Try Not to Laugh with Ayo Edebiri and Don Cheadle

Well, I'm seeing my memories. I'm like deeply normal

“And then my cousins are always like oh, you're so funny and weird”

This episode of IMO is brought to you by progressive insurance Well, everybody welcome to IMO in New York It's a special episode because I'm by myself. My big brother You know travel and everything it's not busy. Yeah, he's a busy guy. He's a busy guy, but I'm here and we're in New York

Because I just saw an amazing

production of proof on Broadway and We're going to talk about that here today. We have a couple of special people here who are The reasons why this play is so amazing don and I owe it's good to have you here

“For those of you who don't know higher ground, Baroque and I we were also co-producing this amazing production and”

We are just thrilled to be a part of it because this version of the play is Exactly the kind of stuff that Baroque and I want to be involved with telling stories that are reimagined in ways that have an impact

So we are thrilled, but I have to formally introduce you all to the IMO audience

So I'm just gonna read your your your quick bios just in case you don't know who you are Okay, but we have done cheat all the one and only is one of Hollywood's most versatile and enduring talent I like that. This is my friend, so I know you're a little embarrassed Perhaps best known for his performances in the films devil and a blue dress which I just rewatch a couple of days ago. I also just watched a couple of days ago

You just turned into another dude. Yeah, and that way. I guess that's a job. Yes, mouse. Yeah. Yeah, mouse But also buggy night's traffic and hotel where we're wanted that earned you an Academy Award nomination Don is an actor producer and activist who's work on an off-screen reflects a deep Commitment to storytelling that matters. Thank you and I O my my little friend here Is one of the most exciting young talents in Hollywood. Let's go. I know who's grown breaking

Roll as Sydney and FX is a claim series of the bear earned her an Emmy a golden globe and Virtually every other major television award in a single sweet damn girl She is an actress writer director and comedian who's meteoric rise was made has made her one of the most sought after voices of her

“Generation how about that? Yeah, what do we do with that? What do you do with that?”

What do I do at that? I don't know just kind of make it to what do you know no we don't know we don't know No, I've been calling it one day, but you guys didn't write that too much But I think if it was written it feels like a New Yorker One day off and then one already visualizing it. I'm laughing

I'll just smile on my face you too I'm feeling lighter literally Connected already. What did you know each other before proof because you have like you really Have known each other forever no, which which works really well for this play. No, we did not I mean we'd met You know, but we hadn't spent any real time

with each other and For me, because it predates me you were talking about this play with Tommy and with Mike you know before I was on camera Tell me Kale tell me where I'm the right guy my boss my boss is there. Lead producer. Yeah, and By the time I came into it and new I was Going to be playing Catherine. I was so excited about it and

When we first met, you know not to be tried, but it just felt like

Like what you're saying it did feel like we'd known each other a long time and I felt instantly paternal I felt you know my daughter's very close to the rage and I just Yeah, yeah, so we just right off the bat and then once we started working and realized that we Worked in a similar way and we had similar ideas about the approach to the the material and it just all kicked off and kept kept going Did you have

Someone in mind did you were you thinking of Don as you were thinking about this re-imagined version of the play

sometimes

“I don't know maybe this is just me, but I always you sort of like exercises like oh, who could be my parent?”

You know who you like the dream versus and I think a part of it is you know obviously vibe and all those things, but just people who you really admire and who's work you really

Love and yeah, Don sort of like always been on my eternal list and

It was like the first name that both Tommy and I had said we were like okay, let's go away I can come up with names and then it was like well, I mean, but I wasn't sure as I think I do it After the people that I review I was like I don't even know if he'd be interested in this if he knows who either of us is I don't know And the fact that he said yes was just a dream, but then again, you know meeting

I think sometimes it can be really hard to meet your heroes and you know

“I think we've all had experiences where you walk away. You're like, okay, well”

That's information that I have now and I mean, you know, I'm your friend, but like there was just such a graciousness But also and I'm really a hurting eye contact

When for me, it's always really heartening. I love my job. I would like to do it for as long as possible and when I meet people

Who I really admire and review and I see that to them They are still on the first day like they are still so in communication with their inner child and with their curiosity and You're trying to make a big baby huge. Wow nice and nice extra. I've got it very carefully Just really childhood Well, it turned out like there's still a curiosity and a hunger and like I don't know it's there's no

Not that it's like not a dissatisfaction. You know what I mean, it's like there is a dissatisfaction Yeah, it's never a content. Yeah, it's always different. Yeah, and that's a very that's a very similar journey that I think we're both on Well, let's let let's give our listeners our audience a sense of what proof is about Because it's a revival

It opened in 2000. Yes playwright is David Auburn

Tony winner pull it surprise when is yes a play and not everybody is familiar

“With proof. Can you guys talk about premise and why this reimagined version is so powerful?”

Well, the play According to David or like to quote David when you describe it because often people ask you know What is it about and he says at its core? It's a family drama and at the center of it is Katherine who I play who is 25 and Maybe I'll try to do a spoiler free version, but it explores the relationships between herself and her father

who was a Genius, but troubled mathematician and professor her sister who they all live in Chicago who now lives in New York and Comes back home and one of her fathers protege's a student name how and

Yeah, it goes through time it goes through their relationships and One of the questions out the center of it is I don't know there's a lot of different questions But legacy and truth yeah, that's it seems in it I don't know madness genius You know how where is where is the line?

