Dealing with Conflict in a Missional Parish Q&A - Ron Huntley | Ep. 128 | Huntley Leadership Podcast

because I don't know that we always handle conflict well and I think we only have to experience

conflict poorly a couple of times before we shy rate away from it. And so I'd suggest that

“different people of different levels of comfort in waiting into conflict. But I think when conflict is”

done well, it actually becomes the glue with an organization's because teams travel at the speed of trust. Welcome to the Huntly Leadership Podcast helping leaders be a positive catalysts in the people they support the organizations they serve and the communities they live. This podcast will make you think, laugh and grit your teeth with new determination to make your parish or business a place of transformation, passion and purpose. If you're still breathing, you are powered for impact.

Hello, my friends and welcome to the Ron Huntly Leadership Podcast. We are excited to talk with you today about dealing with conflict in a national parish. It's a great conversation and thank you for all of you who sent in questions. This was a great idea from Lorraine and David. I'm really excited to dive into it. If you're watching on YouTube, I'd encourage you to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe because that helps a lot to get the algorithms cooking to get these conversations

far and wide when it comes to parish for a new and really issues of leadership that help any organization grow and have impact. Lorraine is going to lead us as a host today, but we're going to beat this stuff around and hopefully argue and disagree and model conflict ourselves who knows.

“But I think we'll have a lot of fun having the conversation. So thanks Lorraine for doing this.”

Thank you Ron and it's so good that so many of you are participated by sending in some great questions. We haven't got time to go through them all of course, but I'm sure it's going to be really amazing conversation. So let's just get right on in there, I think. Let's do it. And so the first question that someone sent in Ron is, what impact does conflict have on a team? Good and bad? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. All these are good questions.

So I hate when people see that every time they have a question, so I'm not going to say it's done. Okay, so what impact can conflict have on a team both good and bad? And I think we're probably all live that probably more the bad than the good to be honest with you because I don't

know that we always handle conflict well. And I think we only have to experience conflict

poorly a couple of times before we shy rate away from it. And so I would suggest that different

“people of different levels of comfort in waiting into conflict. But I think when conflict is done”

well, it actually becomes the glue with an organization's because teams travel at the speed of trust. And so often when we start a team or a new project or hire a new person, we're like, oh, we've hired the right person this time, that last time that person was terrible, they just got worse. So glad to get rid of them. This person's amazing. They're everything we wanted. And you know, it's been months in. They're not who I thought they were. They lied on the

right. Like it's funny. Well, what we can tell ourselves, but I guess at the end of the day,

we're always going to find ourselves in a place of conflict. If teams travel and work together

and are doing anything significant. And again, we're talking about missional perishes. If you're not missional, you might not run into any conflict. But if you're going to make a difference, and when I say, "Missionally, I mean, are you intentionally trying to have an impact that glorifies God?" And if that's true, you're going to run into conflict, even within your team. And so the key isn't not to have conflict. The key is to have conflict well. And when we have

conflict well, all of a sudden, we start to grow and trust. Our relationship has resilience. Like if you and I do get out and have difference of opinions, even I've worked together for years. And what I love about working with you, Lorraine, is you don't mind telling me when you have a different opinion and perspective. And we'll disagree respectfully, but I trust your wisdom. And I also trust that we're on the same page and going in the same direction. And so when there's

pushback and we're kicking around ideas, it's coming from a place of trust and alignment division. But conflict is when trust is being eroded. It feels scary because there's something at stake. You're not hearing me or I don't feel heard by you. And I can tell you're angry with me because your face has changed, your voice has changed, your backing away, your body language has changed. That's conflict. There are between sharing ideas and having conflict and conflict is scary.

But if we can get through it, all of a sudden I realize, not so cake is when Lorraine and I have an out, like when we have a falling out, we've done that before. And you know what, she listened to me.

And we were okay on the other side. And so if we were okay last time, maybe we'll be okay this time. And so when that happens a few times, actually conflict dealt with well and quickly can be glue on teams. And that grows trust. And when we grow trust, we can function in ways that have the biggest impact. And we have the most fun at the same time when it's helped out with poorly. Things get on, they are left unresolved. There's, I don't know, David's, please bring

up this slide. There's a slide that goes through form. Anytime there's a new team or a new assignment, teams go through this psychological stage of forming, storming, norming, performing and adjourning. And so that storming is, is there not because you have

“numschools on your team, but because we're human and it's normal. And so the key of storming”

well is to form intentionally. But when we take, when we make a lot of assumptions that everything's going to be fine forever, we don't form intentionally. We find ourselves storming and we don't storm well. What ends up happening is we avoid the conflict or we don't fully deal with it. And when that happens, people will disengage. They'll protect themselves because they're not dumb. We have to protect ourselves when we're in situations and relationships that the other person isn't trustworthy. And when

that happens, we might be going to work because we appreciate our paycheck and we have bills to pay and responsibilities. But all of a sudden, the passion for what we're doing starts to get drained. So unresolved conflict really is the devil's playground. And if we're in a leadership role,

I would suggest that one of the most important things you can do is skill up in having crucial

and difficult conversations so that you can, you can and help your team learn to do conflict well. Because it really is a skill set that we must have if we're in a position of leadership and leadership is influenced. And when we avoid conflict conflict, conflict avoided is conflict multiplied. I don't know who said that. I guarantee it wasn't me. It's too clever. But that's my experience too.

“How will you have use? I know we've all seen this. What would you add to that, Larry?”

I guess for me, I think that the times when I've been in teams that have handled conflict badly, most of the time it's been something that has just stayed underneath. And so the fear of conflict or some stops people from saying things or respect for further or something. And I've just found and we all have to be nice and so we have to pretend. And that's like a bit of a cancer eating

away at the relationships of the team. So conflict can be a really amazing thing if we deal with it.

