Last Update on the Left - Episode 12 - BTK Returns w/ Katherine Ramsland

That's one of the cannibalism started now. Last update on the left. [MUSIC PLAYING]

“Welcome to last update on the left ladies and gentlemen.”

We got a really special treat for you today. Big update on a big piece of shit. Yeah. I don't think it's like a big dumpper. Yeah.

Big time killer. Big time killer. It's a dumpper. Is it a dumpper? Yeah.

Your Marcus Parks, I'm in Rizeprowski. We're sitting here with that large sun. Hello. We talked with us. She's a-- she's a pep.

Yeah, she's great.

No, no, no, this woman is incredible.

And what I like is-- there's something about a classy lady doctor that just hangs out with serial killers all day. Yeah, this is all she does. That's a good, very frightening almost.

It's Katherine Ramslin. We talked to her about B.T.K.

“About Dennis Raider, the new victims that are supposedly”

Dennis Raider is the ones that are being tied to Dennis Raider, but Katherine Ramslin has many opinions on whether or not there's any truth to that. So all you Raider heads-- Yeah, I get the right answer.

And also, I'll just tell you, upfront, we found out, Dennis Raider not getting fellers, not getting fellers, not getting dentures, not rotting away in prison. The witch-a-tile raiders. [SCREAMING]

That was so funny. Hi, here's an interview with Dr. Ramslin. Bye, from your grave. All right, we are here with Dr. Katherine Ramslin. You've probably seen her on countless serial killer documentaries.

She's written one of the best books about a serial killer that I've ever read, Confessions of the B.T.K. Killer. Katherine Ramslin, Dr. Thank you so much for joining us today. Well, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Of course, well, part of the reason why we're bringing on is that we're here on our update show. And the big update is that it seems like there are new victims of Dennis Raider being discovered, or at least people are assuming that there are Dennis Raider's

victims.

I guess our first question is how much validity

are you giving as someone who's spoken personally in the Dennis Raider many times? How much validity are you giving to these claims? Well, it's been a progression of stuff for the past year.

“I think Sheriff Eddie Birden is who you're talking about,”

because he's kind of leading the way. He's in Oklahoma, Sheriff. Yeah. He laid out the whole case that he had to me and me. And I didn't think he had evidence for some of the things

that he was saying. And certainly everything that he's offered has an alternative interpretation. Sure. And Raider's interpretation is, I know it's not me.

And he's been given immunity to confess to close the cases. He still says no. And the main question that he asked, which I think somebody has to answer, why wouldn't I confess?

Right. Because he loves fame. And he said, I'd go out like a fading star.

It'd be amazing if I had more victims.

And he said, but I'm not going to confess to something I didn't do. And he is so that to, you know, just for example, one of the victims that they had linked to him was the Garber case in Missouri.

Yes. So her body was bowed, I mean heavily bound with six different ropes and cords and whatnot. And dumped on a band of farm property. So that all sounds very raider.

He does. They're like the multiple different styles of rope, like the overdoing it, like almost like an artistic way that way he viewed his clinical work. He actually said it was sloppy.

Kind of insulted that people thought it was his work. Wow. The detective team went to interview him. Lori Howard was the one that I've been working with. And the woman was found in 1990 on Halloween weekend.

Was unclear how she came to be there. It took them a long time to identify her. Once they did through genetic genealogy, they found two relatives who were able to give them more of a sense of where she had been working,

where she'd been living, which put her in that area. And then their chief suspect was killed in a motorcycle accident. And suddenly people came forward who had been scared of it.

And it turns out it was not that as a raider.

Yes. So that's an important case to show that despite all the things that looked very much like it was Dennis Raider, it wasn't. - Can I backtrack a little bit? The reason why I wanted to just clear this up for myself

was that they reason why they even began to think he might be connected to more cases. Was because he insinuated something along the lines of there might be some trophies left in the ball. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

- I know that they could say what happened. - Yes, please, please, please, please. - It's all very confused. It can all be very confusing when I was reading it.

“And I was just like, how do we even get to this point?”

Because I know they got to his journals and they got to his letters, but how do we get to there? - It kind of started because in Oklahoma, in Pahasco, Oklahoma, this young woman went missing from a laundry mat.

Witnesses put her in the company of two people, which is not the way Dennis Raider operates. She's never been found. We don't even have a body. We don't know what happened to her.

But share of burden, we decided to read through some journals that Raider had written that were in the Cassidy Bridge topways. And he saw a little short entry called Bad Wash Day. - Yes.

- And he went to talk to Raider and Raider even said, "Yes, I used to fantasize about that. "That was a good way to get victims,

but it never worked out."

So essentially, Bad Wash Day might be

“Bad Wash Day for him instead of the victim.”

