Your perfectionism isn't a problem -- if you know how to use it

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deadline. Stay caught up on the week's biggest stories with up first, listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts. Would you call yourself a perfectionist? Ah, it depends what we're talking about, you know, it takes me a thousand years to write

things, and I don't ever want to show you my car, my car is a hazard. Oh, that's funny. So like opposite extremes, yes, yeah, it depends, it depends as the answer. What about you? No, I definitely feel like I am one, have always been one, and I'm trying to get better

at that, which is kind of funny, because I'm even a perfectionist about being a perfectionist. You're trying to get better at it. Yeah, like there's something wrong with it.

“People talk about perfectionism, like it's a character flaw, or something you need to be”

curative. And I guess I've taken that on myself, I've absorbed that idea, you feel like it's a bad thing. Hmm. I think when you hear the word perfectionist, there's like this one image that pops into

your head, right, like maybe someone who likes to get things done in a certain way or like needs everything to be just so, um, but what I learned reporting this episode is that perfectionism doesn't have to be a negative trait, and it's something that you can harness. See, I like that.

That makes me feel better about myself. It makes me feel better, too. You're listening to LifeKit. I'm Mariel Sagadra, and I'm talking with LifeKit reporter Andy Tagle, who interviewed psychotherapist in author Katherine Morgan Schaffler in 2023.

She wrote a book called The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control, a path to peace and power. So, she wrote this book after spending years in private practice on Wall Street, which is a location that attracts a lot of high-powered, high-achieving women with careers and things like big law and finance.

“So, many of those clients, perhaps unsurprisingly, are perfectionists, right?”

Yeah, and what she found through that work is that there are actually five different types of perfectionists. Yeah, when I hear that, I immediately want to take a quiz, which type I am, and which spice girl are you, you know, which spice girl are you?

I think that I always wanted to be Jerry, but I was actually baby, and now, as a younger

last and now I'm sporty. Okay, you were a baby, son, and a Jerry Moon. Yes, sporty. Sporty rising. I guess.

We can move on, but I want to unpack that someday. Yeah, we need to. We need to. So, perfectionist can be type A, right, like intense and rigid and meticulous, but they can also be messy, or forgetful, or Losey Fair.

They can, like, resonate, or up-and-quit whole projects entirely, but what all of these different kinds of personalities have in common is potential.

“So, perfectionists see how the world around them can be better, and that's why”

perfectionism, when used in a healthy way, can be a really powerful force for change,

a sort of superpower. Absolutely. Well, on this episode of LifeKit, Andy is going to talk to Katherine about all the different ways perfectionism can show up and how we can harness it. Katherine, in the book, you say a lot of messaging around perfectionism is gendered.

Let's start there. Yes, well, I think language really helps control the way that we think about whether something is good or bad, and in turn, whether we are good or bad, and it kind of has this regulatory function where it teaches us how to be more of what we're quote-unquote supposed to be in the same way that the word bossy, for example, regulates authoritative qualities

and girls and women, and why there's no male version for the word bossy. That's kind of what perfectionism is turning into. And so I wanted to write this book to nip that in the bud, and just to say, before this becomes something that floats around for the next five or ten years without us realizing what we're doing, which is quelling the ambition and expressions of power and women by

pathophologizing perfectionism at Nazium, and then telling women to find balance, which is a directive that is given to women so much all over the place, an advertising, food, and podcasts, and in mommy blogs, just everywhere. Katherine, what's wrong with messaging about just finding balance? Well, balance in its original definition of energetic equilibrium is healthy, but balance

is not to say that she's hit her sweet spot of energetic equilibrium. It is to say that she can juggle so many tasks and give her another thing and she won't drop the ball, look at her go. And that is nothing to do with health, and what kind of balance we're offering to women

is elusive, it never comes, and we don't notice that it's not here and that it's not real

because we're too busy blaming ourselves, that it's not here yet because we're constantly getting the message of like, if you just had an InstaPot, you could be balanced, if you just woke up when we're earlier, you could be balanced, and I think perfectionists are people who are not balanced, and who are constantly told, you know, slow down, you're

“doing too much, you need to be balanced as if we're, you know, as if balance means health”

when it doesn't anymore. Yeah, absolutely. Just find balance, that's all you need to do to find balance. One, perfectionism isn't a bad word or a slight, it's a neutral quality, a tool that

when used correctly can be powerful.

