Athena Strand Killer Sentenced, Clavicular Battery Charges, and Dark Chatbot Evidence in USF Murders, with Producer Natasha

Hello, Ashley former Florida Law woman. Now, a resident of the great state of Georgia, we've got some really cool topics today. Yeah, we do. So let's talk about it. Let's see what we've got on the

“day. So first we're going to talk about social media influence or braiden Peter. He is known online as Clavicular. That's kind of a fun word to say three times in a row. He is in legal trouble. Quite a bit of it.”

From battery to fraud to a possible wildlife offense. We'll give you all the details.

To University of South Florida doctoral students were tragically murdered in April. There's always a Florida connection to everything.

Always. Yeah. We'll discuss the suspect, and this is such a troubling case. There's crazy evidence that investigators say they have on him. And later, we're going to discuss the emotional end to the Athena Strantrial. We've been covering that here, and we were lucky enough to have our senior producer who was actually in the courtroom when the Texas jury actually voted and handed down that death sentence for killer Tanner Horner. But first, let's get started with look, Maxar, braiden Peter's aka Clavicular. So Dave, I know we were talking about this before we started.

I know you're up on all the teen influencers. No, it's a big killer for those that don't know.

There he is. They come Clav. Clav. Oh, Clav, even better. Right. It's part of this thing called look smacking. It's like we're guys. It's started from insel movement. So you know what insels are actually not really. Okay. So I'm teaching myself.

“Hey, I'm older than you. So so insels are in the involuntary celibate. That's people who can't get a date. Can't find a woman to have sex with and that's what they call.”

Like on purpose, this is like a chosen thing. No, this is no just there by accident.

No, in in the insel stands for involuntary. So it's not voluntary. They just don't want to like take a shower and brush their teeth apparently or they just have no game. And so of course, in today's culture, they blame it on the women. So they have this whole group where they just, you know, I said, should talk about women and they just and and they feed the anger amongst themselves and that it's like a group that loves people like Andrew Tate and these horrible showveness out there who just want to blame women for everything. And so you have these dudes who are like insels and really they need to get out of their parents basement and like find a job.

It sounds like yeah, maybe you know, floss every now and then it would help their their chances be women shower. Yeah, right. And what happens is that they're part of these groups all of the internet and and now that morphed into a subgroup called this looks smacking movement, which is I'm going to make myself so good looking the women are not going to be able to resist this is by the way, that's them talking don't use that clip against me like I'm saying it firsthand.

“So they do things like inject themselves with weird things, nothing that's approved by the FDA.”

And the clavic killers known to take take hammers and smash his skull so that his bones and his nose everything is just reshaped into this six million dollar man and this is where he is he's he's a ripe old age of like 20 years old, which is he's destroying himself and in more extreme cases what they do is they take steroids as well and all. Yes, there it is. There is right. This is like a recipe for an early death, you know, yeah, look at that look at that, but that is not a natural body with like with like a plastic like body armor and I guess there are I think they're more men who actually take to him than women because he has told people we foreign shows that he can't be intimate with women and if he ever did it would it would be like an instant and he just so I think he's there leaning into the

celibate part of him so he though in today's culture he's become a big celebrity not just in that world but in the online world and he's also been associated with a bunch of alleged crimes. Yeah, sounds like it sounds like maybe he was not getting any and so he decided he wanted to do this looksmaking to make himself more attractive and then the result actually didn't work out so well. I didn't really know. No, I mean, someone who has literally beat their face in with a hammer. No, and I actually was funny.

You know, this is not my demographic, you know, the 20 year old teen influencers so I actually asked I happened to have you know a pool at my house to ask so I asked my 18 year old. She said if you heard of this guy and a first she's like no and then she's like she'd asked her 16 my 16 year old sister she definitely would know and then she was oh he's the looksmaking guy and actually wrote down what she said it was hilarious.

Basically the male version of body shaming and I said oh well that's interesting and then I said well you know how does he get with girls and she laughed and said does he so I guess the you know the picture has gotten out but yeah he's gotten in some legal trouble recently it sounds like.

“Yes so there's so many issues but that's self he's got like a half a million Instagram followers he's been profile by the New York Times and she cute and yes I read the New York Times profile which is why I know all about collab.”

He's out there on the in Miami a lot South Florida there's always a Florida connection always a Florida connection well isn't that where he he recently collapsed in Miami.

Yeah so he was taking selfies with his fans at him on Miami and he collapsed and began just he then he got up he started slur as words he then became unresponsive and he was hospitalized. I thought that was perhaps an overdose so Peter's make a collab told his followers that he does use substances to feel neurotypical what does that mean I don't know I only know neurodivergence so I don't know if that means like heightened neurotypical like normal because. He's taking the substances to feel not autistic I'm guessing yeah well he said the worst part of the incident was how this life support mask this breathing auction from made his face look.

“So I don't know these guys are the wrong party here yeah that it's okay like you don't have to hear anywhere this crazy is because it was just pollute your mind and your ears because.”

This is the worst of society this is like when people say the next generation is in trouble well I always believe every generation says that about young people but.

These people I mean we'd never see anything like this before there's nothing that young kids did what the listen a rock and roll back in the day well how about smashing your face with a hammer and injecting yourself with like. A tire inflator to improve your cheekbones right I don't know I don't believe this whole smashing your face thing that just seems insane to me I think he's lying I think he's totally lying and I think some of these these other things might be part of the scheme. So he was recently arrested though I guess in February so the first rest was out in Arizona so he's got a he's got a slew of arrests that he's piling up here had a fake ID and drug possession.

But apparently the drugs so they found at all and he says he had a prescription but he didn't on him and then an anabolic steroid.

“But they've dropped the charges because they said they didn't have a reasonable likelihood of conviction so what does that tell you tells me I think that the drugs probably didn't test well but.”

Yeah yeah yeah so also it's always tough when you when you have like at a raw which is a prescription drug that's used by so many people if that's the basis of your charge.

