S2E9 Killing Fascism

So on the issue of friends, what's important is not just your actual friends in prison.

Another thing that's important is the number of people whom you meet and with whom you are friendly. I had this core of friends in prison, but there was another two dozen prisoners with whom I was friendly. Right before I left for prison, one of my lead attorneys, Mark McDougall, said something to me that was critically important. He pulled me aside and he said, "The CIA is very angry that you received such a light sentence. They're going to do something to set you up."

So be aware at all times that you're being watched. I go to prison, I'm there for about six weeks. And one of the prisoners with whom I was friendly was an Afghan American pharmacist who unfortunately had an oxy problem.

“He was doing, I think it was seven years for trafficking in oxy cotton.”

He came up to me one day and he said, "Hey John, there's a new prisoner who wants to meet you.

He's the spokesman for the Taliban." I said the spokesman for the Taliban. He said, "Yeah." I said, "Are you talking about that case in New Jersey? Where this Afghan guy claimed to be the Taliban representative in the United States?"

Yeah, that's the case. I said, "Yeah, I followed that case. No, I'm not interested in meeting this guy." And he said, "Oh, okay, I'll tell him."

“A few days later, I'm walking around the track like I did every day. A man is walking toward me with a beard down to his waist.”

And his arm outstretched to shake my hand. I immediately knew this was the guy who professed to be the Taliban spokesman. And I put my hands up in the air like a person would be surrendering. Just so my hands could be seen. And I said, "Stop." And he says, "Come on, man. I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself."

And I said, "Don't fucking touch me." And just as I said that, I looked just past him. And I saw one of the guards in the woods outside the fence with a camera with a long telephoto lens. Going, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. He wanted me to shake this guy's hand. Maybe embrace him. So he could send the pictures to the FBI.

And the FBI could then accuse me of colluding with a Taliban or planning some attack or something. And I said, "Again, don't fucking touch me as God is my witness. I will kill you." Come on, don't be like that. I'm not going to say it again. Get the fuck out of my face. And then he backed off. Well, guess what? He was only in our prison for five days. They specifically transferred him in there to set me up on another charge.

It didn't work. And they transferred him out. Everybody in the administration objected to me writing letters from Loretto. The warden objected because I was embarrassing him that he was running essentially an organized crime outfit from the prison. The CIA hated it because remember the whole point of prosecuting me was to silence me. And instead they made me famous and gave me a voice.

I was a whistleblower. No one who is corrupt like whistleblowers. Where they thought that this was going to just silence me and sted it emboldened me.

“I'm John Kiriaku. Welcome to Dead Drop. What makes us buy tick?”

This is episode nine in our series "Doing Time Like a Spy."

We thank you as always for listening and especially when you like, rate, review or comment on the podcast on whatever platform you call home.

Speaking for myself, I can't imagine anyone aspiring to become a whistleblower. It is not a shortcut to leading an easy life. But once you've made the choice and it is a choice one makes, you can't imagine not seeing it through because if you, the whistleblower, don't all that corruption on which you're blowing the whistle will steep and get exponentially worse. Hopefully you've made this choice to blow the whistle because you can't abide corruption.

The thought of corruption or corrupt politics makes you physically ill. In the outside world there's plenty of corruption, but most of it is pretty well hidden or it's been normalized. In the prison world by contrast, most of it's right out in the open.

If Loretta had been the one corrupt prison run by the Bureau of Prisons, that still would have been cause for concern.

“But much of Loretta's corruption flowed from top to bottom.”

The corruption at Loretta was working in concert with the corruption at other prisons and within the BOP itself. Sure, plenty of people cry corruption from within the prison system about the prison system. I had receipts and plenty of them courtesy of the BOP. By sending this Afghan to set me up, it just proved my position that they were a criminal organization. Whether it's the CIA or the FBI or the BOP or the DOJ, they're all criminals.

I tell people all the time.

“The FBI doesn't get promoted by not arresting you.”

Just as department prosecutors don't get promoted by not prosecuting you, they all see themselves someday as the U.S. attorney or a member of Congress or running for governor or sitting in the big corner office in some a-list law firm. They don't get there by not prosecuting you.

My distributor for Loretta's from Loretta was at first my attorney, Jessalyn Radak, and Jessalyn would send them to Jane Hampshire at a news website called Firedog Lake.