Otherwise, it can be something that erodes and absolutely kills a team. It has been my experience. So good when we deal with it, good when we work through it, absolutely bad when we hide from it and refuse to engage with it or engage in it in a way that's disrespectful and doesn't listen to other people's opinions and erodes trust. And if we don't trust each other in the first place, conflict just isn't going to be done well as you were saying.

“Yeah, becomes impossible. And even as you're saying that, Larry, and I think things erode from”

two perspectives, one relationships and just as you mentioned, but also effectiveness for the sake of mission, whether you're a business and trying to have an impact with whatever service you're bringing to the world or a church. And so both of them can suffer. Yeah, it's so dealing with that well, it's such an important skill set. And there was a book that we read early on called

crucial conversations. It was an amazing book. So shout out to those authors. And I know when we

went to the global leadership summit virtually, it was Father Simon Lobo who said, what are we going to do with all that information? And we're like, well, we've been to three. We don't do anything with that information. We just get formed by it, but he's so good at being practical and pragmatic in terms of implementing things. And so he said, well, I suggest we, because we're all impressed with the talk on the on the book. I suggest we read that book together and kind of do it as a

book study. And I was the best idea, because we all grew so much and self-understanding how we deal with conflict. Because a lot of times we don't even know what's going on inside of ourselves and our natural responses to conflict. I often do conflict styles with leadership teams so that they can understand how they approach conflict naturally when they're not at their best and what

drag our family experience into our life and we're doing it unconsciously. And so when we have these tools in this language, we can kind of laugh at ourselves and also recognize patterns instead of inflicting these negative patterns on people. We can recognize and own our own patterns. And then hopefully be a little wiser on how we approach relationships and deal with conflict. So there are like many things in life. We think that people are just naturally good or naturally bad at it.

“But I don't know if that's always true. I think there are a lot of skills, particularly as it”

relates to leadership and conflict, that we can grow in together. And so if you're listening and and that resonates with you, go get that book and challenge a few other people to read it with you and grow in your skills. Sounds good. So we've got another question here that's a little bit of a series of questions about how to how do you initiate discussion on conflict issues? And so the first question is when conflicts arise? So if you sense that there's something that needs to be

talked about, is it always wise to communicate them to the next person above you in your organisation

and let them handle it? Or when is it better to talk directly to a higher up leader? So so how do you start that conversation and who with? That's a, I don't know what you learned, but I feel like that's a loaded question. I think there's a lot of questions within that question perhaps. So a couple of things I would just say one, that assumes their structure. And I so I think that's good. Just because we have structure, we have to have a structure that we trust and

it's the people in the structure that's important. And so if you have a conflict, should you go to the person that supports that ministry? And I think the answer is go to the person you have the problem with first. And if that doesn't work out and you can't solve it, then yeah, then bringing

in the person who's responsible for the ministry. Because remember, what are we trying to do? We always

have to stay focused whatever your ministry is. Let's say it's youth ministry. Let's say this person is in youth ministry. And maybe they're really upset with the way one of their co-leaders leads a group. And so okay, we'll have that conversation with a co-leader and have it in the context of what we're trying to accomplish as a small group or if it's music ministry or whatever it is, but focus on your shared objective and make sure you agree on the shared objective. Because if I say,

you know, we really want these kids to have an amazing experience in grow closer to Christ and you're saying, well, no, we just want to provide a place for them to have pizza and ice cream and develop some new friends. It's like, okay, we better figure that out. And so when there's conflict,

we always have to, I feel peel it back to our common denominator. And hopefully that's vision

and impact that we want to have. And so if we can agree on that, then we can say, there's some behaviors that I'm seeing that I think are eroding what we say we're trying to accomplish together. And so go to the person, do it through the lens of vision so that you can start the conversation from a place of that you agree upon. If you don't agree on the vision, then have that conversation.

“Because you have to build up. So that's what I would say. If that doesn't work out with the person”

that you're doing ministry with, then yeah, go to the person that's responsible for supporting the ministry. And I imagine the so many churches going, we don't have a structure. What are you even talking about? So that's another conversation. But if you're emotional church, you're going to have to have structure because a priest can't do it on his own. And that includes a lot of volunteers. Doesn't have to be staff. It can be volunteers. But by all means, go to the person who's responsible

for the ministry. Like, in that ministry itself, do you have training days? Do you have, as a ministry, do you talk about what kind of culture you want to have? In that ministry, do you talk about how you're going to go about doing ministry and how you're going to resolve conflict? Like, all of these things are a part of healthy ministries. And so sometimes we get just so busy executing the task or doing the ministry itself. We don't talk about culture. We don't

talk about vision. We don't talk about resolving conflict. And then we wind up in conflict and we don't know how to deal with it. And so it's that's normal. But if you're in that situation, you might want to say to the person who supports the ministries. Like, I think Lou, Knight might need to hit the pause button. Go back and do some more intentional forming, as I mentioned earlier, and then and arrowed some of the prickly issues that are servicing within our ministry,

that are starting to deteriorate relationships. And sometimes you do have to hit the pause button

“and you have to go back to those principles. Because if all you are doing is executing ministry”

and just assuming everything's fine, eventually good people are going to leave and your ministry is going to be in a pickle. At one point, another thing I hear in that question is at one point

see it and is part of the problem. And that's tricky. Because as soon as I go around that person,

trust is definitely going to hurt and it's going to hurt a lot. And so if I had to, let's say