And you know you can you can say you had a prescription or then maybe a doctor will come by later and say well I I gave him a prescription even if he didn't have there's so many ways you can. But they did come see the fake ID so they can bust them on under his drinking I guess but yeah right to be that that was never going to be a winner but in late March he was also arrested on misdemeanor battery and criminal conspiracy to commit misdemeanor battery in. A lot of ale again always a Florida connection so he so you have this 19 year old woman who alleged that Peters and his girlfriend which I didn't know even had a girlfriend because he's involuntarily so but.

24 year old violet lens battered her at a kissimmy home rented by Peters now what's interesting is that kissimmy is nowhere near for a lot of it all that's near Disney world I so I don't even get how the kissimmy case made it down. To Fort Lauderdale it's like four hour drive away I don't know but Peters and lens refuses to speak to officers and then the officers reviewed video and interview witnesses and they concluded that clap. Start of the fight so he could post an on social media for engagement so he was arrested for misdemeanor battery and then there's the allegation that he shot a handgun at an alligator in Everglades but then they found out I guess the alligator.

Was dead before he shot at it in fact we have a sign on this about class shooting an alligator let's see this. I think that getters. Shadow make sure. Yeah I think it's dead. I can't hear shit. What do you mean? Yeah it's definitely dead. Yeah what the fuck.

I never get to prosecute one of those days when you were a prosecutor. Well we did fish and wildlife referrals yes but not specifically killing an alligator.

“But that I mean that video would be enough to get them but if the alligator was already dead and it looks like they determined the alligator was dead beforehand I don't know how you do that you do an autopsy the alligator I don't know.”

I don't know how you do that alligator was dead. We could just tell it because the alligator floating yeah wasn't playing dead it looked pretty dead. Okay all right well that makes you a little better but I mean just also to think that you can do that on camera and just get rewarded by more followers is pretty gross you know the needs to be consequences for this guys at a control and there's not going to get it from that so there's something else going on though actually isn't that. So this is the really crazy one so I want to read this one the battery and fraud lawsuit that just happened this one is absolutely crazy and I want to point out a couple things that I just think when I read it I'm like we what so there was a teen influence or from Florida.

She is known as allora apparently she just filed a lawsuit against Peter's against the clav on April 28 so very recently she's got a ton of followers and she is suing for fraud, battery and intentional affliction of emotional distress and unauthorized publication of name and likeness so apparently she was working for him when she was an aspiring social media influencer and he was trying to recruit her to be the female look smacker. She collaborated with him and then she signed who knew signed a contract to promote online trading platforms for 15 grand a month and apparently she's now saying that Peter's has discredited her but this is the really interesting thing so this this girl.

“A Laura said that at some point before the relationship sowered he paid her to take a new per paid pay for an Uber for him for her to go out to his parent home in Cape caught okay.”

So then he says she says that he served her vodka and she got so drunk she couldn't consent to sex. Two drunk to consent to sex fell asleep woke up the next morning having sex yet again with him without his consent without her consent.

Then she took an Uber home didn't see him for six months okay so first I thought he couldn't get it up sorry but didn't you say that he's got so much testosterone he can't perform so.

He said he said that he said it would take him one minute so he is forcibly you know he's raping her without consent then obviously without consent the night before and then in the morning I mean he's going two times in 12 hours like definitely inconsistent there. But then we've got another event in November where she's at this partying network event in Miami he compliments her says you're looking hot invites her to a party and she went in live streamed so this guy that you're saying. And then I mean I mean I mean it doesn't make any sense and then and then let's him inject her with this I've never heard of this aqua licks I feel like I haven't heard of anything today I feel like I'm living on a rock aqua licks it's an injectable I feel like I know all the good injectables but it's an injectable and it is apparently not FDA approved for dissolving fat but on camera injected her.

“Actually have a stop for that these actions I'm going to see this right.”

So I have like what I don't like is that I have like this.

All right so let's do a moment relax. Need more slow so it's like that's there. Yeah this is a fat dissolver called aqua licks and then you can easily buy it on my yeah. It is very intimate. It is very intimate.

You know what you think about that Caleb needs to do this you're crazy. It was all like this shit too. What's it? No we didn't really get that area. Yeah we'll do that for aren't too we're just going to keep it chill for this one because that one has a tendency to bleed a lot I've done this for a few people.

It's like Dr. pimple popper with injectables is just bizarre if this whole thing is bizarre but. I don't think he likes it. He's going to like this to do that you know like since he can't start injecting things and and then what is wrong with her for yeah okay just you know she wants to look what more youthful it's like you want to see. People learn life lessons but you know she was offered 15 thousand dollars a month by a trading company to be their spokesperson.

A trading company me what stock trading options. I'm going to listen to a general influencers that's putting injections and her chiefs right there.

Yeah that's the spokesman. Thank you.

“I'm going to throw my money at the person who's like yes.”

Clab want to inject something that's not approved by anyone into my skin. Oh and I know you're not a doctor because you're an insult.

And and so she's getting this done now she did say that because of this procedure it did get botched shot and then right she lost her contract like she couldn't be the spokesman.

I couldn't be the spokesperson for this trading company any longer because her cheeks didn't look good so she couldn't give trading advice. I totally got that it makes perfect sense. I feel as though this this this family of influencers are going to be the gift that keep on giving these lawsuits and these assault charges so I'm sure we'll have more to talk about with them. You may have tried everything out there to aid your metabolism right and stay healthy diets detox teas juice cleanses and other so called miracle fixes that are often just hype.

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Veracity health dot CO and use the code mk for up to 65% off your order once again that's v-r-a-c-i-t-y health dot CO for up to 65% off and make sure you use our promo code mk upon checkout. I'm dying to talk about this case down in USF which is actually my right by my hometown. I mean I grew up in clear water and they were driving in clear water. This is crazy. This is like my back door. So tell us you're down there in Florida. I know you're really involved in this case talking about it. Tell us what's going on.