Firedog Lake was progressive and Jane was friendly with Ariana Huffington, the founder and owner at the time of the Huffington Post. Jane would publish the letters from Loretta first and they would be immediately like within an hour picked up by the Huffington Post. They would spread like wildfire, first among the independent media or the progressive media, and then the mainstream media, the progressive media was funny. Meaning it sort of depends on how progressive we're talking. The real progressive media, the transparency proponents, the anti espionage act proponents, they were all in, but the pretend fake progressive media, like MSNBC, and that awful horrible, racial matter, as one example, they saw me as a trouble maker.

Remember, it was the Obama administration that prosecuted me. It was John Brennan that insisted that I be sent to prison.

The funny thing too is, I've always considered myself to be a progressive, although I believe very strongly that the ideological spectrum is not a straight line from left to right.

It's a circle, and at some point, on every issue, it meets, I'm a regular on Fox News. I count some of the most important conservative commentators as close friends. There's a lot we disagree on, but there's a lot we agree on too, and I am very, very happy to work with people, with whom I can agree, and I don't care what their political beliefs are.

“You know, unless they're like lunatics or, you know, Holocaust deniers or something, I'm very happy to work across lines, and that's why I consider myself to be an independent independent.”

I'm not at all tied to either of the two parties. If anything, I consider myself to be a libertarian. Ronald Reagan once said, government is the problem. It's not the solution to the problem, and on so many issues, that's right. Now, I want there to be a strong social security system. I want there to be universal health care, health care is a human right. Everybody should have health care equally, but at the same time, I want the government out of my business. We have too much regulation. We are over legislated, and when we have 5% of the world's population, and 25% of the world's prison population, we have a very serious problem.

We incarcerate more people than China, and they have three times more people than we do. That's not right. I was determined to get those ideas out there into the mainstream. I wanted Americans to be debating them and discussing them, and lo and behold, that's exactly what happened. The unit manager, who was one of the very few people that I didn't hate, decent guy, I don't remember his name, oddly enough, I don't remember any of their names. It must be some kind of psychological defense mechanism, but I don't remember any of their names.

He came up to me and he said, "Hey, I want to warn you, they're gunning for you." I said, "Who is?" And he said, "The warden, the assistant warden, a couple of the other unit managers."

And so that's what I did. When I would write a letter from the redow, I wouldn't leave it in my locker. I would immediately put it in an envelope, address the envelope to Justland, put legal mail on the front and the back, and walk down to the mail room. So that it was out, and they could not intercept it. When my cousin Kip came in and gave me that intelligence that the reason I wasn't in solitary was because I hadn't mentioned anybody's name,

I knew them that I could say anything I wanted, and there was nothing they could do about it. They asked me to stop repeatedly, and finally I said, again, to the unit manager.

“I said, "You know what? I'm willing to stop." But you need to do something for me.”

I'm eligible for six months of halfway house time, six months. Technically, I was eligible to get out of prison at something like 17 months. Actually, it was exactly 17 months. And I said, "I will stop writing if you put me in for the maximum amount of time in the halfway house." The halfway house, because I educated, because I had a support system, because I could easily get a job, I would have been in the halfway house a day or two, and then they would have sent me home and converted the halfway house time to home confinement.

So that was the plan, and he said, "Okay, I said, I'm trusting you here," and he said, "Okay, I'll do it."

“And so I stopped writing. For a period of months, I just stopped writing, and then I went to the cafeteria one day for lunch, and the unit manager was standing there, something that they called call out line for some reason that I never understood.”

He said to me, "Hey, that thing you and I agreed to," he said, "It's not going to happen." I said, "It's not going to happen. You promised me," he said, "I asked for it," they said, "No, it's not going to happen." I ate as fast as I could, and went straight to the phone, and called my wife and told her, "In fact, I said on the phone, these degenerate liars," and that's the term that I used. These degenerate liars were nicked on the deal. She was devastated. So was I, and immediately the unit manager called me in.

Like I said, he was a decent guy. He was a reasonable guy, and he said, "I knew you would be upset, so I was listening to your call to your wife. You called me at degenerate liar."

“And I said, "You are. You looked me in the eye, and you lied to me. You knew that they wouldn't approve it, but you didn't want me to write. You're a degenerate liar just like all the rest of them."”

