You Need to Learn to Say No (Even to an Inauguration) with Taraji P. Henson [From the Archives]

What did that do to me? Yes.

Internally, my soul we made it through, we got out of life.

I hope we made the country proud.

“My girls thank God our whole, but what happened to me?”

Right, right. Craig Malcolm Robinson. Michelle Levant Robinson. Not Robinson. Obama.

Obama. What do you, what, 30 years? How's it going? It's going well. It's going well.

How are you doing? Doing, doing well. Yeah. Yeah, happy to be here with you. We've got a great show coming up.

I'm so excited. But we are here in LA and you win your thing. I'm doing my thing. Is staying in an Airbnb again? I tell you every time I stand one, it makes me want to stand one wherever I go.

You know, we're going, we're, the boys have a tournament coming up in a month or so. And rather than standing a hotel, we're going to get an Airbnb so we can do all of our own, cooking and washing of dirty uniforms. Yeah, yeah. So I'm really excited.

“Yeah, you're just becoming an Airbnb official.”

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm quite impressed. I absolutely have enjoyed my time.

Because you know, I was always Mr. Hotel.

You were points and all that stuff. You seem younger than you are. That makes you more up to date than, you know, your age portends. You live in like a young person. I know, I know.

But Airbnb is for everyone of all ages and you were living proof of that. I am, I am. Well, how excited are we? Very, very excited. Well, folks, we, I'm, I'm going to get right to our guests because we want to bring her out of it because this is one of those. And I am a huge fan and I've got goosebumps.

Let me just say, my brother has been giddy, low-silly, giddy all day. And he even wore a whole suit. I did this one. Because usually in jeans, it's like, there's usually, we don't know what's going on down there. But you could, but your top matches your pants today.

That means we got somebody special. See what happens. See, see what happens when you try to clean yourself up. You just take full advantage. But we are guests today is none other than Taraji P. Henson.

And she is an Academy Award-nominated actor, producer, and number one, New York Times bestselling author, mental health advocate, and entrepreneur. Yeah, yeah, she's on her own stuff. Yeah, she's starring in Tyler Perry's straw on Netflix, which I watched the trailer.

And I was crying on the trailer. I know, I know. Right, she'll do that. She does it to you, she does it to you. Yeah, I can't wait for that to come out.

I know, I know. She is also the founder of the Borsell Henson Foundation, named after her father. Which works to enhance access to mental health services within black communities. She has also wants TPH by Taraji, a line of spa inspired products. And is the strategic advisor for seven daughters, Mascado.

Mm, Mascado. I got me a bottle. I had two bottles. I made let you try my-- Let me try my-- let me try my own, I would love that.

But without any further ado, Taraji, please come out. I'd like to join the love list. Yay! It's really nice. It's so hard for me to get in here.

I just want to get in here. I don't know. But you've got your hair. Thank you. Love yours too.

Thank you. Oh, my goodness. Um, it took a while to do mine, so-- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lookin' good, lookin' good.

It was the last night. What did the very last night was? One of the last parties I can't remember. So I think it was. Yeah, yeah.

“I think it was, but I just never forget I was leaving.”

Mm-hmm. And I thought it was pretty late. It was. I'm leaving 'cause I'm tired. My feet hurt.

I have no socks. And I remember when we were staying there. You could-- Yeah, I was just like, girls. I mean, I'd like to walk into the car.

Yes, because my feet, I danced out of my shoes. And Tom Hanks was walking across the floor. So I said he's too quiet.

I would never forget that.

Well, we are thrilled beyond thrilled to have you here. Let me just fan girl a little bit. That does. I didn't get to do that at the party when I saw you, but we are huge fans.

And you, oh, man, you just bring every part of you to the work that you do.

And I will never forget my reaction.

“And I know a lot of actors like you who do so many things”

don't want to get pigeonholed into one role. But let me just say, cookie on empire. I mean, I got on the phone to people when you showed up on screen, because I was like, this is a real character. I mean, this is like, I felt all of who cookie was.

And I call people on the phone. I was like, you have got to watch empire. This is a different kind of a series that's coming on. And it was because of your performance, and then to see the trailer of straw, which is the story of black women

at the edge of everything, and just the trailer alone, as Craig said, has brings you to tears. I guess I just want to know where does all that come from, and that little bit of body yours? Well, I am trying.

I want to get to know what's the power there. But as an actor, sometimes you know sharing a bit of the character's joy or pain, mind might bleed in a little bit. And I've been through some things in life. It wasn't easy growing up in the hood, whenever.

But I made it out. Yeah.

But life will throw curveballs at you, and it's not always--

I know people look at celebrities and they're like, oh, you got it made because you're rich. But the great guru, Biggie Small says, more money, more property, you know, you think your problems go away, because you finally made it or whatever.