That's what I mean by the ambiguity. - Yeah, it's like how they said in Woodstock, the bad acid wasn't that it wasn't driving people and saying it was that it was extremely weak acid. - That wasn't, didn't do a job.

- So Sheriff Verdon went to the former property where Raider's house had been, it had been torn down, it's just an empty lot now. And that way since 2000, I guess six or so. And he found a nodded pantyhose.

- Yeah, I told you, that piece like, "Oh well, yeah, you would love this boy." And this is his favorite thing. - There's a number of things. The Brazil may be not connected to Raider at all

because it's been a vacant lot that leads into a park and who knows. Secondly, Raider. - Or do you think people go and screw around their at night because it was BTK's old house?

- Maybe. - Or Raider said he used to tie plants to sticks with not a pantyhose as many people do actually. - Oh wow. - So, or it is one of his pieces from a hip-kit

but it's to a victim we already know about. - Interesting. - So there's a number of things here that don't lead us to think he's got another victim. That there was also a letter that he wrote

to the woman who had initially gotten me involved in writing this book and he had said to her, he thought there were some trophies from known victims. He didn't say these were new victims.

Or she would have never, you know,

she would have turned that over to the police immediately. He said that he thought he had moved to them. They had been buried under his shed. He had a lot of hidey holes, really a lot of them.

“But that's what he called him hidey holes.”

And he thought he had moved him but could she just go see. So, share of burden has that letter. So he decides to dig on the property where the shed had one spend

and he claims that he had items of interest. - Okay. - And that was back in, I think, September of 2023. So he formed task force that among the people on that task force

are criminalists including top DNA experts. So here we are May, you know, almost June, 2024. Why haven't they been tested? So instead of coming out with results of a DNA test, especially on the panty holes,

well, but he couldn't really do that because he's handling them with his bare hands. So, but he's still set kept telling me he was going to get a tested and by now you should have test results.

And now they came out with, now last week they came out with this word puzzle, that later had sent in 2004. So, yeah, that's a word. - That's a word, like, okay, so if you had the puzzle,

you can see how he writes these lines, put the place to, to some of my names in there. If you do that, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a busy day. - Yeah, about man, 2004, we found another people's names in there.

- It's like the tour codes where people say they can find

“damn near anything in the Bible through numerology.”

You can find anything in the narrator's side. - Yes, except that I will say this. - The writer had put his own street number and from his at home at us and he put it in an odd way, six to two zero and then another zero was underneath the middle two.

So, share a burden took that to me and, oh well, then it isn't just straight lines. - Oh yeah. - So, I'm free to draw these lines in the spreading ways the way because of what writer this.

But I'm gonna tell you, if all those victim names are in their writer is a master at coding, I don't think that is, actually. - It's not free time. - Yeah, and then the Arkansas team, from Detective's game, to talk to him about a woman named Dana Stidham,

who had around the time of Garber, you know, she also had been bound and killed in her body dumped, and her, if you put DA and A and the A is below DA and, like, writer did with his address, Dana is there. - Because they had shown, because that was just for our listeners

that don't know, there was one of the pieces of evidence that came out that said the name, they used it to spell out the name of the missing girl that they were looking for out of the out of A. And then it said the word's laundromat, right?

Then he did a whole, you could see that. And then it said the name of the town, she had went missing from. But then now that makes a lot of sense, saying like, oh, it's just a bunch of letters.

Anybody can make anything it's easy to make? - In order to get, yeah, in order to get some of those names

“and words, I think one was a name of the street”

or something. You had to do all this sort of crisscrossing. And you can find anything if you, it's right hard enough with that puzzle. - Yeah, it's yassie.

- And if I still say, if that is evidence, bring charges. - Yeah. - Don't just collect this out in the media. You have a task force full of experts, bring charges.

- So why aren't they, like, why are they going to the media? - I don't. He doesn't talk to me anymore. (laughing) - Ask him when you uncomfortable questions.

- Well, you know, the thing is I've been putting this weird position of being Dennis Raider's spokesperson, which is not to say I'm his advocate for innocence in this, but I agree with him. He shouldn't confess to something you didn't do.

- 'Cause also why would-- - And if they, if they're sure that they have evidence, he gets in, bring it. - So is the only reason why they're bringing these charges or at least hinting that they're saying the BTK is

responsible is just because of the way the bodies were found, the bodies were found, bound, or that it's sort of confusing because I know one of the, you said one of the bodies

is found and one of them was never found?

- Yeah, the original victim that started this all has never been bound. - Right, so why do you think they chose Dennis Raider of all people? - Well, because the way the sheriff's puts it

is it was a revelation he had while watching TV late one night that Raider Oklahoma borders, Kansas, and that area of South Eastern, Kansas, where he grew up, he traveled during 1990, early '90s, in the sense for the census from one state to another.

