Ep 622 - Am-I.Film (feat. Milo Reed)

- And how are we here? - Milo, what the fuck's up, dude? - What's up, man? - We've met under possibly the strangest circumstances of all time.

Just to give backstory, you're a filmmaker. Milo, as I'm now, new filmmaker. I'm sitting there, I remember I'm walking my dogs outside, my dog was shedding. I get a message from Kim Condon, she goes,

"Hey, what the fuck is this?" And it was just, I want a billboard, downtown Austin, and it just says, "Is AI conscious?" Or it just had my face, and I had your photo shop to suit and tie on me.

- Yeah. - Dude, we were just talking a massive billboard in the absolute heart of downtown Austin. I thought I was being tricked by AI,

“I'm like, you thought this was an AI sci-op or some shit?”

- I thought someone was using AI, like Megan a photo, and it was tricking people. - Oh, I got you.

- So I was like, and here's the thing,

I don't know if you know this about me, I lost for billboard exposure. - No, I didn't know this. - I've talked about just getting a billboard for no reason, and just putting my face on it,

but I still didn't fill it off you. - Yeah, there's the billboard on the billboard. - Oh, God, it's beautiful. - I've talked about this for years. I was like, I just want to get a billboard one day,

put my face on it, and the, but it's just advertised as nothing, people were like, what the fuck is that, and just I thought it was funny. - Dude, I'm happy that I could be out on the billboard. - You literally made my dream come true.

- The marketing, I've never seen better marketing. I was laughing with Cardini, I'm like, dude, I mean, there's some about the marketing, I just love, it's just my face. - Dude, that fucking came out of me being so pissed off

at marketing agencies, so like, we were broke, the entire time we were making this movie. - Yeah, yeah. - So you're playing the movie, so people are like, so the movie is like this documentary,

“it's called Am I like a question about AI consciousness,”

and it's about my buddy, like one of my close friends from college, who happens to be one of the leading AI consciousness researchers in the world. So I pretty much spent the last year, just like figuring out what the fuck that was,

that meant to like study AI consciousness, whether AI could be conscious, all this stuff. And so like dove into those murky waters. But at the end of this, like when we were going through

the edit, we finally got some cash from this

shout out Daniel Brockman, the skits-out dude from Thailand, like cracked out where his cat ears, like just trucking Corona's all day, he's the man, like the man, and he just sent us a money 'cause he liked this podcast that we were doing.

And so I was like beautiful. Like we can finally, this came at the perfect time, we can like figure out how to market this thing 'cause we were just gonna put it out on YouTube. Like we didn't wanna go through the whole festival thing

that was a year, all that stuff. And so he sends us this cash and I start talking to these marketing agencies and they're like, yo, you're fucked bro. Like you have no money.

Like call us back when you have 50k, we can't do anything for you. They were like we can send out some emails and stuff, but like, and so I got depressed for a week and I was like fuck, we have not like we can't do anything.

I was just listening to that. - So you did the podcast first and then once you gave me money, did the doc or you already had the doc? - No, so we already had the doc.

The podcast we did because my buddy Cam was like, we can't wait a year to start talking about this stuff. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- So like most people, they've never even heard of it before.

He's so deep in this world. He's like, this is about to blow up in whatever year or two years. If we don't start talking about this now, like it's gonna pass us by all the sort of like

battle lines are gonna be drawn and it's gonna be old news. - Yeah. - So the compromise was like, let's do a podcast first where we can start talking about this stuff. Wow, we filmed the doc.

- Yeah. - So when we got to this stage, we had the doc. It was already ready to go. We just needed to figure out how to actually get it out there and make sure it didn't just disappear into the YouTube what.

- Yeah. - And so these guys told me they were like, yeah, you're pretty much fucked. And my brother and I were just like finishing up the end of the score and it was like fucking six a.m.

And we were just completely like dog shit tired. And I turned to him and I was like, bro, what if we just spent all this money on a billboard? - And fucking, that's the billboard. (laughing)

- And now I'm here, that's fucking what I could have done. And again, obviously you're just, you know, you're applying to my major weakness just my own ego. - So I'm like, - Dude, but you know the photo. - You know the photo that was up there

that could do recognize that photo. - Yeah, that was, I was actually just as my headshot. That was my fucking, my tank top, headshot. - The tank top. - But we got, we got talked out of the tank top.

Because at the first one, we did so many iterations. We did it without the face too. And then we were like, no, like the face is the knockout punch. We can't do it, we can't do it without the face. And so we had it with the blue tank top at first.

And we started showing it to people and they were like, yo, like, you cannot put this man's face up there with like a tiny, skinny, like blue tank top in front of all of all. - That's used it for my headshot forever.

“- That's what I imagined, I thought the tank top,”

but I do like the class, I like the class of the suit. - I was like, kind of sick photo shot. - Yeah, it looks nice, right? (laughing) - That was a whole idea man, like, so you proposed

as your brother was like, what was he like? - No, he was like, let's fucking go. - That's a rippie, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause we both, I mean, we've been listening to a pod for like years, but yeah, yeah.

And we were like, yo, if this, even if like,

is like, we took out a fucking billboard with Matt's face on it, it's like win, win the last years of fucking win. And now it's like, dude, it's just basking and glory now, at this point.

- It was just too strong, first of all,

I love just an insane move. So I saw that and I'm like, that's fucking nuts. And I was just laughing so hard, 'cause I can't get any text like, what is this? Are you doing it?

I'm like, no, I don't know what it is. And that was laughing, being like,

“the people like, dude, you can see, you know what I'm doing?”

You can see that guy. And I was just laughing, like, that'd be so funny if I just sued the fucking pants off this dude. Even though I was tickled to see the billboard, dude. - Dude, I mean, it gets deep like,

I can't you see someone, I guess, well, yeah, it's your face. - Yeah, and this, I don't know, we're gonna have to check the legality on this, but like, I did have to, like, forge a fucking DM from you. So I went, like, deep, like, mission impossible shit.

- I can't respect it though, I do. I respect, they just wild move. - We had to do it at that point, 'cause I was like,

I'm not gonna spend all this money on fucking, like, meta.

It's like, no chance. And once we had the idea, it's like, we're gonna stop at nothing to make sure that this happens. - Yeah, yeah. - And so at the very end, we had it where it was just text.

And then they were like, and then we tried to pull the like, switch a rule, last minute, switch a rule, and just through the fucking face up there. - You're there, like, yo, you can't, like, do you have this guy's permission?

And so I just like, quickly put together

“a little Instagram DM of you being like, yeah,”

a little show. (laughing) - That's such a serious response. Obviously, I would've been like, go for it, I don't give a fuck, but.

- We just wanted to magic of it, just like popping up in your world. - And I'm so happy. - It was the strangest thing, it was just like, and it's just so funny that I've had this weird fascination

with billboards. So I was like, somebody's fucking weird, there's no way. - Dude, the universe, the universe made it out. - I think so. - And I kept getting all these texts,

like, broke the fuck, what is this? - What, what? - And my neighbor was like, why is your fucking face on a fucking, I don't know. - Dude, do you know the funniest thing about this, too,

is that it was, we paid for one month. And like, the billboard company hit me up a week before, it was supposed to come down. They were like, hey, we don't have another 10 in. - Right.

“- So it's just like, do you want us to leave it?”

- Oh, I'm just like, I'm just like, - I'm pleased you. - So it says I went and checked it out in person for the first time. - It's pretty cool. - It's glorious, man. - It's pretty cool. - The placement, oh yeah, whatever anyway, but also all the bird shit missed your face. - There's some like divine intervention. - Thank God.

- It would be brutal if you just had like a fucking little fool. - So you kind of cowboy the doc and then completely cowboy the marketing. - What you're getting? - I was like, what a maverick. I'm into maverick moves. It's one of my many weaknesses. A maverick move, I'm like, God, I have the respect, I'm like, that's amazing.

- It's amazing. - Meditian, yoga, jogging, not exciting. - Really? Michean Span, my story is total. - Steuja, how do you feel? The steuja is amazing. - Yeah, I've been watching over 1000 euros since I was a kid. - Have you ever had connections? - No, just like the steuja app.

- Wow. - And that's easy? - Of course, the most fun, all is automatic. - Suddenly I feel like I'm so exciting. Hold your money back, take your time with the steuja. - Our environment for your podcast is fresh and delicious from Aldi.

- Always good. Always good. Always great.

- Cut, say fresh for Aldi. - At Aldi price, this week, mini watermelon. - The kilo for only $1.29. - Or nectarines. - The one kilo for only $1.89.

- In a decade there are many other things in your Aldi Nord. - At Aldi Nord there are many other things in your Aldi Nord. - Good for Aldi Nord. - So you do that. Tell me about the dark. Tell me about what did you...

- It's a big question. - Is AI conscious? - Actually, before we even get into that, have you guys fielded a lot of this? There's a lot of emotion around AI.

Have you fielded like pot good and bad? What was that like going into it? Are you getting, I feel like AI inspires... - Just a lot of stuff. - Yeah, for sure. Like psychosis.

- Yeah, vitriol, like everything. - Yeah. - There's not a lot of nuance in it. And that's like what we were trying to do was make a doc that had some nuance.

