Marriage Expert: Three Questions That Replace Years of Miscommunication & a New Way to Think About Resentment That Could Save Your Marriage

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Details are in the show notes, so hit subscribe, start listening, and thanks for being in it with us. If you've ever looked at your husband and felt something closer to resentment, then romance don't panic. That is not a sign your marriage is broken. And that's just one of the things we learned on this episode. We also learned that there are specific patterns that keep couples stuck.

And that there are three questions that can replace years of miscommunication in your marriage. All of that and more when we get in it with Dr. Tracy today. This is the podcast for women in their 30s and 40s who are building, raising, and evolving all at the same time. This isn't a highlight reel, or hustle culture, or toxic optimism. And it's definitely not a quick fix.

It's honest conversations about your health, relationships, and ambition. And what it actually takes to live this chapter of your life well. If you're a woman who is building something, raising someone, or searching for something you can't quite name yet, and trying to take care of yourself in the middle of it all, you are in it. This podcast is for you.

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And if this is your first time, welcome.

My name's Jordan Harper. I have been married for almost 14 years as year, which isn't sane. I played hard to get for a year. Okay, did not respond, no date for a year, highly recommend. We now have four kids. We're happily married, but we still have a lot to learn. I'm actually buckler. I have also been with my husband for 14 years. We've been married for five of those, and I definitely made the first move.

I'll just own that. I didn't play hard to get. I knew the second I saw that man that had to be my husband. And now we have one baby boy together. He's two years old, and we also have a lot to learn. I've learned a lot over the past 14 years, but I am so excited for this episode, because I actually just started therapy and we're talking to a couple of therapists.

Her name is Dr. Tracy. She has so much wisdom, and also I feel like she really helped us kind of break these down into some tangible things that we can actually do in our relationships to like redirect some of the patterns and thought loops that we get in with our partners. And it's funny because just this morning, I noticed I was in one and I did one of Dr. Tracy's. Oh, you did. Like Paul's? Yes. I did. Can you share as a private?

No, I will share, because I think this is really common to happen. So we're getting Brody ready for school this morning. Bo's so helpful in the morning, and we figured out our little routine, you know, what I'm doing, what he's doing. But we both know what needs to be done to get out the door. And I've been out of town this week, and so Bo's been taking Brody to school in the morning.

And so I know he knows like the snack needs to be packed. The juice has to go in. The diapers have to go in. So I come into the kitchen this morning and I know you're back all bets are off.

“But I'm back all bets are off. Like normally, that's what I do.”

And he's doing a lot too. I want to give him credit because he really is. And like I get ready and he's full Brody duty while I'm doing that. So we trade, but this morning all bets are off, you know, it's back on me, but things were a little bit like out of norm. Because my makeup acts still in the car from yesterday, you know, all that kind of stuff. Anyways, there was his juice cup and his snack stuff sitting out on the counter.

And I was like, man, it would have been so helpful if he would have just like gone ahead and done that. Why are you waiting on me to do that? You know it needs to be done. Like, this is what I'm thinking in my head. I'm like, can he just do it? And so I'm not saying anything because I'm practicing the Dr. Tracy pause. Like notice the pattern, take a pause, take a beat, notice the pattern.

What is this saying about me? So I start thinking like, okay, what is this saying about me? Like, why is that starting to trigger me? And it's because I'm not feeling supported. And I'm feeling like it's just, oh, she's back. It's on her. She's got it. Whereas I want to feel like you got it, too. And I do feel like he hasn't, too. Yeah, but you started to tell yourself that story.

I started to tell myself that story. So I'm taking this pause. And I was glad I did because then I'm looking for my makeup. And I'm like, where is it? And I realized, Beau had gone all my bags out of the car. He had put them all up where they go. He had taken the car seat out of his truck, but it back in my car.

He already spun it around. So it was perfectly ready. The shoes. We always do ready shoes in the car seat,

which is a hack because, you know, they never want to put the shoes on inside. So once they're strapped in, that's when I put a shoes on. And so he had done some things to like help the morning go. Yeah, I feel like you felt really. Yeah, yeah. This is a good example. Yeah, I was like, oh, quickly switched into gratitude.

He does have my back. You know, and it's not in the way that maybe I noticed at first.

“And it was there. And I think that's where it's so important to be always looking out for our partners.”

Like, what are they doing? Where are they showing up? What are they bringing to the table? And that's what Dr. Tracy really helped kind of like that reframe. Honestly, it's just taking the Paul's. Yeah, it's so important. Well, yeah. And then she gives it a handful. I would say a very simple action will take away is that you can implement in your relationship.

I would say you can implement it probably even with like friends and kids. Yes. She does talk a lot about marriage, of course, but it's very helpful. And I think it's very simple.

So good news, ladies. We're going to get a lot out of this episode. It's going to save our marriages.

“We're going to be very in love with our partners. Yeah. And it's going to be great.”