He had a lot of projects and his project list only 10 of which resulted in murder, but he stopped a lot of victims. He has the bad wash day, journal entry. He liked abandoned barns and apparently,

according to the sheriff, some anonymous caller said that Raider had left about in an abandoned barn and they on the border of Oklahoma and Kansas.

He or didn't, he never put that on his project list

but he gave to me. And when I've talked with him, you know, I've kind of been the recipient of him talking to me about all the different law enforcement, people coming in, the FBI came in.

“He had Arkansas, I think, two teams from Missouri,”

Oklahoma and Kansas, and yet no charges brought. And when I was one of the things that did kind of bother me was Sheriff Burton, was sure he knew that the reason Dennis Wooden confesses he didn't want

- 'Cause then he'd have to go to Oklahoma.

- And he said, "That's his abiding.

“That is as most the strongest motivation”

to say nothing." And I said, "No, it isn't his strong, it's in the book, but Sheriff, when read the book, in the book, his strongness motivations to be famous." - No. - Yeah. (laughs)

- And he has told them, "You want to move me, bring charges." - Would you say that's the grand function of his, like, instigating communication with the police and stuff like making a word game.

Like he has no, like what you're saying. He's not an expert at making cryptograms. Like he's not a, he's not a puzzle expert. What drives somebody like Dennis Rader to do something like that.

Like, something like. - 'Cause he liked codes and during 2004, before he was arrested, he was playing this cat and mouse game. - Yeah. - And he enjoyed the media attention to what he was doing.

So he was putting things in cereal boxes like this. - Yes, cereal killer, yeah. - He would have been great on TikTok. I think that Dennis Rader honestly would have really appreciated the NPC culture.

I think so, because he really liked the idea that he had a fan base that he was entertaining. At the same time, he was, he was showing the cops that he was superior to them and, you know,

he was ordering them about here's what you will do

“and if you want to get for the communications from me.”

He made up stories about victims. He, you know, he'd mix similar to that word puzzle. He'd mix facts about his life with fictions. - Yeah. - So to keep him guessing and to keep them looking,

you know, running around, looking for leads and whatnot. - Do you have a book, do you write a book? Do you need a book or journal, like, are we ever going to see any-- - He had lots of journals, he kept journals

of what he was doing. - Do you think we'll ever see any of that or that's just going to go? - Well, that's where Eddie is putting up there. - Ooh, that's where the wash day bad washing.

- Well, that I know, but I mean, like, I mean, I'm talking about, like, the compendium. Are we getting no full? - No, I don't. I mean, it's hard.

“It's scribbly, it's not like a narrative,”

that's articulate and well put together. Just scribbly will notes here and there. - Is it kind of boring? - No, because some of it was, when he was talking about the murders, he put those in detail

and then he used that to create these chapters. And here's actually what happened because I was working for court to be at the time their crime library website. And we had written a case written up the BTK case

as before a rate of was caught. So it was laid out, you know. And then as author, this attorney, in what you talk, decided that he was going to write a book about the unsolved BTK killings and he had seven

and rate or knew they were 10. So he read an, or any of the author and did not want his story told by this guy 'cause it would be the wrong story. And he didn't, he wanted to control the narrative.

- Yeah. - So he then started writing these long chapters. He wrote 13 chapter titles and then in each of these serial boxes, he put a chapter in of the murders. And the funny thing is, though he wanted,

and he denies this, but he's wrong. Because his chapter titles were our chapter titles. - Yes, he like, yeah, he didn't do it in a title. He had to add the word here or there.

- No, I never saw the advice.

Oh, yes, you did. (laughing) - Yeah. So, but yeah, so he did write a lengthy piece and he didn't get all of them to the place

because he was arrested, but they found more of them. And then he would take the original and copy them and then copy the copies to erase any track from a copy machine because they had figured out he'd been copying things in which to stay in a university.

So he was much more careful. And that was his downfall because he didn't have a time to go running around to this copy machine. So he knew how to use a computer. And he asked, can he has a cyber copy?

Can you trace an anonymous, like a disc or anonymous email, and the cyber copy said no. (laughing) - Not no, no, because no, he accidentally, he did not know the answer to that.

And he is written his own article about how his mistake actually led to this. But so what happened is greater than,

and said, put an ad in the paper to let me know

that I can send you a computer disc and it's safe for me and they thought, "Well, this is for real." (laughing) So he did, but it was a disc that he'd been using

as a president of his church council on the church's computer and had he used a clean disc at a library computer. He probably would have gotten away with it. But he didn't use one with his name in some of the data that he erased

and they were able to track it back to that church and the pastor said yes, Dennis Raiders, the president and our complication and he's been using the computer. And that's where his downfall was

is that he didn't have time to make these copies of copies. So you mentioned that you'd written up the BTK story before Dennis Raider was caught.

