IMO Live: Swerving Through Life with Michelle and Craig

Okay, we're gonna do this. I mean, I lived in the White House. That was the first lady. That wasn't my plan at no training for that

Wasn't my idea Was not But we figured it out figure if I can be first lady. I can do a podcast with my brother

“This episode of IMO is brought to you by progressive insurance. Hello, South by South West London. How y'all doing?”

Oh, Reagan, I we are thrilled to be here with all of you A little over a year ago. We launched our podcast IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. My big brother. If you let me

But we launched it in South by Southwest Austin and that was also the first time we did a live event and we had so much fun

We thought we'd do it again here in London But just to give you a sense of IMO what we do it provides a space for Vulnerable and revealing conversations with some pretty amazing guests some of whom are friends of mine and mostly her And we talk about everything love friendship family Careers you name it. We've been there and we hope that by sharing our stories and experiences we might help

Someone facing similar challenges

“Or at the very least to give folks a little boost”

Throughout their day

And there aren't always clear answers

One of the things we say is that there's no one way to live this thing called life but one thing that we do believe strongly Is that Connections can help and that's really why we started higher ground production me and the the guy Barack Obama you've heard of him my husband We wanted to build a platform of programming that pink brings people together to explore different ideas and Perspectives on how to get through life and we are incredibly excited by several new podcasts that are joining the higher ground family

Talk easy, which is a cool program. Let me say this two young sisters talking about culture Stories from a stranger just to name a few

“shows that lift up a range of new voices and new ideas and”

Hopefully help people feel just a little at the slowly so today Craig and I are going to try something a little different We usually have a guest But we cut them out of the action So we're going to flip this a script and we're going to interview each other

You should be frightened So I'm not frightened of course But what do you guys think of that just me and him But first of all Craig Robinson, how are you doing? I'm doing really really I have not seen you in a couple of weeks Talk to you and also part of

So one of the fun things about doing this podcast is if we get to spend a lot of time together And we used to only talk to each other on the phone because we lived far apart and now We see each other all the time, but don't talk on the phone because we're like let's say that for the show But for anyone who's read any of my books Or heard me speak. I talk a lot about the power of swerving

Through life and careers being able to remain flexible and open to changes And I learned a lot of swerving from my husband He has set me on fun of path where I've had to adjust So he was my first swerve teacher, but one of my best role models in swerving is my big brother Craig because his career path As well as mine is anything but traditional

We've done a lot of swerving throughout our lives and so we're gonna talk about How we got where we are because that's one of the questions that we get often from people who trying to figure out their careers Who are trying to figure out life and a lot of them are wondering how did you guys get from the south side of Chicago from a working class background To sitting here and doing all the things that we've done over the course of our lives So Craig I want to start with you

Just so that people get a little sense of your career trajectory can you give folks a brief sense of what you've been doing in life to this point?

First of all

“Thank you all for being here. It's really exciting to be here and you should know I used to live in Manchester”

How about that? Yes, I Play basketball from what was then called the Manchester Giants? It was the start of my pro career and The real beginning to the swerve because when I was in college I'm old enough where I didn't go to college to be a basketball player

I enjoy playing but I never thought I could be a professional and then I got drafted by the Philadelphia 76ers

And next thing you know I was I was trying out for that team and when I got cut from that team I came to Manchester and played and I stayed I lived in Manchester for two seasons and Came to visit one year. That was my first trip to England. Yeah, that was your first trip to England and then While I was here um our team did pretty well and I thought you know

“I could be a basketball coach and I went back to visit me”

at Princeton and to see my old basketball coach and I said to him coach I figured out what I want to do

And he said I said I want to be a coach and he was like you don't want to be a coach

I'll tell you when to be a coach Go get a job somewhere and coach later and that's when I started my Trip into finance and I've worked in finance investment banking for quite some time and then after 14 years I switched back into coaching. That's when I started my coaching career and I did that for another 14 or so years And then I worked in the NBA in the front office the National Basketball Association

And I did that for about five years and then now I work at the Coaches Association as well as I'm a podcast host now. So that's a lot of swerving. It's a lot. How did you think about Who you wanted to be when you grew up? How did you process it? What kinds of things did you think about? So I processed it by the people and things I was around right so my early role models were my parents my mom and my dad

My mom was a housewife and my dad worked for the city of Chicago and then the other people around me were uncles and aunts and they worked as You know policemen

City workers educators. So I always thought that that would be what I'd end up doing

Because that's one of the things about figuring out who you want to be you know there's there's no Wayward taught that you know we just start making up things out of thin air. I know I used to say when I was 10 years old That I wanted to be a pediatrician. Yeah, but that's because I like kids. I mean you based things off of things like that And then when I was in Princeton and I was a pedophile or what to do next. I was like I don't like math