This is a disturbing case and I know we joke that everything seems to happen in Florida but it's really tragic because you have these two young people who are engaged we married and they end up dead and they all point to the roommate the creepy roommate of one of them who has a bad temper his own parents said bad temper and we don't know a motive but we know that the body of the male ended up near a bridge over in clear water. Over in clear water and the second the female looks like her body was also found at the same location. Now he said I don't know anything about that location. I didn't speak them. I don't know what happened to them.

And then he finds out that his phone apparently was pinging in that area so he said oh yeah I did give them a ride to that area like okay. Wow major lie already and that's just a start of the lies actually. Yeah so these are two doctoral students apparently who were killed and the sky is now facing murder charges. It sounds I mean it sounds like the details are really grizzly I mean they're really awful but both of these people were 27 they were from Bangladesh originally. I've seen it's been nearly two weeks ago in Tampa. Well as you said one of the bodies was found a week later two days after that the other body was found really decomposed and the roommate.

So one of their roommates is the one that's actually been charged with the death and the judge ruled that he just appeared in court on Tuesday said that he's going to be held into attention and see a white trout which isn't really surprising. Not at all that he wouldn't get up on but apparently the charges have a pretty interesting timeline and some of the purchases and we talked earlier this week about things that people purchased but in this case.

The timeline and what he did I mean this is one of the first cases I've ever seen with chat GBT we've had Google searches but let's just talk a little bit about how this sort of unfolded.

April 7th and April 11th there were some Amazon purchases that he made allegedly made several purchases on Amazon duct tape trash bags lighter fuel and fire starter. Interesting yeah.

“And then the chat GBT did you get the chat GBT conversation?”

Yeah he said like about taking a body out to the dumpster. What happens if a human has put in a you put a human in a black garbage bag. Assault in a dumpster and throw the dumpster dumpster. Yes and that that chat was three days before the two victims the moon and bristie were last in the live. And then ask how they would find out right right and chat the chat bot responded well it sounds dangerous.

It's like he wanted to be caught so later when law enforcement caught up to him about his lies about his searches and they didn't interview with him of course he said he didn't know anything all that stuff.

And there was a bandage around his pinky like oh so how'd you get that right.

Oh I was chopping onions.

“Okay so what were you making? I don't remember. Okay I mean right away guilty is charged this guy.”

He's not only a bad criminal he's an idiot and right just just. Yeah his phone too I mean they were they were checking his phone locations too right. Yes yes yes they phone locations. I mean and his parents like you know the his parents didn't do many favors by saying he's got a bad temper. Yeah he blew up a people and then when they caught him they had to.

With guns drawn he was like half naked he wouldn't come out. They actually were resting in for another crime domestic violence.

And so he wasn't coming out of his home.

I mean the whole thing it's like one after the next is and yeah we're showing a picture in the screen of him coming up. That's that is not how you want to be arrested for a crime put on your pants boy. Right oh my god. Yeah yeah the next thing is going to be the munchot I mean not good definitely not good.

“Not a good munchot the whole thing is terrible.”

We'd at least know that his phone location showed him in the vicinity and then showed him traveling all the way over to Clearwater which is my hometown. And then this was interesting he got a door dash order for trash bags later that night. It's like door dash for lightsaw wipes okay so door dash he door dash is trash bags. Lysaw wipes and for breeze from oxygen needs why would you need that right after Lysaw wipes and for breeze he must be a clean free right.

And then his other roommate sees him using a cart to move cardboard boxes from his room to a compactor trash dumpster outside of their apartment complex.

Yes well when police search that dumpster they found the moans student ID and credit cards. Why would you do that well how do I end up there is that normally where you put your materials do you take your credit cards actually normally your student ID and thrown to the dumpster. Yeah not a good facts for him and then brilliant brilliant criminal goes back to chatty pt goes back to chatty pt and ask again. Our cars checked at the Hillsborough River State Park. Wow you know what the rest of it yeah and so then he gets on the bridge the bridge you know you know that bridge between Tampa and.

Clearwater Courtney Campbell bridge right. No he actually got on the Howard Franklin. You know. You know Courtney Campbell and Howard Franklin. Courtney Campbell is a causeway that goes to my home.

Yeah so he goes on this bridge which goes over Tampa Bay for those that aren't familiar with it goes over the bay and apparently. He goes twice between one a.m. and fourth thirty a.m. apparently from the search warrant affidavid. Seeing they looking at a phone and the traffic data you know they've got of those cameras and stuff so they can pretty much figure that out. So he's going back and forth to Clearwater and then we've got them both apparently officially reported missing. Then they pleased the next day search and they actually find.

Well he I was going to say you know what they've got so much evidence at least. They didn't find any blood it is recess because that would be the end of him right. Oh my gosh. So what else they find but what do they find when they search his residence? Well they found out that he struggled started with anger management and then he was violent with his family and had a TPO against him.

He's been arrested on battery multiple times charges have been dropped. So I mean he definitely has some histories and brother filed for that TPO to try and keep him away. So I mean they definitely found some crazy stuff. Oh well I was I was setting up for saying they found traces of blood. Oh in the apartment.

In the apartment.

“That's crazy. That's why I like I don't know not even actually merchant can get this guy out of this crime.”

It's so bad it's so bad. We just don't know the motive of but you know these two young people were in love apparently and he's a weird roommate who had his anger issues and who lies a lot. And there's a mountain of evidence against him so. No it's not it's really not good. He'll be eligible for the death penalty by the way.

There are enough aggravators here expect that was the reason. Definitely didn't they also find so they found some of the blood but didn't they also find like a wallet. I think they found one of the people's wallets of foam case. Some glasses and all of that had blood on it. So and then his car was recently apparently cleaned.