“it was you and me and let's say Christian was the person who supported us. And I think I have”

the conversation with you and if we weren't able to work it out, like Lorraine, I'm frustrated, you're frustrated. You probably both went to kill each other, but we didn't want to, we didn't feel that way a month ago. And so clearly, we're not able to resolve this, maybe we should go to Dr. Christian together and get some help. Because if we don't deal with this, it's going to impact both of us and it's going to impact the ministry. And so what do you think

of that? And if you like, no, Ron, up yours, you're a jerk and I don't know, then yeah, I'm going right around you because now I realize, okay, this we either have to fix this where I have to leave because I'm not going to put up with your attitude and this horrifying work environment. And so sometimes we have to go up the food chain so to speak. But if that is necessary, I'd want to go with that person. If they refuse, that tells me a lot about them. And I'll have to go

around them because they're probably not healthy enough to be in this position that they're in. Perhaps so let's try and get a question. Yeah, so try and go with rather than around. So the next question in this how to initiate discussion on conflicts issues kind of area is what's

the best mode of communicating conflicts written or verbal? Okay, that's an easy one. It's always

verbal. Don't check and out by writing a text or an email or don't, don't ever bring correction or deal with problems in emails or text, ever, ever. Just don't do it. And we, I think we often do it maybe this, we say it's the save time, but it's really because we're checking. So don't check and out have the conversation. Yeah, don't please don't. There's so much misunderstanding that comes to written communication. No matter how good you think you are a writer, do not do it always,

always pick up the phone or go to that person's office. Yeah. One of the things that I find helpful runners that I get a little bit scared about conflict. And so sometimes I find it really helpful to write down some points and think about it through that way to myself, to kind of write it down and sometimes I'll even roll play in the in the mirror or with somebody in my household. So that when I go to the person with the conversation verbally in person, usually or on the phone, I've already

“got a bit of an idea of how I'm going to put in the best way what I want to say, because sometimes”

I'll worry about that. What do you think about that? I think it's brilliant. I do it all the time and coaching all the time. Because yeah, I absolutely do. And two reasons, one, I think doing the mirror is helpful. I think doing it with somebody else is way better because they're going to give you a different perspective. Because we often come at things with our best intent and all our skills and experience. And when we lay it out there, we think it's rational. We think it's reasonable.

We think it's going to be received. Well, that's the only one way of seeing it. But when we share it with another person, hopefully somebody who's wise and we trust, if if we're off-base, they'll be able to see it way better than we can. We will not be able to see ourselves. We will think what we're doing makes sense and is logical and reasonable when the very words we use might inflame the whole situation. And so I think that's a great idea. Right? Some points think it through prey about it.

Always prey in the conflict because sometimes in prayer, I realize the fault wise more with me

than I thought it did. In the beginning, I always want to blame the other person and vilify them. But what I take it to prayer, God often, very gently, very kindly says, "No, you're the

“what had wrong. You need to own this. You need to apologize." And sometimes, God himself”

de-escalates the issue. And I can own my stuff and start with an apology. But sometimes it's bigger than it really isn't. It's something you do need help with. But yeah, write it down, pray into it and then roll play it with some friends, a friend or two, that we're confident realities really important. It's last thing you want them doing is going to tell them somebody else and wisdom. Yeah, and in that, yeah, make sure you listen. And I know when you're on hurt too,

because sometimes, you know, when we're in a conflict, sometimes more often than not, actually there's

sometimes it's hard to admit that you're, but you know, you might have to process some of your pain. That's where prayer could be so helpful because it can emotionally detach yourself from the situations. That's what we want to do and we enter into dealing with the conflict. It's not be emotionally charged and come at people from a place of self righteousness and not so good at them and expert at that.

And I never proud of myself when I act out of that place. And so I think your your tips are really

wise. And then the next question is, when is the best time to communicate conflict immediately or

“after some time? I think I think you have to use your discernment on that. I would suggest that”

it's all off. It's it's better to deal with it sooner rather than later, because again, conflict avoided is conflict multiplied. And we want to deal with things before they, you deal with issues before they become problems. And sometimes we just hope they'll go away. It's not a great strategy. But if we're in a meeting and, you know, you do something or say something and I want to come back at you and, and that might embarrass you, then that might not be the

best time. And so sometimes you need to discern it, but sometimes standing for up for yourself

in a meeting is really important because it's just a meeting that you're only going to be at, you know, once in the air or once in a quarter. And so no stand up for yourself. Don't let bullies roll over you because that creates a culture where bullies prevails. So don't let that happen.

“So you have to discern a little bit, but you always want to deal with it sooner than later.”

And if it's at one of those meetings that you think and this probably isn't the time right now, but it needs to be dealt with, you know, maybe at break, I'm going to pull you aside and say, "Lirate, I just need to, I want to talk to you about something that happened in there that really

fostered me because I don't want it to linger because I care about you and I care about our

mission, but I also don't want it to go unspoken." And so can I share with you, you know, and I, you know, maybe that's a place to deal with it. So, but deal with it sooner rather than later. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. So now we'll move into our next question. How do you approach someone who has influence and power on the team that who is so conflict devoidant that problems don't get addressed in a timely or effective manner? I think we've all had someone like that on our

team. Yeah. And I coach a lot of priests and bishops like that to be honest with you.

“And again, I think it's because Conflict didn't go so well eventually. It's like, yeah, I just”

want to avoid it because, you know, they've had some trauma and their life has a result of poor poor outcomes from conflict. And so I do totally get it. Now, at the same time, this is where I find strengthfinders and A pest vocational assessment tools that I use when coaching churches so helpful. But also the conflict styles. Because when we understand how or hardwired and the gifts and strengths, we have the caretins we have, it starts to make sense out of the way we view and tackle conflict.