And it's like, no, you get more problems, more expensive problems. But again, the training and just being true to the character,

“and I think as an actor, what we do is very spiritual.”

Because we use our bodies as vessels to tell a character's truth. And so I can't judge that character. Right. A lot of times I do, like I just cook you at first. I was like, oh, my God, she's a horrible guy.

I did. It was hard not to. But the job of the actor is to show the why. Yeah. And when you show the why, that's when you gain empathy.

Yeah.

Because there's always a why.

Well, you know, I'm a trained athlete. So different. But when you said that, you know, I'm trained, you know, I never think of that with non-athletes and that is it's a real skill, but I'm just sitting here getting nervous because every time I watch you on the screen, I feel something emotionally and I just want

to thank you for that because it is a, I mean, just, I'm thinking about, you know, Benjamin button. I'm thinking about proud Mary, I mean, proud Mary, you know, I still have a 15-year-old on a 13-year-old. Oh wow.

So that, that hit me, you know, the, yeah, I will let my kids watch our rated movies if you're in them. I want to know some of the, the why of Taraji, the real woman. You know, because you are doing a little bit of everything now, you know, you are not just acting and winning awards, but you're building an empire of your own.

Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that because you just had, you know, a major win personally on the business side, gaining more control over your own stuff, can you talk a bit about your company? Yes.

TPH, I don't know if a lot of people, the mayor may not know this about me, but I didn't get accepted into Duke Alexander School of Fine Arts in Washington, D.C. and the next thing, my next passion was cosmology. I love doing hair and nails and makeup, but I missed, you had to enroll in a ninth grade. I missed it by a year and I just think it was God, you know, I wasn't supposed to go down

“that path, but that's, that's always been a passion of mine, that's how I fed myself”

in college, you know, because I didn't have money. And so I would do $20 wet sets, because I had a hooded dryer out of my normal room. And you went to Howard, and I went to Howard, but my first, I started at North Carolina Antique because I really didn't think I could answer it. And then my father let me fall flat on my face because math is not, I'm not mathematically

wired. I'm an artist of the ball, and so when I failed pre-calc, my dad was like, that's what you get.

Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. I thought you were saying your dad. No, he wasn't.

No, he knew that I was a performer. He was telling me when I was little that I was winning Oscar, you're going to be one of the greatest actors alive, and because I'd been hearing that so much from him, and I did not get accepted into Duke Galington. I couldn't, I didn't know how to take that, you know, take that failure on the chin.

I did keep it in the first scene, or what was that?

12. Yeah. You believe that. Yeah. That must mean I can't act.

Sure. You know. Well, and having raised my children in Washington, done a lot of work with Duke Galington's school, and to put it in perspective. It's, it's like the Whitney Young, the Magnet School that I went to, you know, you know, well-funded school. You know, that that just pushes out a lot of amazing artists all over the place.

So I can imagine you grew up with that being your, you know, my north star. So I just thought that I just thought I didn't have the talent. And so imagine me going back to Howard. I felt out of sorts, and then finally when I got back into the groove, and I found my footing, everybody was like, "Well, you know, you went to Duke Galington."

And I was like, "No, I didn't." Then it makes that to me. Well, that is, you know, a beautiful thing to have a black bandy, right? Right. I know.

Believe in his baby so much in a very challenging and non-traditional career. Yeah. You know, what a blessing that was. That man being that winged, when beneath your wings.

“Yeah, it was because you know, in the day of, you should be a doctor.”

You need to be a lawyer. He really saw my gift. So, but like I said, I was doing $20 wet set.

So hair in cosmatology has always been in me.

And I remember when I first got to Hollywood, and I started working, and I had to cut in the four weeks when I was in college. So when I got to Hollywood, I heard about women. I lost my edges, and I didn't want to lose my edges, and I started working.

See, we had that issue to create. [laughs] You see what she said? She said, "We have that too, and then she looks up at my head." Well, that's what happens.

That's what happens. Maybe if you were in the studio. Maybe if you were in the studio. Maybe if you were in the studio. Maybe if you were in the studio.

