DNA Evidence Revealed in Tyler Robinson Hearing and Ohio “House of Horrors” Twisted Child Abuse Case, with Lauren Conlin and Angenette Levy

aka the Florida lawman and current managing partner of Dave Aaronberg law.

I'm joined today by my guest co-host Lauren Conlin, LA Magazine and contributor independent journalist extraordinaire. Hello Lauren. >> Thank you so much for that introduction. I love being here with you. It's so fun. >> You know, Lauren, you've been a great guest in the past and now you're my guest co-host and we're going to dive right into the latest on Tyler Robinson's preliminary hearing. It's happening this week in Utah. Evidence that has been presented so far is truly

enlightening despite what some folks on the internet would say who apparently there are some people on the internet who believe that no matter how much evidence that you can provide,

you can provide confessions and video, still not enough. Good thing they're not on the jury.

>> I mean, look, I can see places where reasonable doubt could exist, sure, but I do think largely the evidence is there. I mean, namely, I would say the submission of Tyler Robinson

“himself or the admission of guilt by him and saying, yes, I did this. I think a lot of people are”

very wound up over Lance Twig's DNA being on the screwdriver on the towel that was wrapped around the rifle. I mean, look, they live together. >> They live together. >> Yeah, they live together. So there's that. There's there's plenty of evidence. I guess, I mean thus far. I will just say that. >> Well, according to the FBI, you have Tyler Robinson's DNA is found on the towel and Tyler

Robinson's DNA is found on the screwdriver left on the rooftop, but yes, maybe there's some DNA

from Lance Twig's who live with Tyler Robinson may come on. I mean, like, you see some common sense. I mean, the videos don't show Lance Twig's walking on campus. They don't show him with a limp where the gun would be on his leg. You don't have a confession from Lance Twig's. You have three separate confessions from Tyler Robinson. My dear, mind you, three separate confessions. One to Twigs and you had the other one to the scoop of gamers that he likes to do. And then you

had the other one, which we can get into. There were three separate one that was before the shooting. One that was after the shooting and then one to the gamers. So, I mean, come on. But I mean, I do think it's interesting and just, you know, forgive me. I just want to kind of play the other side for a minute. But what we haven't really seen is someone on the stand actually sit there and say, yes, point out, I saw that man, Tyler Robinson on the roof. I saw him pull the trigger of the

rifle and I saw him jump. Everything has kind of been, you know, I guess spotted on video on surveillance and then kind of matched up accordingly, if you will. You know, through obviously his, his ID identification

“and just, you know, his, his movement. So, I think the one thing that could be lacking and not that”

it's a big deal because they have so much other evidence. And, you know, if you don't agree, I'd love to hear that, you know, what your thoughts are. But nobody has sat there and said, yes, I saw him with my own eyes. Even, whole, who had to point him out the other day and court. And, you know, the defense is objecting to that, which was kind of crazy in my opinion. But do what you got to do. Even hand pointing him out was kind of like, yeah, I'm pointing him out,

based on his ID, based on him admitting this, not because I actually saw it happen. Well, in addition, I think it's worth more than I would in this testimony. You know, I wouldn't this testimony can be the most unreliable of testimony because people lie, but video does not. People have their perceptions filtered through various experiences in their lives or maybe they're bad eyes. Maybe they just have bad eyes. But when it comes to video DNA,

are out of the fact that when it comes to who was it on the videos, Tyler Robinson admitted to his father that he was the person in the surveillance photos. That's according to the police report. I agree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you. There are a law enforcement sources,

“there are law enforcement, right? So, that's why then he expressed he was going to commit suicide.”

And then his father's parents commenced him to surrender. So, I mean, they got the goods, let me come on. But you don't think that matters, then. And also, I haven't really seen the defense kind of put that out there either to say, well, now, and it's preliminary hearings, of course, but I haven't heard the defense. I will not one of you kind of saw with your own eyes, like no one seems to have seen anything, or in terms of spotting him in the act and confirming

They have this, what you're saying? Well, not in this hearing because this is the problem

“caused hearing. You don't need to approve a case beyond a reasonable doubt. But no one saw OJ Simpson”

murder in a coal Simpson and Ronald Goldman, except for Nicole Simpson's dog, but no human being saw them. And we know that OJ did it. And if you're going to debate me on that, we're going to have to end this program right now. But OJ-- No. But OJ didn't do it in a, you know, on a college campus with thousands of people. I don't know how many people were there that had hundreds of thousands. That's, that's my only argument here. Now that I have an argument, but you like make me want to

argue with you. I don't know why. I'm on your side to agree with you. I can't help it. It's, it's good to be, but actually that's, I guess that's who we are. We're both naturally. Maybe I may be