So he's you know he's definitely left his mark there. And I did check that apparently Florida is starting to use the death penalty a whole lot more. Apparently your governor has decided that it is you know time to bring back the death penalty in the state of Florida. Well, he's making it a lot easier, right? Well, well, the legislature passed the law after the evil.

The evil murderer of the Marjorie, Tom and soman Douglas. Massacre when he was able to a birth the death penalty by a nine to three vote, which was nice in favor of death and three opposed. That was enough because you needed a unanimity in Florida the time not anymore. I know which is crazy. I don't think that's going to withstand.

That's I don't think that'll be constitutional when it's happens. But you know, I don't think anybody cares. They want it.

“Well, you know, I think that is this case.”

I don't think he'll get eight. I think he'll get more than that because this. I don't know though. This guy is not so pathetic. I mean, with the Marjorie Stom and Doug this defendant.

He was 19 years old. They dressed him up like a child with the oversized glasses. And the men and his brother sweats or sweat or so. Yeah, but this guy, I don't think he can put makeup on a pig. Right.

Now, this is this is awful. So I would not be surprised, like you said, if they seek the death penalty. But next up, we have a special treat.

“We have our senior producer Natasha Malone.”

She is joining us straight from being in the courtroom for the Tanner Horner-Senencing trial verdict. We're going to talk about the final days of the trial. Catch you up on all that. What Athena's family said to the convicted killer after he received a death sentence.

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An air doctor comes with a 30 day money back guarantee plus a three year warranty, which is an 84 dollar value free. Get this exclusive podcast only offer now at airdoctorprote.com using promo code true crime. Welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. Joining us now is the senior producer of the MK True Crime Channel Natasha Malone. It's really special because normally Natasha's behind the scenes doing some great work, but now she's making her debut on the show.

Because Natasha, you are there in the courtroom this week with a Texas jury since seven year old Athena strands killer.

Tanner horned to death by lethal injection. First off, it's great to have you here Natasha welcome to the show.

Thank you Dave. Thank you Ashley. This is very interesting being on this side of the show. So thank you for having me. You're a natural for it. And let's take a look at the verdict. Watch this. Ancestors, special issues, special issue number one whether there's a probability that the defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute a continuing threat to society. Answer we the jury unanimously find me on the reasonable doubt that the answer to special issue number one is yes signed by the presiding juror.

Special issue number two, whether taking into consideration all the evidence, including the circumstances of the offense, the defendant's character in background, and the personal moral culpability of the defendant deries a sufficient mitigating circumstance or circumstances to warrant that a sentence of life imprisonment without parole rather than the death sentence being posed. Answer we the jury unanimously find that the answer to special issue number two is no sign by the presiding juror. Mr. Honour, if you'd say in please, the order of the court that you tenderly and horners been adjust to be guilty of the offensive capital murder is found by the jury.

During having answered the special issues, making it mandatory that your punishment be death. It is therefore the order of this court that your punishment be death. Okay, I got to start out with this. Why is his lawyer not standing next to him? I'm sorry. I know that's not a popular opinion, but that's your job.

Get up and stand next to him. Not just shocked me when I saw it. I could not believe I never see defense lawyers not standing next to their client, especially when they're taking a death sentence.

So I just had to react to that. I'm sorry, but you know, we all knew it was coming. I don't think any of us are sad about it. I'm not going to lose any sleep, but it's your job stand next to your client. So sorry. He wanted to be out of there. Like as if he didn't want to be associated with like almost hated man. He got death threats too. Not only horners, but the lawyer got death threats.

And we all got death threats because of this doesn't work like that.

Yeah, yeah, that was the first thing on Tuesday morning when we all were seated and ready to go. The defense team stood up and said, you know, we have to get the death penalty out of the jurors hands because of the media.

“This has been an international, you know, case, everyone's covering it. And, you know, that's true. And the lawyers did get death threats, but I think in the end, but the judge was very quick judge George Gallagher of Terran County.”

He was very quick to say denied and move on to the closing arguments. Yeah, he knew what they were doing. I mean, they're preserving a record. They're doing their job. So Natasha, I'm really curious for you. This was your first time in court, right? Yes, this was my first time ever in court. That's so crazy. Because you, I mean, you watch trials. Yeah, not even during the fight.

No, I've never had jury duty. I would love to have jury duty now that I know something more about our legal system.

But no, it was fascinating. I'd never been to a courtroom. I never sat in on a trial, let alone a death penalty trial, and let alone a trial that was so close to my heart.

“I think listeners just to know the background of why, you know, we've been covering this case so heavily and why I've been kind of more involved covering this is because this happened in my hometown of boy Texas.”

It's something that no one ever thinks is going to happen where they live.

And it happened literally a mile from my house four years ago, November 2022.

And it just shocked our community and it's haunted our community for four years. I literally drive by the spot where Tanner Horner killed and dumped Athena Strand. This beautiful seven year old child. I have to drive by that spot every single day for four years. And so it was really important for me to be in that courtroom for the closing arguments and for the verdict. And you know, I don't know Athena's family. I did not know her. But for this to happen in my hometown and, you know, it just your face to face was a monster. And I'm so glad that, you know, at least now that the sentence in trial is over the family of Athena may have, you know, begin to have some closure and this, but that's why, you know, I felt the need to go on Tuesday and be there in person and see what, you know, my fellow peers, you know,

deemed appropriate for this monster. Well, I mean, and you're, you're a part of this community and this is touched you. Did you feel a sense of closure being there? I did. I think it's at least the beginning of closure. I'm not, like, staunch death penalty supporter, but I think if there ever was a reason to hand down a death sentence, this would probably be it.

“I mean, he did the worst thing a human being could ever do and it's just unconscionable what he did and to stand in that courtroom and actually see him face to face.”

