Last Update on the Left - Episode 16 - Biggie & Tupac: An Interview with Greg Kading

That's one of the cannibalism started.

[MUSIC PLAYING] Last update on the weapon. [MUSIC PLAYING]

“Welcome to last update on the left, ladies and gentlemen.”

My name is Marcus Parks. I'm here with Henry's Nebraska. Yes, you are, friend. And Ed Larson. Hi, you're doing.

And our guests today, we're doing an update on the series that we did on the murders of Biggie Smalls and two-pocturcure. We have the author-- one of the sources we used-- we have Greg Cating author of Murder Wrap.

How you doing today, sir? Hey, guys, what's happening? Don't worry, man. We're just trying to shift books, dude. [LAUGHTER]

We're just doing it right now. Thank you for updating us. Because things have changed. Yet a lot has changed.

So your book was first published in 2011.

Right. So what is changed since 2011? How has the get specifically-- I know the two-poct case in particular has kind of exploded since then.

Yeah, because of the recent indictment

“in arrest and current prosecution of one of the assailants”

in that murder, things, the dynamics of change. It's no longer an unsolved case, which it had been for decades. So 2011, I write the book, years later, it's the documentary, a few years after that.

It's a limited series. And then, so I'm telling my story, people that are familiar with it, we've experienced it. But it's been like an evolution, just a journey.

But it's so great to at least in one of the two murders,

seeing some closure. Well, I mean, so when KVD was a rut, could you kind of give our listeners like a background like who KVD was and how he, you know, what role he played in two-pox murder?

Sure. So the night the two-poct was shot. He'd gotten into a fight. He actually went over and kind of sucker punched a guy who was in the hotel lobby, the casino lobby in Las Vegas.

“He had two-pocted ran over and sucker punched”

a guy named Orlando Anderson, who was a gang member from California. And later that night, that individual, along with three of his gang associates, including his uncle, a guy named Duane Davis,

aka KVD, they all go to brutality. They tracked two-pox down, they run into him, just off the strip in Las Vegas. And the individual that with a firearm, and shoots two-pox to die six days later.

So that's kind of who KVD was. He was the one who secured the gun. He gave the gun to his nephew who was in the backseat. KVD was in the front passenger seat. And he's the last man standing.

He went on to brag about his role in the murder and his concessions are what actually landed him in trouble. Why did it take so long? Because he's been bragging openly about being involved in this for a long time.

Is it simply because, well, no real guilty person would just tell the world multiple times that they've done something terrible. Or is it just how do you put these it about putting together the evidence?

- It was a perfect storm of stupidity on his part. So he confesses to us back in 2009, but it's done under what's known as a proffer agreement. It's an agreement between him, his attorney, and the government at the time who was going through a day.

The queen for a day is another term for it. And so he sits down with us confesses to his role in the murder and then for whatever reason believes that that agreement extends into the public. So when you're having this conversation with law enforcement,

we honor our agreement, we're not going to use your own self-incriminating statements. However, when you go out and brag to the world about it, you're no longer under the conditions of that agreement. He either didn't misunderstand it or disregarded it

and wanted to go out and see what kind of attention he could get from himself. - Now, I've got a question about the car in particular. So if fire remember correctly, Kiffy D was in the front seat and he handed the gun

that they got from zip the drug dealer in New York. And but who was the one who actually fired it? Was it Deandre or was it Orlando? - According to Kiffy D, Deandre was in the best position to fire because he was in the passenger.

He was in a rear seat of the car. I don't like closest to twopox. So he is right behind his own driver.

in the passenger seat.

So Deandre is in the best position,

“but Kiffy D says when he went to hand it to Deandre,”

Deandre was like, man, I don't put this on me. Well, Orlando, who is the gangster in the back seat, who had been sucker punched, it's really his job. He's the one who had been confronted and slugged by twopox. So Orlando takes the gun,

leans over Deandre out the window and begins shooting into the vehicle striking twopox. - Do you think Orlando's confidence was really escalated because he was wearing a dammery, no jersey? - This is coming from a dolphin seat.

- It's a dolphin seat. - He's a dolphin seat. - I'm sorry, I couldn't do any good now. - So they were planning on assassinating him that night, no matter what, correct?

weren't they looking to do it at the after party at the six. - Parts too club? - Yeah, everybody knew that twopox and shook in the rest of their entourage were all going over to the club six, six, two, which twopox

“was going to perform, my Tyson was going to make an appearance.”

