No Dogs in Space: New York Dolls Pt I

(upbeat music)

Part of me thinks like we could just fuck it.

“You know what? Part of me thinks we could just start too.”

And just be like goddammit, hey we're back. Yeah, why don't we talk about being back? This is our first episode back. Yes it is. Okay, um, so why don't we talk about being back?

Because this is our first episode back. Yeah, let's do that. Let's talk about this being our first episode back. Our first episode in year, some of my thoughts. So much has happened. Has it?

Yeah, well, I mean not to us. I mean, like other people, I'm sure the world current events. Uh, but yes, uh, and we are back. And we are doing, of course,

but we always want to do, which is punk.

Punk 2.0 that is in gentleman. We're fucking here. My name is Marcus Parks. This is no dogs in space. We are here for punk 2.0.

“We're starting it off with the band that people have asked us to do.”

Oh, so many times. So we've told the story bits and pieces here and there. But we're finally going to tell it in a massive four parts series starting today. That's right. I'm Carolina Hidalgo. Uh, some call me Carolina Danger Hidalgo.

Certain doctors offices know me as that. Uh, and I am also here with you today to talk about this. We are telling the story in four parts. And that is it that is all I'm contractually obligated to do or that that I want to do. There's a, there's a possibility we might have a point five here.

We might. This is possibility. It might, it might be a replacement type of situation because this story, uh,

the more I look into it like that this story just crosses with so many other amazing, uh,

movements in New York City that were happening in the early 70s. There is so much meat to this story. Uh, there's a lot of meat on this bone. All right. So let's start two. I was about to say like, let's do it now. Let's go now.

Yeah. Now one can make the argument that this band was the greatest rock and roll group to ever exist. Not the best, definitely not the most talented, but the greatest. Yes. They were a band who distilled the music in the attitude down to its very essence.

During not only their performances and their records, but also in the way they lived every hour of their lives for better or worse. Created by five kids from each of the outer boroughs that's Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and the Bronx all four are represented. This band rode the wave of chaos created by the decay of early 70s Manhattan.

They absorbed and translated the city's dirt, sleaze, crime, trash, and utter insanity, as well as its art and culture into pure rock and roll. This band's body of work was a collage born of intuition and good taste,

which combined the sonic screams of first generation rock and roll guitarists,

like Bo Didley and Eddie Cochran, with the confidence and attitude of the 1960s girl pop groups. I love how you put that together. That's what this band is. And finally, they just sprinkled the whole mixture with a dash of British glam.

Oh, yes, definitely. But even though their taste was impeccable, their actual talent was not on the same level. They were the archetype of the punk band that didn't give a fuck about precision. Hell, half the time their instruments weren't even in tune. You kids don't know how lucky you are with these electric guitar tuners,

but that wasn't even close to the point. For this group, it was their energy and passion that inspired countless others in first New York City and then the world to think, if these assholes can do it, what the fuck am I waiting for? That's right, if those assholes could do it, anybody could do it.

Yeah, these five New Yorkers had actually tapped into a vitality that they themselves couldn't keep up with. And as such, it's been said by the Old New York Seencers that this group peaked before they even signed a record contract. Oh, my god, that is so hipster.

That is so New York. Yeah, I loved them before they started a band.

“You should've seen them in elementary school.”

They were awesome. Yeah, they were cool then. Well, amongst that scene though, this band started a revolution without even trying. It was expression as infection. It was DIY at its most fabulous because if you know nothing about this band,

their fashion sense was sickening. First, Dustin, New York was gagged, Mama. Yes, I loved it. I loved it all. Yeah, and we're going to be getting deep into the drags in New York City

starting next week. But these five men dressed as women or at least dressed highly femme. I would say highly femme.

Highly femme, they did that because it was their instinct to do so.

And by doing that, they personified the idea that in New York City,

you can be whatever the fuck you want.

“And if you hit the same sweet spot, these boys hit,”

you can have more fun than you ever thought possible. Now, while the band wasn't deeds straight, they dressed, acted, and presented themselves to the world in a way that was far more drag than glam, at least in our opinion. But that's not to say that a feminine edge or drag elements were new and rock and roll. People forget that some of the earliest rock stars were extremely flamboyant.

There's a good reason why, in an episode of RuPaul's Drag Race, a drag queen Kennedy Davenport was able to surprise everyone by doing an excellent, and filthy, drag and interpretation of the famously filthy little richer. I loved it so much. I can't even do it justice.

It's one of the best stats game performances ever. But where the British glam boys the time were foppish pop and jays. This bad excuse me, Frazier? What? I'm sorry, giles. I thought this pop and jays.

Yeah, I would describe the British glam. I think you didn't bow his father.

“Where are these foppish pop and jayers, right in it?”

Lips through fall for my hand. This is bricks too. But while the British boys were, I stand by it. Foppish pop and jays. This band is one author put it.

They took the glam at a glam rock, and they made it cedar, and far more threatening. To me, that means they made it more American. And I think this band really does represent what America is supposed to be in more ways than one. For example, two of the founding members of this band

were first generation immigrants from Egypt and Colombia. And in my opinion, one of the things that makes America special is natural born shitheads collaborating with wild,

imaginative immigrants to create something revolutionary.

Definitely. I mean, look at us. You look at us, you head and imaginative. Okay, yeah, I guess I did kind of walk in the ecology. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But as an African, but as an often goes here in America,

the people who represent its purest ideals with the most intensity are the same people who get pushback from the cowards who are definitely afraid of what freedom actually means. And this band was certainly a victim of this paradox. So while we look at the cover of this band's

groundbreaking debut album with a whole band is dressed in maximum drag. And think, "Buck yeah, I want to hear that record." These musicians could have been arrested for female impersonation in 1973. If that photo shoot had been done in the wrong state.

And furthermore, the music contained in this record was certainly rock and roll, but it was also camping. And it was also feminine. All this put together, coded this band's debut as gay to a lot of radio DJs, who were also probably a little freaked out by their own sexual reaction

to the luscious lips of lead singer David Johansson. That's right, in our own generation, we had a similar thing, not just in drag, but a lot of people thought the members of Henson were girls. And there was a bit of confusion there as well. That there was, but it did nothing to stop and bot

from being played every 10 minutes on the radio. We came a long way. We have come a long way. Bop, really. And you know, sometimes it does.

Feel like we're a million miles away from that sort of bullshit.

Radio DJs freaking out over guys where in makeup and dresses in a photo shoot is a far cry from where we are today. We're the most popular show on MTV by far is an actual drag competition that's in what season 17 I'd least and then it's all over the world too. Yeah, yeah, Australia. I mean, we've seen them all.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we had all the 11 seasons, all stars, tedious. It's gotten very tedious, but it's massive. It's huge. But as we all know, there are plenty of assholes today who want to bring the days of old back. These are people who either don't know the meaning of the kind of reckless abandon

our band today represented or they understand it's power completely. And it scares them to their cowardly core. She's one member of this band put it. Every generation finds something intriguing about this band. And I think that's certainly true.

So maybe in order to move into the future we need to look into the past.

“And I think that every single one of us can find something inspiring about the total freedom,”

the aggressive rebellion and the utter chaos that was the New York Doll. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we can't take it this way.

It concerns the one and the best way.

You can hear all the chaos and fun. Yeah, so much fucking fun. That's what this band was all about, so much fun. Produced by Todd Rungren, like it's fucking such a good album. I know, Todd was part of the fun. Yeah, forced to talk about Todd Rungren again, again, Star Will.

“I don't, I think he's fine. I have no problem with him.”

Well, let me read more about him. Anyway, let's, but first, let's get started on our

sources, right? Our main book sources are first of all too much too soon. The makeup breakup of the New York Dolls by Nina Antonia, as well as there's no bones in ice cream, silvenile vein story of the New York Dolls by silvenile vein with Dave Thompson. Because there's no bones in ice cream, it's one of the best rock bios that I've read in years. Love it. So good. And also, we also use Johnny Thunder's Incold Blood,

the official biography by Nina Antonia again. And then there was trash. The complete New York Dolls by Chris Needs and Dick Porter, we used that for extra details.

All of these books have different accounts of what's basically the same kind of story.

“And I have to say I've worked really hard and done my best to read all of these books”

and check out plenty of interviews and articles online and make some hard and some not so hard editorial decisions on who's telling the truth. So we're going to do the best we can here. And I will give the complete list of sources at the end of the series as well as we're going to post it on our Instagram, no docs. Yeah, I would say not since the studios have we had to make so many judgments on what is true and what is probably true and what might be true.

We spent a whole afternoon talking about if Johnny Thunder's lied about one thing that's an afternoon. Okay, what's the thing that Iggy Pop and Johnny Thunder shared that makes the truth so difficult. We'll find out. It's heroin. Mark it. Okay, so let's get started with the story of the New York Dolls from New York. And except we're actually going to start with Sylvain

“Sylvain, the guitarist and co-founder of the New York Dolls who actually isn't originally from”

New York. Sylvain was born Sylvain Mizrahi on Valentine's Day 1951 in Cairo Egypt. Yeah, he's Egyptian by birth, but his mother was of Syrian descent and his father's family were from Turkey, but they all spoke French. No, I'm not sure why, but according to Sylvain, that was the primary language for many Jewish Middle Eastern people at that time. And Sylvain, he spent his childhood in Cairo in a very upper class. I would say downright wealthy family, a nice penthouse

apartment with a car and chauffeur, the works, everything. But Sylvain wasn't like he wasn't a fancy kid. He wasn't a richie rich. All he cared about at that time as a young boy was going to the movies and watching Western American singing cowboy movies. We couldn't get him away from that. Like movie starring Roy Rogers, which apparently he was an actual singing cowboy. Yeah, a real girl. Yeah, I drive through the Roy Rogers Memorial interchange every day between the office and home.

