Battle of Experts at Lindsay Clancy Trial and Chris Hansen on New Stings and Robert Pattinson Movie

Hello everyone and welcome to Positively Legal.

“I'm Mark Eiglars and my bio says that I'm a former prosecutor”

of Veteran Criminal Defense Attorney, Adjunct Law Professor, author, and a lover of Johnis Spielbore. Johnis? Oh, that's a new one, why thank you Mark. And yes, I am Johnis Spielbore Criminal Defense Attorney and founder of the law firm that bears my name,

but that's not exciting. What is exciting is the Lindsey Clancy trial. We are jumping right in, we are right in. It's in its fifth and most likely, final week. It has been a battle of the mental health experts leading up to closing arguments,

which we are expecting by the time this show airs on Wednesday. We are going to bring you our thoughts on these final witnesses. And also, we got Chris Hanson, you know that dude, take a seat.

You never want to hear that ever.

I have a lot of questions for him. I'm sure you do as well, Johnis, so excited that he's going to be on the show. And there's this new movie coming out that, you know, with that guy from what you're going to call it. You know what I'm talking about? Oh, yeah, I know the one, but one from the thing, yeah, I know him.

We'll talk about that with him. You want to stick around for that. And right now, though, right? Well, we got it's, say it, Johnis, it's. It's happy hour.

Oh, it is. It is happy hour time. Yeah. What happy? Do you want to know why I'm happy?

Tell me. I'm drinking my Zephyr scone. I am going on a tiny little mini vacation this weekend. Ooh, to tell. It's tiny little mini vacation to Ocean City, Maryland.

I have not, this is actually going to be part of my off the record later.

I have not been on vacation mark. That's right. That's right. That's right. 2010.

Listeners, do the math. I mean, well overdo. I think it explains a lot. Oh, yes. Analyzing Johnis personality.

Exactly. You need to get away, right? Okay. Oh, gosh. I guess I don't mean, you know, so I got you to do this three days.

Wait, so I, that's, no, no, don't minimize it. This is huge. A day is huge.

“Doing three days, no, wait, who got you to do this?”

So my cousin, Marla, organized it because she has gone plenty of times.

And she goes, she stays in an Airbnb.

Now, I'm going to tell you, one of the reasons why I'm a little pensive about the vacation is I'm not into the Airbnb thing. I'm not. But I did was an anticipation is I bought a little hidden camera detector that I tested out and it works.

And it's great. It's a nice little gadget. What's up? It's a. So when you go into the Airbnb, right, which is a home that somebody else owns, just walk

around. It's got a little antenna and it's got three different settings. You walk around. It's going to detect a hidden camera. The beep.

It's very loud. Yes. Wow. Perfect. Perfect.

And then you pull out the thing and you rub it over the sheets and you see the stains. What else you got, John? Yeah, the looman. The looman, all of it. I got that.

No blood. I got the portable, the portable, you know, bleach, bugging devices. You know, on anybody listening to your, you know, rants.

“Well, I think the hidden camera, the hidden camera gadget is going to solve all of that,”

right? I think. Everybody's going to put just a little bug in a lamp and there being, but you're going to have. Do you want visual if you're a creep, right?

Maybe we can ask Chris Hansen about that. Yes. I am excited for you. You're going away for three days. I can't wait to hear about it next show.

And you're going to likely say, you know what, I should have done it sooner. And what is this? This is a cousin. You're cousin. Who else?

It's a bachelor at party. Be honest. No. It's a cousin's trip. We're all cousins.

And only one of us goes to a bus, go on vacation regularly. I'm not one of them. So it's, yes, love it. Even the cats. Love it.

I'm not going to have a care in the world. What's going to be the highlight, just anticipate what you're, what are you looking forward to? What is one thing? Just taste and then we'll ask you about next week.

There is a restaurant there that I, I'm treating everybody to that we made a reservation for for Saturday that apparently at sunset, their whole thing is, you know, you've got outdoor deck. They play some sort of, I don't know, chikovsky seventh or something as the sun is setting. It's supposed to be very exciting and very viby.

And I'm looking forward to that. Very nice. And look at you, deep pockets and compassionate, dropping some serious coin to help the family. God bless you.

You are a saint.

So let's talk Lindsey Clancy.

Okay. Let's. Wow. Who is that? Who is not moved by this trial in some way or another, John.

This is captivating. It is captivating and I also think it's polarizing.

“Yes, but I will also say Mark and because I think so I think you and me are sort of on”

different sides of the fence. Can we? Can we? We probably are, but wait, just just so we don't have comments, just tell people really quick in 25 words or less as a defense lawyer says in this case, what is Lindsey

Clancy facing? And what did she what she accused of doing really quick case people don't know which one that is. Lindsey Clancy is the Massachusetts mom former nurse who killed her three young children by strangling them with exercise bands after she sent her husband out of the house so

that she would have plenty of time to do that. Then after she killed her three children, she allegedly flung herself out of

“the second story window with the whole book committing suicide, didn't die, but she is”

paralyzed from the waist down and she is now, she's different to herself by saying that she was in a psychotic break and therefore is not criminally responsible for offing her three children. I would add just a couple more facts. There's so many more, but she did slit her wrists and her neck before she jumped

out of the window and even the last expert for the state, the rebuttal witness conceded. This was a serious attempt to commit suicide and despite of the prosecutors trying to minimize it and also she was an ideal mother as testified by every person including the state's star rebuttal witness who is being crossed right now. So, okay, so that's the case.