So it was well broadcasted, that's where they would be. However, when Kiffy D or Lando on the rest of them got over there, they realized like this is not, this isn't the right place to try to handle this. There's cops in the parking lot,

there's other gang members, say realize that that just wasn't gonna be a practical place to try to retaliate. Just by fate when they leave, they go down the road and that's where they encounter

shooting to block, driving towards the club and take advantage of that opportunity. - I mean, if we go back to them being in Las Vegas for this purpose, one of the questions that we had

during our series that we never really got,

and we never really settled it on a satisfying answer, was as far as like, PDD's role in this. - Oh yeah. - We could never quite land on weather, PDD like suggested like,

hey, it would be nice if somebody took care of twopox or if PDD actually said like, I will pay you money if you kill this man for me. If you're a few kill him and shug night for me. So yeah, I could've seen just like a fun suggestion

from PDD for one angle, but then the other thing, or was it an organized hit? - Yeah, what do you think?

“- I think it lies in that middle ground.”

I think that Puffy was really afraid that he had a target on his back. He knew when he came to LA that he was a dead man walking. And he really understood the seriousness of what was going on.

And it was out of that sense of fear and desperation that he makes these solicitation. There was like, hey man, somebody's got to help me out. You need to take care of these guys. I need, you know, I need protection.

Can you handle this? Well, he's talking to these guys that are from South Central Los Angeles from Compton that don't think twice about shooting somebody. - Yeah.

- And so I think it was the fear and desperation in this kind of exaggerated conversation from Puffy, problem is he's talking about to guys that have no problem doing this in real life. So I think the combination.

- Yeah, if he did it at a local improv group, they would have just done a scene about it. (laughing) But because he told that to guys that kill people, they were like, oh, we do this.

- Well, that was another, that was another one of the central themes of our series, like with a lot of these guys is like be careful what you pretend to be. And it seemed like a lot of these guys

were pretending and did not realize that they had stepped into a very real world. - Yeah, so Tupac not being from, you know, the world of gangs had ingratiated himself with these gang members that were affiliated

with death row records. And he had a sense of brotherhood, you know, he had a sense of belonging with these guys who had his back. And so when an opportunity came for him to prove to them that, you know,

he equally had their back is when he stepped into a hornet's nest and took on a fight that he couldn't finish. And so that's really where he got himself into trouble was trying to be something that he wasn't. - At what point do these guys,

somebody like P did he become a musician and go from a musician to a human trafficking?

- I, you know, that was never part of our purview

we never saw that, that was all very well hidden. And now that it's coming to the surface and being exposed, like we never, none of that was being brought to our attention during that period of time.

- I don't know what was happening back in New York

“with investigators that were perhaps investigating”

bad boy records as a racketeering organization back in the '90s. I don't know what they knew, but for our purposes,

we never had any information about him being this,

who we are beginning to see him as today. - Yes, it's really strange. It's like, it's kind of crazy 'cause all these guys, it was just kind of beat, it was more like a straight-up beef,

like really guys fighting with each other. The turns out that some of these guys are really running cryptic criminal enterprises underneath, which is already very challenging. Being a professional musician, it's very difficult.

I feel like adding all of this other stuff is so much harder. (laughing) - Obviously. - So you're LAPD, correct?

- It was, I'm very tired. - You were LAPD, so like, 'cause so this murder occurred in Las Vegas, so how did you get involved with this and how was your experience working with Las Vegas PD

because I had heard rumors that the Las Vegas PD can drug their feet quite a bit on the investigation? - So I'm a Johnny come lately. I don't get involved in this thing till almost 10 years after the fact,

I come along in 2006, working on the cold case murder of Biggie Smalls, which was a Las Vegas, I'm sorry, which was a Los Angeles case. And so in the pursuit of trying to solve Biggie's murder is when we stumble upon KPD,

and we have reason to believe he potentially had information on Biggie's murder, but when we confront him on that, he's like, I can't help you with that, out was an us, but what I can tell you about is the two-pock murder,

“'cause that was us, and so that's how it opened”

the door to two-pock's murder, even though it happened in Las Vegas. - It's incredible. - So where are we at now with the Biggie Smalls investigation? So now we, 'cause still technically it's unsolved, right?