I forget that I hold my breath in for a minute every time we do that. So anyway, Sylvain, he loved watching the singing cowboys sit on their horses while playing their guitar

and I guess fixing fences. Yeah. And that's all cowboys trust me. I've never seen a singing

cowboy movie. Well, actually, no, the three amigos. Yes. I mean, that's more Mexican-American Canadian, singing cowboy movie. But you know, she'll be coming around the mountain when they come. That's right, Newman. That's okay. That's a singing push movie, but still. Okay, that's Sylvain back to Sylvain. Pretty soon after a few cowboy movies, Sylvain is like at this point he's dying for a guitar, right? He's a little kid. He wants to play like his hero Roy Rogers. And

after lots of begging and insisting and being really annoying about it, Sylvain's father finally gets him an oot. Yes, not a guitar. Oh, I'll get an oot. And Sylvain's dad is like a wealthy banker. It's not like he couldn't afford it. But hey, it's in Egypt, you get a new. Yeah, yeah, you want to think with strings that makes noise, you get a new. Yes, it's an Arabic type of guitar. It's totally not a guitar, but it's what Sylvain has got to work with, basically.

Which is cool, but then unfortunately in 1956 Sylvain's singing cowboy dreams kind of washed away

When an international conflict changed the course of five year old Sylvain's ...

And that conflict was the Swiss canal crisis. Yeah, it affected a lot of people.

“So many singing cowboy dreams were swept away by the Swiss canal crisis. That's why there's a”

singing cowboy shortage to the state. But the Swiss canal crisis, it's extremely complicated.

But basically, the Egyptian dictator Gamal Adel Nasser, nationalized the Swiss canal in 1956,

which took ownership of the canal away from French and British interest. The French in British, therefore planned military action to retake the canal impossibly deposed Nasser in the process. This is what Israel got involved in the operation because Nasser had been behind anti-Israeli blockades and raids and Israel had every reason to want Nasser deposed. So Israel led the attack against Egypt in 1956, but when the operation got bogged down,

the coalition withdrew from Egypt after just a few months. With the coalition's withdrawal, Nasser could claim victory against the colonial powers. That's true, he won a political war.

“Like they loved him for it. Massive, massive, massive political win for him. This led to a massive increase”

in both Egyptian nationalism and because Israel was involved anti-Semitism all across Egypt. And since Sils Dad was working in a bank that used the British pound, this is how granular it all got. Neither of these things were good news for the Mizrahi family's future in Egypt. Yeah, Sils Vain's dad lost his job when the bank he was working at for 25 years was nationalized. So Sils Vain's family, as well as other Jewish families in communities, they couldn't go out

shopping or walking down the streets without being harassed or being called nasty names. Like you said, Marcus, like nationalism was taking over. It felt that dangerous to not be born and bred Egyptian at that time or not be Jewish for that matter. And Sils Vain and his family were Jewish. I mean, his grandfather was a rabbi. Yeah. That's that's pretty Jewish. Sils Jewish, as you get absolutely. So soon the money was running out. So Sils Vain's parents,

you know, they were very smart about this. They started making clothes in their living room to make ends meet. And these people were rich, at least until very recently they were rich. But they were also very hard working. So Sils Vain's parents took out some books on sewing and started making shirts and pants on their diving room table, their fancy rooms and their fancy apartment became like a work room to make and sell clothes to just get by. Money was scarce,

but then when food started becoming scarce, Sils Vain's family decided it was time to leave Egypt for good. So after months of writing letters to every foreign embassy they could think of, they finally got one response from France. Yeah, because it could be French. Yeah, that's well, that actually did help. Yes. And by Sils Vain's eighth birthday, he and his family had settled in a small apartment on, I'm sorry about this, Rue Cadet in Paris. Yeah, exactly. It spells Cadet,

but it's Rue Cadet. So within like a little over a year, they went from living in a penthouse luxury apartment in Cairo to a single room hotel with nothing but a bucket to wash in. The toilet was down the hall. Jesus. It was one of those and there were four of them. Yeah. And then they had a baby. They were five of them at some point. Yes. Three kids, two adults. And this is all definitely germane to the New York Doll story. Oh, absolutely, because Sils Vain's in his autobiography,

he does say he remembers Rue Cadet as a crowded smelly, rat-infested, gross-estreet. But there was the Foley Burjé. Right? Foley Burjé. Yes. Where's your? The Foley Burjé. That's right. Little Sils Vain lived right around the corner of Paris's most famous cabaret hall.

“Well, I think the most the second most famous because the Mulan Rouge. That's number one. Let's”

number one. Okay, catch. Catch. I've seen the movie and we all know this. So anyway, the Foley Burjé

was a sight to the world. It was. It was a sight to behold. I mean, so they never went inside

because he was eight, nine years old, right? But he would stand at the door like the side door where the truck would like pull up and unload dozens of costumes, feathers, sequins, and most beautiful sentence. It was the first time Sils Vain had ever been exposed to glitz and glamour. This is art. This is expression. This is full of sequins. My God. Very shiny fabrics. Of course, a child would love this. Yeah. Hell, I would love this. I would do. And this is important because Sils Vain said

that when the New York Dolls were first starting, that was exactly what Sils was thinking of. The feathers and sequins in the Foley Burjé. I said so confidently. Sils Vain was mesmerized by

the shiny fabrics and glitter. I mean, who is it? But he ended up never going to the Foley Burjé

Because by the time he was like 10, 11 years old, Sils Vain and his family le...

opportunity in America. Yes, finally Sils Vain and his family touched down in New York City in

1962 and he immediately fell in love with it. Sils Vain loved all of it. The feel and smell of the streets, the energy, the gunpowder volatility of it all. It was raw and a bit gross. Sure, but New York City had character. And Sils Vain even said for the first time since I'd left

“Cairo Egypt, I felt like I belonged somewhere because that's what it's supposed to be here.”

The feeling that wherever you come from, you belong. Yeah. That's New York. That's America. Yeah, not only can you belong, but you can do anything. Absolutely. Anything is possible. Now, when the Sils Vain family finally landed in the Outer Burrows, so quickly discovered the reason why so many members of the future punk scene who survived the chaos of Manhattan in the 70s, he discovered why those guys were from the Outer Burrows, why they were from Brooklyn in Queens.

See, before his family settled in Queens, Sils first lived in Brooklyn where violence and

actual fist fights were a normal part of life for both genders. Sils said he actually knew a girl who hid razor blades in her beehive to slice up the hands of any girl who tried grabbing a fistful of hair during the scuffle. That's actually kind of smart. It's incredibly smart, but it's also wildly violent. Yeah, that was in the silence of the lamp. The sequel in the beginning of the movie with Julien Moore. Really? Yeah. Yeah. They're like, "Oh, watch out if you touched her head

because it wasn't in the 1960s. It was a sequel that was poorly made." Yes, it was. Except for the end when the he ate Ray Leo does bring. That was actually very cool. I wish that was the whole... Yeah, I was about to say that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, Sils certainly had to deal with a fair amount of xenophobia and racism in Brooklyn and Queens. Trust me, Queens ate the paradise that everyone thinks

it is. But he found refuge in the incredible music that permeated the boroughs throughout the early

'60s. Sils partly absorbed this music through the jubox at the bowling alley across the street from his school. The songs that he heard on that jubox would make up the musical DNA of not just silsovane, but every New York doll. And while each of them would discover these songs in their own way, it was the bowling alley where Sils fell in love with the girl groups of the early '60s.

“Cannot be overstated how important these fantastic groups are to the New York dolls and to punk”

in general. Now, in my opinion, the way that every member of the dolls idolize these girl groups from a young age probably made them a lot more comfortable, exploring their feminine sides later on. But even though their later pension for women's clothing would make people assume they were gay, the band dressed the way they did, mostly because the girls they liked responded to it positively. And their love for girl groups ran on much the same logic. For Sils, the songs that the girl

groups sang had a central edge that he recognized before he even knew what sex was. This was the music that the girls in the bowling alley liked. And later, Sils would say that there was no piece of music sex here in this world than the isolated drunkenness that kicks off the Ronette's classic debut single "Be My Baby." Oh, yes, he was landed it perfectly. ♪ I don't want to say you love me ♪ ♪ I'll make you so proud of you ♪ ♪ We'll make you turn their heads ♪

♪ Every place we go so far ♪ ♪ And we keep on ♪

“♪ We keep on baby, I wanna hold it home ♪”

♪ Say you need that door, hold it home ♪ ♪ We keep on baby now ♪ ♪ We keep on baby ♪ - Oh, yeah. - Where's my hairbrush? (laughs)

- Yeah, maybe a Ronnie Spectre series, sometime in the future. - Absolutely. - Sometimes, somewhere somehow, God, I love, I just, I, the girl groups, I love, it's one of my favorite genres out there. I love it.

No one thing to keep in mind about the New York Dolls was that they were a young band. Most were just barely out of their teens when they started. So, like the Ramones, the Dolls formed their first connections to each other when they were still just kids.