So without further ado, let's get into it with Dr. Tracy. I am so excited to talk with you today and have you on this podcast because we are in the thick of it, careers, identity shifts, moms, wives, all the things that you talk about on your Instagram and in your books. And we have a lot of questions. I actually just started therapy for the very first time this week. I'm on session two. So I'm really new to it. It's already been so life-giving.

I love personal development. So I'm always like reading and listening to things in any area of life that I'm struggling in,

but having a professional really ask you the hard questions and make you take pause and sit with it. And what does that mean? Has been already so transformative. And so I'm so excited to hear about how you work with couples and like what you have learned from these couples.

“Because even the title of your book, I didn't sign up for this, is like a statement that I think is relatable to a lot of women.”

Even if you're deeply in love with your husband, like we can relate. And so I want to know for you, how did you even come to that title of the book? Is that something you kept hearing women say? Tell us about that.

And first, let me just pause to say thank you so much for inviting me to sit with both of you and for bringing this conversation forward.

Because for so many of us, we are talking more about the struggles of parenthood and our own struggles with mental health. And I still find that for so many of us, we don't talk about those really hard moments where we look at our partner and think, "Is it just me? Why am I feeling so much hatred and anger and resentment towards my partner?" So the title of my book really came from repeatedly sitting across from couples specifically with young kids. And over and over again, they would say, "This isn't what I signed up for. I didn't sign up for this relationship.

I thought this would be different." And what really struck home for me, which is what I've put in the book, is I myself as a couple of therapists after working with people for so long in the shower crying after the birth of my second child. Say it. So I didn't sign up for this. And like having this explosive moment, and I can even remember after my first, I would be at the park and looking around at the parents and they would be talking about feeding schedules and nap times and introducing solids. And I would be standing there thinking, "Does anybody else hate their husband?"

And so the other layer of shame that comes in with this, of course, is that I am a couple's therapist. I am a psychologist. I researched couples. I understand attachment theory. I sit across from a couple and objectively, I am in their staff and I'm supporting them to build this healthy relationship. And I would come home and feel so resentful in my own marriage. And so that's really where the book of the title came from is, "How do we then bring to light these hard conversations?" So this is so interesting, and we both have young kids. So I have four young kids, and Ashley has one, and she's just on the beginning of that journey.

So I feel like this resentment, this is where I feel like women are so relatable, and I also feel like what happens is, and you're going to speak to this better than me, because I'm out there. But that resentment, when my view turns into bitterness, and that's what really robs your life.

“And that like robs your relationship. So how do you, so where do you go from here? Where do you start?”

How long do we have? I love right away, Jordan, what you've said is when we feel this emotion, we externalize it, because naturally we want to ease the discomfort. And when we put something on to our partners, we then tell ourselves the story, it's because of them. It's the things they're doing, and if they changed, if they were different.

And this is for anyone listening, if you're not along thinking, yes, this is exactly what I'm thinking and feeling, that's normal. It is the first part of acknowledging this process.

And I'm going to challenge people to go into themselves, because when we externalize, we lose our sense of agency. Are you saying that we can be externalized, we lose our agency, and the only person we can control ourselves. We got to regain it. Yeah, and that really is an uncomfortable process that we have to sit in, because I know what this looks like. It looks like I have repeatedly gone to my husband and said, you didn't finish all the dishes. I've repeatedly gone and said, bedtime looks like this, and you come in and rattle them all up, and I've just calmed them all down.

And then if I'm more exhausted, and my children now are eight and ten, and just early on, I had this hope that we would just master this stuff quickly. And what I'm recognizing is that couples have repeated problems. They're called perpetual problems. You don't solve them.

So what do we do with resentment? The first thing is to understand that it's signaling, you have something inside of you that needs to be addressed.

“And a lot of people come to me saying, I think we're doomed. I feel resentful towards my husband. That doesn't mean you're doomed.”

If you do nothing with the feeling and you go into content, which is the hostile humor and looking at your partner with disgust, then you'll stay stuck. But resentment says, hey, you know what? There's something deeper in here. First, I think we need to label that there's grief. The feeling that you don't feel the way you want it to feel in your relationship. You're grieving that you've asked for something repeatedly, and it hasn't happened. And that's hard. Maybe you haven't asked the right way.

A hundred percent.

And that's really hard to sit in, because and I'll use myself as an example. I know so many of my clients have worked through this as well.

It's the, I go to my husband and I'm angry and frustrated. And I say, you're not following our bedtime agreement. You're not doing it my way. And that just triggers his defensiveness. The issue is no longer about bedtime. The issue is about the negative cycle we're stuck in. And that negative cycle is filled with resentment, anger, frustration, and we don't communicate our needs. But if I go to my partner and say, I'm struggling with how we're managing bedtime, because I want us to feel like we're the same team.

And I want us to have time afterwards so we can connect. And when we agree to this, it helps me to feel like I'm important.

