Stop Being Scared of Fighting with Your Partner with Sterling K. Brown and Ryan Michelle Bathe

- You know. - Mass your question ever. - Yeah. - You could cut out of the podcast? - No, yes. - Okay. (laughs)

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Real for a second.

“'Cause I think Rhina had this conversation before too.”

If kids were not a part of the equation in terms of like, do you think that some of the tough times may have led to a separation that didn't? - That's a good question. - No, no, no, no.

Here's what I think. (upbeat music) - This episode is brought to you by SHIP. - Hey, you need a little girl. - Hi, Craig.

Craig, you Craig? - How are you? - I'm doing pretty good. - Yeah. - Yeah.

- Once again, still enjoying our new IMO set. - I know. - Feeling pretty professional here in our new studios. - It's great, it's great and comfortable. - Really comfortable.

- It is. - The offices look great and they're comfortable and the studio is comfortable. I mean, it's just incredible.

“And we're not even where we're gonna be.”

- No, this is just more to do. - This is just the beginning. Just the beginning. Speaking of comfort, where you stand this door out. - I'm standing in an Airbnb once again here

and really in a nice place that's about 20 minutes away. And listen to this, I had such a good customer service experience. - Tell me more. - So you know, we went to dinner, we had a family,

get together and went out in the last night. And Erin and I, my 13 year old, we get back to the Airbnb and the lock is one of these, you know, you gotta figure out what the code is

and the numbers aren't always the same

and I messed it up and I, we'd lock ourselves out. - Oh, you didn't know that? - Locked ourselves out, called the host. - Uh-huh. - Oh, he's like, oh, just give me a minute and he's like, hit a few buttons in the door open

and we were able to get in as, as I was about to panic that we were gonna be locked out for the night. - Ah, that's good. - Really good experience. - That's really good.

- Really good customer experience. So, well, I'm glad you're comfortable that Airbnb is still hookin' you up. - Yeah, yeah, they're right along with us, a great partnership.

So, you know, we're an enjoying it and really appreciate it. - Well, I am excited as always for today's guests. - And as folks can see, we've got two chairs here. So, before we bring out Sterling, Sterling, Cave Brown and Brian Michelle Bathay,

I wanna do a little bit of an intro for our newfound friends here. So, well, not so newfound 'cause you've met Sterling before, but we go way back. - Sterling is an Academy Award nominee

and a three-time Emmy Award winning actor. - Yeah, that's bad. - That's some tough stuff for brother, you know. He currently stars an executive produces the hit Hulu series Paradise.

And let me go on record by saying, you know me. If it's not a sports thing,

“I'm probably not gonna try and sit and binge watch it, right?”

- Yeah, you're pretty limited in the way. - Let me tell you, so, so we in preparation for this, you know what I try and do, I try and watch a... - You hadn't been watching Paradise. - I have not been watching Paradise,

but let me tell you the story, so. - Yeah, I'm watching it. - I'm watching it. - But it's so, as part of the research, I start to watch it, and I'm watching it,

and I'm like, "Huh, okay."

And I get to the end of the first episode,

and I was like, "All right, let me just watch, "we will quickly watch the second one." And then it was like, "Let me just watch the third one." And then I look up, and I was supposed to pick off the school, and I left the baby,

and she was like, "Oh, Jesus, have an eating. "Yeah, not Paradise, so do that. "It'll mess you up, mess your life fun. "You won't end." - I know. - You won't end.

- And it doesn't, it just sucks. - It sucks. - It sucks, you write in. - And you can't let go, and you mad at everybody. - And then, you know me, I'm a real snob, 'cause I was watching the first episode,

I was like, "Well, this is just your run of the mill, "so, and then it got right to the end of the day." And I was like, "Oh, okay, this is different." - Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, all right, but I digress, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

- Ooh, ooh, and Sterling has also started in an executive producer. He should be calling him Mr. E.P. when he comes out here. The acclaimed pool limited series, "Washington Black."

He is also known for his roles in this is us, American fiction, and the people versus O.J. Simpson, American crime story. Now, Ryan Michelle Baffay recently led the NBC drama series, The End Game,

and the film, "Boy in the Wall." - My girl.

- She previously started in BET's first wives club

and CBS is all rise, along with her husband, Sterling K-Brown.

- Can you imagine two actors? - We're gonna find out what that's like. (both laughing) Baffay hosts and produces the award-winning podcast.

We don't always agree with her husband,

Sterling K-Brown. - No, that's brave. - That are all brave. - Yeah, and not really. - They got me listening to this now.

- I know, right? - They're all in my feed here. - I know, right? - Sterling, and Ryan, please, come on. - Come on, we need to talk through this.

- And we gotta get, we gotta get Sterling a little bit more time to come out because he is injured. - Oh, there you are, I don't know. - Hey guys, hey guys, hey, hey, look at you.

Get settled. - Yeah, sure, sure. - Oh, man, are you okay first of all? - Yeah, you comfortable. - You comfortable.

- You need a pillow, okay.

“- Can we get you some, you need to be here.”

- It's a true honor to be in your own presence. - Oh, it ain't. - It ain't. - It's a real honor to be in your presence. - Oh, it ain't.

- Oh, it's a real honor to be in your presence. - Oh, it's a real honor to be in your presence. - My wife was very nervous. - Oh, she went through, how many, 50, 11 out, 50? - Why are you sitting on a wall?

- Why is this is how important you are to us, to the culture, what you mean to everybody. Like you have this, your sphere of influence

is immense, and powerful, and beautiful, right?

And so, thank you. Like truly, like this is a real honor, right? - It is, it's hard for me not to be like climbing your walls right now. Just like, like, like, like, like this is very good acting,

because you're doing great. - You are great. - You are great. - You're great. - You're great.

- Thank you. - This is gonna be fun. This is family. - Yeah, yeah. - 'Cause we already know all your business.

(laughing) - Yeah, just do that as we're bringing right now. - Why would you? - Look at that. - Here's your green side to be here.

- Oh, let's, let's hear how that sounds. - Yes. - What's going to happen to you? - Finish shooting season two of Paradise. - Thank God, didn't interrupt that.

- My youngest son is a basketball player, and so it's coach invited me to play like, in a coach's game. - And all begins with basketball. - All begins with a black man.

- Yeah, man. - And that's it. - And that's it. - And all begins with, and there was a basketball player. - And basketball player.

- And I see, if you had said you were out there playing golf

“for something, you should have been like,”

- It never happens there.

- It does. - And he's playing on the basketball player. - The sports that happens the most, because I've done two ACLs, and now they're a particularly situation.

- The ones I hear basketball, skiing, soccer, tennis. - Yeah. - Now I hear like the pickle ball people. - People, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- So power of practice, rich. - Yeah. - But it was, I was making a move to the left, like a, a knocky with step. I felt like somebody stomped on the back of my hill

with the spike. And I started yelling, I was like, "Hey, man, we stepped on my foot." And then like, what you talking about, man, I was like, "Hey, we stepped on my foot."