And at one point, I'm mistakenly made eye contact with him and it was terrifying. It was, it was really like looking evil in the face and like how, how could you do this to this beautiful seven year old girl. You know, it was, it was like a jolting moment for me. It was, it was extremely shocking to be in the presence of someone who did this and who looks like everyone else. I mean, you know, we see his picture. We've played, you know, you know, it was that's from the trial where he's in it and he literally looks like your average dude, you know, that's something. Yeah, your average, you know, contractor FedEx driver who probably delivered packages to my house.

So yeah, it was, I really needed to be there on Tuesday and I'm glad I went. Okay, did you know any members of the jury or members of in the Xadicorum like the prosecutor defense lawyers? No, I don't know any of them personally, but I become a huge fan of the Wise County District Attorney James Stanton. He, oh my goodness, watching him work, he was amazing. He has done such a great job throughout this trial. There was one moment. I think we do have a side of this that absolutely took my breath away and he literally pulled out

And I don't want anybody to ever forget what kind of warrior that little girl was. I don't know if anybody could have could have listed what she was doing.

They can choke her, he can beat her, he can do it over and over again. But what do we know? We know the end result was rockier. This is what it took.

“That's what it took to beat the life effort. If the facts were not bad enough, hit the sexual assault wasn't bad enough. The level of violence that one person can inflict on a child, including stomping them with a pair of shoes.”

And I wonder where that trip like print came from anymore, because we know he was he I mean he was really good and I can tell you having watched a lot of death penalty cases wrote a lot of transcripts.

A lot of times the prosecutors are really over the top and I mean he, you can tell that he just felt the facts were there. He didn't need to go over the top.

He didn't need to be quoting Bible verses and standing on tables. Yeah, like it was just this is what it is and it almost it almost felt like he felt bad that he had to ask for the death penalty, but he didn't have any other choice and I mean it was compelling that was compelling. That's that's great lawyer right there. Yeah, you go ahead and attach us.

So no, yeah, no, definitely a hero of mine now. And I do have to say like the defense they were just doing their job, you know, they had to do it and thank God for that.

You know, I accidentally did sit in the defense section when I got there because there weren't a lot of seats and I was through all the open chairs were exactly yes. The reason why they're empty seats. And I felt bad. I felt bad for them because, you know, they have been demonized and they, you know, they have gotten death threats and it's not their fault.

“This is, you know, they have to do as you guys know as criminal defense lawyers, this is the other part of it, you know, you have to hold the state accountable and you know, they were doing their job and you know,”

I think they kind of, I don't know, missed the boat with their closing a little bit where they were really like trying to say, oh, Tanner is remorseful like he's found God, you know, he may not say he's sorry, but he is and I think I think the jury honestly checked out at that point. I think they really did and, you know, that they, they just couldn't, they couldn't go along with that line of thinking on Tanner. I mean, you're, you're an accomplice of fence lawyer. I mean, you have a small community. You have a notorious crime and you have overwhelming evidence and you have sexual abuse, which is just going to poison the minds, I mean, that's it.

“And this like there's, you can't overcome it. I don't know. So, what would you have done as a fence lawyer, just try to, get a plea where you take the death penalty off the table?”

I would have focused more. I mean, it's, I'm sure they tried to do that. I'm sure that they tried to get a plea because I mean, he, you know, he pled guilty and only went to trial on the death penalty. So my guess is that they tried to do that and this prosecutor just wouldn't, wouldn't give on that. If I had been defending him, I would have been arguing more about death and a death sentence being different and arguing. So Texas has a really unique death penalty statute. There are the only state that has this finding that has to be made of future dangerousness. So for the jury to impose death, they actually have to find that you're a future danger.

And so I would have focused more on that because you're not going to win on these facts. These facts are awful. And a future dangerousness finding, it's, it's not something that's easy to make. And so I think you could argue. If you think about it, you know, to find future dangerousness, you're basically saying that the state of Texas cannot protect other inmates from him, if he goes to prison, that he's so violent that he's going to be like Superman and get out of his chains and stuff and kill other inmates.

Where I would have focused more on that, that, you know, the law says for you to impose the most ultimate penalty of death, you have to find beyond a reasonable doubt, unanimously, that he is a few, that he can't be controlled, that he is a so dangerous that you have to put him down, essentially.

And, you know, you have to tap into, do we have the right as human beings to decide when to just, you know, when to extinguish life. And, you know, everybody on the jury has to be death qualified. So they have to be willing to vote for the death penalty, but that doesn't mean that they're going to.

The more you can tap into that, you know, just the, the weight of what this is because you're never going to win on the facts. He's not sympathetic. He's not. He's not sympathetic.

He's not. And then, I mean, they're trying to explain that that's part of his sickness and his psychosis, but it doesn't make you like him. It makes you easy to, to want to chew them, you know, or stick a needle in him. It makes it really easy.

“And so I think focusing on that might have been a more chance, but I don't know that they were as a whole lot they could do. I mean, it's just these, these facts are really, really awful, really awful.”

Soon, Natasha, we've been doing a lot of talking. I want to know what your questions are. You said you had some questions for us. I'm dying to know what your questions are about the whole process. Yeah, yeah. So my first question is when you have the situation, when it's a decision between life without parole or the death penalty, do you prep your client with both outcomes? Like, this is what's going to happen. Life without parole, this is death. Like does he get, does he get a pep talk before the verdict happens?

Like, I, I just, I wanted to know all of that because I really didn't see the defense team interacting with him like at all. I saw them writing back and forth a little bit, but, but that's it. Yeah, I definitely do. I mean, I go over all the possibilities and particularly because you don't want your client, no matter what the sentence is, you don't want a spectacle in court. That's not good for anybody.

And so you want to maintain that sort of decorum. I always tell my clients going in, this is what the options are. This is what's the next step.

“Because I think it's really important to focus on next steps. He has an automatic right to appeal. He's going to be appointed a lawyer. You know, and it's hard because at the end of a trial you're exhausted.”