And so self-awareness is such an important part of leading. I know some people hate those tools, but I'll tell you, the more you know yourself, the better later you're going to be because then you can communicate your style to people and then people can say Ron, you're doing that thing again. And then I can own it. But then we have a language for it. We have a common understanding, but when we don't, we have to judge each other. And so these tools

are so helpful to take ownership of how you're wired because that often those patterns show up in your life over and over again. And we need to take responsibility for those as leaders. And often too, like for me, one of my conflict styles when I'm not at my best is I get competitive. And so I want to win and so I'll one up you with with intensity or with volume or with the amount of things, examples I'll bring to the table, not overpower people. That's an

awful way to deal with things. But again, when we're not at our best, all of those options are awful. But one of the awful ways is avoidance. It's just as awful. It's torturous for the person who knows we have a problem and we're not dealing with it. They're dying in languishing inside and we're just avoiding eye contact and not returning to phone calls. That's just as awful as being competitive. But if you don't know you do that and you don't know why you do that, then it really makes it

hard to resolve conflicts with in important relationships. And so all that to say that if you find yourself being led on a team or by a church or in a business where the leader avoids conflict, you're going to have to make the, they're avoiding conflict atopic initiative. And you say,

pattern that, and it's okay, but I wonder if we can start maybe doing some, and get some coaching,

“get some help, but doesn't have to be us, but get some help, and get some coaching in these areas”

so that you can take ownership of it, because not having conflict isn't the goal, dealing with conflict well is the goal. And you might have to just let that leader know that I see this pattern in you. It's okay, but I'm wondering if we can address it and develop a language around it so that we can do a better job of dealing with things sooner, so that people don't disengage, because nothing more is losing great people because conflict's been allowed to brew and go unresolved. I mean,

this just, that just stinks, because it's hard enough to do a mission. It's really hard to

do a mission without the right people. And so we really are going to have to figure out conflict.

We cannot run from it and still stay in leadership. And if you have somebody in a leadership role who's avoiding conflict and they refuse to deal with it, get them out of leadership. Like it's not the place for them. It's a skill set we need to grow in if we're in leadership. But if you boss, it's a bit hard. It's really hard. If it's your parish priest or something, you're not getting them out of leadership. But that's where I would say I would. So if it was

father Lorraine, I would say father Lorraine, you know, here's one of the things that you're it's often people that are high in relationship gifts that avoid conflict because they value relationships so much that anything that jeopardizes relationships scares the daylights out of them from a place of love and care. And so their motives are good. They're way of doing it isn't helpful. But they often feel stuck. And so it often comes from a good place. And so, you know,

I might say something like, you know, father Lorraine, I could tell how much you care for people

“and love people. And I think that's so cool. I also recognize that maybe it's because of that”

that when conflict comes up, you tend to avoid it and hope it goes away by itself as that fair. And if so, I'm wondering if there are some tools that we can enter into some conversations with our team so that we can all grow on this because I think I can help you with that because I'm not a strong relationship skills as you are. And but I've also had different experiences resolving conflict. But I think if we do this stuff together and this is where leading out of a team

is so important because if you're just left to your own skills and gifts, it's always deficient.

No matter how smart you are and how holy you are, you're not holy enough and smart enough to lead the impact God wants you to have in your church. And so, have the humility to lead out of a team and then lean into the strengths and gifts of other people so that you can work together to make the best decisions and that includes relationally in dealing with conflict. Our next question is a fairly long one, so you're going to need to listen carefully.

Is keeping the pace or finding a happy medium? The best strategy to manage a parish that encompasses groups with diverse views on which direction the parish should be moving in and what kind of strategies might be available in? Right. And so it's like keeping the peace often to me sounds more like is our mission really worth the conflict that I'm probably going to have to navigate. How much energy do I have? We're probably doing good enough or

don't better than the people next door. I know there's a lot more we could do but I just don't

“have the energy so I'm inclined to keep the peace. I think conflict is often the road through”

which we have to travel to get to the next level of impact. And again, everything, every question we ask has to be or I'd encourage you to to process it through the lens of what God is calling you to do. The impact you believe God is calling you to have. Let me just tell you a little story. Like if those you watch on YouTube you think in Jesus, Ron, you usually doesn't dress like that and where is he anyway? I'm at a friend's house because Nova Scotia is currently

on fire in some regions and we've been evacuated. And it's scary to just get called and like seeing flames everywhere and smoke everywhere and running from your home and seeing whole neighborhoods like getting out of this crazy. And I just watch on the news the other day a little clip on however I was catching it wasn't a TVX, we don't have a TV in the trailer or staying in our trailer in a campground. But it was this lady who was with a bunch of animals and she said she has an animal

took as many animals as she could out in the first run and then she went back to get the others

and they wouldn't let her in which is fair. Like the first responders have their regulations and rules but she was mortified. Well why was she mortified? Like did you see it talking about the situation? She was mortified because she is a call to care for animals. It was written all over her face. What did she do? She parked her car on the side of the road. I don't recommend this and she bushwacked through the trees in shorts. This young lady got scraped and bleeding everywhere

to rescue all 18 of those animals and running them back. Like good luck stopping her from doing the very thing she feels called to do and that's care for animals and I saw her living her call as I was watching that interview and she had to pause a couple of times because she was going to cry because she cared so deeply. If you're a leader, how deeply do you care? Because the more you care, the less you won't do to have the impact that God's calling you to have with your life.

And so if it's just a job then yeah, keep the peace. But if it's a calling, how can you just keep the peace? We have to find a way to help divergent groups within a parish and I see it all the time.

“Differentia between their preferences and the mission. Because I really believe we can divergent”

groups can rally around mission. They rarely can rally around preferences. And so if our preferences take priority over the mission, good luck. But if you can slowly and I know this isn't

easy, but engage people in a better conversation and the better conversation is always purpose.