I'm the one who's argumentative, Lauren. You're always such a nice person. And by the way, I met

Lauren a person at CrimeCon and she really is all that. So I do want to show a video, though. So you had some evidence that Robinson interacted with a representative from turning point U of a say before the shooting. And that was testified to by Agent Hall. I want to play that and then get your thoughts on the other side, Lauren. Let's play sought to. Do you believe you recognize

“you that person is? Yes. Who is that? Believe that's Tyler Robinson. Where is he go from there?”

He adds out of the park and garage on foot into the campus. And that's where it goes to the quad area of the campus. That time he makes contact with some representatives from TPUSA. Like quad area. Sorry, the the amphitheater is what I've previously referred it to. So he goes about in campus, visits the amphitheater area, the courtyard or quad, correct. And then what do we see here now? He returns on foot back to the same vehicle. And what time is he returning

back to the vehicle? It's about 9.25 a.m. That is important because it shows that why was he talking to the turning point reps? It's not like he agrees with them. He he killed Charlie because of his politics. And then we find out that he returned to campus late night, just like Brown and Coburger returned to the scene of the crime. As I think with these criminals, they can't help but go to the scene of the crime. By the way, if you've been following the

Adelson case, Danny Markell, you know, that's a big case that Adetal has to have been consumed with for years because I knew Danny Markell. One of the piece of evidence against Wendy the ex-wife is that she all of a sudden showed up at the scene of the crime right after Danny was murdered. So here we have Tyler Robinson who returned to campus late night, and it are acted with a cop on campus who founded suspicious. So I'll only play this clip too

“learn and then we'll get to you. Okay, stop the rate, please. Now what do we see?”

That vehicle's now pulling away and heading east on a hundred-sealth. And what do you believe that that vehicle was Mr. Robinson's vehicle? When that vehicle was stopped, did actually make contact with an officer who was doing security detail? And do you know who that officer is? Officer Goforth. Okay, and do you know what department he works for? Spanish for please. And did you have a conversation with Mr. Goforth regarding

this interaction at that intersection? I did, yes. And what time was that interaction? I'm sorry, do I ask you that? I was approximately 0.1230 a.m. On the 11th. On September 11th, 2025. So you talked to Officer Goforth about that contact on the corner on that, or the very, I guess, during the early morning hours of the 11th. Correct. And what did Officer Goforth tell you about that interaction? It was an interaction that, I guess, I guess cop intuition,

but there was something about the interaction that made him make a note of the license plate of the vehicle. And then subsequently, when information was available that that vehicle or a vehicle matching the description of that was involved in the incident, he ran the information he had obtained from the start and was able to identify that it was registered to Mr. Robinson. And he had, in fact, had contact with Mr. Robinson on the morning of September 11th, 2025.

Lauren, what do you think? All the balls are right there, but no, you're, you're right. I mean,

it has the echo, I guess, of Scott Peterson. I always use this when he drove back and forth to the

Marina, although our friend Garagos will tell you that he's innocent, but we know that's BS. Respectfully BS, but yeah, this is what a legit killers do. They go back and they, they look at their work. They inspect the crime scene. They, they want to see if they are going to get caught, if they are close to

And yeah, I, I do think it's ballsy that he's, he's talking to cops. That just tells me,

“he's arrogant as hell. He thinks that he can do anything. I mean, the law doesn't apply to this”

kid. I want to tell you about veracity. It's founder, Ali Egan is a CEO and certified hormonal health coach who learned about metabolic health the hard way. For years, she struggled with undiagnosed Hashimoto's. That's an autoimmune disease that attacks the thyroid, the body's primary metabolic engine. She created veracity to ensure everyone has access to the holistic solutions and optimal health they deserve. The name veracity means accuracy and truth,

and it's a company built on clinical integrity. They say the breakout product, Metabolism,

Ignite, is an all natural way to help you slim down boost your energy and sharpen your focus

by tackling the root cause of so many health struggles, your metabolism. They say it's drug free, it's clinically proven, and that it's doctor formulated to support your body's unique needs. Consider veracity and head to veracity health.co and use code mk to get up to 65% off your order. Once again, that's v-e-r-a-c-i-t-y-health.co for up to 65% off and make sure you use our promo code m-k so they know we sent you. I don't want to miss gender anyone because the defense is calling

