogenic peptides I think the word peptides is just

too general I'm putting my vote in for you not that you don't already have enough to do to come up with some nomenclature that maybe I can help propagate in some of the other people in the podcast community we'll even contact our our close close friends in in legacy media and explain to them how this works and maybe they can help propagate it just for sake of clarity yep right we're not taking the stance these are good or bad but just for sake of clarity as given that there's so many

people that have peptide curious okay so before we wrap I solicited X and Instagram for questions about peptides I did not reveal exactly who you are but I gave some of your credentials and got back many many excellent questions most of which thanks to you we're answered during the course of our conversation up until now but there are a couple of them that many people asked we didn't touch on at least not directly one thing that's come up several times is the question about for women

who have endometriosis or fibroids or other things related to reproductive health and potential can things like BPC 157 help and or hurt those circumstances given their potential role in angiogenesis and the other things you described no literature exists either animal or human data that relates to those peptides I'd say those are more hormonal slash metabolic issues that that a good OBGYN should take care of and they're very difficult to treat conditions and very

miserable to have for people and have fertility implications but those are more on the hormonal

“side I think the hormonal levels are way stronger than peptide level like BPC or any of those and”

as far as I'm concerned there's no case reports or studies that which is just positive or negative CNS effects central nervous systems excuse me of BPC 157 or other peptides that we've talked about that don't fall under the you know typical umbrella that people you know go to when they think about BPC 157 and you talked about some of the stuff related alcohol and perhaps other things like adorol but anything known about you know people feeling better or worse on different peptides just

psychologically neurologically TBI I'll throw TBI in there for you know I I don't have TBI fortunately but I know many people that do they reach out to me could it be beneficial in those cases. Yeah there were studies in Russia on TBI when it comes to Cortexan and Suripalizing which

probably never be available in the United States so we'll skip those there's no good data on BPC

TBI's they theoretically could be useful from an anti stress perspective that would be interesting to explore that BPC's neurological effects are very homeostatic in nature they don't let you get too high and in the in the my state at least the mice can't get too drunk and they can't withdraw from alcohol they can't get too high on on the good mice methamphetamines and they

that might explain some of these and hedonia side effects that people are reporting

where BPC modulates the gut brain access in a way which we do not understand it's kind of woo woo that makes it so that your brain can't go too far in one direction maybe in putting if we think of it just those just so story it's putting you into a resin digest state to heal

“whatever problem you have that's why BPC exists as a big parent compound that might be”

part of the fact that if you scrape BPC your body goes into like a conflessant mode because it will take away stimulants it'll take away sedatives don't try this of course but there seems to be a homeostatic mechanism in BPC that needs to be explored further with good data very interesting thank you the major question was what should people do if they are actually interested in obtaining peptides let's just set the GOP's aside because it's kind of

a separate category and they want to explore their use and they want to be as safe as possible

where shouldn't they look yeah is how all phrase the question um where should they look who should

they talk to at what point do they can they be confident that what they're taking is what you know the bottle claims and and that it's you know free of contaminants um and so on I many many questions but I think this is what kind of the question it's it's the most difficult question answer because the majority of people are getting their peptides from research only websites unfortunately those are not reliable we don't know what's in them they could be good

could be bad could be as good as a compound pharmacy could be much worse could be the wrong peptide in in the vile so we don't know what's in there what should happen over the next six 12 24 months is there will be a lot of physician lead options for patients to get peptides

“number one you should encourage your physician if you don't have one get one and get a good”

relationship with one because having a good relationship with your physician is a key aspect of driving good health but having a physician that's educated on peptides to my doctor friends all of you guys and now live in a peptide era you know choice but to get educated so get educated to create resources for that there will be a lot of telemed options opening up soon through various companies that will offer these peptides and it will be good for the consumer

because it will be our race down in price and then we'll know which which compound pharmacy is a better which ones are worse so you can get a better source peptides but you should get them from clinicians the question that's going to happen is there's going to be a lot of these orally available peptides and they're going to be all over supplement websites like you'll find them with your magnesium and you're creating and then your opinion on or your BPC157 the question

is what is that gonna look like so we'd like you know our FDA overlords to give us some guidance there on what can cannot be sold and but but it should be physician lead you should be doing this under the guidance of a physician that's monitoring you you know you shouldn't be taking test them all in without checking IDF1 levels a GLP1 even should be monitoring the physicians that can counsel you on too much weight loss like some of these when this celebrity should have

had better clinicians monitoring their GLP1 journey because they lost a way too much weight is that doesn't look healthy at all unless someone is first of all someone's not having the basics and in place there's no right point putting all these peptides in like warning sunlight so we don't have this at night yes good diet minimally processed food yes the next phase of peptide curious and peptide driven discussions is going to be like how do you incorporate it into a

giant health system like you do morning sunlight blood blockers and epitalon you do you know PPC and you work out in the gym or whatever it may be there's going to be protocols that

“develop but I think within six months there'll be very good physician options for everybody”

a boot amazing thank you so much for coming here today and again shedding so much light on

what all these things are you have an it clearly a virtuoso level understanding and ability to communicate about the history of these things what they are what they aren't what we know what we still don't know the potential upsides the potential hazards the the regulation and on and on there are 50 other topics that you and I must talk about at some point you're an knowledge of hormones and men and women pregnancy and women's hormones affecting the fetus

how progesterone impacts DHT and male offspring that incredible absolutely want to have you back to have that discussion but we'll let people digest this in the meantime we'll put links to where people can find you and I just want to say thank you for doing what you do and if you don't mind me sharing your your 33 years old that's right I love that you're a clinician and you're practicing medicine but please please keep wherever you can keep up your efforts as a public

educator come back and talk to us again you're a gift to us all and thank you so much thank you pleasure be here and thank you for the kind words thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Abud Bakri to learn more about his work and to find links to the various things we discussed please see the show note captions I should also mention the Dr. Bakri has just released a new app which is focused on circadian biology which we didn't talk about today but he's a true expert

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