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Maybe if you were in the studio. is this even still what I want to do? Wow. You know, because of the exhaustion. Acting. Yes. Friends, relationships, career goals, big life anxieties, we get into all of it on the show. It's become a kind of therapy for me. But just to be clear, I am a firm believer in actual therapy as well. Therapy isn't only for moments of crisis. It's for anyone who wants more support, clarity or tools for navigating

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your doctor, call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepound.ly.com. Also to having to do so many jobs because the money the math wasn't mapping. I wish I had the luxury of just doing one film a year. Right,

I could imagine, right? Yeah. It's not. Yeah. So when you see us working a lot, it's because

we kind of have to. Yeah. Well, Teragia, what you just said about being burned out, I hear my sister talk about that. And I didn't hear my mom talk about that. But I want to, I want to dig deeper into that a bit. Where does that start? Do you think you were trained to take on all of these things or did you develop that because you just, you're out of necessity. Out of necessity to be excellent because we have to be so much more, we have to be so much better than most

to get where we want to be or is it innate just in our culture because where we have been because of slavery and the, it was really the black woman who had to protect the family because the black man was getting sold all over the place. Where do you think that comes from from you? And then I want to hear where it comes from from from. I think the culmination of all of it because there is things that happen this way, we're still in our DNA. That's still a part of

who we are. Right. You know, so I can't run from that. That's my makeup and watching my mother do it, watching my grandmother do it. You know, it's just what I'm used to. I'm learning, unlearning that trauma is where I am now. You know, but for so long it was just this is what you do. Yeah, you know, I watched my mother work two jobs, you know, and to put food on the table and

“paid a rent for a little apartment, you know. And so I grew up going, that's what you have to do. You”

got to work however many jobs and grind hard to make it happen. I was a single mother. So I didn't have time to sit down. I remember one day and it's like, myself, like four years old, I was so tired. I wanted to cry. Like, you know, I don't think I wouldn't wish being a single parent on my worst enemy, literally because, you know, think about when you're exhausted. And it's like, the baby's crying. Oh, can you go get them honey? There was no honey that I was honey. Yeah. Yeah. So if I worked 12

hours and I still honey, I was still honey. I still, if the baby sick, I everything fell on me. You know, and I just remember one day, I just, I wanted to, I was on the sofa and I just wanted to

“give up. But that's not in me either. You know, I think those thoughts, but then my ancestors go,”

girl, you better get up. You know, and that's the, you know, the part of what you said that you never

heard mom complain about it. I think that that's part of the, part of the issue. Part of the drama. You know, we grew up, our, our, our, our grandmothers, you know, grandma Levant, grandma Rebecca, you know, these were all women, all black women had to work. Yep. Our mother was fortunate. She didn't work until I went to high school, but that was a choice that she and my father made because so we lived off of one salary. And we made huge sacrifices for that because I think

my mother understood that if she was going to be the kind of mother she wanted to be, that we would forgo live in a good life, that we live in a little bit of apartment and just make ends meet,

but that was a rare thing. But you've never heard these women complain because it wasn't what,

“it was just the way life was. And I think that that's part of our drama too,”

because we grew up with women who weren't voicing, no, the pain, no, and the burden. They made it look easy. And when you make stuff look easy, people assume that you must like this. Yeah. It's okay with you, right? Right. You know, we don't articulate as black women are pain because it's almost like nobody ever gave us permission to do that. And does anyone care? Yeah. There's that we do, I think we would care. If we knew, if we knew. Or, you know,

and we have to ask ourselves, are the men in our lives is, you know, why wait to be asked? You know, it seems like what we go through is pretty obvious. I mean, maybe we're not complaining, but we're actually living life out loud. You know? You know, you see us carrying these babies, you see us working a job and coming home and managing, getting food on the table and handling doctors

why should we have to ask? Yeah. You know, it seems, it seems apparent. And as black women,

sometimes we, you know, there is that underlying thing we're socialized to believe from very early on that we don't deserve any better, you know? Or that this is life for us. It's going to be hard. Like, I grew up just expecting it. You know, I did. And you know, it wasn't until, you know, like my son, he's growing up. There's no dad around my father and no sex. His father was murdered two years prior to that. And so it's like, who do I turn to? You know? And then,

as you know, young boys, as he's growing up the roles, color glasses come off and he's starting to see life for a young black man. And that was difficult. And I'm not a black man. So how do I help him maneuver through this? And you know, I was like, we need help. And it was time to look for therapy,

which I never shunned therapy because my father was a Vietnam vet. And he always talked

about his struggles open. And so I was like, well, then we need help. And so I started looking for help for us. And when I couldn't find anyone who looked like us, because now I got to get my son to open up just someone. And he's not going to feel right. Yeah. And the person doesn't feel familiar. And I was like, something has to be done here. That's when I launched the horse Lawrence Henson Foundation and honor of my father. Because I know in our community, we just do

not talk about mental health. We don't. Exactly. We do not. Because we are demonized. We are chastised. We're, it's a, it's looked upon as weak. You know, and we give it to God. We give it to God.