And then we can figure out what that actually looks like. That is a completely different conversation.

“And I think the grief is something that I didn't even know to prepare for.”

And it was a little bit of a fear I think before having a child and being like, what is going to happen to our relationship. We had been together for I think 10 years before we had a baby together and a lot of that was a stating and you know, college and those things. But I was aware that having a child impact relationship obviously, but I don't think there was anything anyone could have told me to know what it feels like to navigate through that together as a couple. And it's so important. Get to the other side of it.

Linked arms on the same team versus me coming at you, you coming at me now. We're trying to like attack this problem separately versus together. But there is a little bit of like a grief of it used to be so easy. We didn't have to think about and be so intentional about spending time together because we didn't have any other responsibilities on the weekends. It's him and I and so we're together. We're spending time together. Then you have other responsibilities at it on to your plate and there's kind of like a sadness for that. I think especially for women who are not that men like don't have feelings.

“But you know, we feel in our feels and it's I think what you're saying about spending time together like what you were noticing there is now like I don't feel important to you because you're not carving out this time to spend with me.”

And how can women to men because we see things so differently sometimes like how can we get them to understand that in a way that they don't feel defensive. Because I think men have a lot of emotional struggles that women don't often know about that I'm learning about it as we have children, you know, the not feeling adequate not feeling like they just want to problem solve. We don't want to hear the problems. How can men and women get on the same team to solve these problems and how can we better communicate.

Take an agency taking control of what we can control. How do we do that? Ashley, I want to name what you've just identified there and I see this clinically with couples that I've worked with for almost 20 years. It's that women come into the dynamic most times looking to know that they matter, looking to know that they're important to their partner. They're looking for connection. That's part of our socialization. It's part of how we're raised as girls. It's also socially emotionally or more advanced than boys when we look at 18 months old. That's one piece.

And then the other piece here is most men are looking for adequacy and worthiness. And they want to know that they feel that they're good enough for you. And so they come into the equation, not looking to connect, but looking to feed that sense of self, looking to feel adequate. And so, of course, they problem solve, of course they fix and mixed in also to a socialization. Boys were taught, don't cry over spilled milk, pull up your socks, brush it off, get back out there on the team, don't feel those feelings get on the team.

And now you bring together two completely different people and it is. It feels like we're speaking different languages. And we also need to acknowledge that women are the ones who are absorbing all of this self-help information right now. They're the ones buying the self-help book. They're one listing to the podcast, sharing the parenting posts and all of the things. And so we're starting to see this gap between what are women doing and what are men doing. So one of the questions I ask couples in my therapy room is if your partner were giving you what that need is.

So it's really vague. I mean, I get it, but if you go to your partner and say, I need reassurance. What does that actually mean? So you would say something like, I need reassurance. And what that would sound like is, hey babe, we're in this together. Or if I'm looking for validation and that's the emotional connection that I'm saying, I need you to tell me that it makes sense to feel this way.

Of course you feel sad. And I like to tell a story about my husband in the first time that I said to like the really anchored into this skill from him.

And I had said to him, I'm like, I just need you to validate me and he's like, okay, well, I don't know what validation is like, what does that mean? And I was feeling sad about something and I said, I just need you to say, I see that you're sad. And he could see his kind of perplexed face and he's like, okay, I see your sad. And I was like, yes, see right there. Yes, I feel validated. That's all I need from you. And I think for us, it really is about slowing it down and helping them to see who we are, what we need, what that want is.

“On the other hand, too, I think it's important for both partners to enter into these conversations with one of the most foundational skills that I teach people, which is curiosity.”

Connection comes from curiosity, not from plum solving, not from fixing, not from assuming things about your partner, but instead by saying, I want to know more about this for you. The thing that I did recently, when my husband, I was like similar to what you're saying, I said, so I am a CEO of a skincare company that I started mom before. I actually thought I'm a really, really good problem solver, but I told him, I was like, I want you to treat me like, I know nothing. I want you to treat me like a baby.

I don't have skills to figure out at home and he does take care of us for sure, and he has a great dad, but I do think you have to truly verbalize. I know I can do all this stuff and I know I can tetris our life together and like, logistically do all these things, but I want you to treat me like I can't. There's a tenderness. Yes, a tender. Yes, that's what it is. I just want you to be so tender with me and like, because I feel like I have me to be tough all the time and problem solving, like that's fine. I'm okay with that, but I think that was somebody who's like, oh, okay, yeah, I do that, but that was the first time I probably ever said that.

And we've been married for 13 years, but it took me until then to kind of put those points together. And that's really important, Jordan, and I think you're doing two things. One is I have to slow down and become aware of what's actually inside of me. And when you're running the business, when you've got the four kids, and it's hard to slow down. It's hard to peel that back and say, what is this really about for me? What do I need in connection with my partner?

“And then the other piece that I spend a lot of time doing in therapy sessions with couples is normalizing that yes, you have to communicate what you need.”

