Finding Joy Anyway with Kate Bowler

You have to pick a school to cheer for. - You're starting with this?

“- Yes, okay. Introducing my new best friend who doesn't know yet.”

- Joy is this brief in-living soul-enlarging moment where you just say, "Yes, oh my gosh, it's so amazing to be alive." - I'm just gonna play Kate's voice and repeat in my brain when I start questioning things. - Yeah, we get older, everything, double wrinkles, that's okay. Here, we're laughing when we each laugh, it's like a comedy stage. And that's what we got there finds.

- Hey, everybody, I'm Kim Holder-ness. - And I've been Holder-ness, thank you so much for joining us on Black Lines.

- If you've ever found true joy out of never having to buy a gift bag to wrap a president,

because you have a huge stash stored from, I don't know, your daughter's baby shower and your baby's 19. - Or anything at all, because you always say, should we throw this bag out and you say, - No, it's a pretty good bag. - It's a pretty good bag. Anyway, if that's you, you're home, welcome to laugh lines.

“- For your people. So listen, this is a call to action for you, our listeners, the laugh pack?”

- Is that what you said? Did we go with that? - Our laugh lineers, the laugh, the laughables? - The laughables. - We're like, Lunchable, but funnier. - There's a funny little story. There's a lot of internet influencers, they have a name of their fan base, like what's a fuel nation or whatever, and we're just not,

- What is fuel nation? - Is that a thing? - No, probably, I don't know, but we're not there yet. - We haven't gotten there yet, so we want a, what should we call you guys? And also, we're about to come in to the second half of our season of laugh lines. And honestly, you guys give us the best ideas when you do write us, and we read everything

that you write us. So if you could write to us, podcast at theholdernessfamily.com, what would you like to hear about? - Yeah, if there's a topic you'd like us to cover, or guest you'd like us to have, just hit us up, we love your suggestion. Meanwhile, today is a day that I'm excited about, but even more, so my wife has been talking about for many, many months now, because it's someone she's really looking forward to meeting.

- Yes, she's my new best friend. She just doesn't know it yet. Have you ever had that experience of, like, as soon as we meet children, we're going to be best friends.

- She's amazing. She's a four-time New York Times best-selling author, award-winning podcast host,

and professor at Duke University, which we'll get into that. Her name is Kate Boller. You guys are going to love this conversation about her new book called Twyful Anyway, but first, because we're the law-fines, we have to go to the law-fline. - Hey, this is Abby from Charleston, South Carolina, and I just wanted to share a tip that I found to be really helpful for my ADHD.

So lately, I have been giving my past, stealth, who might have done something right, credit for the future setups. In this case, I was looking for a pocket knife, and I was trying to figure out where I might have put it, so I had no idea, of course, I couldn't remember. And I said, well, where would I put it now, if I set up a new location, and sure enough, that was exactly where the pocket knife lived, and I said, thanks,

past, Abby. You've done it. You helped future Abby out by doing what would have made sense for the past, Abby. That way, I kind of went into the matrix there, but I love that. - Well, it's super creative, and what we were just talking about there was systems in place, right?

And this is something, for those of you who missed the last few episodes, my amazing wife,

I've known this for a while, but has told the rest of the world that she's been diagnosed as well with ADHD. She's been such a rock star to make it this far without actually getting this diagnosis, and it happens all the time with women. - Rock star? - I don't know.

“- Yeah, I think you have been. I love this because systems in place are very important, scaffolding,”

if you want to call it that hacks, if you want to call it that, like ways to get through life, which to us may seem mundane with things like finding a pocket knife. And by the way, Abby, I do this to in sort of a strange way, like thanking my past self. I, when I eat a salad, and I wake up the next morning, and I feel good, I say thank you, shrimp salad. Like it's a way to have fun with like doing with adulting, right? And so that was her way of

like thanking her past self, and it's going to make it more fun, right? And it also, it's emotional valence. Like, here's why I'm doing this. Here's why I'm putting my pocket knife in a certain space, and then we're going to become less forgetful, and we're going to dominate the world. - Love it. - Yeah. - Does it bring you joy? Would you say? - That last thing did bring me joy, probably because it was unexpected. - Ooh, okay, foreshadowing. - Right away.

- Where is that going into introducing my new best friend who doesn't know yet? Kate Bulller is a four-time New York Times bestselling author, award-winning podcast host,

Kate studies stories we tell ourselves about success, suffering, and faith,

and what happens when those stories fall apart. - After being diagnosed with stage four cancer at the age of 35, she began asking deeper questions about how we actually live well when life doesn't go according to plan. To her bestselling books, her podcast, everything happens, and her latest book, "Joyful" anyway, Kate explores how we can all learn to live with more honesty, hope, and even joy in the middle of the messy parts of life. - Welcome to the show,

my new best friend, Kate Bulller. - Hi, so glad to be here. - Oh, my gosh, this is so fun. Okay, before we start on your brilliant new book, "Joyful" anyway. Okay.