Yeah, how to straddle it how does it look like what does it look like what a success What does sisterhood sisterhood look like in a huge way Trust responsibility trust. It's a big play. Yeah, it's it's a big play and the original play was It was written for a white cast a white family and

Tommy Kale and and Mike Decided and was it intentional to Revive it with a black family and did you all have those discussions and I think Tommy you know Wanted to I think Tommy and David head in her to conversation and with Mike at some point and they decided that they wanted Catherine to be I am so once they decided that

Yeah, it's a big day to who the family would be in some ways both Kara and Jen Kara Young and Jen Ha who are also in the play with us Kara plays

She was in purpose amazing. Yeah, yeah, she is a living

“It is really cool to be I don't know to work with her and know her and love her and just be like I'm watching like the”

I know what I'm watching. It's very cool And then Jen How who's amazing actors well, but they're I call them our Broadway dulas because they're a little bit more versed And both of them were like it feels almost like working working on a new play Yeah, the way that we have been rehearsing and workshopping with each other it

Which is really exciting It's a bit different from film and TV because with this with theater It's all about the process. Yeah, that's kind of all you have you have all this rehearsal time You're so fun. Yeah, I was looking at it. Did you see you too. You too? Well, let's talk more about the The process like

Don't do that You would drink a bowl when you do it

“He's got from the side of the water. I mean that's a specialty of I am all we try”

I'm sure nothing we don't get in there. So now But let's talk a bit about the fact that for both of you, this is your You know, you know, like that. You know, that's right. I'm staying on the back of every bugs me eating here. I have no you guys gonna get a you know, I'm sure I know when you probably it's just no To the average double like dog or eating probably a thousand years or both and me who's taking the butt out of their water But we don't know because I when I we do not try both. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah

That info flying in but anyway, this is both of your debut on on Broadway So why why now especially don't for you, oh, man cool cool Yeah, this is this is the love I get from the Obama's on the regular For me it was again Timing it was the right auspices. It was you know getting to work with Io

Having the opportunity to work with Tommy obviously a very experienced and really a good director And it's just somehow worked out. I'd been playing around with the idea for a couple years and trying to work on a couple of different things and

developing things and just the time never

Really presented itself to have that much unencumbered time to carve out to do it But this this had all the reasons to say yes For me and you you guys are both theater nerds deep down you in particular Don you you came out of theater that was your first love can you talk a bit about I've you know I'm doing plays and I was to an elementary school and you know all throughout high school

And then I graduated and went to California Institute of the Arts and studied theater there and did that You know for four years and the zillion plays there and then When I graduated as you know I did regional theater at the Guthrie and at the Goodman and the public and mixed blood and the Twin Cities

And I've just was something I always kept up and

That in 25 years ago as you mentioned at the top dog under dog when this play open proof actually opened on Broadway and frigid my wife Was telling me about it, so it's been something that that was the last time I've been on stage But I always knew it was Something somewhere and just everything had to come together and it kind of did I mean, it's it's funny because I met Kara on the set of I love boosters

Which comes out next month and she didn't know who she was talking to because I have all these prosthetics on

“for me and I said oh I'm down to you. She's like what are you?”

Yeah, yeah, but I was talking about all I've got this play reading coming up I've got this a reading offer to do proof and I owe a debris is going to be doing it I'm really excited about it and it's weird how things come together and I don't know if I'm gonna do it But I'm gonna do the reading and the timing we're just talking about all this kismit stuff and her phone things

She looks at it and she looks at me in terms of phone to me and it said you have a offer to Oh my God, read proof. Oh my god, well, I guess We're supposed to do this. Yeah, yeah, Stephen Spielberg told me that

Who gets cast is who's supposed to be cast which is why he never

Does it at the right time because scheduling and getting this stuff right is a big part of who does what win in this business Yeah, yeah

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When I bought my first home, I played it very safe on paper. It made sense

Mish, what is something you wish you knew when you were buying your first home? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be repetitive But hearing you talk. It's the same thing. I mean, I think over the course of our lives before going into the White House We we bought our first condominium and played it conservative and we bought our first home Now my husband wouldn't say that we were being conservative, but it is true that there's, you know, I think there's a benefit to Being somewhat conservative because you don't want to grow up as our dad said house poor

Right, and I think we worry a lot about that because that was sort of the theory of working class folks

But the truth is is that you want to get the I wish I had known that getting the most for your dollar was actually the better strategy

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so what advice would you give young people today as they approach bigger and bigger life choices like purchasing their first home? Well, I would say talk to people who've been in your shoes

“You know, I think our parents were never homeowners, right?”

So we didn't really have them as a guide So I would say to young people if you don't come from a home owning background Ask questions, you know, if you're buying a home, you're going to need a bank You should sit down with someone who has an expertise to help walk you through the process and help you Think about how much you should be investing how much you should be saving so that you're not going in blind

Yeah, yeah, I'd say while it feels stressful You'll be very happy with the result How do you think our childhood prepared us for making such big decisions such as home ownership?

“My child, I think with kids you let them start practicing with the small decisions, right?”