“And that's not that's an important. It's, God is very important. It's an important. But God”

gifted humans to be therapist and help of humans. So it go hand in hand. You need both. So I was like, this is a real problem. We started looking at the numbers and only like 7% of the therapists, clinicians and psychiatrists were of color. I was like, this is because our children don't know to, to go into this career. Even study this in college. And so I was like, we have to do something about this. That's when I started to work in the mental health. That's when I started checking myself.

Like, whoa, you have been operating dysfunctionally for a while. You know, so a lot of stuff I'm doing now is undoing. Yeah. It's a lot of undoing. Yeah. But it's, I'm, I'm grateful, because I feel better. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, and then I can help this generation come in behind to not fall into the same, you know, traps that I did and believing the same things that, you know, we just didn't know

“otherwise to believe. Well, I think that's why it's important for us and tables like this. Yeah.”

Women like us who do have a platform to talk openly about the challenge that it challenges that we face, not because we are complaining, which we don't want to ever be complaining, but because we need to change, we need to turn that cycle on its head. Yeah. And we have to talk about our stresses openly, you know. And also as black women, we are so easily labeled as angry and bitter. And let me tell you some of the most hurtful stuff that I experienced, you know, entering

this life of public service at the heights that we entered into was during my husband's presidential campaign and just me telling the truth of who we were. You know, you know, just humanizing him as a man saying he's, you know, he's a great man, but he's not perfect. You know, he's got his

full foibles and his flaws trying to humanize him. The first thing that some female journalist

said is that I was bitter, I was, I was emasculating him just by sort of trying to tell the truth

“about what life is, right? And then you get labeled as angry, you know, because you talk forcefully”

or passionately about something, even if it's in the context of of great joy and pride that the first label they put on us as black women is that we are angry. And you know, the irony is is like, yeah, I, I am probably less light than many of my white female friends. I, I, I see that

and some of my, my, my white female friends, I see a lightness and ability to be in the world and

see what's going on, but still be not as burdened about it as, I think I am, you know, I think that what I see happen in the news, you know, the assault on immigration rights, the, you know, the, the challenges that face our community, the inequality, I think it, it burns at me in a different way because it affects you, yeah, it affects your children, yeah, it affects you, yeah, so imagine, you know, we wake up every day, just carrying that, yeah, you know, even if it doesn't directly

affect me, sometimes I just have to stop reading the paper, yes, so that I can, I can stop thinking

about all that's wrong, sometimes I don't know about you, Torajie, I can't stop thinking about it,

“right, yeah, that's why I have to, I'm not as, you know, I'm not on social media that much, you know,”

as you get older, you realize what's important and how to protect your peace and honestly social media, we're not supposed to feel all of the emotions that we feel in that short span of scrolling, one minute you're laughing the next year, angry next month, you want to cry, that's, that's not even, that's not right, yeah, yeah, yeah, something is wrong about that, but you know, a lot of times that's where you get the news and or you, you see something disturbing in it, I'm an empath,

I thought I'd take things on, I stopped watching the news a long time ago, yeah, I had to, because sometimes I feel like are they trying to scare us? Like, is there anything good

“happening out there? So I had to stop to protect my peace. Well, speaking of taking care of”

ourselves and we, we like to think of IMO, this sort of therapy for the folks who aren't quite there, yeah, and in that vein, I'd love to get to our listener question from Shantay from North Carolina. We're not even halfway through the year, and as a black woman, I feel burned out. It's not just the world in politics, but it's also the expectations of myself and others as it pertains to my personal life, like career, family issues that my job, obligations I feel

pressured into, and more. I don't know you personally, but I imagine he might have been here before, any advice? Mm-hmm, and learn the word, no, yeah, yeah. Well, I know, I know this, this hits both of you in a different way or in a similar way. Well, you embarked upon an interesting journey to find your peace recently. Can you share some of your tools for trying to find that peace? Well, I'll tell you this, no is my favorite word. Yeah, no. No is, and I found out

how powerful no is, especially in this town. This is the town of Yes. Yes, men. Yes, I'll do it. Yes,

whatever you need just to make me start. You know, but no is so powerful because that is you taking up for yourself. No, I don't feel like coming to dinner. No, I don't want to do that role. I don't, that doesn't serve a purpose for me. Yeah. I know the check is great. Maybe that's someone else's blessing. Yeah. You know what I mean? And the relief that I get from saying no, because I know I'm protecting my peace. Mm-hmm. I know I'm doing a good thing because for a while,

I was the yes girl. The people please are, you know, and I just couldn't do it anymore,

“because it wasn't servicing me and I wasn't, I wasn't feeling fulfilled. Because why am I doing this?”