We are all proud North Carolinians, and when you move here, you have to, it's actually like

“legally binding, you have to pick a school to cheer for. - You're starting with this?”

- Yes, okay, so, and we in this area, we have UNC, we have Duke, NC State, and they're all within like moments of each other, and you have to pick one school, and you, and I think, like for the rest of your life, you have to hate the other schools. - Agreed. Like, it's just what happens. So, Penn raised in Durham, but brought up by a whole bunch of tar heels, his granddad played basketball for UNC. He didn't even go to UNC, but he's like in the

cult, right? Stop, okay. And then we're watching the most recent UNC Duke game, I see you on TV. They, I was like, oh my god, that's my new friend, Kate, and you're sitting there going so raw, raw for Duke. - You're like, you're like, you're horse, you're all shoulders, it was strong. - And Penn made this noise that came from somewhere. It was like, oh, I was like, I was like,

“I forgot, I'm ready to hear it. And like, this way, you're like in a family metabolized,”

it felt like hatred. - Which is like me to jump in here? - Yes. - Okay, so I was in a very emotionally compromised state. It happens to me twice a year, sometimes three, if we beat them in the final four. Sorry, if we ever played them in the tournament. And so I like, they were, Carolina was getting the crap kicked out of them, which is pretty normal these days. Like Duke has gotten very good. And then there's Kate. And she's next to like the mascot for Duke cringe,

who I absolutely-- - I don't dare you, sir. - See, here we go. No, it's Ken Jong, who I love, actually. - But he has become like a mascot. - It's like, yes. - I mean, you're only saying that because we lifted him like Simba to learn the Cameron crazy. - He's like, he's like a lot of fun. I got it admit. Like he seems like a lot of fun. But no, so I was raised not only by a Carolina family, but also my dad's church were a bunch of Duke doctors. So I've been very, very connected with this rivalry

in this relationship. I've been to Cameron probably 30 times because when you don't want to put money in the offering tray, they give you chicken. - You put Duke tickets back when they weren't that good. - Yeah, so we would go all the time and I-- - So hated them. - I still hated them, but so, now you're in my house. - It was like wearing neutral colors on New Children's Year to talk about joy. - He was not feeling a lot of joy. - No, no, that's true. - I liked that we started this way.

“- Why? - Why did you start this? - So I think it was for coming. I hate you. What I feel for you”

is nature of age, fair and how dare you serve. You lived close enough to the crucible to know what's a stake here? - Yeah. - And what's a stake is Duke's natural dominance in the world. - Unless it's in the farm for me. - For me, it's quite theologically problematic because our mascot is like a satanic blue figure that like Rome started before. - Yeah. - And you while the establishment shot for ESPN is the Dividendies school, so it's a one-legged news professor at the

Dividendies school is like, "Yeah, same reality, Rome's here!" - They showed Duke Chapel at the start of every game. - Yeah. - We love you, Prince of the Air. - It's worrisome. - It's worrisome. - But I will tell you though, the secret of my Duke fandom is that I go to the games, and I love all the people involved, and they are so kind to me in inviting me to everything. Like, I have been, like, for instance, mic'd up to talk about sports, programming, before, with like sweet Ken Jong,

and everything. The big joke is that everyone knows that I don't know what's going on.

I do a lot of aggressive clapping, and a lot of like, second people started with the UUU,

I'm like, "You, you, just randomly pointing." And a lot of whispering, "What's going on?"

we ran really fast." - And our team put it in basket in more than the other teams. - But emotionally, I'm very attuned to what's happening and the highs and lows. And you're right in there with the crazies. So for those, those who don't know who the Cameron crazies are, they are an incredible, like, hive-mind of basketball fans that have been very well known nationally. They were some of the, I think maybe even before like,

late in the early, people knew about the Cameron crazies because they come up with these incredibly creative, and sometimes a little over the top in appropriate distance. - There's truth as I came to Duke when I was 25, a little bit of baby. My walked around on campus with my parents, and my dad put it's arm around me, and he said, "If you have a leave a place like this, I'll kill you." - Yeah, that's amazing. - It's amazing. - Quite nice. And we grew up on the edge

of the University of Manitoba, which always begins the academic year by testing maneuvers.

And because we lived on the edge of campus from our yard, we could just smell the learning. - So I think my parents were pretty pleased. - We need to hold this experience tight to lock me in here. - Okay, so when people, you go to a cocktail party and they say, "Hey, what do you do for a living?" So how do you describe what you do? - I'm a huge bummer. - Immediately straight off the bat. - Oh my gosh, it's bad. It's so bad out there.

