Lindsay Clancy Juror Division, Lil Durk Courtroom Drama, and Inside the “Dating Game Killer” Case

For the last two days to talk to you because it's amazing to me how much of the last two shows we're going to be talking about Lindsey Clancy and now to hear the jurors talk as opposed to what I like to affectionately call the University of X or Twitter graduate, law school graduates talk.

Some vindication wouldn't you say? We were turns out we were right about almost all of it. Mark, if I could, yeah, take that victory lap with you.

“Almost everything we predicted going on back there in fact is kind of sounds like almost exactly what happened based on some of these, some of these interviews with the jurors, right?”

Yeah. In fact, why don't we start with what I think Natasha the producer extraordinaire has got one that I thought was very interesting for one of the jurors. I think it was Natasha have teed up the male juror or the three females which is easier. He explicitly said, you know, I don't know if the prosecution or the defense proved their case. He expressed that, right? Yeah. Take me inside the deliberation room. There was times where, you know, our vote was different than the last day. But I think ultimately once we laid out all the evidence in how we saw that really brought everyone kind of on the same page except for this one juror. There was several times I would ask him to show us what evidence or, you know,

describe a witness testimony that helped to prove what he was saying and he couldn't, which is why we ultimately sent in that now. Otherwise, like there's nothing wrong with somebody having a completely opposite opinion like that's, you know, that would be, I'm jury that that is our justice system, but he wouldn't engage or couldn't find something to support his view. There was times he wouldn't engage like he'd be scrolling on his phone while people are talking to him.

Yeah, things like that. You know, mad. I don't know about you, but it's almost upside down world, right?

“Well, it's totally upside down world, Mark. Yeah. Yeah, not 10 or up to you, but 100%. Yeah, keep going. Sorry. No, good. Do it. Say why. That's why.”

No, it's, this is one of the, it is one of the foundations of the criminal justice system in America, right? And this is the vast majority of time, Mark, when you have an 11 to one hanger, which is what we call it, it's 11 to one for conviction, right?

Yes, overwhelmingly. Now, certainly not always, but I, the vast majority, I think is safe to say.

In my experience, I probably had 200, 11 to one, not a single one of those was 11 to, well, I think that back.

“Maybe one was for NG. Yeah, it's always for guilty. Always, right? And what's interesting to me is that that's a win for the defense.”

I mean, so the prosecution didn't meet their burden, they couldn't convince a group. And one of the funny things about this is the, you know, Kevin writing to how many times has he made those arguments, hoping to get just one juror holding out for him, right? And I guarantee, Mark, every time he's walked out of a corner, if there's been any media, he has praised the integrity of one juror, right? And it's, that's the way the system works. And when it comes to something like reasonable doubt, it really is a subjective thing. And that question from, you know, that reporter that we just heard, he, that, that was a, that was pretty leading when he said, so he wasn't engaging. And the guy goes, well, there were times he wasn't engaging, which means he was, he was engaging, what, what, you know, what is reasonable doubt to one person may not be reasonable doubt to another, and that's, that's the system, right?

And you and I also talked about this, like, with all the tactical praise that we, that we gave to Kevin Reddington in our, like his, I thought his opening was excellent, his cross examinations of the witnesses were incredibly skillful. He also, you know, smoke the jury on the, the court of public opinion, right, his work in the media, he just ran circles around them by the time he got to closing though, I was really disappointed. I thought he kind of dropped the ball a little bit and thought, I, and you and I talked about this, I thought all along, this would be a defense verdict.

But he went after the cops, which I really didn't think he needed to do any, any personal answer with the prosecution who gave a ridiculously short 42 minute closing argument or whatever, was, which I still mark, I can't wrap my head around it.

And I think Natasha, I think we got another shot if we could, if we could play the next shot and Mark and I can, can analyze that a little bit.

He took the exercise band out of the bag, grabbed an empty water bottle and tied the band around the water bottle and pulled it. Did he explain why he did that? No.

“He might have, I'm not, I, I think I was just so shocked that he did that.”