The better conversation is always impact and if we can elevate people to that conversation, then we can we're often willing to let go of our preferences. Like that lady's young lady, sure she didn't want her legs all scratched and bleeding and bushwag through the, but she was willing to do whatever it took to get from here to there. And as leaders, are we willing to do that? And if so, it's going to mean conflict from time to time. But make sure

that conflict with a divergent groups isn't around preferences. Preferences is always the wrong conversation. Impact, mission, purpose, that is the conversation that we can go, oh yeah, I was thinking too small. And we need to invite people and people that refuse to do that,

because they're going to be, you know, and Father James spoke divine renovation the very first

stories about the card. The card part of people didn't want to give up cards for the sake of evangelizing and making disciples in the church and they didn't have any problem with telling them how we felt. And it's like, that's okay, but you've just shared with me where your value is lie. And we have a misalignment of values. And sometimes that's going to be the case, and then, you know, those are our values. That's not the call of Jesus in the church. And so,

we have to be careful where we place our line in the sand and make sure we're on the right side of that line. And let's align with what Jesus called us to do. And that's to care and love up for others, not to create a club where our homies can feel like, I don't know, they're a part of

“a club, like it's more than that. And so, I don't know, what are your thoughts, like Lorraine?”

Yeah, yeah. Happy medium is sometimes a very low medium, isn't it? And if we just try to keep everybody happy, we tend to stay how we are because change is really, really uncomfortable, isn't it? And those divergent views are just so hard to manage. So, you know, some of the strategy you say might be around talking vision a bit more, because it's a culture change, isn't it? So, we perhaps, if we've got a lot of diverse views and people aren't able to come together around

preferences, we need to start re-talking or re-talk again, into vision, because we say that vision leaks. So, we might think that we've done the vision talk, but have we done it again and again and again and in a way that people can hear. And there's a bit about being respectful for people

“there too, because I think sometimes when there's a lot of diverse views, people don't feel heard.”

So, sometimes it's, you know, where are those views that are diverse coming from? Is it coming from a place of hurt or not feeling important? You know, sometimes it's what's your value, you talk to about values, what's your value? And if your values are around getting, you know,

well, then what do we need to do to do that? So, it's hooking into where what they value and and what their hopes and dreams are too, isn't it? But I don't know that happy medium is good, I don't know that happy mediums have you? I think everybody loses. We want to create win-win situations, start losing situations. And when we both have to give stuff away and neither one of us get what we want or what we believe needs to happen, then nobody wins. And so, you know, collaboration

is always better than compromise. And not, we don't, collaboration takes time. And so, you know,

it depends. And when we're talking vision too, it's one thing to talk vision generally. But, you know, the other piece is, well, when you're negotiating or working through issues with

“divergent groups and perishes, you need to talk very specifically to those leaders of people”

there about vision. And it's always better to start from a place of what's your vision. I know what you, I know what you want in terms of preferences you want this last time or you want us to do it in this language or you want this acquired to sing. Like, that's the what? That's not the where? Like, where are we trying to go? What's your vision? What's your hope? And let's align our hope and vision, but let's start by listening in those settings.

Like, yes, we have to speak it as priests into the, you know, from the Paul-Button Sundays when we're preaching. But when you're dealing with conflict, you need to figure out, you know,

first seek to be heard or to understand before being understood. That's a two-way street. Like,

really seek to understand, don't know where you're going to be able to do this. That's good questions and listen. But it doesn't stop there, it doesn't get rolled over. Now, it's like, now that I've heard you and I've summarized what I've heard and is that accurate? Now, is it okay if I share with you what I'm thinking? And the answer to that has to be yes or or not going to be able to collaborate. And so if it's yes, then we answer it. That's so that we

understand. But it all, it has to be a place of vision. And sometimes preferences come from a place of vision, but people don't know it. And so what do I mean by that? I mean, sometimes when people are sharing their preferences, sometimes not all the time. But sometimes there's something very noble in their perspective. And so it's easy for me to get frustrated because I don't feel heard or frustrated because I don't agree with what they're saying. But if I can just push

down or just acknowledge inside that I'm feeling frustrated, but can I be curious? Can I replace frustration with curiosity and then seek the what's noble in what they're saying? Oh, are you saying this? Because of this or how many understand why this is so important because I can hear you keep saying this. But why is that so important to you? Because it probably comes from a place of love and nobility. Even though I'm finding it irritating because we're not agreeing. But if I can see

their heart, it often can change how I listen and also how I present my perspectives. And so

“it's complicated. That's what that book, crucial conversations is so important. But vision”

and mission is so important. Purpose is so important. And I love what you added to that. I mean, listening is so important. And I can be, you know, I work best in teams because people need to remind me that sometimes sometimes I can be so outcome oriented and so driven for results

that I push through things in ways that make people feel small. And I'm never proud of myself in

those moments in those times. And I need people around me to help me realize Ron, you just want competitive again. And we lost them in relationally. And so yeah, I don't want to be that guy. I don't like that on that guy from time to time. But if I'm honest with myself, that's how I can be in conflict sometimes. And I think that's partially myself awareness is so helpful. But hopefully that helps strike great question. Good question, isn't it? Next question, as a good team member, we often

feel that we need to abide by all the decisions from our leaders. How and when do you decide whether to keep quiet or air your oppositional views? I guess it depends on how important it is. Isn't it like, you know, if it's not that important then? Yeah. If it's a life on the edge of the old, a cough, is that worse? Right now, I mean, the grandmother likes to at least I don't, but if the church does I can live with that. And so you're right, yeah, depends on how important it is.