“But the truth is, I am a historian and I study the cultural scripts we tell about”

in particular success and suffering, and whether we frankly like deserve the lives we have. - Do we? - I mean, you and C-Fan probably don't have fun. - This is why I want to start with this. - Sorry. - Okay. - Yeah, fair enough. - Fair enough. Okay, so I have, if you can tell, I've like dog-yared and underlined. - Oh, so many, I love this book. So, and your new book toy

for anyway, you talk about the ache. - Yeah. - What's the ache?

The ache is this awful, bitter, sweet longing. We feel like we're looking for something and we can never

find it. That is inside of us at all times and we feel like a narcissist, if we say it out loud, like, is it just me? Why do I want more? Why do I feel like this is never enough even though I made all my gratitude lists? - Yeah. - So this, I think what's fun about teaching in a divinity school is you can wander the hallways nursing personal problems disguised as theological controversies, love it. - So there's a lot of like knocking on people's doors, be like,

is there something wrong with me? The answer is yes, but there is a lot of lovely historical theological language for that feeling that sense that we all feel restless and like there's a piece missing in us. So the question is then, what do we do with all of this churn? Do we optimize it? Do we pretend it's not there? Or is there something, is there a different direction where we can take it? - Can we take a little bit of time and like,

sort of pinpoint that ache? Because I feel like the way that you describe it, I bet you everyone

“listening was like, oh, I think I have that, but you have to like locate it to me, it seems like.”

Like what, what was your, when did you notice the ache and what brought that? - Yeah. - About. - Well, I noticed it most in the worst moments of my life. I had a stage four cancer diagnosis when I was 35 and in that moment, all the plans I made were gone in an instant and that feeling of being stripped down to the studs and you look around at everybody's life and you feel like you're so hungry, you could starve to death. That feeling is, it was so raw to me then, but I think I can

feel it. I mean, I think we all, we, we feel it when we feel love, we feel it when we look at our kids and we want to like eat them up, we love them so. And then they won't stay with us. Those little bastards. - Well, thank you. - They live with me forever. - Is that weird? - I don't think it's weird. - We, our loves make us feel achy, our, our incomplete relationships, the thing we wish that our

dad would say to us and might never or the apology we wish we got from a friend or the job we thought

would be more meaningful and then isn't. I think knowing that the ache is really loud in particular

“seasons, but that the truth is it is so intimately connected to the very best parts of us. We really”

can't escape the fact that every good thing will always, always, almost make us cry. And so I think we, I think we were all, at least I was told that that meant that there was that I just hadn't figured out how to square the circle on this, but I've, I really think that the more language

fact that this is probably exactly what makes us human. - Kim and I went into walk yesterday and tried

to identify our aches. - Oh, that's awesome. More on this after these words. - We call it a lace walk. It's like a lace roll. - It's a little lace walk. - It's a little lace walk. - It's a little lace walk. It was really nice weather. So we're our lace walk. - And I love you guys. - And it's so cute. - Our lace, it's a nice piece. - It's a nice piece. - It's a nice piece. There's a lot of olds. - There's an alpha leisure walking through the woods. - It's just beautiful. - Yeah. Our Sonna is his life and so we're like, I don't

have to do anything. - Yeah. - So weird. - So yeah. But so I was trying to identify my number, pretty happy person, but I have this like monthly, monthly is interesting. I don't even think it's like that, but this root right by the way, we want that get this feeling that like it's all gonna end. That's mortality. - Right. - Is that different from the ache or is that the same thing? It's really strong. It bums me out for several minutes. And then I'm okay. - Yes. Yeah. Well, I think that roaring feeling.

I mean, mortality is another way of just reminding us that everything we want, we could only have for a moment. - Yeah. - And even like no matter how many people tell us like, just be present. - Make laundry sacred. I think we're talking about something that's like, it's more because

“like, and that's what the word existential is for. Like, these are the big questions that sometimes”

feel like lead in our stomachs. And it's because they're asking us to confront this deep mystery of trying to live with all of this beauty and want and fear and desire and then bottle it up and it still be Tuesday. So, I just again. - Again. It's Tuesday again. So, the ache is not failure. - No. - The ache is part of human existence. You know, sometimes people write words and you're like, oh my god, it's what I feel. You'd written something about, because part of my ache is,

I get, I actively, in mourning all the places I'll never go. Like, I see on TV, you know,

like the apple that has like the pause screens and they're like going over mountains. I'm like, I need to watch this because I'm never going to see it in real life. - Oh my gosh. - Yeah, that's exactly what I, when, right before we move my grandpa into hospice, that's exactly what he would do. - He would watch the changing screen savers. And with his cute little grouchy voice, he'd go, I wonder where that is. - That's me. I'm your grandpa. So, okay, so I have this ache.

“I've come to terms with it. Like, how do we deal with it? - Yeah. - How do we go on?”