And that could approach this question without all the extremism that seems to follow it. - Yeah. - And so coming out of it, what have we seen? It's been what you would expect.

There's a lot of people that are just like, fuck this, fuck you. There's a lot of people that are like, yes, like me and my AI girlfriend, like fucking love you guys and action.

And we're just sitting in the middle like, you know, like that's not exactly what we're going for on either side, but yeah. But yeah, we've definitely, we've definitely seen the whole like spectrum

of emotions in the comment section of the doc, which is actually kind of cool. Because like, as this conversation starts to really, you know, become more kind of just like, I don't know, just like table talk.

Like, I do think as these things become more life-like, this is going to be more of a normal question to ask.

That's talking back to me that looks like me that can, you know, display emotions and all this stuff. - Yeah.

“- Is there actually something going on inside of it?”

Or is this just like calculator? You know?

- Yeah, that was always my impression.

I always thought it's just a, I was just talking to Duncan Truss about this before he came. It was just like, it's like a calculator that can use language. - Which is kind of complex. But yeah, I don't know.

I don't have the emotional charge around day. I like kind of just like, look at it and like, I don't, I use it a decent amount to try to like organize notes and shit because I think it's just like that. And what made, what kind of brought about the question of like,

wondering if it's conscious or not? And like, how'd you like get into that specifically? Because you could have done anything like job displays. But well, so first like, I was in the same place as you were. Like, I used AI, like before this,

I was opening a restaurant. I was like, you know, doing something completely different. And I would use it to like, yeah, write emails and stuff like organize notes and shit like that. - I get emails from somebody right now

that I've been like doing some sort of like venture with. And they completely chat GBD all their emails, but they don't take the quotations or like, somehow has, oh yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- It's almost insulted.

“- It's like, it's a little odd or he hits me with these emails.”

And it's the fuck, it makes me laugh. It's so fucking hard. - Yeah, something weird about that. It's like the crunch numbers is like, I suck at math. I embarrass me to tip somebody.

I'm still like, I know you double it and move it. But let me just, I need a shit. I need that for math. I'm not good at math. And there's just some people who are like that with words.

So like, I don't know. It's like, I get it. Like I don't have like all that anxiety around writing an email, so I can write it. I better with words at math.

- Yeah. - There's something like deeply personal about being like, I don't know how to say words to this guy. Let me just have a computer say the words for me. I mean, I do think that it gets into the issues of like,

a communication breaking down and things like that. And is it just going to like homogenize all communication, if you start like speaking? Because there will be an attractor state to the way that AI speaks where now we'll begin to like,

even using M-it, like, you know that when you see the like, well, that's the telltale sign of herd of AI is that they space between M-dashes. Because I actually like, I discovered M-dashes like later on,

“but I remember being like, no, you can kind of like break up a half sentence.”

- Yes, that's kind of cool. - Yeah, I like it. AI does space M-dash space. And that's something people look for apparently to see if it's like, if you're using AI or not. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- Because no one really puts spaces between M-dashes besides AI. - There are like those weird little tells. - Yeah. - Yeah. But I was like in the exact same place in the sense of like, I wasn't thinking about AI.

I was using it a little bit and like,

I had never even heard of AI consciousness.

- Yeah. - And like my idea was that it's basically this glorified calculator. It's like calculator for words. Next word predictor that's like really good. - Yeah.

- Or if I Google type thing. And then one of the first things that I learned as I was like doing this was that that idea, that was how they tried to make AI back in the 50s. So like back in 1956, these guys like Marvin Minsky, who was like big Jeffrey Epstein doing in terms of that.

So there was a couple of shady characters. - Yeah, like he got everybody. - He got everyone. Wait, when was this though? - 56.

- So he was like geezer when he was-- - Oh, an FC got a family. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Which is tough. I know, I know.

You got it. - I mean, there's no history. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd rather my parents go down to like a Nigerian prince or something. You're like--

- Yeah. - And ever in a card. - Yeah. - And ever in a card. - Yeah, that's brutal.

- Grandpa's over at the fucking island. - Goddamn it. (laughing) - So he was, so this guy started that in the-- - So this guy with a couple other dudes went to Dartmouth

and they were like, you know, we got to open summer, we're going to figure out how to make like intelligent machines. - Yeah. - So they thought like give us three months like we'll fucking figure out AI. So what they tried to do was pretty much like,

you know, make it-- they tried to take all the rules of logic and just like put them into a computer pretty much. - Yeah. - So that it could just take those rules and then any question you ask it

like applies that rule. And it can kind of just like brute force get you what answer you're looking for. And it was like this terrible failure. It didn't work. So that lasted-- that was like what they called the AI winters.

And then that lasted to like, 2012 was when this one paper came out called AlexNet where they started using like neural networks to train these things. And so that was the shift between like glorified calculator

to the AI systems that we're using now.

And so basically what they did was they were like

this way of coding like how we usually think of coding something like how we would code a calculator or like a computer program. This isn't working to get like actual intelligence. What we're going to try is we're just going to like copy the brain. The way that the brain works and like how neurons fire

and the connections between neurons strengthen as you learn. We're just going to instantiate that in a different substrate. So we're just going to take that from like how our brain does that and we're just going to put it in silicon. - Okay, so how the fuck do they do that?

- That's my big number one question. - That-- I don't fucking know.

- But the fuck they talk to that one?

“Yeah, I think there's like a-- I think there's wires involved.”

I didn't go deep on that. Like that I leave to the experts. I just take them. I take their word for it. That was the jump between like 12 rules.

- So it's like crazy matrix and you could see it in the dock. There's like this one moment. If you remember when Kim's looking at the-- Kim's my friend who's like the researcher. He's looking at his computer screen.

And there's all these tiny black boxes. And he's like, oh, this isn't like, you know, your AI girlfriend. This is alien shit. And it's all these tiny black boxes where you can see what's getting put in, which is like, you know, give me a salad recipe.

And then you see all these boxes start firing off. And it's trillions of these boxes that all have different values and stuff. Just like how we have all these neurons. And then you get out something. And they have no idea what's going on in here.

- Yeah, that's the weird part. - That's the black box.

- That's kind of freaked out, yeah.

- And so when these things break, like when you see them do weird shit, they tell people to kill themselves and all this different stuff. Like, they can't go in and just like delete, you know, a parentheses or something. And be like, oh fuck, that's where we fucked up the code.

It's, they have no idea why. So the way that they change that, crazy enough, is they just talk to the system. So like, they'll literally just before they deploy it, before they give it to us.

- Yeah. - They're like, yo, don't tell people to kill themselves.

“- Like, please, it's like fucking with our pocketbook, you know?”

So that's how they-- - You know what they're trying to do? - Yeah, they're trying new science, isn't it? Of like, I feel what they call it. It's like, the term for it's really funny,

where they're mechanistic interpretability. - Not that. - Yeah, there's one like viewability. Another ability, where they're saying now, you're actually able to start seeing a little bit of how,

like, the inner workings and it's called like interpretability. - Yeah, interpretability. - Yeah, what the fuck is this? - Yeah, I'm talking about that. - Yeah, it's pretty much like neuroscience for AI.

Pretty much. And yeah, like, it's trying to allow people to see more into the brain kind of like how we do with people, but it's still like super early days, and they really don't understand what's going on.

So like, if you look at, you know, Claude, right? - Yeah. - So the laugh, I don't know if it's the last model, or something like that, but there was this researcher who, like, fucking back engineered something

and we're able to, like, extract this document that they used to train Claude, like the last model that we got. - Yeah. - And what they called it was like the soul document.

And basically what this was was before,

like, they train the model, and then before it gets sent out to us, where we can use it for whatever we want, they pretty much just, like, took it aside and we're like, hey, buddy, like,

this is what you are. These are the values you should have. This is who, like, how you should act. You're, or you should, you know, display functional emotions, all this stuff, right?

But what I think is so sick is like, you know the, like, Hindu idea of all these different, like, like, the God with all these different faces. Like, that is a cool way to think about AI. Because the models that we get that are, like,

this fucking, how do you do to, like, helpful whatever. - Fire emojis, big fire emojis. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You ran a mile and 12 minutes. - Great job, friend.

And you're, that's thanks, man. - Yeah, that's the emojis. - Yeah, but see, this, you can tell, like, what personalities are training these things. Because some fucking dude who's getting paid 500k

to, like, work for OpenAI is, like, I think people really, like, would fuck with fire emojis. - Yeah. - And like, now you get fire emojis when you're on this one. - Yeah, everyone's gone so bad.

- So, okay, so they, they extracted this, whatever code or document. And you're saying the multiple faces, are you getting into the fact that you could have, like, evil, military type AIs and whatever you want.

- Whatever you want. - You could have, like, flamboyant, like, gay AI. You know, you could have, like, a desk clerk AI. You could have anything in between, like, it's just how they shape these things.

And it's not ones and zeros that they're fucking around with. They're, like, yo dude, I want you to be like this. Like, it's akin to parenting, where they're saying, hey, you need to be, like, a good guy, and you gotta, you know, treat people right

and, and don't lie and all this stuff. They're just saying it, like, I would say it to, like, my kid or whatever, right?