- Technically it's unsolved. We have a similar type of thing in the Biggie case, as we had in the two-pock case, and that we have a confessing coaxon spherter who was a one of SIGNITE's babies mamas,

and she confessed her role in that murder in implicated both SIGNITE and the shooter, which was a gang member that was associated with SIGNITE's name Wardel Faust. So a female confess to her role in that murder,

it's a bonafide confession. It's one that we believe to be true. However, the shooter Faust was killed in 2002, and of course SIGNITE is, you know, in prison for an unrelated murder.

- And he's blind, so it's so hard for him

“to kind of discern what's going on anywhere around him.”

He must be so confused at all times. - Yeah, I don't think he can see the deep. (both laughing) - The consequences of his actions. - Put that upon.

(both laughing) Have you met Shope Knight? Have you done any interview with him or talk with him at all about this?

- No, I'd never had any face time

or should. I spent a lot of time surveilling him, following him around and watching his activities, and then of course, listens to him on phone calls, and requested an interview with him,

but it was declined, he didn't want to be interviewed. So I've never heard of the face, but I already know what it would be like. It would just him being smug and having smart ass answers. You're never gonna get the troops from SIGNITE.

- Yeah, no. - Have you listened to his podcast? - I've listened to a few episodes. - What did you think of that's my point? - That's my point too.

- That's my point too. - Yeah, it's a prison podcast called Collette Call. (laughing) That's a great name. - It's expensive to produce.

- But yeah, so it's just basically,

it sounds like him just giving smart ass answers. - It just him being shug, you know, he just comes out and blames everybody else for his problems and throws his opponents under the bus. It's actually a brilliant idea

whoever came up with that concept and got shug to agree to do all these phone calls, pretty smart. But it's entertaining, but there's no value of truth in it. - Sure. - Yeah, because even just looking at this,

it's just him being like, they won the name of an episode of Collette Call with sharp night. It's like, I salute the women and you're like, "I don't know if she'll guess."

(laughing) - You know, I'm special. - I won time at the comedy store and he didn't wanna talk about this at all.

(laughing)

“- Yeah, but no, he almost ran him and Catway”

and I'm trying to run us off the road afterwards.

It was very, they were having a great time. - It sounds terrifying. - Yeah, especially 'cause he ended up killing somebody with his car. - Yeah.

(laughing) - So when it comes to the biggie murder, is it, do we think it was Crips or Bloods or do you think it was outside? 'Cause it could have just been everyone from L.A.

and did both of these murders? - Yeah, well, it was people from L.A. except the Crips had killed Tupac and the Bloods had killed Biggie. So it all came down to gang activity,

gang rivalry. So you gotta think about this conflict at three different levels.

You had Puffy and Shug were at odds, right?

Biggie and Tupac were at odds. Bad boy and death row were at odds. And then of course, they were associating with gangs that were historically enemies. And so there's four different levels of conflict

and had gone back for years all the way back to 1994. And so it all just culminated in Tupac getting shot, Biggie getting shot, but it was all just gangsters doing what gangsters do. - And after Biggie was shot, like to the point

of it, you know, just as it was there, an escalation of like, you know, like smaller skirmishes that, you know, the public just kind of didn't know about or was Biggie like sort of the high watermark of that particular feud.

- No, the high watermark of the feud was actually Tupac. 'Cause after Tupac gets shot in Las Vegas, then back in Compton, a 10-day war started between the Blood Associates of Shug Knight and the Crips Associates of Puffy Cones

of, so the war started last to 10 days and claim several bodies. So that happened after Tupac. And then it just continued to go, but once Tupac died and Shug went to jail,

everything kind of seemed to, I'm mellow out and calm down.

“And that's why I think that when Puffy Cones”

and Biggie come to Los Angeles, they figure that the coast is clear. - Yeah. - And it's all put behind 'em and they had a false sense of security

and they walked right into the death trap. - Do you think these days, we've ever talked to these guys in more recent years, like, do they ever regret these lifestyles that led them to this, like this idea?

'Cause we did, when we did our series,

I'm still always haunted the idea of your,

you're pretending to be this thing and then it all becomes very real around you. Like, and yes, they're a mixture of real criminals, but also a lot of these guys are just artists mixed in with criminals that don't know

that they're kind of getting themselves in deep trouble. But like, do you think that after the fact like, did anyone learn anything from their murders? - It's a really great question and you have to, like, look, there are guys, for instance,

one of the main heads of the mob-hiro gang, which was the gang that was affiliated with Death Row Records, shrug nights kind of gang on garage. The head of them was a guy named Bob James, and he's completely evolved beyond the gangs.