Why? Is that a mimic of how she killed the children? Yeah, I, I, I assume so, yeah. What do you think when he did that? I was shocked, didn't make any sense to me.

We're not in here to play detective or, it's not a game of clue, like this is serious.

I asked him why, why, why, why are you doing that? That's a band that was used to strangle a child. It's disgusting. Yeah, well, I, I can, let me just push back a little bit on that, Mark. That's, he's trying to demonstrate to the other jurors. And I wasn't back there, of course, but how long it takes to strangle somebody. That's the point he was trying to make, and that sort of thing, that, that spirited deliberation after that many days isn't disgusting.

That is a juror who is attempting to deliberate with other jurors right wrong or indifferent. However, we feel about that, what they're describing is the messy process of deliberation. And, and by the way, the victory lap for the viewer that Mark and I were talking about, it's, it's hard victory for being right. That's where we're talking about. We're not, it's not a victory lap on the case. But nobody is not collaborating.

We were, we were pushing back on a lot of the so-called conventional wisdom, which drives, I know Matt and clearly me, crazy when we hear it. Because it's so untethered to our, our collective experience on both sides that you just wonder when, when people, and people I respect, say these things. I just wonder where, what courtrooms have you been in, I don't, I don't even get it.

“And, well, there's, I think there's one more, there's one more tape, not of this guy, but of the three female jurors, because that's it.”

Let's listen to that. I, I want to, I really want your, your thoughts on this Mark, because I have some ideas too. If you could play the next one.

It's something that I will never, not here. If I think about it, it was the most horrific thing.

And when we, we heard it again in, in the, in the, juror room, we were, we were crying again. We were just like, my God, the desperation, the despair and his voice was, again, it's, it's something, I, I, that, will stick with me. And I felt that it was, it was genuine, it was absolutely genuine. There's no doubt about that. His reaction was so, got wrenching. It never got ever allowed Patrick to be part of our deliberations or any of our, any of this experience.

You just said, this is not about Patrick. You know, I, I, I, I, it's so much of this and I'm going to go through the line. I kept saying, and you know, because you and I talked about it in various forms, I kept saying, the only reason that, because I've also said, I can't believe the number of women under 35 who are convinced anywhere I go that, that, that Patrick had some kind of involvement. I said, the only reason that I can think of that has spawned this is because they did not hear, they weren't in the courtroom for the playing of the 911 tape.

All that was released of the 911 tape was the transcript, not playing it. Every person who I talked to was in that courtroom who heard the tape said it was the most, she used gut wrenching. I kept, I kept, I kept describing it as guteral, primal kind of the, and there's no way that anybody who I talked to at least who heard that 911 tape could ever even entertain a thought that this, that this guy had something to do with it.

“It just was impossible, and that I think for the jurists to come out and say that, I just thought, wow, I just once again.”

Yeah, well, they certainly got that part right for sure. And the tech talk stuff, Mark, I still, I'm trying to figure this out in the modern era, maybe it's like 1% of people are really like just unhinged, and then with social media, they can find their, they can find their people, and then pretty soon, there's just thousands of them.

I think it was before even your vacation, when this, when we noticed this phenomenon, because I was surrounded by it, everywhere I would go, I would just, and it would be astonishing.

“And then you went on your tie rate, and you took a lot of heat for it.”

I took a ton of heat, Mark, like, that is, we've waited on controversial cases, you know, and a lot of them, and there's a little bit of pushback, but on this one, oh my god, some of the stuff was, it was just kind of, not only just mean, but crazy mean, you know, and, and look, I stand by everything that that I said on that, it's, in injustice is injustice, you know, and when you have somebody who is being falsely accused, whether it's in a courtroom or anywhere else, based on TikTok videos and star signs, you know, I don't know if you've seen any of those clips, Mark, like a bunch of these astrologer people are like, oh well, you know,

this is in retrograde, and that's Patrick Clancy's birthday, it is freaking lunacy, and then there's one TikTok that we were talking about on our thread, that's the brats dolls one, with a woman has like a, she does, with brats dolls, and she recreates the crime scene, she put, she'd be like,

“"Pretty give this diorama, and I watched this whole thing, and I'm begging Mark for the viewer, I'm like, please tell me, this is satire, and it's not real, and I, I still want to believe it, it's Mark, but I, whether she was joking."”