I've had to cut people out of my life. It's okay. You wait me down. You know, I can't carry your load and mine. You know, family members even. Yeah. Sorry. And you don't learn that it's unfortunate. You don't learn it until you get older. That's right. You know, because in your 20, you're just, I'm ready to do it all. Even then you're 30 still. But as I, you know, I'll say about 45, I was like, yeah, I'm not going to do that anymore. That doesn't serve me. Yeah. That doesn't

make me happy inside. And if I say yes, that person's happy, but then I'm left to carry

young son? And I say young to 30 still young. Yeah. Very young. Do you encourage him to therapy,

“because I'll tell you, you know how black men are with their, we, we ain't really feel in the therapy”

thing. No, he's not like that at all. Oh, that's great because we need to educate our young black men that therapy is a good thing. We go to therapy together. You think of mother's son relationship is easy. Yeah. Without a dad. That's right. Yeah. It's not for relationships need work. You know, even the relationships with my girlfriends, you know, we get in our little stuff sometimes, but, you know, we're in a place where we're all in therapy.

You know, when I hear you talk about the practice, what I'll call the practice of no, because you're absolutely right. And I know that everyone struggles with disappointing people, with trying to set boundaries. But I particularly relate to, you know, what you are saying about, it takes you a while before you, you know, maybe as a woman as a black woman, where we feel comfortable saying, no, I'm sitting here thinking, well, why is that? And why was that for me? Because this is

something that I am working on right now. You know, I, I but like you, I have believed in therapy my whole life. You know, done a couple therapy with my husband, both my girls, or they believe in

“therapy, this generation. Thankfully, I think our children, our way more open to it. They understand”

the importance of self-help and all of that. Also sort of realize that, you know, even Michelle

Obama, I am still trying to tell myself that I am doing enough, right, because there's always

that feeling. I think we practice that striving because in order to be successful, I always felt like I had to be smarter, faster, work harder because somebody was going to doubt me. Somebody was always already telling me why I couldn't do something before they knew me or even try. So you getting the, and I don't think this is unique to just women of color. I don't think it's just unique to men. But when you get in that habit of that constant striving and constant proving that, you know,

“it's enough. It makes us overachievers, but you don't ever turn that off. And at 60, I was still,”

I had to convince myself that I had done enough. After all, then I had done in the world. I still felt a guilt, right, struggling with like deep guilt that maybe maybe I needed to do a little bit more.

So I met this stage in life where I have to define my life on my terms for the first time. So

what are those terms? And going to therapy, just to work all that out. Like, what happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me? Yes. Internally, my soul, we, we made it through. We got out of life. I hope we made the country proud. My girls thank God our whole. But what happened to me? Right. Right. Right. And going through therapy, you know, is getting me to look at the fact that it may be, maybe, finally, I'm good enough. Right. And

unlearning some of those messages that I've been saying to myself and then trying to actively practice something different to rewire those neurons in my head that make me keep pushing. And keep striving. And so practicing no in a very different way intentionally. But then this is what makes it hard because, you know, my decision to skip the inauguration, you know, what people don't realize or my decision to make choices at the beginning of this year that suited me,

were met with such ridicule and criticism like people couldn't believe that I was saying no for any other reason that they had to assume that my marriage was falling. Right. You know, it's like, well, I'm here really trying to own my life and intentionally practice making the choice that was right for me. And it took everything in my power to not do the thing that was right.

That was a hard thing for me to do. I had to basically trick myself out of it and it started with

not having anything to wear. I mean, I had affirmatively because I'm always prepared for any funeral,

anything. I have, I walk around with the right dress. I travel with clothes just in case something pops off. So I was like, if I'm not going to do this thing, I got to tell my team, I don't even want to have a dress ready. Yeah. Right. Because it's so easy to just say, let me do the right thing. But then you become a shock absorber. Yeah. And that's what women are shock absorbers. Yeah. And that's exhausting. And it is not healthy. Yeah. It is not healthy. You've had to be shock absorbers

for your husband, for your children, for your mom, for your family, your loved ones because of

where you were sitting in the public eye. That's not fair. To you, when do you ever get to live

for you? I applaud you. I am, I'm happy that you are taking care of yourself in the way that you need to. Yeah. You know, I've been talking to me about this. And opting out might be that that's a great prognosis or a great suggestion or a strategy for folks who are feeling the way we're feeling the way we're talking about here. Because you can't keep pushing through that's detrimental that could end very bad because you're not paying attention.

I mean, I had a girlfriend one time. She had, she was taking on so much. She didn't even realize she spilled hot grease on her chest. Well, she just just figured her entire chest doing too much.

“I mean, physically, it's impossible. You have to stop and go, whoa, what's happening with me?”