Still so vain continued to adapt to Queens as the sixties continued, dodging bullies, fallen in love with them near every British invasion band

That came along, and every once in a while,

buying cough syrup for neighborhood heroin addicts

“at their request, because he didn't know any better.”

- Well, you really buried the lead with that one. (laughs) - He was doing all these, you romanticized on that. - Yeah, falling in love with listening to the kinks and buying cough syrup for heroin addict.

- There can't. (laughs) - But when Celle reached junior high,

he finally found a friend that he could not only vibe with,

but this is a kid who is an immigrant, just like Celle. The relationship did, however, began in a very 1960s Queens manner. - Yeah, Queens, baby. Remember, I'm originally from Queens.

- I remember. - I was born in Queens. Unfortunately, unfortunately, I don't know. I moved from Queens after being born six weeks later. So, I wasn't able to be raised in Queens

like all these fun people, but this is interesting. This was really fun. So, Vane went to Van Wick Middle School where he had to deal, like you said, bullies, people picking on him.

- Sylvain Mizrahi, though he did manage to make a friend. A best friend, one day at school, an older kid went up to Sylvain at lunch and said, "You're gonna fight my brother today or else. Be there.

Three p.m. Why?

- No, it's just, you're gonna fight my brother today

or else be there. Three p.m. - He's a Colombian immigrant. Why aren't you just doing your natural accent? - I am not, I'm not gonna, okay, okay, okay, okay.

You go off over the mic, my brother. No, no, no, no, I'm so sorry. - Okay, okay, okay. - Let me just do it the curly no way. Can we do the curly no one says a curly no one?

- Yeah. - Okay, you're gonna fight my brother today. Okay, older kid goes to Sylvain. You get to fight my brother, right? And Sylvain thought, "Who was that guy?"

And where is B there? Where is there? And why do I have to fight someone? I don't even know. And Sylvain, you know, he was hesitant.

He's a teenager, he's like 14 at this time, but he wasn't gonna punk out either. - No. - And he's at that age. - Screens.

- So at 3 p.m. Sylvain, who by then found out where there was, which was outside the school, also found out who he was gonna fight, which was that kid's younger brother, Billy. So Sylvain actually recognized him immediately.

Like, "Oh yeah, we have gym class together. "We say high sometimes." And obviously Sylvain didn't want to fight Billy and neither did Billy want to fight Sylvain.

“Like, I think Billy was pushed by his older brother”

Alfonso because I don't know, edification, hazing, toughening him up. - It happens. I was thrown to many small fight clubs by my older brothers growing up.

They like it, it's funny to them. - Wow. - They just, they just really enjoyed it. It's older kids really love making smaller kids fight each other. I can't explain it, but I'm just saying

that I had the exact same experience in rural Texas as these kids had in Queens in 1960, and the 1960s. So let's just go ahead and say it's a universal human thing. - Okay, I just abused my dolls. Like a good sit from Toy Story.

All right, it was all a little different, but that's okay. - I did that too. - And even though I couldn't, at least my action figures. - And even though Sylvain didn't want to fight,

they were gonna fight. There was already a mob of kids around them in a circle chanting fight, fight, fight, fight. - You have to fight. - So since they didn't want to lose face, Sylvain,

and Billy just started dancing around a fighting ring, they would kick up dirt and fake punches until I think

one of them finally threw a punch and connected,

and then they both somehow fell backwards. I'm not sure, but that seems right. - Yeah. - And once the crowd was satisfied, the boys helped each other up and said,

you wanna go? I'll walk you home, so they left.

“And that's how Sylvain met the original drummer”

of the New York Dolls, Billy Murcia. - Yeah, Columbia and immigrant. - Yes, absolutely. There's not a lot of information on Billy Murcia out there. It's actually kind of hard to find stuff about his life

and what he was like and stuff, but I can say with confidence that the few people who have talked about Billy all said that he was friendly, kind, funny, very funny, very energetic, which is good for a drummer.

- He's a drummer. - And most of all, a humble and happy kid. - Yep, he had what we called the drummer's personality. - Yeah, so Billy Murcia, who is from Bogotá, Columbia and the same age as Sylvain at this time,

he moved to America with his family just a year before. They moved to Jamaica, Queens, and that's actually where he and Sylvain would spend countless afternoons jamming together in Murcia's attic.

Billy's parents were very supportive of all their kid's dreams. Even when Billy said, "Mom, dad, I'm gonna be a drummer." And they said, "Great." - It's a hard thing for parents to say, yeah, too. - Yeah, no, they're like, "Fill free the practice, it'll be loud."

- That was really kind of them. - It was. - But then again, Billy also didn't have a drum kit back then,

He just had one snare drum,

and Sylvain had a simple acoustic guitar

that Sylvain's family, his dad finally got him a real guitar.

- No more ood. - Exactly, and yeah, the ood, probably he probably just chucked it off the passenger boat they were on on their way to parents or something. - Yeah, no, there it goes, there it goes.

- But that guitar actually, it lasted as long as the ood,

“I think, because before long Sylvain got his hands on”

an electric guitar and a five-watt amp with a 12-inch speaker, which meant Sylvain and Billy became too loud for Billy's parents household. So they moved there what they call headquarters to the basement parking garage of Sylvain's apartment building.

They could play their all day, with no one bothering them. So it was great. - It's necessary, you truly don't know how bad to 14-year-olds who barely know how to play a guitar and drum sound.

It's awful.

- Yes. - I was one of those 14-year-olds.

It's really bad. - But their headquarters was also not that great. The fumes of the karma flurs. (laughing) They're like, "How are you, I need to see two?"

The lack of heating, the stopping and moving over any time a car would enter the parking lot. (laughing) - Kind of thing. It wasn't sustainable.

So eventually they were able to move their headquarters. All one more time to Billy Murcia's new house, which was bigger, lots of room for borders.

“That's what his parents would do for X-ray and come.”

They would actually rent out rooms in their big house in Queens, which had a big ass basement as well. And they was there that Sylvain Billy would crank up that five-watt amp and play as hard

and as loud as they could. Fingers bleeding and all to just one song, one song over and over again. Why bouts? - Specifically by the ventures.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Now the New York Dolls with later become known is one of the most fashion forward bands in history. But this was not an affectation

that the dolls cynically used to set themselves apart from the rest of the groups in New York. They weren't like, for example, "Kiss,"

who will get into in the second episode.

- They were a Jean Jacket bet when they started. - They weren't. - Let's be forget. - Instead, all the members of the dolls

“had their eyes on fashion from a young age,”

because for them, fashion was another way to express themselves and, of course, if we're being honest, to attract girls. Billy, Marcia, and Sylvain, following the more outlandish trends of 1966,

would go down to Greenwich Village when they were still in high school, just to hang out where in polka dotted shirts, checkered pants, and beatled boots. They looked fucking ridiculous

because they would usually wear almost identical outfits. - Yes, I loved how they made their pants so tight that they would stick their pants like, they would put them inside out, right? And then they would tailor it, really, really tight,

and then put it right back on and you would have to peel it off. - Well, before long, Billy and Sylvain were designing their own clothes when they couldn't find what they wanted in stores. This is fucking DIY in 1966.

Billy's sister and her girlfriends helped them so their designs, while Billy's mom gave in as well, and knitted them whatever they wanted knitting 'cause they were really picking a knits. But Billy and Sylv weren't the only fashion forward kids

at their high school. They noticed another kid out there that was of a similar style to themselves, although this kid was getting far more attention from the ladies.

- Oh, is it pop-seeker? (laughing) - Yeah, he's put on some night moves. - Yeah, he's. - With his jet black hair, this kid.

Birth name Johnny Gonzale was about as Italian as they come. Queen's threw in through and all the best and all of the worst ways. History, however, would know this kid better as Johnny Thunder's.

Eventually, we get to our rest for the New York Dolls, and one of Punks greatest guitar heroes. (upbeat music) ♪ Johnny Thunder lives on water ♪ ♪ He's on the night ♪

♪ He's on the night ♪ ♪ Johnny Thunder don't need no words ♪ ♪ Don't want money ♪ (upbeat music)

♪ All the people like the town ♪

♪ They can't get through to Johnny ♪

♪ They will never ever break their down ♪

♪ Johnny is Thunder ♪ ♪ He's falling away ♪ ♪ Goes on to buy a night ♪ - That song, if it is an obvious, is called Johnny Thunder. - Yep.

- By the kinks, 1968. Just one, just one thunder, though. - Yeah, only one, but yeah, singular thunder. - It was Johnny, apparently, who thought to put the S on it. I was after he already went through Johnny volume,

not a good alias.

“Makes me sound like he's runs a stereo stone queen, eh?”

- Johnny volume stereo! - Ah, yeah. - Now, Johnny Thunder's was to put it lightly, a complicated character. As Ivan, my former bandmate and Long Island native put it,

Johnny checked every box that Italian Americans like my friend Ivan tried to avoid, like racism,

domestic abuse, and surprisingly,

considering the style of the New York dolls, quite a bit of homophobia. But if you take Johnny Thunder's out of the New York dolls equation, you take the New York dolls out of rock and roll history completely. And it'd be a damn shame if the story of the dolls

went untold in the music, went unheard, just because one of their members was a bad person who did and said shitty things. - Yeah, Johnny Thunder's is a shithead. - Yeah.