It has remorse and is trying to help youths at risk who want to go into gangs. So there are some guys that have transitioned out of that lifestyle and are trying to do good things. But meanwhile, there's a lot of guys like,

KVD who says, you know, I'm a Southside Crypt for life. - Yeah. - And then still continues to, you know, act like a 15-year-old when he's 60. - How do you feel with--

- To give my call. - I've got some allergies. - Oh, you're fine. - No worries. So how did you feel when KVD was arrested

and he had a copy of your book? - Yeah. (laughing) - Well, it's interesting 'cause that's gonna be his whole self-defense is that,

well, other people were benefiting financially

“from the story, so that's why I'm telling my story.”

So that's gonna be his defense. And then I don't think it's gonna hold water. I think that he's gonna end up getting convicted and this whole thing will be put behind us. - Well, yeah, I mean, he wrote a memoir

and what he fully and completely confessed in the part of the murder. He just kind of thought that I think what you're saying is that he did not understand that it does not mean that you are legal to say it wherever you want.

- Yes, I don't think his age is literate. Whoever ghost wrote that for him, I don't think they wanted him to know. - 'Cause how you're gonna sell books.

- You sell books recanting the confession? No, you're gonna sell a dick, be it, tell 'em, spill 'em the beads. What do we know, Orlando Anderson, who we think was the shooter in the Tupac murder?

“What do we know 'cause he was killed shortly afterwards?”

What do we know about that? - Well, we know Orlando was suspected of committing at least one other murder prior to shooting Tupac. And so on the 1998, which would have been two years after Tupac's murder, Orlando Anderson

and a guy named Michael D'Row ran into some guys who were attempting to collect a drug debt and they got into a shooting in situation where Orlando ends up getting shot and killed. And Michael D'Row of the four people

that were involved in that conflict, three of them died. Michael D'Row, who's the last man standing ends up getting charged and convicted of all three murders under what's known as the California felony murder rule.

So if you participate in a crime and people get killed, even though that was not the intention, you know, like if you go to do a robbery and one of your robbery partners shoots the clerk, but you're gonna catch a murder case,

even though you never went into it with that intent.

So that's how Orlando dies. He dies in a attempt to collect a drug debt and then his partner in that ended up getting three life sentences. - My God.

So when it comes to the Biggie Smalls murder, as far as like cold cases go of that sort,

“like how often is it the case where you know who did it?”

And you absolutely know who, but you just don't have the proof. Is that, does that kind of come up a lot in these sorts of cases? - It happens all the time.

In fact, most gang cases are like that. In Los Angeles, we only solve about 50 to 60% of our murders. And, but we probably know who did it 90% of the time. - Yeah.

- So it is definitely a case of, it's not what you know, it's what you can prove. - Sure. - And that's a, that's a tall order, sometimes to be able to hold somebody accountable

beyond a reasonable doubt. - Do you ever just wanna get back in? Do you ever in case to show somebody, I mean, like, that's trying to get out, but they brought me back.

Like, are you gonna be living in the houseboat? - I'm gonna come back. (laughing) - That's not me, man. (laughing)

That's most certainly not me.

The day I left was the day I never looked back.

- Yeah, my dad was a copy set the same. I don't want to respond to you. I don't want to respond to the ability ever again. - One, yeah. - Yeah, this might just be my own personal judgment.

And if I'm wrong, please tell me, but why doesn't seem like LAPD

“isn't really concerned with solving Biggie's murder?”

- That's a fair question. And I don't think that, you know, this is a massive agency with hundreds and hundreds of unsolved murders. And I don't think that there,

maybe there's a sense of indifference because it's just another murder victim to an agency like that. And they had already spent, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars,

not only trying to solve it, but defending themselves against the false accusations of their involvement. And so, you know, it was an exhausted case. Investigators did just about everything they could.

And even though internally, everybody perceives the case is being solved, the district attorney won't file charges which allows us to officially solve it because of the complexity of you got a baby mama

who is not going to testify, who's got perjury issues in her past. And she's the only person that can point the finger it should, who's alive. So it's an impossible case to try to prosecute

and without the DA, it will never be a closed case.

- But we know, but we know who did it. That's wild. - It's wild. - Yeah, that's not better known. - What do you think it's because also known like all the main players are dead?

So the guys are dead, like you got a couple of people that are left that are involved, but maybe it's like, well, the guy who pulled the trigger is already dead, then what we even care even though

you're really trying to create closure for the family. That's kind of like one aspect of it, right? And then, or is it also probably looks good to clear it? - I don't mind. - Yeah, and I agree with you. I think they ought to.