And he said, "I could put you in solitary for that." And I said, "When are you guys going to understand? I'm not afraid of your solitary." "I don't care. Go ahead, put me in solitary. Believe me. It's going to be a lot worse for you than it is for me." And he backed off. I decided that day, I was going to write letters from the retto regularly, and I was going to point out all of the corruption, all of the official theory that I possibly could, and that's when I really started rolling. That afternoon, I went back to myself to write my next letter from the retto, which I intended as a thank you note to those who would help me. I also intended this to be a direct challenge to the warden.

I'm going to skip the thank yous. I thank a lot of people in this letter from the retto. Here's the rest of it. January 20th, 2014. Hello everybody. I'm sorry I've been out of touch so long. After my last letter, I thought I had come to an understanding with the prison administration. Stop writing letters from the retto, and be put in for nine months of halfway house. Nine months would have seen me leave here on August 1, 2014. Stop writing. I withdrew two formal complaints against staff, and I turned down all press interviews. In the end, I was put in for six months of halfway house, not nine, and I was warned that the six months could be reduced to three or to nothing.

In total, my thumbs and hope for the best I decided to start writing again. God bless the constitution and its first amendment. Just as an aside, I ended up getting no halfway house time at all, not a single day. I thought that when I was denied the nine months that the easiest thing to do was to roll over and accept it. Maybe I would be released on November 1, 2014, maybe February 1, 2015, but as more time passed, I realized that the situation is political in nature.

I realized further that if I just gave up, I would never forgive myself.

It's a pretty good thing that the UV index is actually special in the hope that it needs a high value for all of us. It's a pretty good thing. 90% of the health care industry is actually pretty good. The test is the only control game cream that is allowed to pay for 50+.

I'd like to suggest another great, granular story podcast from the cost-art and touch-done family. Just the photographer with David Swanson does for photojournalism what dead drop does for spies.

“Pulitzer Prize-winning photojournalist David Swanson tells you stories his amazing news photos just can't. What it felt like being in all those dangerous places like war zones and natural disasters, doing his job taking pictures.”

So if you were zones myself, I can tell you this. Just the photographer will put you right there on the ground right next to David. Inside is head-in-fact. It's a hell of a podcast and you can find it wherever you find your favorite podcasts or at cost-art and touch-done.com. There's a link in this episode's show notes. In fact, you'll find lots of great story podcasts at cost-art and touch-done, like the donor, a DNA horror story, the hall closet, sage wellness within and the how not to make a movie podcast.

Who knows, your next favorite podcast might be just a click away. Now back to dead drop. I followed that up less than two weeks later with another letter from the retto.

“February 2, 2014. High again from the Federal Correctional Institution at Loretto, Pennsylvania.”

The term federal correctional institution implies that the government isn't some way correcting the behavior of prisoners here. In truth, that's just a bad joke. Nothing is corrected at Loretto. There's no therapy to help anybody with problems, except if you're a drug addict, nearing the end of your sentence. More on that in a minute. Pedophiles get no psychological therapy whatsoever.

And the only classes offered by staff are GED prep courses and English as a second language classes for the 400 or so illegal aliens serving drug sentences.

After completion of their sentences, then deportation, knowing English will make it easier for them to then reenter the US to restart their criminal enterprises. If you already have a high school diploma, tough luck. Here's how things work. We'll get good conduct time, a maximum of 47 days off our sentences for every year of incarceration. Congress actually mandated 52 days a year, but the Bureau of Prisons told Congress to go screw itself. The only incentive to behave properly is a negative one, so you don't lose your good time.

You get no tangible benefit from taking any classes taught by prisoners, creative writing, introduction to Spanish, and history of Western film to name a few.

“The only way to actually collect your good time is to either get your GED to be working on it or to not get into trouble.”

Everybody with the drug case wants to get into the drug program. If you're accepted and you had no violence or firearms in your case, you're sent to the nearest prison that hosts the program and you must complete 500 hours of classroom work. If you complete the coursework, you can get up to one year off your sentence. The pre-course drug class is supposed to be 40 hours. It's actually about 10 hours, and is comprised only of watching episodes of the A&E show intervention.

If you're a drug addict and you come to prison, you have to get off drugs cold turkey, then wait until you near the end of your sentence to finally get into the drug program.