And it would be cool. And man, if you think it, no, I'm saying like, "Just keep it going, just apologize." And they were like, "Ruff." - Nobody's gonna do it.

- Yeah, that's it. - That is that moment when you're like, you know what happened, you're like, man. - As you've heard that story, yeah, yeah.

- I was over a game. I went to stand up, and then I was like, "Nope, I scooched my booty off for the corner." My team won. I stayed today on like, yeah.

- Because that was important. - That was important. - That was important. - And it was important part of the story. You know that urgent care, please,

you're talking about the other day. It's like Sunday.

“So what lesson have we learned from this experience?”

- It would be very late. - This is interesting. We had a conversation last night. When my wife was asking me, are you still going to play?

- The ultimate wife question after a dumb ass injury. - There you go. - So this is it. - Honey, are we still doing this? - This is what I reiterated.

Coach, you let me know how you feel about this. - Okay. - I'm a man of a certain age, right? I'll be 50 next birthday. - Baby.

- Baby, a total baby, right? Sometimes when you talk to people that have given it up, my experience is there's a pervasive mentality of like, I've gotten too old to do X, Y, Z.

I don't like the idea of getting older means that I've gotten old. So while I know I have to amend my game, I may have to do set shots, I may have to take it a little bit easier on defense.

I don't like the idea of giving something up because I think that that is a pervasive sort of mentality that I don't want to invade the rest of my life. - I like it. - Does that make sense?

- It does. - It does. - Don't know, it does. - Yes. - So, how are we about stretching?

- Very good. - Okay. - I stretch. - My education part here is like even more stretches. The older we get, the more stretching.

- What do you think about it? - I don't know. - I'm just gonna talk about what we get.

- I don't know.

- But this is what I know.

- These are for the television. - You were thought process about stop. - Yeah, no, it's a good one. It's a good one. - It's not faulty.

“You wanna play as long as your body allows you to.”

And there are master's leagues for guys who are my. - Okay. - Still playing. - Right. - You can play competitively as competitively as you'd like.

- Right. - Or as calmly as you'd like. If you're just playing three on three. - Sure. - But what I wanna tell my sister,

there is a finite number of games in everybody's body. - Right. - Get to yours. You have an Achilles tear. - Right.

- Some people get it at 49 and some people won't get it. - Right.

- It's, you cannot prevent what happened to slowly.

Stretching your nose stretcher. - Right. - I'm sure your doctor tells you. - Yeah. No, it's just one of those things. - You know, stretching is really good.

- The stretching is important. And also stretching too. - It's really good for you. - Got that place. - I'll see you in two of the life.

“You have been making this sort of adjustment”

in terms of how I run from landing on the heel to trying to land mid foot. And I also think that there's something about the tennis shoes that we wear, that don't allow the strength of the foot muscles

to be strong enough to necessarily support stuff. - I think my foot wasn't strong enough to support what I wanted to do in terms of, and I had to start wearing a thinner sole shoe. So as I do my recovery, I try to work with thinner.

So like when Rye works out, she works out barefoot. And I see like every time I do a little bit of the barefoot work, I'm like, I'll just hit different, you know, 'cause you're balancing the little foot muscles

trying to work them. And I think I need that as I get back. - You're very small homogen. I'm not at a gym barefoot. 'Cause that's nasty.

- That's nasty. - Thank you, Susanna. - I got a way to name it. - Isn't that nasty? - Yeah.

- So what, you know, we have a little homogen. And I started doing that for that same reason. 'Cause somebody was like, oh, it's about toe strength. But I was like, what, I don't know how to strengthen a toe. But you know what, you've got to use them.

- I'm pulling on a foot muscles. - Pull on a foot muscles. - God. - Okay, well then that gets us to... - And your marriage bed is under five, let's go.

- Oh my word, you can't do everything you can to you guys. You're just telling you now, I'm just telling you now. - We love it. - We love it. So tell us about the pod, yes.

- Let's start there. - How did this come about? - And how's it going at home after the podcast? - Oh, this is good. I'll take the same question.

You take the first one. - Okay.

- So the first, it's weird how it came about.

It came about because I really thought to myself, there have to be people out there on the right this was before before before. - So there have to be same people I can talk to. So I used to follow David French and a few other people.

I even googled, it was actually at the when President Obama was saying, don't argue with the trolls and the basement, like try to have face-to-face conversations. And at the time I was like, I'm gonna take that mantle and change my country and I'm gonna start with fight.

So I was like, there's gotta be somebody. I wasn't able to find anybody. I was like, I didn't look, I did, I did look, I did look, I did look, I couldn't find nobody.

“- Did you get to like, chicks on the right, is that?”

- I wasn't gonna give them, yes, it was chicks on the right, okay, it was like, right, chicks on the right. - There was chicks on the right, and that's who I found initially but then they kind of veered more and more right, right?

- Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. - So, and I even reached out to them like email because I was like, there's got this has to be able, we have to be able to have these conversations. And I was just convinced and I could not find it.

But I was like, how do we have conversations about things we don't agree on? Even while agreeing on our basic humanity. - Without them sort of devolving into argumentation but still staying in the spirit of like,

there's a given take. There's a conversation that's not like sort of antagonistic but like, all right. - And a real disagreement, like real, like I say on this side of the thing and you say on this side of a thing,

what it turned out, the only person that I could have. (laughing) - Well in some people can't have it with their partner. - Yeah, there are thousands of them. (laughing)

- But we've known each other for so long that I think, we've, and we've came up with such similarities. We were born the same hospital, we were both born to rare religious families, very close to our grandmothers,

but then there were so many things within that that were so polar opposite that we've discovered over the years that we can't, obviously, we can't change each other, but what we can change is, (laughing)

problem. But what we can do is learn to sort of live a little bit better with those disagreements. And so we were just standing around and, you know,

- We were in the middle of the strike and arrived

was also looking for-- - The act of strike, yeah. - The act of strike, yeah. - The act of strike, yeah.

“But we're still good, and I've always been sort of”

reddish, reddish, to work together. - Mm-hmm. - Because that's what they're reddish. - They're reddish, they're reddish, they're reddish. - They're reddish, they're like, you've been very resistant.

- It makes the heart very fond of you, you know. It's nice to go off to work and come home and be like, how was your day? - Oh, this was my day? - That's not true.

- That's true, say. - All right, right. - Well, what's your version of that? - You said, I don't want you annoying me at work. (laughing)

- Do you remember that Sterling? - That's so... - Remember that Sterling? (laughing) - That sounds right.

- That sounds right, but not like, I want to be... - I'm in a bad way. Oh, no, he's not in a bad way. It's like, you should have your space. - Yeah, I should have mine.