You know, I have to check out. I'm sorry, everyone. I have to check out for my own safety insanity. Yeah. And it's a hard thing to do, but you must. You must. I don't know what that's sending the kids away for summer. I used to get on my mom because that last day at school, my bag was in the trunk. He was driving, but that was all right. And I, I, I, I, I, I understand. I totally get it. I understand that woman needs a break. And I was a lot as a kid. I was very

rambunctious. Probably undiagnosed, ADHD, but here we are. Found a way to turn it. Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but yeah, you're saying you're just learning. I'm just learning. It's something that you have to do. And hopefully, Sean Tay, you will get this message from hearing from me and from Queen Michelle that you have to take time for yourself. And spite of making

“people happy. At some point, you have to make yourself happy. Yeah. Yeah. Is that sample?”

And one of the ways I started thinking about this, you know, because this is the habit. It's like, maybe if I'm, maybe I, I'm still working on being able to do things just solely for myself and being okay with that. I'm still working on it. Yeah. Through therapy and conversations like this and talking to my friends, but I'm still thinking about the example I'm setting for my daughters. Mm-hmm. Right. So I am trying now that they are 23 and 26 talking to them about, yeah, my

menopause brain, I'm like, yeah, how old are they? Um, is what he's referring to. I want them to start practicing now. Mm-hmm. The art of saying no. Yes. Because I see it in them, you know,

pleasing, excelling. Um, not wanting to take anything for granted. Always showing gratitude. Right.

Feeling like they're enough right now. Right. It's a practice. It is. Right. It's a muscle that

“you have to build because if you don't constantly build it, you don't develop it. And I think we,”

we suffered because it's almost like we're, we just, we started training late in my, yeah, to build that muscle. Mm-hmm. Right. Uh, I, I am just now starting to build it. Right. Yep. I want our daughters. I want the young women out there. And I, you know, I know we were talking about women of color, but we're talking about women and we're talking about all people. Yeah. Who take on too much. I mean, we can identify and relate to our why as black women,

but I don't, I don't presume that other people aren't dealing with the same struggles. Right. So,

them to, because if I'm showing up at this stage of my life and they are seeing me still wonder whether I deserve to say no. What does that teach them? If I, after all that I've done in this world, if I'm still showing them that I have to keep, I still have to show people that I love my country,

that I'm doing the right thing, that I'm always setting, going high all the time,

even in the face of a lot of hypocrisy and contradiction. Right. All I'm doing is keeping that crazy bar that our mothers and grandmothers set for us. So, I'm trying to teach them just like, you know, Sean Tay, you got to start practicing your, your nose, so you, you build that muscle,

“the sooner the better. The sooner the better. And here's the thing, what, what I've realized in,”

practicing no a little bit, people can handle no. They really can. They have no voice. That's fabulous. Really. And we know that important. You know, the world doesn't stop starting, because I said, no, to your event, they usually just move on to the next thing. Yes. Absolutely. And so, you know, life goes on. And if we, if we stop carrying the load, maybe somebody, we set it down. Somebody will pick it up. Absolutely. You know,

somebody will pick it up. I just celebrated. We, my family, just celebrated my grandmother's 101 birthday. Wow. Thank you. And this woman who raised eight of our own children, one niece, raised nine children, was married for 61 years before my grandfather passed away. I see her living

“her life finally. You know what I mean? And, and I think that's what it's just little like when”

you say, what does that look like? And she's one. She, okay, so, was she had, she's been with me to the Oscars. She's been with me to the Emmys twice. She's come out here. She's seen every house that I've owned out here in LA. She's traveled. She's been on on, on cruises. And she not only, she prepares for the next day. Not only does she look forward to the next day. She prepares for that. And she was like, what y'all gonna do for my birthday? She loves to celebrate. And she loves to bring people together.

And it's a have a good time. I see her living for her. So finally, you know, she gets, it's literally

about what she wants to do. Yeah. Yeah. And I know that's why she's still here. Yeah. It's like a second-hand. Yeah. And we don't want to have to wait till we're 100. No, we don't. To do that. Or no, we don't. We don't want to do it. Yeah, or 55. Right. But I say, I don't know how all you are. Right. You better start. Well, that's saying no. I love that. So now, let's think back to. So what you know now, you go back to the younger, your younger cells. Besides just saying,

you got to say no earlier, what do you tell in your younger self so that you can you can start this work earlier? I was not known about therapy younger. Okay. I didn't find that until late 40s fifth. Okay. Okay. I didn't. I was not known about therapy earlier. I mean, I knew, but not only kind of, I didn't know, but I couldn't afford it. I couldn't afford it. Yeah. Yeah. And what kind of strategies are you learning that we can help shuntay with or that have helped you? I want to say no.