- Who did and say and do bad shitty things. You're totally right here. - Very bad. - But as you said, like he is important to the story, so we will continue in the story on what he contributed.

- Yeah. - Because the thing is what he contributed the most as Silvane Silvane said, like, what he lacked and let's say, musical prowess was that he had talent, well, some sort of talent, he had looks, charisma,

that it factor that made him a rock star. And Marcus, you told me once that Johnny Thunder is like a siren. And I get the siren from the ancient Greek story, the Odyssey. You know, it'd be witching, but dangerous. - Very much so.

- Be witching. - Yeah, I mean, whether you're gay, straight, man, woman, there is something captivating about Johnny Thunder's, like just about his look. And people talk about it again and again,

like you just saw him and you're drawn to him.

“For some reason or another, who the fuck knows why?”

But his, and it's not just his style that made him so good. I think it was, one other member of the New York Dolls, I can't remember who said it, but they said that Johnny Thunder's guitar sounded like a dinosaur screaming in the jungle.

And I think that was such a brilliant way to put it. - 'Cause that is what it sounds like. - And a chronic stick. (laughing) - Yes, so this dinosaur, be witching siren, right?

- We would call him Johnny Thunder's, a quick bio. He was born and raised in Queens, Queens, baby. - Yeah. - That's right. - He was an altar boy at their local Catholic church.

Very Italian American kid, like you said. But as far as school went, he hated it. And school hated him back. - Yeah. - He did terribly in school.

He got expelled from a few of them. I think, at least more than two. And, but that was okay with Johnny because he loved playing baseball. And he was pretty good.

“His dream was to become a professional baseball player”

like his hero, Mickey Mantle. - No, I didn't get it. Oh, he didn't go for the match. - Exactly. Oh, no, Mickey Mantle, by the way,

is not just a guy named after a bar. He was, he famously played for the New York Yankees. - Yes. - And one seven world series champions. Don't wait, championships between 1952 and 1962.

And he's a Libra. Okay, that's all I know about Mickey Mantle. - Oh, good. - Yeah, that's all that Wikipedia would tell. But back to Johnny playing baseball as a kid.

He would train every day. And according to him, Johnny was scouted by the Philadelphia Phillies, the Boston Red Sox. And the newly relocated L.A. Dodgers. I don't know if any of this is true,

but I did hear that the kid could play. - Yeah. - But then came the day that Johnny quit baseball all together during the junior baseball league triads. And there was supposedly a rule

that the players needed a parent or guardian to be present for these triouts. But unfortunately for Johnny, he was raised by a single mother who worked two jobs just to make ends meet. So he couldn't have anyone come.

His dad had left the family. When Johnny was just a baby and just kind of sort of popped up in his life here and there, he was what you call a deadbeat father. - Yeah.

- So, but according to a Silvane's book, Johnny's dad was actually supposed to be there at that trial, it's that day.

As his guardian, but his dad never showed up.

So it must have been hard to deal with that kind of disappointment. - Sure, yeah, they say that was sort of the beginning of Johnny Thunders, he's sort of like fucking attitude.

I'm like, I'm not gonna care about anything.

- Yeah, I can't wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

- So, but Lucky for Johnny.

“- First of all, we should have had, they say.”

(laughing) - Lucky for Johnny though, he had an older sister who she took care of him when their mom was working. She doded on him, spoiled him rotten, they say. But most importantly, she introduced Johnny

to her favorite music of all time. The girl pop groups of the early 1960s, all big fans. And that's when Johnny Thunders started getting, really getting to music, he would borrow his sister's records

and listen to the crystals, the chafons, the Shangrelas, and the angels, he loved the angels. - I love them just so much. - Maybe because it sounded like a baseball team. - It was the California angels.

- Oh, they are a baseball team. - Well, these angels, not the California angels. Okay, they had a hit song at the time, not the baseball team, the angels from the 60s, they had a hit song at the time, called "My Boyfriends Back."

- And you're gonna be in trouble. - He went away and you hung around and bothered me every night. And I wouldn't go out with you. You said things that were very nice. So boyfriends back and you're gonna be in trouble.

- He went away and you hung around and bothered me every night. - He went away and you hung around and bothered me every night. - He went away and you hung around and bothered me every night. - He went away and you hung around and bothered me every night. - He went away and you hung around and bothered me every night.

- Hey, hey, I'm talking about the singers and it wouldn't be the first time.

I was the drummer and a group that was otherwise all female, the engineers. - That's right, I forgot you used to be a girl.

“- Yeah. - And also, remember, I believe Iggy Pop played backing drums for...”

- You're going on the iguanas? - Yeah, yeah, I think they even played for some of these girl groups of the time as well. - They did, they did. - I think they played a show with the band, we'll get to here in a second. How about a second? Okay, so after baseball, Johnny is getting pretty big into music

and soon he's rocking out to not just 60s girl groups. He's rocking out to cool guys like Gene Vincent and Eddie Cochrane. Okay, the epitome of teen rebellion in a black leather jacket, you know. It was the coolest thing ever back then and Johnny thought so too. Because Johnny, he's a very stylish guy, just like the rest of the New York dolls.

Best dressed, best hair, most likely to become a rock star. Those are all superlatives that his high school yearbook should have said. - Mm-hmm. - And of course, best shit head. - No, of course not. So before school, Johnny Gonzale, aka Johnny Thunders, would get

a maculently dressed and put on a Gene Vincent record. Like this song, I love this song. - Be Papa Lula. - Yeah. - So teenage Johnny is in and out of school at this point. But as fate would have it, he briefly had what?

- It just sounds like like just teenage Johnny said. It sounds like you're like about to start singing a song. - teenage Johnny is about to sing a song, teenage Johnny going to high school, teenage Johnny play in baseball. His daddy don't show up, teenage Johnny.

“- Oh my god, that's good. You should be in a croaker.”

- I should. - Holy crap.

- Okay, never get on a motorcycle, because do you know what happens?

- I do. - Okay, so, um, no, Johnny, no. And also, you know, a Reston piece Eddie Cochran and Gene Vincent, by the way. It was a car collision. - Yeah, lift fast, die young, definitely the order of the day. - Yeah, unfortunately. So teenage Johnny, you know, as fate would have it,

He briefly attended new town high school where Sylvan and Billy were also stu...

Yeah, they were all roaming the halls together.

“Sylvan said, when he first noticed Johnny thunders in the hallways,”

he couldn't help but notice how incredibly good looking Johnny was. - Yeah. - He really was. Sylvan described him in his, what, he really was. - He really was. - He's a reston. - Yes, but he was. - I know, it's just I saw all of that get erased by you, like just by how cute he was.

You're just like, he really was. He was really cute. - I know. - He's a siren. - Nice, I'm saying it. - You know, when I look at him now though, I'm just like, "Not, doesn't turn me on." - Oh, you mean? - My panty is still dry. - Good. - Okay. But, Sylvan, on the other hand, thought he was incredibly good looking.

He actually described him in his memoirs, having sculpted cheekbones.

“- He does. - A painstakingly, how do you say this?”

- Coughed hair? - Coughed. - Coughed. - Coughed. - Hair? Okay, really fancy hair. He also noticed that Jonny was constantly surrounded by beautiful girls from school. So one day at the cafeteria at lunch, Sylvan went up to Jonny to see if he could play an instrument, you know, anything. Because if Jonny was in the band with Sylvan and Billy,

maybe a lot of girls would hang out with them. You know, they would all hang out together.

That was their master plan. - It all comes back to girls, always.

- Yeah, duh. - Yeah. - But when Sylvan asked. - It's rock and roll. - Right, why did I hang out at skate parks at 15? - It's what we do. But when Sylvan asked him, Jonny said he didn't know how to play anything. But then he thought about it again and asked Sylvan, "How many strings does a guitar have?" And Sylvan said six strings. Okay, so how many strings does a bass guitar have?

Four? - Yeah. - Four strings. And then Jonny said, "Okay, I'll be your bassist." That must be easier, right? - It is. - Yeah, it is. - It is. - David's school. And that's been Jonny. - How big is Jonny? - How big is Jonny with the sixth string of fourth string? That's the one. I do the fourth string. - How many strings in an oom?

- I think seven. - Oh, never mind. Okay, so that's when Jonny started coming over two.

“- I think it's four. I think it's three. - What? Okay, wait. Is that the Rob? Rob?”

Where is he? I feel like I'm blind. 11 strings. - Wow. Yeah, it's like a loot. Oh, okay. So it would take the entire band of the New York dolls to play one instrument. - Okay. - So Jonny started coming over to the Morseus basement and jamming with Sylvan and Billy. And soon realized that the bass actually isn't that much easier at all. So being the rock god that he wanted to be, Jonny switched to lead guitar and told Sylvan,

your rhythm gets hard. Sorry, he sucks to be you, but these are rock god rules and, you know, I got the best hair. So they jam together for maybe a few weeks until Jonny forgot or got bored or got kicked out of school, which I think is right because soon he enrolled into King Thanos, you know, the performing art school in Manhattan. And he was soon in a band called Jonny and the Jay Walkers. Then they changed it to the rain. Like R-E-I-G-N rain. So not confusing, but Jonny's band, they didn't last long,

but they did get to record a demo, which is on YouTube. Here's their song by The Rain, recorded in the Windsor, 1967 called "Zippered Apart". - And give me a little bit of leeway here. - Yeah, why not? - These are teenagers. [MUSIC] So that's no gene Vincent or my boyfriend's back.