- Well, I'm talking about-- - I don't understand, man. (laughing) - My word is-- (upbeat music)

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She can anticipate that and her reliability always made me feel

like it's handled. I didn't have to worry. Misha, I'm curious. When you think back over your life, what are some of the moments that made you truly feel

comfortable and calm? - Well, probably my eight years in the White House for some of the same reasons that you described, you know, I was kind of like the head coach of the Office of the First Lady

and was so much on your plate, moving from one event to the next. I just didn't have the time or the capacity to worry about the details, whether we were gonna be on time. Who I was talking to at any given moment,

what the weather was, how it was supposed to dress. So I had to rely on my team and it was always a source of comfort to know that my team of people around me were on top of it making sure that I had everything

that I need so that when I entered a room, I could just be me. - That feeling of confidence is exactly what we're talking about. It's why I appreciate solutions that actually earn your trust

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Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. [MUSIC] So, but I also thought that the concept for the podcast was something that was really cool and it's sort of fit with the dynamic of our interplay. Like, we're very Beatrice and Benedict.

If you're familiar with much ado about nothing,

and just sort of like, there's a verbal sparring

that we have naturally, that is fun without crossing a line. Every once in a while, we both cross a line and after the podcast,

“we've got, hey, listen, man, do you have to stay here?”

[INAUDIBLE] [INAUDIBLE] Just sort of count it. When you're making fun of each other, but a good spirit sort of thing, but that's not meant to hurt. But just sort of laughing. Sometimes get serious.

So I'm doing it with the fellas or whatnot. And they're like, you look old, man, I say, you're mama old. And they're like, that's your wife, I'm like, okay. But that's just messed up, I said something to Ryan, just sort of messing with her to get it to go back.

And she goes, that's why your mama has ALS. And I was like, well, man, yeah, that's not true. Right. Right.

Right. Right. This isn't the thing.

This isn't the thing. I thought I looked at it. It was like, "Oh, what is it?" It was like, "I'm all down." Like, "Alright, this is the twinkle of the wing."

I think what you know that did happen.

“I mean, I had, I, I, I, I, I, I, I wanted to do it.”

It's like, I know a little bit, but it took you so many times. You were, you were, you were, you were, you were, you were, you were. What's your version of that approach? My version was that we were going back and forth and I had run out of things to say. And then, I did, I did read from that.

It's not that bad. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. It's not that bad.

It's not that bad. You're like, "Everybody's got a really bad idea to say." And I didn't want to say that. That's great. That's great.

That's great. I didn't want to say that. I didn't want to say that. I didn't want to say that. Everybody go home.

Everybody go white for tears. Oh, no. But don't get back to five. You're just, you're just, you're in the room. Oh, yeah.

You're just doing it with each other. Yes. You're just in charge of it. No, they're just like, "Oh, you know, we can't play with mom. Mom goes dark."

She goes, "Oh, mom! You're mom doesn't want to play." We're going, we go. We go. We go. And, we're going.

And, we're going. Get out the shovel. Start. She's got out the shovel. Oh, man.

That's a good one. This is great. Oh, man. So I said, yeah. That's really good.

We have to tell it. Dynamics. Yeah. And I also would say that because we know each other since 18, we'll be celebrating 20 years of marriage in March.

There are things at this point in time, and I like that we can talk about. That we probably couldn't have talked about earlier in the marriage, but without it feeling like we were reliving it. We can recount it now without reliving it. So, it was the right thing.

Yeah.

“And, like, I think you mentioned this on the podcast, where it's like,”

you want to sort of give a vulnerable and real portrait of something that, you know, you, we can't ignore the fact, "Oh, goals. Oh, look at that." And it's like, you see a certain thing, but it did feel like there was a responsibility there. There's somewhere that we were like, okay,

Yeah. We can really talk about, you know, the ways in which we struggled, and the ways in which we didn't struggle, and the things that came easy to us, and why, and the things that came difficult to us, and why, so that people really didn't, you know, really don't think that it's just a,

I woke up, I found myself me, and every day is just... Yeah. That's right. And all right. Because I don't you find that couples quit too soon.

And I, we've seen this in young people, now everybody's young, right, to us, but new couples. And part of the reason why I talk about it being hard is not because I don't, but my husband and we have a wonderful relationship. We've been married 30 plus years.

Some works, right? But if you don't let people know about the tough times, then I think they quit too soon. That's right. It didn't work. And then you quit too soon.

“And that's why I say things like, you can go through 10 years,”

bad years, right, in a 30-year marriage. Yeah. And that's still great odds. It's not a bad tip, you know. And every time I say it, people are like, "Oh, Lord, I can't do tip."

But if you were to play the odds of, like, if you could have 10% of heart

for 90% of wonderful, you would take that every 1,000 percent.

And that's really the point. The point is that in any long relationship, there are going to be years, months, hours, long periods of time. If you add it all up, we're things just don't feel right. You don't quit on it.

You know, sometimes that means you dig deeper. And if you don't dig deeper, you miss all the stuff on the end. - Yeah, you know. - Massive question, I would be cut out of the podcast. - No, yes.

- Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

“I'd like to think not, here's what I think.”

Sometimes without kids, some of the tough times wouldn't happen, right? And this is why I say, look, it's great when it's just YouTube, you know? And because there really isn't challenges

with division of labor, because everybody can be their own individual people. You go off through your movie, yeah, yeah, yeah, we have our separate lives, and then it's romantic. We get back together, the thing that makes that harder

is when those beautiful, wonderful, lovely kids that we all want to love, they show up. Yes, ma'am. With their own agendas, you know, with their own needs,

and now it's the first major joint project

that you have to do together. And that's when the hard starts.

“You know, so I think a lot of our hard was because of the kids.”

So we love deeply, but I think without it, without them, you know, a lot of the hard things don't come up, right? 'Cause you could, you can go to the gym all you want when there no diapers to be changed. You know, you can do whatever you want.

You're not just who's driving, you're not going to talk to them. Do you know how to make a dental appointment? Do you know where they go to the doctor? Do you know their doctor's name? You started it, so don't you? - You're trying to print.

- All right, no. - What do you got to say, no? - I will say that, see, I've been married twice. - Okay. - And hopefully that'll only be twice. - Don't say hopefully. - We're got you. - You haven't been in the day. - No, you haven't been in the day.

- I'll say hopefully. - No, it will.

It will be, but I will say the difference between the first

and the second was that because the first marriage didn't work out, the second marriage I really intentionally talked about, ground rules before getting married. - That's good. - I mean, look, athletes devote careers to a jump shot.

Shoot, shot, a shot, you're very, here's the years and years and years and years. You have a one bad argument, you have one bad year and a marriage. And you're done, or you have three bad years and you're done. And look, the level of muscle that Barack and I have in our marriage

And it's only gotten better.

“And I think that's the point, it gets better.”