That's possible, we did. Matt's talking about, we have an internal kind of MK2 crime thread, and Matt was, Matt's not a big textur, so, you know, but that was when he was jumping in, I thought, I could almost tell through the text that your head was exploding. Oh, it's begging, please tell me this is a joke, and I don't think it was, Mark, I think she's serious, and certainly the people that hop on that, Patrick Clancy is innocent of this, the 911 tape, that is kind of hardening to hear the jurors talk about that, how that did not play any role in the deliberation, which is exactly right, and that's, and all that is extraordinary.

You would have to be literally so detached from reality, kind of, you know, ironically, in a case where the woman was so detached from reality, and it, I don't know if we've got any other thoughts, but the other thing that the three female jurors said, and I didn't see the rest of the male juror, and I generally resist talking to jurors in my own cases, I know prosecutors love to do it. You know, I do not love to do it, but they fact that they talked about and used the same term that you and I were using, which was, and it frustrates you more, I've never prosecuted, I refused to, I was offered the LADA job, and I refused it for, because I never wanted to prosecute someone for somebody, somebody for something I would do, but you did it, and you were, you were off the charts, good about it.

And I always thought, just like judges that we've talked about this, when you watch another prosecutor, it must drive you crazy, and we said it in real time, how tone deaf for these prosecutors, and people said, well, how are they, and one of the criticisms, the jurors I've heard, is that one particular juror who was saying they, they should know empathy or this or that, and this is what I think she was saying, and this is what I wanted to hear you say,

“or respond to, I guess, they were tone deaf in the sense that remember early on in this case, before it got any critical momentum, I mean, I'm talking almost two months ago.”

I kept saying, for all the people who said they're going to, the jurors are going to hate this woman, it's like, what reality do you live in, when they're looking at this woman who's sitting there,

and they hear the 911 call of the husband, who's still supportive of her, she's sitting in a wheelchair at the council table, sobbing uncontrollably, she killed her kids, and now she's on trial for that, and she's having to watch all of these people praying for them, they're not going to hate her. I just, that is not, that was never a winning hand, but I admit I've never been a prosecutor, but I certainly have, I stopped counting it 300, the number of prosecutors who I've done cases against, you tell me, was that a winning strategy, and they just had a bad jury?

Mark had drove me crazy, as I'm sure you can imagine, and just a quick side story for the viewers, the first death penalty case I did, and I'll leave all the names out of it.

It was really experienced, I know you know in Mark, but I don't want to, I don't want to feel names because I don't want to call out the other one who's very professional, very nice, just, just not as talented as this guy. And I watched the other lawyer, cross-examine, really important witnesses, and just miss every opportunity to score points.

“And I, and I really like this guy, and I know him for years, and you know, those things take months, and one point I leaned over, and I'm like, hey, what's it like watching another lawyer try your case and screw it up?”

And he leaned over and he said it is more excruciating than you know, and in Orange County, it's one lawyer, one case, we almost never co-prosculated anything.

So I lived or died based on my own decisions, Mark, so watching these prosecutors, I had that same feeling, and I don't think they weren't motivated by malice, they've been villainized, they just weren't good, and I want to be fair to them, and you know Mark, I keep saying that, want to be fair, but I got to buy you dinner, Mark, and I will march down every mistake. I think they made, including that one, like you don't, you go in, you lean into the mental illness, Mark, right? You're going to say, this is my lunatic.

She's a lunatic, but here's why she can control a condo, because she controls it all day, sends him on an errand, she knows what she's going to do, doesn't tell anybody else about command hallucinations, and so she's able to control control control, control, and as soon as he's out of the house, now obviously she loses control, that's the argument. You lean into the mental illness, of course she tried to kill herself, all of that, and they poo-pooed it, and they said they were some weird, like, in the opening, I never even followed it, it was a half-hearted attempt, and you nailed it, Mark, you're exactly right, she's in a freaking wheelchair, nobody's believing that never, and Mark knows this for the viewer even better than I do.