How do we grieve this? I think if we treat it like it's all this energy, it's like an engine. And we can put it in, we can definitely move it in the wrong direction. And I think one of the wrong directions we immediately reach for is our New Year'sselves. So optimization is very tempting and as an avid consumer, I really got it. And I think we're sold, I mean, the wellness industry is at this

point of 12 billion dollar year industry selling us a story about how we can conquer in like 12

easy steps, or 10 easy steps, but if I even, if you really want to get to it, and it could be your breath work, it could be your gratitude, it could be your supplements, vitamin C, it could be your, I think that you are in the self-help space in a different way in talking about spirit and soul, and mind, what's your take on all of this all of the self-help? - Well, because I'm, I'm actually writing a history of self-help right now, so I do have a hundred years of self-help

that I have just recently read. - Wow. And so I do, part of why I'm so fascinated by this is American culture, in particular, is obsessed with this belief that they can heal themselves, love themselves, eat themselves whole, and they're, in fact, the number one consumer of the product that they make globally. And it's such a particularly American sense of urgency that they need to solve the ache through what turns out to be unbelievably expensive. - Solutions,

and I guess, in particular, when I was trying to figure out this joy project, it made me realize that there's such a strong relationship between the health and wellness industry and the version of happiness that we're being sold, because happiness is, I mean, just from a neurological standpoint,

“it's a sense of ease, it's the feeling that your life is adding up to something, and it turns out”

it's like, it is quite expensive. And so self-help and happiness, of course, were a good vibes culture now, but some of us are not lucky enough to keep being that happy. So what's there for

what's joy? Joy is, well, it's amazing, because it hits all those dopamine centers, it makes you thankful and eyes open and so excited, but it also engages with our stress systems, which is what really helps explain why you can still feel joy in the middle of a funeral or an awful hospital moment, or why is it then that joy can just visit you, even in difficult moments, or bored moments, or, and it's because joy is this brief and liveening soul and large moment where you just say,

"Yes, oh my gosh, it's so amazing to be alive." - Yeah. - Like, for one second, you feel like everything

is okay, even if nothing is okay, and I just think it's such a comforting thing to know that everyone can experience joy, even if they can't always be happy. So the bumper stickers say, "Choose joy." - Which puts a lot of pressure on me, because like, "Yes, I choose it," but then it becomes like, "Well, crap, how do I, how do I find it, it seems like another thing, that it's my fault if I'm not finding it." - It definitely is your fault. - For sure, you specifically,

right? - Just come. - Well, I think that's because they're trying to put joy in the same paradigm as that self-help impulse. - Yeah. - If I've stepped plans to, and the thing is, you really can't

choose joy, because you can't, "Choose a surprise," and you can't surprise yourself, even though

“that's why I brought you here today. - Come on out! - Look under your chairs! It's joy!”

So on the other side of the joy spectrum, I feel like I'm connecting with you on some things already, just with little things that you've done, like you were talking, and you were like, "Well, we had to take my relative to a hospice." And I'm like sitting here thinking, "Joy chooses me sometimes at completely an opportune times." Like, I have, where are you left? - Are you going to tell us story about your dad dying? - Oh, I could! That wasn't where I was going with that, but sure!

- Yeah, I was on the layer. - I mean, I do. So I had my dad died of dementia, my mom's in the late stages of dementia, and for starters, last night, we were watching this Alzheimer's commercial,

and I always scream at the TV during Alzheimer's commercials, because they don't know how to do it.

It's very easy. - It's like the mom going like, "Yeah." - And then she takes it. - And she's like, "Whoa!

“Wait a minute, I know where you are! Here's the truck you buy. That's what, that's what.”

And so when I yell at it, everyone in my family laughs, and that's totally inappropriate screaming at a Sunday. - Yeah, but that's it. - Yeah, so when my dad died, the thing that I remember the most was I know exactly when he died, because we were door-dashing salsa fresh. - Because we didn't know how a lot, I mean, it's time, and so we're all sitting there in a way. - And so I got an email at 7, 13pm from Salt from Door-dash saying, "We're sorry, your bottle of water is not available.

We've replaced it for an additional $2.13 with a 32-ounce Mountain Dew." Because they thought that would be what I would want. - It's the most creepy thing you can possibly put in your body. So I started railing on Door-dash, and everyone's doing a laughing, and then the woman comes in and she goes, "I'm sorry, he's gone." - So, that was-- - No, we weren't tackling. We weren't patling. We weren't patling.

- It's like, she just said it's perfect. Okay, so tell me why that's perfect, because it felt

“perfect. - It felt perfect. Honestly, it took me forever to try to figure out that feeling,”

because the bottom is dropping out, and then you get this surreal crazy feeling of pure, odd joy. And that feeling, there's this lovely Frederick Nietzsche quote that says, "If you've ever said yes to one pain, if you've ever said yes to one despair, then you have said yes to all joy is all, and just lists the whole human condition. You say yes to it all." And in the middle of something awful, when you feel every trap door open, it's like you see the whole of everything all at one time.