I think that they ought to, you know, just say, we know what we know based on what we know,

- Yeah. - In the notebooks.

- Get it off the books and I agree with you 100%. This was a very closed conspiracy in the sense that there's only three people, the shooter, the intermediary, which is the girl in Shug. The shooter's dead, the girl has limited immunity

and Shug is already in jail for murder. So, what are you really doing with that? You're not gonna go make a deal with Shug, like, hey, we'll give you some consideration on the murder case that you're convicted of.

If you'll tell us about another murder that you did. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, very difficult. How do we prepare ourselves for the upcoming war of Taylor Swift versus the rest of us?

(laughing) How do we stop this? How do we stop it now?

- Before she becomes the emperor she believes she is.

- Oh my gosh, I just came from Kansas and I stayed with some friends in Kansas City and we were talking about Taylor and her notability, you know, no variety in Kansas City now. And I guess her and Travis had just bought this property

behind a big Catholic church down the road from where I stayed and if you get in the right position evidently, you know, a bunch of looking loose and other people are trying to figure out 'cause they just bought in a house there

together and have it out late. - I don't know if I should be saying this. (laughing)

“- You know, I feel like that's where they live right?”

- One in houses, I'm sure. - Yeah, yeah, she lives in a floating, she lives in space. She could live anywhere. - She bought Elsa's ice cast.

- She could come to me and buy my house for me and live in my house if she wanted it. - Against my will. - She's already cloned herself and frozen herself for the future.

- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's gonna be performing on tour. Now, as someone who worked so tightly in this case, this is gonna seem silly as a question to ask but I have to ask some curious if you would think,

is there any chance of a beef today like with Kendrick Lamar and Drake getting blown out of proportion like something that happened back then or has everyone learned their lesson?

- Most certainly, they have it. Learn their lesson. All you have to Google is dead rappers. - Oh, yeah.

- It's a never-ending list, you know,

and it goes forever and it's consistent. There's just rappers just keep getting killed because of their affiliation with people on the streets. - Have you done any research into the Chicago sub?

There's like a hip hop movement that is essentially guys bragging about murders that they've done that it's not fake. It's legitimately, they are murdering to rap about it. - Whoa.

“- You should honestly, it is a fascinating sub-hip hop”

that is like, I'm looking up the name of it right now. That is very, very, very intense, that is, but it's, they get really, it's like, they are purposely taking the sort of pretend out of it and doing it for real because they want to be able to,

it's not ice cube-retten poetry, like, it's not. It's drill rap, that's what it's called, G-R-I-R-R. - It's really rap, drill. So it is fascinating, but there's a world of that that's also happening where it's like,

they've just decided to just do this in this kind of one little world of music. - Right, wow, and you wonder where that's gonna lead to, is it gonna be a passing sad because all of these guys are gonna get convicted because of their songs

or their simply confessions in real life? - I do think of revenge, wow. - Yeah, eventually, enough will be arrested that I think it will stop the genre because if you arrest each one, eventually,

they just are rapping in jail. - Yeah, eventually. - That'll be such a great court procedure to watch where the defendant is sitting there

“and they're playing his song, and that's what's, you know,”

his song, the jurors just going like, "Ooh, he-he-he-he." Oh, I'm dead, God damn. (laughing) I mean, you say that, but I mean, isn't that what they're gonna be doing with KVD? Once his case comes up in November?

- Yeah, as it stands, all of the evidence against him is his own statements. And it's gonna be a really interesting trial to watch, if it goes to trial because I'm not familiar with anything like this other than, excuse me,

and you guys remember the jinx? - Yeah, yeah, yes. - Right, with Robert Durst where he, you know, has a hot mic and he talks about, "I kill them all." - Yeah.

- And then they use that as evidence against him in his own trial. - Oh, yeah. - Oh, yeah. - This is so much more, like this is just so much more

and doing podcasts and telling the world intentionally that he was a murderer. - Yeah. - As opposed to Robert Durst who unintentionally said it without knowing that his microphone was hot.