I heard about that I thought was about you to Roger is that you you play a lot. Tell, tell, tell us

about you got to play room. I have a play. I always okay. So when I came up, my mom couldn't afford

a lot of this stuff. Remember the catalogs you get to take? Yeah, I would. We would go in, repage a circle. Exactly. And so I always. Bathroom reading for us. Yes. Yes. I could have why loved when we got those big catalogs. And I will go in there and I will circle. And I would always promise myself, I don't care how old you get, but you're going to be successful. And when you do, make

“sure you have your little girls from, that's what I used to call it. Okay. And in that room,”

was going to be all the things that my heart desired. You know, back then it was dolls and the things it in the toy book. But as I got older, it became the salon. And in the salon is where I play. I have doll head. I have prosthetic hands where I practice doing nails. And during the pandemic,

I'll teach myself how to cut and color hair. And that's where I would go. And anytime I'm in distress,

you will find me in my salon. Wow. And what you're doing is doing what you love doing for you ourselves. For myself, people think it's a little creepy because all the doll heads are looking but it's my happy place. It makes sense. It makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I would be remiss if I didn't ask both of you. When we don't know what Shantay's situation is,

“but how can we as men help you all with this process? Remember, I said at the convention,”

do something. Do you see this by a guy? Well, I'm easy. I have a point. Do something. Do okay.

Do any suggestions, maybe? Just a couple. Do something. We don't know what I mean.

Yeah, no. I mean what Shantay is guys are trying to help, but we don't know how to help. We can barely get ourselves to therapy. And we're trying to fuck our way through this by, I'm here for you, but I don't know what to do. Sometimes just saying death is bitterly. Sometimes just saying that, because I feel seeing. Okay. You're not just ignoring me. You're not just going on about your way thugging your way through things. You're going, you know what? I see your interest. I just don't

know how to help. Then that allows me to go this is how you can help. Okay. Open death. And you know what I also want, you know, if you're not going to therapy, then I want you to find the place

“where you're going to keep growing to that. Yes. And you can't grow in your own mind alone, right?”

So if you, if there are issues, you know, and you see me struggling, you know, you can't always

fix my struggle, but I would want the men in their lives to take a look at themselves, too, because if we're doing all this work is women figuring an out going to therapy, you know, finding our peace, you know, trying to heal our trauma, then you got to be doing the same thing, too, because it's not just me, it's both of us. It's all of us. So I would say to the men, you know, do the work, too. And find the way, find the way, do the work in the way that you can do it.

And if you can't go to therapy, because you're thugging it out, then talk to somebody. Talk to somebody. Talk to somebody. Talk to each other. That would be something if that helps. And then, you know, throw a load of laundry in, you know, make breakfast. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. Well, you know, I'm not okay. If it's not you, then it doesn't apply. It doesn't apply for the breakfast out there. He didn't say the Airbnb. He divorced the dirty

“uniform. I heard him say that. Thank you. Yes. Nice to be able to remember that. No, this is,”

this has been extraordinarily helpful for me as a man to hear you all be so vulnerable. And so authentic with this. So. Oh, and I can be vulnerable as well. Yes. Yeah. Be vulnerable. Don't thug your way through it. Yeah. Right. And I think we have to talk. We have to, you know, we have to rip the veil off of these conversations and talk about what we struggle with. Talk about the help that we're getting. And the help you need. The help you need. And we have to learn how to articulate

our pain. Yes. And not be afraid to say we're hurting. That this is hard. That I'm scared. That I'm tired. You know, and then, you know, we want the men in our lives to, you know, give us a safe place to land when we do that. Right. Yeah. Maybe there's nothing to fix, but maybe it's just listen. Don't make us feel like we're crazy. Right. You know? Right. Right. No, I get it. Yeah. So this has been some heavy stuff. I would like to know, how do you spend your leisure time? Like, what is

to rise your hands and do when she, you and your toy room? I'm in the toy room. When you're not in the toy room. No, I, if you watch anything or you read anything, what do you do? I enjoy. I just got a new puppy. Oh, well, I already have a dog, Buddha. And Buddha just seemed lonely because I can't

Buddha in Zen. And so right now, that's what occupies my time. And puppy is just four months. Oh. And Buddha is too. And so right now, they bring me so much joy. So that and, um, um, you know, family time. I love going to visit with fans. Just like I said, I just came back. I have lots of

cousins and, you know, that always, um, lifts my spirits and it gives me the motivation I need to

keep going. You know, my family, because they, I just love my family. I come from a family where as cousins, we always sleep on a pallet. Mm-hmm. We're about to blanket you before the blow-up mattress. Mm-hmm. And blankets on the floor. And so we're really close. So I'm saying that right

“now because that's what's brought me. This joy that I have. I'm carrying right now because I”

just came back. Yeah. From saying them so. And a little birdie tells me that you are a real housewife, fanited. Is that correct? And I like that. I do, I watch, I watch. I'm scripted. It's good.