And then if you quit too soon, you'll rob yourself of the success of the better, the work that goes in. And we've been married 30 years, we're healthy people. We could be married for another 30 years. That's a long time. - Yes.

- And it could be 30 years of absolute bliss, you know? Because we've done the work, we've gotten over the hump. Our kids are grown, they're out, we're looking at each other, like, hey. Remember you, now I'm not mad about anything. Because I don't need you to do anything for me.

- You guys are ahead of us, too. I want to ask you this question, I have questions for you. Are you guys actually on our podcast right now? - This is, every once in a while, we have these moments about emptiness thing. And the joint venture that you're talking about,

and how much time and resource that you spend on these both two people, right? And then the idea of what happens when that project is over, and have you neglected the time that you need to put into one another, because you've been pouring into these two beautiful people? Like, did you look at each other like, oh man, now we got to do this again?

Or do you feel like you prepared yourselves knowing that the nest was about to be emptying, be like, alright, how are we going, we need to make sure that we are straight in this moment?

“- I think we're still developing that, part of ourselves, right?”

I mean, our youngest graduate, well, she went to college. She's been out for five years, right?

I'm my math is always from college, fine.

- When I say, leave left for college, okay, right? Because that's the beginning of the leaving, right? Like you packed your bags and you're not going to be living here for nine months, that's a good one. - For sure. - It's a good start, right? - Yes. - And then I go in the suitcase.

- Oh, wait. - I just want to talk. - I just want to talk. - What's up, hey, you haven't even gotten through the teen years? - No, no, you're there. - No, you're there. - There's no spread, I'm sorry. - Right? - They're with, we have the front end of the world, this beginning of the story. - It starts, you know, you'll be ready when it's time, okay?

- That's annoying. - Yeah, you're going to be ready, you're going to be ready. But I think it's a new phase for us, which takes time. - Sure. - It's going to take, like, we're at a new phase of life. My husband did the hardest job, he reached the top of the thing you could do. Now he's got a, he's got work to do, individual work to figure out where am I going to be?

What do I want to say? Who do I want to be? I'm doing the same thing, right? That's a whole new assignment, right?

“That you have to factor in to the newness of, now we're doing this, we're back to just me and him.”

It takes time, is all I'm saying, all of these new stages take time for adjustment. When you guys had, when the boys were infants, you know, when one was just coming out of diapers and that's a whole new phase. When, you know, you move from everybody's in a crib, people are walking around. Like, that's, that's a change. The whole nature of your interaction with your partner. - And it takes time to, we think this stuff, this is like really hard, complicated stuff

that you are negotiating with another person. All I'm saying is like, it all takes time and to think that there aren't going to be bumps along the way of each of those phases. - Yeah, right? - This is, okay, wait, so this is interesting. I love this conversation. This is wonderful. This is wonderful. Thank you so much. So in my mind, like the question is, for the listener, in terms of navigating tough times, Craig had being on a second marriage now,

when do tough times become a step too far? What is the deal breaker? Like Ryan, I say, for most part, it's like, there are no dealbreakers for us. There are just things that we have to negotiate. There's things that we figure out. I say a rather crude thing about, if you did this very bad thing to me, do you want me to say it? - No, I do not want to say it. - No, I do not want to say it. - There's me. Oh, okay, okay, we don't want to. - It's psychological humor. I want to go into it.

- Okay, it's funny, but it's not. - It's funny, but it's not. It's not, it's the literal. - Yeah, okay. But I was like, if you did this awful thing to me, that would be the deal breaker,

right? And it's, it's really something that she would never do. - Okay, right?

- I think, and now I can imagine what I deal, what you're talking about. - But my question is, then, in terms of navigating these difficult times, right? For people who are also in the midst of difficult times, who are probably asking themselves, what's the difficulty that's too much? Obviously, if there's anything that's physical that's transprying with inside of a relationship, don't stay in some sort of abuse. And I would say even verbal psychological, physical, etc.

Abuse is not something that is meant to be intolerated. Outside of that, I'm curious, like,

or everything is meant to just find your way through? I'll start, please. - Because I will say now in my relationship with Kelly now, they're probably no deal breakers for me. - Sure. - She might have some, but there's probably nothing for me. We could probably work through anything that I could think of, aside from your scatological, but I think we can make our way through it.

But I wouldn't have said that when we first got together. That's years of work,

that's years of talk, that's years of both going through our own difficulties and coming out of it, and together having difficulties and coming out of it. And you just emerge at a different level of

“understanding, a higher being, a higher, just at a higher level of understanding. That's how I feel.”

- Sure. - It would really have to be something that I couldn't have seen coming that was so bad, but then I would be so worried that what was I in this relationship to make you want to do something that bad? I got to take the responsibility of it. So that's just my own growth over the years.

- I love that. I love that. - Yeah. The 30 plus years in, I mean, he's me. We are so intertwined

at this stage in life, our experiences, our challenges, our family, our, like, he would have to be come a different person, like that I would be like, who took over your body. And then we would be going to doctors, and we would probably call the FBI, you know. I mean, because I'd have to be like, there's something, something happened to my husband. It's not the same person. And then I'd be worried, like, what is going on?

Raise your hand if you've been putting off a checkup, a dental cleaning, any kind of doctor's appointment. Yeah, my hands up too. I'll tell myself I'm fine and keep it moving, but we can't take care of business if we're not taking care of our health. This year, we're doing it differently. You know that feeling when you leave a doctor's office and think, they really listened.

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even same day. I use this and you should too. Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zachda.com/IMO to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's zocdoc.com/IMO. Zachda.com/IMO. Thanks, Zachda for sponsoring this message. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. You know, I've been thinking a lot about careers lately, especially in a job market like this. One thing I've learned is that you really have to think outside the box when it comes to your path.

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better work, and career scout is their latest innovation to help you do that. The future of job searching is here, and it's called Indeed Career scout. Try it today in the Indeed app. It's only you guys origin story. Yes. I think it's it's so different because me, she didn't meet Barack until later. I didn't meet my first wife until after. I didn't be Kelly to wait later. You guys knew each other freshman year and are still together. I want to know

“how does that happen? How does that happen? What do you have to say to that bird? Well, I think”

because I always look at it like life kept throwing us back together, you know, and similar to you like, yeah, no, I'm good. Like we would go away. We would purposefully go away and life would just keep tossing us back in the state. Our very first job, we were not speaking. We had just graduated

from grad school. I never forget. Yeah, this was on your first episode. Did we talk about the

first episode? I don't know. Did we? Did we? Did we talk about the first episode? I think it was under five on guiding light. I remember where I was when they said you got the job, and I was so excited because you're first job. I was in one of those big stores on like 40 second, like, you know, not H&M, but like, you know, the, you know, James, that's me. I was in the B.I.A. and I was looking at stuff and they were like, and you got the jobs. I got my way, my way, my way. And they're like,

and you got your other classmates and they said, Sarah stories, what am I? Do your dear friends. It's like, yes, Sarah's three. And another classmate. I was like, oh, and they were like, sterly brown. I was like, they're like, hello? You said, oh, yeah, I'm here. Yeah, we were not speaking and we played a husband and wife in a Lamaz class on guiding light. Why weren't you all speaking? What happened? Who did what? Where you wasn't mad, I'm not speaking, or you just weren't in touch.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, - Now where was that? - No, it was, it was the time name, man. - It was, it was, it was, it was, who?