Lance Twigs Luna Twigs. I don't know if Lance Twigs is transition, so I'll use Twigs just so I don't get it wrong, but apparently he messes Twigs that they would be together in

old age, which made it clear he thought he can get away with this, and he said he planned this for

a week. If you can deny it, but Tyler Robinson would like to have a word with you if you deny that he was wondering who did it. I mean, if you think he really is being framed, how to explain all of his messes about how he planned it, I guess you're thinking those are forged, and let's see, you know, because generally if he was framed for it, he'll probably take the stand as defense. Right, Lauren? I'm sure he'll take the stand. Zero point zero percent of chance he does.

“Zero point zero. I'm wicked on him taking the stand, but again, from the start, when I believe”

it was the Utah State Attorney Jeff Gray at the initial press conference, when he read those text messages, and then I got a hold of them. I'm telling you Dave, I don't know the way these kids talk to each other. I don't know the linguistics they used, but I was very put off by them. I'm kind of like, how dumb are you, or did you want to get caught? It just felt like a movie. Check under the keyboard, my love. You didn't do it. Did you? Yes, it was I. It just felt so

scripted, and I'm sorry. I'm not sitting here saying he's innocent. I don't think he's innocent, but you can't tell me that that wasn't a little weird, just a little bit. A little weird, not to the smarts people's choices, but you're dealing with furries here. So, I mean, that could be kind of weird too, right? I mean, I don't want to get in trouble here, but you're dealing with some furries, and so yes, so they can do other things that may be weird.

Here's a guy who murdered Charlie Kirk thinking that he could play God. So will he be weird in the kind of conversation? Yes, he's not a normal guy. Now they're doing his career. We insane, but also you're a lawyer, and I'm not. So he also thinks that this is a bigger moment than him. Like, you know, he, the gravity about me thinks is his big figure in time. He's playing God. So he's writing these, these things,

not just like you and I would write it, but you know, with these linguistic flourishes, but he's an idiot. He's a loser, and he's going to be found guilty, but let's also go back to Agent Hull,

“who remarked on the footage of seeing someone fleeing and jumping from the roof. Who could it be?”

Let's play Sot 4. You believe this to be Mr. Robinson? I'm sorry. You believe this to be Mr. Robinson? I do, yes. And how long is he out there on the edge of the building? Just until the reported shot was fired at 12, 23 and 28, individual then stands up, and then moves across the building to the north. Is that what we're seeing happening right now? It is, yes, they move behind the, the atrium area on the rooftop with the northeast corner where

the white triangle is. I did watch this the other day during, during the hearing, and look, I, I don't have a good view of his face as no one does, but with that being said, we did get a, we had a good idea of his steps where he went before, what he was doing, and what he did after. So by all accounts, yes, that appears to be Tyler Robinson,

the rifle that quickly and shoving it in your, your pant leg or something or your pocket,

and then jumping, and I know there was a bit of a limp, I guess, but I guess not sustaining major injuries and being able to do something like that. Yeah, no, hey, I don't know exactly how he put the gun in his pants, and then was walking around, and he was going steps very gingerly,

“remember that when Plyxical Burris, remember him the y-racier for the New York Giants,”

apparently did that at a strip club in New York, and then the gun went off because he had it, the gun in his sweatpants, and shot himself really badly in the leg, and then he got sent us a jail for a good measure for an illegal gun in New York. So, and that really damages his football career.

So, why do people do it? They do it. They're not thinking straight, and can they do it? Yeah,

you saw him struggling up the steps, but I don't want to be just all prosecution here because even though I sort of, I do want to bring up the defense here. The defense did have some cross-examination, and they were able to make some points, right? They noted that there was no suspected shooter before Robinson turned himself in, even though they did arrest, remember they did charge that old guy at the beginning, a quickly thought five, this is the cross-examination of Agent Hall.

And isn't it fair to say that, as of the moment, the Tyler Robinson voluntarily surrendered to authorities in Washington County? As of that moment, you all did not know who the shooter was. Is that right? We had identified a person of interest, but we did not specifically know who the shooter was at that time. Okay. And you became aware that Mr. Robinson was voluntarily surrendering how, how did you become

“aware of that? That information came originally, I believe, from the Washington County Sheriff”

to the administration, the control center at the University on the evening of the investigation,

or the second evening of the investigation.