You're emotionally exhausted. Even if you like your client, don't like your client, you're emotionally exhausted. And you have been on 24/7, your brain is fried. I mean, every, you're exhausted in every form of the word. And you're still trying to remember, I got to still do my job. And I always try to make sure that I have those conversations ahead of time with my client, you know, night before repeatedly at a break. If there's a lunch break, you know, while you're waiting, they waited three hours for the verdict. So that would have been a good time to talk about it.

So they, you know, based on his reaction, I'm guessing that they did talk to him ahead of time. I also think, you know, he definitely has some issues and his affect was off.

But I think that they would have prepped him for that, and that's really important. But a lot of times when you go back after you probably saw him, there was a holding cell. We go back with our clients after. And I can tell you a lot of times I've had clients, especially depending on their age, I've had some of them that were stoic. And we're just like, okay, you told me, you prep me what's next. Here's my, you know, here's my stuff, tell my mother a lover. And then some of them just lose it. I mean, just absolutely like, you're just back in there. And I mean, I've had people just sobbing on me right there.

And you just have to, you just go back over all that stuff with them. Are you saying actually that the death penalty can be a deterrent? Because there are a lot of people out there say it doesn't deter anyone. Sounds like people really don't want it. I mean, I don't really believe in the death penalty. And you know, I've gone back and forth throughout my life over if I believe in it, if I don't believe in it. And I haven't believed in it in, you know, I haven't believed in it since I lost my father at age 22.

And I can tell you that, actually, I was, I grew up in Florida. And I was, you know, we, we like the death penalty in Florida. I'm not going to lie. We like it.

“And then when I lost my dad, it just really started to make me realize that how precious human life is and how we shouldn't be able to pick even a disgusting, horrible person.”

Like, I don't think that we should be able to pick when you die and, you know, plan how you die and work all that out. And then I sort of took it on more as a cause legally. And it's probably one of the reasons I am a defense lawyer. So I don't really believe in it. I don't believe in the deterrents. I don't believe in any of that stuff because most of the people, and I've had several people with death penalty charges. And I don't know that it would have been a deterrent because most of them have something psychologically going on that's wrong.

And they're probably not capable of that deterrents level. You know, to be deterred, you've got to be at a certain educational level, a certain capacity to actually understand that. And I don't know that they're able to really understand that. You know, Florida does like the death penalty. And it's easier and Florida than anywhere else. This crime is so senseless, so evil. And those boots are just, Yeah, you know, I would be part of the jury saying guilty and death penalty because it's like if you have it, if it's on the books.

I don't know, Natasha. Right. Yeah. What would you think about this? I mean, you're a compassionate person. I'd like to believe I am too, but I just think that it's reserved for these kinds of animals.

Yeah, I mean, I usually, you know, I go, like Ashley said, I go back and forth on it.

“But in this case, I think this is the reason why we have it.”

It's really hard to, you know, go through all the evidence that, you know, was presented in this trial and come out on the other side thinking, yeah, this guy. He deserves to have structure and jail and three meals a day and, you know, this is not good arguments. No, no, so I do think that the jury got it right, but I do have another question for you guys. So the jury had to answer two special issue questions.

And like the first one was does Tanner pose a continuing threat to society?

So they had to answer in that one first. And then they had to answer, are there any mitigating factors that in Tanner's case where light for that parole would be more appropriate than the death penalty? So they answered yes to special issue number one saying he is a continuing threat to society. And then they answered no for special issue number two saying that no life without parole is not, yes, it's not appropriate in this case. Is there ever an instance where a jury would say yes he's a continuing threat to society?

And yes, life without parole is appropriate. Yes, definitely. And I'm glad you asked that because I was actually going to ask you something similar to that. So before I, before I walk through that a little more, I wanted to ask you this.

“When you heard the jury charges, did you believe that if if the jury found yes to the first one and no to the second that they could find life without parole?”

Did you believe that? I did and here's why. Because when we were waiting, when the jury was deliberating, we were waiting around and you guys know how it is. Just hanging out in the courtroom and I honestly thought it was going to be very quick. I mean, we're in Texas, the evidence is just awful and brutal. So I was like, this is going to take five minutes. And an hour into it, the judge comes in, judge George Gallagher.

He comes in and he says the jury has questions. They want to go over videos. They want to see transcripts. They were asking for a lot. And so that that's an hour into deliberation.

And so to me that say no, oh man, someone is on the fence. Someone here, you know, thinks that maybe he should get life without parole. And so yeah, there was a moment where I thought they could say yes to that special issue. Number two. And you thought that they could say that.

Did you believe if they said yes to the first one, the future dangerousness that he basically was a future danger.

And then if they found there was no mitigation, did you think it was automatically a death sentence? I did not know that at the time. So because they don't explain it well. No, no. So it was kind of so serious. Yeah, I did not know what that meant at first.

And then the judge immediately followed it up with, well, your sentence to death. Basically right after it. And I was like, oh, this is it. So yeah, I was kind of surprising.

“There's been a lot of challenges on that because the way that we're allowed to have the death penalty is you have to have these special circumstances.”

You know, you have to make sure that that this case is different from the next case. And so there's a lot of legal history about these special circumstances aggravators versus mitigators and whether or not they have to be unanimous or not unanimous. And there's a lot of controversy with Texas is statute because the study saying I looked this up when I saw the verdict. And there's a lot of capital juries incorrectly believe that if they find future dangerousness, they're required to find death. They're required to find for death penalty.

So they've done studies on that. And when I listened, I thought that's going to, you know, I was curious what you thought because I thought this is confusing.

It almost sounds like if you vote yes for the first issue and no for no mitigation, you have to find death.

It death is the only option and it's not and you can still what your question is, can you still do life without parole? Yes, and you don't even have to identify. You can say that there's no mitigation. I just decided all of a sudden that I don't believe in the death penalty or, you know, I have a moral opposition to it or I just can't stomach it.

And so there's a lot, there's a lot of litigation about that. That's why I was curious.