“- I think that meant the point. - It came to me.”

- No, you weren't thinking to me, is it?

- Look, it's facts, facts, but what I'm saying is, like we did our last show at NYU, which was mid-Summer Night's Dream. - Yes. - And I see you come all stage and I'm like,

"Yo, man, you just ripped that scene. "I just want you to know it was really good. "And you just walk." (laughing) That's the last thing you did, man.

- You ghosted before I did was it turned past you, man. - Oh, did you do the weird thing? - Oh, it's a game. - It was a game. - But after sustained neglect, I was like,

"All right, I'm gonna stop trying now."

So we had stopped talking to each other. So we get on set to do the scene. And what happens is, anytime she knows that I've pulled away, she purposefully is like, "Hey, Sterling, how are you?" - What's going on?

- What's going on? (laughing) - You know what I mean? You know what I mean? - No, no, no, no. - So we had to do this scene.

And we're, she's sitting in my lap, you know, she's pregnant and I'm holding her up for what, not. And the Lamar's destructors going by and she said, "And Dad, you're gonna have to look after the mamies. "You're gonna have to do this and that

"and give some sponge baths and everything like that." And the lion goes, "Rinds, looks over her shoulder." And she looks, I mean, she goes, "Spunch baths." And I look at her and I say, "All the time." Except, when we do our line,

she looks at me and she's like, "She's touching me and all the stuff." And I'm like, "Oh, Lord, please stop touching." And then, she looks at me and she gets sponge baths and I look directly in her forehead.

- Yes. - That's it. - She couldn't even lie in your mouth. - Oh, and she couldn't lie in your mouth. - She couldn't lie in your mouth.

- She couldn't lie in your mouth. - But the camera couldn't lie. - Yeah. - And I'm doing this. Like, the camera, the camera, the camera, the camera.

- That's what camera I've got.

“- That's what I've got, that's what I've got.”

- That's what I've got, that's what I've got. - That's what I've got. - Oh, she's like, "That's why I'm an actor." - I wanna dig rest, please. Just for an acting thing,

'cause you husband and wife both actors. - Yeah. - When does the discussion happen about each other doing make-out scenes with someone else?

- It's a great question. - Well, the man wants to know.

“- I don't know, I think that's a question.”

- I think the public, yeah.

- I never heard anyone ask that question.

- Yeah. - Because either people don't have an opportunity or they're just like, I'm not gonna bring it up. - It is acting.

And what a lot of people don't realize, it's not as glamorous as you think it is. They're sweat and like people are coming to powder you and you have to hit this right angle because the camera can't see something

or what have you. And it's very sort of like choreographed or whatnot. I always tell the bird, I was like, hey man, make 'em look like you know what's going on. Like don't let 'em think it.

Don't let 'em think that we ain't having a good time and I was like, "Hey, we know how we can do it." So like, don't go on and run. - No, we can do it, we can do it, we can do it. - This is what I'm trying to do.

- So you got scared.

“- There's no reality in that sort of arena there”

because like we both have said like, to do it well, it's not about pretending as much as it is, investing in the given circumstances, so much that you are living the truth of that character in that time.

So you gotta find another little bit. And you gotta be attracted a little bit. And that doesn't threaten anything that we have because we know where we sleep at night. We know who we've made our vows to, et cetera, et cetera.

It just means I want you to act well. And I hope that you want me to act well. And that we can, and sometimes here's the other thing. You can take some of the energy that you got on set and bring that home and bring that home.

- And bring that home, bring that home. - That's your name, 'cause a lot of people ask that question. How do you do that? How does that, it's my job, it's your job. And you do it.

- I feel like I just don't watch. - You just don't know this, but I just, when the scenes come up, I just post like, I'm gonna get some ice cream. - Yeah, I just don't want, I just don't,

I don't want to, that's forward. - Yeah, I just don't watch, I don't know if I could watch. - Yeah, yeah. - I just don't like watching myself though. - You know what I mean, especially in those particular,

I don't like watching myself necessarily. I have to because I have to see what I've done wrong or what I didn't. You know, I have to see, but certain things, I, there are things on first wives club

that I still haven't watched myself do. I was like, "Mom, no, I need to do that."

“Like, and for me, I think it's the only way”

that I can sort of do what you say in terms of like living in that moment. I have to just kind of like take a deep breath, live in the moment, and then I really just have to let it go, and it has to stay gone for me.

So I can't, I can't ruminate on the scene, and I can't ruminate on your scenes, and I just have to, you know, I just don't watch. - Well, that makes me think, well, like, you guys didn't answer the question, really.

It's like, how have you worked through some of the tougher times in your marriage and does one particular time stand out to you? There are, so Craig was saying something really about, like, you know, two actors navigating the industry together, right? And so, there's something about,

you're gonna have your own take on this, and that's fine. And I just asked that you let me finish my take first.

- Okay, we don't always agree, you don't always agree.

- You don't always agree, it is for fear for you. - I just asked that you let me finish my take first. Before you offer yours. - Okay. - He isn't, thank you.

Appreciate it. - There is sometimes this feeling of, like, all right, when there's momentum happening in one person's career, you have a desire for momentum in your own career as well. And while you can say and truly believe that,

like, we are doing very well right now, whether it's financially or otherwise, if the other person isn't experiencing something that is validating for them on a personal level, whatever's transpiring for you may feel

very separate and distinct. And so, I will say that there are times in which I'm like, how do I make sure that my wife feels included and acknowledged and appreciated? As there's a certain level of momentum transpiring

in my life, and there's varying degrees of success in terms of us feeling connected in it and separate in it. Though that's an ongoing thing that I'm navigate. Asked you.

- I would say. (both laughing) You know, George Burns was asked this question about his long Hollywood marriage to Gracie.

And he said we never fell out of love at the same time.

And I can look back at our relationship and I really do believe that we've, I don't know that that's a deal that we've made or something that's just kind of sustained us.

And even before we got married, I would say that when one pulled away, the other one was like, and when, you know what I mean? So I don't think we've ever decided at the same time. - Yeah.

- I'm done with you.

“And so I think that there is something that”

makes one of us, if not both of us,

but at least one of us is always pulling for us.

- Mm-hmm. - That would give that. - And so I think that that's at the very, very core, the very, very root of it. We believe in therapy, yeah.

We very much believe in therapy. I think that that has given us an opportunity to kind of see the forest for the trees. Like what you were talking about is like, okay, you might have some bad years.