“I read I like to talk a lot. So I'll apply to law school. I mean that's how I picked going to law school”

Because there's really no Way that we teach young people you know as they're growing up. Well certainly how to think about it not 40 years ago 40 years ago 40 years ago it was sort of go to college and then most of our Parents and friends of parents didn't go to college. So it was like go to college and get a better job than what we got and that's

That's sort of what we did, but but me she you've you've had your share of Transitions Can you tell the folks what you learn from your transitions Well You know, I did some I tried to do the traditional checking the box thing because I was good at that, you know

I was a good student. I understood that if you got good grades you went to college from college But if you don't know what you're doing you go to grad school and I could check the boxes. I was good at that I could achieve in that way But if that wasn't enough because I had didn't have any experiences, you know, I mean I had summer jobs Baby sat did all that sort of stuff but when I got to the law firm and I worked at a big corporate firm in Chicago

What you were supposed to do after Harvard law school and I got to that firm great firm and I realized oh my god I don't like law I don't like it at all. It wasn't even close. I was but and thank you to all the lawyers. I mean No shade, but you know, it just wasn't for me and I realized I didn't know anything about the law

I didn't you know I only in my summer associate experiences, but that was very different because they were

“Coording you during that time and not giving you real work”

So one of the things that I learned through the transition is that gaining experiences are more important than I thought they were because back then in college We just went straight through and now I know that I encouraged

Million Sasha and I encourage a lot of young people do not go straight through. Don't be afraid to slow it down

And have some experiences if I were to do it again from college to law school or grad school I would have done a gap year or two and you were kind of leading the way. I mean Quite frankly your time and Manchester playing European pro ball was kind of like a really cool gap year Where you got some experiences just being out in the world and working and learning about what you liked What you were good at not just but not just what you were able to do well because that's all I did

I just pursued something that I could do well and I didn't know anything about passion or

“Purpose or and the truth is I didn't know what are the careers were out there other than the traditional careers”

You know you grow up you can be a doctor you can be a lawyer you can be an engineer

They're like six things and here I'm at Princeton Harvard in in my mind

I only know six things I can be and I think a lot of young people are limited Because you got to get out in the world to see what else is out there. So that's one thing I learned Was your decision to Go pro Scary for you. I mean because here you were at Princeton and there's the pressure

Especially in your class your year we graduated you were 83 I was 85 Economically the country was doing great, you know and if you got out of college a good school with a degree

“You were gonna make money you could pretty much write your own ticket which I know is not the same now”

At least where we live in our country. Um, was it scary for you to sort of see your peers going into Finance and all those things while you were gonna take this Interesting leap into Professional basketball. How did you think about that decision? So

Probably not how most of you think I would have thought about it because it was Scary for mom our mom was like why on earth would you go all the way over there to play just the play basketball And it wasn't scary for me because as I progressed in the sport and got better It was a dream that oh Okay, maybe I can play professionally. So I wanted to go try it and it's a tribute to my parents that

They never held us back because of their own fear

So as scared as my mom was They both were like all right go go and do it now's the time to do it so it was Not a hard decision Um, for me to make at that time Secondly because mom and dad

Encourage us to go to a place like Princeton as opposed to going some place else where you could get a good education My dad always Emphasize that One of the things you get from a good education Our options and the ability to try things which he didn't get a chance to do you know

When you're a black man from the south side of Chicago growing up in the 50s and the 60s You got the post office the army You know you have certain things that you're allowed to do You don't get to travel to be a basketball player or work at Morgan Stanley or some other bank so

I felt really comfortable And it helped that I came to England where everybody spoke English Just about and really really friendly really friendly so I have to mention that This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully

Between the endless stream of information social media and that constant

FOMO the kids talk about

“Do you feel like people are overthinking things more than they used to or is it just harder to make a choice when we have so many options?”

No, I think it's a little bit of both, you know, I think with so much information coming in We just have so much more to process and you know, there's only so much the human brain can take in And then yeah, we feel inundated with choices. We feel like there are too many options So yeah, I agree. I think it's a little bit of both. I feel that I feel that with your public image How do you tune all that out and actually make the big calls? Are you relying on the gut feeling or is it more about

Leaning on the people you trust?