I mean, Jenna, there's so much we can talk about. Do we want to dive into this guy, Dr. Kirk? I don't know why I keep saying that.

“I would say is the most significant witness for the state, but you agree with me, right?”

Yes, because he's one of the, so he was brought on as rebuttal to be the state's expert.

This was to me was always going to come down to a battle of the experts because of the nature

of this defense and so I was expecting the prosecution to bring out sort of their best for last, essentially. I was expecting to bring out a hired gun, they did and he might save the day for the prosecution. Let's give him a taste. Let's give him a taste.

I got into some of these clips. I really want them to get some flavor. We'll go to salt one and just so let's set this up, the defense is claiming that she heard a male voice passionately and persistently telling her to kill her children and kill herself and the time was now, she had the only opportunity when he went to CVS and by the

way the defense would argue that this was all legitimate, the states are going to argue how convenient 18 minutes is the only time she heard the voice while she's killing her kids. She's just five, three, and seven months, let's roll the sots out.

Wait, she described this as happening, is that she heard a voice that she'd never heard before

experienced an hallucination and she's never experienced it's sense but she only experienced it for the 18 minutes or so that it took to kill children and to put it mildly that would be a very, very unusual pattern or manifestation of how this kind of thing comes about. Very unusual. I've been doing this kind of evaluation for many, many years and I'm always very careful

when someone tells me that they experience the symptom only during the course of committing an event. He's supporting you, John, I'll let you go with it, you're like them. I know you do. He absolutely is and it's not just supporting, it's confirming what I have believing,

been believing for much of this case because look, I'm just saying, which is, what are you believing? If it wasn't a voice, if she really didn't hear the voice, I am of the opinion that this defense is largely manufactured and before anybody throws rocks at me, I want to say, I am not accusing the defense attorney of doing anything on toward, no, I am saying that when

you hire experts to evaluate your client and they say to you, well, you know, if she were

and so then they sit down with the client and they say, were you hearing voices and then it clients pick up on this. So I'm not saying it's manufactured intentionally, it almost can happen by us, Moses for lack of a better word, but I do not believe for a minute that she heard these voices ahead of time and that something that came about after point, now counterpoint, I will

concede first and foremost that you may be right, you may be right exactly what you just

said. We know what happens in our business. I'm giving up, we will suggest to a client, listen, don't tell me what happened, but if

“you drink, not alcoholic beer and blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever you're suggesting, right?”

I don't know why, I don't know why God gave me that one, but you know what I'm saying? I know, right, if you if you if you if you if you tell us it was a surprise adoption then we'll beat this kidnap in case, you know what I'm saying, all right, I'm joking, all right.

So on on this case, okay, I can see that that's the starting point, yes, it's possible.

But she did have this history of mental illness, she reported to her husband that she had these thoughts coming to her about harming herself and her children, there's this entire history which he's going through on cross examination right now, the states rebuttal witness that you forget about that is so impactful, her literally begging for help and he didn't say that it cannot happen, he's saying it's rare that to hear a voice for 18 minutes is rare.

He's also saying that it's also rare to have this postpartum psychosis many, many months after delivering the child that it happens, but it's rare. So Jenna, is she the rare dolphin that got caught up in the tuna net and if so, how can we be so heartless to say that you're a criminal and a mama murder or a baby murder, you're a mother who murders her kids, there I start it.

Everybody in that courtroom is going to agree on one thing and that is she definitely had a history of mental illness, she was most certainly suffering from some sort of disease of the mind, severe one, everyone in that courtroom will the experts have said that that the experts

“came out that I don't think it's in dispute, there were no I think in the prosecutor basically”

conceded, that is not where the analysis ends, right? So the rest part is where these experts have to come in and and the jury has the roughest job of all to determine whether because of that, she knew what she was doing was wrong and I am seeing plenty of evidence evidence of plenty to show to prove that she did know what she was doing was wrong. Okay, I'm going to ask you about that. But let's get another Dr. Kirk Highlbrun song and you do

that one more time, say positively, say positively legal. All right, let's go to sat number two, more of Dr. Kay, go ahead. How sad to fill aside is a term that's used that means killing your kids out of love, not because you're trying to be cruel or from material gain or because you want them out of your lives or any of that, but killing them out of love so that you could

basically they wouldn't have to suffer, so you could prevent their suffering.

And what she did, I thought was begin with what I said a minute ago was a highly lethal and very serious suicide attempt. That helps. That was preceded by months of thoughts.