And I think it's this-- it becomes this story about how it's still good. It's good to be in your life. It's good to feel so much love that it's breaking you. And I think the moments where we can say yes to it all, that's our like matrix moment, where-- and then we go back to our regular brains, but for one minute, we see the fullness of our life, and it nothing-- everything matters and nothing matters. If that was a drug I'd buy it. People-- people do interesting things. Actually, there is a funny

relationship between like, why is it that we can't just have, I can't we use drugs for joy? And there's all kinds of very interesting things about what joy is-- but what's interesting is joy is not

ness of your real life, you live inside of your actual experience. And I kind of like the fact that joy is almost like for one second, you get a 360. To really bring the mood up, you are diagnosed to stage for cancer at 35. So what's your favorite colonoscopy prep? Oh my gosh, guys, guys. I'm in over the jokes. I'm in over the jokes. Yeah. I mean, it's so it's the worst just awful. The whole park, because I have to get them all the time. All the time. All the time. All the time. All the time. Oh my

new favorite thing is having sort of emotional interventions with the anesthesiologists. I helped one the other day pick a better college for her kid. The surgery got delayed because I was so insightful on so many drugs. That's like, guys, guys, guys, guys. My favorite moment was, you know, the

“moment where you turn and you have to expose your posterior to the world. Yes. And then I was like,”

I pointed at the doctor and I was like, I heard you went to Yale. I went to Yale too. We're peers. Just like, put myself under. I picked my little drugs in my nose and I just thought it was so funny.

I was here. I always try to tell a joke as I'm because I'm like, I met every other year kind of

girly and I always try to tell a joke. Oh, the best part is my gastroenterologist who I've had since I moved here is the dad of a girl in my son's class. So we see them. So I saw, we saw like during COVID with mascot and he's like, oh, Kim, not used to seeing you and he was going to say with the math gun. I was like, with pants. And then I introduced a better parent. So I'm like, hey, this is Dr. blah, blah, blah. We do butt stuff. He's like, he's like, can you stop talking?

He's the one who picked the job. He, it's my butt. Oh, my God. And you could just have like, Hispanic shorts and then endless terrorway pants around him. I would be so happy. You know, it's Kevin. Wait, so you're like, you're on the anesthesia and you're able to talk. Like, they put that thing in me and I'm like, any of them. You got to look, you got to steal yourself. You got to want it for long. Just in for longer. You got to keep focused. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I

“take my own little thing. And now just I put my own little drug. And the truth is I had so many”

awful surgeries related to cancer. I'm on my ninth belly button at this point. So I had so much medical trauma, frankly. And I just found that I would try to practice weirdly. I think this is

kind of how I found joy most often in hospitals is because it was always the worst place I'd ever

been with the worst moments of my life. And I realized, well, sorry Kate, you have to keep going there. So every time I went, I would just try to first of all be able to picture the room a little better, like the smells, the sounds, the things that might be triggering. And then I would try to see if there was, you know, because there's always that nurse that reaches for your hand or, but I hate the blood work most of all. So I would pretend to say that the nurse who is there

was actually a vampire who wanted my blood for his own purposes. And it's going to ask to be left alone. And by the time he was like gently stroking me inside of my elbow, it's like, first of all this is going too far. But second, it made me laugh so hard forcing other people to play my dumb games that it opened up more kind of emotional freedom in me. So yeah, I find joy is something I can find at the hospital because I can do that first stage, which is I can stay awake. I find that the people

that have been through the most in their life, like I've a dear friend who lost a daughter and then she got cancer herself. I mean, beyond, beyond, beyond, beyond. And she has the, she finds the joy way more often than my ass does. So like, what is it about just grief and despair that opens your eyes

to that? Yeah. Well, it was always a question for me because I grew up with a lot of depression in my

family. My dad was really significantly depressed. And so our whole home was quiet and sad. And like brittle. And it became a question like, well, is joy just like unavailable to some people or some people immune to joy? If you feel that much sorrow or sadness or grief or just like that awful existential flatness that depressed people get, does that mean that joy is only for

“some people and others? And I think it's really so refreshing to be around people who have really”

had a before and an after and to realize, like, joy is for everyone and joy doesn't want to miss you.

if you're going to find a way because fear is going to keep you small and brittle. And so,

I mean, the other joy killer, frankly, is routine. Hyper efficiency, hyper focus on just what you plan on getting down that day. Those people are hard to interrupt and joys and interruption.

“So I think maybe sometimes the reason why people have gone through something really awful,”

our better at joy is because they already know that life can come apart in an instant. So if the bad thing can also happen in an instant, like maybe the lovely thing can, too. So routine creates this fear that keeps you from joy. What about like manners? Go on. Well, I just like, why are the things I love about you? And you appear to not saying you don't have good manners. But like, I called you sir when I came in. But people are supposed to, like,

hold their tongue when something like intrusively funny creeps into their head. And you don't appear to have that filter. And that's got to be kind of liberating, right? As far as like the joy is much more accessible to people. I mean, this is a compliment. Do you have manners to them?