“You know, I remember being at a leadership conference in the UK one time and I think it was”

negumble that was talking about people have to dissent three times. Like, so if you have a opposing view and you feel strongly about it and you feel like it's needed. But then I expect you to disagree with me. Like, I need you to disagree with me. Like, I depend on you to disagree with me. And so and they have a rule that you have to do it three times. And after the end of that three times,

And I've done that all kinds of times in the leadership team. It's very vibrant debates,

“but some realize I'm just not going to win this one. They're not seeing it the way I'm seeing it,”

even though I'm passionate about it, even though these are my values. And I thought we shared these in common. It's like, no. And so then I have to decide, like, you know, this is going to rack a friendship or I have to eat this one and just trust their discernment. And to be honest with you, a lot of times, especially in a team environment, when I eat it and trust their discernment, nine times out of ten or maybe ten times out of ten, they're right. And I come to that realization

later. And that's where group wisdom is so helpful in leading. But then there are also times, and this has happened to me in my lifetime at times that what I was feeling was, it was a value. And I wasn't willing to let go of that value. And I felt those are shift in values in the organization. And so now I have a decision to make. Am I going with those values, which is okay, because there's nothing wrong with those values, perhaps, or maybe there is depends on how you're

looking at it. But sometimes I'm God's convicting my heart. And the very people that you go on there's journey with, all of a sudden, aren't the people you're going to go on the journey with further,

“and you have to decide, either you're going to be a part of the problem, because you're going to”

nag the daylights at everybody. And then they're not going to appreciate you as much, and that's happened to me before. And then just realizing that, oh my gosh, this is my problem, not theirs. And sometimes you do have to step away, because there's a misalignment of values. And that's not abnormal. And it's okay. It doesn't feel okay. It's hurtful and it's hard. And in the times that that's been a part of my life, that's been a very trying time. I've been very blessed that people

around me that I can talk to and discern with and mone with and belly ache with and feel sorry for myself with, but also to pick up and recover and pray. And but sometimes there's a natural time to, to, to depart, which can be really hard if you're in a parish, because you don't necessarily want to depart from a parish. Do you? And if you, I've seen it, I've had to do it. If you had to, I've had to do it. And I've had friends have to do it. And I knew how, how awful it made me feel,

and I watched how awful it made them feel. But if there's a misalignment, but you don't do that perhaps without trying, isn't it? So, try to keep the relationship. And, and how, and where's that kind of happy, not happy, I'm using that word, happy medium. But I don't mean that there's a balance, isn't there, between being a squeaky wheel and being a bit of a pain in the back. Yeah. And so, how, and I think this question is around that, you know, how do we decide? And I think

the talk that, what you were saying there around value seems to be at the core of that decision,

“isn't it? Where's the value there? Is this something I can let go? Is it important enough?”

Pick your fights, maybe. Yeah, pick them. And again, it's always helpful to make sure that we're

on the same page with vision, because you said it earlier, vision leaks. It really does. I remember working with the pastor one time, and, and working with a coach being coached, and the coach said to me, Ron, you're off the church, visionary. They can, no, I'm not, because the person I worked with is way more visionary than me. So, no, I coach him too, and he is visionary, but both of you are really high. And I remember saying this to the pastor I was working with, he saw those visionaries.

And the pastor looked at me and he said, yeah, you're the one who's always reminded me what the vision is you won't let me forget it. I didn't even know I was dealing it. And so, so again, getting some coaching, getting some insight, getting some tools, getting some help to understand

this stuff is helpful, but to always deal with the conflicts in the through the lens of vision

and purpose, because sometimes the conflict that you run into is because one or the other, whether it's the pastor or the bishop or, or you as the team member, you thought, you know what the vision was, but the further you go down the road of that vision, the more you see gaps. And I see it all the time and coach, I see it all the time. So, we're constantly addressing vision in the context of conflict, because what people thought they were heading down to do in the language that we were

using, they're different understandings of that and the further you go, you'll see people not willing to go any further and, and that's normal and sometimes they kind of get off the bus at that point and somebody else comes on, but we've been talking about this so long I haven't forget the question. So, what did we move on to the next one then? So, the next question is, how do you deal with people who speak negatively towards other people in the ministry?

Brisbane and did that talk with the Bishop's Conference about culture and health versus

toxicity, because we have to decide what kind of a culture do we want to have in this ministry? What does health look like on what behaviors support health, what attitude support healthy teams and list it with your team? And then also, once you've exhaust at that list, come up with the other list of what are some attitudes and behaviors that undermine health and make a robust list of that and then agree that, you know, because culture is created by what we're reward and

“what we tolerate. So, you need to define health and you need to define toxicity or what underminds”

health. And if we do that as a team, those are our words. So, there are concepts of our ideas

and we can just agree that this is what we're going to work hard towards, but all of us can be

toxic and undermine health from time to time, but let's not tolerate it from one another. And I'm sure chronically chronic complaining and backbiting and gossiping and stuff falls in the negative category. And if you have somebody on your team that's like that, if you're like that, on your stinking behavior and stop it, apologize for it and ask for help. If that's one of your areas of sin and weakness, it's okay, it's not fun, but sin isn't fun, but ask other people to help

you and to stop you from going down that rabbit hole, like take ownership of the way you impact others. And if you're the person that you're listening to that person, like if you have a vision for

“the culture you want to have on your team, and that's not it, then you need to call that person out.”

And or, you know, go to the later and ask them, this is what I've noticed. I've talked to them about. They're still doing it. I find it's really hard on the team. Have you at that? Have you had the conversation? And if it's the person is actually leading, then have the conversation with them. This is what you're doing. This is what I'm seeing. I know you're frustrated, but your frustration lived out like this is having a negative impact on all of us. And as a leader, you need to be big

enough to own that. How can I help you? Because it has to stop. But again, this is where a vision for the culture of a ministry is so important and nobody can violate it. I know when when I was that same band of parish and we did that, we had that conversation because our culture was so toxic. It was horrible at about year four. And I'm not exaggerating. He was terrible. But then after that conversation, we need to be able to call each other out and that includes me.