And there also was a defense witness named Amanda Baker who testified on Twigs' DNA that was present on the towel, something that you and I discussed earlier, Lauren. Let's play Sot 9, Amanda Baker, on the stand. And based either on your conversations with the agents or other people, why did you think that Twigs was someone who's DNA, you would inspect in those two samples? So from what I recall in speaking with the investigators, Mr. Twigs was a roommate of Mr. Robinson,

and it was thought that those items came from potentially Mr. Robinson's home. And I don't recall exactly if it was a situation where particular towel was known to have been in

“that house, I don't remember that exactly, but in talking to the investigators based on their”

investigation, it was important to assume potentially Mr. Twigs was present. All right, did any investigator ever tell you that the towel did not come from Mr. Robinson's home, but was found in a bush out of the university? I was aware of that, yes. So you knew that that towel was not found in a place where you would inspect Mr. Twigs' DNA to be present?

That is correct. It was found outside of a home, but again, based on speaking with the investigators, they had information to suspect that that towel came from Mr. Robinson's home. Yeah. I mean, that's a hard to believe, Lord. Okay. They came from Robinson's home, so of course, this roommate's DNA was found on. Right. And that's where I think that's where I stand, you know, they live together. So it's not abnormal, but I do think that was kind of

the biggest quote bombshell of the day, if you will. And I just want to go back really quickly to what I said about the rifle. You know, I'm thinking back about it and what we know about Tyler Robinson. And, you know, he was an avid hunter. He did have a lot of experience in shooting guns like this or AR15s like this. So I guess it's not too out of the ordinary that he would be able to take it apart and put it together that quickly, or I guess just take it apart and shove it in his pant leg,

right? Maybe. Yeah. I mean, he was an experienced enough shooter that he was able to kill Charlie Kirk being far away from a rooftop knowing how to use a scope. And, and, but he had experience with this grandfather's gun. And, yeah. By the way, if you wonder who that lawyer was, that's not the lawyer we've been seeing. So far, that's Michael Burt. He's amongst the high profile lawyers on Tyler Robinson's team. He represented Lyon, Menenda's in the past. That's one of the Menenda's

talking about this case and we don't have a lot of time left, but I just want to touch upon another case that you're familiar with Casper O'Brien. I talked about this case in my previous closing argument where you had these parents who allowed their son who was a child to get to be what 255 pounds and do I have that correct? Yeah. And then I just a tragedy and they've been charged a secondary murder and torture. What's your take on that? Well, I mean, I have a seven-year-old

and I just can't imagine this poor child was bedridden. He was nonverbal autistic. And as you mentioned at the time of his death, he, you know, he had stopped breathing. His heart just swelled up and he weighed

250 pounds. He ended up dying at the hospital. His parents, I mean, I, second degree murder. That's

that's kind in my opinion because these parents had means. The father, Mr. O'Brien had a good job and IT. He had good insurance. Both of the parents went to the doctor regularly. They had diabetes. And the mother, she's changed her story so many times. You know, I didn't go to the doctor because at one point, I was molested by a doctor or I didn't take him to once I was molested by him. Maybe, maybe she was molested by a doctor, but she still went herself. So, you know, the fact that

this, this child had not seen a doctor since 2024. And by the way, Dave, in 2024, when he went to see a pediatrician, he weighed over a hundred pounds. He would have been what? Five years old? I mean,

why didn't that doctor, you know, report that to CPS after never seeing him again? I mean,

“it's, it's mind blowing. The, the poor kid didn't take a shower. I think in six months,”

investigator said when they, they, they inspected his body and just, you know, trigger warning. They, they reportedly opened up the bag and it wasn't the smell of a corpse. It was the smell of infection and, and just rotting flesh and, you know, his fingernails were out to hear with dirt and his, his, like, he was dreadful. I mean, my only question is, um, I guess the torture element. That charge, I don't know how you, is that going to be the food? Like, how, how do you prove a torture charge,

I guess, with, with this case in particular? I think that, uh, he was diagnosed with certain diseases,

and they just let it fester and they never had a specialist appointment and he wasn't enrolled in

school. He was nonverbal. He's bedridden, covered in sores and rashes, and they allowed the veterinarian to treat the dog, but not a doctor to treat their children. So just awful. I do agree, though,