You can't raise kids to not ever make decisions and think they'll be ready for the big decisions So what are mom and dad? I think did a good job with is that they they gave us responsibility early on and let us choose, you know Setting your own alarm clock and getting yourself up making the decision about what you were going to wear every day Deciding how you are going to pace how to do your homework and you know what you valued

You know, I think our parents Forced us to make small decisions first so that we grew into the bigger decisions Exactly fortunately, they're resources available for all those first-time home buyers out there right now Progressive is offering real support as a first-time home buyer navigates what can feel like a pretty formidable process For example, progressive's up payment program is part of their open-the-house initiative

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$16 million toward making home ownership feel more achievable

Learn more about the up payment program and progressives commitment to first-time home buyers At progressive.com/open-the-house where home buyers can discover more about housing challenges and access resources and support To empower them in their housing journey I mean, we almost didn't know if we were you were working up to what two days before you came to our Yeah, what were you working on finishing the last season of Bayer? Okay, yeah, and

Both Evan and I previously had been cleared to do the shows that Evan's down dog day and I got clear to do this and then The just again schedules a lot of math. That's like a pretty big task

And then I had to wait to the end of that day. So I got one day to pack and go back home and dump all my stuff

And then get all my winter things and then I came out here and then I told him first and I was like hello

And theater, you know, look, I love theater. Yeah, I love all stage plays musicals You name it. There's just something about being in community with people and watching Beautiful. It's typically the people right there doing their thing and I'm kind of biased. I do think that actors who have had theater experience And it seems like the lines are a lot less blurred now. I mean

“Before it's like if you did TV and film, that's what you did. They people did theater people. They did theater stuff. And now”

I don't know if it's me, but it just feels like Everybody's doing a little bit of everything. You know George Clooney just did Broadway to Rodgeys up there now I mean we could go on and on

Can you guys talk about that trend? How does that feel for you guys in my experience from here? And because I feel like

There we go yeah It's basically been acting since the dawn of time The dawn of time. Yeah, and so I guess when nobody's this war stands out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel like my career comes into fruition for sure Yeah, you were the original Joseph in the territory and go. Yeah, yeah But like I think because my career has kind of been blown up in this way after COVID

I think also that is a huge part of it where I'm like, well, everything is soup Like every great great as sort of been a bit strange and we're like kind of figuring our way back Do you know what is your career in strange? Yeah, and many ways it's so many things

And I have come out of the strange. Yeah, so you know I've always been early adopter and in about whatever you know

“And I was I was doing a show on show time very early. Yes, you know, yes, I was like, oh, what's the streaming thing about?”

Yeah, yeah, and I've just always been I go with the material is yeah, and you know so many writers flocked to TV because they were now They were unable to do what they wanted to do in film because films started becoming just about tent pole stuff and I've been a bunch of And you know those kinds of misal misal misal mismension your marble ocean It's all good. It's it's like, yeah, you did that can do it now He had that in the intro and I was like you take that out. Yeah. Okay. That was like when we talk about any of that because you all of her stuff was so

Heady and lofty and incredible and I was like, I'm gonna talk about me in a suit But I can't No, would you wait that I cannot with that, but no, no, no hate on the Marvel stuff. Thank you Pays about allows you to do the theater stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, pays for the barn That's like my dad's like

I wish you didn't know so much about me Moving on to quote, Methusel

“I think that theater is never left my blood never not been something I wanted to get back to at some time in some way and I think you know”

Another thing that's playing on this is unfortunately the economics You know of what it takes to mount a production Yep, and I feel you know kind of conflicted sometimes about the people that we need to put in these plays To actually get Yeah, but just for the players and that's a recoup and all of that and there's jobbing actors

That have been out here, you know doing it for a long time that are like kind of getting squeezed out often when these kinds of casting opportunities happen So I It's it cuts both ways for me a little bit Because I love the opportunity and when I come here and do it and I really a big part of also wanting to do this play was really to I've it's Catherine's play. It's it's Ios play and I wanted to support her and support that journey and

You know I'm the smallest part in it, but I really wanted to come and like well, don't tell people that The kids up Isn't it a lot. Yeah, I mean I love you. They're just in it a lot more But I do think that you know, I understand that rub but I think that the way

Audiences think I mean, we're trying to get people off their phones and into the theater And if you like every time it happens also I don't know maybe that's my own sort of naiveteer whatever, but Like when it happens when you experience it Everybody's like so grateful for it

Come out of or pierce through cultural conversation or often so strange or feature a cast

We don't really know that many people. Maybe you saw one person that whose name you knew But everybody else you don't know there's there's there's the weird things there's strange things But then that doesn't end up being the takeaway From like a structural Industry standpoint like the takeaway isn't like oh, let's do more shows with unknown cast

It's like we really like cooking stuff and Chicago

“And so I don't know what I think you're lending your talents to see it or is helping because it's gonna put people in seats”

It's gonna you know re-invigorate things You know at this point I don't care why people come to the theater I just want them to come and they come because it's like, oh, I know Don and I all I get to see them

Up close. You guys don't have the schedules in the time to do theater always so if you can get somebody hooked

Then you guys know off I mean I like the way some productions are doing it a production gets established with a star And then you move out somebody else in it. Yeah, and then people now know that this play on its own Without the star powers. It's something that we want to see. We want our kids to be in those seats We want you know our communities to be back to that live kind of so I'm that's true. I think it's it It's a hook it's it's an important hook. I don't you know

I don't think this is a forever hook I think that the talent on Broadway is unbelievable some of the best talent in the business is right here in the city on the street

I mean what it takes to show up every day and I want to physically I like yeah talk about that for a bit like how you

“I want our audience to understand what is it take to prepare?”