“I guess for the audience LWOP is life without parole. Now, as far as the mitigators see prosecutors have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in Florida and other states that at least one statutory aggravator applies.”

For example, was the killing cold calculated and premeditated. That's a statutory aggravator. There's a list. But when it comes to mitigators, there is no list. Or can you use anything? It's an advantage for the defense like, for example, in the case of the 19 year old who slaughtered 17 innocents at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas high school. The defense lawyer said, well, his mother smoked while he was in the womb. Come on. But that may have persuaded someone. You can say anything. Whereas prosecutors have to stick to the list in the law.

Yeah. That's any of those reasons could be grounds for the for the jury.

Yeah. And they did that. They did that in this trial with Tanner Horner. They had expert, the defense called expert after expert psychologists, you know, child behavior, holist, you know, you name it.

“They called them. And apparently it costs the, you know, wise county taxpayer myself, a lot of money.”

They have these, these witnesses. And man, the DA, he just killed their whole entire defense list with one. One movement. He took out like this huge storage tub and filled it with all of the research from the defenses witnesses. He like printed them all out and filled this tub full of papers. And he said, I've gone through all of these documents. And you know what? I can't find in there. I can't find. I'm sorry. I can't find an apology. It's not there.

Yeah. And that was, he needed to, he needed to allocate. He needed to address the jury and he didn't. That was, is that because he didn't want to lose his chance on appeal or because he's autistic and doesn't understand the need to apologize or maybe he just wasn't apologetic. What's the reason why he didn't apologize? I mean, my best guess is that they figured out that he was going to be awful in the stand and it wasn't going to help. Because otherwise, you're going to put him up and you're going to have him apologize.

There must have been something that just he wasn't capable of showing remorse. I mean, that's the only reason. Otherwise, he admitted to guilt. He played guilty. Like, why would he not get up there? I mean, obviously he can be cross-examined, you know, and that would have been brutal. But all you all he needs to do is every time he's cross-examined, apologize.

Cry, say, sorry, show actual real remorse. I mean, that would have saved his life potentially.

“He could apologize, though, he could apologize in the penalty phase, right?”

Yeah, without affecting the guilt verdict. Right. I don't know, maybe another, maybe that was an error from the lawyers, but maybe the lawyer didn't really care. I mean, I'm sure he did what he had to do, but the fact he didn't stand next to him. Right, it does tell you something.

Well, we want to end with a thing as actual uncle who got to speak to Tanner at the, the sentencing and it's really powerful if we could play software. There are no words that truly captured the devastation that Tanner Warner caused us in our favor. What he took from this world is not just a child. He took a light of future in a piece of every single person who looked. He took a granddaughter, a daughter, a niece, a cousin, and a friend.

The thing was more than a headline.

She was laughing curiosity, cognizant as she had a dream that she will never give the shit.

Her business should never sell her. And a life she'll never get to live because of his actions. Tanner Warner, I don't know if you're curious, Greg. You do not just take a life, you destroy the family, and you will be judged. You will face the wrath of God. But I want you to know that you are nothing. You are a footnote in a piece of story.

Her name will forever be remembered. Her name will forever be celebrated on everyone who will forget you.

Well, thank you, Natasha, for being here.

“Natasha, you did a great job. More time in front of the camera.”

Now, all right, let's time behind the camera. Maybe. Well, thank you, Dave, and Ashley. Thank you so much for covering this trial. It really means a lot to me, you know, as a community member from where this happened. And I'm really, you know, I know the family did want the death penalty for Tanner.

And so, for that, I'm happy that the jury, you know, delivered the sentence that they delivered on Tuesday. And hopefully that is the beginning of closure for them. And thank you guys again for having me. Thank you, Natasha. And up next, your questions and our closing arguments, Nathan.

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It's almost time for our closing arguments, but first we have a question from listener Gemma.

She asks, "I love the Mk True Crime Show." On the heels of the Tanner Horner death penalty verdict, I was wondering if any of the lawyers have had the experience where a client was given the death penalty. So I know Dave's history with the death penalty as a defense lawyer. As a prosecutor, as a defense lawyer, some curious Dave, what's your experience with it?

Well, Gemma, I know that you ask about clients and defense lawyers, but as a prosecutor, your client is people. It's not the victim, but it's the people.

“Sometimes you have to make that decision to seek the death penalty.”

And you listen to the families of the victim, and that means a lot. Because of the families are opposed to the death penalty, you're less likely to seek it. But you have to consider the community in mind. And if you have someone who is a repeat offender, someone who committed multiple murders and cold blood, or is premeditated, then you're like, "I think this guy deserves it."

And you want to try to do equal justice as you can. You want to take similar cases and have the same approach. One quick anecdote about it. I remember how serious this need to be taken when I just started.

I just been elected, state attorney, I was in my first meeting.

I had the meeting of my top prosecutors, all the homicide prosecutors, and the most veteran prosecutors of the office. Because I wanted a committee to decide whether we would seek the death penalty. Ultimately, it's up to the jury to decide whether it's imposed. But I remember this one case where, at the very beginning, it's like my first meeting, and they went through the memo, and we decided the committee decided 8 to 0 not to seek the death penalty. That's okay.

They looked to me and I said, "Okay, next." And then they kept looking at me. I was like, "What?" They said, "It's your decision." It's like, "No pressure."

Yeah, I was like, "Whoa, that's a life or death decision. You rarely get a chance to make in life, and you gotta make sure you get it right every time. And we're humans or infallible.

And ultimately, it's not my final decision because it's a jury, but to seek it.

And that's when it really hit me that it can be 8 to 0 opposing the death penalty in this case. But as state attorney, it's my call. The box stops with me.

“And that's why I realized, wow, this is a very different job than being a state senator.”

Yeah, that's a crazy experience. And that's just a lot for someone to have to put on their shoulders.

You know, when they have to make that decision, definitely difficult.