Well, there's a lot of gut that goes into it. You just get used to making hard decisions. You know, you start to trust Your instincts, but most importantly is having a strong team You know learning to let go that I can't make every big decision. You know by myself and I shouldn't So I surround myself with really smart people that I can count on. I let go of a lot and trust that they're gonna You know do their job and bring me the information that I need to do my job. So I've just learned that it's you know

It's no victory for me to do these things alone making these big decisions alone as the kids say facts For me knowing I have a solid circle to talk things through is usually what helps me get clarity Progressive knows that big decisions at any stage of life can feel daunting

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and support to empower them in their housing journey I have to we have take a moment just give tribute to our parents You know there they were uniquely Gifted and pushing us to do things that they wouldn't do themselves and sometimes you know We're parents now and you know the hardest thing in the world to do is to let your kids try hard things

You know, I think a lot of People wind up picking careers because they feel the pressure of parents Wanting them to do something that feels safe and secure a story that I tell often is during Becoming book tour. I was I would do a lot of things and colleges and I was sitting with a set of Seniors who were graduating from Spellman College at a historically black school in the south in Atlanta

And this group of girls they were about to graduate They were excited but incredibly frightened about the next step because they were sort of like me They at box checked their way to a college degree and now Once they were done, you know Because you don't learn this is that once you get through with the box checking the things you're supposed to do

You're still faced with figuring your life out and nobody kind of told them that so that you hit they like many

“Young people hit senior year and it's like how do I figure this out?”

And this one year girl said my father wants me to go to law school and she's like but I just don't want to go and she was in tears because her father Who was probably like our dad just want it her to be safe? He didn't know that a law degree cost $70,000 a year. He didn't realize that she was going to come out of that degree with so much debt That she would be limited in making choices about what she wanted to do because she'd have to pay down that debt

And so I explained to her your dad wants the best for you because he's scared

Because we don't know what our kids are facing. We being us we still can't relate to what our sons

And daughters are going to face it's a different market. It's a different situation And so I find even with my girls today that I have to step back and not try to push them To where I want them to go. I have to trust that they know their own market and can make certain decisions Our parents will way ahead of the curve on that And I say that because I know that there are kids who are trying to

Follow the dreams of their parents sometimes to their own detriment their parents out there that are Really trying to push their kids to do a certain thing because it feels safe

“And part of life part of this thing called life is creating the optionality”

You know getting the best foundation you can get Which we both did by going to good schools and then you know developing some skills along the way I mean I didn't regret going to law school because Talked me how to write how to think how to communicate it gave me a level of confidence to just be able to go in any place and figure anything out Right those are the skills that were more important to everything that I do in the years ahead

Then simply just learning the black letter law So I think that our parents unknowingly and probably more knowingly They kind of knew that and so they let us they let us try hard things and Let me tell you when you when you've been working at a corporate law firm where where I started working

“It's Italy in Austin. I was making more money than both mom and dad combined so you imagine how they felt when I walked up to them to say”

I don't like this career Doesn't give me passion and purpose and I'm gonna leave and do Something else right and to have them both say All right, we trust you give it a try. Well, well, let let me just say a couple of things one

She didn't learn how to think at law school. She could always think oh, thank you little boy

She has been this personality since she was Three or four years old so Um and she didn't learn how to write there either Because you all should know that my little sister used to write these wonderful short stories that entertained our family And you think I'm talking about like

Jane ran to the market. No, these were intricate stories That were mysteries and funny and filled with Livelihood so she's being a little bit modest, but my heart did teach me something that it didn't teach about much So So how would you say our parents

Prepared us to be brave enough to do the kinds of things that you're talking about I always

“You know, I think about the fact that they they they they taught us how to think for ourselves early and and to own our lives early and by early”

I do mean four and five and I mean my I talk about this our mother once we started kindergarten gave us a long class and said this is how you work it you're in school now It's your education not mine. This is kindergarten all and She's like, you know Learn to wake yourself up because no one should have to

Restful you out of bed to build your own life. Um, that was Day one and it went and it wasn't like we were shocked or scared. We were like, yeah, give me a warm clock. Yeah, yeah, look at us You know, so a lot of what mom and dad did was hand us our lives early and in appropriate ways, right? It wasn't like my mom was asleep and bed while we were going to school, you know She was up, but she wasn't gonna come and be like, only you will wake you awake. She'd wake for that alarm and it's like

Okay, let's see how you do it and then she sent me off to kindergarten by myself around the corner. I was like lady I'm I'm five She's like you can do it But the the beauty of our Parents handing us our lives. It was them showing us that they had confidence in our choices

We tend to do the opposite if we helicopter a bit too much if we're trying too hard to Prevent our kids from failing or feeling fear You know what tends to happen is that you're kind of sitting signal linked to them that you you can't do this without me You know And our parents were like no you can do this

This is just life and everybody does it and you're pretty smart kids So you'll figure it out and that came to everything from Working out situations with teachers that were unfair, you know to clashes with friends and that's very different from how people parent today You know everybody's trying to

Curate their kids experiences and and ours was just not I mean our parents did not Feel like our lives were theirs to manage or to make better or worse I mean look we had food on the table and lots of love and lots of attention but Like some parents I know they weren't writing on our highs and lows, you know Our A's our grades were our grades, you know our failures were our failures

They were there to help pick us up and add a boy and push you right back out there We could talk about anything but we were required to Figure things out and go to them for counsel, but not for Intervention and so you know you leave home Having practiced those skills and you start thinking

“At a very young age there isn't anything I can't figure out I got this and I think that what about you?”