So when it was finally released

that it was a regular family man, a civil servant, somebody like a pastor, Dennis, when it was released, you know, when his identity was released, like what were your first thoughts? - Well, I didn't write it was one of our,

we had a staple of writers who wrote for the court debate, but I remember media calling me and you know, saying, oh, first of all, they were kind of disappointed that he was such a like a do-eyel family man.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They all wanted the next Ted Bundy, right? It didn't surprise me that much because I studied serial kills. We have a lot of serial killers with families and jobs

and whatnot, that formula that they're the loners and whatnot.

That's old from the 1990s based on very poor data.

And so it wasn't that big of a surprise to me.

“The idea that a man lives a double life, honestly.”

I don't think that's no surprise. - So do you think that there are more, or there have been more Dennis Raiders out there than we really know, like as Dennis Raider is just, he's not a rare case.

He's not a rare case and look, remember Sam little. - Yes. - Who claimed 93 victims over the course of several decades because he knew how to choose victims that he knew would be well under the radar

for police to put any resources into it. He specifically looked for victims who were sex workers, drug addicts, hitchhikers, people that just would not draw resources and he got away with it for a long time. And so when we discover him, right?

But all that time he was operating so we don't know. How many other people can I be like that? - How do we reconcile the differences between somebody like Samuel Little who'll say nothing about his crimes? He is now there trying to sort of attach murderers to him.

But he does sort of like, because he says that he drew pictures of a lot of his victims, but I have no idea like what you can cooperate, what's real or what's not. And then there's somebody like Samuel Little

who says very little, it's truly very little. And then Dennis Raider who says everything, who's also probably one of the most unreliable people because he's a serial killer. Like how do you trust a serial killer

that what they're saying is true? - Well because you do use corroborating evidence. - Yes. - And Peter also do a lot of pictures

“and that's what some of these task force is trying”

to use pictures to identify victims. I mean, you can't, you can't identify an victim from a picture. - No, because they're lying. - How would they know?

Like even Samuel Little after all, - But the way they did was Sam Little was he would say locations, times, use the drawing and then the officers would be able to see, did they find a body there?

At that time that looked like this drawing. That's how you corroborate it. - Yeah. - And Raider, certainly with all full of the 10 victims, he took credit for, it's gonna all corroborate it.

Everything he said, he did is corroborated by the scenes by the evidence. So he's not a totally unreliable person. - Let me, what I find fascinating about all this is that you say that, Dennis Raider, of course,

his big motivation is to be famous. You want it to be seen on par with the zodiac killer and you know, and Jack the Ripper,

“what is it that keeps him from claiming more victim?”

Like, what is it, is it a sense of pride that he has that keeps him from saying like, because 11 victims, 12 victims would make him more notorious than 10, what is it that keeps him

In order for people to keep talking about BTK.

- So where is morality loaves? - They do have some sense of morality, oddly enough. Each one of them has weird lines, they won't cross. Ted Bundy, I was just listening to a bunch of his interviews over the weekend for a documentary

and he had some John Wayne Gacy head. They do, it's not like they're totally devoid of any sense of integrity. It's just not as developed as it is for most of the people, but I think that's the big question,

“why isn't Dennis Rader confessing to and getting more fame?”

He says to me, and to those associates of his who know and for a while, and I've known him for 14 years. He says, I'm not going to admit it's of it and do. He even said, I'm gonna have number 10 tattooed on me so that if I die, it'll still be there

and nobody can change it.

- Very interesting. - 'Cause also good to see him not wanting to claim something that he wasn't necessarily proud of, but he is a, it's weird. This is a massive pride for him.

This was his life's work. - Well, and here's why the Missouri Detective team, when they went over and talked him for hours. I mean, he was willing to talk with them, but they said the difference between

when he talked about his own murders, and then when he discussed the one we were interested in, the difference in his demeanor, his interest level, his excitement told us, he was that our guy. - Yeah, yeah.

Do you think like an officer would try to tie a cold case to someone famous like Rader?

“Just to get more eyeballs on the investigation in general?”

- Could be. I'm not gonna accuse anybody of that, but it does get eyes on it in a way that it wouldn't in any other context. - Well, earlier you said that you've known

Dennis Raider for 14 years, but what does it mean to know Dennis Raider? - Well, and he says that I probably know better than anybody, I've spent many, many, many hours in conversation with him in a lot of context,

and also know the entire police interrogation. I knew the DA before I ever met Dennis Raider, she was a friend of mine. So she gave me access to files, she had. I had no many of his correspondence,

and I see letters, he writes to them. So I know I'm from a lot of different angles, not just what the face he shows to me. I've seen him in a lot of moods.