“Every jury trial is a contest of credibility at the end, and if you are making stupid arguments that you don't need to make, you lose credibility when you say a bunch of things like they said it was a half-hearted tooth at a time.”

It wasn't, it was legit, you know, the question is, could she control her conduct according to Massachusetts law? That's it, and they never, they never got that Mark, and another thing that drove me nuts, was they never explained reason without, I started every single closing argument, I ever did, for, I don't know, 125 jury trials, after I finally figured it out, doing misdemeanors, you start with reason without, and you explained to them what a biting conviction means, and you hammer it, and you turn it into, if you do it right, you turn it into a prosecution instruction, we didn't get any of that from these prosecutors, and again, they've been pilloried publicly, and I heard a rumor that one of them was on, and I hope that's not true, because that's, you know, they just, everybody, everybody isn't good at this, and it also, it's this case from my view from a prosecution standpoint, is a reminder to every prosecutor out there, and every voter who elects prosecutors, the talent and the experience of the lawyers that are representing the people,

really matters, right, Mark, it's like, I mean, there are many times, I mean, I've leaned over to a client, and I've said about a prosecutor, this guy, or this gal, is doing a better job than I did on cross with their direct. Right, right, and it's those, it's those rookie mistakes that you make that just, it, Mark, like the, like the reading from the notes, when you, when we first started talking about this case, it was right after opening statements, Mark, I couldn't believe they're reading from their notes, and they were, they lost the jury, Kevin writing to his opening statement was excellent, and he kept the jury, and he set the tone, I think he lost that one juror and closing.

“Right, that, that's my thing, I think he lost that juror in, in jury selection. We're probably right, probably right, probably right, I think it's a thing.”

Yeah, we're going to take a time out because guess who's joining us, we're moving from one high profile case to another Taylor, Taylor from LA Magazine, she here, can we bring her in?

This is Taylor, who's a superstar, this is her. What's so nice to meet you, Taylor, I've seen some of you here before, so I was excited to hear you're going to come on with us. So Taylor, what's, what's the latest, where you're taping this on Thursday afternoon, dropping Friday, we'll see if there's a verdict today, I'm guessing, no, but let's hear what you've got to say. Yeah, we are still in the middle of this waiting game. We have, this is a trial that's so insane because there's so many fans showing up, so we have people camping out in the hallway for this jury verdict.

And we've gotten three notes so far, but from what I'm guessing, it doesn't seem like we're going to be getting a verdict today, they seem to be taking things into consideration very carefully.

Yeah, so this is a murder for higher trial of rapper Lil Dirk, he allegedly hired a group of five men to come in and perform this hit on Cuando Rondo, that missed Cuando Rondo, but instead hit his cousin Savaya Robinson, so we have three people who have, like, who are telling on Dirk essentially who have testified for the prosecution that were a part of this group of five, and then we have two defendants that are sitting alongside Dirk that are saying they're not guilty.

So we have, yeah, it's been a lot to digest. The trial has been three weeks, but we've learned so much in those three weeks.

And we are waiting to find out if the jury is going to convict Lil Dirk of this murder for higher wear, we haven't seen a proof of a payment, so that is something the prosecution has really had to work through is convincing the jury that there was a promise of payment, even though we never saw a payment. We know the, I know all the players here, Ian, who's the prosecutor is a handful, and Brian Steele and Drew Findling are the defense lawyers, and none other than Mike Fitzgerald, a judge Fitzgerald is the article three judge presiding over this, full disclosure, I've known Mike Fitzgerald for 30 years, and I actually tried jury trials when he was a defense lawyer with him.

He was co-consolant in case on a case. The memorably, not guilty that we tried back in, I think it was 1999 in the central district, how is he as a judge, because he will not let me appear in front of him. So can you, can you tell me how he is as a judge? Yeah, I think a lot of people on the internet are very hard on Judge Fitzgerald, they think that he's bias, I have not seen that personally. I think he has been very fair, I think that fairness is at the forefront of what he seems to stand for, and he very much.