“torture really tougher to prove them murder. I think murder actually, they, they got him on this,”

but, you know, then again, um, we don't know all the evidence, but what has come out has been really horrifying. I think you think they have him on, they have the parents on second degree, second degree murder. You think, right? Yes, I do. I do. I think the first remurter, there's a reason why they didn't charge it. It's top where I don't think their intent was to kill him. I think that, but, but it was just depraved conduct here, and that we'll see,

juries are going to hate these parents. Lauren, I, I appreciate the conversation about it, and because I talk so much on Tyler Robinson, we're going to have to go to break. So, we're going to go next after the break. We'll have long crime correspondent and true crime journalist Antonette Levy, who also was at crime con with us. She's going to join the show to discuss a tragedy case of 16 children who rescued from a house of horrors and rural Ohio. Stay tuned. The best summer pieces

are the ones you end up wearing on repeat, comfortable versatile and right for almost every occasion.

“That's why I love quince. They make elevated essentials using premium materials like European”

linen, organic cotton and washable silk without the traditional retail markup. They're 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops are lightweight, easy to style, and started just $32. Their denim feels so soft and their organic cotton sweaters are perfect when the temperature drops at night. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands, because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman. And it's not just a peril. They also have

home essentials from bedding and bath to kitchen essentials in furniture. Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quince.com/mktc for free shipping on your orders and 365 day returns. It's also now available in Canada. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/mktc for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/mktc. Welcome back to the Mk True Crime Show. Joining you now is True Crime Journalist

to be back with you. Yes, good to be back with you. You know, I've been on your show a bunch.

“You do a great job. And now the tables have turned. And now you've been covering”

this site or house of horrors. This case is I just booked my mind really because I've ever some questions I have about. I'm going to ask you here at the expert now. I want you to walk us through how this case came to light and then explain how this couple, but 35 and 33 years old, had 16 kids in their care when they lost two kids at birth who are enjoying. How is it possible that they could have then 18 kids in such a short period of time? I don't get it. Well, Dave,

it does sound like a lot because it is a lot. And it appears that Elizabeth was pregnant every year from 2015 or just about every year from 2015 up until the present day. We have all of the birth dates for these children. And it appears that she was just getting pregnant kind of

“one after the other for your viewers who may not know this. After you have a baby,”

you're particularly fertile. And I don't know if they just weren't educated about birth control.

I don't know if they did this on purpose. But Elizabeth had her first baby. She and Gary were married

in March of 2008. She had a baby a few months after that. And then she continued to have more children. And the last four pregnancies were twins. So she had one set of twins born on November 20, 2022. 2022 that were born can join to baby girls. And they shared the same vital organs. They were attached together. And they died that same day. And then it appears she got pregnant shortly thereafter and had two more sets of twins. So it's confounding because I don't know why,

unless you were doing this on purpose, why this would continue to happen.

Because being pregnant is very hard on a woman's body. It can be very hard on a woman's body.

“So I think we have a lot of questions that still need to be answered. I did some poking around Dave”

and apparently Elizabeth is pregnant right now. Yeah, and they found 16 kids who were in the home who were being badly mistreated and they busted them all for child abuse, at least the whole family got charged. And this was after they had busted the father for some misdemeanor. So that just gave them the ability to go in the home and they discovered this house of horrors. And well, they had a search warrant. I want to be

really clear about this because there's been, I think, a lot of confusion about this because there was a search warrant that the Vitten County Sheriff's Department and the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation obtained of his court authorized search warrant related to a totally separate investigation. It had nothing to do with the public indecency allegations from May of the year, although those charges were filed on the same date that the search warrant was executed at

the home. They go into execute the search warrant on an investigation related to, we don't know what yet because everything is sealed related to that parallel investigation, they go into execute this warrant and they find 16 kids in this room. And we're told that these kids, you know, that there was feces in the room, there were flies on all over the kids. Some of the kids were an incredibly bad shape, even flown to a level one trauma center, at least one of those children

remains hospitalized as far as I know. And I was told these kids are, they were kind of like the kids from the old commercials when we were younger that you would see when, you know, they'd want you to donate money to help starving children in Africa. That the kids almost had that type of look about them, kind of like, you know, with the sad eyes and stuff like that. And we don't know if they were being, you know, physically hurt and abused. But the confounding thing about this

is that we were told, they've not been to school, there's no education records for these kids, but they have social media. They're on social media with phones. And so that's a really confusing part of this. Like, how do these people not have money to take care of their kids, yet some of the older children have phones, and they're on various social media apps posting photographs and things of that nature. So it's very strange. How many homeless people have you seen with cell phones?

children with cell phones, but yes, homeless people can get phones. So it begs the question,

are they receiving some type of government assistance? And what was, if they are receiving that assistance, I'm kind of digging into this still, what kind of oversight was there over the family,

“and over the assistance they were receiving and over the children?”