Your partner does not just know. I think we hope that they would know. I even remember being a small school girl one time and a friend saying, if you don't know what you did, then you're stupid or something, right? Like those kind of messages growing up, you should just know what people need.

And the truth is, we can't mind read. And so we have to get really comfortable sharing that need with our partners.

And one of my books I outline eight core needs, because I think a lot of times we think needs are more wants and desires. I'm going to say to my partner, I need the kids to go to bed at 8 p.m. That's not a need. That's a desire. It's a wish. Underneath that, I have to really think what's the need. And core needs sound like belonging, love and connection, intimacy, power, freedom, control, not control in a bad way, but in an agency sense of way. Playfulness, that's a core need.

And so when I go underneath the bedtime issue for me, it's about connection. I want to be off duty from the kids, so I get connection with my partner. That's the need. Knowing those is so helpful, because it kind of takes you out of the accusatory state of mind. And then you can think through that list. And then it helps you, I feel like it's going to help us come at these conversations from a softer place in more of a place of like,

I want to spend time with you when the baby is down, because I love you.

To hear that versus you never stick to my bedtime routine.

And I've told you 17 times that he goes to bed at 7.30. That is going to make him feel defensive and inadequate.

“And I think it is important both for men and women.”

But we're holding each other's heart and soul in our hands. So let's care for that. And be really mindful of what it is that they're experiencing and the lens that they're seeing the world through and everything you share in the beginning. Like the social expectations or any kind of like narrative that's been pushed on us as men and women. And then just what our different needs are, then be filled out of a quick, us to feel connection.

I think it's really important to know that. One of the things that you also talk about that I want to really get into the weeds of is the mental and. And the reason I think that this is such an important conversation is because I think it extends for years and years and years.

And something Jordan was just sharing about in their dynamic this kind of like her wanting to be more in her feminine energy and like let the masculine.

Lead where he can at the same time and I say this in the most empowering way and out of respect for men. But like women can just do some things that only we can do. I feel as if like the things that we can handle and think about and multitask and take on at once is really empowering. How do we navigate that together in a way where we feel support from our spouse and also in a way that like keeps them in their masculine keeps us in our feminine because. Having to run the household is kind of more of this like masculine feeling sometimes and so then I really relate to what Jordan was saying about.

I just want to like let you lead but we feel like we have to lead because what time are the appointments and where the shoes you get it actually everything you just said was so well said. I you're here for now. Great, this is my next career. Okay, sorry, Dr. Jason, jump in. Because that would be great.

That took me such a long time to really be able to share it with the world.

So one of my posts on my Instagram was this like really delicate balance of how do we label what he does and what I do.

“How do I not blame either one of us, but then also how do I want to show up different?”

I think there's this belief here that we are better when we're multitasking and we then carry so many things. We've got the baby on our hip, we're stirring the chili where then making the doctors appointment with the phone and so we're doing 10 things at once. And research actually shows there's a very little difference between men and women in terms of their cognitive abilities when they're multitasking. They're a little different yet women are conditioned and we continue to practice multitasking and that way.

The the piece that I wanted convey in that post shocks me. Yeah, right. Yeah, but but why do I constantly feel overwhelmed? Yes, there's a reality that I'm thinking about the kids's next doctor's appointments. What ingredient are we missing to make the muffins this week?

What shoe size do I need for the rain boots that we're going to need in a few weeks? I'm holding all those things in mind and then I'm changing over the laundry and I'm making the kids lunch the same time and I'm flipping eggs. Those are choices that we make. And so there's on one hand this encouragement for moms listening try to single task try to just be so present in what you're doing so that your nervous system isn't thinking it's fighting a bear. I think that's what it is.

It's like we have this heavy mental load. We continue to feed into all of it. Our nervous system gets overwhelmed because we're in constant fight or flight. And then our partners come close to us because they want to be close and connected. And you're like, I'm all touched out.

Don't touch me, right? It's just such a vicious cycle. So one. Let's own this piece where we can sink into single tasking. How do I be present in just the thing that I'm doing?

“But then you need to start putting in systems in your relationship and you need to identify what this actually is.”

I always say to couples, you're going to trigger defensiveness.

If you go to your partner saying, I am carrying so much and you see nothing that I do because they'll meet you with the same thing. I carry things too and you don't see what I'm doing. So the conversation then becomes the issue of running the visible and visible labor in the household. We need to put that in front of us and then we sit together. I love when couples sit shoulder to shoulder at the dinner table, not in bed, don't do it in bed.

But at the dinner table and you put a piece of paper in front of you, this is where we're solving things. This is where we're saying, what is what's the brain dump? What are things that we're running right now? What's feeling too heavy? What are things that maybe we want to just offload?