So I give you permission. I need your help. So don't want to be that guy. And I got called out more than everybody. And I wish I was joking. And I had a decision to make him. I'm going to get to fence him. I'm going to justify myself. Where am I going to listen? Oh, you'll receive what I'm hearing. Apologize and ask for forgiveness. Because if I can listen, only what I'm hearing. Apologize and ask for forgiveness, then we're going to grow and trust. And I'm going to become a better

leader. Or do I just want people leave me alone and tolerate me? Well, I inflict myself on others. And a lot of leaders do that, but we have to stop. And so I don't know. I don't know

“those things help. What do you think? I think the negativity once we start there, it does,”

as you say, become a bit of a downward spiral and catching ourselves as really important. I think it's back to the vision thing again, isn't it? Who do we want to be? Where do we want to go? How did Jesus treat other people? You know, trying to respect other people to value views? And when we understand, when you were talking about strengths before, when we understand people's strengths, sometimes the negativity that we can feel towards people can be because we don't

understand where they're coming from. And sometimes understanding where they're coming from, if we are the person that's feeling negative or sane negative things, you know, getting to know that person a little bit better and falling in love with them a little bit more, you know, and loving what it is that's strong about them. And then being willing to call people out, I just think is really important because back by teen and fighting amongst, you know, kind of sane, unkind things

around each other inside our ministry is not an attractive way to be church. People aren't attracted to communities like that. And I think we all do it, I know I do it myself and we really need to, as you say, call ourselves out in that. It's like a cancer, isn't it, that eats away

at relationships? And it's always easier to see to others than it is in ourselves, right?

brothers and I know we're all guilty of it and it's just such a human experience. That also

say with that, like, yes, that strengths in terms of knowing other people, but also our values often come from our strengths and careisms, but if we don't know who we are and why we're so passionate, oftentimes we're passionate about things we don't even know why. And so our own lack of self-awareness can be part of the problem. And to your point, when we do know those careisms and strengths, we can have better conversations because now we have a language

with which to clothe them in. And that's part of the problem we often don't have a language. So in the absence of a language and with the absence of understanding, we judge and we

criticize. And you know, I have positivity as my second strength theme and one of the things

of people with positivity, hate their number one pet peeve is negativity. And I can be negative. You know, if I don't feel hurt, if I feel hurt, if what I believe is our vision is feeling threatened, I get very defensive. I can get, I can behave in ways that I'm not proud of. And and that becomes chronic or more consistent than I don't even like myself. And I can guarantee that people around me aren't enjoying it. And so, you know, and I don't know if we, you know,

I think a lot of people have been there before. And so that can be two things. One, in some instances, it means I have to have the courage to have better conversations. And maybe if I keep going at it and not getting the results, maybe I need to get some new skills to come at it differently. And maybe I need to talk to people, get some advice. And or sometimes it's discerning, is it time for me to step away? Is this, this actually isn't a good fit anymore?

“And as hard as that decision can be from time to time, if that's the truth and if that's what”

God's are veiling to you as you pray with it and get some discernment with some spiritual advisors, some friends, when you make that decision, it frees you up to do the very thing that God has for you next. And so sometimes I think we hold on too long to things that aren't working. And it is time to go. And you know, because some of the things that ALS, we can't control. And if it eats us up and makes us behave poorly around others, maybe it's time to discern, prayerfully, if that's

still the place for you. And so it's tricky. There's no right answer to that. It's not an easy decision. True. And that kind of blends into the next question, actually, which is our last question. Our, this person writes, our parish is full of jealousy between volunteers and there is a culture of jealousy in the parish, especially amongst the people who are serving together. So you can imagine all that negativity floating around. Many people have been in their ministries for a long

time. And as we're moving forward in mission, we're starting to invite new people in and that's leading to a lot of issues. And so this person says, "I'm trying to change this jealousy with formation." And I'm not sure what they mean by that. Is there any other way that you can

“recommend to help us to avoid this very un-Christian behavior?”

I think that's very Christian behavior, because I see it in every church. I don't know what you can even see it in the apostles, couldn't you? When they're saying to Jesus, you know, he's going to sit on the right and he's going to sit on the left, like it's a very Christian behavior, very emotional. I think Christians are incredibly flawed. You and being said, have happened to love Jesus and are trying to surrender their lives and be better people. But I think

Christians know full well. They're sinners and they're flawed. And so it's actually very Christian behavior. Not desirable behavior, but we see it in Christians all the time. Yeah, how do you stop that? It's hard. And again, I've led to a ministries like that. And I've supported ministries. I've supported people who support ministries like that. I remember specifically going into one meeting, because the

first in supporting this ministry was really having a hard time with those types of attitudes.

And so I said he called them all together and asked if I would come and speak and I did.

“And I was, I remember not sleeping particularly well that night before. I wasn't at my best.”

And so I can be fairly straightforward and blunt at the best of times, but it really didn't notice that. So take that with no sleep. That's not me at my best. And when ended up happening was the pushback. And it was was a very simple ministry that anyone could do, but people have been in a forever and was saying, be great if we can take some people that are coming through alpha and coming into the church and give them places where they can serve. Because then they

period of time, maybe you can be training and racing up these people. You're trying to move me along.

“I'm not going anywhere. I'll be doing this ministry to help them dead and you can't make me stop.”