Yeah, 16 kids. And they're treated so poorly that their charge was secondary felonies. These are felony child endangerment. I call the child abuse. It's actually child endangerment. That's one count for each child discovered inside the home. You may wonder why there's not a torture charge like we saw with the O'Brien case that we had just mentioned, but I do think torture, whether it's O'Brien's case or this case would be tough to prove. I think it's much easier to prove

the very serious felony of child endangerment. And in the O'Brien case, I think you got murder there. Thankfully, no one died here, but yeah, this case is just gearing up. You have all four defense pleading not guilty. They're all held on $300,000 on bond. So they're not going anywhere.

“And you're dealing with kids from 18 months to 18 years old. And they were taken into state custody.”

As far as the prosecutor, it was Dinton County. He wanted to assure the community that everything in the community is okay. The community is safe. This is an outlier. Let's play

thought 11. The four defendants were arranged on 16 counts of second degree felony on a child

endangering. They were assessed a $300,000 cash or surety bond per defendant. They were ordered to have no contact with each other as code defendants. They were ordered to have no contact with the victims. We are asking for temporary custody to job and family services. The children are safe. They are in. They have been placed. We have some other issues we're still dealing with for their safety, but they are currently in a good situation and are being protected. This is an intra family situation.

This is not human trafficking. There is nothing to put our other children at risk. This is clearly involved a multi-generational family in a very limited situation. We know the early reports came out that some of this might be going on, but we want to assure the public that their children and Vitton County are safe. Antonette, we see the politicians getting out there. This is a attorney. We also saw the attorney

general getting out there and saying if this had gone on a little longer, we could be dealing with a death. There could be murder charges. In fact, let's go back to you, Antonette. I was out at the scene with our agents and the detectives yesterday. So I saw the location. I saw the condition that it was in. Some of the evidence, well yesterday when I saw the location, the kids were already gone. They were being treated at the hospital.

The evidence I got to see today was some evidence where the initial discovery of the children was captured or documented. Again, I've done these types of cases for a long time. I've been in incredibly poverty-stricken areas in the inner city. I've been in poverty-stricken

areas in rural Ohio, and I've never seen anything like I saw today with respect to those kids.

It really looked third world. It's the type of thing that we're not used to seeing here.

“Because I'm telling you, and what I've seen up to this point, I think if they would have waited”

another 24 hours, there was a very high probability that we'd be dealing with a death or multiple deaths of these children. Well, Antonette, we see the elected officials coming out saying the right things, but how did it slip through the cracks for so long? Well, it's a very good question, Dave, and I was actually talking to someone who is close to part of this family. It's my understanding, and I've gotten this now from two different sources, that there were some children's services

people in another county where they had once lived, who did visit them and were concerned. And then the family, I am told, got up and moved to avoid detection by children's services because they didn't want the children taken away. They had been in this particular home, we are told for four years, but it sounds like none of the neighbors from what we're told knew that there were children in this home, let alone 16 children. This wasn't like the kids

children's service as agency in one rural Ohio county that had had concerns and visited these people

“at one point in time, but how many years ago that was is still unclear because they've been in”

that particular home for four years. So it really begs the question, Dave, and I've put out some questions to some government agencies about this and the investigation is still ongoing. Elizabeth Citerus was having these babies in hospitals. So did she have, did she have government health care, what would be called Medicaid in the state of Ohio, was she receiving those benefits, was she on Medicaid, that would allow her to go into a hospital

and have babies without receiving a hospital bill, she wouldn't be build for that. It's a so she allowed

to program. But how she even allowed to get married to Gary Jr. She got married when she was 15 years old. She had just pleaded eighth grade and then dropped out. How was that allowed? Is that allowed in Ohio? That a 15-year-old girl is a lot of good news. It's not, and they didn't, they did, it is not, and they didn't get married in Ohio. That's the thing. We tracked down the records from Mason County, West Virginia, and they were married there on March 31, 2008. And in West

Virginia, back in that time, you were apparently able to be a 15-year-old and be married. In the

state of Ohio, you can get married, I think, when you're 17, I was reporting on this the other day,

“actually. When you're 17, but you have to jump through a bunch of hoops. I mean, you not only”

have to have parental consent, but you have to go to a court and get it signed off on. I mean, there are quite a few hoops that you have to jump through in order to be married at a younger than 18 in the state of Ohio. So it appears that's why they went to Virginia at West Virginia, rather, in 2008 because it was not that long of a drive from where they were living. They were living in one county over, and they went over to West Virginia and got married. She was at 15 and he was 18.