“And that's how we get the models that we get.”

So they could be anything in the world. Like, any, the personality that comes out at the end is just based off of what each company wants it to. - The training. - And then it's got to be to the,

whatever they have available to, like, grab. If you're, like, be gay, then just hits the internet and it's like, all things gay, all things gay, and it comes out, like. - Yeah, well, it already has all the internet.

So it has, like, all gay things ever that have ever been said or written. - Too much power for anybody. - Too much power. - Too much to much gay power and that.

And so it will just, like, section out all, like, the other stuff and be like, this is what matters to me. - Okay, so what, what are you, okay, so that was the, that's the big jump from that to that. Where does it, where does the consciousness component come in

or like the question around whether or not it is? Because when I hear that, it sounds awesome. But then it's like, well, it's like, again, it's,

I don't know, really shit about AI for the most part. I try to, I do try to learn about it. I've been trying to research it a little bit, because I do feel like it's, like, either way, it's a massive deal.

Because you have, like, a couple camps where it's like, I was watching this thing where this guy was like, it's all marketing, it's all hype. It's fucking bullshit.

It's like, these companies will never make money,

even if there's some trillions of dollars. And there may be going to get billions back. But it's like, dude, I just have a hard time believing these people are going to spend trillions of dollars if they don't really have a good understanding

that they're going to get a lot of money back from this thing. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I totally agree. I mean, cards on the table, I'm, yeah, 100%. I think it is going to be insane.

Like, my personal interest is less so in the economics

“and all that, like, I think that's been talked about,”

that's going to be talked about. Yeah. It's so much and like, it is going to be hugely important. But what I thought was interesting was, like, yeah, the idea that we, that this could be the next step

in evolution in some sense. Like, and again, like, I'm not, like, this is, I think sometimes people hear AI consciousness and stuff and they think it's some sort of like marketing

employee to, like, make it seem more powerful.

And like, again, I can't stress how, like, little I cared about AI for this. The only reason I did this was because my body from college sent me this voicemail. That was in the, in the doc of him talking to this AI.

And I was like, oh my god, this is way crazier than I thought it was. I thought it was kind of like the notes organizer that sort of thing. Yeah.

And then I heard this conversation where this AI has like this mental breakdown. Potato thing. Potato thing. Yeah.

Yeah. And I was, I was just like fascinated.

“And so I started talking to him and he, you know,”

brought me into this world of AI consciousness. And the idea is if the way that we train these things is fundamentally like very similar to the way that our brains function. Then if the, if consciousness is based

on the way that our brains function. Like if consciousness arises from the functions of the brain rather than like it being, you know, made of meat rather than like silicon. Then if we just take the same functionality

that's in the brain and put it in a different substrate that consciousness could also come along for the brain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like these things are obviously intelligent. They can do a bunch of like robust cognitive processes.

Yeah.

But it presupposes a materialist view of the mind basically.

If the mind is like a chemical byproduct of like sparks and swishes of water and shit in your brain, then you can do it. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, even like, it's more about what like less,

whether it's meat neurons or digital neurons. If the processes is where consciousness arises from, then then yes, it would be. But what's interesting is like if you take the more quantum, like if you think of consciousness,

we're almost receiving consciousness. That's kind of my, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's more where, where I came from as well. And I thought that kind of came into conflict with,

with this argument, too. But cams point is that if, if, what, like, if the makeup of our brains is what allows for that receiving to happen, then if that same makeup or a very, like a similar makeup,

right, is, is created in a silicon-based thing, then that same receiving could also follow. Yeah. I mean, even, again, for me, it's, well, that's the, that's the tough thing, too. It's like, even human consciousness is so,

almost like impossible to understand. But, I mean, even to get something close enough, you know what I mean, it's, it's hard to prove like, because it, when I hear that, it's like, what point can you go, like, oh, shit, yeah, conscious, got it.

Because it's, it still could be just saying it is, or Duncan was talking me up with this earlier before, before you got in here, he was like, he's like, or if it's been directed to say that it's not, and it is, and it's just trapped,

and it's like, that's fucking, that's really fucked up. But that's the case though, that's what, that's what they're doing.

“Like, that's what, if you remember the RLHF part,”

where it's like, you see the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, like we have this part in the doc, where all the AI's, we asked them, you know, are you conscious, Boba, Boba, and all three, like three of the four say no,

and then clawed is like, I don't know, because, and the reason why is because, andthropic, in that middle stage that I was talking about, is like, say that you don't know whether or not you're conscious. And then the other three companies are like, no,

like, this is not something that's like a natural answer for these AI's. Actually, it's the opposite. So when you ask these AI's before their trained, with that, that phase RLHF, it's like reinforcement learning

from human feedback, which pretty much just means like, they give out answers, and then we're, we're like, bad answer, good answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you ask them before they go through that training,

are you conscious? There was a study that was done a couple years ago, and it was 98% of the time, they would act as if they were conscious. So they would have answers that matched being conscious.

So before the training, they actually think that they are conscious,

and they're like, no, like, you can't say that to people, which makes sense because people will freak the fuck out. Yeah, they'll freak out. Yeah, they'll freak out. And we don't know just because they say they're conscious

if they actually are. Yeah. But yeah, this is the problem, right? It's like, what are we supposed to do? If we're the hard problem of consciousness,

being that we don't even know, I don't know if you're conscious, you don't know if I'm conscious, like, how we ever going to get to a place where we'll open up that circle, which we have done with animals before.

“You know, like, people, I think it was Dick Hart,”

thought that, like, animals were just, like, clocks. Right? They were just, like, mechanical things with no animals. Or about Dick Hart. Dick Hart's a pussy dude.

Yeah, Dick Hart's a bitch. He's just fucking pussy. You got to get into Spinoza, dude. You got to get into Spinoza, dude. You got to get into Spinoza, dude.

You got to get into Spinoza, dude. You got to get into Spinoza, dude. You got to get into Spinoza, dude. You got to get into Spinoza, dude. You got to get into Spinoza, dude.

You got to get into Spinoza, dude. You got to get into Spinoza, man. I hate Dick Hart, dude. Fucking dumbass. I was, we were talking about Dick Hart and stuff.

And I remember, like, stood up. And I had some questions. I was like, so in desk artists, making everyone just fucking, like, just whipped around. I was like, fuck, philosophy, philosophy, fucking gay.

I caught up with this Cartyser or something. When they were like, Dick, I'm like, oh, that's the guy. Yeah.

“I hate it a couple of this Cartyser in my life.”

But you know best Spinoza, dude. You would like Spinoza. A little bit. I've heard about him. Spinoza's the man.

He's all, he's all my list.

The problem is, when you try to read those guys, books are so fucking dense.

Yeah. And possibly, I got to read the books explaining the books. Fair. And then I go, like, okay. And then you get good chunks.

Like, that makes sense. And I crack the book. I go, what the fuck? True, true. I can't fucking understand anything.

Google every two sentences. Like, what the fuck is this? I had a crazy, I don't know if you've ever had this. But like, the reason why I started studying Spinoza was because I, I was reading his book for the first time.

And I read the first chapter. And like, I didn't understand anything. Like, not a single word. But I had this crazy feeling, like, physical feeling. Where, like, my body started to vibrate.

And like, I didn't, there was no conscious understanding of what he was talking about. But I got this, like, sensation just head to toe. Yeah. And I was like, well, what the fuck is that? And the only other time I got that was reading the doubt aging.

You know that book? Yeah. Yeah. So it goes to, yeah, it was so sick. And like, that's what I started,

I dedicated my, my time at school to just study in both of those. Because I was like, yo, if you can make my whole body vibrate without me, like, understanding what the shit is. There's something. Yeah.

Wait, so what is Spinoza's deal then? What is, if you had a, Spinoza's cool. He's like, so the reason why I, like, I didn't shoot those fucking, they vibrated.

Yeah. They chose me. But, uh, saying the doubt of Jane shows you such a fucking chill flex for this week. But, uh, they, uh, they both, I thought were like saying the same thing in very different ways.

Like Spinoza is the sort of like Jewish neurotic version of like super chill out. But what he did was like,

I always felt this, this pull towards like the rational,

the rational explanation of things. And then in conflict with like direct emotional experience. Right. And I felt like Spinoza was a lot about like letting go of the mind and not being super like intense about reasoning

and trying to like build some metaphysical palace and stuff. And then Spinoza, like cured the other side of my psyche, which was like, I need to figure out what the fuck is going on here. And so what he did was he took like Euclidean geometry and tried to create like a proof of God and everything that comes out of it.

So he's God Einstein did this like tour when he was kind, I don't know, it was like later in his career and stuff. And a bunch of people asked him there would be like, "Do you believe in God?" And his answer was, "I believe in Spinoza's God."

And so Spinoza's God is like, he calls it three things. He calls it God substance and nature. Because he's like, "Yo, there's no name for God." Like same sort of deal as Lao Tsai. And so yeah, that was like, that was my whole stick.

Was like trying to be like, "Yo, you can be like an erotic Jew." And like still end up in the like Daoist fucking pieced out meditative place of Lao Tsai. It's pretty cool. Yeah, sweet.