Well, unfortunately, I have a client on death row. I did not represent him at trial. I represented him on his direct appeal many, many, many years ago. He is very elderly now and suffers a lot of mental illness. So I'd be surprised if he's ever actually executed.

“I think he's most likely going to die in prison on death row.”

But it was a, it was an atrocious case. And, you know, I did the appeal. So I didn't get to argue to the jury didn't get to do that. Got to argue as the Monday morning quarterback. But I actually have a case that was just death noticed.

I think I have the death notice. If our viewers are interested in what that actually looks like. It's a public document. But what Dave was just explaining about the district attorney's decision to decide whether or not to seek the death penalty.

I have a case right now where a local district attorney in the Atlanta Metro area. Did make that decision and sign the document and actually filed. What's called a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. So that's ongoing. So hopefully it will not have another client there.

But my husband actually did my law partner. He did habeas work many years ago and had a client on a habeas. Which, you know, just for our viewers, habeas is at for the appeal. So it's way down the line. But that's, I'll save that for another day.

But so Dave, we've got our closing arguments.

I'm going to let you go first.

Yeah, by the way, it says a lot about you as a criminal offense lawyer that your death penalty qualified. Very few lawyers are. You want to make sure you get the best offense lawyer because it is like life or death. So kudos to you actually. Thank you.

They're not easy cases. As you know, as you were describing, and I recognize they're not easy cases for either side. They're not easy cases for anybody. They're the worst of the worst. So there were sure reason.

They are the worst of the worst. And it's also, you know, you think about the individual, but it's the victim's family. They have to relive this if it's not imposed. The possibly a probation that you could get out. Some states have life with parole.

“And you have to keep coming back every so often to try to argue to strangers to keep this individual behind bars.”

Oh, man, that to me is just continuing to victimize these families. Actually, I'd like to wrap up this episode with a look at the case of Olivia Henderson. This is a 23 year old, door-dash driver who forgot that a food delivery isn't a license for a felony level photo shoot. You may have seen this online, this went viral. So she's a door-dash driver who was making a delivery.

And she stood out of man's doorstep. She saw him in the nude inside his own home. And instead of walking away, she hit record on her phone. She didn't just invade his privacy. She broadcasted his most private parts of the entire internet,

wrapping it in a lie about being harassed to get those viral clicks. She backed it all up by filing a police report and grads Olivia.

You got 30 million views for it.

But here's the reality check. The man was passed out drunk on the couch inside his own home. The door was not open and the only victim here was the guy in his own living room. Olivia is now facing two felony counts of unlawful surveillance. And frankly, she's getting exactly what she deserves.

This isn't just about one bad delivery. It's a symptom of a content at any cost culture where people think that someone's dignity is just raw, material for their tiktok feet. And a world where everyone wants to be the main character. Olivia Henderson just found out that sometimes the plot twist involves a pair of handcuffs.

So please, respect what the four walls of a home mean. And what limited zone or privacy we still have left in this world. And for the love of everything, just deliver the sandwich and leave. That's my closing statement. Thank you, Dave.

Yeah, we don't have a ton of privacy these days. Well, can we just talk for a little bit about how hard it is to be a mom of a high school senior in May? May is an awful month. It's graduation. Can we talk about that with everybody acting like we should all just be smiling through it?

“Because people keep saying, oh, you must be excited.”

Oh, you must be so proud. Of course, I am. I'm proud. But I have a high school senior graduating. And I also feel like someone is quietly dismantling an entire chapter of my life, a little tiny piece at a time.

I think what hits moms, especially hard, is that graduation isn't just their transition. It really rearranges your identity. For 18 years, your life has been built around being immediately needed in a physical way, with rides, forms, snacks, late night, doctor runs, CVS runs, emergency poster boards, field trip permission slips, and then suddenly everybody expects you to be nothing but happy while you're walking through the house thinking,

Why does it feel so different here?

“And then there's a level of guilt that's baked into it.”

Because this is what we want it. We raise them to leave. We raise them to become themselves to not need permissions slips, to not need us to make worth it. Don't disappointments to work on their own.

So now you're grieving something you're also incredibly proud of.

These are two completely opposite emotions sitting in the same exact place in your heart.

“And nobody warns you that senior year, judges up your own memories too.”

Your own unfinished stuff. Dreams you had of 18 regrets. Versions of yourself.

Graduation turns parents into emotional time travelers against our will.

Suddenly, a college orientation email can ruin your entire afternoon. And now you're sobbing in the grocery store next to the grocery chickens.

“Trying to keep it together, hoping nobody sees you.”

It's wondering if it's really weird to put your glasses on your sunglasses. And meanwhile, the kids are mostly fine, they're excited they're nervous, but they're really looking forward. Like they should be to the next stage. Which somehow makes it harder because you're the one that secretly morning, the little rituals that nobody notices. Hearing them come home after school, yelling dinner, the pile of shoes by the door,

driving together in silence, seeing the light on under their door, a little bit too late at night. All of those things, those little things that stuff, that's the stuff, not the graduation cap, not that. It's this loneliness in this stage that moms don't say out loud enough, especially competent, high functioning moms everybody. Assumes are handling it very well, but meanwhile, we're crying in the target of a dorm bedding. We're wondering which mini-fridge to buy our daughters to go into their dorm rooms, pretending like we're totally fine.

Because sometimes the hardest part of parenting is actually succeeding at it, and that's the cruel joke. If you do it well, they leave, they leave, they're successful, they expand, they become more independent, they don't need you. They don't need you anymore, and you didn't fail, you actually succeeded. Some of these moments are beautiful, some of them suck, some of them are all of that all at the same time. But I just want to tell everyone out there going through graduation season, I'm there with you.

And now, excuse me while I go cry over a helicopter backpack. Thank you all for joining us today, and thank you to our guest Natasha. It was so awesome to have you as a goat. She's a goat, the goat and Tasha. And my co-host the other goat, Dave Armer.

And thank you for joining us, I hope everyone has a great week.