I mean how did you guys approach This this play your roles, you know I'm gonna tease Don again. I mean when I saw you brought I went with Barack and I had a date night's proof And we were like that don't got a dad bond It's like wait at the last time I saw you you were cut up. I thought I am what you or I know

You are that's the thing power because I'm where I got a dad I was like I When I saw you back the day No, you didn't my point was one when I saw you backstage. I was almost like oh great. Okay, still in there I was I was in there thinking so many times getting all that we're acting acting

So you weren't wearing anything you just turned it to a dad bond But what's it the costume sure But anyway, we digged Like I think we've now leaned into the game of this podcast This is what it's about

“That's why we have you in the center in hot sea. You're not no doubt, but talk about your preparation”

I mean I like physically I I had started doing vocal training like the for the year before Because also I found myself losing my voice during a word season Because you were accepting so many speeches just because I don't know how to stop talking And I and I was like I know that I want to do a play and then I knew that it was gonna be this play and so I really wanted to get ready And that required just a lot of learning about my instrument things that also I think I was in practice with but not

Consciously when I was doing stand up on the regular and then since doing a lot more TV and film It's just I must so you don't have to use I don't have to reach the back of the room when I'm Mike you know like so That was like a definitely a part of it and I think when we knew that it was gonna happen We would talk about the script and sort of read it I don't know when you like could started actively

Memorizing But I tried to get it into my bones as much as possible and then when I knew I wanted to start earlier and then bearing that I'm happy So I would just read it on set if I didn't have like a crazy amount of lines and I remember Lionel and will pull-ter I would like pull that a lot because Ebin also was working on his own stuff for dog day

So we would kind of be in little corners just like reading and then picking up our sides and being like to know our actual job And yeah, and there's things where it's like Catherine has these long passages of things where that is like memorized or

Or I'm like well, this is Language that's like in her bones, so it should be the first stuff that's in mine And then when you say it was memorized or their parts of the play that are more Like when I'm excited something from god memory, but like I'm Catherine Yes, that's right. So weird

Yeah, it's like what do you mean from memory, but it's her memory Yeah, it's her memory, so I was like, well, that has to be something that's right and then that you can't go like that every what are things that I Yeah, sorry like long with no no no no, I mean, it's it's powerful and because I'm I'm thinking about these conversations With young people listening and young people that are interested in this kind of stuff because you guys all talked But we all have our theater experience when we were young. I mean, I was in the operator workshop

I mean, there's always you know, I had an on that friend in the community

You know, I mean, we all have that piece of a won't we I used to like improv when I was a little bit Yeah, yeah, I did and you know, it's like theater training prepares you for a lot more than acting

“That's what I think it plays a role in my comfort level of speaking and speaking in the way and or act with people”

You know, it's just a depth it's just what you get a depth that or what you hopefully You know, the one the biggest muscle is your flexing is just being a storyteller Mm-hmm and there's not any business that you can even name that doesn't have as one of its components What's the story that's right about this job? What's the story about this business? What's the story that this industry has so it is applicable to so many different

So many different things and it teaches you how to play well with others and it teaches you You know, you're not the center of the universe and you need to be, you know Malibu and there's given take and the strongest thing that you can be I think is a as a performer is a listener and you know be able to

“To reflect back what you hear and and be in conversation and I think that's all of those skills are very important to just manage life”

Yeah, I think also when I first like realized that maybe this is something that I wanted to do a big fear that I had Because both of my parents are not in the industry. Yeah, and we similarly it's like I have a god mom who Went to the first black anti church and we do Christmas program and she was in church And I'm a singer very one Yes writing church plays, you know, that sort of thing, but that was pretty much our

Preview of the whole thing. It didn't go much further than that I don't even think I realized writing was a job you could have I thought that there were actors and directors like I didn't You know, I didn't realize that people wrote the script things are so different from the The people who said them and the guy, you know, and like spikely I didn't really know that and I think I sometimes can forget because

I like I get sick of this out of my own voice that it can be helpful to hear those More granular parts of things and then more like practical tactical parts of things and that is what I think I was able to latch on to When I was also like convincing my parents That I would be okay, and that I could survive that actually there's unions Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think you don't like it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I figure it out

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Want to build something that's truly yours start your free trial at shopify.com/imo I know your parents were pretty on board where you always kind of the quirky kid Well, and it's me and my memories on like deeply normal And then my cousins are always like oh no, you're so funny and we're and I'm like okay Oh, yeah, also when I went back to my high school. Did I tell you this I went back in them my lunch my teachers came and said hey

And everybody was acting so weird But they were all like this is crazy. Yeah, like this is really weird Not really we thought you were gonna live in the house Well, like yeah, I was I was freaking I but I guess I was surrounded by other Like all my friends we were just all weirdos like and

My friend she came actually and The we just were remembering all these like insane things, but we We're supporting each other in that and I felt like our parents were really supportive of that because you know

“We were well behaved and we made sure the grades were right and so then yeah, if you want to like learn how to play”

Oh, but we're do improv her She's really obsessed with Michael Jackson at the time and so we she was like okay if you want to make videos where she's Michael Jackson Using like your dad's camp quarter and you're figuring out and whatever like fine and so yeah When I told my parents that I didn't want to study education anymore and that I wanted to

pursue this I remember I took them to an eye hop and I was like I was like this is gonna be the worst one of my life has some like sure that Me, you know, I'm a dad