So, you know, Christmas cards. I love sending out Christmas cards. I love planning the family photo. I love sending special notes to people. And then in the seasons of writing books, releasing them, promoting et cetera, I just couldn't do it. And it wasn't that important to my husband. So instead of me getting resentful that he's not doing all the things to put the Christmas cards out,

that year we said, hey, no cards. We're just going to take it off the table. I know Evrodsky uses the example of plants when she talks about fair play. If you are in the season where you can't care for plants right now, maybe you take the plants out of the home. So it's not one more thing when you're to do this.

“So what are the things we can get rid of as a couple?”

Is this kind of where you start couples? Oh, yeah. Okay. So this is where we're going to start. We're shoulder to shoulder. We're sitting down. Yep. Can't wait to take this home to boat tonight.

Yeah. You've got it at home tonight, plant. You can also get the fair play deck. And that has I think it's 100 cards in there. And it goes through all of these various tasks that maybe you're not even realizing that you're holding.

Is this why women get so frustrated and it just triggers the rage inside of you when they say,

"Just tell me what to do and I'll do it." Why does this send us into oblivion? Like, what is happening inside? We may ask this question. You are being asked to step into the manager mother role. And you don't want to be the mother.

You don't want to be a mother in the kitchen and then ask to go be the goddess in the bedroom. How do you do both? You can't. But when you feel like a team and when he comes to you and says, "I was thinking about groceries this week and I know that our little one has been rejecting the like go-to staple food we've been giving. And so I was thinking and I did a bit of research.

And so I'm going to get this and put this on our list. When your husband comes to you and says that, "Yeah, you're like a bedroom. I made it." Because what he's doing and when I bring this to attachment language, I see you, you matter to me. You're important to me.

And we are in this together. And that right there, that's so good. So step one is the brand up. And you're about to say what's next up to.

“Step two, you have to find a system to divide it.”

And that's going to work different for everybody. But that system has to have this agreement between two people. If you're taking on something, I'm not going to be the one doing all of the front loading of this work. You're going to do it from start to finish.

That works for some couples. Other couples it doesn't. Some couples really like this idea of completely dividing a task. Others prefer to be more flexible. It has to work for your style and for your relationship. So what I also encourage people to do is you need to have some kind of weekly check-in.

This is not a, we talk about this once and never revisit it.

It's a, anything about it. As a team, you meet weekly. How is productivity? How are sales? What do we need to do in terms of females? Like, how do we look at all of this?

You have to do that at home with your partner, which is also inviting each other to sit in hard conversations to say, "I'm overwhelmed. How can we move forward together this week?" Or, Jordan, if you're really needing that tender caring, what is it that you have coming up this week?

That's going to be stressful. That your husband then is aware of it and can support you on those days. It's all of that, right? That's the teamwork of this.

“What do you think is the best way to have these meetings?”

So I've seen some stuff about just going on a walk together, or do you think that these are actually, I mean, I love writing to that sound, but do you think that there's a good way to, I mean, women are going to want to talk more than that, not the honest. So it's like, is there a good way to set this meeting up for success? The king of the range of people, so you might have a partner

who shuts down immediately when you're sitting face-to-face. So that could feel threatening. So in that moment, then decide to go for a walk. And the walk has the agenda, and the agenda of the walk is we're going to talk about all of the tasks that need to be done this week in the house.

It could be sitting at the table, and maybe you identify the three things. Or maybe you're not even at that spot yet, and you're at the spot where you're building safety and trust between you two. If you've been feeling so disconnected, you want to start having five-minute check-ins at the end of every day, and share one thing you're grateful for about each other, and sharing something stressful

that's happening the next day, right? So you're breaking it into what's going to work best for you. We found in our marriage, we had to start setting a boundary at a certain time. So if it's like eight or nine p.m. on, I said, "Please don't bring up anything stressful or any decision that needs to be made."

Because now I'm like going, "I'm trying to wind down. I'm trying to calm the nervous system down." And when he's like, "Oh, we need to figure something out." This is probably Jordan Nicole. But that has been, you know, no therapist, but that's really helpful for us

is having, I just noticed when I kind of have this like always on nervous system.

And so I have to work to calm her down and let her know she's not being traced by a bear and we can go to sleep and everything's fine. So I can't be having problems arise in my bed. I tell him like, "Once we're in bed, do you have no serious talk?" I love it.

And it's the focus on intimacy. Put bodies together, you can hug, cuddle, you can make eye contact. That's the good stuff that you want to be doing in bed.

“And you know, it's funny that the next thing I think of is,”

I can imagine for partners who are more avoidant. They wait all day and they wait and they wait and then it's eight p.m. and they haven't brought up the hard thing and then it's nine p.m. and they're like, "Ooh, I better bring it up." And then for the other person, if their nervous system can't go through that,

that's what then creates conflict. That makes a lot of sense. I want to talk about pattern, catching the pattern. So I know, like, I think we all get in these loops, right?

And what do we do to like catch these patterns?