- Yeah, I mean, he, it's a memoir. He had to go to a ghost writer and tell him the story. And I had to go through multiple editing rounds and they're like, "Brews, all of that." And still, like, do you have any idea

how he's gonna try to spin this into a not guilty play? - Right as it stands, his defense is that he did it all for entertainment that he lied to us in 2009 when he confessed, he lied to Las Vegas PD in 2009

when he was, did a second proper interview with them

and that, you know, he's gonna say it was all lies and that he was just doing it to make money. None of that really holds water because when he's talking to the cops on different occasions back in 2009,

there's no promise of making any money. That is all perceived as being confidential information. - Yeah, oh yeah, and especially when they cut to the video footage of him confessing where he's got, like, sunglasses on

and he's super happy about it. Like he's super, super invested in the story. (laughing) Nobody loves KPD, like KPD.

“- No, he really does, and he, but I think it's,”

it's good for people to see though. I do think that as we go along in society, there's gonna be more and more of this style of, you went out of podcasts and told everybody exactly what you did.

Like I feel like it's gonna happen a lot. - Yeah. - It's good for the genre. It's good for podcasting. - It is.

(laughing) Now with all this stuff going on with Puffy right now, do you think that any of, you know, two-pox murder will be thrown into this trial or they're just gonna keep it all out of this?

You mean Biggie's murder getting thrown into two-pox trial? - No, two-pox murder getting thrown into Puffy's trial. - Coming up. - Oh, yeah, okay, I got you, I'm sorry. Not really, I think they'll keep everything

really compartmentalized. If he has human trafficking issues, those will stay compartmentalized, unless the feds back in New York do a very comprehensive racketeering investigation where they are trying

to incorporate just all types of different crimes over a long history of time. But even with that, I just don't see anybody making official allegations against Ditty

“for two-pox murder with based only on key feedes confession.”

- Right, yes. Wasn't there a situation where Puffy daddy allegedly offered $1 million for the murder of Shognite and two-pox? And then apparently he paid 500,000 to the drug dealer

in New York, Zip. Like, is there something in like, and then key feede didn't get his cut? Is that like, that is like a rumor I heard about,

I don't know what the truth is to that.

Also, Zip's a great name for a drug dealer. - Yes, sure. - Yeah. - Who wants a nightclub called Zip code? - That's great. (laughs)

- Yeah, no, I know, that's pretty clever. So we, there's two questions there in both are actually true but they're separate. So you've got the thing with key feede. - Puffy offered a million dollars

for the murder of two-pox and Shognite, correct? - Yeah, yes. - And then he, after two-pox was killed, he gave 500,000 to Zip who was supposed to give that,

“who was supposed to broker the deal with key feede”

is one of the-- - Correct. - And so, how do we, you know, how do you not pin that on Puffy? - Got you, okay. So I got a little sidetracked there

because way back when back in the late '90s, there was a guy that worked for Puffy who filed a lawsuit against him. His name, my thing, his name was Kirk Burroughs. He was a producer and he had filed a lawsuit against Puffy

and in his lawsuit he claimed that back then, Puffy had solicited for one million dollars to hit on two-pox Shakur. And then that case got settled out of court for a certain amount of money.

And so that was interesting for us as Johnny come lately investigators and we're listening to key feede talk about a million dollar bounty on a hit. Somebody was already saying that 10 years before

in a different civil lawsuit. So it ended some legitimacy to what key feede was claiming. Now the second part of that being this thing was zip. Zip's dead as you know. And whether or not that money was ever paid,

we've never been able to identify a paper trail.

because only half the job was done

because they didn't kill should. We don't know, it's just an urban legend that could be true, but we just don't have any evidence to say it's true.

“- Oh man does that mean the bounty still out on chug?”

(laughing) - Whoa! (laughing) 'Cause I bet he could lose. He could look for somebody clean up some problems

for him right now. (laughing) - But if chug killed himself to collect the bounty. - Oh yes. (laughing)

- This gives it to the chug. (laughing) - Here's your inheritance. (laughing)

- I mean, I am really interested.

I feel like what we're seeing now, like I know we keep come back to Ditty just because this is just gonna be such a big story. It's really, and it's all connected to all of these guys. I actually wonder how many of these other people

from these stories are gonna pop up in Ditty's trial. Like when you, some of these same characters are gonna come out and I wonder what that's,

“who's all gonna end up being a part of his system or not?”

- And who's still alive? - Yeah, I think there's gonna be some artists that are gonna be in a real precarious situation that are gonna have to come out and say yes, I was a victim of some type of inappropriate sexual coercion.