“I don't know, what do you think it takes to know something like that?”

- So funny, guys, I guess it's really, you've got to know someone we talked with Karen Conti, who worked with a John Wayne Gacy for years, and I guess with, on my end. - What was it that many years?

- Well, yeah, but like, she got to know him in that way. - I did, I agree, but in her book, she details the time she spent with him there wasn't years. - Yeah, but you know, the idea of like,

for us as people on the outside, I view somebody like Dennis Raider, as like a Batman villain inside of Arkham asylum, he's in a glass, he's a Hannibal Lecter, he's in a glass cell, but it's like,

it really is, let's just ask in the general questions. I've like, what's it like to just hang out with the guy? Like, what's it like to go ahead? Like, 'Cause you probably ate lunch with them. You know what I mean?

It's very interesting for us to know that he's walking around, but still, just in a shot just in my life. - I related to her by and to her, I related to her book in that like Raider, and I would watch TV shows and discuss them.

- Yeah. - Like anybody, oh, did you catch that episode? What did you think, you know, we talked about politics, we talked about what's going on in the world. We talked about things that matter to him.

He would count me as a friend. - Yeah. - I'm sure he thinks that I've been, he thinks I'm a good friend because I have helped to advise him on some of this when he thought

that it would be fun to play games with these officers. That's initially why he would meet with them for hours

'cause he thought he always had the upper hand

and then found out he really doesn't. - Yeah. - 'Cause he can't walk out of there and they can make whatever they want with whatever he says. So he's, I think, been kind of humble to buy

what has happened in the media with these cases being linked to him and doesn't like it. It's not like he's going, well, look at me. I mean, I'm in the press.

I don't think he's that deep, frankly, so that you have to spend, you know. - He's not getting to know a philosopher or something. (laughs) - Henry needs to know what is his favorite television show. - He loves watching American movie classics.

- Oh, sure. - Sure. - I could see him being classics guy. Yeah, I could see Westerns.

- He's always talking about whatever old movie

he's seeing that reminded him of his childhood. - Sure. Meet me in St. Louis. I mentioned he was a big, Judy Garland guy. I could see him being--

- I don't think he was. - No. - I don't think so. - I liked the net from the shallow from the mosquitoes. That was a big one for him.

- Yes, that's really weird because my mom is like a dead ringer for a net from the shallow.

“So I think his mother was probably very close to her as well.”

- And that's something that I wanted to ask you about is that you mentioned, you know, a net from the shallow and I know that he when he was younger had a lot of very dark fantasies about a net from the shallow.

And one of the things that it's always fascinated me

about BTK is that, you know, a lot of every serial killer that you read, you know, every biography starts off with the horrific childhood, starts off with the abuse. With Dennis Raider, there wasn't really any-- there hasn't been any evidence,

like all the evidence points towards Dennis Raider having a normal childhood. No abnormalities at all. So I mean, is there something hidden there, do you think? Or is he just like this?

- Well, it's one of the reasons I wanted to work with them is he's an outlier to the formulas, but he's not the only one. I mean, I know a mother is that do not have any kind of horrific childhood that is a formula that say an idea that they all have.

And to the point where I've been told by some experts in the field, he just lied to you.

Well, OK, but I talked to other people who knew him as a kid too.

And there wasn't really-- his family was like, all American, middle class, Kansas, religious, family, both parents, both sets of grandparents of, you know, farm kid, oldest of four brothers, had buddies in high school,

had girlfriends. I mean, he didn't have abuse in his background.

“- Do we really think that that's why I hate again,”

use this term. That was what made him quote unquote successful what he did for so long and then sort of, like, fell apart, instead of this, almost because there wasn't a sort of like sane co-morbidity in his brain.

I mean, like, idea that he wasn't a completely totally crazy person. - The excess had a lot to do with luck. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Because he made mistakes.

And he knew he did, and he was scared. But the police didn't pick up on it. And, you know, it's the 70s. They didn't have all the things we have today. - Yeah.

- For they didn't have databases. They didn't have forensic instruments. They didn't have DNA. There's all kinds of things they did not have as an aid in investigation.

And serial murder, 1974, my Lord, aren't they new anything?

“- So you say, you wanted to study it because he was an outlier.”

What did you find? - Well, he was an outlier in that he studied killers from the 1950s and '60s through two detective magazines to adopt these role models. There aren't many serial killers who have done that.

So that was a new visual. And that he was more of, you know, it wasn't a reactive serial killer. It wasn't anger. It wasn't, there was to a certainly part of it.