“Do you have you lose manners to others overrated? Well, I think that I need to perfect”

example of why this is why I love studying cultural scripts. It manners are cultural script. I just think some of the cultural scripts we live inside, like suffocados. And one of them is that like that we have to pretend in the middle of an awful thing that we're so grateful and still learning a lesson. That one I find deeply gracious. So you're not going to make me learn a lesson sir. Yeah. No. So I do like the idea of like practicing which scripts you want to break.

Okay. I'm in which scripts. I mean, you seem to have broken a lot of scripts in your life. And again, you keep laughing like I'm jealous of you that you can do all these things because you do seem to have like pure joy. I think it's partly just the randomness of life. Like, yes, me. Like, the, and just even the sheer volume of bad things that keep happening to me and I keep having to yell is this how I die in a new situation. Like, when I was walking in by suburban

neighborhood and then I was bitten when I thought was an evil fire ant, but it turns out was a baby poisoned as copper had like on a mold lawn. And I had to be invented to the tune of about $200,000. Yeah. And she was like, I don't think I should be limping. She writes about this. What a what a middle-age mom thing to say. Yeah. I probably have made a mistake here. It's my fault because I can't walk. It's my fault that I'm limping and should probably be rushed to the hospital.

Well, I did try to easy breezy walk-in doctor and they scream. They're like, "Get out!" Call an ambulance. Like, "What's wrong with you?" I was like, "Okay, but in terms of breaking scripts, what was so fun is that when you imprisoned, you get to yell like going through the meta-comment metal detector. I've been poisoned. Being asked to fill up very small and reasonable

notes of paperwork. I've always been just bypassed." And like, when else can you say that? Exactly.

They keep this serum in one little refrigerator in the back of a hospital and they're like $20,000 a shot. Seriously, for snakes in the room. Yeah. Well, they made a fresh for me. Or else it's because of it's the slow-bready treatment. But I did get fresh $100,000. $1,000. Well, I did use that. You're in sure timing. They're like, "Do you want to keep your house?" That was that. Cancer, man. Can't say venom. This seems like a good time to promote the book.

“Well, also, what does Joy look like? Is the aches still there when Joy comes to surprise you?”

Or does Joy erase the aches? Joy will be the moment where honestly nothing matters. And it'll feel like the full everything else is the deepest, most lovelyest kind of okay. And it is so good to be alive. It's like the big yes. More on this after these works.

Anytime you ask anybody, what their happiest, most joyful moment is, they always say,

"Well, it was the day I got married and it was the day that my children were born." Like that's like this. Right. Yes. I bet your joy, the joyful moments are a lot more creative than those. Can you think of some that maybe you would not have expected to have been your most joyful moments?

the Yukotastrophe. It could have been one way, it could have been a catastrophe, but it wasn't.

“It was beautiful. And I think sometimes when people get married or they have a baby like they're”

in that moment, they're so relieved. It could have been one way. And now it was this. And I think Joy has that a huge part of that feeling. Like it feels like not just happiness. It feels like grace. Like we're so lucky we could explode. And so, yeah, I mean, the day they put my huge pumpkin head frog, I'd be in my arms. And I said, it was you. It was you the whole time. I thought I would die of joy. But I think knowing that Joy is really, I mean that Joy can kind

of break in is nice. In the worst moments right after my diagnosis, I felt like really weirdly, weirdly bubble wrapped love for about two months. Like in a way that I couldn't gospel when my colleagues anymore in a way that I wanted to. I felt that much love that I wasn't

even petty anymore. It was like creepy and amazing. That's divine. I mean, that's just like sometimes

Joy, like just carries us. And I do, I really do think that when we are brokenhearted, we do have a God who loves the brokenhearted. So I do think that when in our worst moments, there's often like a little, a little experience of grace that people can tuck away for later and say, like, wow, even if all, if every basement door opens, and there's going to somehow be like there, what's like an instant, I need a hit a joy, like what makes you laugh every time. Like,

my kid is killer. Yeah. I mean, he's like right now he dug a six foot trench in the backyard.

“That's what he wants. He just disappeared. A three hours later, I just saw a world war two”

helmet pop up slowly and then lower at the end fully dug a trench like destroying our property value. And he's like, he was having a horrible day. And I was like, which he came home with pizza and in a psychological, um, just like a really interior movie about Churchill's feelings about his cabinet. Okay. And I was like, oh, mom, thank you. And like, just jokes on jokes on jokes with this one. And I don't know. It's so good. I love that. Mine is like pimple pop in videos, but yours is

much better. Rose, I love Rose. It makes my brain all tinkled. You're disgusting. No, I love them when I love it so much. For kids, um, to start reading about World War II documentaries at 12 is like way ahead of the usual like 50-year-old dad guy who starts looking at these things. That's like, man, I really got to get into presidential biographies. Yeah. What was it like for Garfield? Not the lasagna one on visit. So when you appear to have had a lot of awful things happen to you,

you also appear to have fewer regrets than most people or like, like wishing that they did it to go on different. Well, I love regrets. I do. I'm a very, yes, yes, to regrets person, because

almost always at the end of a celebrity interview, they'll go, and it made me who I am to do that.