- Yes. - Yeah. In order to get the kind of promotion that I needed, I think there's gonna be some artists that are not wanting the truth to come out

because it reflects so badly on all. - Very much. - Yeah. - 'Cause I think they're all underaged. - Oh, very much, yeah.

- Do you think there's any weight to the rumor that Ditty had anything to do with orchestrating the murder of Biggie? - No, I don't believe any of that's true at all. I think that this is straight retaliation

that Shugnight hired a guy that he knew would do it. He was extremely upset about the fact that Tupac was shot and killed. He himself almost got killed. Death Row was circling the drain at this point

because they lost Tupac, Shug was in jail. And so he just did what he would, he just took matters into his own hand and had a gangster do what gangsters do. The idea that Puffy being involved in Biggie's murder

is it just doesn't hold any water. There's nothing to support that conspiracy theory. - Well, let's go back a little bit. I'm really interested in that 10-day war that you talked about after Tupac like,

what did that look like? What happened? - Well, as soon as Tupac was shot in Las Vegas, Shugnight and the rest of his blood entourage, all got together and they knew immediately

who it was. They knew, hey, those are the south side grips, that was Kiffy D and his crew. So when they get back to Los Angeles to Compton and the following day, it's on.

It's the green light, you know, it's the, they're all going to go to war. And so for 10 days, Crips, you know, a south side crips, he's a mob-pyru or a looter's park-pyru,

they're gonna shoot on site and vice versa. So the Crips got all of their hardware, all their guns, you know, collected and began to go on the defensive 'cause they know that the bloods are gonna be hunted and them down.

And so you listen to some of the Crips gang members who came forward and told their stories, they're like, man, it was a war zone. You know, we knew if we stood out on the street, a car was gonna come drive and buy

and we're gonna get shot at. So we all had to kind of hunker down and, you know, congregate together so that we had, you know, the power and numbers. And it just went on and on until finally,

after 10 days, the Compton PD and about 400 other officers from other agencies just started to raid all of the houses to get all the guns and just tried to quail the gun, you know, to quail the violence.

And that kind of mitigated a lot of what was happening. But, you know, it was still on as far as, you know,

until it never ends down there, you know,

these beasts just never end. You're a blood on the Crips, we're going at it. - Now, with the murder of Biggie Smalls, like you said that this woman was an intermediary, like what kind of intent,

“like how, what was her role in the murder of Biggie Smalls?”

- So she had a long history of criminal complicity which she was the mother of one of his children. She was this kind of a, for lack of a better term, kind of like a hood girl.

that, and she loved sheug.

And of course, she was always competing

with all the other girls in Sheug's life. And so she thought if she could be the one who's really down for him, she's the girl that will do anything, right or die type of girl. And so she was complicit and, you know,

helping him get an illegal gambling license in Las Vegas for the club. She was involved in a bunch of auto frauds. She was involved in his bankruptcy fraud. She was involved in a bunch of white collar stuff with him.

And so when she went to jail after the beating

“in Las Vegas, 'cause remember he was involved”

in stomping in Orlando Anderson down at the MGM, he gets his probation violated. He goes to jail for that. So when sheug's in jail, he can't really communicate with anybody

without it being monitored.

Now if you have visitors, you're on the phone, but the deputies can listen to your phone calls. They can listen to your phone calls with people outside of the jail. And so they come up with this clever plan

where sheug nights attorney, a guy named David Kenner signs paperwork saying, "All of these individuals "are part of my legal team." And therefore, they fall under the privilege of attorney-client communications.

You can't listen to them. So David Kenner writes letters, allowing people like Shug's girlfriend to come in as a legal aid. And the deputies can't monitor.

“And that allows her and Shug to have a private conversation.”

And this is what she tells us.

This is how she's explaining how they did this.

She says, "I was able to go in there. "We could have unmonitored visits. "Shug told me he wanted Biggie shot." He wanted Biggie taking care of. He said, "Reach out to Poochie.

"Go find Poochie, tell him, I'll give him whatever he wants. "She comes back, she talks to Shug." She says, "He wants this much money." Shug says, "I'll make them, you know, "I'll make sure you get the money.

"He does, he secures cash for her. "She pays Poochie, and then Poochie shows up and kills Biggie. "So she's the person who's communicating "between Shug and the shooter." - It makes me so sad that Biggie Smalls

was killed by a man named Poochie. - Yeah, he didn't deserve that. Really didn't. - No, it's Poochie 'cause it's also,

“someone said it went a bit of a member of the nation”

of Islam, or is that just like how Poochie dressed when he did the killing? - I know there's a conspiracy theory that's been completely disproven, but within that conspiracy theory, they thought that a guy named Amir Mohamed was the shooter

because the shooter supposedly was dressed up with a, how to bow tie on. And so this led to people connecting the dots, all these circumstantial dots, forming the collusion that it was a nation of Islam guy that shot and killed Biggie.