But you know what, it's a start and you got to start somewhere and that's a pretty good start.

>> And it's really not that far off from the first New York Dolls album.

It's really not. It's not that many years. Maybe six, so if you know like something like that, it's a very short period of time. >> That's right, that's a good lesson to learn. If you're first attempt sucks, just give it like six, seven more years and you'll be there.

>> Yeah. >> Maybe. >> Maybe, yeah. >> We get only hope, but yeah, it does show you like that's stick to the goodness, as they call it. Now you mentioned Quintanos, it took me a long time to realize Quintanos wasn't like the cool

Pizza joint where everyone hung out at.

>> Or like right next to the quiz now.

>> Yeah, no, it was a school, it was behind Carnegie Hall and Manhattan. It was a high school for models, musicians and actors, kids on the entertainment. >> Like a performing arts school thing.

“>> Yeah, I think New York has more performing arts schools now, yeah.”

Amongst others, the former students at Quintanos included a Bernadette Peters, the Echo Star of the jerk, Patty Duke. >> She did more than that. >> Well, I mean, I would say, and you get your cousin in the G. She won Donies for Broadway. >> That was fantastic.

>> Great anatomy to two parts series. >> A two part episode. >> So it arc?

>> She was really good on that.

>> Yeah, with the limo episode. She was in that. >> Okay, we're getting too far off the beat. >> But so I would say, let's just probably know from the jerk, Patty Duke went to Quintanos. She, Patty Duke, of course, co-starred in the 1960s cult classic Valley of the Dolls with

none other than Sharon Tate, but most impressively Quintanos was also attended by a singer who was part of a girl group that was above all other girl groups, the favorite of every New York Dolls, the Queens girl group. The most Queens girl group that ever existed. The singer who went to Quintanos was Mary-Wise, and her group was the toughest of all.

The Shangri-Laus.

She was really going out with them, but there she is, let's ask, Betty, is that Jimmy's ring your

wearing? >> Yes, we see, that's when I fell for a leader of the past.

“>> And told me he was mad, when he was dead, that's what I felt more the leader of”

the past. >> That song was number one in the music charts in October 1964, they had three top 10 records and 11 top 10 hit songs in the two years they were a pop group and they're from Queens. >> Yeah. >> I know it's very important to mention that, Queens, baby.

They met in high school, just like the New York Dolls. Mary-Wise, the lead vocalist after the Shangri-Laus, after their highest and everything. She went on to work at an architecture firm. She worked in specializing in commercial interiors in a building in downtown Manhattan, but then, unfortunately, her career ended when the building she had been working on was gutted

due to the September 11th attacks in 2001, because her building was just one block away from the World Trade Center. That's tragic. Here's leader of the pack.

“Maybe we can actually do a room room, maybe it's funny though, if it's not, then don't”

do it. >> My God. Yeah, Mary-Wise, she's a very interesting person, because she talked quite a bit in the later years about the Shangri-Laus, but she is just like, "Oh my God, don't ask me about the Shangri-Laus."

>> The very little. >> But, the down for three hours. >> Yes. >> Exactly what it was, but yet God, I fucking love the Shangri-Laus so much. But Quintano's could not hold Johnny Thunder's attention anymore of the new town high, and

at age 16, he dropped out of high school to more or less hang out in Central Park by day and immerse himself in the rock scene of 1967, New York by night. Bouncing between the action club in Long Island and the newly opened film or east, where at the time, friend of the show, Alan Arcish was actually working as a ticket taker, Johnny saw phenomenal performances from British bands, specifically, I mean, of course, you saw

the kinks, but he also saw the Rolling Stones, who were reworking American blues into something harder, faster, and younger. But because Johnny and his friends were fearless and brazen, and because rock stars were far more apt to socialize with teenagers in the '60s and '70s, well, that the '80s and the '90s, and the '20s, let's just say until COVID, Johnny actually ended up hanging out

with a slew of musicians who are now legends. They were a lot more accessible than that. Far more. Yeah. Thunder's drink beer and Rod Stewart's hotel room at the Newport Jazz Festival.

He met Janice Joplin in the MC5, and he even saved a cigarette packet as a souvenir when he tracked down Keith Richards in Manhattan and spent a night drinking with him at the bar on 13th and fifth.

All right.

You could find him. He just had like, that's the funny thing about the New York Jazz is that they were kind of male groupies before they were musicians. Now, the Rolling Stones were cast a long shadow over the New York Dolls throughout their career.

Keith Richards would of course be a huge influence on many members of the band, including Johnny Thunder. Let's hear a little bit of Keith Richards in which Johnny Thunder is definitely even less than quite close to the song, let's say.

Now, Johnny had always been a hip-kid, but it was his girlfriend, Janice Kafaso, who

amplified Johnny's look and made it more feminine. Johnny began wearing high heels, teasing his hair and wearing women's blouses with sparkling vests and cowboy scarves, complete with makeup, and this is 1967. But Johnny was not the only glamour Jason artist whose girlfriend was the brains behind his more feminine look.

Mark Bolin, of T-Rex, David Bowie, Brian Eno, all of them had their feminine styles kick started by their significant others.

“It was so easy just to be like, "Can I borrow your eyeliner or more likely?”

Where is my eyeliner? I can't find my eyeliner." Most guys just need a girl to say, "Now, it's hot. Go for it." If you hear a girl tell you that, especially 17, don't do anything.

Now, Johnny was doing this in the late '60s.

When most of America was still wrapping their heads around bell bottoms and long hair on boys,

that was still freaking people out, but while Janis effectively created Johnny's look, she was also the inspiration for what was without it out, Johnny's greatest song, which he wrote when he was just 19 years old. See, Johnny's romantic life was, and this is putting it very, very lightly, eternally fucked up.

And his relationship with Janis was just as tumultuous as all of his others. Some of his relationships, you might even describe as illegal. Right. Yeah, downright wrong, I'll say it. Yeah, wrong.

Yeah, we could also say that.

“But his relationships were doomed by what Johnny's biographer called, "a volatile”

neediness." And so, inspired by a throwaway line from one of Johnny's favorite TV shows, "The Honeymooners." I love the Honeymooners.

Honeymooners is fantastic.

Actually, I don't know the holds up as well. We're more eye-loved Lucy people. We are. By that line, Johnny wrote one of the greatest breakup songs in existence of full 10 years before he actually recorded it.

See, while Johnny Thunders had the heart of a bastard, he also had the undeniable soul of a poet as some bastards do. And when he accessed the part of himself that was connected to the universe at large, he was able to write gorgeous, heart-wrenching tunes like this one. You can't put your arms around a memory.

You can't put your arms around a memory. You can't put your hands around a memory. You can't put your hands around a memory.

“You can't put your hands around a memory.”

You can't put your hands around a memory. You can't put your hands around a memory. You can't put your hands around a memory. You can't put your hands around a memory. You can't put your hands around a memory.

You can't put your hands around a memory. You can't put your hands around a memory.

You can't put your hands around a memory.

“You can't put your hands around a memory.”

You can't put your hands around a memory.

“You can't put your hands around a memory.”

You can't put your hands around a memory. You can't put your hands around a memory.

“You can't put your hands around a memory.”

You can't put your hands around a memory. Every time he passed by that big neon sign,

that said New York Doll Hospital on the second floor of an old brownstone building,

he thought to himself, "Man, that's a great band name." Sylvan even said in his autobiography, "I knew it was the greatest band name of all time." All it needed was the greatest band, really. This is 1968.

Height held on to that name for almost three years until

the New York Dolls actually formed.

But we're going to get into that very soon. Yeah. And what did you say? Who did you say had that thing where if you have the Cohen brothers? If you have a really good idea, write it down and put it in a drawer.

And someday you'll come across it again.

“Totally. And that's what Sylvan did with it.”

That's a great fucking band name. I just got to find the band. And as I said earlier, Billy and Syl have been designing their own high school. So when Syl was fired from a different drummer from missing work, he and Billy started selling their own psychedelic sweaters and

wool bikinis, which were apparently massive in the night late 60s. It was a big deal.

They were inspired by the bright colors,

traditionally worn in Billy's home country of Columbia. Before long, Billy and Syl were selling their clothes to the coolest shops in Manhattan, like Jump and Jack Flash. Granny takes a trip and Betsy Bunky Nini's.

Betsy Bunky Nini is actually a very important clothing store in Manhattan. That one was-- Is it near the Uvaloo?

“It was owned by legendary designer Betsy Johnson.”

Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Betsy Johnson. She's the one who designed the outfits for the Velvet Underground and had in the process, married John Kale of the Velvet Underground.

In the process of designing their outfits

with Betsy Johnson Heming Lou Reed's pants while she was walking down the aisle. No, I mean, that she had met them to design their outfits. And then while she had designed their outfits throughout the year, she got to know John Kale and eventually the two of them got married. You're telling me this, like we didn't do a whole series on the Velvet Underground.

You're telling me who's being purposefully obtuse about my writing. I am very purposefully obtuse. Put that on my tombstone. No, that is true. Lou Reed got mad at her because she didn't hem his pants right.

Yeah. But then again, Lou Reed gets mad if you don't look at him right. And Betsy Johnson was also a Judge on Drag Race. That's true. I know, she's legendary.

And one thing John Kale said, even though their marriage didn't work out, was that she was the hardest working, most motivated and vicious woman without being a total complete bitch. Really nice person. But she worked her ass off every single day and it paid off.