And how can we, before they get too far? That? How do we know we're in a pattern? And that's a bad one. And how do we get a good one?

So you are meant to be in patterns. Let me just normalize that. We all have a pattern. And the goal is not to completely get rid of the pattern. The goal is to get out of it and repair faster.

“So remember that all relationships are made up of this cycle.”

Connection, disconnection, repair, connection, disconnection, repair. And when we get stuck in patterns and that disconnection, it actually works towards having greater relationships when we go through the repair. You get to know more about each other and I say the couples. Remember that conflict helps you to identify what your needs are.

When you can slow it down, you get to learn more about each other. So conflict isn't bad. Okay, hold on. Conflict helps to identify what your needs are. So conflict is good as long as you repair.

Yes. Okay, I feel like that's good for relationships in general. Yeah. Friendships, working relationships. Absolutely.

What all of it? To say, connect, disconnect, repair. I also think that breaks the lie that people think that you just live in the state of connection. And we think about how like, no, we don't. We have to, otherwise there's no growth there.

That's the fantasy.

“That's what people think they've signed up for when really that's a lie.”

And really that intimacy is from the reconnection in the repair. In the safety that you get from that. Yes, it's why we're getting it. I make it progress.

I love the idea that you are no longer with the same person that you first met.

And that the real work in our relationship is the willingness to meet each other over and over again. You're not supposed to be the same person. And that's really challenging because you then have to get curious about who you are and also who the other person is. And so when it comes to even our cycles, we then need to acknowledge what are our own hot buttons, what triggers us. My husband has this eyebrow thing that he does, he's not even aware of it.

And that sends me. I'll say to him, well, what is it? What's the eyebrow thing? And that right there for us is like an entry point into our cycle. Because the story I tell myself and it's our stories, our assumptions and our perceptions that get us stuck.

The story I tell myself is, you don't care about me. You don't care what I have to say. Just from an eyebrow race. And for couples, we need to acknowledge that we're hardwired to connect. We have mirror neurons that mirror back to each other with other person is experiencing.

And I have a hairpin trigger now of the moment he disconnects from me. If he slightly turns his body from me. Because the moment that he matters to me is the very moment that he can hurt me. And we don't like to be hurt. So then it's like, no, put on your armor.

“So when you notice that, how do you, in that moment, what is the best thing that we can do?”

If we're starting to feel, because I think in those situations, I would start to feel kind of that fear rising, the frustration rising, which can probably trigger a negative cycle. So what do we do in that moment when we start to feel them pull away? Uh-huh. So we need to check in with ourselves and with them. And that's a hard process, because we often act automatically.

So the automatic reaction and actually you've already named it. Fear is the deeper stuff, but then I would get frustrated and maybe you snap.

And maybe you would say something harsh or critical.

So then you want to pull back a little bit and just the best thing that you can do. And the sounds like such a therapist thing to say is to take a pause. Just take a bit. Actually, it's so much harder said than done. Uh-huh.

It is so hard. And it's the willingness to say to your partner. Hmm, something is coming up inside of me. I'm not going to focus on him. I'm going to focus on me. One of the other things that my husband and I have loved doing.

I teach my couples as well is if we're feeling reactive to something, we'll say, tell me more about that. So my husband, he allows me to share that he is my defensive expert. He's on my Instagram. He's all over my podcast. He's like my everyday guy. He's not a therapist.

We met when I started my PhD and he is my expert defensive person. And he gets so defensive. And it's just, I'll express something to him. And he's like, well, I was just. Well, there it is again. We're, you know, there's defensiveness.

And so what he's really learned to do and also what I've learned to do that has also helped me is to say, hey, can you tell me more about that? Just gives me a beat. Because one, I'm recognizing I'm having something happening inside of me. Two, I then express curiosity to my partner.

I'm probably going to disconfirm whatever story I'm telling myself. Another pattern that I had a question about is like, this is a little bit vulnerable to it. But I'm sure it's relatable.

Sometimes we get in these patterns of being very critical of our partner.

And I have found my way out of that. And I can share more if we want to talk through that. But I think sometimes when you notice something and usually it starts with something really simple like what we were just talking about. They have a slight eyebrow raise.

You fill the fear. You fill the frustration. And it's a million of those micro moments. I think that's a tough place to get out of sometimes. Because it's like leaky faucet syndrome.

Like when you hear the faucet leaking, now you only hear the faucet leaking.

“And you have to bring yourself back to remembering like all the good in your partner.”

And really focusing on the good in your partner. And not externalizing your inside needs and your inner needs. But I think that it's tough and probably a little bit deeper than the pause. So can you help us through that? What would you say to someone who's stuck in a cycle of more of the negative, like I said?

I'm the more critical partner in our cycle.

And I can completely relate to that. That I can notice if I'm feeling disconnected, I can notice the socks and the floor and then feel angry. And then I say one thing and then I can spiral into 10 more. And I'm almost loyering up because I want you to believe that I feel this certain way.