So I think of perfectionism as a natural human impulse, one that is healthy, and perfectionists the way I define and understand the term are people who more often than not see the gap between the reality and the ideal, and long to bridge the gap, and not only long to bridge that gap, but feel actively compelled to do so, and how you pursue the ideal, and why you pursue the ideal, those are the factors that determine whether your perfectionism

is healthy or not, if we go to the how, are you pursuing the ideal in a way that hurts you or exploits or hurts other people around you, and if we go to the why, are you pursuing the ideal because you think achieving, you know, one goal after the next is going to certify your belonging into some group or some sense of self-worth or some kind of external validation,

“and there are healthy reasons to pursue the ideal, and I think it's actually, you know,”

one of the forces that make the world go around, next up, take way to, people chase their version of perfect in a lot of different ways, there's nothing wrong with longing to bridge the gap between your reality and your ideal, but be wary of how and why you pursue perfection, because there are pros and cons for every type of perfectionist, yes, so the classic perfectionist is what comes to mind when we all think about the perfectionist, so this is

somebody who is highly organized, buttoned up, and they are going to do what they said they're going to do when they said they would do it in the way that they said that they would do it, and each type of perfectionist has pros and cons, and the pros of classic perfectionist

“is that they're highly reliable, and they add structure to any environment they enter,”

the cons are that they can sometimes not be as spontaneous or welcome collaboration, and those are qualities which tend to engender connection, and so being with a classic perfectionist, whether it's in a family system or a work system, can sometimes end up feeling more transactional, and this hurts both the people around the perfectionist and the perfectionist themselves because classic perfectionists can tend to feel undervalued for all that they do.

Then there's the procrastinator perfectionist, and the procrastinator perfectionist

waits for the conditions to be perfect before they start, and of course that never happens,

so procrastinator perfectionists tend to ruminate, and that's part of the negative qualities of this type, and on the positive side they can prepare so well, they can see things from a 360 degree angle, they can really understand all the different legs of decisions, and they are not impulsive, which can be a real asset, but of course they have real challenges around getting projects off the ground because they just encounter so much anxiety around

beginnings. What about messy perfectionists? The messy perfectionist is in love with beginnings. They can start anything effortlessly, just breeze through all the anxiety that a procrastinator

of a process, and the TDM that is involved and staying committed to goals and carrying out those goals, they can kind of lose interest and lose energy, because the middle isn't perfect. It doesn't match the perfect romanticized energy around starting, and I want to make a side note to say that all of these types of perfectionists can be expressed in lots of different contexts,

so you can be a messy perfectionist when it comes to dating, and love going on the first date,

love the second date, and then the third date you're like, this person is chewing really loudly. And I don't like this, and I don't know where this conversation is going, and this is not whatever. Okay, how about intense perfectionists? This is the perfectionist that's kind of

“I think publicly we think of someone like Steve Jobs or Gordon Ramsay on a winter, as intense”

perfectionist. They have razor sharp focus, they are really great at generating outcomes. Sometimes they can prize the outcomes so much that they lose the sense of team building, for example, or relationship building in the process, and they get the outcome at the great expense and opportunity cost of everyone around them, sort of satisfaction, and sometimes even level of comfort or safety,

depending on whether you're having outbursts or not. Okay, and then finally,

per region perfectionists. So the per region perfectionist, the easiest way to describe it is that they want to be perfectly liked. And that is how this perfectionism manifests on a surface level, but on a deeper level, it's about wanting perfect connection, wanting perfect connection to

“themselves, to their community, to their partners, maladaptively expressed,”

per region perfectionism looks like people pleasing at the expense of sacrificing one's own sense of identity and pleasure. But on the on the pro side, per region perfectionists are genuinely warm

people who focus on inclusion, collaborate, well, love working with others, and they're

effortlessly inviting all of those things in. Thank you, know what kind of perfectionist you are. We'll get into what to do next after the break. This week on shortwave, you are what you eat may not be a phrase you associate with your mental health, but one in three people have insulin resistance in our country. And if you have insulin resistance, you are double the likelihood of developing major depression. We explore the link between

your body and your brain. Listen on shortwave, the science podcast from NPR. This is Tanya Mosley, Kahosta Fresh Air. Don't miss my interview with Coleman Domingo. We talk about Euphoria, filling in for Jimmy Kimmel, and doing comedy with comedy masters, like Tina Fey. They're like mad scientists. They almost look at the math of it. Find fresh air on the NPR app or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Sign up at plus.npr.org. Well, Katherine, you are a book taught me that I am mostly a Parisian perfectionist, and I feel

“both seen and attacked by this information. How is knowing your category helpful?”