Well, Elizabeth is facing the same charges as everyone else, and her lawyer says that she's a victim here. She's not the evil one that she married into an evil family. Let's hear her lawyer Sott 13. At one point, the the term pure evil was used to describe Elizabeth and the home, and at another point, there was a comment, the livestock had been treated better. I met a woman who was timid and who was exhausted. It looked like she had been crying quite a bit. She looked

distraught and she was willing to talk to me, able to talk to me, and we sat down for about an hour and a half to go through the basics of this case. She does not know how the home, the conditions, the investigation is being described. And I chose not to share all of those details with her at this point because she does seem so fragile. The person that I met with though is not someone who comes across as purey. That's just evil requires malice and the person that I saw there,

Elizabeth, she doesn't have that in her eyes. You see his plaque behind him, best lawyers, well positioned. He makes a good argument there. I want to correct something. I said that it was he who called the family that other than Elizabeth evil. It's actually, that's according to family members of Elizabeth who said that she was indoctrinated by the cider. Yes, and that's where I said it on Facebook. That's right. That's right. So the lawyer is doing right by his client,

by saying she's not the evil one in this story. Of course, the implication is the others who are evil because these are evil acts what happened. And Elizabeth does have the ability, I think, to flip on the others and probably get the lightest sense of she cooperates. I think that that

“would be next. If I were her lawyer, that's what I would do. But then again, I'd come from a”

prosecutorial angle and just want justice to be done here. And glad the kids no matter what, are free from their chains here. Well, you know, Tommy Stolley there, you just showed that it's interesting because he said yesterday after the court proceeding that was supposed to happen and that didn't happen, he and Dorian Baum, who represents Gary Sr., came out and gave a brief kind of impromptu press conference. And Tommy Stolley said that his office and the prosecutor's

if she's a victim. He had been quoted as saying and he said yesterday, you know, I said that,

you know, she does not consider herself a victim. But they're still looking into that because it raises the question, you know, why is a woman continually getting pregnant when you can't actually provide for these children and you're keeping them from what we've been told hidden away. Dorian Baum, the lawyer for Gary Sr., too, the grandfather here, also told me that he doesn't in the discovery he's been provided. He hasn't seen the conditions that were described in the

press conference. He hasn't seen what has been referred to. So I don't know if he just hasn't received

additional discovery yet, but what was described to us was just a filthy room, full of feces,

kids covered with flies, things of that nature. So I think we'll get more information as the

“investigation unfolds. But they're saying, you know, it's not a crime to be dirty. That's what”

they told me. What Dorian Baum told me. It's not a crime to have a dirty house or to have things on kept. But I mean, it is a crime if children are kept in conditions that are so filthy that they're either sick, they're not well cared for. I mean, you can speak to this better than I can, Dave, you're the prosecutor here, the former prosecutor. But it is a crime if these children,

you know, are being kept inside and not allowed to go outside and one of them had to be

intubated. Yeah, they're showing video or at least pictures. But you put some of those pictures back up. I mean, look at this. They were stuck in a 12 by 12 box, essentially. 16 kids. Look at this. Okay, yes, there's no crime in having your dirty home or else every college dorm would be

“shut down and the students would be putting handcuffs. But look at this. I mean, that's their home.”

They didn't go to school. They apparently intentionally evaded the authorities when the authorities were starting to catch onto them. And so this does look like child and dangerment and they are fortunate that no one died because then they could be facing the same charges as the O'Brien's. So, Antonette, I want to just say thank you. You know, the mom here apparently won last day before we go. The mom is she currently pregnant again.

Yes, we've uncovered that she is indeed. I've been told she is pregnant again. I started hearing some things about that. They were initially, if you recall, charged with 17 counts of child and dangering, but they were only 16 children in the home. And I'm trying to verify about, I'm trying to

“verify as to whether or not those counts that 17th count of child and dangering related to this”

unborn child because all of the sudden it was paired back to 16 counts of child and dangering. But I started asking around, poking around, people were asking me, look at her in the jail jumpsuit or stomachs out. I've been told that yes, indeed Elizabeth is currently pregnant. Yeah, the way we can just show before we conclude the picture of Elizabeth again, I do think that picture that you see. It's like a sort of mug shot maybe. Maybe it's her behind bars.