No everything you said the the one thing I'll room I'll I'll say to you folks is our parents always

Had room for our voices at an early age at the kitchen table when we had meals We were expected or we were allowed to voice our opinions and that was really important at an early age and and to me She's point about advocating for learning how to advocate for yourself My dad who was disabled I'm sure everybody those of you have read my sisters both know all the stories

But he walked with a limp and that got progressively worse As we got in and he had and if we found out he had MS but

He wasn't an unhappy disabled person and he always talked to me about

Finding something you'd love doing and it won't be work and he did that at an early age so I was I was getting it hammered in to me. Let me figure out What it is that I love doing and and and again, I said this earlier our parents never

“Let their fears get in the way I remember going to my first basketball tournament when I was 12 years old”

To popular bluff Kentucky in a van with a coach who was 19 years old and my mom was like Yeah, go ahead and then I found out that she was so nervous That my dad had to comfort her and remind her that I'll be back in a few days, but it's it's not the sort of helicoptering that you see today When you decided to get off the basketball track okay and go into finance and then leave

Talk about how scary that was and how risky that was and why it was so for you Yeah, so that was the scary point because I took a job in finance when I came back from playing basketball solely because it was the place you could make the most money growing up poor like we did I was like all right, I'm gonna use this Princeton degree and I'm gonna get the job that I can get and get paid right and I was doing that and I was off on my way

“As you remember on the partnership track and it was time for me to move to New York or maybe even London”

This was back when Morgan Stanley first moved to Canary Warf over there and now I haven't been back in 40 years, but I know a lot about it

And you he was living you were living large yeah, I was ridiculous had the red Porsche

It wasn't you know it was a fender bender, but she was picking me up from the airport and somebody ran into her and she ran into somebody

“And all we were doing was sitting in that Porsche going all man”

So he was he was Mr. Corporate. He was he was a finance bro and But what I realized in that is that because you know when you grow up poor you think money fixes everything, right and I learned Now that my ex wife it it wasn't The means to happiness and So I'm making this money and doing well in my life doesn't feel like it's where it's supposed to be and it's because I'm not doing something

I love and so I get this opportunity from my old

Basketball assistant coach gets the job at Northwestern University, which is in Chicago and he offers me a job as an assistant coach

Now you can imagine being an assistant coach as a as opposed to being a bond trader on Wall Street It was about a tenth of the salary and I was really Really nervous about making the change so I talked to Misha about it What was I doing at the time? Where was I in line you you had already got not of Long you had already decided to take a

And so and I'm and a pay cut and so here's the two of us going to our parents We're we're gonna make less money each of us every step we make less money

Our parents are just like oh

So so One story for you I I can't pull the trigger on this job because I've got an eight-year-old and a four-year-old and I'm thinking of myself As I told you their lives their lifestyles gonna change and so I talked to them both and I said I brought them together and I said You know daddy's getting a new job he's gonna be a basketball coach and they both looked at me like this And my eight-year-old said

Does this mean that your office is a gym? And I said yes, it does not quite it's next to a gym And my four-year-old daughter said They have a pool there And it was at that point that I realized I was worried about the wrong things I was worried about

Their lives changing and they could care less they just wanted to spend time with me so That allowed me to make that Swerve which was nerve-racking But again my mom said listen I get it you got custody of the kids

“You have to have a place to say come move back home”

You can pay rent when you can and I just started over again and what the lesson I learned from that is There's a couple one is Money eight the best thing all the time and Two is if you're not afraid to start over you can you can do anything and I will I just

Start it over it and it couldn't have I couldn't have made a better choice I just got back from London we taped an IMO live show. I had a little bit of downtime so I explored I did this Airbnb experience while I was there a walking tour around the city and it was one of those things where you learned something every five minutes We hit Trifolder Square and got the full story of Vice Admiral Horatio Nelson We caught the changing of the guards. We walked through Ben Franklin's actual house

Made it out to Greenwich the literal center of time and the city was already buzzing getting ready for the King ceremonial birthday celebration Outside Buckingham Palace. Oh and random fact I couldn't stop thinking about those stripes on American Navy uniforms Direct nod to the British Royal Navy yep

“Now here's the thing that got me London was packed for this conference and I'm thinking if you live in a city that draws big events like this”

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And live fully. Mish what is one of the biggest swings or leaves of faith you've taken professionally or otherwise?