Like those were the people who was I I wasn't taking the fun wall bus unsupervised at 10 It's like mama's taking you know, I had this passion and they were taking me to see the urban nutcracker

And to see what could when it came to Boston on during you know my dad was always showing me amazing movies

And I found out actually when I graduated Which is like funny thinking about the show and the legacies that we know and we don't know my dad wanted to study film He went to Emerson and then his dad found out because this was like analog days So you he basically was like yeah, everything's fine in America And then a cousin called my grandfather and was like he's not studying to be a lawyer

He's going to film school

“You can graduate yeah, and then you have to like apply to law school after because your parents are immigrants”

Yes, both of them. Yes, both of them. I'm lost from Barbados and my dad's from Nigeria Mm-hmm. Yeah, so they were definitely don't don't play. No, I said you're here to be a doctor But you know they had siblings and they you know they had things to do and people that help and secure things for and And I think yeah My it was a cool thing though. I was like oh my dad isn't continuing that cycle and he wants me to do well and you know

Make sure that everything is okay But he also knows that like there's no point in I don't know the slide if if you don't follow your passions Yeah, you know, but it's actually I've said this before. He was the my dad worked as a stationary farm and blue collar worker But my dad was a really gifted artist. I mean he's sculpted painted Got a scholarship to the art institute. We grew up in Chicago

But he didn't pursue those dreams because you know, what are you gonna add a raise a family? He had a you know So it's e e e e e e to understand that there was a generation of Parents and grandparents who couldn't do this. It wasn't even it was there in their bones

“But there reminds me I was gonna say my mom was also a frustrated artist. I think you know and it was I had a very luckily”

Very similar, you know Sort of Perspective from my parents who you know

I parents to drove me to Calards and drove me home and there was never any question about

What I wanted to do. They were like, oh, are you gonna pursue music or are you gonna pursue acting? Yeah, those are the two things that you've been passionate about and really want to do Similarly, you know, you got to do your schoolwork and get your grades into all that stuff, but They were like there was no question I was going to college that wasn't yeah, but they were just like you can pursue anything You want to college. You're going to college. Yeah, but whatever you study just really study it and be serious about it

And I can remember you know when I first started and it was hard and struggling and would be between jobs and calling my mom and saying I don't know if I made the right choice and she said you've been talking about doing this since you were Ten years old don't stop now See that's just a beautiful thing, you know, to have parents who were Routing you on when it's time to tough. We have a we have kids that are gonna do

Non-traditional things You know, I have a kid that's interested in the business and good writer. There is many a call where you know Because the business is crazy and the thing that I end there at times when she wonders whether in these times when there's so much going on Should she be writing You know and the thing I tell her is like they're they're going to be a lot of people who don't make it through these tough periods

They're just they're just not situated and especially when it comes to black voices Black writers Black directors yeah those of you who can stick in there and be there. We need them. We need you We're gonna need storytellers and people with different perspectives, you know So I mean, it's probably your parents were ahead of the curve

Both of you guys in thinking that through and understanding the power of having real Clear decent people with good minds of color in this business and thank God they did

“I think that's also why it's important that the proof has been reimagined for a black family”

First of all so many of us are you know there there's some people out there who don't want to believe that Their black families that are professors and clinical site Chiatrists and who are artists and

You know who are geniuses and I think it's powerful to have this family not talk about the truth of their reality

But just living in it, you know, it's like yeah, we exist in so many different forms with so many different other challenges other than poverty or

Exactly, can you guys talk a bit about

You know going back to the the the David Auburn of it all and You know the early conversations that you had with Tommy about it there was There's a clear understanding that these themes these a lot of these themes are universal But they do look different for different people and you know what does legacy mean and what we get to leave behind

And you know often it does it is about something financial and then this play it does center around the house And you know Who has ownership of that yeah, who has ownership of dad's work You know, what do we do with dad's work what does it mean you know to to to honor that or to

“Exploit it or you know, so I think that a lot of these themes”

Work but when we were talking about things like mental health something that has traditionally not so much anymore But I think you know has for a long time been like we just don't talk about that, you know I just Especially in the I mean you just have that wrong with you boy, yeah, you find I know he's in the basement Yeah, that's fine, you know now. Don't be there for a funny

He does something weird before But the TV tray is at the door. He's fine and don't look at me now. Don't look Uncle Ben and I I don't have an Uncle Ben But the Uncle Ben I'm a man It's bananas. Oh, but yeah, so I think that for for a black family Like I said we know the the things that we brought up today that as far as we have to use we have to figure out the word that we're using

When the police come because This Catherine may not get to be abusive Yeah

“To the police so maybe us have another scene in the play. Yeah, you know, so it's like what are the words?”