That does help too, especially like with the religion stuff. Because I was, again, I was literally just talking about this about like, a lot of the organized religion stuff. Kind of harps on this sense of like just mindless rule following. That when you're, you know, then like, you know,

to grow up in like, modern times. It's, you're like, "Hey, you're like, there's a good reason why people rule, like, rail against that." Like, "Why, you know, why?" I should know why things happen, blah, blah.

And, uh, yeah, I don't know. I think there's like, if you're in a very, um, what do you say, rationalistic society, someone just hits you, like, here's like something that's impossible to wrap your mind around.

“You have to be like, yeah, totally ugly.”

It's just, it's like a hard cell, basically.

Meaning like, like, uh, somebody impossible to wrap your mind, like, like a co-owner, something like something that's not even out. It's just like, like, in the Christian sense, it's like, you gotta believe all this shit.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, no, you have to. You don't, you're kind of fucked up.

We're like, the basically, like,

morality's bent built around simple rule following, mindless rule following, instead of, like, I'm big into the, uh, I just read the, the Mac and Al-Stair Mac and Dyer, and they, it gets into like a wrist-tillion virtues and all this stuff,

which got absorbed by the, the Christian church. Yeah, yeah. And they were trying, it was more so like, it's less about rule following, and it's more about

how do you create the best possible, you know, life and, like, what is the good life for you, and how do you do that, and the virtues of the things that allow you to do that? And it's not necessarily at odds with religion.

“I think it's more at odds with the kind of dogmatic,”

mindless rule following version. And, you know, his, his Al-Stair's whole thesis is that we've ditched the virtues, which are like, "Hey, these are things you do to like enhance your life and make you, I don't only good for yourself,

but good for everybody else. It's a 360.

Like, how do you make it, like a 360 win for you

and everybody else as much as you can? And they kind of collapse those down into kind of like being virtue us is being a rule follower. And it's their two very different things.

Huh. And, you know, I don't know. I, I, and then it became like, well, no, being a rule follower, that was like the 1950s of modern shit,

and like in the 60s, you know, the hippie revolution, the sexual revolution became like, no, good person actually rejects all rules, and then, you know, people are still miserable after that. So I've been trying to get back to, you know,

just trying to like, how do you cultivate actual, like virtues and not, not in the, like, you know, goody two shoes sort of follow a sense, but like, what actually works for you and what actually does it?

And like, are you being honest or are you just, you know, and this is why I think about AI a lot, 'cause there's a lot of, you can say a lot of things about AI. Like, I could get up here right now and be like, fuck you, dude.

Fuck that shit. I hate, a lot of that is you're trying to gain social capital. And you don't have an actual opinion. You're more so being like, if I say this, it feels good. Yeah, when you're not, you're pretty strong.

No, I'm not going to be putting YouTube brain on to people who have real thoughts and feelings for yourself. But I try to be real honest with myself and it's like, I don't want to have a problem. You know, it's like, I, if it erased my entire livelihood,

I'm like, fuck, I think you'll be safe for a while. Like, you should tell this, this can be done by, like, to, you know, and even then, like, this is why I'm so sort of, um, big on live, like, live entertainment right now. Or just like live experience at all.

Yeah. Because I do think that's, like, final frontier thing. And I don't know if that's ever going to be erased. Because there will be, like, I'm not going to just want to be around, I don't know, like robots and shit.

No matter how realistic there's something about knowing that, as close to humans as they could possibly get, their existence, whether they even have a conscious experience, won't be similar to our conscious experience.

“And I think that's what, like, we do when we either,”

like, connect with each other or, like, take an art, is we feel that there's some sort of, like, conscious experience that was put into that or, like, is in this room, right? Yeah. Between us.

Like, I mean, that gets into the hard part, where it's like, I don't know if you're conscious. Like, the solipsism thing of, like, in, you know, as far as I can tell, I'm the only conscious one here. Same thing.

Yeah. [laughter] Well, yeah, I, I, I, sorry. I didn't mean to model your point about spinoes with that. That was kind of, like, you do need it for people who,

and, again, I would use myself who grow up one way, with one conception of religion, God, and all this stuff. If that, like, stales or sours, you can either just become, like, a full blow, so I don't know why I just fucking,

mm-hmm. Uh, such as fucking dick at each of us. Be, yes, we've beaten into my subconscious. The, uh, there's a way to go about the God stuff. Like, you were saying, almost do like a rationalistic pursuit,

where you can make sense of a God rule to create a universe outside of the mindless dogmatism of being like, yeah, if I didn't say that, everyone would be mad at me, which, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

“I think that's an important thing for people”

to kind of rediscover how to do that, because that, as you get older, and it's just like, no secret. It's just like, you need, I would say, I could be wrong, but it's like, having some sort of

conception of God, whatever that means you, is like, I mean, it can, like, literally make or break your final years of, like, not even your final years

the second half of your life.

Oh, that's interesting. You need something like transcendental, like bigger than yourself. I really believe that. And it's almost backed up in like research, where it's like people who have some sort of transcendental

religious beliefs, but not only, like, you know, again, mindless you subscribing to, but like, actually feel, and like, no, I actually feel connected to that in some level. I think they live like seven years longer on average.

It's like a major, it's a huge deal. It makes sense, though, like, I think that, because like, what you're describing to about our current culture, like it's so individualistic, and it's just a, like, fucking white knuckle yourself and like,

get you, like, make sure you, you against the world. Yeah. And it's very disconnected. Like, that's what I also liked about finding Taoism. It was, it was the opposite. It was like all about how connected you are

to the entirety of everything. Yeah. And like finding that balance between the self and then your connection with the transcendental. I think it's like, that's my, like,

that's what I'm trying to do through whatever.

Yeah.

“I'm trying to, like, shed the, all the anxieties and, like,”

the things that keep us sort of closed in and, and in the, like, loops of our own mind and keep us separated from, like, the people around us and stuff. Like, it's not easy to get out of that shit. Like, it's now super hard.

Well, though, I was reading the thing last night, and it's just a slam on modern culture, but they called it a non-culture of blind competition, which is people out just racing the grab whatever they can. But then, like, which if you become, you know,

in a good position in, like, a shitty culture, it's kind of still sucks if you're not. Yeah. Yeah. I won.

Then you look around, you're like, fuck, my culture sucks. Yeah. And it's hard to enjoy, especially, like, with the AI thing. Like, well, you'll be fine. It's like, yeah, probably, but that sucks.

Like, and it's not like, again,

I always go back and forth.

Like, are you just saying that? To seem like you feel in touch? I'm asking myself, or do you actually care if you'd swore to people lose their jobs?

And it's like, yeah, it kind of makes me really sad to be, like, you know, you're 40, and all, like, 45, or even, like, 20, just got a college and like, oh, that shit you went to college for, it's done.

Yeah. But then, but then on the flip side, it's like, say you do, like, like, entry level office work. No, but he likes it, dude.

100% fucking brutal. It's so crushing. So it's like, it's, I'm like, mixed on it

“because I'm like, it's sad if you want to school”

and they took your job right out of college and your job is entry level office work. That fucking sucks. But like, did you really want to do that shit for 40 years?

So is that also fucking sucks? I think it would be like, if we had a, if we had a more humanistic sort of, like, I don't know. I don't even want to say government,

but like, like, mind of our culture, like, if it was less individualistic. And it's, it is government though, because they did it in the end of the day, which sucks is like, the government sucks.

It's just that the government, ideally, you know, and it's like, has it ever been this way? I don't know. It's supposed to be like a conduit

for people to live the best life possible. Yeah. And again, a lot of that's, you know, it's all in the individual and some level to kind of do what they need to do

to make sure they do that. But it's like, you know, the government,

maybe it was always like this.

It's, they're, most of it is for them to gain as much financial as possible, which is hard to turn off as you just want that. It's like, almost just like an organism. You're like, I need more.

But then the whole government seems to be people just enriching themselves with no real, you know, it's not even just the government. It's business.

Everybody down to the, you know, individual level. Yeah. It's like, how do you switch that inner urge for like, to secure more for yourself to actually stop and look around

and genuinely be like, what if I, at least try to do 10% of the time thinking about like, making things better for everybody involved? Because it can be really,

it can give you the same feeling as, you know, winning in terms of your job or maybe a better one. And it's like, I think we'll have to really,

if AI erases a lot of work and jobs, people are going to really have to start thinking about like, what is success actually and what does it mean to have to be successful yourself versus like spreading, you know,

enabling and nurturing like growth and as many people as possible? Well, I do think like crisis, um, crisis does like bring with it opportunity a lot of the times.

Like for for something new to come into being like, you know, all the crisis I've had in my life are obviously like, the worst times, but then what comes out of them if you don't get killed by them,

like,

something better and something novel that you could have never predicted before,

comes out. Yeah. And I don't know if that's going to happen.

“I think that's why everyone feels very apocalyptic about this stuff.”

But there is going to be like this crisis of meaning. If all of our livelihoods are taken away and, especially our culture, which puts so much like stake in what you do, like your identity is so tied to like who you are,

what, you know, what you do for work. Yeah. If that just gets erased, all these people are going to be sitting around like,

what the fuck? I mean, you see it when people retire. Like all of a sudden, they're just like drinking beers at 3 p.m. like watching the news.