That does show some real sadness. There's something going on there. I don't want to diminish her criminal culpability here, but it does look like this is someone who got married if 15 was dragged into this family and all she's done for the last 18 years is have one child after the next after the next and she's living amongst all these other side or family members who are all arrested as well. And that is just a very compelling image of her behind bars because I do think that

in that case a picture tells us a thousand words. Yeah, she looks, she looks very sad there, Dave. But in the, when she was in the beginning, the initial appearance, she actually looked a little more you know, put together or she looked like she had maybe showered and things like that. She looked better. But really, I mean, it is a very sad state of affairs, but again, there are so many questions here. We have more questions and answers. I do want to add though that Gary senior, the grandfather,

he was taken to the hospital, rushed to the hospital on July 7th and then taken to another hospital for more serious treatment. He has since been granted a $300,000 personal reconnaissance bond and the state is going to pay for his GPS monitoring when he's released. So

his lawyer is raising competency issues. He doesn't believe that his client really understands what's

going on. He's 73 and he said that when he spoke to his client about all of this, that he didn't

“really even seem to understand the role that everybody was playing in the court process. So I think”

there's still a lot to unpack with regard to this case. 73, I guess people age differently these days and 73 could be a youthful vibrant attorney in a law firm or it could be someone who claims they don't have the mental capacity to stand trial who lives in a 12 by 12 box with their 16 kids. It's just it's crazy story. Anjana, thank you. Tell our audience where they could find you. Thanks for having me Dave. A lot of crimes YouTube channel. I am on their every day.

Crime fixes the podcast. We also have some other podcasts on there as well that cover the big news of the day and we'll continue to cover this. I'm also on x at inch net five and instead at inch and inch net. So people can reach me any number of ways. Thank you, Anjana. And next, it's our closing arguments. Let's have a quick talk about life insurance. Most of us have it, but do you actually know

“what you're paying or exactly what you're getting? The truth is you're likely paying too much”

for too little. Plus, if your coverage is tied to your job and you're unexpectedly late off, you could be left with zero protection overnight. That's a scary thought, but it's incredibly simple to fix. Thanks to select quote, unlike those one size fits all companies, select quotes, licensed agents work for you, not the carriers. In just 15 minutes, they compare policies from top rated providers to find the perfect fit for your health and budget. Best of all, they're

service is completely free. So if you're worried about a medical exam, don't be. They've got partners offering same day coverage up to $2 million. That's without a doctor's visit. Even if you have

“pre-existing conditions like diabetes or high blood pressure, select quote, finds a protection”

you deserve. Life insurance will never be cheaper than it is today. Select quote, they shop. You

save. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50% at select quote. .com/mk. Save more than 50% on term life insurance. At select quote. .com/mk today to get started. That's like quote. .com/mk. Welcome back to the mk true crime show. I'm Dave Aaron Bergman's time for my closing argument. In the late 1990s, a 17 year old girl was sent to a boarding school in Utah. Her parents thought they were sending a rebellious teenager to get help. Instead, she was subjected

to a living nightmare. She was beaten. She was forced to take unknown medications, and she was locked naked in solitary confinement. For decades, the facility counted on the fact that no one would believe a troubled team would they. But that team age grew up and her silence ended. Her name? Paris Hilton. Yes, that Paris Hilton. Last month, Hilton returned to Utah to stand side-by-side with families filing major lawsuits against the facility. Those lawsuits broke the damn. And this week,

the evidence finally won. The state officially revoked the school's license, exposing a

rap sheep of horrific violations from illegal physical restraints to a deliberate failure to see emergency medical care for a student left unconscious from an assault. Shutting the doors is a victory, and the civil courts will make them pay. But administrative closure is still not enough when you deliberately withhold medical care from injured child. That isn't a policy infraction. That's a crime. Local prosecutors can use these exact state findings to perhaps

file some criminal charges. Just stand. True justice means putting handcuffs on the individuals. Who did this? That's the theme for today's show. We've talked about the alliance. We've talked about the side or case. And here, closing argument is about Paris Hilton because when it comes to protecting children, it's more important that government has.

stepped up in a big way. Thanks for being my guest host. And Jeanette Levy, thank you for a fascinating conversation about a horrific case. And thank you, the audience, for the MK True Crime Show. I'm Dave Aaronberg, aka the Florida Lawman. I'll see you next time.