Like, it's only been six months. And like, let's see what happens when the baby is walking. And then that's the whole another corner of Earth. You know, that literally and figuratively that you're gonna turn together.

I also think that, because we have had, we have the children. Again, you might to say that, well, no, we're not just staying for the kids. You'd like to say that, but it is,

we do know that there's something bigger now, than just the both of us. And whatever is going on at that moment. Yes, I can be very volatile. And I can, you know, there was that again in the,

in the microphone. No, I have no one who says, I'm not a judge, I'm a judge. I know, but like, you have a little bit of things that you thought about when you were younger that you wouldn't put up with.

Like, there is definitely a 19-year-old me that would have had the time of her life with a very dramatic, a bad number. Like, that's been part of the fun, right here. That's the whole thing, right here, yes, but it's fine,

but you know, we're gonna meet, like, you know, the whole, I didn't do that when I was pregnant when I was given, 'cause like, even at that home. And I remember, there was, you know, stuff alone on, stuff alone on, and I looked in my hand,

I was like, and I put it on the wall. And I was like, ah, that's great. So that I can have the bloody hand print down. - Oh, oh, oh. - Oh, oh, oh. - Oh, oh, oh. - This is the only child who brought my girl. - Oh, oh, oh.

- Oh, oh. - Oh, oh. - Oh, oh. - Oh, oh. - Oh, oh, oh, oh. - Oh, oh, oh. - Oh, oh, oh. - Oh, my god, I love it. - Oh, oh. - Oh, oh, oh. - So you don't think of some stuff. - I really can't. - I'm not really kidding. - I'm not really kidding. - But I--

- Yes. - But I have put a lot of that. - And it's okay now. - Now, now you have, you, it's not just you, and there's the dramatic moments and all of those things, there's something bigger that's calling you. And it is those 30 years on the other side.

It's the children and what we can provide. And it's all of that. And it just feels bigger than just whatever that small moment is. Or even that big moment. That's not to say that there haven't been big moments.

“But I think that there's something bigger that calls us”

to fight for what we have. - I think I'm gonna go back and just combine the two things together because it feels like when things are difficult, if we feel as if we are in them together, they are way easier to endure versus when we feel as if we're separate in it.

And here I'm saying like that's always like,

that's probably the toughest times that we have. When we feel like we're going through something, as a couple as a family and/or individually, and we don't feel like we're on the same page, those are the times that are the most difficult.

- I would say. - Yes. (upbeat music) - Brian, I wanna just check in with you on, you know, 'cause you talked about the fact that you sacrificed your career to be there for your kids.

You made some choices. - You know, that is the story of so many women out there. We can talk about being equal partners and so on and so forth, but we give birth our bodies change. We are constantly adapting in ways that our partners,

our male partners do not have to do it. It's a part of it. And so we wind up saying you can have it all, but not at the same time. - Sometimes it's easier said than experienced.

- Most of the time it's easier to say. - I'd love to hear more from you about how you felt through those moments and how you're, I know you're still dealing in those moments.

“And how does that, how are you coping with that reality?”

- That is an excellent question. Yeah, you know, it, gosh, it's a really good question

because when you first, you can see it.

Everybody's like, oh, so excited for the both of you.

And then you look down. - We're looking at you. You look, you know what I mean? And you're slowing down and you're changing and you're wadlin' and this, you know, like, wait a minute.

How, like, I, I'm already slower than I had really bad hyperemesis, which is when you just, you know, you're six, six, six, and, you know, and then not, not chair and any of that. - You're going to the gym.

- And one of the gym, I'm going to go work out. - And you're like, shut. - That makes sense. - And then I see this now. - And then he tried, and then the baby was brand new.

And he's in the gym. He's like, but I'm working out outside in the garage. - You're welcome. - Like, he really felt like he had given me this very magnanimous gift.

And I was like, if I could get up from this couch and beat you into the, like, I would, you know, and again, it's you, you're watching. And again, you want to be, that's the pull.

“I think that a lot of women don't realize.”

Women don't realize the kind of mother they're going to want to be until the baby shows up. - There you go. - And you have no idea. - No idea.

- No idea. Some women decide whether it's breastfeeding, whether it's, I want to, whatever it is, you don't know, it's an experiential thing. And when you, the all those decisions are made,

very deeply in your core. And I don't want to say they're made on the fly, but they're made in these sort of like, just the babies here, that's the decision. And so you had all these plans, right?

And everybody told you, girl, you don't snap back. Girl, I get to do, remember, we read them, you just do the plans, girl. Do the plans. And you're like, okay, well, I'll just,

and in your mind, you really believe that you're going to just do this plans, you're going to pop back, you're going to put that baby in a little pouch and you're just going to,

“you know, you just drop them off somewhere,”

or stuff like, somebody else coming, you don't even know how you'll feel about that. You don't know how you're going to feel about it. When you'll be ready for that. You don't know how much it's going to cost.

Yeah, ooh, yes. You don't know that the woman that you want to hire has was given a signing bonus. Oh, my, I tell the story when I did find a baby sitter that was really, really good.

And she came to us at everything. I was back to work. I love this woman. She was a part of our family, love the girls. And she just needed to make more money.

And we couldn't pay her more money. And she left. And I still feel that hurt. Like, I'd feel the like, you know, I was losing my real partner in this endeavor.

Oh, I wouldn't have thought I would have felt that way about my baby sitter, my, you know, I know. And that sent me spinning. That one thing sent me spinning in a fit of deep

desperation that I would have never thought.

Well, of course. I mean, and I, having had that experience, I, if I hadn't had kids, I'd be sitting here. Go, oh, that sounds like a lie. It's like, sure.

Oh, can you believe this is that PTSD? But you have to experience that. You know, like, Zoila is, Zoila Polocios is our, our girl. We call her my sister wife.

You know, she, and shout out to Zoila. So I'll eat that. Hey, girl, we love you. We love our Zoila's in our lives. We have, because you, you have that, you know,

that what we, what we grew up with with which that village, the grandparents, like somebody, you know, my grandmother, never left the house. Somebody was always taught for child. And that woman's house.

And my grandmother was like in her 70s. And Caberley walk, and here, up like you got a post on her. She's like, I got him. I know about he bedded in high lines. Didn't have a thing and not narrow in a socket in the house.

You know, the little thing he said, that's right. That's right. And nobody was worrying about what, what, what, what strain of food they were eating, whatever. Grandma gave you was totally fine.

She was, she has some fat back, some sauce in a baby. Hold on to some kind of bone. Like, I think they should have eaten. That's it. Oh, my God.

My wife just knew your baby was loved and safe. Yeah, because not all of the matter, you know. And those communities are fine. We didn't have that. And so we're, and we're some of the first people who don't have that.

And so then we have to hire that and find that. And to your point, it's like losing a, it's not like, it is losing a family member.

It is losing a crucial part.