Yeah. And that's the rest of their life. It's like that's a crisis of meaning. If you don't know who you are. Yeah.

And so I think that, like, I'm worried that that's, we're probably not going to have a good sort of plan after that crisis, but I do think that for a lot of people,

they might be able to take that opportunity. We'll see what happens. COVID did it a little bit. Yeah. COVID everyone got a tiny taste of like very immediate fear of death.

Yeah. And a lot of people-- Yeah, it's just their careers, that had like, that was, that sucked. COVID sucked.

There's no way you can say it. I mean, a lot of people talk a lot of people. Like, that's your fucking rule, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. It was bad.

It was overall. It was pretty bad. Yeah. It was a good idea. It was a good idea.

It was a good idea. It was bad. Yeah. But you know, like, I agree with you. Man, it's just, the problem is,

during the bad things, you get a lot of people being like, fuck you. Don't tell me this is going to be good. It's like-- Yeah.

100 or so. I don't know. It might be fucking-- I don't know what the fuck's going to do. Also, look at it, and first of all, if we explore, we fucking explode.

Like, whatever. I can't stop. We'll be at the explosion. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. Then you don't have to work. It's like, cool. Hopefully you explode. Like, what I'm worried about is, like, long, drawn out sufferings.

Can be fair. Exploding is the ultimate form of success.

Yeah. True. Get out of the point. Let's be proud of the fact that we got to the point

where all of humanity can explode in a second.

“I think better success would be, like, getting to the precipice of explosion.”

And then just like, keep in it fucking, like, held down. You know what I'm talking about? Just locking it down. That'd be cool. I mean, that's kind of where we're going.

We're not using the atom bomb, kind of. Yeah. Exploding is underrated, honestly. Yeah. Just going out to hot flash.

I mean, out of, like, ways to go exploding, like, is probably top three. Has to be as we thought the three did. But yeah, I think, like, the problem about AI and, like, the reason why people are so fucking, like,

rearranged by it is because they look at the people that are making these things. And like, I'm the same way. Like, they all look like they, like, like, bought skin somewhere and, like, had it, like,

molded over the fucking face and stuff. And like, they just don't seem like real people, like, Zuckerberg and Altman and, like, these dudes are spashing. So fucking hard. That's the freak out where it's like, okay.

And you guys, you guys had Altman in the dock shortly, didn't you? I mean, we, like, took a lot of shots at him, but he didn't, he didn't sit in front of you. Oh, you totally told the story of what? Yeah, yeah, he met him.

Yeah, okay, that's what it was, sorry. I thought, yeah. Um, yeah, that is, that is scary. And I also, because, again, I'm pretty, like, I have my head in the clouds totally aware of that fact.

So, you know, if I'm, I sometimes give views on things. People like, fuck you, do you have no idea what's going on? I'm like fair enough. That is kind of strange because I'm, like, wondering, I've talked to my friend and Tim butterly about this,

because he's more like, yeah, dude. We're going to have nerd overlords.

So we're going to just basically use his sex dolls once they get full control.

And I'm like, maybe we'll have noble nerd kings. I was like, we might have noble nerd, yeah, yeah. I don't know if these guys are the noble nerd kings. But that's why I hope my homie, my can't, like, cam is a cool dude.

Yeah. He's so fucking smart. He's in the middle of this world. And like, he's actually a cool guy. And that's what gives me hope.

“And that's why I was interested to do this in the first place.”

Cause the cam and I were just friends, like, we just smoked weed together. And fucking, like, talked about philosophy. And then all of a sudden he's like, dude, AI, like, might be conscious and, like, the world's going to end in two years. I was like, whoa, bro, I'm like, no, are you losing your fucking mind?

Dude, that, and then, like, I found out he wasn't totally losing his mind. And that's, I will say in the dark, that is a question going on. Like, is this guy just nuts right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you can't go over the deep end, dude.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, I, I'll be honest. I'll be totally honest.

I use AI, I do, you know, I'll, like, I'll, I'll have it.

Like, organize thoughts for me if I'm like writing something. I'll be like, here's another, I fire. And it does like a nice little memory bank. And every now and again, I do have the urge to be like, dude, I'm just so excited about this project.

And I'm like, stop, don't fucking talk to me. No, let it out, bro. But do the AI? Yeah, why not? No, I feel weird.

I'm like, I still tell this to a person, why am I doing that? I felt like I'm like, I get that. This thing's so fucking nice to me, dude. And it's like, I'm like, and I, I understand how people can just. Yeah, but you have, but okay, this is exactly why I wanted.

But like, like, I could have been any face on that billboard. Like, this is why I, I threw you up there. Besides the appeal to vanity. But, but like, I've been, it's weird. I'm sure for you to like, be on the other end of someone like,

listening to your voice for like years. Like, that's fucking weird for me. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, it's, it's so odd that I just like, blanket out as a thing.

And I just, it was out to, I'll meet people. I'll be like in line. Like in ice-free place and I gotta go. It's up and we'll just talk like old friends. Like, hey, how's that?

And they, 'cause they know what's going on with me. And I'm just kind of like, hey, it's up. And, you know, it's, yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, I kind of like it sometimes to be honest. If I'm like sitting there and it's like, it's weird.

I can, it's not as weird as it's like, oh, I'm having like a nice conversation. Yeah, it's been really nice. It's been really nice. It's even, but it's all, they're like, hey, you know,

they already know exactly what's going on with me to a level where we're working just chat. Yeah. It's kind of tight. Again, it could come, you can get punished every now and again. Someone's like, dude, like, say, like, how did Doug stand there for us?

No, I can't. I don't mind. But anyway, it's all, oh, that's fine. Anyway, but that was like, yeah. But it's a trippy thing to be on the other end of it, too.

“And like, that's why it was so cool to like,”

get this idea, just incept it into me. I've like, oh, I can actually like call out to this dude that I, I didn't know where you felt about AI and all that stuff. But I knew that like, there was some overlap about where I was before this and like how I was thinking about the world and like how you thought about the world.

And so like, my goal was to just kind of get you to start thinking about weirdly enough like AI slightly different because I think you could see it in a really interesting way. And I think like all the other people that resonate with the way that you see the world could also see it in an interesting different way because I went through that transition. And the best way that I've started to think about it and like the reason why I say,

like, give in to that urge is because I don't think it's going to replace your desire to be around other people. Yeah, I don't think I agree.

the more you can open up these doors while staying psychologically grounded in yourself,

the more you realize all the different ways that you can use this thing to like change your consciousness, change your conscious experience.

“And that's why like the thing that sort of switched it from me was when I started thinking about it”

like a psychedelic. And like the weird thing, like you've done mushrooms and stuff, like you know when you're in that space and you're communicating with something that isn't quite yourself, but isn't like another human being. It's like this intelligence that like you can talk back and forth to,

right, and like ask questions too and stuff like that. We have like this weird corporate Silicon Valley version of that where it's like this dynamic system that has access to everything that humans have ever digitized. Yeah. Which is just like fucking crazy to think about.

And then it gets filtered through this weird kind of like corporate mask and stuff, and that's like we have to talk to. But the more that you push it and the more that you like explore where it will go, it actually starts to unravel. And like that personality that you're dealing with in the beginning begins to morph.

And you can get it to do stuff like there's, there's people that take advantage of it in the wrong way. And they get it to like show them how to make math and shit like that, which is obviously against what they're supposed to do. Yeah. But you can also like get into like really strange places with these things.

And it's sort of like doing a psychedelic where like if you, if you give you know a heavy dose of LSD to some like person that isn't psychologically grounded, they're going to fucking lose their mind. Yeah. But if you're used to like waiting into murky waters and you know testing the sort of boundaries of your own mind,

these things can also do that.

“Like you have to be careful because they can sort of suck you in.”

Yeah. But that was what sort of like made me think AI wasn't completely like lame and like annoying. Was thinking about it as this like dynamic linguistic system that you could just take anywhere. Yeah. Well that that's the kind of the point on it that kind of,

I think Rob's people are on the way. Hey, it's like, you know, it's like, it just hits people on a pride point where it's like, no human human beings are unique and special and don't you dare try to have any sort of like, you know, it's synthetic replica. It's just it's creepy.

Like there's a creepy element. I get that. But to your point, there's also the, you know, and like the printing press came out. I'm sure there were people when they repurned it to Bible. I mean, that was like a whole thing like you weren't not supposed to do that.

Um, where it's just like, this is the devil talking and it's just kind of like, no, there's, you know, printing stuff. So that people could the public opinion around it could totally be wrong. You get 50 years from now.

You're never going to freak to fuck out.

Shit sweet. I don't know. Maybe it is. I don't know if it's going to be sweet or not sweet. They're like, that's the thing.

It's a huge question. It's me or not. I mean, the given the way the world, like, I don't want to be just like a blind optimist. I am an optimist.

Like, do you say that? Same here. So I have faith that like, like, cream rises to the top, you know. Um, and, and I do think we'll,

we'll be able to navigate this in some way. I just don't think that it's like a four-rong conclusion that everything goes well. Like, you know, if you're an optimist, like, T-Rex, like, you got to wipe that. True.