And my hats off to Betsy Johnson, by the way. Indeed. And Sylvain and Billy Mercier. Betsy Johnson was the type of people they were selling their clothes to. They were being taken very seriously in the fashion world.

Eventually, Billy and Sylvain's fashion venture was successful enough to need a name. So they took a phrase from the movie poster for the Ultra Cool Satire, Putney Swope, and called it Truth and Soul. Here's something from the soundtrack of that movie. Just to kind of show you how fucking cool it was.

These guys had taste. But Peppney says the bomb in sixth girl is got to have so. You can't eat any air conditioner. Yes, that movie Putney Swope. Swope, sorry.

Directed by Robert Downey Sr., who dubbed the voice of a black man in this film as a satire. We haven't seen it yet. But apparently it is the criterion collection. The George Lucas Foundation actually restored this.

“And it is apparently a very important piece of art of film.”

We haven't seen it yet. Well, I mean, it was sampled in a ton of hip hop songs. Like, I mean, it was a sample that's far back as like 1985. Putney Swope was a Dallas-old sampled it. I think in a three is a magic number.

It's a, you know, it's cool. It's what you call a cool movie. All right. We got to watch it before we make any other opinion. I just know it respected.

And by 1970, Sill and Billy were earning $5,000 for every fashion line they put out. $5,000. I mean, it was serious money and Wayne's world time. But this is 1970. $5,000 is so much money in 1970.

$5,000 today to me, you're like, give me $5,000. Wow. But running a business at the age of 19 is a massive drag, especially during one of the

Most simultaneously exciting and terrifying times in American history to be y...

1960, 1970. Yeah. It's a good point. Yeah. Oh, God.

“It's such a drag having a successful business as being an immigrant”

and as new country and actually just succeeding.

Good. Oh, gosh. I should go get high and fuck off to Europe. Wait. That's exactly what they did.

Well. Yeah. This is a matter of your an immigrant or successful or anything. V in 19. You don't want to fill out order forms.

You want to go get high and party. That's what they did. And after making a particularly big sale,

Philly cashed out his side of the business and headed to Amsterdam.

And still followed a few months later in the summer of 1970, but not before stopping off in London for a purchase that would change sell sell vein sound completely. So even though they were in a fashion, sell was still a guitarist at heart. And in London, sell bought a Marshall stack amp, which, you know, today I could literally get a Marshall stack amp delivered to my doorstep by tomorrow.

But in 1970, a Marshall stack was an exceedingly expensive piece of equipment in America. In England, not so much. So, and still had wanted a Marshall stack ever since he'd seen Hendrix using one a few years earlier. And as it turned out, it was an exceedingly wise purchase because sells Marshall stack that he paid to have shipped back to America.

It would do wonders to beef up the New York doll sound when they started playing the clubs of New York in due time.

“Yes, but the Marshall amps weren't the only thing that would help the New York dolls get to the next level.”

Because this is the time of the beginning of glam, right?

glam rock and pop and everything in between.

And it was lucky, or let's say serendipitous that Sylvan was in London in 1970, when he got to watch a performance at the legendary roundhouse venue, which we should talk about soon. We will. And he got to see one of the coolest shows ever, one of the masters of glam. Mark Bullard. [Music]

We are the lad, glad to hear me being the old days where a girl had come to touch in the cow. Right away, swan met the people of the bell team. We hang on, they become the bro. [Music] It should let star in a casino for him.

See if he spells and movie there you go. [Music] That was right a white swan, which I don't recommend.

“Released in March 1970, by Mark Bulland's band Tyrande Soros-Frex,”

who's just about to become T-Rex. Mostly because they're manager, Tony Visconti. Yeah, exactly. Tony Visconti is the man who made Bowie. Exactly. Tony Visconti was Mark Bulland's manager at the time and his producer. He was tired of writing out the Tyrande Soros part in their calendars and promotional stuff.

It's annoying, even the dinosaur goes by T-Rex. Right? So they changed it to T-Rex very soon after that. But anyway, Mark Bulland was essentially T-Rex. I mean, they were a duo. It was just Mark Bulland and a bongo drummer hippie named Steve Perigrantook.

God damn it. Not his real name. This song, this song, writer White Swan, is at the beginning of their Glam period in 1970. But T-Rex did start, actually started as a band in 1967, as a barefoot cross-legged hippie duo,

writing songs about a wizard Mark Bulland met in the woods just outside of Paris, which is a real story according to Mark sometimes. Sometimes he says it's real and sometimes he says, "Oh, you know, the media. They like to embellish things." But they really, really happen.

Yeah, Mark love to play with the media. And to tell really fucking bizarre stories about French wizards. Exactly. No. And you know what who knows, who's to say that's not true.

Yeah. Actually, we are. Anyway, I do believe Mark Bulland wrote his own version of Lord of the Rings. Yeah, without reading Lord of the Rings. I'm not kidding.

Look it up. But by 1970, Mark had given up his whole Ravi Shankar inspired hippie vibe and traded in his acoustic guitar for a Fender Stratocaster electric guitar. And in the following year, he released his biggest album Electric Warrior, right, which

Will definitely influence the New York dolls in everything they do, especiall...

their music.

“But also his style, because Mark Bulland looked like a super hot rock star with white, make-up,”

and cos, make costumes.

He was definitely like a ruffled shirt and velvet kind of guy.

A very hot rock and roll Willy Wonka. Okay, hotter. Much hotter. Much hotter. Yes.

He did look like Willy Wonka though. But hotter one. Yeah, yeah. Far more stylish Willy Wonka. Oh, sorry.

Also, as a research, no, by the way. Sylvanes spoke about going to this concert in his autobiography, but it's also in Johnny Thunders. Thunders is a bio that he had gone to London with a press pass. He had borrowed from a friend and saw T-Rex in 1969 at the roundhouse where steam hammer opened, which is the same show that happened in 1970, which inspired Johnny to find a band to join.

But I'm not sure if that's correct. But then again, who cares? They all loved Mark Bulland.

The moment he went to electric and they never looked back.

Come on, check out this banger of a song. This song will make you have sex, even if you're alone. [music playing] [music playing] Okay, so Sylvanes leaves London super inspired.

He then goes to Amsterdam and sees the who in concert in 1970. But most importantly, actually, he found Billy Morsia, who Billy was busking on the street where he actually ran into each other because Amsterdam is actually not that big of a city. It's not. They ran into each other, they hugged, and then they just kept traveling around Europe together until they got busted, of course.

So they were back in London when the police raided the hostel they were staying at. The cops were looking for a couple of Americans who were illegally shipping Hashish back to the states. The cops went to every person and asked them if they were American.

“That was pretty much how they were going to bust them, right?”

And Sylvanes stupidly said yes. - Yeah. - Oh, guy, why? And when they found a little hashish in his pocket, he spent a few days in jail. But Billy was smart and said, "No, no, no, no, no."

The endo English, "yes, hashish." Remember, Billy is Colombian. - For Bogata? - Yes, that's right. Anyway, after Sylvan got out of jail, they were escorted to the airport

and placed on a flight back to New York City. So that was the end of their trip, but at least he got those more show amps. - He did. And that was the most, he got them our show amps.

He saw T-Rex, he saw the who. I mean, it was a hell of a few months. Now, it's around the time that the future lead guitarist of the New York Dolls, he decided that Johnny Gonzale

wasn't the coolest name in existence. He's right, it's terrible name.

“Johnny replaced the Gonzale with Thunder's.”

Either after a comic book cowboy, the same name, or after the classic we played earlier from the kinks, put the S on it. And thus he created one of the best rock and mole names in history.

And with this new name, Bolstering is confidence. Johnny eventually hooked back up with Billy and Syl, and they all became regulars at a bar down in the village called Nobody's. The future dolls have been drawn to nobody's,

because by 1970, this had become one of the coolest rock and roll hangouts in New York City. Night after night, Johnny, Billy and Syl would watch as rock royalty, like Rod Stewart, Jimmy Page, and Robert Plant would walk in and hold court

with the ladies at the bar. One time, they said they even saw Iggy Pop there, although they said Iggy just sat there looking sad for a few hours, nobody talked to him and he just left alone.

- Oh man, that is such an Iggy Pop story. - I think I've read that story, like, I've read that story many times. - You talked about that in the Stuja's many years ago,

our first series was on the Stuja's.

And for a little while there, he was a bit of a joke. - He was. - In the '70s. - Yeah.

- He spoke before the idiot. - Before he went to Berlin, you know, and did his David Bowie boot camp. - Yeah. - But that's all to say that nobody's was the first hangout

spot for the band that would become the New York Dolls, a spot that would become part of their identity.

It would also be where they would interact

with one of their other future members for the first time.

- Yes. - As a friend remembered it, Johnny Thunders was tripping on acid at nobody's one night. When a blonde six-foot tall monster came lumbering in wearing huge platform boots.

And the first thing that Johnny's acid-addled brain had was that Frankenstein had just arrived. He said, "Fuckin' knows I'm high, man. Frankenstein's here." Look, damn it.

(laughing) It was of course not Frankenstein. - What? - Rather, it's lumbering gentle giant on platforms was Arthur Killer King.