But he wasn't, it wasn't the murders that were part of what turned him on. It was the bondage. - Yeah. - So once he's done things to people,

he's got a killer. 'Cause otherwise of the Identifyment Tournament. But to some serial killers, the murder is the highlight. - That is not true for rape. - Process.

- Yeah. So he's a number of things that were at least different enough for me to want to, track this, track his trajectory to try to figure out how do we get somebody who's an all-american kid.

Who becomes this family man, church leader, voice scout, volunteer, holding down jobs, and also has this dark life of serial murder because he wants to be an elite serial killer, like Jeff Ripper, Ted Bundy, people like that.

- I have a question. - This is extremely stupid, Dr. Ramslin.

just you can answer it or not.

But I have a thought on my ad. - I'm nervous. - It's gonna come out just like this. Let's say there was a world where you could make these types of like live dolls.

So you've seen these live dolls, right? They look just like people. They're like silicone and big. What if there was a world where somebody got like BTK, could you give them five of them?

And you go, go to town on them. Like he's a bunch of ropes. Here's all the stuff. Like you could go to town on those who will send them back after. You think that would actually help somebody like that.

I didn't mean to make that the thumbs up emoji go 'cause this is just a inappropriate time. (laughing) - And that way I could be a little patient. - I mean, would that be,

like you think that would ever fix any of these guys or help any of these guys, or is it just like, you know, you know what I mean? Am I crazy?

“They'd be able to go to a place where you get it out of your system?”

- I'm not sure if I follow you or you're trying to say, how do we use this for intervention? Is that what you're trying to ask? - Essentially like robot mannequins, that you can do your BTK thing to and then you leave 'em

like in a scaper. You want a smashing room for serial killer. - Yes. Do you think I would get it out of their system? - He thought so.

He said that had there been S&M clubs. That he could go to, or something like that, where he had a way to vent and, you know, sort of some of the pressure of the kinds of fantasies he had.

He thought that would actually have made a difference for him. - But there were S&M clubs. He could have, not I could thought of which he taught him. - He cances? - I mean, (laughing)

- Actually, you feel like a lot of it. It's just you're just a fast farmer, John. You'd be surprised you like getting spanked out of hell. - Yeah, I was like, (laughing) - I was not in 1970s.

- Yes. - With his 80s and a very religious community, he can't be, it's gonna have to be somewhere else. He can't be seen, go on. - He got to go to the house. - He's a, you know, president of it's,

“or I think it's vice president and president,”

I mean, he's got a family, he's got an appearances to keep up. So it's not as if he can just go join some S&M club. But I don't think there were an M which taught the time. I was just reading about David Parker Rae and, you know, in his life, and there was some wild shit going down

in Albuquerque in the '70s and '80s that he was part of. - Yeah, but he was in a very isolated place to his toy box, so he also had accomplices who were bringing people to him. - Yeah.

- So he was in a very different kind of situation. - It's a different situation, but I also found myself seeing some similarities between David Parker Rae and Dennis Raider. But he didn't have that middle class wife

and kids in church and he didn't have that wasn't him. - No, David Parker Rae technically was live in the dream. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? Dennis Raider wished he could have lived the life

that David Parker Rae did. I think so. - I think that's true, I think he would have preferred to have been a different environment than he ended up in. - Do you don't think he's still gonna end it up killing

that he would have gone too far for him? But if let's say he was in Sanford, like literally like chooses city, a modern city, now where you could go and live life in any way you want and you could go live or whatever life sell you want,

do you think that in the end that would actually have been enough for him? - It depends on the direction as fantasies you would have taken him, yes.

Because the first murder, the tariff family,

it was supposed to only be two people. - Yeah. - He planned to badly that day. But he had just been fired from a job and really liked he was feeling like a failure

because now his wife was supporting him. The values of the middle America in the 1970s, the wife is not supporting the husband and he felt like a failure, he was angry and he was acting out, had that not happened.

And he had a way to discharge his fantasies.

“I think it's possible that he wouldn't have done something”

like that. - And after he got the first taste of it, I guess it was just all downhill from there. - Yeah, pretty much. - To that point, I mean,

you know, of course, the big thing about BTK is that he would pop up every once in a while and then just suddenly stopped and went dormant and didn't do anything else

until he finally resurfaced with it.

- That's true. - It's not. - Wasn't that other true crime books? (laughing) He says, he gave me a list of 55 projects

of people he stopped whose homes he entered, where he waited, they would have died, had they come home or had he had enough time to probably stop them the way he wanted to. He had a lot of people in his scope

and he has said, "I didn't stop, I just didn't succeed." - Wow. Were those people notified? - The sun.

- Yes, somewhere. - I never wanna know.

“And people to this day ask me what am I on that list?”