And you, again, you don't know what you're going to feel and experience until you get there. And again, to your point about each season.

“So now I'm like, okay, well, it should be getting easier, right?”

Because they're older and I know 14 year old. And I'm like, oh, well, I'll just show for it. Let me just, I'm a show for, but I also'm like, I clearly need to ride the bus with you.

I clearly need to be at, stop. What is happening on your way? We, what he thinks he can. He told him once he was like, oh, he did you. He's heard how to use this toaster oven and then I've got it.

Like, I've got it.

I've got it basically a man.

That was like, you don't know the wife I got. All I need is a credit card and a driver's license. I can live all my own. He said he's there, he said he said he said, all I need you guys to do is take me where I need to go.

No, that's, that's a big one. But what's in there? Go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Who are you? Who's going to have a school?

Maybe we would meet in Lima, that's right. He did ask you when I was three. He was said something was happening.

“He was three and he was like, why are you always in my business?”

Oh, oh. It's like a fool. That's my business. That's my business. That's my business.

That's my business. That's my business. That's my business.

The thing that you love about this man, you are going to see it in a track.

Yes. And then I have to raise that. Oh, I'm law. I should have thought this thing. But everything is different.

And now you're, you know, just when you thought, just when you think. Because you didn't know, again, it's the experience of it. And it's like, and now you see, oh, this is how things can go left. Because you think it's when they're little and you're just pouring in your pouring in. That's the way.

That's the way. Those days back when they were so in your control and all you had to worry about them was falling and scraping a knee. And now they are in the world. This is a good conversation.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a good. No, no. We just learned. You learned from the experts.

No, I feel the same. I feel like, even in a rise approach and I feel you guys are similar is like, we try to enter into everything with a level of curiosity. We're not experts on anything and just hoping to learn. Like we're all in a process of evolving to become the best form of ourselves.

“I think in doing that, like, there is just sort of like teach me, like, our share of”

thought. And then let's see how it all sort of reverberates in the in the cipher. That's right. That's right. What I love about doing this aside from getting the spend time with my little sister.

Yes, a regular basis is that you, I learned something new in every conversation. And even at this age to come to work every day and feel like you're learning something new is inspirational. Yeah. Agreed.

Agreed. We agree. We agree. We agree. We have a question.

Okay. But we get from our our watchers and listeners. Oh, this is good. And this one is from our hometown, Jackie from Chicago. Come on, shout out.

Hi, my name's Helen Craig, shout out from Chicago and writing to see your advice about my relationship with my husband of five years. We both teach at the college level and share a deep commitment to education and our students. And much of our connections built on a love of learning and a belief in bettering ourselves and the world.

However, our creative paths and temperaments are quite different. I work in substance abuse, social work, and my husband is a musician and visual artist with a strong creative drive. The Egypt experience our work so differently. My husband tends to experience excited, creative highs surrounding performances and exhibits,

followed by times of withdrawal and low mood after he's done or between shows. And those times he's focused on his classes and getting the next show off the ground, but he can seem quiet and distant at home. He kisses me good night, tells me he loves me, but doesn't initiate much conversation or interaction.

Although I need some creativity with problem solving and my work, I'm not involved in the creative arts at all and don't necessarily experience the same emotional waves. Here's where I need your advice. I sometimes find myself hesitating to ask for intimacy or suggesting going out on a date when my husband is experiencing these moments of just needing to recharge by sitting together

quietly watching TV. I worry if I ask for affection or conversation or intimacy during these phases. I'll sound selfish or insensitive, but if I don't speak up, I start to feel disconnected and dissatisfied. I want to be a supportive partner during his creative slums, but I also need to feel

seen and wanted, and I miss the closeness that comes from shared moments out or together and bad. How can I best balance his need for space and creative solitude with my own needs for intimacy, affection and quality time? How do I show up as a good partner who values his mental health and while being without

“losing sight of what I want and need in our relationship?”

Thanks so much for all your great work. We're gonna tell Jackie to get out of my marriage. Welcome to Iron Wolf. What? Jacqueline.

What?

'Cause here's the thing, and you'll probably say the same thing, possibly and not.

Are you Jackie? I think I'm Jackie. I'm Brian Blake. I'm Jackie.

That's what I'm about to say.

That's what I'm like.

“You make the other same money, but what she asked you guys, so you guys-”

No, she's asking the station, she's asking the table. I mean, I'll start on it because I feel like we had a conversation kind of like this last night. Oh wow. Tell us more. Are you okay Ryan?

We're okay. We're okay. We're okay. But it was about sort of for me understanding the nature between acceptance and resignation.

In terms of, like, this is what it is, like, what to fight to change and what to accept

in its current status and be at peace with. And like the difference between acceptance and resignation as far as I can conceive of in this moment is acceptance has a certain level of peace and resignation has a certain level of sorrow.

“And sort of like, when the fight, when not to fight, when to you, etc.”

But I can say this and you step in, please, because this is, I want a back and forth on this one because it will feel better. My experience of Rye when she is working versus when she is not working is very different. And there is a level of just sort of like joy and because there's a certain level of fulfillment from coming to do to, because she's enjoying doing the thing that she's wanted to do what

she wants to do, right? And so we write a wave sometimes, we write a wave sometimes, and do you feel closer when she's in that joy? Yeah, okay. Hands up.

Hands up. So the not working part you describe as that's Rye and Slump. Yeah. I mean, you speak on it because you're going to go too far, yeah, I'm back to Jackie. I was just trying to do share if the children would say, is she talking about the times

when her husband is not working at all on something creative or is she talking about the low that comes from like coming off of the stage, right? Because that's a real thing, like you come off of the stage and you have this high from doing whatever it is and then you come off and you're just buzzing. And then you kind of go into a slump either like immediately after.

So I'm trying to just start and as she's talking about, he's had this incredible emotional

high, he's come off stage and now he's home and he's like, like feeling the after effects of that. And that's when she wants to sort of step in or is it, he's been on a creative journey, had a wonderful time and then he's in between creative journeys. So I read it as the latter, the latter.

But that's how I answer. That's a good question.

“That's how I interpreted it because it sounds like, you know, those periods, you know,”

because the after stage, I need a day is a different emotional would create a different emotional instability for Jackie, then I haven't, I'm not in my element for a year or months, right, right, right, right, right. And that could lead to the kind of disconnection that she's talking about. So I interpreted it as, these are, you know, there are periods in a creative person's life

when things aren't coming, things aren't jelly. And he seems to her, Jackie's partner seems to get really low and disconnected. That's how I'm reading it. Okay. Okay.

Thank you for that clarification. This is all right, it's just a very difficult question. You know, I think that there has to be, well, we, you know, we already said that your happiness is your own responsibility, right. And I don't want to tell Jackie necessarily to go do her own thing.