What happens? Yeah, what is happening? Yeah, what is happening? Yeah, and what's also happening underneath it What's happening is these two sisters are missing each other so how do we make? Can you know maintain that yeah while also still allowing the play to be Yeah, what it is and we're not detouring off into a play about that. That's right, but we also can't act like that's not something That also means something and Chicago. Yeah in the 1990s. Absolutely. Like so yeah, that's been cool. I think

To what you're saying also About this story and and the now it's so funny. It's like I didn't Really consciously think about it until we started doing press and I was thinking about that and what and I'm like what is that? That being the the The race aspect I guess and I'm like, oh, it's because I'm a black woman all the time

I'm not thinking about why this is timely. I'm I'm timely. I'm timeless. We are timeless. We exist

We've always existed we and we will continue to exist and persist and so it's like I don't know

I'm thinking about it always and everything I do and also at the same time I'm not thinking about it because I have to live my life because it's like yeah, we are absolutely All political bodies like right sure at the same time. I'm still in you know I'm a human being and

“David and his writing of this I mean it's like one of my favorite things and I think it's really hard to do as a writer and he does so brilliantly”

Every character is right and every character is wrong in the same Yep, well, we'll be trying to get this is the beauty of theater. I mean Yeah, you can do this in a movie, you know, but there is just something Different about real people on stage in the audience

Which yeah, can you talk about that because that's one thing we've never had

Experiences like what's it like sitting there because I sometimes is very noisy In a good way because people are like murmuring But that is exactly what was going on and what I found I think I said I was saying this to you guys is that there was just a lot of gutter oh I mean people were feeling it because I think all you know there's so many things and so many people who

We're seeing themselves or somebody they knew and some level, you know that I don't it didn't it was it felt like it was unexpected To the audience To get friends with some of this come in and it's I'm like I'm sure you as well not that not funny

Specific thing

Like my battery, why didn't you tell me it was two sisters and I'm like

My fault right, you know, yeah to that like that micro or as macro as like you're saying mental health You know an alien parent a lot of this come back people going like I just want to do this or I have to deal with this and If it had been an all black audience they would have been talking all the whole but like yeah, I don't Who do you think you are?

“Had some of that. I think that one point”

There's a there's a there's a scene or I'm taking things out of a backpack. Yeah, yep Yeah, this is also like we have to sometimes moments will happen and it's like I just find myself like looking or I'm just like I just need ice right now. I just need that is to stay here and then I can go back and great and a woman I just heard go oh You're Katherine I'm how

You're here right and I'm okay. What does this mean also for the rest of the show it was quite early on Orange appears yeah What is this gonna do you just don't know I told me that they were sitting in front of two black we're behind two black women and

When Karen came on for her second

scene they were like oh, here she go Here she go That's what I love us And the beauty of This reimagined revival is that it's gonna bring in new audiences. Yes, and I think that you know

I mean that brings life into it. It's a whole another generation It's a whole another community of people who are gonna be introduced to David Auburn and is writing in the complexities of

“a script and the these sets of characters and that's what you you're feeling and we have a lot of programs that we're”

Supporting in fantastic that they talk about the play supporting to to do just that to to broaden access To get students in at a price point that's not prohibitive because so much of it is prohibitive when you talk about you know these plays. They're so Out of reach for some people. I have like that. I met in college and

We're born and raised in New York and had never seen a Broadway show

because they're just wasn't in access. They can't afford it and they didn't go to the Right school be it public or private that had a program that would take them for a day. You know, it's it's like Kind of mind-boggling So yeah, we just both I think really had the intention and we're matched in that With our producers and to try to make accessibility real. I mean, how how do you guys

Specifically influence that decisions skin in the game Yeah, we're giving up. We're giving money back toward it so that we can Support it and having people match it and yeah going out and fundraising around with it and we were I mean I was like In a way that I think was newer for me You're the more risk but I was like I'm thinking of the people. I know who have money

And I'm and I'm figuring out how to write an email

“You're like do a call and and I think also just”

Meeting with arts and charity like that this is something that we really want because I think we've both been Beneficiaries of access and so some of those programs look like buy out nights that are going to happen Reaching out to different like schools and non-profits and the New York public school system Yes, part of the department of education you hear that y'all So you know, which one still pursuing some organizations for people who are just a barrier

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Salt Lake city branch terms and more at apple card dot com The community of actors that are supporting each other. I mean one thing I love hearing from You and Bridget Don is in your early days that community of young actors many of whom are still your friends You know who you all some of made it some haven't and what that meant to you and I owe I'm curious about whether that a similar community exists for you

“You want to talk a little bit. I think we were very lucky”

No Bridget and I bumped into each other a lot in the early days. You were all trying to get work in LA and I graduated when I graduated from Calanche I graduated with some you know some guys who are my similar types And we kind of all lived within a block or two of each other all to get you know roommates you know three sometimes three and a place two and a place but we all kind of live around each other When we would have auditions we would just everybody would go

Yeah, because I grew so I got an audition in Jeff I got an audition and we would bump rush the audition together And I'd go in and then I'd just you know becoming I'll go wait can you can you see my friend and they're like What I see him and then he'd go in and you go, hey one more of us can you see one more And you know if he gets the job you don't get the job I was like yeah, but we get the check

Yeah, yeah, we're trying to keep this money in here So if that's I got a bar from him. He's got a bar for me. Yeah, so you got to pull this this bread so One of us has to get it so we kind of had that mentality and we were very fortunate to have that because it was not that way For most of the people out there it was doggy dog. It was a throw But something about having that kind of comfort

“Also made it that when I think we walked in the room we weren't like the sweaty desperate”

To get this thing which is for a lot of you know you you can that feels uncomfortable You want to be around somebody you're like I want to be around this person So we were able to sort of that community kind of help each other feel that and then it just kind of spread All of us were out there trying to do the same thing and so many of us Know each other and new each other from that time and you know what are my closest friends from that time?