“That's it. And impulses about you should harm yourself, you should kill yourself, your brain”

is damaged. That's sort of thing. And that I think is the beginning of the way to understand what happened that day. The second point is that as I've said before, she didn't like to leave her children. Whether that was for date night or school or going back to work or even plausibly analogically for children. And if she had taken her own life, then her children would have been without her and she thought that they would suffer.

All right, John, I see both sides of this, right? One, you got a voice telling you that killing the kids would be a good thing, you know, and that's why she did it. And the other thought is, okay, I do know right from wrong, whatever the state's alleging, if I'm taking

by anybody else. They'd be better off dead, too. Like, right, you buy that? You think that's she did? If I can't be your mother, nobody can be your mother. You believe that? Well, hold on, do you believe that number one, but more importantly, do you believe the state proved it? That's my question to you, John. You don't know that that was proven. Come on.

Uh, well, now hang on a second. Answer the question. Again, this guy, this guy really

posited an alternate theory, right? Because you've got the big shot hired guns that the defense brought on who have successfully said this same thing before, right? Dr. Reznik, I believe, said the exact same thing. I'm with you. They're all paid. They're all biased. They're all biased. And they're

“going to say what they get paid to say. Yes. But when it comes, so here's the thing that maybe if you”

have jurors and I hate when attorneys do this, but we might hear in this case, when you tell jurors not to leave their common sense at home, make sure you bring your common sense. When you do that,

but but the state's rebuttal experts to me make more sense. Common sense. Okay. Then the

other hired guns. And if juror does that analysis, they might come to this. All right. So more on the the voice because the voice is key either she heard a voice or she didn't. There's no test like you can do a DNA test. True. And whether someone's telling the truth, a fingerprint test did she really touch the phone or didn't she if that was an issue? This is just opinions. People who chat and their diapers, who couldn't even speak English, hear me out, who grew up, then had schooling and then somehow

now have an opinion. That's not science, John. It's just an opinion. And we all have, you know, they're like, right. So here's Dr. Dr. Heilbruns, I didn't lay into a too hard. His testimony about the voice and why he doubts that she really heard a voice. That's not number three. Let's hear that. Then the next bullet was inconsistencies in her account. To me, when asked about this,

“she said the voice said, this is your last chance. You have to kill the kids so you can kill yourself”

and it just kept repeating that and only that and only that for about 18 minutes or the duration of the time it took to do this. There were other times though, for instance, when she was in the hospital after this happened and was talking to a psychiatric attending. When she said that the voice had said other things, for example, the children will suffer without you or you have to take the kids with you or things like that. So inconsistency is important because it's

suggests an accuracy. In other words, which version is accurate? Is it the first? Is it the second?

Is it neither? I mean, here it couldn't be both because she said, I only heard this to some people. She said that and then I heard this plus this to other people. She said that. Oh, so she must be lying, doctor. You know, Jonathan, here's my problem. I don't have any mental illness that I know of and I tell different versions of different things at different times depending on how I feel. This is not an exact science and she was dope

up and there were times where they talked to her where she was not in a good place and every word is getting weighed and the fact that she added a little bit more to one person. Now all of a sudden means she's a liar. Yes, I see the person's and his raised. I will call on Janna. Go ahead, ma'am. In the back. The girl in the back. What do you want to say? Go ahead. Lindsey, Clancy, knew when she was talking to Dr. Hile Brune that he was a that he was a

prosecutor hired gun. She knows this. Yes. You can change. So, just as you kind of made an analogy

“that sometimes you'll tell a story differently depending on who you're talking to. For example, right?”

By accident, I meant, but I hear what you're saying. Go ahead. You know, so she knew that too. And at that, at the point that she talked him, because that was another thing that came up, that he had talked spoken to spoke to her long after the incident, for example, right? She had plenty of time to rehearse, to talk to her attorney, to get the feel, read the room, about what she needed to set, to make this work. I want to, we got with the, I can go on for hours

with you. And, but we got Chris Hanson coming up and before we have him, I want to get to this one.

It's not five, okay? Something happened in the trials. A second reference to religion, which didn't

belong in this trial. Let's go to such five and let's talk about it. I want to get you to. There's been a, obviously, a long trial in a lot of work on the part of everybody involved from the courts, to the staff, to the prosecutors, to myself, and needless to say, the strain on Lindsey Clancy. I have to move for a mistrial, reluctantly. The reason is that this is intentional and this conduct on the path of the prosecution.

You know, this whole idea of injecting Roman Catholic faith, the concept of model sin, into this trial based on your ruling in the past, in conjunction with the fact that they

“brought it up again. I believe it was intentional and this conduct, and I feel that the”

courts should grant emotion from this trial. Okay, so first of all, that wasn't the clip that

where he said something. This was the Hylbrun testifying about something about, he, he opined about religion. No, no, he was talking about what Clancy said to him. I know, but then he gave his opinion, because well, that's not actually true about Catholicism or whatever. He's not an expert in that. And here's the thing, the judge then stood up, that's your issue. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

regard with that guy said, he's not an expert, he's not qualified. I mean, I think that hurt the prosecution. What do you think, John? It probably did on that one very narrow issue. Yeah. But so our good friend Mark Garagos also has a theory on this because when it comes

to that religious remark, this was the second time the religious remark came up and potential

from his trial. Okay, here's why that's important because if in fact the prosecution was intentionally trying to cause a mistravel, which I don't believe they were, you can, if your mistrial is granted, it can be granted with prejudice. That means the rank gonna be a second bite of the apple. So he's preserving his, he's preserving his right to appeal, but it wasn't

“going to, and it shouldn't have been grounds for a mistrial. I think it was a minor, minor issue.”