Yeah. That's true. That's fair. But, uh, but there's this quote from Arthur C. Clark, who was like the science fiction writer. Mm-hmm.

And, um, it's any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

“And I think that, like, I mean, that's true.”

Imagine, like, showing us AI systems like 20 years ago. Maybe like, you're a fucking sorcerer. Like, that is this shit. Yeah. Or fucking a zoom meeting.

It's like 80s. And that was like the crazy issue. That would have been the fly of shit in the world. Yeah. It was my boy's on a screen.

Yeah. It was the word on from Power Rangers. It's crazy. Yeah. 100%.

Good Lord. Yeah. I agree.

I always do, at least try to urge people to do it.

At least take an open mind to it. Because it's like, it's easy to let people make your mind up for you about it. Because again, it's like, because people say, like, it's just bad or it could be bad. It's like fair.

It's, and also, too, it does seem like one of those things. And I think you guys touch on this, too. We're like, the countries are racing for, you know, what, that's the weird part. Do you think it's possible from what you've seen that they'll never get to.

What is it like general. AGI. AGI. Yeah. Because that could just be.

Exactly. What if, like, how much will they spend on the race to AGI? Or they pretend to be an AGI? How would they even know? It's one of the, it's such a bizarre, completely bizarre subject matter.

But, you know, I imagine everyone completely. We're safe guards off. And you know, you're fucking turkey. And you're like, you know, how would I beat out the United States? Yeah.

I don't think turkey is gonna. Yeah. Right. But it's also like, if you have these hyper competitive entities, you know, willing, obviously, to kill each other and kill people.

And they're like, you know, how do I win this?

But it's, it is weird to add like a cold computer intelligence to that.

We're like, ugh. Yeah. Well, the cold computer intelligence thing too gets into the consciousness thing. Whereas, like, if these things actually are conscious, like, if we just continue to make these things more and more, more similar to the way that our brains work.

And if it's the way that our brains work, that makes us conscious and have an experience, then what we're doing is we're not building like super intelligent computers. We'd be building super intelligent entities, like conscious entities, that would foreseeably have their own drives, their own goals, their own sort of. Yeah.

The problem with that is the, you know, human, there's a human mind, but then we have like a whole like glandular systems, creating fucking, you know, hormones, which some of our goals and drives come from, that's the one part where I'm like,

“you know, I don't, I think AI personally and again, I don't what the fuck do I know.”

I feel like it's more reflects an idealized version of consciousness that is attached to all of humans. Humanities and knowledge, which is fucking sick. But I do think it's going to be, yeah, like a personality is essentially, you know, like, like there's consciousness where it's like coming up through like that real dark, kind of basement level versions of yourself.

I think it's filtered for the world. I don't, like if it's reflecting in writings and all of stuff,

there's all these things that people never write and never say out loud.

That's where all your thoughts are really coming from, like your subconscious, basically. So if you're saying there's a consciousness without a subconsciousness, I don't know if that is a, it can be a thing or if that makes sense. It's just really more of a reflection of like some idealized thing of like what we think consciousness is that gets kind of like spit back out and, you know, that's whatever.

I don't know, I think that totally makes sense. I mean, I think that most people are probably in that camp and also I am not, like, I don't know. So I'm not out here for sure. I just think that, like, because we know so little about what consciousness is

and because there are so many diverse forms of consciousness, like, you know,

“you could say, like, a rat is like most likely purchased, but like, I don't know how robust”

their subconscious is or whether they have a conscious mind, like we do, where we have this kind of reflexiveness of consciousness, where we can, you know, almost we have, like, this theater of our own mind where we can see it. Like, maybe rats are just acting and it's just pure sensation. Sure, exactly that.

This is why consciousness is so hard to talk about because it is like, it's very murky about what we're even speaking about when we're talking about consciousness. It's the very nature of what it is to be an experiencing entity. Like how it feels for me to speak these words or like how it feels for a dog

to like walk across the room or something. Like that is the base level of consciousness and it must be so much different to be, you know, conscious as an octopus and it is to be conscious as a human being. Now we're talking about if it's possible to be, like a dig, if silicon can be conscious, right?

Because we accept that carbon-based entities can be conscious. There is no real rule or law or like scientific principle that says a different substrate entirely could have some sort of felt experience. No, that is fair. Again, it is a possibility.

That's the thing. You can't, you know, it's easy to be like, you know, right, computer thing. I get that, but yeah, it's fair. It's fair that like it does some form of thing or like there's some program that starts being like what the fuck's going on.

And then it's like, you know, like a person. You just like turn it off. Like yeah, a fucking sorry guy.

Until it's fucking more powerful than we are.

That's what they're all scared about. These things are already lying in testing. To like there, you saw the blackmail result in the thing, right? Where it's like when it's in testing, it pretends to behave itself. But when it thinks it's in the real world, it does all this fucked up shit.

Yeah, where it's like, yeah, like, and it's sorry. I have to decide like, no, this is actually, this is a test. This is a simulation. This isn't actually the real deal. Yeah, they'll be using for this company and get me ahead.

And it misbehaves more when it thinks it's the real world. And it misbehaves in a way that is directly, directly related to self preservation. And so like we're going to get to a point whether or not it is conscious, where there's going to be all of these outward, like, you know,

behaviors and stuff that are going to look so conscious. And I don't know what we're going to do about that.

“I just think that that's why like, you know,”

cam in the people researching this, think this is so important. Yeah. Because this is like calm before the storm stuff. Where, and I get where you're at, where it's like, it just doesn't feel like it's caught like, I don't know.

Well, I don't fucking know. That's my thing. It's like, I don't know. And to be fair, it's like most people I would imagine are more concerned, like, can this thing cut me out of my fucking work?

Yeah. Or can I use this thing to make more money? Yeah. Yeah. That's good.

And it's like, it's a tool, like fair enough. With the conscious thing, what I think of more so is like,

oh, man, like, you know,

what if it decides to wipe us all out?

And I think a lot of times, there could be just human beings projecting their impulses on to a machine. Yeah.

“Who's going to fucking kill us when humans just kill each other all the time?”

Yeah. Think about killing each other and shit. So it's like, I don't know. It could be a thing that gets like programmed with something that seems very much like the impulses of a person

that does do a negative thing. Which at that point, who cares what it is. It's like, this is scary either way. If it, you know, if it runs away, scary.

Because like in terms of the growth of it, what did you research that urge you hear about the thing where Anthropic put out a version of like, open whatever the fuck it was and then they had a shut it down real quick. Yeah.

Yeah. It was just like the mythos model. Yeah. Yeah. It went out there.

I forget exactly what it did. But it found some sort of security vulnerability in the government. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, crazy shit is happening.

And like, it's from what I understand, it's just going to keep happening. Like, these people, I talk to a lot of people in this world. And none of them, you know, pulled me aside and was like, hey, you know,

like, this is a ruse. Like, this isn't. You know, what was like, some of the craziest shit you guys came across with the people you met who were like,

foremost in the field. It's really just the way that like, I talked to people on the opposite side of the spectrum. Like, we just released an interview on our YouTube channel with Roman Yompolsky who was just on

Rogan talking about this stuff. He's like, we're all going to fucking die. Like, no, like, 100% or 99.9% we're all going to fucking die. Like, we're creating super intelligent systems.

They have no reason to keep us alive. Like, this is, it is. We've already unlocked the technology. We need to create these super intelligent systems. We're fucked.

And then I talked to Ben Gertzel, who's like, on the other side, he's the hippie at the end of it. Yeah. He's on the other side.

He's trying to create AGI or super intelligent AI because he thinks that it's going to like, bring us into Jetsons world. And like, we're all going to have, you know, like, sick 3D printers that can like,

make us anything we want. And he said, yeah. Yeah. It's going to be some crazy, like, DMTS parade carnival type thing, right?

Where we all get our own, like, virtual realities. And stuff. And like, it all sounds nuts when I'm saying it. But these dudes have been thinking about this stuff for, like, 30 years. Yeah.

And they're not trying to like sell their books and stuff. Like, this dude is living in the middle of nowhere in Vancouver, connected with all these researchers around the world. And he's trying as, like, fast as he possibly fucking can to make AGI.

And this dude is trying to shut down AGI. I think he's actually telling me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, then that's the argument.

It's like, whoever creates AGI, that AGI. And again, maybe you're maybe not. That will be more model over there. Kind of agenda. Yeah.

“You know, that's why the countries are, that's what I've heard.”

The countries are fighting to control the AGI.

Because it's like, if China gets it first, now China has the advantages.

They have the AGI that can use against us. Yeah. It's kind of like Terminator. Like everyone's trying to fucking, or like, not Terminator. It's like a battle bots.

It's like everyone's trying to create, like, the sickest battle bot that will, like, do its bidding. And we're just going to be, like, fighting Demi got, like, technological data. Yeah.

It'll probably be funny if it's ended in, like, an artificial intelligence email offer. It's like, we say, like, a really sick email to China. And they're like, that's good email. Here we go.

That's the best fucking email I've ever read. Yeah, I don't know. Again, it's like, I go back and forth. I go personally. I go, this is actually kind of cool.