Future Basist of the New York Dolls. Now Arthur represented the northernmost burrow, the Bronx. He'd been a straight-a-student and a bit of a loner growing up

and he was so quiet that he was given the ironic nickname

of Arthur Killer King. But after Arthur's mother died when he was 17, he began to rebel by drinking smoke and pot in a course sniffing glue, eventually though. - Well, hey, of course.

“- 'Cause that's what all these guys did.”

(laughing) They all sniffed good, glue, it was big in the outer burrows. Some of them even wrote songs about it. - Oh, that's right, that there's that one song called, what was it called?

- No, I don't know. - No, it's called sniffing glue. (laughing) - Eventually though, Arthur picked up a guitar in order to avoid getting drafted into the Vietnam War,

Arthur enrolled at Pratt College to study of all things and I think he just picked it at random, hotel management and food science. But it was while Arthur was at Pratt, that he and his high school buddy George,

better known now in New York Rock History as Rick Ribbits, they got really serious about their band, London fog with two G's. I will say, again, it's important to keep in mind as we listen to this clip with London fog,

it's more about heart here than it is about talent. They're trying, real hard. - Yeah. (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language)

“- So when they recorded this, was someone wearing a wire?”

- Yeah. - Like, was it a purpose? - I think it was that they were playing a live show and somebody was just standing in the audience with a little microphone.

- Oh, they did that with a velvet underground too. - Yeah. - As we all know. - Okay, very cool. I mean, this song obviously, London fog,

they're very garage band inspired. - Yeah. - Yeah, trucks. - Exactly, the London fog with two G's named after a jacket or I believe Raincoat Company.

- It probably had two G's because of the trucks. - No, no, because it was a raincoat or a jacket company. - But the jacket company doesn't have two G's. - How do you know that? - 'Cause I know it.

- Rob. (laughing) We need a tiebreaker. - Yeah, yeah, London fog isn't spelled with two G's. - I know that, but the raincoat company.

- I know the raincoat company. The raincoat company doesn't have two G's.

“I think they add two G's because trucks have two G's.”

And they sound like the trucks. - The trucks, what's the song? - Wild thing. - Dude, dude. - Yeah.

- You made my heart sick.

- Yeah, and a girl like you is also an incredible,

underrated, 60's garage classic. - Gotcha. - No, one G, London fog. - All right, they must have changed it since 1970. It must have been like that's stupid.

- Okay, you're probably right. Yeah, you're probably totally correct. All right, so they were named London fog with two G's after the trucks. They actually did manage to get some gigs downtown

at the bitter end and cafe wall. By the way, shout out to Forte, dormant of cafe wall for, I don't know, how long I've seen 10 years, but they all power to ya. But back to Arthur and his best friend and bandmate,

Rick rivets, or who they called big George. - Big George. - Yes, I know, this is a very Robin Hood kind of thing. Okay, so these guys, they are very influenced, as I said, by garage bands, blues bands, rock bands,

or all of the above, which is pretty much the yard birds. - Yeah. - So here's a song, it's a bow-diddly cover, but a great cover with Jeff Beck playing guitar, and it's called, "I'm a man."

Nobody in this era of time covered songs like the fucking yard birds.

(upbeat music)

♪ We'll never miss it, we'll love you baby ♪

♪ You can't resist it, mama man ♪ ♪ I can't stand it, we can't stand it, we can't stand it ♪ ♪ And we can't stand it, we can't stand it ♪ - Hey, this is, it's just like the Rolling Stones, you know, it's blues, but it's faster and it's harder,

and it's louder, and these guys are paying attention. - Oh, totally, yes, definitely. And of course, Arthur and Big George are very much paying attention.

“I mean, Rick rivets, that's what he would like to go by.”

They got to see the yard birds live when they came to Long Island, New York, to a venue called Action House, which is very self-explanatory. (laughing)

Very, very cool venue. I believe Kiss started there,

when they were a blue chain bag.

(laughing) So Arthur even got to hang out with the yard birds, that night that they saw the show, and they also made damn sure the checkout, what shoes and clothes, the yard birds were wearing,

Arthur took notes, then afterwards he would hit the thrash shops and get, you know, these used leather motorcycle jackets, filly ruffled shirts, silk scarves to wear, and some bright red boots.

- Yeah, I wanna, I wanna look just like all the five-ish pop and Jay, as you saw. (laughing)

“Marty cried, she ain't getting in the grave right now.”

- Yes, so Arthur Kane also had, just like the rest of the New York dolls, a very, very good sense of fashion.

At the very least, because he was very big

into like fabrics, like velvet and satin and looking damn fashionable for the time. Even if he got shit for a heating care, he loved how he looked, especially wearing his platform boots, when he was already like six foot four,

which is the gigantic for that time. - That's boy, Johnny thought he was Frankenstein, you know. - And it wasn't long until Arthur got, you know, going to Europe to go shopping bug like the rest of the New York dolls,

they all did this on their own, separately, by the way, but like Silvene and Billy, and it actually, even Johnny Thunders went for a bit, as we said, he got a press pass and everything. Arthur's trip though ended quite abruptly,

when he, this happened for real. He bought a motorbike at an outdoor market in Amsterdam. He drove it around like an idiot. He got pulled over by the cops.

“And when the cops noticed that Arthur's visa was expired”

and that the motorbike was actually stolen. (laughing) Arthur was properly escorted to the airport and put on a flight back to New York City. These guys have already a lot in common.

- Yes. - So funny enough, Arthur and Rickrivitz met Johnny Thunders in the most meet-cute way, the most meet-cute, rock and roll shady assway to be honest. You see, Arthur and Rickrivitz,

after they got back from Europe, they got day jobs. Rick, as a postal worker, and Arthur, as a telephone repairman, but it was just way too boring for them. So one night, I don't know why, but one night, they were riding in their van downtown

in the West, West, in the West village. - In the West village. - In the up of the side, but one night, they were riding in their van downtown in the West. I can't say it right.

- I want to vibe your windows. I'm the Vipa. - Oh no. - Where are you from? Up of the side?

- Okay, I gotta stop this, I gotta stop this. Okay, so one night, I don't know why, but they were riding in their van downtown in the West village on Blakers Street when they saw a really nice motorcycle

and this sighted to steal it. - The reason why is everyone in New York City in 1970 was like a low-grade criminal. - Every one. (laughs) - A little bit like every one.

- Mini, mini. - Oh no. - Yeah, mini. - Let's say mini. - Mini.

- Okay. - Okay, edit, wait. Really? (laughs) - Okay, so they decided, okay.

- So Arthur and Rick River, it's actual criminals. They decided to steal it. And instead of trying to hotwire it, they decided to pick it up and load it into their van.

But the problem was the motorcycle was way too heavy for them. So they only got the front half of it into their battered Volkswagen van.

Just the butt was sticking out the whole time.

And it took him like a half hour to even do that.

They were also very drunk. They got a couple of fucking guns.

“- And they were also looking very suspicious”

in front of everyone on pleakers street. - We got platform shoes on. - And trying to steal someone's bike. (laughs) And so, yes, they were looking very suspicious.

Everyone's kind of stopping like what's going on, especially Johnny Thunder's who happened to be on pleakers street. Trying to front of them outside of Pete's apartment. And that's when Arthur Cain and Rick River saw Johnny and recognized him from the film

more and nobody's, so they forgot about their crime. That they were committing. And they walked over to Johnny Thunder to see if he wanted to play music with them sometime. And according to Johnny Thunder's,

he was just enjoying some pizza

when two large individuals just started walking towards him

in a menacing way with scared Johnny and nothing to thinking like, should I run? Oh wait, I'm wearing platforms like that won't work. And it doesn't, I tested that theory. It does not work.

- None of that. But as Arthur and his buddy got closer, Johnny recognized them and was like, "All right, those are the two giant Frankenstein's who hang out, we're hanging out."

And soon, introductions were made and they made arrangements to jam together sometime. I don't know what happened to that motorcycle, but maybe it was destiny, you know what I mean? Destiny, destiny,

no one's having that for me, destiny. - Very, very important. Now, after Arthur's relationship with his father disintegrated,

he moved into the Marcia home,

doubt and Queens, 'cause as you said earlier, the Marcia is ran a boarding house. And still still vain, Billy, Marcia, and Rick Rivers, they were already living in the Marcia house. And before long, Arthur, Sil, Billy, Rick, and Johnny,

were playing in the Marcia family basement in the earliest incarnation of the New York Dolls. Taking turns as lead singer, shouting over the noise. Sil, however, took an extended trip to the UK in mid-1971 and stayed there until the end of the year.

But the band that would become the New York Dolls continued while he was gone. While Sil wasn't looking, Billy, Marcia, kind of sorta stole Sil's idea for the name of their fledging band.

While Sil was gone, the groups started calling themselves the dolls. Partly, this name played into the way they were dressing, which was already inching towards drag. But it's important to note that the way these guys looked on stage is the way they dressed to go

to the fucking bodega. I mean, that is what Sil Sil van Wood City said would take us five hours to get ready to go to the grocery store. And it was a hell of a courageous thing to do in 1971.

“And they were doing it simply because that's how they liked”

to dress. - I would love to be like, so are these grapes, like, ripe or what do you think? - And completely in drag, like there are caffeine kids in the house.

- Eventually, Johnny Thunders got tired of commuting all the way to Queens for rehearsal from his apartment in Alphabet City in Manhattan. What neighborhood in Queens was the mercy of family house? I actually don't know.