Okay. Will you take a seat? Take a seat. Is that what he says? Take a seat, Chris Hansen. Take a seat. Yeah, right? Take a seat. I think he does take a seat, and then the bullet starts sweating. Yeah. Like, I want to know if you ever felt bad for any of these guys ever, like ever, even a tiny bit, like, I know. I'm, like, I'm, there's a lot of questions. I don't even have enough time with them,

and then you've got to probably some great questions. Stick around. We got Chris Hansen coming up next. Welcome back to Positively Legal. We are thrilled to be joined by award-winning journalist, Chris Hansen. Chris, welcome. But before we get into the great work you've been doing on your show, take down, and on the true blue streaming platform, we've all been fascinated by the Lindsey Clancy trial as someone who has dedicated their life to protecting children. I'm interested in your

initial thoughts. Well, look, we all know that postpartum syndrome is a real thing, and I don't have to

“tell you guys, you're the legal experts in a lot of this stuff. But I think it's going to turn on”

whether or not, you know, a jury feels that she was in a full psychosis mode or whether she was just depressed. And at what level between one and the other, do you find criminal culpability? And I think it was interesting this whole issue about mortal sin. And I think what they're getting at in this case is that if she, you know, was it devout Catholic as has been, you know, said, and if she understood mortal sin, then she would understand that, you know, taking the lives of those children

would prevent her from going to heaven. And there was some talk as to whether or not she wanted to meet those children to heaven. So I think there's a lot to it. I think that both defense and the prosecution have really scored some significant points here. And I think it's going to be up to the jury and who's on the jury and how sympathetic they will be to this whole issue of postpartum syndrome.

I mean, you're still responsible. Everybody understands this is a real issue, but you know,

“killing a child is killing a child. And I think that's going to be the day a hard thing for the”

jury did to look away from very hard. First of all, Chris, it's great to see you again and just

to remind you because you have no recollection of it. I do because you're Chris Hanson. So I remember you. I, I get producers. I dug up these photos. I, you got the photos so we can throw them out there. There we go. Oh, those are great. Some are from our, I watched, crime watch daily days. Yeah. That's right. And, um, and I think Nancy was standing on a box. Yeah. Yeah. They're going to keep up with us. Yeah. All enough. Yeah. It was a great five, six years ago, six, seven years ago. Yeah. Well,

that was a great show. A lot of fun with that. Wonderful to work with. Yeah. So I got to ask. All right. So let's go, let's go back to your, your take a seat days. Okay. Can you, I mean, you remember, like, the most shocking moment ever. I mean, there's so many, but is there one that stands out that was just shocking, something that when I use the word shocking, you go, yeah, Mark, let me show this with you.

“Mark, I, I think it's a hundred-way tie for first. And we continue to see shocking things,”

you know, in the current investigations today. Now, yes, I can tell you about the,

the rabbi who walked in during our second investigation who plunged at me to try to get the

picture's back that he had sent to someone he thought was a 13-year-old boy that guy in the same investigation who walked in exactly the guy in the second investigation, and that same investigation walked in naked John Cannelly who then turned up the next day, trying to meet a child, another one of our decoys at a McDonald's. I mean, it's been a series of things, not only what these men want to do to children, but the fact that it's continued for so many years.

Recently in San Francisco, we did a sting with the San Francisco County Sheriff's Office and we had seven guys show up in three days. One of whom was a Ivy League educated lawyer who ran

a multi-million dollar investment fund, had a child of his own and was married to the Dean of

a local law school there, and he had come to this house after sexually charged conversation with someone he thought was the father of a 13- and six-year-old boy, both of whom he said in the chads, he wanted to exploit sexually. Now he saw what he walked into and tried to run and they