And it was like, wow, that's an awesome attitude. And I don't know that I was particularly my approach was great. But I guess what I'm saying is I understand it, I get it. But this is where organizational structure matters so much. And some people we actually have to pull out of ministry if they have a, you know, because not every, another assumption is we assume that everybody's healthy. It's not true. Like, yes, there's our strengths, yes, there's our care

systems, but then there's also our mental and our emotional health. And some people are dealing with untreated mental illness or personality disorders. And they go to church and that's great. God loves them. We love them. There needs to be space for them. But they might not be suited for ministry. And if they're attitudes and behaviors are ones that are destructive in terms of

“the mission of that particular ministry, then we need to remove them. I was like, well, that sounds”

very unkind. We can be kind in ways that don't jeopardize the mission of the church or the mission of your ministry. And so sometimes we've had to remove people from ministry because of their attitude and their commitment to their, their terrible attitude and their terrible way to do things. And it's not fun and it's not easy. But what I find is when you remove, remove that one person because it's usually only one person in a ministry. Then it frees all those up because those

other people follow them because they're often narcissistic and, and they, they wheeled a lot of influence that's negative. And people are afraid of them, even in the church. And boy, I'll tell you when you have the courage as a leader to remove people like that, it creates a lot of trust. And people are free to breathe again and actually strive for excellence. And so yeah, don't be bullied by people who are bullies and because a lot of times it's unresolved, hurt pain, love them, support them,

but remove them from ministry because their influence isn't helpful. And so, and sometimes we just

want to treat a group and say things to a group, we know full well who the problem is. And so,

you know, some of you say, well, that's not very Christian, really leading poorly. That seems

“that seems to be Christian too, but I think it's not helpful. We need to have difficult conversations”

and we need to always keep the mission in mind. And if an ego is getting in the way of the mission, we don't want to piece that ego. We try to work with it and so on, but if they refuse to move, then we have to remove them. And it's not a fun thing to do, but we've certainly had to do it many times. When I say many times. And I think one of the one of the hard things in parish tours is that there's in every parish there's good and beautiful souls that have been doing the same ministries year

in and year out for a very long time. And often they're saying, I wish that other people would come in and help, but then when, as this Christian saying, when we get somebody that can come in and help, they don't really want them to. So there's an unhealthy hanging on to the thing that I've been doing for a really long time. And it's not out of any ill will. It's ownership. It's love for what they've been doing. And maybe a lack of trust for the new person. And I've heard

you talk at St Benedict's parish and when you were there and other places where I've been this idea of apprenticeship culture. And so rather than bringing people in and replacing or bringing people in and just saying, now you've got to share this thing. Maybe this idea of in this parish we're trying to grow the next generation of people. Can you think of who the next lead is going to be and apprentice them a little bit and give them the responsibility for handing over rather

than foisting people on them maybe. And so get them on side with you to train and grow these new people. You've been doing this for so long. You're so good at it. He's Mary. We think that she would be really helpful for you. See if you can teach Mary how to do what you do because what

you do is so amazing. That kind of the way that you approach bringing new people. You can sometimes

make it. If they're amazing. But if they're not amazing, don't get that person to train. And next generation is the last thing you want. It really is. We have to train people up with people that are good with others. Like the people you want to doing the apprenticing. They have to be have the character, the disposition, the skills to actually raise up. And so yeah, I know what you mean. And it needs to be discerned because we really do need because again, if you stick me with a

is leadership capacity, I'm more inclined to back away. So we need people of influence and passion and joy. Mentoring and apprenticing. So yeah, just be cautious. But I love the concept of mentoring me. But the other thing is, I don't think age has as much to do with it as openness. I've seen

older people with unbelievable attitude said, I'm thinking, I hope you never leave. And then I've

seen older people with terrible attitudes and I can't wait for them to leave. But that goes with young people too. I've seen young people with terrible attitudes. Like, gosh, you're juck. And I've seen

“young people with great attitude. So I think it has more to do with attitude than age because I've”

just no so many people in their 70s and 80s in the church that man, I just want to be like them

when I grow up like they're amazing. But it has more to do with their attitude, which often correlates

to their openness to receiving the fullness of the Holy Spirit and falling in love and surrendering to Jesus. And so that has a lot more to do with the impact and influence those people have on their ministries. I would say then they're actual age. Yeah. Yeah. That's I don't know. That's my thought. I love people with great attitudes and I've met them at all different age and I've seen

“people with bad attitudes and they have all different ages too. And so I believe it's character”

and attitude that shapes impact in ministry more so than age. Yeah. I think that's all we have time for today. It's it's been so much fun. It has. And I hope this conversation like, oh, we say, I don't have all the answers. That's for sure. But I hope the conversation allows you, the listeners to have these types of conversations with your staff and leaders because it's really important. And please write to us and let us know if any of these things have helped

and it's so how in which ways and if any of them help you get breakthroughs, I'd really love to hear

“that. Wouldn't that be fun, Lorraine? Really. Certainly would be. Yeah. And I think another thing is that”

we're hoping to have some more of these types of conversations aren't they aren't we with questions. So if you would like to be notified of when these kinds of conversations are coming up or you have ideas subscribe to our newsletter. That's a really good way of hearing what's happening and knowing when these are coming up next. It's a really good way. So ticks subscribe and stay part of

the conversation. Great idea. I always forget to say that so that's so good. And I know we have a whole

team of people helping to discern the stuff and putting all these pieces in place to continue to bring value. And so yeah, join join the community and help us to put together some great topics and by adding your questions and comments. Thank you so much for listening. And Lorraine, great job today. That was fun to have that conversation with you all for to doing this again. Thank you, Ron. It's been a lot of time. I've been blessed to see all of you. Thanks for listening.

And we will see you next time. I want to encourage you as you lead this week be faithful to God and generous to others. See you next time and remember, if you're still breathing, you are powered for impact.