But I do think that there is something about creating structures around these times, especially if you know that these are times that happen, if I'm not sure in their relationship, because that she mentioned that they were both professors, so I'm wondering if they can, it might be easier for them to create structures around this because maybe there are, like, set points in a year where he's like, I just finished a show or, you know, something like that.

So maybe it's helpful, I hope this is helpful for Jackie to set up those structures when she knows he needs a couple of weeks and maybe, maybe put a timer on it, you know, Jennifer Anderson said something that I love, she said that her therapist told her, you get a year to agree with this, like, to the day, like, and it starts now, now you're on the clock.

And I do think that there's something to that maybe there's something to giving him to

a half weeks, three weeks, and she knows those three weeks are coming, so she can set up her own, my, her own, you know, not saying she should go on vacation, but maybe there's a way that she can know that these things are coming, he can have his time, and then when those three weeks are up, he has to re-engage with her, so maybe both of them can have what they need, and he may not understand that this, he may not even know it's happening,

because it's just his, how life has been for him, and now he has to contend with another person, and his way of dealing with it doesn't, it doesn't work. Yeah.

“I latch on to the question of, should I communicate these thoughts?”

That's Jackie was asking, and I would say, yes, you communicate to your partner, how this is making you feel, because maybe you don't feel like you're in a safe space, but I

think at the very core, I would say Jackie, it is not helpful for you to hold on to these

feelings, and not involve your partner in this challenge, and it may be better to do it in a time where he's up, you know, rather than piling on at a time when he's perhaps already emotionally vulnerable. So thinking ahead to like, okay, assuming that all else is fine, and they're not teetering on the brink, that she's got to remember how she feels when times are good, remember

the bad times when times are good, because sometimes it's hard to have a conversation when everything, a tough conversation when everything is good, but it might be necessary for her to say, hey, you're winning, look at you, you've created this, and now you're coming on. Now let's talk about last month, you know, I didn't want to share this with you, but you

know, I don't even know if you notice, but when things aren't going well for you, you tend to show up in this way, it makes me feel this, and feel that can we talk about that. Do you see it in the same way?

“You know, because she also wants to get a sense of what is, what is he really feeling?”

She's interpreting what she thinks he's feeling, if she has an ass, so she's got to give him some space to say, right wrong, you know, no, that's not it, or, ooh, spot on. And then in that moment, let's talk through this, let's talk through a plan, and this, I think this Ryan is where the plan of, can we get some agreement now, that if we, if we both agree that we're doing, you're doing this, and that it's making me feel this

way, how can we resolve it? And is there a period of time? Is there a signal? Is there a word?

Is there a, or do we set up a structure that, no matter what, we're always going to go

on a date night once a month, we're always going to mark the box when we are intimate. We're, we're just going to practice our way through your bad time, but that's got to be a joint. Yes. Yes, because he may not know, you know, that's a, he may not even realize, especially if

this is something that he's been doing, you know, before they got married, so he might, it may be a complete blind spot for him. It might be a blind spot, Jackie. Yeah, it'd be a blind spot. But that's good.

So we, we got some points for Jackie, and I think it starts with the communication part.

“You have to communicate it, and then, and she shouldn't feel guilty, or feel like she”

should hold on to it. Yeah, there, there's some other issues there if she feels the feel like she can communicate. There's, there's something that I think that may not have been fully articulated. There was part of our conversation in terms of what you said, ma, if you make a bid for connection and you feel as if that bid for connection gets rejected, then it's like, then

what do you do? Yeah. It's like, oh boy, it's like playing double, that's sometimes like, when do I get in, but this kind of thing, this connection, and if you got hit by the rope, you're like, oh, yeah, come on up, get in the right time.

You got to be blunt though. Yeah. You have to be blunt if that happens. I, just going to come in my experience, you can't tip toe into the rope, right? Or if you tip toe into the rope, you know you're going to get hit, so if you go in confidently

and bluntly, you're going to jump right. Yeah. And get your steps down. That is good. Maybe that's what she needs.

She just needs the confidence to boldly say what her truth is. You know? Or I need to have a deeper conversation about what's going on here, and that gets to the negotiation, which gets to your structures. I mean, I love the structure, I'm a structure person, like just 30 points.

A coach. Yeah. Yeah.

“And I will do what I can, but you know, and sometimes in these relationships, and”

I don't want to get too far or feel, I want Jackie to hear those three points.

But I also want to talk about how Jackie can't be one of these folks who gets upset because the guy is like, coach me up. She doesn't want him to say coach me up. She wants him to figure it out on his own. Can you expect the people to read your mind, because when you talk to them, you expect

people to read your mind, which is why you've got to go in bluntly. Okay. That's why you've got to learn. Well, and then you've got to acknowledge that for Jackie expressing her intimacy needs,

could feel, it could feel risky, should they make her feel vulnerable.

I mean, sometimes asking for, having to ask, you know, that might happen to some insecurities about her. It's like, maybe I'm not worthy, maybe I, you know, so, you know, sometimes that that I want you to read my mind, yes, stuff is about, like, don't make me say it, don't make me say it because it's hard for me.

And I feel unsafe. And this is where you've got to know your partner because of where it what's their history of safety and intimacy, you know, Charlie, you guys had someone on your podcast who was talking about the edge of vulnerability, like finding the edge in terms of the vulnerability with your partner.

And I feel like this is like, that was a long, long, long, long, long. And this is very much that, like, she is really at Jackie sounds like she's at the edge. You know, to your point about, like, well, there's something there that's very,

“scary for her and she's at that edge and, like, teetering, you know, but I think she's,”

she may feel unsafe, but feeling is feeling, I guess. Oh, my, oh, you're near the whole journey. Oh, no, no, just let it go. You are good enough. That's a strong enough.

It might feel unsafe, but I think I like to believe that she might be safer than she is. I hope Jackie knows we're not taking her thing like, oh, no, she got some good direction. Now, I want to, before we move on to the IMO segment, the social segment, you two met each other before today, but you didn't get a chance to tell me about that.

You've been rubbing it in four years until I did a show called Army Wives on Lifetime. And there was, I believe it was like a luncheon for military spouses, et cetera, and you invited the cast of Army Wives because we were on the air at the time. And it was like an episode of Kim, too, the receiving life.

Everybody's in the receiving line and all the ladies are coming through and Madam First

Ladies, like nice to meet you. Thank you for coming. Thank you for yesterday.

“I think that that Brown got up there and I was like, can I have a hug?”

I just said, boy, please, girl, the arms were out. The guys were showing up and I was like, "Brother, guess who had to meet today?" A real hug. That was the first place I had helped me in her arms. And I felt loved and seen and appreciated and Ryan looked at me like, are you, she was

so tall man. And the more I shared the more angry she became and then the more I shared, I was like, "She, I've met you." And now, did you, did you commemorate that the, it was, it was one of the great days of my life. So, I know my sister wanted to come back. I just had to watch her and kill me.

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