And I don't believe it. I miss everything I used to be. I miss all the stuff I used to have, I miss my third belly button. This one's poor. Well, it's not good. I hate it. And I have huge regrets about, you know, just time of mist and relationships I don't have, things I wish were different. I places I wish I had been that I just, there's a whole decade I wish I could have made different choices. But I think our regrets and our ability to look honestly at the

past to say, man, this really cost me. It helps me believe that we have to find other ways to make our time more valuable than just the regular math. Like, I, if I can't, I really, I don't think

that I'll always be able to be happy. I have so much chronic pain. I'm like constantly having to

“like pay insane amounts of money for treatment that just like isn't very yet. Like, it life is”

going to be hard. So if it's going to be hard, what's going to be so rich and good that it could happen anywhere at any time and doesn't all need to add up. So that's why I'm like, I'm like in it for the jokes. I'm like in it for the joy. So you do, you have a lot of regrets. They just don't appear to be like, eating you alive. I will list my resemblance and ever them to people on airplanes of particularly like, you asked me about my brother. Well, I'll tell you. Well, don't think I won't

due to my nice school. So I do like my little teacher teach and then I lock myself in my hovel and I cry in front of my monitor. And that's my process. That's my journey.

“And then when I come out, I'm like, okay, it's a book. It's done. And that's what happens.”

I love you. It's like, and I'm not just takes it now. It's right. Like, that's a book. Okay, you talk about like putting yourself in the way of joy. Like, it's a Tuesday. It's about to start writing like, how can I put myself in the way of joy today? Like, what does that look like for you? Yeah, there's I think really good advice. It's attributed to a manual account. And I think it's

it's a good little like primer for figuring out where joy might be found. And the first is,

he says, find someone to love. And there's a weird alchemy to loving other people and getting involved in their strange problems. And then something happening. So I do think there's an intimate relationship. And it's funny. It sounds like a public health warning, but joy is incredibly socially contagious. It's actually quite hard to be joyful by yourself. So go be with other people and get into what they're into. And something will emerge. Find something to do.

There's a very intimate relationship between joy and service. I mean, it should be that when we give, we have less. Yeah, and it sucks for us. But strangely it's the opposite. The more you give, you oddly find yourself wrapped up in this story of how the less we focus on ourselves,

“the more something beautiful happens. So find something to do. And I think the last is find something”

to hope for. The more we are telling a story that is more beautiful than the one we have. We are going to, we are going to imagine a world in which joy is for us. And it will find us. I have some family members who I adore, who I think they believe that the path to joy is just working really, really hard. I just let me. You weren't the first person that left to my end. Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah, there were, there were others. I do think that you work very hard.

But, but, but who believe it, that is the true path. Yeah. To joy. Yeah, I mean, I am from a men and night background. Don't think we can't raise a barn and kill our own happiness. Don't think you don't know what it's like to hate our lives. We do.

And I do think sometimes for people who work hard, especially, I mean, there's 130 million

Americans right now, who are actively caregiving in a way that they can't fill their own cup, pursue their own joy. I mean, it's ridiculous to imagine that especially most women have the time or the resources to do anything other than work or care for other people's needs. And sometimes in those contexts, joy can feel for a like frivolous, why, first of all, who has the time and then why do something extra? And I know from my men and night background, like,

anything extra is just like, you didn't get a good deal at the buffet line. Like, you got to maximize everything you have and not want more. I think, I mean, this is, I think, honestly, this is why joy isn't just a nice emotion, why it's divine, why it's actually like a gift we get from God is we're, we're given stuff as ridiculous and unnecessary as joy to remind us that

it actually doesn't matter what we do. Like, like, good for us for working so hard, but we were never

actually meant to be robots that were evaluated that way. Like, just who we were, day we were born, the day we die, when we're useless to others, when we are unbelievably useful to others. Like, we have the same inherent unshakable worth and I think joy does a good job of reminding our robots all that before all of that, we were still worthy. I'm just going to play Kate's voice and repeat my brain when I start questioning things. Okay, where can people find your book? Oh, joyfully,

anyway, it's found this one. However, books are sold, particularly your favorite indie. I also did the audible version where I just have, I have my own private thoughts, which I then forced them to record. So, I feel like I get a lot of bonus features. Oh, I love that. I love that and you grow onto her. Oh my gosh, there's so much to her. There's so much to her. So much to her. It's two months

“of me comes to me in all the places. I think, okay, and where can they find working people find it?”