“brought him back in and I had a chance to talk to him and the only thing he would say to me was”

besides he wanted a lawyer was that he was broken and in San Francisco, which is known for sometimes giving more rights to criminals than to victims, these cases, the ones that are being prosecuted from this sting, four out of the five men have not yet been given bond. So there's an effort in San Francisco on the part of the Sheriff, on the part of the District Attorney Brook Jenkins, to crack down on some of this crime and I can tell you having been out there frequently

over the past two years, we did some stories on the Honduran-Elegal immigrants running the fentanyl rings out there, they have done a good job with this new mayor, this DA, and the sheriff and the police department as well trying to clean up that city and I think this sting was part of that and it's it's proof that there's an effort going on there to take San Francisco back. Chris, can I ask you a question that's a little bit odd because so many people know you look

one of the beautiful things that you've done with this is you've raised such awareness that it was almost funny it's not funny but it's almost funny when the people that you're catching look at you and go oh my god you're the guy you're the guy that catches people like me and then they're face to face with you. It is rare that we can I just want to ask you did before you got to that point did did this show find you or did you find the show like was this your idea

or was there did the network have this idea and say Chris Hansen's our guy he's the guy that can do I was yeah I was doing a lot of investigative enterprise work for Dateline and we had done a story where we went over to Cambodia with an NGO and infiltrated a brothel where there were selling children as young as four or five and six years old and it was a big story and it got me thinking about what goes on in our own country and right about then I had come across an online watchdog group

called Preverter Justice who did these sort of stings where if a guy decided to try to meet a child after an online conversation they would merely post his identity on their website and sometimes law enforcement would try to prosecute those cases. I got the idea and pitched the story to Dateline that if we could use Preverter Justice as the decoys and wire a house you know with hidden

we tried it I pitched it the Dateline approved it and we did the first sting in Beth page long

“island and I was driving out there and we didn't have law enforcement involved we had our”

security guy from NBC Ronnie Knight who was a former NYPD and and I'm wondering you know what's gonna happen to my next pitch if nobody shows up and and sure it often two and a half days we had 17 guy's service in that investigation including in New York City firefighter I mean it's two and a half days now at this point you know I'm just trying to keep my you know my my heart and my chest and and be able to have a conversation with the strangers just walked into to explore the child

and at the end of it these guys just walked out of there you know there was no mechanism in place

for for them to face justice other than the exposure that they would ultimately face on our show

we did it again in Washington DC with a rabbi and the naked guy and the teacher and the doctor

“showed up and and Fairfax County PD and you have to pick up some of the cases but it became abundantly”

clear after that that we had to involve law enforcement that we had to collaborate with law enforcement in order to continue in a socially responsible way and that's what we have done as it's evolved to this very day Chris let me ask you this was there ever a time when the cameras go off and then you're sitting there with that person and you know what's gonna happen I'm John and I know we we've defended some of these creeps you know they're looking at serious time they're now

gonna be registered sex offenders they're gonna be living under bridges I mean their lives are gonna change and yeah that should happen in most of the cases if not all of them my question to you is was there ever a time the cameras go off and you had any compassion for any of these guys

“for any reason well first up Mark the cameras never go off in these investigations they're on the”

whole time we don't leave anything behind we have been painstakingly transparent about our methodology what we do how we do it from the very beginning and continue to do so today in terms of being compassionate yes there are cases where I start to feel like maybe this young guy made a mistake maybe this old guy is lonely but in the case of a recent guy who showed up it was 20 21 years old was in Louisiana came to exploit a female young female he talked about you know

trouble in his life and you know he really didn't think she was under age and well maybe

maybe this young guy deserves a second chance but then you look back at the chats and you see what

he wanted to do with this child and then you review the video of him walking in and going in for the big hug and then after I finished talking to him and he's taken away they go through his backpack and there's a loaded 38 caliber pistol in the bottom of the bag for what's going to happen in this house guys if he wants to make the the porn video with this girl and she doesn't want to cooperate what's he going to do with that gun what's going to happen if she has remorse over what goes on

and threatens to tell what's he going to do with that gun do we then have that's that's the question yeah are you ever nervous I mean yeah what could happen to you yeah we listen yeah we well look we we make this absolutely as safe as it can be you know law enforcement is there the home the areas designed for our protection not just mine but the camera people and anybody else who's there the feel producer and and and law enforcement themselves so look I get that the edgy nature

of it is partially what drives the popularity of this I get it but we make it absolutely as safe as it can possibly be and the risk is minimized to a point where I'm comfortable with taking it Chris are there any bloopers that I may have missed like did you ever have a conductor sting and somebody gets to the threshold of that door and goes nah I'm just going to turn around and go home like is that ever happened have you ever caught anything like that were they kind of got it

no we get people who say is this a Chris Hanson investigation or they'll name the sheriff and we're in Polk County they'll say is this a greedy judge investigation and occasionally we'll get tell the sheriff in Chris Hanson I said hello but no thanks and that's fine look if the guy realizes he's talking to somebody who's under age he initiates the conversation and doesn't know and figures it out and says bye good for him he wins we win society win Chris you figured

yeah you're not going to do something illegal that day what's the common thread amongst these

guy mark but the common thread is they have a fantasy to be with an under age boy or girl often driven by an addiction to or overuse of pornography which has become so prevalent in our society it's easily accessible and they they manifest this fantasy and they keep looking at the porn and they get to a point where nothing is going to satisfy them except a face-to-face meeting and that's when we see them come knocking at our door this happens on every platform that you can imagine

from the run of the mill platforms like instagram to the games like role blocks oftentimes it goes to discord or read it or you name it and it goes on there's dating apps there's all kinds of things that are used and children have access to all of these things whether they're supposed to or not and predators know that in the beginning we had decoys and chat rooms on ale and yeah that was it maybe my space well today there has been an explosion in the number of platforms