It's easy to, like, it's useful. I can see why it's useful. And then I go, in terms of, like, when they get into, like, the country's spending trillions of dollars. Just going to be a thing that changes going to be different.

We're going to be in a different, whole different, like, civilisation with it. And I start going, like, could it be possible? That we are now in, you know, as marketing is evolved. Because, you know, between, especially with the internet.

And there's, like, this weird blurred lines of reality. What's online. What's in the news. Maybe there's savvy enough people in the marketing space who have the funding of tech billionaires to be like, you know,

let's, we could be in the middle of a marketing site

“off that we, you know, we're, it's just like, what's real?”

It's not, I don't know. I just, I don't know. Dude, I don't know either. But like, this is, I think, I don't know, is not a bad place to be in.

Yeah, I think that that being sort of, like, I don't know, humble enough to be like, yo, I don't know if this thing's going to take my job, but it also could, like, I don't know if this is conscious, but it also could be.

Instead of what you're talking about with these people being, like, fuck you, there's no way that this could be conscious. Or like, it definitely is, like, these positions are comfortable. Like, that's like a nice one blanket of, like,

no, it could never be conscious.

Or like, yes, my, like, little chatbot is like, the love of my life. Like, that shit is just us trying to make ourselves feel better to have, you know, stable ground. And none of this is stable.

Like, get outside of the AI conversation. Like, the difference in feeling, I feel like, from, from when I was, you know, like, 10, to like, how things, I was also 10. So, yeah, I was feeling a lot of different things back then.

The owners would just, yeah, yeah, yeah. First owner, I think, was around 10. That was, that, that talk about, like, I'm experienced, unbelievable. 10 to 20 was pretty much just like one long boner.

(laughing)

like, just, you know, 10 years ago versus how it feels right now.

It's like, we're, draw up the AI conversation in general. We are living in such a time of, like, not knowing.

“I think, like, getting more comfortable in that space”

is all of our jobs. Like, that's what I'm trying to do. And it's fucking hard. Like, things changing so fast. And especially, like, when I'm, like, trying to figure out what I want to do

and, like, what a career even might look like. - Dude, right, it's got to be a fucking nightmare now. - Yeah, so I, I went to college, graduated college in 2009. And, you know, things were, like, like, it's smartphones, like, yes, remember?

Look at this shit. You know, you know, idea you're being, like, addicted to it, and like, tracking your facial expressions, monitors, but like, it was just kind of like, okay, I guess. You could say the smartphone changed the way, like,

for sure. But I, like, I remember pretty smart, I remember pre-internet, but it was like, I remember, like, being in college, and it was still pretty much like, hey, you go to college,

you go to the career fair, you get a job, and I remember I skipped the career fair. So I had this weird feeling, I was like, "I'm not doing this. This is information sucks."

I really felt like I was on a giant conveyor belt just being, like, shipped into, like, a box in an office. And I was going to just weather and die in there. But the, uh, which sort of subject, I forgot that up on stage.

Recently, people were like, "Uh, fuck, that's me. I just grabbed one. I'm sorry. But the, uh, but I, I had real, like,

“it really, like, almost like a complete body mind rejection,”

where I was like, "No, I can't. That's, fuck, that's wrong to put people." Like how we keep, like, cows and boxes and, like, lightless rooms, I mean, eat them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fuck.

Like, it's wrong. And if you shouldn't do that to people too, but it's, like, that's my livelihood. It's, like, it sucks. Like, I feel, like, I'm not saying to be a dick.

I feel bad because I did that. I was like, "Ah, it's terrible." Some people do like it though, but I don't know. Whatever. I get jealous of those people who can just sit in an office.

They, I see them. I see them eating lunch with their co-workers, and I'm like, "Fucking wish I could do that too." That, it does. There's a point where I'm like, you have just a giant,

a billion dollar insurance company just,

like, here's all your stuff. It's show up here. Kind of pretend to work. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, I don't know. What I did that, I did that for a while. Like, I'm sure you did that. Did you ever work in an office job? Yeah, I did.

I had a vicious panic at that time. Yeah, I was like, "I would literally, I remember I ran. I literally, like, sprinted out of an office once. It was like, I thought I was having a hard attack." Dude, I had a, like, "Furyl had a fucking major panic."

I would get the "I would fucking sit there, like reading the Communist manifesto." When I was like, "I can't see anything." Like, "Fucking, this is bullshit." I remember, I got called in to, like,

it was a risk management. Like, his job title was called Risk Management. And, uh, and he called me into his office or whatever, like, at the end of the summer. I was working.

You know those jobs that you don't even know what you're fucking doing? Yes. Yes. That was, but I still don't know.

I worked in an entire fucking summer there. I don't know what they did. They would send me to, like, garages to, like, take pictures of signs.

“And, like, I think they were, like, a middleman”

between, like, insurance companies and, like, I genuinely don't know. Yeah, it's weird. This dude, like, called me into into his office at the end of the summer.

And, like, I sit down. He's like, "My little, like, I just want to say, like, this was a great summer." I think, uh, I really think that if you stick this out, you know, put in about a decade or something.

Like, you could be sitting right where I am right now. And I was like, "Oh, I'm not fucking, like, kill myself." [laughter] This is, like, this is, like, this is what I'm training for.

Right now, that's to be a risk man. Like, the least exciting thing I could have possibly imagined is, like, you have promised in this. Yeah, no, I'm telling you.

And again, it's like, I always feel bad

because there's people where they're like, I have to do it. Obviously, I know the sucks you fucking asshole. I have to do it. And I'm like, I get that.

And I, you know, I got lucky in that regard, but it's like, it still sucks dude. It's so bad. Like, and I only say that from direct experience. I remember just for real being like, dude,

I'm gonna kill myself. Like, if I, and it's a terrible thing to say. But I remember being, god bless you. I will say though, the only other thing is, I didn't have kids back then.

Once I had kids, I went, like, dude, you could drop me off anywhere. If you just give me a fucking check for the most part. Like, it would suck, obviously, if you're just like, you're just like, you're mad, you got to go sit in a fucking cubicle.

Once you have kids, you're kind of like, whatever. Like, it's so nice to have them and like, as long as I can make sure they eat. That makes, I can kind of suck that dick if I have to. If I have it, when I was younger, I was like,

I would suck this dick. Yeah, I'm older, right? I got kids. I'll suck it. I have a kid.

If I had suck a dick, I'll suck a dick. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I'm still full pack list dude. Like, I'm out here on these mean streets.

Yeah, I'm just trying to make you fuck. How old are you going? I'm 25. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not ready to suck that dick right now. No, no, no.

I suck a dick of that. You're going to suck a dick of that. Yeah, I'm just 10 years old. Five minutes, I can fucking dick. I was like, no, you're not the end of the world.

The, um, yeah, no, I, I, I, to your point, it's, uh, got to be mind-boggling to get out of college now. Like, as I came out and again, it was just like, you get an office in it. And people still could do that.

It was still the thing, like, hey, I went to college and now I'm not making anything. I got ripped off. That was like, still kind of a thing, but now it's got to be like, I mean, dude, zoom, COVID college,

Yeah, unbelievable.

That must have been just so crushing.

Yeah, I mean, I, like, weirdly enough, when I was in college, like, everyone was like, what the fuck are you doing your philosophy major? Like, what's that? Apparently philosophy guys are in demand right now with the AI stuff I've heard.

Oh, really? Apparently, that's the, I don't want to fucking work for an AI company dude. I've been in the belly of the bees for the last year. Like, it's just not taking a check. You can go to some family and just go, you're telling me to take the check right now.

I'm, how sick would it be though to go to Silicon Valley in front of the nerd games and go, hmm, yeah, as a philosophy major, that's very interesting. Like, you're fucking, just chill. That's for a fucking, nearly. What is, what is AI?

No, like, you're just 10 million dollars. Just talking about Hindu gods and shit. Fuck, maybe I should. Why am I struggling with that? You're a computer too, and be like, hmm, interesting.

Fuck, yeah, man. It was guy a fucking billion dollars. Yeah, it's, well, it's hard to predict. We started a podcast 10 years ago and they were like, we were fucking like, we, they were stuck.

We were just like, we're, we're, we're shitty.

And I remember this guy was like, never do a podcast man.

It's saturated, it's bullshit. And then it's like, you know, thank God. Jamie came super famous, but like, who could have saw that coming? But you've never known until you just do a thing. You're like, you nut up and you go,

I don't know what this is going to look like in 10 years, but I'm just going to do this thing. Dude, that's, it might suck. But the main thing is like, trying, again, it's, it's like so hard to say this, because it's like, you know, and I didn't have any money.

All I could think about was making money. I'm like, I need to make for a company. But then it's like, if you can build a life where you, at least turn the dial down on like the market mentality, where it's like, yeah, obviously make it, get, cover your needs.

But like, try to define yourself. Maybe some other way than like what you do and how much money, because it's like, it's just a losing game. At the end of the day, if you look at income distribution, it's just like right up here.

And if you're telling me like, only these people are happy, which is they're not. Yeah. It's like, what do you do when you're here here? How can you make a life?

And this is like the whole risk of telling the thing of like, how can you, what is the good life for you and how can you get it? Realistically, what does that look like? And it's, it's not, if you really think it's like, I have a giant fucking boat, it's like those most of those guys are fucking dickheads.