That means you could wait 5, 10, even as long as 30 years before you get any drug counseling at all. Loretto's so-called education department scheduled a prisoner-led class last ball called quantum physics. Nobody bothered to check whether the prisoner teacher was qualified to teach a course on quantum physics. Nor did anyone request a lesson plan. As it turned out, the gay prisoner teachers only degree was from Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey clown college. The course had nothing to do with quantum physics. It was as self-help pity party for pedophiles and it sought to help them expand their rationale of denial with the theme from Rocky playing in the background all the while.

The teacher began the course by chanting, "We are homos and we're tomos, we're homos and we're tomos." Chomos, of course, being short for child molester. One African-American prisoner who expected to actually learn something about quantum physics got up, shouted, "This is fucked up and walked out." Otherwise, it was a very popular class among a certain demographic. I'm not kidding. Even more worrisome is the situation with pedophiles in general. Despite a recent congressional research service report to the contrary, there is no treatment whatsoever for pedophiles and child molesters. Nothing.

They also trade pictures of children that they cut out of the Toys or Us catalog or parenting magazine. Photos of young-looking 18-year-olds and G-strings that they buy from mail order houses that cater to sex offenders in prison,

“and even pictures of other inmates children, stolen, of course.”

Those moving packs in prison, they sit together in the cafeteria, they take prisoner-led classes together, they watch movies together, and they congregate in large groups in the library and the chapel, all protesting their innocence and complaining that their misunderstood. My friend, Selmate and former colleague Dave and I took a prisoner-led introductory Spanish class a few months ago. Wait after three sessions because the class was nothing more than a coffee class for pedophiles. After one asked, "How do you say in Spanish, do you want some candy?"

We walked out and never went back. The Bureau of Prison doesn't do anything to dissuade pedophiles.

Indeed, in an event right out of the Twilight Zone, the Wardenscent Memo to All Inmates, quote, "Please join FCI Loretto and the Bureau of Prison's as we celebrate the United Nations Universal Children's Day," unquote. The memo, announcing "Happy Children's Day," said, quote, "Our Children's Day celebration will be held on the weekend of November 30th to December 1, 2013. Materials will be available for each family with visiting children ages 3 to 10." So we have a facility where pedophiles and pederasts are warehouse, where they get no therapy or medication for their perversion,

where they spend all their time together exchanging tricks of the trade, and where the Warden gives them advanced warning of a children's event, and they can schedule their own visits and be in the presence of young children from 8.30 a.m. to 2.15 p.m. over 2 days.

You may recall from my third letter from Loretto that a prison guard had to move my entire family during a visit,

because that pederast sheifer from Philadelphia was learing at my nine-year-old son. I'll say it again, if pedophiles must stay more than 1,000 feet from a school on the outside,

“why are they allowed within five feet of my children in the visitor's room?”

Even though I haven't been able to take or at least complete any classes since I got to prison, I have learned a lot. Among the things one can learn are how to cook meth and fedamine, how to smuggle drugs across international borders without getting caught, how to steal food from the cafeteria, and then cook an entire meal using only a live electrical wire and a garbage can full of water. How to make contraband cigarettes using chewing tobacco spat out by the prison guards, dried, and rolled with toilet paper.

How to self-medicate using home remedies and over the counter-concoctions in lieu of real medical care. How to set up a Ponzi scheme and how to defraud mortgage companies and the department of housing and urban development, which was another prisoner-let class. So at the end of the day, I guess I have been educated in prison.

“Maybe I have been corrected. I'm confident now that I'm ready to re-enter civilized society.”

Seriously though, this lack of counseling, rehabilitation, and educational and training opportunities for prisoners is a long-term problem for society. The country is already home to an increasingly large population of uneducated, untrained, unreformed, pissed off, exfellants who are not going to just sit around hoping to win the lottery. Lacking prospects for employment, they'll do what they do best commit crimes. For the pedophiles, they will leave prison and boldened by the fact that they spent their entire sentence

among like-minded sickos without once being challenged about their perversions. The BOP needs to get on the ball. Yours, John. Yeah, I was surprised that I got as much negative feedback on that letter as I did. There were a lot of people who told me that as a progressive, I should be ashamed of myself that I don't support pedophiles re-endering society.

And I just doubled down like, "No, that's not going to happen." Eight days later, I decided to write yet another letter from Loretto. I was on a roll. Hello again from the Federal Correctional Institution at Loretto, Pennsylvania.