I think above all, he said the most important person in the room is Mrs. Robinson, who is the victims mother, and then he said next to the hit them is Dirk's family, the defendants family, and he also just seems to be someone who really prioritizes what's best for the jury as far as their time and respecting their time and their service that they're doing here. But other than that, he is, he's someone who said this out loud, he doesn't change his mind very often, he's willing to hear hearing both sides, but he does object, I mean he does overrule objections quite a bit on both sides, as well as sustaining when he thinks is fair.

“So I haven't seen him lead one where the other, he seems to, he seems to be a no-nonsense kind of judge, and the his pet peeve is wasting time, that's what I've noticed for sure.”

So just to give us, sorry, go ahead, Mark.

Now it's okay, go, Matt. So just to give us a little contrast, we were just talking about Lindsey Clancy, you watched the closings, how long, how much time did the prosecution spend in opening and in rebuttal? How long was there of closing ballpark, would you say? Six hours, so we got three hours. Six hours.

Yeah, we got three hours for the prosecution, who split that time half of it was their closing arguments and the other half of their last word,

they're rebuttal, and then we had three hours dedicated to the defense and Lindsey and Wilson's defense did give 30 minutes of their time 15 each to Dirk's team, who got in total, I'm trying to do math here in total, that's an hour and a half for banks as attorneys. Okay, so over over 10 hours total, roughly. Yeah, it was a long day. We went until 5 p.m. that didn't think we stretched it a little past 5 p.m. And just to be honest, Mark and I, Mark and I go in here.

“No, yeah, Mark and I are smiling here because that is how you do a closed hurricanement, right?”

And I don't know the prosecutors on this, I don't know the defense lawyers marked us for years, but that's the way you do a murder closing. You take your time with the law, you explain it to them, you try to anticipate questions. You take careful notes of the defense closing, you respond versus 42 minutes for the prosecution in the Lindsey Clancy case. Just so the viewer has an understanding what, what, what she saw was the way of closing is supposed to be done in a murder case, right? So, and what were your impressions just overall?

I mean, these are all very experienced lawyers. Good judge, right? What do you think?

“What, as your, as you, you watch this, what, what's your takeaway as for just as far as the quality of the process?”

Yeah, I think this was both sides was the definition of a dramatic closing argument. Both of them went hard to the point where they, they to use their time well for sure.

He was even wrapping on the state as he was giving his closing arguments.

“He said that jerk's not even Jay-Z, so why are we, why are we spending so much time talking about how famous he is?”

And then we had the defense who tore apart the prosecution in their closing statement. They're closing arguments. They told the jury that these people were corrupt. They were twisting their client's words because they wanted a big fish. So it, like I said, drama was, is the best word I can give for these closing statements.

Court can be boring, but both sides are not boring in this trial. And it, yeah, there was a lot of moments where I looked to my right and looked to my left and everyone was in shock of these arguments that were being given. It's really a, it's really quite a contrast in a lot of ways. I, you know, the judge Fitzgerald is a former prosecutor and then he was a defense lawyer for many years. In fact, his partner when he was in private practice was a very good, a mentor to me.

And so it shows you how far back his brothers twin brother was also a U.S. attorney. So he's stepped out of that role as prosecutor and defense lawyer. And when I, it sounds like Taylor, if I'm right, he was equal opportunity on each side. Is that fair? That's how I see it, absolutely.

Looks like we lost Taylor. I was, there were two quotes that I, that I saw in the transcripts because obviously I wasn't there. One was Matt.

He, the judge cut off one of the prosecutors and said, basically, you're a better trial lawyer than this.

Act more like a DA and less like an emotomelvony first year partners are first year lawyer. Right, just see that one. No, but that is biting. That actually hurts me just hearing it, Mark.

“That's like, that's a lightning bolt from the bench, right?”

And then to the defense, I think I forget if it was directed a Brian, I think it was. He said something equally is cutting, you know, if you're knees chopped off on that. But as I've often said, what you want out of a judge is what somebody is not going to carry the water for one side or the other. Right, and for me, I can't imagine doing that's fine. I don't care.