And it just keeps us stuck. So there's a few things that you can do. One, I think is the most powerful, which is when you notice anger, irritation. Maybe it feels like attention in your jaw or your shoulders are up or you're just about to say the thing. Take a slow deep breath and ask yourself, what's this actually about for me?

You might not know it in the moment. Maybe you get out your phone and make a note section right now. I'm feeling this. So we're not acting on it right away. We're not reactive.

We're slowing it down and getting curious on what our experiences. The other piece here is don't shame your experience. Don't get hard on yourself and be like, oh, Tracy, here you are.

Criticizing again, like you always do this.

No hang on. There's a reason you've learned to do that. It was likely really helpful in some place in your life or you watched parents do it that way. So that's one thing.

“I think the other thing that can be more active for some of us who like to be in the front of our brains is to recognize that there's something called the negative sentiment override.”

That shows up in your relationship. You are going to naturally find the things that are not happening. The socks on the floor, the dish is not done. The shoes and the foyer, because your brain is made to scan for threat. And so in your relationship, if you're not feeling connected and close and safe, emotionally suathed in that way, not about physical safety.

But then you're going to scan for threat. Instead, you have to practice, right? Is the how do we create muscle memory, this new neural connection in our brains to say what's the positive sentiment override? So recognizing that things your partner is doing, saying inside yourself, I'm grateful. I'm doing this with my partner.

Or I heard our little one laughing this morning with my husband and that's something that I'm going to hang out with you in this moment. And that's the shift. Yes, actually, you know what? That's the funny. You actually do this. So she has this note section in her phone. I'm all like a lot of things that she loves that her husband. And I think it's like, that was really good. And I feel like I do that.

There's no one else I want to be married to. You know, you have these different phrases that I just kind of resort to. This is the person I want to be with. This is the who else. You know, this is the best person.

This is the person I chose and I'm proud that I've chosen. Like kind of remembering some of those key kind of like phrases in the gratefulness. I think it's so huge. That even with the motherhood with everything, you can just revert to gratefulness. A lot of other stuff kind of falls to the wayside.

So true. It'll really take you into a deep state of love. If you start to notice and just the art of noticing even those little things like your child laughing with your husband. That's so relatable right now because those are things that I'm catching to just in the background.

“But I think it's you have to kind of like store that in your heart and really take notice of it and not just let the good just pass you by all the time.”

And that's why I have this note. Because I realize hold on. I'm like focusing in on the negatives and we're human. No one is perfect. I'm not either.

And he's choosing to love me fully. So like let me be that same, you know, spouse in return. So that's why I originally started and it really did help me get out of that thinking because it just shifted my attention. And there's more good. And my husband's amazing. He's best.

But I think that it's not something that just happens naturally. I think we're kind of wired like you said. We're scanning for the threat. But it's actually more natural to maybe notice where they're falling short versus what they are bringing to the table. So I just found that writing it down and looking at it and I just keep it running list, you know, every day.

A little something goes in. There's research in here to support this so that when people are going through a stressful situation. Researchers have asked them to tap into gratitude.

I'm grateful I have my partner and then what they notice is that stress response actually lowers.

So they end up down regulating their nervous system. So there's reasons why we want to do this. It actually is a calming and soothing part for our bodies. I love that. Speaking, you were talking about how men want to feel adequate.

And if we have the agency, you know, we have the agency to control ourselves. But how can we express what are some ways that we can show and make them feel that level of like adequacy? And I know everyone has like different love languages, but in any way that you would recommend. For anyone listing, I would say ask your partner tonight. Ask them how can I show you that I think you're enough that you are adequate.

I would be super curious for people to do that and just let that question sit and maybe they don't have an answer right away.

But then you're planting a seed. I always say that if you ask questions and your partner doesn't know that you've planted a seed there.

How can you help them acknowledge the things they do? Say it out loud, send them a text, meet them in what they're doing. So if maybe your partner is someone who does things around the house, maybe you do it with them. Or maybe you say, hey, let me do this one this time, which I know can feed into the mental load conversation. So find what works in your relationship.

But just the showing up to them in acknowledgement, I think, is something so easy that we can all do and make it a practice.

“Yeah, I've heard, and I've never read it. I think I don't want to get me read, but the book, I just remember the title.”

But it's like, women want love and men want respect. Do you agree with that? Like that's, and it's kind of what you said earlier, like, how they feel value, I guess? How they feel wanted? Yeah, it is, and it's about helping each other.

Yeah, and helping each other understand. And so, you know, if your partner is someone who questions whether they're adequate and struggles to feel worthy, how do you fill up their cup? How do you tell them, thank you for doing this with me. I don't want to be with anybody else.

I'm so glad we get to do this together. Like, you knowing I get to come home to you means everything to me. And I think when we have young kids, what we tend to do is we give all of that good stuff to our kids. We're saying to our kids how much we appreciate them. But we love about them. We set boundaries and acknowledge and validate feelings.