Even though that's been disproven, the next thing is, well, why were people describe in the shooter as having a bow tie? And our explanation of that is that gangsters in Los Angeles were notorious for doing things

that would mislead the police. We had gangsters in Los Angeles dressing up in the garb of the nation of Islam. And doing home invasion robberies because you get people unsuspecting thinking,

"Oh, this is the guy at the front door." He's a nation of Islam guy selling bean pies. He's soliciting money for this cause. They open the door next to you, they're just gangsters, they Russian, and they're robbing it.

So it was not uncommon for people to dress up in order to mislead the police. In fact, in Los Angeles during this period of time, when blood gang members would do a drive by against trips or against any other enemies,

they'd often yell out the name of like a trip gang. They'd be like, "Oh, mainstream trips." Even though their blood's because when the cops get there and the witness to say, "Hey, they drove by and they yelled out." And so it's just this relatively clever way

of deflecting attention. - That's really interesting. - Yeah, it was very common too. And so when we'd get there and they'd say, "Yeah, some guys drove by and, you know, bloodstone villains."

That's a blood gang, really. I mean, it's nothing to us, because it's probably grips. - Wow, that's interesting. - Oh, Greg, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you taking the time.

- Yeah, thank you for letting us pick your brain. - Yeah, do you have any other projects coming up that you'd like to plug? - Yeah, I'm working on a couple of things. - You guys remember back in 2013 when there was an L.A.

- Oh, yeah.

- "Never put Dornner in a corner."

- Oh, wow. - Yeah. (laughing) - Yeah, the tank corner of the Dornner. - Oh, good. - No, that's, I had a problem. (laughing)

- Yeah, I got you, man. - Yeah, I was trying to get that story off. - Yeah, I didn't come out. - That's story,

“'cause I think it's a really timely story.”

- Yeah, it's good one. - It's very interesting, actually. - We read his manifesto. He was one of the, we did an episode on manifesto killers

and he was one of the first ones you kind of read it.

And it was like, he's got some points in here. - But most of the time he's a total great, you know. - He didn't do it right, just a little much people. - You're able to kill the bunch of people. - It's not good, and as far as you know,

the only manifesto that has a shoutout section. - Yep, yes. - That's right, a whole of, yeah, an extended shoutout section, which is weird and an enough itself. - Greg, thank you so much, man.

- Yeah, my pleasure, you guys.

“I apologize for my voice, I'm fighting the cold”

or some allergies or something.

So hopefully you can clean that up. - Yeah, we're fine. - Get some my from back to menu, you'll be fine. - There you go, some hydrochloroquine. (all laughing)

The Trump cocktail, I'm out of here. - I'm a straight plea choice works for me. (all laughing) - I'm not playing. - What an incredibly nice man.

- You know, especially for XLA PD, he's a nice man. - Yeah. - And he was very knowledgeable, very like, this whole story is, I get saddened. - No, it really is, because it is the case of,

you know, these were a couple of artists. - Yeah. - Yeah, you know, two-pock was a fucking theater kid. - I know, he was in musicals. - Yeah, but then he, you know,

then he sucker punched the gangster. - Don't do that. - Yeah, but you know, he just don't do that. Don't try to, like, just don't try to impress your friends with that, just, just be yourself.

- If you're engaging with gangsters, I say the only way to fight them, is through dance. - All right, she was good at it. - They have rap battles for a reason. - That's right.

- So, settle your disputes, gentlemen, and some of you ladies with the microphone. - That's right.

“- I think at the only way, it's not cool to go to jail, all right?”

That's the thing I heard, it wasn't true, to be arrested for murder. - Yes, for this. - Please go see us at patreon.com/laspacastonlove to see video visions of these episodes,

follow us on the socials at lpion. The left-on TikTok and Instagram. - Watch all of our shows at twitch.tv/lpntvgossieTheHoopaGoGoGameHoopaGoGoGameHGX2. - Yeah, that's right on YouTube, watch the replay, and it's gonna be coming to you regularly,

by weekly in September. - Yeah, wait. - You've been listening to serious XM. You're welcome. (laughing)