I've had a lot of big swings. I mean, you know me leaving my job at the law firm Where I was making a ton of money in corporate law and deciding to go and work in government and public service

“Where it cut my salary in half and I remember how guilty I felt for going to mom and dad and even”

Expressing an interest to do something that I cared about rather than something that would make them absolute most money I mean at the time I was making my salary was more than both mom and dad salary combined I remember the first time I ever bought a house one of the biggest leaps you ever take I was really intimidated by the whole process progressive understands their hurdles first-time home buyers are facing

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Ali feed the obsession To empower them in their housing journey Yeah, the one thing about swarving is that it gets easier over time You know that first leap is the hardest Mine was when I left law and

Decided that I you know, and I had to figure out then if not a law lawyer who do I want to be And I had to start over and figuring that out. I had to start that process and what it was going on in my life at the time was that dad had just died And one of my best friends from college died suddenly of lymphoma and I mean by suddenly she was diagnosed in December and died in May and this was a young healthy, beautiful girl

“And it made me stop and think oh my god life is short and it is unpredictable and”

Nothing is really guaranteed and if I were to die tomorrow Is this where I want to be on the 47th floor of a corporate firm working for corporate clients Looking at my I could see the neighborhood where I came from from my fancy office, but I wasn't connected to it And I was like is this who I want to be have I even thought about it or was I just checking boxes And I thought and I also met Barack Obama at the time who was the master swarver because he did the opposite of everything

He had you know he went back to law not because he wanted to do the corporate firm thing

“But be well because he thought it would give him tools to help the community”

He had no interest in Supreme Court clerkships even though he was the president of the Harvard Law Review and that was the path so I was meeting other people who were showing me different ways of making decisions in life and We started dating and he was like if you don't want to do the law leap now I got you we're going to be okay And so I left to work in the city to work in city government. I was an assistant to the mayor then was in economic development

And with every move I just realized that I was walking more into my Into my reality into my truth, you know not being in sort of a sterile environment But being in the grit and the the scrum of of of city work and helping people and that that is what Got me up every day feeling really excited and nobody taught me that or teach a young people that in college You know nobody teaches you even the process of figuring that out for yourself

And that was an eye opener, but once I did that first leap

The others were easier, you know because number one I had freed myself from the financial belief in the same way that Craig did It took us longer to pay down our loans, but Pay them down we were able to pay them down and I hope this isn't so Disheartening to people that were saying money doesn't matter That people are leaving no

Like I'm on the run we're in the wrong seminar. I don't agree But it doesn't Look, you know the thing is is that it comes along the way, right like we're both doing well You know, but I try to talk to young people about one thing we learned with I'm a one of our guest Favorite guest was Dave Chappelle and he said something about because he lives in a little town yellow Springs, Ohio

in the middle of nowhere. It's as little dot a blue and a lot of red And that's where he grew up his parents were professors at Annie out college, but there's a small college in that town I mean, it's a farm town And I don't we're like we went and visit it because we did the interview out there

We did another live out there and we had an amazing time Dave Chappelle is one of the smartest people on the planet

Funny is all get out. Yeah, you come about for that. It was good But why because once he became himself he moved back bought a farm His raised his family on this farm and one of the questions was why why here And he said I want it to have the Financial freedom to be courageous and I was like, oh, oh bars bars

You know, and that's a truth. I think Craig is talking about which but I would say to young people and I say to my girls

“Live smaller than you need to you know, um, I know look I saw your face girl”

What you do you got laws It's not too late It's not too late

because I wasn't living small either he had a Porsche. I had a stop. That was first thing we got with nice cars when we got these big fancy firms

Big up big houses all of that. It was just and it wasn't happiness, but living small financially allows you to Stay free of the golden handcuffs because that was the thing I saw in my firm I was I was figuring this out. I would talk to junior it's associates senior associates and people were there Not across the board, but folks felt were there because

They got used to the money And everybody had a mortgage or a this or that and that led them to just stage

“Just let me just make partner and let me just do this because now I'm living up to the salary that I'm making, right?”

Um I didn't want to be stuck because Making choices in life because of the money To I tell my daughters get used to

You can build from anywhere and Craig, you know one thing a lot of people didn't realize that you knew Was that there's a hierarchy even financially even in coaching that you start out as an assistant coach You're working with kids, but if you make your way to division one coaching They make ridiculous money. That's way too much money that you were making As a coach, but on another note

the first the first leap is the hardest and

Keep yourself yeah financially as free as you can so me how much of Our journey do you think prepared us to be podcast hosts Can't together None of it now

“You know, I think it's that that courageous thing, right?”