Yeah, that's a great question. I offer all of these categorizations as perspectives and not the truth. I really offer these as starting places to begin to understand patterns and to say, what do I like about this pattern? What do I want to continue about that? How does this show up again in all of these different ways with my parenting, with my friendships, with dating, with work, with my family, in my own relationship to myself? And it's just a starting place to

begin to ask and answer those questions. Take away three. Understanding your particular brand of perfectionism can help you better see yourself and use that information to your advantage. For example, Katherine, you have a lot of tools in the book about ways to work with and reframe our type of perfectionism. One of those was understanding the difference between explaining and expressing something. Could you walk us through that idea? So explaining is saying what's happening.

happening. I am leaving work early because I am feeling stressed. When you only explain,

“I need this by tomorrow and you don't express. I need this by tomorrow because I had a”

conversation with the client today and I started to feel anxious about whether they're going to back out. When you only explain, it emphasizes this transactional, no team, no collaboration, no sense of actually knowing or connecting to the person, all that matters is the outcome and we just need to get it done. And it really makes people around you feel disconnected and it can make you feel disconnected to yourself. And if you only on the other hand express, which is what a

lot of messy perfectionist and parasian perfectionist tend to overindex on, then you're talking a lot about how you feel and what the experience of being you is like, but you're not actually asserting your wants or needs. And so you might say, I'm feeling really burned out. Okay, well, why don't you explain that you're feeling really burned out because you have been covering for someone who's been sick for three weeks and you can no longer do that.

You've realized that that's not tenable. And so I think that part of our communication patterns in some of these personality types can pop up and they're not necessarily bad. We don't need to subtract anything. We don't need to get rid of parts of who you are. We just need to add to help you connect more with yourself and others and help you understand yourself

and help others understand you better too. And finally, take away four. To better know when

your perfectionism is healthy or getting away from you, learn the difference between a control and the power. So control and power, like Luston Love, look very similar. They're not the same thing.

“Control is about manipulating. Power is about influencing. Control is my topic. If you have to”

plan everything one step at a time because what you do next depends on all the factors that you hire, you know, aware of and have information for, whereas power is really visionary. It allows you to take the luxury of taking great leaps of faith and being able to say no matter what happens with the outcome. I know who I am and what's important to me and I trust myself that I'll understand what to do next. Whereas control is more frantic. It has a desperate energy and an

attendant anxiety that other people around you can feel. And when we feel powerless we double down on superficial control and it backfires every time. In the moment it feels like being controlling is the responsible thing to do when you can't find your own power. What do we gain when we see

“control? So I think one of the reasons why people feel locked out of joy is because they haven't”

forgiven themselves for past versions of themselves that did or did not do something. And if you don't forgive yourself, you don't trust yourself. And if you can't trust yourself, you can't give yourself license to have power. You micromanage yourself. You try to control yourself. It's just

like a boss who doesn't trust their employee. They're going to be checking in every second on what

they do and they meet that person with suspicion instead of confidence. When you have that kind of relationship with yourself, you just cannot bring your full self to the table. You can't relax. And if you don't trust yourself, you're trying to move through life memorizing the right thing to do instead of trusting yourself and the way that you feel and whether on the most basic level, you feel good or non. Does being around this person make me feel good? Does being at this

job make me feel good? You don't trust yourself to do that. And so you just end up in your head. You're thinking, you're making pros and cons lists all day. You're denying your instincts any say in the matter. And you just can't, in my opinion, think yourself through your life. You have to be open. And to be open, you have to be able to say, I don't know what is coming

and in control at the same time. Katherine, thank you so much for talking with me today.

“Thank you. This has been such a pleasure.”

Three cap. Take away one. Perfectionism is powerful. You just have to learn to use it to your advantage.

Take away two. There are a lot of different ways to reach for perfection. There's nothing wrong with longing to bridge the gap between your reality and your ideal. But be wary of how and why you pursue perfection. Building on that. Take away three. Understanding your particular brand of perfectionism can help you better see yourself and work towards your strengths.

“Ask yourself. Are you hurting or helping the people around you in pursuit of your ideals?”

Does this action serve to connect or distance you from your values? Are you pursuing this ideal for the right reasons? Or are you seeking some kind of arbitrary external validation?

Finally, take away four. Seek power. Not control. Remember, as Katherine says,

you are perfect as is. Meaning you are complete and therefore worthy of rest and joy exactly as you are in this current moment. Don't wait for that mythical perfect balance or to

“achieve perfect personhood. Lean into your strengths and start trusting your own instincts”

today. Right now. You got this. That was reporter Andy Tagle talking to author Katherine Morgan

Schaffler. Before we go, if you have a moment, I was wondering, would you rate and review

life kit in your podcast app? Tell us a favorite tip that you've learned or what kind of episodes you'd like the best? We love hearing from you. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider, with help from Kayla Latamore. Our digital editor is Malaga Greeb and our visuals editor is CJ Reefleon. Megan Caine is our senior supervising editor and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Margaret Sereno and Sylvie Douglas,

engineering support comes from Jimmy Kealy. Special thanks to Darious Cook. I'm Mary Elcegata. Thanks for listening. Okay so you're driving to work or you're on a walk or you're at the gym or whatever and you just need to clear your head. That's the perfect time to hit the play button on NPR's all songs considered. It's not the news, it's not work or whatever else is weighing you down. It's just a good time with good friends and great tunes. Listen to all songs considered

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