On February 7th, I gave my first press interview since the prison administration re-nigged

on our halfway-house deal. They would put me in for nine months halfway-house and I would stop writing letters from Loretto, decline all media interviews, and withdraw two formal complaints against staff. As you know, from my previous letters, that agreement is no longer an effect. And so, on the 7th, I spoke at length with Dean Sidigos, and the Mitodios Tsakas

of the National Herald, the oldest, largest and most highly respected Greek American newspaper in the country.

time to terrorism, drones, and Afghanistan.

“The journalists had gone through the formal approval process weeks and advance,”

were approved, and arrived during normal business hours as instructed. Three hours after the interview ended, I was sitting in the TV room with my friend, former colleague, and cellmate Dave, when another prisoner approached us and said, "Guys, the cops are tearing up your room. We walked back to our room and sure enough two corrections officers were going through all of our possessions.

I thought it was an odd coincidence, but I just shrugged. I didn't have any contraband, so I lost nothing." The very next night, Dave and I went for a walk around the outdoor basketball court. When we walked back into the housing unit, another prisoner approached us and said, "Hey, the cops are tearing you guys up again. We couldn't get to our cubicle

because the gate at the head of the hall was locked." A half hour later, the CEO's opened it and allowed us back in. This shake down was different than the previous days, and I should note that in the previous year, I had been shaken down a total of three times until the interview.

My locker door was left wide open. My cellmate's lockers were all closed and locked. Photos of my children were thrown all over the floor. My mail was strewn all over my bed, and my books were tossed on a nearby chair. I approached the CEO and complained.

retaliation is one thing, but this was just plain disrespectful. Sorry, was the response. We were just following orders. My cellmates were also disrespected. This shake down was very thorough, and they had all lost property.

One of my cellmates, a 40-ish African-American whom I like,

“respect and consider a friend, made an important point.”

He said, "Don't you see what they're doing? They're trying to make us mad with these shake downs, so that we'll turn on you." He imagined a conversation. Let's piss off the big black guy.

So he pressures Kiryaku to stop writing and doing interviews. My cellmate urged me to keep up the fight. He said, "Keep telling people what it's like in here." I promise to do that. The issue here is not the bother and inconvenience of shake downs.

The CEOs are within their rights to shake us down whenever they want. The issue is retaliation and censorship, which are illegal. A senior prison official told me months ago that there have been active discussions about putting me in diesel therapy for the rest of my sentence.

“Diesel therapy is when a prisoner is transferred from one prison to another”

all across the country by a prison van, bus, or con-air plane.

Never staying in anyone prison long enough to receive telephone, email, mailing, or visitation privileges.

I could move to a different prison every week for the rest of my sentence and still not hit them all. In the meantime, my family and attorneys wouldn't even know what time zone I was in. This would obviously be retaliation for letters from Loretto and my press interviews. But the BOP could easily make up a lie that it was related to a bed space issue

or perhaps for my own safety. Still, it would stink of retaliation for the exercise of my constitutional right to freedom of speech. I'm fortunate that my attorneys among Washington's best are willing to sue individual BOP employees as well as the BOP as an organization to ensure that such an assault on my rights doesn't take place.

BOP officials should keep in mind what the Supreme Court said about diesel therapy in the case of Frazier versus Dubois. Section 1210 transfers, although prisoners enjoy no constitutional right to remain in a particular institution, prison officials do not have discretion to punish an inmate

for exercising his first amendment rights by transferring him to a different institution.

Frazier versus Dubois 1990. Similarly, I have a constitutional right against retaliation as the Supreme Court said forth in Block versus Ryebar and in Skug versus County of Clackamus. Section 460, retaliation. Plaintives had a first amendment right to criticize a public officials' performance of his duties

and in action alleging retaliation by official against plaintiffs due to their exercise of their first amendment rights, it was insufficient for them to alleged injury in form of embarrassment, humiliation and emotional distress. Right exists to be free of police action, for which retaliation is but for cause even if probable cause exists for that action.

These cases are freely available in the prison law library, perhaps prison officials should acquaint themselves with them. Maybe they could also look up large and versus Texas, which prohibits censorship. Section 306, censorship. Any regulation, which makes dissemination of ideas, depend upon approval of distributor by official,

constitutes administrative censorship and extreme form and subject to certain exceptions, any regulation which subjects communications to license, infringes right a free speech, large and versus Texas.