The feeling that okay, I guess we can do this because we did all these other things The the bravery makes you brave to try anything at any age and I think for me I've just gotten used to

Okay, we're gonna do this. I mean, I lived in the White House. I was the first lady that wasn't my plan

had no training for that wasn't my idea Was not But we figured it out If I can be first lady, I can do a podcast with my brother

But but I think the Staying courageous and curious and open, you know And and vulnerable

“And willing to share I think the one thing that I learned through my journey was”

Like a lot of people just don't tell young folks stuff I mean, it's like why is so much of life a secret and why are we pertinent? I got it again You know and nobody's got it what he knows what they're doing And so I've kind of offered a lot of my Experiences up really is kind of like I feel like I have a responsibility having had opportunities and exposure

And to have sat at every powerful table there is I have seen it all Every table I've been at it and I feel like it's my job to come down from the mountain and be like y'all This is a mole It's not all that because there's so many people like me like you women Minorities folks who aren't supposed to be at these tables

Because they are sitting around thinking that they're imposter

You know imposter says I've never heard a white man talk about imposter syndrome

I haven't met I haven't met one who has felt it I'm just wondering if you guys know what we're talking about when we talk about imposter syndrome This feeling that you don't belong at the powerful table you're sitting in y'all are like no never felt it Never felt it

But it's you know, I think my honesty and vulnerability the kind of conversations we have in podcasting That's a good I think it's a good space to share some of these experiences so that we demystify all of life all of it in a marriage Raising kids what was hard I VF let's talk about it let's talk about it so that

people aren't growing up

“unaware of like some obvious things and mistakes and so I think you have to be willing to be”

vulnerable to be in the space of podcasting and I think my life has has prepared me for that What about you? I'm only in this because our team asked me to do it to get hurt and do it It is true it is true. I wasn't I you know, I was like I don't I don't need it I do have jewelry no, you know, the I like your brother will do it with you. I was like Really Craig. I love my brother. I do oh and that's sweet. He's my big brother

But pivoting to this pivoting to this was easy for me But you know one of the pivots I took in between Working in the in be working in college basketball working in the NBA I worked at ESPN which is Sports Channel. I forgot all about that. See, he swore for some I totally forgot about it So you forgot about it. You're broadcasting it seriously in the White House. Yeah, that's right. That's a weird stuff like that

So it it wasn't something that I had planned to do but it was one of those things where

And my wife says that we're doing this podcast and wife by the way, but yeah my second wife

Well, we want to clarify that

“We're honest who member he got divorced before or the Porsche”

My second wife get along really well. I get along with your first wife too. We crash we crash to Porsche together Yeah, I'm still mad about that But she says this because I just like talking to people which is true You know what's really been interesting about this pivot is that

I've been able to sort of culminate all the experiences I've had throughout my life and then use them philanthropically Because as me said early in the in her introduction You know, we get questions from our listeners and then can impart some opinions To try and help them and being philanthropic with our experiences is such a

It's such a wonderful feeling and people have been so gracious, you know You go through the airport you go I still coach in my kids and basketball tournaments people come up to me all the time and say how much they love the show

So that's been really good the second thing is and I don't think we talk about this enough

Because I'm used to being on teams You know having been a player and then gone and worked at at at at at you know when you think about Bond trading it's very individualistic So for a big part of my life I was sort of a soul Survivor out there and then I got back into sports and it's back with a team

You know working on this podcast is like having a whole new team in a Completely different genre than I've been comfortable in so I'm like the rookie on the team again. I mean we've got you know our staff is peppered through here and in the back They really are the ones who make the show for us They get our guests

They you know help produce us and It just is it's it's just is a really neat feeling and every time we get together It's like a reunion and so this is this has really been a pivot that's been a whole lot of fun and it's really nice to hang out with my little sister again And the the most remarkable thing is because I know how you guys look up to her

“That's how our guest star well some of you do right way baby”

And it is mind-boggling to me mind-boggling I mean there you know there's sometimes people get so emotional and I'm just like shaking my head like her No, but it's been really fun

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Head to wayfair.com right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less that's W-a-y-f-a-i-r dot com And coverage varies see mint mobile dot com What's been the most challenging part for you you know, I just think that the the pace we Stack up a lot of interviews at once because he works in their other commitments. So it's just

You know, so she said he works and then other commitments Well, he's got a real J.O.B. and in a traditional sense and I'm just rambling around the country Doing stuff but I have more more control over my schedule than he does So we you know, it's it's doing the work to be prepared for your guests to ever it is I mean the one thing I've learned in college one of the skills that I've brought along the way

That has helped me is first lady is is just preparing you know just being ready for whatever job

“You're doing and I tend to overprepare so I think it's really trying to”

Make sure I know enough about every guest about every aspect of them so that I can forget about any notes And then be engaged in the conversation when it happens so it's like talking to a friend that I've known All the time and I can remember ooh you said this one thing talk more about that and get into that You know, it's it's sometimes it's work to make things look effortless and so just making that time is Is one thing that

Takes up a little more time than I thought yeah, but it's good for me the most challenging thing is Keeping up with my sister's wardrobe That's hard You're doing okay. Look at his socks though He doesn't know that he should steam his jackets before he comes out, but we're working on it

We're working on it Nobody can see the back Yeah, spoken like a boy a non-fashion boy No for me it is Keeping up with pop culture

Is hard

“You know because which is just regular conversation, right?”