upon which adults can approach children and it's a full-time job monitoring those but we we don't go out and sting and have no one show up I mean look I'd like to tell you that we had three things to row and we've cleaned up the problem law enforcement has cleaned up the problem nobody showing up I'd go do a southern cooking show down in Polk County Florida down to Blackburn's barbecue have a time of it but I sadly I don't think that's in my near-term future

these platforms though it's almost like shooting fish in the barrel I've gotten a lot of clients like they they know like on on the discord that it's just a hub for this kind of activity and you would think that we should probably get better at stopping it there right I mean we're

if we're going to try to eradicate the problem which will probably never accomplish let's start

there why do we allow that to happen it's so easy to happen and there's probably so many of the perpetrators that we don't have enough law enforcement we don't have enough Chris Hanson to really

“make a dent in the problem and that's important and we can do better on that end I think”

well I think we can do a lot better and I think a lot of this starts on the part of the of the service providers the platforms the problem with some of these companies whether it's you know meta or whether it's roblox when you limit engagement you limit profits and if you're a multi-billion dollar publicly traded company even though you comply with the reporting laws for the most part of you know when when you see something you reported to the National Center

for Missing Exploded Children it theoretically gets then referred to law enforcement law enforcement can investigate but the question is are the service providers are these platforms doing enough to prevent inappropriate engagement are they're the proper filters in place you know you talk to a company like bark technology which has you know software you can put on your kids

“phones it has phones already made that will alert you should anything like this happen why isn't”

this technology or something like it or a little bit more sophisticated being used and some of these platforms by the platforms to say Chris okay this is it we're going to get more efficient and finding this and why for instance will roblox not allow law enforcement to do an investigation on this platform what do you worried about send a message send a torpedo off the bow as some of these predators and and see if you can't reduce some of the sanctivity that's my opinion on it

that doesn't sound like it's ever going to stop these people are driven unfortunately let me ask y'all I do want to talk about this movie coming out prime time before I do I'm dying to know

first did you ever get it wrong was there ever a guy who for whatever reason they always have

excuses was there ever a time maybe he was frame like the Mona Lisa he didn't go there with that intent did you ever get it wrong never never and he hears why we know through a couple different methods who we're talking to we know that the guy who's having this conversation is the same guy who shows up now again we've had guys who discover the age and they decide this is

“wrong and that's fine that's what they're supposed to do and we've never had a guy who is misidentified”

or came over and wasn't the guy we've never had the pizza guy show up and get arrested when we're supposed to be finding something like that that doesn't happen nice to hear the way this works yeah

good to hear all right so first there's a movie coming out called prime times going robber

Pattinson of twilight fame first you had nothing to do with this movie correct I did not I haven't seen the movie I thought I was gonna maybe see it last week but they wanted me to sign up an NDA non-disclosure agreement and and I understand that film studios don't want people to see this

it and see it well because see it why not if I showed you this NDA either one of you and I was

your client you would absolutely without question not allowing me to sign it for real what what was it like yeah okay all right so I want to see a clip because I haven't all right but you look at it let's we're going to watch the clip you'll tell us on the on the back end of it sat 10 I just want to see the clip and let's talk about it go let's take a look absolutely are you sure your parents are known I'm sure big night planned oh who are you

I'm sure you have a seat right there oh wow I'm Chris Hanson with Dayline NBC and we're doing a story on adults who try to meet teens online you see how this looks right oh man okay I'm very dramatic doesn't it yeah and no in it I mean they're they're using your real name I didn't know that they were using your real name I mean he is playing you dude yeah okay that's that's called name image and likeness yeah yeah yeah are you okay with it the prize you work because I haven't

haven't seen I haven't seen the film now you would think that if you were making a film about somebody

“who's alive about somebody who continues to do what I think is very important work that you”

would arrive in the courtesy of saying hey we're doing this movie would you like to you know be a consultant would you like to you know about it would you we got an email on May 27th the day before

the first trailer came out saying hey we just want to know this trailers coming out we're very

excited about the movie everybody wants you to be involved we'd like to buy some pad space on your podcast and maybe put some of our content on there and that was it so why would they not tell somebody who's in the movie by name and and we asked that question they said well it's merely inspired by real events and Chris Hanson's work well if it's just inspired by it why are using mine real name why are using the names of other real life people when it's a that's largely

“a fictional thing and and the answer I think is because it creates commercial value they know”

that my name will bring people into the theater and I think they've created the perception or at least tried to that I was involved in the film for the very beginning and that that's just not the case oh I don't I again I can't you know good reporter doesn't doesn't make decisions like that or make pronouncements until they've actually seen the product so you know we'll see and if you see the world go together once it comes to the theater are you gonna are you gonna blast it

I mean if it's garbage I mean are you gonna you're gonna a lot I'll tell that people I'm a big