I love unscripted. Because it makes you forget about your problems. Exactly. You're like,

that's part of the tunnel. It's like, it's just like, it's just like, it's not. What, what? That's crazy. You know, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's my little, I'm secret planter. We have, um, our production company, higher ground. Yes. A lot of people think that it's called presidential. And we're going to do documentaries. And we just came out with unscripted, later daters where we, it's like, and just, yeah, yeah. So we are, it's a show that, um,

couples, uh, find, finds love matches for aspirational people over 50 people who look like us. Yeah. You know, who are looking for love and love. You know, it's, um, got this great, um, dating coach, the young woman, Logan Yuri. And you just sort of go along that journey. We, we are, uh, work. I'm not trying to pump the show. But I'm just saying that people didn't expect us to be doing unscripted, right? But it's like, well, that's my taste, right? I mean, I, I love those

“kind of shows where it's just regular people. I think that maybe that's the sociologist in me that I love”

watching, regular, human connection, real interaction. Although my brother says that unscripted isn't real, you know, that real housewives ain't real, they're acting. And we don't even care. We don't care. It's good TV. The, the most intellectual women that I know, my sister, my wife, my daughter,

now you all watch the stuff. And I am shocked. Well, I'm always, but I always say, you know,

the NBA is like the real, you know, that's reality. But reality TV now, it's, but it's still drama. There's, there's a lot of drama. Yeah, this is real, too. These are real situations. I think people manufacture beef for you. No, no, no, no. It's produced. So you can have an actual beginning middle and end. It has to have some kind of structure. Otherwise, it's just chaos. So but at the end of the day, those are real issues. It feels like chaos. They feel like, well,

they're in chaos. It feels like there's chaos in friendships. There's chaos in life. They're,

“they're, they're, they're there's actually. And so it, what's your favorite franchise?”

My favorite. Oh, I'm kind of, you watch a little bit of all of it. So I love a hippie. Mamadee. Oh, shot. Yeah. I love it because I know a Mamadee and everybody knows a Mamadee. They should do. Right. If you don't have one in your family, you got them. Then you land. You land. You land. You land. You just not coming now. Mamadee. I have a Mamadee in my family. I don't say who would.

But I'm like that. I tell my husband. I was like, you watch golf. Right. I watch unscripted. Yeah. And it brings me, I don't know. It just settles me down. You get to talk. And I get the, the blackness in us, the collar response. Like, because we were, I don't want to say, I would have, I would have, I would have. If that was me, you know, like, let's talk and see. Okay. I brought this on myself here. I brought this on myself here. I brought this on myself here.

well, well, before we, before we end up, and this has been just tremendous. And I want to thank you.

“But before we end up, I'd like to give Shantay just, I want to recap the strategies. Because we,”

we, we hit on some good stuff. Yeah. The saying no. And the find some therapy somewhere. And your points, your mini points, but, um, be okay with disappointing people, you know, practice that disappointment and do the work of feeling good about yourself. And that, that was the one that really stood out to me is you're not just going to automatically feel help, uh, happy once you say no. You've got to keep working, but, you know, and they're

will, as I've discovered, there will be backlash. Yeah. And to your know, you know, but, but, like you said, and the guilt that comes with because you've been saying, yes, want to do the right thing, that's the right thing. But both of you all said, but after you learn to say, no, you realize the world keeps you. Yeah. Absolutely. So, so once you feel, start to feel

comfortable saying no, things are going to re, uh, we configure. And then finally, and this is just

on my, my mental list of the things that I, I thought were really good outside of getting your men to go ahead and getting therapy was the, um, I like your, the re, rejiggering your neurons in your brain. You got to practice different messages to yourself. Yeah. Because we have been raised with a different set of messages, and that gets imprinted in you in some real ways, just like trauma and pain, all of that is in our systems, right? And it becomes a loop, a negative loop

“that we can't get out of. And I think for me, I'm trying to recognize that what keeps me from”

my own piece sometimes is me. Yeah. Most of us, most of us, it's, it's me practicing, uh, old messages. And so knowing that I have to affirmatively work at telling myself different things is, it's a real practice. Yes. At 61 years old to reshape the way that I operate in the world has to be mindful intentional, and, and, and, and, and, and done frequently. Yeah. It takes work. It just doesn't go. Oh, I did it today. That's right. That's right. That's right. No. Some things are easier than others.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Terage, thank you. Thank you. So much you are amazing. I love you. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. You are doing it. Um, and just know you got two fans, uh, a whole Airbnb full of fans, of folks who are rooting for you every single step of the way. There are certain things in life you keep meaning to get around to. And for me, health screenings

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