Right, and isn't it a thing, Mark, where when you have a really good judge and they rip the other side.

You just know you're getting a lightning bolt soon.

You just know there's, there's something coming your way because the judge is going to balance that out. And, and you try to do your best. Frank Faso was kind of famous for that. One of the best. Oh, my God.

I'm trying to take a sample. Frank Faso. For those, we should tell this story. I'll tell this story.

“I spent 10 weeks with Frank, his honor, Judge Faso in Santa Ana.”

And he's a retired Marine. The DA was a retired Marine. I am not anything but a retired Marine. But he may have been one of the best trial judges. He had, what was it?

It wasn't department five. What was his department in there? I was. Yeah, so he went up to a long cause. Yeah, he was in 40.

And then he truly, if everything worked right in the universe, he would live to be a thousand years old and be a trial judge that entire time. He's, I mean, he's, he's the judge. We imagine a judge is going to be like, when we're in law school and you read, you know, opinions where they're wise and they're fair and they're stern and they jump on you when you deserve it and they're nice to you when you don't. And that, that's Frank Faso to a teen. I can say enough good things about him.

Yeah. He really, he gave me a great trial. Yeah. He was wonderful. He understood the evidence code.

I mean, he just understood. I mean, you would not have to ever even be tempted to do a speaking objection because he, he was there sooner than you were in terms of the evidence code. I did the lights were on with him. I got, we got, I got more stories that I got to share with you. I'd hand with some of the guys you, you will know. But next, my friend and senior investigator for the LADA's office, Lisa Hunter joins us to discuss. Rodney will call the dating game killer. I got some stories that I want to share with Mark on this.

This, of course, was, yeah, Rodney will call a one of the most vicious serial killers in American history and Lisa was my investigator in that case. And I got, we got some tales from the well on that one. So please stay tuned. Mark, I want to introduce you to one of my dear friends.

Lisa was my assigned investigator for the viewer in the way Orange County does it. It's a vertical system. So I was given cities and you get your own cop.

“Your own investigator to one-on-one where we would work cases together. And Lisa had the difficult task of supervising me, basically, for years.”

She was your babysitter. If it, Mark, if it was not for that woman, like, she would, she would organize everything so that I would show up on time her and our paralegal named Dean of Bashing, my love love love. And they would have to deal with my nonsense behind the scenes like, and for the viewer, there's a time mark. And I don't know if you suffer from the same melody I do, but when I'm in trial, I am, I'm hopeless. And I, I, I, I lost my wallet one time. But I bought something on mine. I knew it was in my house. And I put it in the freezer mark. And like, this is, like Lisa, I would lose my keys constantly. There was a time where I couldn't find my, my ear, my ear pods that when they were like wired and we're all going to lunch.

And I'm in the back seat, like a child, and Lisa's driving in Dean is in the right front pass to your seat. I've been looking all morning because I couldn't find my stupid ear pods. And we're leaving the parking lot to go to lunch and they look over and they're dangling from my car door. I've shut them in my car door and Lisa turns to Dean and she goes, he's so stupid. He's like, I know. And I'm like, guys, I'm literally sitting here in the back seat.

Lisa, are you in LA days, though?

No, I, I left in 2022. So I was only there for two years. And then I figured after 32 years of law enforcement, I was, I was done so. Wow, so we did the Rodney alcoholic case mark. And this was like, she did or her mother because she looks. Oh my god, I'm totally done to have done the alcohol case because that was when you were newly minted as a homicide prosecutor.

“Brand new. Brand new. I think landed on my desk.”

She actually did. Right when I get rotated and I'm 34 years old, I look like I was 12 and I get all cola. So for the viewer, Rodney all cola was prosecuted twice in Orange County for the murder of a 12 girl girl in Robin Samso. And then it gets reversed twice and lands on my desk and during the pillow process, every time a kiss gets reversed, it gets gutted. There's our boy. So he just, we have a picture of him on the dating game. I think we have a clip, right? We got a shot for that, I think guys.