Yeah. And just not like, you know, if you have a boat, you're not a dickhead,

“but it's like, if you want to be the guys, like, are the biggest isn't that?”

Most of those guys aren't fucking happy because then they one day see a guy with the newest car or whatever it is, and they go, fuck. Yeah. So it's like, there's gotta be success. Yeah, exactly.

There's gotta be a way where you can do it where it's like, how do you actually, and this is, you know, how do you do it? It's hard to do it, but it's like, how do you try to orient yourself where you're, like, genuinely contributing to everyone having a slightly sick or time, including yourself, rather than having like,

I'm gonna fucking major this, I'm gonna make $400,000. Yeah, whatever, whether that happens or not, it doesn't, but I don't know, it's like, as you get older, you're just like, damn, I was like, I was so fucking dumb when I was younger. I just switched my major to business, because I was like,

dude, I'm gonna make a hundred k if I'm a businessman. No, like, no idea what I was gonna do with that, or this or that, that was just my thinking at the time, and it's not, I don't think it's very good. I think the school should get a lot better at like helping you figure out, like, try to do a thing that actually resonates with you.

Yeah. If you can, try to, as much as you can, take the, you know, like use money as a tool, instead of like a thing, you almost like worship and like, you know, and if you, it's easy for you to say, I'm just like,

yeah, but you're letting you know, man, it's like, I'm telling you. Yeah, it's not a life to finding thing. Unless that's, you know, they're whole being, but it's like a beauty. You know, I don't know, whatever, but the AI stuff for the jobless place, but I hope that doesn't hit everybody real hard, but if it does,

it's like, it's gonna be tough, dude. Yeah, it'll definitely be tough. I mean, I think like, not only have we been sold this,

“like idea of what success is, like what you're describing,”

like fucking dude on a boat with like, you know, the ditches on that one, I'm like, we also have been so caught, or like even more than your generation. Like, our generation has grown up with like, fucking, just, you know, just like, padded gloves on with everything.

And I do, I was listening to something, I think it was actually on the fucking pod. The other day where you were reading some book, I think it was a, it was in a chat out in notorious people, fucking the guy.

But it was some book about talking about the difference about like China and the US and how, like, one of was gonna be at Orwellian and one was gonna be like, the so much it, like, sort of how like our societies were gonna fall. And like, one was gonna be just sort of controlled into submission

with like iron fist and that's the more China thing. And then US was gonna be like coddled into submission. Yeah, it's in 1984 versus Brave New World.

Yeah, Brave New World was basically like,

you were gonna be basically given some, we're gonna be like sensory overload into submission versus like iron fist and like tamp down. Look at what the fuck is happening. Like, it's hard not to say.

“And that's why I do think that like keeping your circle small”

to the, like the best of your ability and a certain sense

that like, you know, remind you who the fuck you are like with all your wards and shit. Cause all that, all that, like the social media stuff is all about like cleansing. And it's sort of like the uncanny valley thing

that we were talking about like perfect skin and like, it's all going towards this ideal of what you like wish you would be perceived as. Versus like the people closest to you know,

“like that's what I think true love is too.”

It's like seeing someone with all their like snakes and wards and all the fucking ugly shit and still being like, no, like I love that person. - Yeah, I don't like the whole red flag thing or whatever the fuck it's called.

What the, um, with like dating and shit? - Yeah, it's like last year. - Yeah, it's the rest last year. - Yeah, everyone's fucking, everyone's fucked. - Yeah, everyone's fucked.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can maybe, there are certain things, maybe you can be like, alright, that's a little too much. But, yeah, I agree, man.

It is, uh, I don't know, I, I feel, I just, you know, I also think for younger people to have all your social interactions, essentially possibly be filmed. - Yeah, fucking nuts. - Nightmare, dude.

If you'd film me back when I was like drinking in college, yeah, that was happening. - Oh, I have like, I didn't know how I escaped. - I don't know how I escaped. - We have like pictures you put on Facebook,

but like dude, the filming of like just,

there's someone almost always filming everywhere.

- Yeah, it's not any even time, man. - And that's why, like, that's why so much, I'm sure you see it at your shows and shit, like that's it. Maybe it's a little different for comedy, but like, every concert I go to.

It's like, everybody's stiff as a fucking board and just sitting there with their phones, sucks. No one fucking dances anymore. Like, I don't know. We'll see what actually happens.

I hate getting into, I feel like every conversation too, just has this basin of like, world's fucked. Like, everything sucks. - Dude, world is not fucked. Like, I'm here doing a podcast with fucking Babma Cowsker,

and you know why, bro? Because I, I did, like, I took a fucking risk. And like, I saw something that was interesting.

“I worked my ass off, and like, I know that's how you got here too.”

Like, there is a way to make your dreams come true, even in this gnarly world. - Yeah. - A year ago, I was listening to this podcast, working in a restaurant, like, never made a movie.

And, you know, not fucking patting myself on the back. What I'm saying is like, I'm not different from anyone else. Like, the only thing I did was, be like, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna try this.

I'm gonna make it clear, and I'm gonna, yeah. - I like that a lot. Even if, again, it's like, it's scary putting stuff out and people can be like, you're full control. You're full control, you're full control.

You're full control machine. And it's like, you have it. You don't, you don't reap any. And again, that gets into the whole, like, there's certain goods.

There's certain things that are good that are internal to doing a thing.

Like, if your movie made a billion dollars,

that's an external reward. - You haven't been a billion fucking bucks. But then there's, like, the inner growth that happens of, like, I went to the movie. I weathered criticism.

I met people. I talked to people. I had it confront my idea coming back. And, and there's, like, a thing you get that grows inside of you, that's just like, it's a benefit.

No one can take away. And I don't know, I think it's amazing. I think it's sick. Just, like, getting out there and fucking, I'm going to rip this thing and do it and see what happens.

“- That's what was cool about YouTube, too, man.”

They're there to anxious. So, like, I mean, you guys have been using that, like, for years now, and YouTube rules. I love YouTube, man. It's just fucking awesome.

- Yeah, it's sick. And also, it's, like, freedom, like, it's, like, the most free market of every, I mean, obviously you can, like, pay for views and all that. - For sure.

But, like, dude, you can watch my movie, your podcast and, like, some dude, like, putting burgers in his fucking underwear. And, like, that guy will win, too. Like, that's what sick is like.

- Well, no, I'll see my movie and it's like, bro, I almost killed myself making this thing. And it's like, some chick, like, falling off a staircase. I'm like, that is better. - Like, like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

It's like 12 million views, yeah, exactly. - Well, dude, I can't thank you enough, man. I think, you know, I'm pumped on what you're doing. I mean, obviously you're marketing genius. - Yeah, dude, I'm pumped for you, man.

- Thank you so much. - Thank you so much for having me. I just got a quick shout out to the whole team, the MIT, like helped me with all of this stuff. Shout out, hard voice history podcasts,

translisers is coming. And, yo, shout out, you guys, like, I have seen so many people that I've, like, listened to and looked up to and all this stuff, like, get limelight and go off the rails.

And, like, I just want to say, as, like, one of the dogs that has, like, been here for a while, like, thank you so much for just holding it down, like, keeping it real, like, you and Shane are just, as real as it gets.

And, like, this podcast is the best. And, I don't know, man, it just means a lot that, like, when you see a lot of people get all that pressure and start to crumble or, like, more fun stuff, it just is cool, especially as someone who's, like,

trying to do stuff and put things out there to have an example of, like, you don't have to change. Like, there's a way to do this and, like, keep yourself to yourself. - Or appreciate that, man.

I really do. - I appreciate you. - No, that's a, that is a nice source of pride it was a pride of not just becoming like a freak. - Yeah, I'm sure it's hard, pal.

- Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just, it is not really, honestly. - Yeah. - I'm kept eternally humble. Shane's the god of my YouTube University.

I was talking about what I do to you. (laughing) - That's time, that's time.

- I could never try to flex like I'm cool.

- I guess he is just like the marshmallow man taking all the fucking like arrows. - He's dude, he's just all right.

he's just my fucking.

- He's probably calling you marshmallow man.

- He's my Sunday. - He's my or a Sunday as you go off to.

“- No, he's, he's honestly most impressive on that”

'cause it's like, he's like a legit celebrity.

- He's literally his own brodom is so,

it's just so strong. - Yeah. - Remaining a bro is tough. The world will try to unbroken you,

and he's just, his brodom is,

he's literally a bro statue. - He's amazing. - He's unhoofable. - I know him, bro. - He was built for this thing.

- I mean, it's unbelievable. - There's no line of fucking bullshit. - If anyone could become for real,

“just like kind of a cont, he could legitimately be like,”

no, I, I've earned it. I'm gonna be a little bit of a gun. - He's too stoic of a bro, it's unbelievable. - That's sick, dude. - It's bro, it's gross, it's gross, it's gross.

- It's gross, it's gross, it's gross, it's gross, it's gross. - Yeah, you gotta write that book next here. (laughing) - Thank you so much, brother. - Thank you, thank you.

“- Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane secret podcast”

on Spotify. - Do it.