Did he visit my house at such and such a street, would you please ask him? I don't know why they wanna know. - Yeah, yeah, don't tell me. I don't wanna know how many times I almost died.

- I also hear, you know, along with all this new potential, new victims for him. I now have a number of women who claim he picked them up or he, you know, took, there was one on Nancy Gray to claim he danced with her in a nice suit.

I thought, well, that's not him. - Yeah. - Yeah, that was not him, but for some reason, she got enough believers to get on a show. I've had women claim that he sat with them

at their kitchen table and then left all of a sudden, he said, "If that were him, he would be dead. You would not be telling me this story." - And he's not that memorable of a guy. I don't think you, I don't know.

- No ordinary, that I'm amazed that people think they're so right.

They know a car he drove, he never had that kind of car.

- Yeah, so, so it's, but there's a whole book on people who think Ted Bundy stopped them or picked them up or did this and that, and it isn't physically possible for him to have been with them at that time. And yet they persist in their claims

that it was Ted Bundy. - Oh, famously, yeah, Debbie Harry, the lead singer of Blonde. - He's one of them. - Yeah, he's one of them. - He wasn't any fit there where she was.

- Well, all this BTK talk has made me happy of a small closet. - Yes, it is very, I know a lot of you. - You know, I know me, this is a criticism, but as a person that's looking from the side,

I'm gonna say, I saw some recent pictures of Dennis and he's not looking good. I'm gonna talk with them about fillers, or if you talk with him about any sort of cosmetic fixes

“or anything 'cause he's, honestly, he's not looking great.”

- No cheating. - None.

- He's got scoliosis, so he's all bent over.

He's lost something like six inches from his height. - Wow. - He's, he's not in good shape. - No. - He knows it. - He's 78. - I mean, he's not young, people change when they get over.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And he doesn't have great care either, or exercise, or great nutrition, or any of that. - Yeah, because they just kind of like watch him, essentially, like, yeah. - Yeah, do you think,

'cause when you say he doesn't have like great care, or anything like that, like, I guess what do you think Dennis Raider deserves? Is it just like any other human being? - That's not really, within my scope of expertise,

I don't study prison systems or any of that, and I don't really, I don't know, I don't want to even take a stand on that. - Sure, fair enough, absolutely, definitely. - And I'm about to go to crime cons.

- I'm not going to make that clear. - He's not going to crime cons, because, like, honestly, I get scared of the other true crime podcasts. (laughing) - Why are you guys going to crime?

Are you gonna be there? - Well, the last time we went, to be honest, the last time we went to crime cons, a very, very early crime cons,

one of the very first ones.

- Which one? - I had an Indianapolis. - It was an Indianapolis. - I think that was the first one. - I was.

- I was. - I just remember it was a lot of Nancy Gray, said 845 in the morning. See in her live in person in a hotel lobby when you haven't had coffee yet, like, it's a lot.

- Yeah. (laughing) - She's pretty much a star with crime cons. - Yeah, yeah. - Where she goes, it's the Nancy Gray show.

- No, she walked through with a massive entourage, bodyguards wearing her eyes. - She's on the test force for all this. She's the head of the test force. - Oh, she is?

- Yeah, most of the people on Eddie burdens, the test force are people associated with Nancy Gray's immediate capacity. - Yeah, she was lift weights too. She's strong.

- No. - You haven't sat her down and that's her better. - No, no. (laughing) - This is awesome.

Thank you so much for talking with us, Dr. Rapes. - Yeah, you're the best. - Thank you for putting up with me. - Thank you so much.

“- And before we go, like what is what's your latest project?”

Like what's your newest book that you have out? - Well, the one I've finished today. - You finished the book today? - I've finished, I've finished my book for my horse. - For your horse?

- What's your horse? - What did your horse kill? (laughing) - I'm right in the horse. He said, he said, "I've been up to this crime."

- Right? - Right? (laughing) - Can I ask that one thing about your personal life in terms of serial killers and all this stuff?

Does it affect, like we've now been in the quote of quote, "Silent, serial killer business" for like, almost 15 years. And it's hurting me emotionally and mentally every day. What do you do?

Like, what do you do to sort of like-- - I grew up a horse, a group of horse and a rider horse. I work, I actually volunteer in a horse farm. I drag the field, I drive tractors, I do.

I'm about to retire from my current job, which I'm very happy about. - Yeah.

“- I will continue to teach online graduate courses,”

but I'm about to end my academic career. - Well, congratulations. - Which is great. But in terms of the most recent book that's relevant to you all is the serial killers of Prentice,

where I spent a year talking to Elmer Wayne Henley Jr. about his being an accomplice to Dean Coral. - We need it to have a greater conversation. - No much more to the story than what Jack Olson wrote in his, you know, Candyman book from 1974.