I'm a big proponent of the first amendment you know that I am you know I go out there and do this

work every day but but I what I don't but I don't like is the potential for them to take something that is so important and so good and so compelling on its own to then dramatize it just because they want to make a vampire man movie out of it I mean that's that's just a reality I understand look every time that I I engage in a profile or do something I lose control of it it's up to the writer it's up to the producer it's up to you know whomever is doing the final edit I get that I

the same happens when people come on my show or we we do a story and we do an interview you know I suddenly take editorial control so I understand how it works I just you know I'm just a working reporter and I'm not necessarily familiar in the sophisticated ways of Hollywood so we'll just have to see all it all works out I can't wait to hear you're Chris Hanson and they are using Chris Hanson

“great to make my think I think I think people I think people will be I think people will be”

generally genuinely surprised to find that out because I think that you know they put out a movie they obviously have Robert Pattinson imitating me or you know trying to look like me in a very dark like I said they have a rich way but you know people say oh great Chris he has just being honored with a movie he must have had a had a part in this or busted in a closet and it's got to help be a little bit it's got I mean we're talking about it it's going to be quite about yeah no it's

it's not character you know it could have been somebody worse no I know yeah but who would you want Chris if this were your me who would you have picked to play Chris Hanson several years ago I talked a bunch of people about doing like a Netflix or television series of some short loosely based on my experiences and we actually had a meeting with Dennis Leary's people and I thought that

I like him yes we're gonna people find absolutely so so walkstrue blue dot com watchtrue blue is

“my streaming network episodes have taped down the predator investigative series drop every single”

Thursday I have two podcasts predators I've caught and have a seat with Chris Hanson one goes back over the previous cases one is an interview program with very compelling guests you can get those anywhere you get your podcast or on my YouTube channel have a seat with Chris Hanson perfect thank you so much Chris for so great thank you guys thanks for having me I appreciate it thank you well thank you all right well yes you've heard it from the horses mount that was Chris Hanson this

show was flying by so listen people do not go away we are coming back with my favorite segment of the show we go off the record in in three to one stay tuned welcome back to positively legal and now it's Jonathan's favorite segment and I enjoy it as well we get to rant all week janna waits and she develops this rant and now she gets to get it out

“you ready janna so I'm gonna go first you want to well I don't well I know I think I have a feeling”

what your rant is going to be about you have a feeling you know I have a feeling and I'm gonna say because I kind of got a sneak preview is yeah I've been granting all week about it I know and your rant is so people please stay tuned because the rant is excellent it's also very serious because we've had a very serious topic for the last few weeks with this little sketchy trial my rant

is the opposite of serious so do you want me to go first you want me to go last mind you

knowing knowing what your rant is and what mine is you make the decision janna go ahead all right I'll go ahead and go first you know for just a little bit of levity ladies and gentlemen I present to you janna spill ball thank you so as I mentioned to mark at the beginning of this show I am doing something that I have not done since January 2010 and that is I'm taking a vacation a short one sure but I'm looking forward ish to it or at least I was see we're going

on a weekend beach trip my cousins in me and what should have been hey throw some shit in a bag and get in the car quickly escalated into the Normandy invasion we have assignments advanced provision planning supply chain concerns it's three days for Christ's sake one cousin oh bring the fruit and yogurt another said I've got the beach towels and chairs me wine obviously and the hidden camera detector because apparently my contribution to a relaxing girl's vacation is alcohol

and counterserve balancing equipment so we're making our list we're checking it twice when suddenly one cousin casually announces I'm bringing two bathing suits I froze then it started going

around the room Lisa purchased a new one piece Michelle has won from last year that she never wore

an already packed it her bag my other cousin lost weight on the shot and is very excited to debut her smaller bathing suit with a matching wrap and then everybody looked at me bathing suit I said it with the same fear you'd have if someone told you you were about to be sent into space on a test rocket driven by monkeys Marla goes yes we're staying at the beach remember well yeah I said but I didn't realize you meant beach beach I thought beach house was more of

a geographical description like the house is near the beach like lovely we can oh look at it from the deck with wine nobody said anything about actually putting my body on the beach

“here's the thing guys I haven't worn a bikini in approximately 25 years the last time my”

belly button saw direct sunlight I was wild and crazy and rocked abs like this fast forward to now

in my mind at least where it counts immediately my brain went into emergency response mode

“what are my options here could I wear a hijab you know a summary one”

nah too hot maybe I could find one of those old timey bathing suits that were all the rage before women earned the right to vote you know those long underwearish leod tar things that made women look like men about to join the circus no no horizontal stripes for me so a googled Victorian bathing suits for fun and frankly those women were on to something sleeves pants socks these little numbers

were actual suits they got wet they basically went first swim dressed for jury duty

in desperation I did what any woman in my shoes would have done during a sleepless 2 a.m. panic I went on the amazon and I found it the it is what I'm calling the granny 3000 the bottoms