His daughters my god daughter and they live she lives with my kids They all live together still knowing their 30s and so it's

It was just something that's that's amazing. I'm still very close with those guys and um

I do think it was a rare and and fortunate thing and I feel very lucky that That we had that doesn't sound like the business we hear talk about it is not it is not and now anymore

I had when I started we went into room and talked to human beings and I mean when I started you went into room and

“Talk to human beings and then like in the middle of that story. It changed. So what is it now?”

So these are like camera in the corner and you're doing self-tapes. Yeah, sometimes you don't get the whole script or you get They're supposed to be all these things that changed around it like you couldn't get Six pages the night before to have to memorize and come in and that kind of I don't think anyone's obeying that stuff It doesn't they're still doing so you're meant to have like a camera set up in a good mic in a backdrop In a black place where you can shoot it and you're expected to without benefit of notes without

Benefit of any insight from anyone who's created this figure out yourself or your friends are directing you You're reading with whoever's available. You are maybe like if you're not borrowing space from a friend They're they popped up in a way. I don't know if they're they still exist, but it's psychotic

Rooms that you would pay for. Oh, yeah, I'm sure it's like you're paying too hard to do the right to not get it to not get it get you know, it's it's a lot

Which is just making it a more exclusive Experiencing yeah So the business is Changing every day and now with this insane merger that might happen

“It's like there's gonna be fewer and fewer places to work. Yeah, we don't we don't I think we don't know”

So when people ask me what they can do yeah to become an actor. I say do anything else And And if that's gonna discourage you then maybe you shouldn't do it. Yeah, you know because it's gonna be a slog Unless you get super super lucky or just undeniable. So I say work. Yeah, just work. Read play is right right right

You know do you don't have to just work when you get a job you can be working on being a better actor

A better writer on your own all the time you have an iPhone you can make a movie And that is kind of a feel like upload it. Me and my friends are my cohort I guess that I think about a lot of us Did come up generating our own material when I think about Rachel Senate when I think about Quinto and like you know that we He's a real

We were and fall yeah, I mean we were following them and Donald people, you know where it's like okay Right now you make sketches and you post them online or you tweet or you know you do Funny Instagram posts make videos like you do these things At the same time though those are also the people with like Rachel and I would ride the train and we would swap sets and give each other notes on our sets You know and and I would go to Quinto and she'd be like cool

I went to this you know, I did sets here here and here Zach went here here and here. These rooms are good for this these rooms are good for that We were doing work in the real world as well as online and I think exchanging information with each other as well Not wanting to get keep from each other just to what you're saying also like I Really was resoning with that like oh the people that I was

Friends with and that I connected with and I still feel connected to I don't think Ever felt like that threat of like I have to do the only one in the room Yeah, you know like I really do believe and there's more friends that I just will not name drop But where it's like we all knew that there was space for each other especially amongst like black women Remember like having a conversation and then like in the name drop, but like with Z-way and a job when she was writing and I was still assisting and

She was like yeah, well, that's like obviously like a trick that they want to plan us to Get study each other out. There's space for all of us. Yes, and if there isn't then we make space for each other though There you go and I would well like I was like such a little baby writer and I was like the god, you know There's people like that good and Janelle James is at that same job in the same thing. She was like, yeah, they're not gonna know it

You think they're gonna get us no, we stay in it and that is I think a real skill that

“Endurance that you know fortitude that you have to learn and that's pretty”

invaluable. I think just as much as talent sometimes even more I'm sure you can think of people I can't who are I go this was the most talented person that I have a new person great can't bust a great You know and and when the going gets tough, they they back out which is not to say that that isn't you know valid and that

You feel like they can get hurt and be hard and long and Confusing and you can I mean it's in careers are Their highs and lows. There's highs and lows and it's a weird thing also when it's like your passion The and especially if it's connected to creativity but not just that but if when your passion becomes your vocation when it becomes capital

You know it's it's trippy it's really trippy yeah, and so being able to

You know, we had a day or a height to you was just like, help

Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know I guess I did Well having you to the dynamic duo in this play is it's really the magic but the entire cast is magic And we are just grateful that you guys made the decision to you know Dip your toe back into the theater lane because it it absolutely matters for all of the reasons that we talked about

Before we close What's next is the question what's next for you? I owe you or oh or dot you may have So let's just what are you playing next is May There are things Things that are supposed to happen after words and you know, do you say that because it's like it could happen it might not or I know

That because some could happen some might not some are definitely happening, but I don't know that I want to happen with them So you know Yeah, it's like I don't it's yeah, and it's that's real. It's real

“You know that the one thing or the right well look I think”

Anyone at any time can say what they want To do with their time and what is valuable for their to do with their time because it's the one thing I don't care how much they pay you you can't buy You can't get it back. Yeah, and you don't want to be in a situation where you look back and go Wow, I just wasted eight months of my time or six months of my time

You know, especially when I'm a little half dead Yeah, you know, so you don't want to like choose why you don't want to mess that up I forgot yeah, you forgot I'm sorry I know That's there's definitely and in surprisingly more than there have ever been

For me things lined up For years that if I wanted to actually push go on That I know I would be booked for a long and long time. Yeah, so I'm trying to be strategic and mindful and thoughtful about how I really want to want to do this because and then there's life

“That's what I'm saying we are predisposed as actors, you know”

To have that engine of like I got eat

Get eat eat eat eat eat eat it. It's never gonna it's not gonna be here. I'm unemployed again. Well, if I don't take this job