It's Kate Bowler dot com slash joyful anyway, is the tour schedule. What happens in the tour? Oh my god. I'm going to make it fun. Yeah, I know you are, but I can't wait to hear what I've got a surprise at the end. I do. Okay, can't talk about that. I mean, that's the best part

Yeah, well, this is so exciting. I'm so excited for the rest of the world to get to read read your word. So, thank you for coming to our attic to share some joy with that. You guys are so fun. I love you. I love you. Okay, through the magic of the internet, poof, we are back to our normal set. I feel so much joy when I'm around Kate. Right.

“My new best friend who doesn't know you. I think I love watching you make new friends.”

For those of you who don't know when Kim makes a friend, it's like a friend for life. For me, no, I'm kidding. I usually try to keep my friends as well, but so like just as far as the meat of the conversation, what really stuck out for you. Joy is available and I think that where from where I sit, I do get bogged down and like the things I need to do today. She said something about like, you know, when you're so stuck in your

routine, it's hard to kind of like look up and notice. And I think that's I need a routine

and maybe I just need to leave more space for moments of joy because it's always available.

And also, when I first of all, you guys have to get this book. It's so great. She references the ache. And I guess it was it's comforting to know that everybody feels that, you know, in some way. I talked about my ache. What specifically, what does your ache look like? I ache shifts. I feel like, you know, when it's, uh, our, you know, kids are doing great. I feel like on my top of the world, if a kid is having a struggle, like I always have that annoying feeling, right? Because I love

them so deeply. And or if it's a something in our work that could have been better or something that could have gone a different way, I feel like I was, I thought that was just me being a more negative person. But the way she describes it and puts it, I'm like, oh, that's just the human condition. Even the most happy people on the planet, they've all got this ache. Yeah, I hate that other people feel that too, but also it's oddly comforting to know that. Yeah. Okay. So we do this in every podcast.

And it's, it's sort of, if you're a loyal listener, it's, it's, it's taken on many shapes. We started calling it pens nugs, pens nuggets of wisdom. But the three things, the three pack that

pen took from this podcast, we were waiting for a nugs sponsor never happened. Then because of my

cookie cake obsession, we changed it to like, how did cookie crumbles? Yeah, we changed it to style was a cookie.

“But now we should head to the last line because I think we got another. We're going to suggest,”

okay, great. Let's hear it. Thank you. This is Julie from Oregon. And I just listened to a couple of your podcasts. And you were talking about, you needed a replacement for the pens nuggets. So I say, no new nugget. Instead, you need more tools that matter or matter anymore. It's really fun. But the great work. Thanks for making this last. You guys are great. And you really matter to my day. And I get a lot of housework done listening to your podcast because we're

keeps me going. And they want to keep working because I want to keep listening. So thank you. But I think you need more tools that matter. Talk to you guys later. Bye. And we just had a whole podcast on mattering. Yeah. I love that. I see some good opportunities. I see one small drawback. What is that? Okay. The, the opportunity is a morsel. What do we think of? We think of a chip. A chocolate chip, right? Great. So if you make me into a chocolate chip, what does that look a lot like? A little bit

like poo. Like dokey. So could you make him into poo right now? I think I'm going to have to be a big chocolate chip. It's going to look great. Okay. What are your morsels that matter, Pat? Okay. I had three. Okay. You just said one of them. So I may like do a replacement. Okay. Number one, joy is unexpected. That's like the definition of joy. Like she delineated the difference between joy and happiness. Mm-hmm. Where joy is something that that creeps in without you

“realizing and that it's like something you should be receptive to and enjoy and never be embarrassed”

to feel no matter how inopportune of a time it could happen. Yeah. Um, so joy is unexpected. I loved one of the things she said joy can carry you. She talked about how one of her most joyful moments was right after she got her stage four cancer diagnosis and felt bubble wrap loved by people in her community and that was joy that again, she was receptive to understood, didn't feel guilty about feeling happy about something as this was happening and like it carried her. That was really cool.

And like so my number three was going to be um that routine gets in the way of joy. Mm-hmm.

You said that. So that's fine. My new third morsel is maybe don't introduce your husband as the

person who hates the team that your guest loves the most as the first thing in the show was my

we immediately and I'm wearing these shoes but I thought that would be subtle. Yeah. I loved this show

“and I love Kate Boler and yeah. Well that's that. If you loved her so much, why don't we ask her”

to come back and read the credits? Through the magic event, the internet hears Kate Boler reading

our show credits. Laff lines is written and produced by Kim Holdenass, Penn Holderness,

“and Anne Marie, who is pretty good with original music by Penn Holders. Oh, that's cute. Nice.”

It is filmed edited and live produced by Sam Allen and hosted by Acast. That's a good one.

That's a really good one. As always, we'd love to hear from you. Please write to us at podcast

“at TheHoldernessfamily.com and leave a voicemail at 323-364-3929. We swear that's a real”

number. We have a win. We'll talk to you soon. We have a win. We have a win. We'll talk to you soon. We have a win. We have a win. On the Laff line. Yay! You did it!