First, understand that any monolithic bureaucracy will tend toward corruption without proper oversight.

There is an internal administrative remedy process that's a joke. You write a complaint and they tell you to go screw yourself. Calling for an inspector general investigation is also a joke. An inspector general could make an entire career investigating where the money from the inmate trust button goes. Where did that new flat screen TV in the CO medical lounge,

“especially during federal budget sequestration come from?”

The only alternative is to go to the top, BOP director Charles Samuels. Director Samuels worked his way up after starting as a line CEO, moving up through the ranks to Warden and then on to Washington to lead the BOP. Certainly, he knows the difference between right and wrong. Certainly, he wouldn't want his employees to violate the law as I've documented in these letters.

Certainly, he wouldn't want his people's actions highlighted in a press investigation. So join me in writing director Samuels and in demanding and end to these illegal and unconstitutional actions by his staff. We have to put our foot down and say, "Enough." I'll let you know how things develop. Best regards, John.

I added a post script to this letter from Loretto. It says this. I wanted to thank Representative Jim Moran, Democrat of Virginia,

who sent a second letter to director Samuels last week saying, "As you will recall,

I sent a letter last September requesting that the Department of Justice grant my constituent John Kiryaku at least nine months of halfway house time." Despite the fact that 12 months of halfway house time is well within BOP guidelines, I am disappointed to learn that John's return to society may be unnecessarily delayed. Thus, I am writing to reiterate the importance of John's release to a halfway house

as soon as possible so that he can be a father to his five children and resume productive contributions to society, unquote. Representative Moran is a 12-term congressman and a member of the House Appropriations Committee which controls the BOP budget. Addendum

About 12 hours after I wrote this letter from Loretto, I was called to the Special Investigative Service Office.

The CEO there handed me an envelope containing the first 20,000 words of this book.

I hadn't even realized it was missing since the shakedown. The SIS CEO said that the CEO who had shaken me down had determined that the manuscript had "made threats against staff," unquote. He said, "He too had read it and believed that it did not contain any threats to staff. The allegation was patently absurd in any event.

He returned it to me in its entirety, although he almost certainly made a copy." In one last swipe at my civil rights and my constitutional right to freedom of speech, the shakedown CEO tried to remove my desk from the wall and to confiscate it.

“After all, if I have no desk, I can't write letters from Loretto, right?”

After a while he gave up, the bolts were stripped and wooden budge. I had stripped them on purpose as a preemptive measure. It was a temporary respite though, the CEO issued a work order to chip it off the wall. I had to go to the unit manager who promised me that the desk would not be removed. It wasn't.

These crude amateurish attempts to deprive me of my rights don't originate with a low-level CEO. They come from higher up from officials who should know better. But I have the Constitution in my corner and I won't stop fighting. After my letter was published, I taped a page from a legal pad on the desk and I wrote on it. This desk kills fascism. This was a play on this machine kills fascism, which focusing or Woody Guthrie had famously written on his guitar in the 1930s.

The sign hung up on the desk for only a couple of hours before a CEO tore it down, crumpled it into a ball and threw it on the floor. I picked it up and mailed it home to myself. I keep it as a reminder that I was not alone as I went through this experience. Outside, Loretto, America was beginning to more fully reckon with the terrible things that had been done on our collective behalf. The Senate is notoriously deliberative and slow. But as I fought the corruption inherent in my punishment, the U.S. Senate was about to address the corruption that punished me.

“Remember that famous Nietzsche quote, "I referenced a few episodes back about staring into the abyss and becoming the monster?"”

Well, the good news was I could almost begin to see the light at the end of this God forsaken tunnel and for a change it wasn't an oncoming train. But what had survival cost me inside my head, inside my soul? We've got so much more story to tell in the episodes ahead. We will get into the Senate's report on torture. It doesn't turn out well for the CIA. But in the next two episodes, we're going to talk about rules and about food.

Until next time, I'm John Kiryaku.

“Dead drop is written by John Kiryaku and Alan Katz.”

Costart and touched stone productions produces the podcast and John Kiryaku, Alan Katz and Nick McKenak are its executive producers.

This podcast is the Casterton Touchstone production.