There's never gonna be another job. You know, it's easy to get in that you know hamster wheel mindset Even though we've done it for so long and you feel like that's I can't logically support that that's true But it could be yeah, you know, are they gonna find out? Realize it. Oh You're actually a bum. Yeah, you're never getting another job

So Probably would get into the cheetah leaves. He's a bum. He's a mom. Yeah. Yeah, you know There's been snow and it's been years Oh Yes

So yeah, we'll see we'll see they're one of the six jobs that's coming up of or two. I'll probably do I won't talk about him right now. Okay. Okay. We'll have you back. Okay. Yeah, we'll talk about him back. Yeah What about you? What about me? What about me? I I am excited to finish this play and then I also have a well, I'm the opposite I guess. I have some time

Three for the first time on the acting side in a really long time because bear as jamian

Weakers has announced rarely ending and that's really cool and Scarian exciting and yeah, and then I'm writing again and I'm working on a few things some have been announced some of not

“But I'm not going to do it. I don't know. You're a secret keeping mode”

Breaking news on I am out. Yeah, but yeah, I'm excited about that and excited to kind of Maybe I just turned 30. Now you're old now. I'm kidding. It hits me out of young haul.

I really and like friends who are older than me and not even by that much who literally I would be like 28 and they would be like 31 They'd be like be careful, you know be careful about your energy and I'd be like I don't believe And then it's like oh my god, there's my body And it's tired and I do need to rest now, so do need to like recuperate in order to generate Like it may be

The reserve was a lot deeper because it was just coming from a place of all this expression that had I felt like I was able to do for so long and this you and there's three oh my god. It's like Because you're just young. You got energy and it's like now when I stand up I have to stretch like my dog's sunny Okay, because you just can't go and what I do is I also

“That'll be you need to take a break. Great. Okay, so then maybe I make some supplements. Oh, yeah, I need you to leave him like a statue”

Stretched remember, well, yes, he's leaving. And that's my biggest thing. Yeah, no You like morning and night that type of vibe or you do it. I need you to do more of it, but yeah, he's to do it

Like got 90 minutes session once a week. That's amazing. Okay. Yeah, yeah, so that's good

That's something for me log and maybe not do for a minute. You don't have to do for 90 minutes No, but but this has been making me need need to be more physical in a way that's really great Yeah, like the eight shows a week things like you really can't take it for granted. It's a workout. Yeah I mean, that's like a whole other podcast secretly very woo-woo and the things that we're talking about like Life and the things that I've learned in the past few years I've become really interested in our bodies as like

Yeah, as just like instruments and the things that we are maybe not as connected to in like Western society that like that there's I don't know that there's other civilizations I've been in bed this thing and do without better than my linear you know and my father is a cancer survivor And when he was sick he got really into like Eastern medicine and and I'm really genuinely that's like he's the same

“And now it's like we both are like so like what's going on with you?”

And he's somebody who like I think that was definitely a joke for him and I had one image of him, you know of my childhood and now he's the one who's like going on jogs and

Doing his little peloton and T does yoga and all these amazing things and I and I really am like while you're a

lighter Happier person Yeah, then maybe who I grew up with Yeah, partly because I think you're like in communication with your body in a way that you were not because

You do that A man You didn't mean to be on the floor like people don't even like to be on the floor

“The clothes on to get on the floor that's exactly like the idea of never forget moontelling”

I mean people where they're like are you grounding and I'm like I'm like a certain year old where you're talking about and I'm like no take you shoes off until the earth Like I'm good like you might as well ask me to eat a bug That means the bug has to stay Oh

Anyway, you two it's it's been a delight

I proud of you as always love you to death loving you

So completely you that this world is is you Yeah, do you got a little Catherine in you I remember the heart our first meeting yeah, we had You know, I'm sure I was like because we were like this young girl She's got and got a thing so we just reached out. It's like girl what you up to nothing And she came over to the vineyard

I'm sure you were wondering okay, I'm here and she sat down and she was so Like yes And Barack and I were like yeah, we know that that girl. Yes. Yeah, we we know a lot that quirky weird genius

curiosity

So that you are old person like me and Don on the other side. I don't know if I love it It's fortunate to get this one You're right Get mind you

“That was genuinely also like a maybe the most exciting 36 hours of my life”

Sound loss of the the day after I threw the first pitch. Oh

For the red sauce my that's yeah first pitch and did we have lunch? Did we feed you did we yeah? Yeah, it was really good Really good. It was a really beautiful day. Yeah, yeah, well it's good to see you blowing up

“You have earned every bit of it. I want to make sure that our audience goes to see proof and”

On Broadway until July

It is an amazing production and to all the young people who are going to benefit from this

Accessibility program. Yeah, we want to hear from you. You know young folks who get to see proof Want to hear about those conversations that people are having after the show Yeah, you can see here. You will go in you know if you go with family you're I'm going to be talking for a couple of weeks about it So my friends came with actually he came with his mom and dad the night that you guys were there And he was like they were already talking about the plan and admission and then they realized that they'll

He was like and so now it's like connect forever forever. Yeah, yeah, and you never know we might be there

Let's go my drop-by Come in with notes

“Honestly perfect like for sure for sure, but they're no notes. You guys have done it up. Thank you”

Congratulations. Thanks for being here. Love you guys . You