There's so much more to the story

that has never been put out there.

And it was very interesting how tell you, Wayne Henley is a really smart person, easy to talk to, very articulate and has a lot to say about what happened. - So can we have you back to talk about that after we've read that book?

- Could have absolutely looked to it. I am fascinated about the possibilities of John Wayne Gacy, Dean Coral and all of them kind of like, not maybe not knowing each other, but being like one degree, you know, that's part of the book,

because my co-author is Tracy Olman who do 10 years of work on the Gacy case. - Yes, so I'm curious. - A lot of the work on the networking that Coral talked about.

And we know that Gacy was fascinated with the Coral case. So, but that's Tracy Olman's part. And I can ever, and the show is, wow, we can both be on the show, but what she brings to it was this bigger picture that the police never investigated.

- That's awesome. I mean, not awesome, but, you know, I'm excited about the book. That is like, that is like right now and my street right now. That and Rupal's Drag Race.

- Yeah. - I really think that's some things I focused on quite a bit. - Thank you so much, Jack and Ramblin. - Thank you so much. We really do appreciate it.

And yeah, we'll, you know, get on reading the book like getting the book together and then we'll have you back to talk about it because it's fair. - It's right here behind you. - It's incredible.

- Oh, that's the new, and that's out now? - Yeah. - Oh, so we'll plug the, we should plug your book. - What we just did.

“- That's right, that's why I'm going to CrimeCon”

is to speak about this book and my experience of talking with Wayne. - That's fine, that's fine. - Well, I'll see you with HorsesCon. - Oh, yeah, and that's what it's about.

(everyone laughing) - Oh, good idea. - Thank you so much. - All right, thanks. - We'll be right next time.

- That's fine. - Thank you. - Bye, from Northland. - What an amazing interview that just was. - Mine, yeah.

- It's just because, you know, I guess we always

hesitate favor. That's always, but, yeah, Dennis Raider, I find, I find fascinating. - Of course. - And it was so great to talk to somebody

who arguably the person who knows Dennis Raider the best. And Dr. Ramslin has a very interesting approach. It's also kind of reminds me of the time of why we do what we do here at last podcast and the left are reminding ourselves

little time the serial killer's are people. - Yeah. - And there are humans in there. And it's so weird to just imagine,

“just like with Dr. Ramslin, just talking TV.”

- Yeah. - With Raider, talking about, talking about whatever's on TCM. - I wanted to ask if he was a Biden voter. (everyone laughing) - I don't want to get into trouble.

- I want to get into trouble. - Yeah, he can't vote. - Yeah, he can't vote. - Yeah, he can't vote. - Yeah.

- Oh, man, he can't. - Rock the bow? - No, I want him to vote. - I wanted him to talk about, like, did you see last night there was sudden fear.

It's an underrated Betty Davis film. - All right, absolutely loved palm royale. (everyone laughing) - Christy Wigg is a revelation. - You know what, I took away from it was when she said

the person that they were trying to pin the murder on. On him, one of them, there was someone who died in a motorcycle crash and everyone said, that was a person who killed him or just all scared of him. Everyone, we should start looking at all

these motorcycle crashes. (everyone laughing) - You had to try to tie him murders to him. - But her new book, we mentioned it at the very end. She talked about it at the very end.

It just came out last month. It's called the Cero Killers Apprentice. We are absolutely going to be reading this book and bringing her back on the show to talk about this. - Oh, yeah.

- It is about - Elmer Wayne Henley. - Elmer Wayne Henley. - Is this system? - I mean, yeah, 'cause it's the candy man murders

the pre-dated John Wayne Gacy. There were the number one highest body count in American Cero Killing History in Tel John Wayne Gacy. And there was only one book ever written about this that was written...

- You have to go. - Oh, yeah. - Oh, yeah. - It's older than us. - Yeah, it's older than us.

Yeah, she thinks she's it was written 1978.

So this is incredible that there is a new book

out about Dean Coral and what actually happened way back in Houston in the 1970s. - This is a beauty you get in on. - I can't wait because this is extremely fascinating.

about Dean Coral and the connection to John Wayne Gacy

and to the various smuff film.

“I guess like there was literally a male order”

smuff film system that was happening for a long time.

Look, look, talk about this. - I can imagine. - A legend. - Boom. (laughing)

- Well, I'll see. - Hey, Gene. - Haircalf from Ramsay.

- Yeah, it's a good workout.

- You just said hair. - You just said hair. - Well, hell or two. (laughing)

“- Thank you for enjoying the last update on the left.”

You can find other shows that you'll enjoy from the last podcast network on lastpodcastontheleft.com. See you there.