“come up so high they can double as a two top onesie the top smothers my boobs in so much material”

and padding it can double as a plush dog bed sexy absolutely not but I've decided sexy's no longer the mission the mission is to get from the beach chair to the ocean without anyone yelling ma'am ma'am don't get water in those spanks you'll be pulled out to see so the other girls will be walking onto that beach showing off their new bathing suits I'll be arriving with wine a hidden camera detector and enough like retiree poster of buick and you know what that hidden

camera detector better work because if there is any footage of me in this bathing suit that camera is gonna be sleeping with the fishes oh my oh boy I'm using that sweet belly button when you go to Maryland all right it may or may not happen it may or may not happen I'm voting against the hijab I yeah me too that a good option all right now I got to get all serious after

that yeah you do maybe I should have gone first we would have ended with a lighter thing I

the Lindsey Clancy murder case three children ages five three and seven months were strangled by their mother a mother who's supposed to love and protect them when I first heard those facts I knew nothing about the case I just heard those facts I said that woman should rotting hell were really having a trial and then I looked at the case a little closer and I learned a lot more about I said what wait a second okay she didn't have an affair so she wanted to you know like the

Susan Smith or some of these other killers there's no where's the motive what why would she do this and then I learned that defense was arguing insanity she wasn't capable of knowing right from wrong and adjusting her conduct you suffer from mental illness and disease and I looked into the facts and I said oh my goodness this may fit but I kept an open mind as I watched this trial and yes I provided legal analysis but I kept an open mind and had no side that I was more partial

to and I listened and I listened to that opening statement at the prosecutors gave I went oh my goodness my goodness she must be guilty then the defense got up there and he told me and I waited a second what a history she did all that she was begging for help she was on all these drugs and she had all these issues my goodness so I didn't know what to believe and I carefully listened to every witness waiting and candidly hoping for that one fact that would make me think aha they

got you you knew right from wrong game over that never came out it didn't happen

in fact I'm still watching this trial and I've heard competing experts and yeah partial to

“some I think some have more experience with postpartum psychosis than others but let's just”

look at it in the light most favorable to the state for just one moment you got witnesses on one side you got witnesses on the other experts on some experts on the other and let's just say they all seem credible and believable which is probably what jurors may think if that's the case then there's

the law in Massachusetts maybe not in some other states but in Massachusetts requires

the commonwealth the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt criminal responsibility once that defense has been alleged and at best we've got probably maybe did she hear voice did she hear that voice that persistent male voice maybe she did maybe she didn't was she responsible legally some experts say yes some say no so if the defense argues in closing that the law requires an knock guilty by reason of insanity verdict then game set match that's exactly what they should

be doing if you're hearing this after the verdict then this rants entitled the jurors got it right if they found or knock guilty by reason of insanity if they didn't well I'd say this isn't title the jurors got it wrong or if they're hung which I would expect because there's so much anger so much anger for what she did and I get that that maybe they just couldn't put that to the side

but ultimately this is a legal argument that I'm making those three kids deserved better but you do

not punish someone in our society who has a mental illness and is not responsible for their conduct

“and I believe that the evidence is equally consistent with that as it is with guilt and as such”

the only verdict that speaks to truth is not guilty by reason of insanity Mark Johnna that well and I'm I'm not joking that was one of the most eloquent yes off the records I've ever heard you know we don't have a plan no no and it and it was very good and I hear you and I can see that you're going to have a lot of people who do agree with you

if we could make a little side little between us I I do think that it's going to be a hung jury

I think that that's the front running thought process like you can't ask jurors to you know just all agree on the death penalty sometimes because they just have different feelings it's personal there's it's deeply held beliefs same with this I don't know what you're dealing with but I find it hard to believe all 12 are going to find that she's guilty and there was nothing to this defense

“that I have a hard time so I think on jury or not guilty I think that if he hammers it and”

closing and he does a great closing like I expect they should find her not guilty by reason of insanity but okay right and by the time our show drops they might be right smack in the middle of closing arguments so we're going to have to wait and see it's too bad you're not doing the closing argument because that I would love to truly truly he's he thank you and he's a good lawyer I all defer to him I think he could take it home for sure we could have done a two-hour show today but we just don't

have time for that and by the time I say you next week mark may be I'll have a little bit of a tan and maybe it'll be on my belly button maybe it won't right cannot wait listen next episode we're going to get caught up with janna and hear about her experience having not taken a vacation in decades okay yes anyway janna great falls on thank I'm so grateful for you it really is a privilege I say it but I truly mean it I love doing the show with you I love hearing your thoughts on

things and I'm super grateful thank you thank you it's the favorite part of my week I am grateful for you too I am grateful for the granny 3000 I'm grateful that I get to go on a tiny little vacation with my family and I can't wait and back to report to you next week hash tag wax all right anyway anyway thank you for joining us who's closing this show me yeah thank Chris Hanson I've already thank you I thank you the producers who are great here again Chris Hanson thank you so much for

being with us and we look forward to seeing you next week and we read all of your comments we do please leave us word how we can improve the show what you like what you didn't like what janna should

“wear when she goes on vacation let us know the important issues and report to seeing you next week”

have a wonderful week I hope you choose to have a wonderful week take care bye