- They weren't Jamaica. - They were Jamaica. - Okay, yeah, yeah, fuck. Yeah, Alphabet City Jamaica, it's gonna take a while. So Arthur tracked down a rehearsal space

around the corner from the natural history museum on 82nd Columbus. - Well, today that area is quite posh. I mean, wearing Manhattan isn't after all. - It is totally, like, you can't even afford

to step on anyone sidewalk at this point. - You can't even afford a park there. But back then, 82nd Columbus was the site of Rusty's bicycle repair shop, which was owned by a surly old New York character named Rusty.

- May he rest in peace. - Yeah, he's definitely dead. - I'm guessing he's dead. Rusty, however, didn't trust the bands that he rented this rehearsal space, too.

So to keep the dolls from stealing Rusty's bikes. - And you know what, he had good reason to do with it. (laughing) - Yeah, Rusty was like, kind of on point with this one. He would lock the entire band inside his store room

to rehearse while he left for the evening and then he would come and unlock the door when their time was up. What if there was a fire? They would all burn to death in there.

- You see, some of the guys are ready to try to steal it.

“- Remember, in some of them were selling drugs”

and Johnny Thunder's was selling quailudes. You know, I mean, I don't, and also by the way, I don't believe any of the New York dolls ever got away with their crime ever. So it was very adorable, cute.

And that's on Rusty's head. - Yeah, right. - Rusty's beanie head. (laughing) - I guess it, low-grade criminals.

- Yes, so, back to the early lineup of the dolls. At this point, they're the dolls. So we got Billy Morsant on drums, Rick Rivots on rhythm guitar since Sylvan is still, you know, in England, having no idea they've got a head and started a band

Without him, like you said.

Arthur Killer came on bass guitar. So Johnny Thunder's got lead guitar

“and even did some vocals for a lot of their songs”

at this time. And this is around October 1971 when Rick Rivots brings his cassette player to record a demo that they would call the actress tapes

which is supposedly their first band name,

but that's not true. They were already the dolls, by this point, yes. So these songs they recorded at a rehearsal at Rusty's bike shop, these were original songs, mostly written by Johnny Thunder's, like this one,

called "That's Poison." (upbeat music) , "That's Poison." ♪ Poison play you play ♪ ♪ You play you play ♪

♪ You play you play ♪ ♪ You play you play ♪ ♪ You play you play ♪ ♪ You play you play ♪ You know, maybe I'm gonna crash my boat into the wrongs.

(laughing)

“- No, I'm kidding, 'cause honestly it is not easy to start”

and it is always good to just try

and just get it out there, no matter how much it might suck or whatever, but it doesn't even suck that back. - It really doesn't. I have heard and played far worse. - Exactly.

- Put it on the new, whatever, compilation. Clearly, no, it doesn't suck that back. (laughing) - As rough as that is, I mean, you can still hear that you sit in the break, you said,

you can still hear Johnny Thunder's in that. I agree completely. You can hear the signature Johnny Thunder's guitar. If, of course, his voice, nobody sounds like him. It shows promise, and because Johnny Thunder's

obviously was in a strong singer, just yet, as you just heard, he decided to focus on guitar.

“So the dolls went searching for a real singer”

and through a former tenant at the Marcia House, they found a guy who had moved to Manhattan from our final burrow of the evening. Staten Island, this guy's name was David Johansson. And once Johansson joined, as one of the greatest

front men of the 1970s, the song you just heard, that's poison, it became the classic New York Doll's track, Subway Train. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

♪ I hear ♪ ♪ Everunder's thing ♪ ♪ I'm alive ♪ ♪ In terms of why love can be here ♪ ♪ When I'm trying ♪

♪ Evernight ♪ ♪ Don't forget me, you're me ♪ ♪ But I'm a tellin' you ♪ ♪ And you said ♪ ♪ Ever since I've been riding ♪

♪ Like all the subway train ♪ ♪ You can get a wrist on the road ♪ ♪ You might think I'm him say ♪ ♪ And now you're friends ♪ ♪ I got you man ♪

- Ah yes, and that's where we'll pick back up next week with the story of David Johansson and the formation of the early 70s New York City, he's seen that the dolls helped create with David as their New Leeds singer.

- Yes, I'm very excited. I mean, this is just the beginning. - Yeah, it really is. I mean, next week we're gonna be gettin' in so many different avenues in New Yorkshire,

we're gonna be gettin' into Jackie Curtis, gonna be gettin' back into Maxis Kansas City. One more time, you know, we're gonna be gettin' into, you know, the fuckin' the Mercer Arts Center. You know, like there's so many great character,

like suicide shows up, you know, everybody's here. And he wore all shows up. Everyone is in the next episode, and then it's very sad for a bit. And then it gets fun again.

- It's really fun. - Yeah, yeah. Like every rock and roll story of the 1970s, perhaps.

But first of all, I would like to give a very big thank you

to Patrick Fisher, our assistant researcher

Co-producer of No Docks in Space.

And thank you to Kelsey Netser for all her help.

“And a big thank you to Rob Oki for recording”

and editing this episode. He did a fuckin' fantastic job. - Thank you Rob. - We have T-shirts, in men's and women's sizes. - Yeah, we got two different designs.

- Three, three, yeah. - Oh, yeah. You can find those at lastponcastmerch.com. - Absolutely. - And don't forget to follow us on Instagram

at No Docks pod, go check out the stuff we're doing

on YouTube, just type in No Docks in Space.

And if you have, let's say a band, if you play music. - If you just make sounds. - If you just make sounds,

“send us an email at No Docks in [email protected]”

and show us your shit, show us your music. - We'd be honored to play at the end of our episode. We play a band at the end of every episode. Just anybody who just sends it to us on the email and we check it out and we love it.

We loved promoting this stuff and just keep throwing it out there because even if it doesn't get on there, we love hearing you music. So thank you so much.

Thank you so much for your submissions, really. - And I also want to say like to all the people that have sent us emails saying that they started a band because they listened to the show. I met a fantastic fan in Portland

“who said that they had moved to Portland”

because they heard this and decided like, fuck it, I'm gonna go play some music. Fuck it, I can't tell you how proud I am of that. And how much that means? - Yeah, no, I've also heard similar things

where they started basement shows and their whole neighborhood created a scene and everything like, thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you, I mean, we are humbled, humbled and thank you.

- Very much so. And our band of the week for our return is a bunch of crop rock inspired weirdos at a Durham North Carolina. - Which is our favorite kind of people?

- Yes, they're called void word. They have a manifesto. I love a band with a manifesto and this is what they said about the track they submitted. This track is number seven of what will eventually be

11 versions of the plow man.

It is the first track for Voidwood's debut.

The Knives EP, it was conceived as a companion to a cult cemetery, the two-part micro album released on vinyl February 22nd, 2025. The plow man, 11th anniversary edition macro single, commemorates 11 years of herding the void.

Here's Voidwood, fucking love this shit. It's a nine-minute long song, it's awesome. Bye everybody, see you next week. - Good bye. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) ♪ Start on the heel of the plow man ♪ ♪ Loves for way ♪ (upbeat music)

♪ Now as the hour and hour ♪ ♪ It's been time since year ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ And it's over here ♪ ♪ To me ♪

♪ To me ♪ ♪ And when it's the time ♪ ♪ Don't say anything ♪ ♪ Turn me on ♪ ♪ Loves for way ♪

♪ I'm going on ♪

♪ Loves for way ♪

♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ I'm going on ♪

♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ I'm going on ♪ (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

♪ Now as the hour and hour ♪

♪ It's been time since year ♪ ♪ Don't say anything ♪ ♪ Now as the hour and hour ♪ ♪ It's been time since year ♪ ♪ Don't say anything ♪

♪ Don't say anything ♪ ♪ Don't say anything ♪ (upbeat music)

♪ Now as the hour and hour ♪

♪ It's been time ♪ ♪ Don't say anything ♪ ♪ Now as the hour and hour ♪ ♪ It's been time since year ♪ ♪ Don't say anything ♪

♪ Now as the hour and hour ♪ ♪ It's been time since year ♪ ♪ Don't say anything ♪ ♪ Don't say anything ♪ (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) ♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ I'm going on ♪ (upbeat music)

♪ Now as the hour and hour ♪

♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ I'm going on ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ I feel the burden and I'm going ♪

♪ So many ways I'm going on ♪ ♪ I'm going on ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ There we go ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪

♪ I won't let you know ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪

♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪

♪ No matter how long ♪

♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪

♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪

♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪

♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪ ♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪

♪ The sound of you ♪ ♪ No matter how long ♪

Transcript

(upbeat music)

Highly femme, they did that because it was their instinct to do so.

It concerns the one and the best way.

When an international conflict changed the course of five year old Sylvain's ...

Because by the time he was like 10, 11 years old, Sils Vain and his family le...

That came along, and every once in a while,

He just had one snare drum,

♪ All the people like the town ♪

I'm like, I'm not gonna care about anything.

He briefly attended new town high school where Sylvan and Billy were also stu...

Pizza joint where everyone hung out at.

All right.

You can't put your hands around a memory.

Height held on to that name for almost three years until

Most simultaneously exciting and terrifying times in American history to be y...

Will definitely influence the New York dolls in everything they do, especiall...

It would also be where they would interact

(upbeat music)

Just the butt was sticking out the whole time.

Without him, like you said.

Co-producer of No Docks in Space.

♪ Loves for way ♪

♪ No matter how long ♪

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