You know, I mean pop culture if it's not basketball That's you know, it's just can't be all sports. You know you got to know what the real housewives are up to You got to know and I don't know what the real housewives are up to I don't so he is left out of a lot of conversations on the podcast y'all

You know and The this third act

“And you guys are young out there. There are a lot of young faces, but I think there'll be some people here who understand”

You know that that that that next that

What for me and I do say this is probably my last chapter I mean From a career standpoint. Don't look like that I am 62 years old and you're older Yeah

62 our grandparents we're we could be grandparents, but we are not If we had sat down for a few minutes we could be grandparents. It's true. Yeah. Yeah, if we had slowed it slow down a minute, but I do think I have been trying to be very mindful in this next chapter And I might I get my staff all upset when I say this and we just lost our mom And one of the things that mom said my and our mom was very practical about life and all things and she's like I don't want to live

To forever old people need to die and get out. I mean these are her words. It's like we don't know what we're talking about We need to keep moving on and I'm just gonna be fine when I get a get older and you know

“She's been dropping dead for 20 years. She's like I'm gonna be dead and you need to be able to get yourself together with me”

Not here. I mean she's telling us this and we're 10 years old and I'm like mom This is scary, but When she was sick and getting worse she was with me for about a winner and it was clear that she wasn't That this was she might not recover from this and so we You know

Fortunately had some time to kind of all come to grips with the fact that mom wasn't gonna be here forever And even with her jaded And you know, stoic approach to things. I was sitting with her on the couch and we were watching TV And we just come back from doctors appointment didn't get great news and we were watching judge Judy As we often do as she did and she just looked over at me and said while that was quick

And I was like what are you talking about mom and she said life And I was like and she said nothing else You know like even this cynical sort of stoic woman felt like you know when you're living a good life It's fast And I I felt like that in our lives when you're busy and moving I mean these this last hit we've been out of the White House for 10 years

And I swear it went like that and Most people are my my my my daughters will be 28 and 25 this year I mean so my thing is like this next chapter I want to be mindful about it so that it doesn't just slip away I want to be clear about how I'm spending my time how much of it. I'm giving away to others what I'm choosing to do

You know how it makes me feel you know how the choices that I make are now Going to be for me not for my husband not for my kids not for the country not for the world

“Because this is it and at some point it's important for us our generation to step out of the way”

And be prepared to step out of the way So that the next generation really can sit in these seats So that means that this is

Our you know, this is our third act. Um, I don't know how do you think about your third act

Well, I wasn't thinking of it as a third act until everybody started talking about a third act No it It it's All the more important to reiterate what I was saying about finding something you'd love to do because It's it's not easy to do

It's not easy to find I should say and we have been really fortunate and Being able to do a lot of things But my sister

Always reminds me she said on one of our episodes she said you know we only have about

19 summers left Which is a lot of summers But it is 19 we're 62 that's about it that's not many but it's you know that so I want to start counting so I don't lose track Yeah, I don't want to waste a summer doing something silly Like dag one of my summers but just went to doing something silly so this now I'm count part of our lives and just we just

And our families are getting together way more often now it's just you know if if I could impart any opinions or advice to you is

“Don't sleep on this third act because they're that you know at this age we are not the same as our parents were”

We are vibrant and lively and Can still run around a little we're cool She's cool in an I am But we're cool

So it is just embrace the third act is what I'm saying because

The fun doesn't have to stop and The learning doesn't have to stop and you know people talk about they throw around this lifelong learner Term it's true The one of the best parts about doing this is that my brain has been re-energized I'm learning something every single time we sit together with one of our guests

And to the young people out there too because like all of this is is earned and has to be earned And so you know It's important to know that there was a process for us to get here and you know

In that process takes time and it takes some level of investment

Because even though we swirved one of the things I know you and I did was that wherever we were at the time We put 120% in what we were doing and none of it was a waste

“And that's what I want young people to understand that every experience”

everyone the bad boss the the boring assistant job the the job that you thought you weren't appreciated The one that didn't give you the assignment you wanted when you wanted it All of that is learning you know it's it's learning to be resilient You know it's like one thing that's important to learn is how to do something you don't like to do And be good at it, you know, I think a lot of young people they want to just now they want to do what I'm what I want to do