And then we turn to our partner and we don't give them any of that. We just say, what? You're not doing that time at APM tonight. Like, out, right? So it is that tenderness, respect, and love together.

“I think both partners need love and respect.”

But I do believe that women come to this table needing more connection and closeness in the emotional sense than men. Having my son, Brody, it's made me so much more empathetic towards both because he looks a lot like my husband sometimes to me. And when he does, I just feel so much compassion towards him because it's like I'm seeing the little boy. You know, that lives inside of all of us. Like, it's right there in front of my face.

And it's made me so much more empathetic towards him because I feel like we have a lot of grace for ourselves sometimes with like, Well, I'm feeling this we're so aware of our own feelings and how we got there and the mindset behind it. But they also are experiencing their own private inner world too. And so I think just having compassion towards that makes you a little less on the defense. One other pattern I wanted to talk about before you wrap is the roommate and teammate or partnership.

You talk about this and I think it is so relatable for a lot of couples. Can you share with us if you are in more of like a roommate feeling type of dynamic? What you can do to come out of that?

Sit on the couch first and acknowledge the sense of we in that season.

I think that is the first thing that you can do because a lot of times people will say to me, "We're so exhausted we can't do anything else right now." And I want to validate that and hear that. So sit in the couch and say, "I know we are in this together. I know we feel this distance right now and I know we're going to come out of it."

There's something so connecting about that and the reassurance that you're giving to each other just to be on the same page. But then I think we also need to acknowledge that we all have five minutes in a day and connection with your partner can happen in just five minutes. Once in the morning and then once in the evening. So every morning before reaching for your phones, going to the outside world, can you do something that brings you together?

I remember working with one client and she had said that she takes all this intentional effort to go around the house and say, "Goodbye to her kids." And when I said, "And what do you do with your husband?" And she had said, "Oh, I just got across the room by and go."

“And that's what that is just like representation of how we lose that ritual.”

So greet your partner, say goodbye to them, linger for just 30 seconds, whether it's a longer hug, more than just a pack, and remember the why we do this. It's one thing to say to our kids, find a person that you trust in.

So slowing that down.

And then at night, I love when couples have a chance to come together and you can have two or three standard questions.

“One is, I had mentioned this earlier, what is something that you appreciate about me today?”

And share that and listen to each other. What's something stressful that's happening in your life and how can I support you? And then it might even be something, this one's a bit harder, it might be something where what's something that you needed. And I wasn't able to give it to you today. Because that helps you plan then how can I meet the need at another time?

And as your husband giving you answers to these questions. So it's like a funny question. I'm just laughing because sometimes it's hard to get them in to go deep. You know? Initially.

Initially. Initially. No.

No. When I remember the first time I asked him this question came from the Gottman's daughter.

Dr. John and Julie Gottman, how was your heart in mind today? And when I had first heard them ask that question, I thought, oh, that's brilliant. I can't wait to ask my husband and I can't wait for him to ask me because I'll just have this whole. Yeah. And the first time I asked him, he said, good.

Okay. Yeah. That was like a cold car, right? Yes, right. Yes, good.

Okay. Can you tell me more about it? And over time, it just became a practice.

“But I think what's important again is for me not to show up and say, oh, you always just say good.”

You never give me more than that.

Why can't you just share with me? Because that's the entry. And so if he says good, then I might say, so what does today look like? Or what's today? What's something that's happening today that you're excited about?

And I also believe we just need to learn to ask better questions. And that can sometimes help our partners share. You know, stay curious. That was what took a good call out. They curious because that's what you're going to tell me more. Yeah.

And you're instead of like turning to. And how annoying does that sound? Sometimes I'm like, I'm so annoying. Yeah. You know, why did I say that?

“And that's also our little girls inside of us too, right?”

It's the like I'm looking for connection. I'm looking for someone to come and play with me and looking for someone to ask me. And so I think we have to bring compassion for ourselves too and say, oh, right. That's that part of you that's just looking for someone to see you. Totally.

Dr. Tracy, thank you so much for joining us. This has been amazing. I want to talk to you for hours. Can you let our audience know where they can find you? Yeah, absolutely.

And thank you to both for showing up to this conversation and sharing your own stories. It always means so much. So people can come say hi to me over on Instagram at Dr. Tracy D or all of my resources. You can take my relationship quiz to find out your cycle. That's on my website.

And that's Dr. Tracy D. This has been amazing. And I'm sure like it's nice to know that you're not alone in that a lot of people really do this too. It feels so isolating. Thank you guys for joining us for another episode of In It.

As we all are, you can find me at Jordan Harper under score in P and Ashley Buckler. We will see you next time. Thank you guys so much. Oh, don't forget if you liked this episode too, give us a review and rate us. We would love it and appreciate it greatly.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. (gentle music)