What I'm good at you you you got to earn that you know you got to earn you know

Carians and bags and Having some tough times and Having people treat you unfairly right and not giving you the raise when you think you deserve it, you know There's character building that comes that gets you ready down the line for, you know Being your own manager being your own leader, you know, so one of the things that

a lot of our guests say That are good at what they do is that they they are more enamored with the process Then the outcome and so I would say to young people enjoy Learn to enjoy the process Whatever your process is because it's that's where you develop the skills that then lead you to the things that you want to

Want to do you know the process of developing programs in the White House it takes time It took a level of persistence. There was a whole lot of backlash Was I prepared for it was Barack prepared for it heck yeah? We were from all the other things that we had done it's all it all leads up to being ready for the thing You don't even know that you're gonna do

So I want young people to be a little more patient in the process You don't have to start counting your summers yet

“You know you got a lot of them and that's the other thing. I look life is long. I mean we have had between us”

We've had dozens and dozens of careers, you know, it's like the ability to remake yourself is there If you're good at what you do and that's another reason to work hard is because you leave your job well You can go to the next one Everything we've done. I hope people say they were good at what they did you know So that we got the support and the encouragement to go to the next place even if you didn't like the job

I worked hard at Sidley in Austin. I had great relationships with those partners. They're still in my life Some of those people back when I was 26 years old are still people who respect me now and that's the kind of Investment that I think everybody here young people early in their careers wants to be thinking about making What are these people whether I like them are not gonna say about me in 10 20 years what are they gonna remember

But it's also it's the process

I don't have too much more to add I was good. It is time for we've covered a lot of ground This is something our team our team loves for us to do which I'm like, okay, I don't know whether this is gonna be fun for you Yeah, yeah might see my sisters a cramogen. I can't be this is we want to end on a bit of a lighter note

“And our team is written up some fast money lightning round questions. Oh, do I I think I lost mine. That's okay. I'm prepared”

I didn't do that on purpose of course. Why do you do where I swear? So we're gonna do some fast rounds to each other Or I maybe I'll do them both of us and since my card lost their cards But we're gonna name Some British favorites and see which ones are our. Oh here. I'm ready. Okay. Yeah. All right. So I'll go first. Okay Sausage role or fish and chips

Fishing ships. I had a plate got in late 10 30 fish and ships waiting vinegar Tartar sauce

Best thing and best thing. I mean it's always max fish and chips

American biscuits or British biscuits. Okay depends on oh It depends on what I'm doing but British biscuits are cookies and American biscuits are bread So I'm going British biscuits really Okay, all right. I know what I'm talking about. They still sell jaffa cookies around here Jaffa. Yeah, ah, ah, okay a little Mr. Manchester

Your next you asked me T or coffee T although I had a cappuccino because I just come back from Australia So I'm like I'm holding up. I needed coffee today Marmite beloved delicacy or edible prank

Edible prank

“What is it? It's like a batch of mine. It's what is that? It's like a spread right? What is it? What is in it?”

It's like yeast. It's a yeast bread. Why are you all eating yeast?

What is going on here and who was the first yeast leader?

Who tried that? It's actually good for your gut. What do you know? All right here pop at 2 p.m. on a Tuesday Concerning or community building I don't I don't think there's any problem with 2 p.m. pub. That's a problem. Assuming You got your work done and it's not happening every day. Oh, it's just Tuesday. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's fine

What's a spotted dick? I really what is it? What is that? I don't know what that is. Did you? What is it? A pudding. Like a cake. Okay. Is it good? Is it delicious? Is it like, oh no, isn't it? Is it yeast again?

“That's why I don't know about it. It's not delicious. I thought you knew.”

Okay, big bin or the London eye. Oh, is there a right answer to this? No, there is. Okay, let me guess what it should be. Big bin's been around longer. It's a historical feature. Where is the London eye is a ride? Is that pretty much? So you should care about the history and not the ride. Although the ride sounds fun. It's a fair swivel, right? Yes. Yeah. The London eye is a ride. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. Okay, you can only listen to one for the rest of your life. Elton John or Paul McCartney. So yeah, that's a hard one, right? But let me tell you Elton John was my mom's favorite artist. Yes. And for her funeral, he re-recorded it. It was a candle in the wind. One of her favorite songs for her. Oh, and love Paul. Hey, Paul, we're coming for you. Okay, we're running out of time. We'll do one more. Okay. You do it.

Like, but I forget because I'm American and we don't have beautiful language. And bloody, sometimes.

than the F word. Is it really? No. No, it's not. You just don't mean that I lived here. It was worse. No.

“I think the fact that anything can be brilliant. It's just brilliant. Like this time with you all. Brilliant. Brilliant.”

All right. London. Thank you guys so much.

It has been a treat. It's good to be back. We love you all. Thank you and to my big brother Craig Robinson.