Well, let's see, back to number one is a successful photographer who got to start when his father found him in the dark room at the age of 13 fully developed.

Between takes, he might find him skydiving or motorcycle, please welcome Rodney Alkalah. Bad woman. Bachelor number one. Yes. Well, it's your desk time.

The best time is at night, at night time. Why do you say that? Because that's the only time there is.

“The only time, what's wrong with morning after noon?”

Well, they're okay, but night time is when it really gets good and you're really ready. A bachelor number one. I am serving you for dinner. What are you called and what do you look like? I'm called the banana and I look really good.

Can you be a little more descriptive? Peel me. Well, I like bananas. So I'll take one. Number one.

A bachelor number one. All right. Teelo. The Rodney Alkalah. Rodney Alkalah.

Congratulations, Rod. You did it. But the one answer. Hmm. So that was filmed in 1977.

And for the viewer, what happened there is that he's, he's already been to stay present for kidnapping and almost murdering an eight-year-old girl named Talish Shapiro in 1968. So he gets, he flees to New York, gets away from that scene, gets extra ideas on the F.S. Hemsworth's one list, gets enrolled after 34 months. That was well, he was at the height of his spirit in 1977.

Craig Robison, who is the investigator on that case, estimates that he probably killed about a hundred people. So he's got, he's been convicted twice, lands on my desk. No sooner is the ink dry on what's called the Return of a Midditor that we start getting DNA hits Mark out of LA County

and Lisa is my investigator. Then like every good sexual psychopath, Mark, he decides to go pro-per. And I try to with Gina Satriano, who I know you know, and I love you.

Yeah, yeah. Pro baseball player.

“And by the way, she was a star pitcher on the course silver bullets on.”

It's all heavy. If the Colorado silver bullets, it's right. And one of the best people I know. So that's all it goes pro-per, and Lisa Hunter has to deal with Rodney Alcala. And he's, I mean, Lisa, tell us some Rodney Alcala stories

that you remember. Oh, gosh. Well, he was just creepy as hell. You know, anytime he would say my name, it just, I just felt so sick.

You know, I didn't want to get near him. I sat in the back for most of the trial. But there were times, you know, I'd have to go up and talk to you. And he would turn to me and say something to me. And it's, it's just a, every time a woman.

Yeah. So my investigator is female Mark. There's a guy named Alfredo Rauch, wonderful man. He was the court appointed investigator. He had these two very nice young women working for him.

And just watching all call of like, you know, and I, and I dealt with him. And he, he would just just light up. Like, light up every time a woman would walk in it. He loved to tell everybody what to do.

And you could see the control stuff. So I do the, the, what Gina and I decided to do was every time we had to tell him no, which was constantly, right? He's proper. We would, um, I'd blame Gina, right?

So if you feel like I was going to be his buddy, so that we could get through the, get through the trial. And then every, and where I would just blame Gina. So he would come in with his laundry list.

“Remember that at least in just about every day of these new insane things”

that he wanted us to do. And it'd be like, yeah, sorry, Rod can't do that one. Can't do this one either. I don't know what her problem is. I would have said yes, Rod, but Gina said no.

And that, and we, that was the, basically the whole trial.

And then I do my closing. And I now you realize this first time Mark, because you see my closing that I'm not his buddy. And I'm pointing my finger and I call him a devil and all the stuff. And he, he realizes this.

And he points his Boni little serial killer finger at me. And he said, you played fast and loose with the facts. And I hear a click from the gallery. And of course, there's media all over the case. And they snapped a photo as you did this.

And I thought after, I don't know how many months Lee said, uh, that it was funny that a serial killer is accusing me of being dishonest, right? And I laughed. And the, and it wasn't kind of registered. The, the caption for that photo was DMM Murphy laughs at serial killer.

There it is. laughs at serial killer Rodio call it. And then the LA Times Mark the next day writes an article. And they captioned that image. DMM Murphy shares a laugh with, with convicted serial killer Rodio call it.

And Mark, I got hate mail. I got a written letter from Ireland from a guy whose last name is Murphy saying, I was in disgrace to the entire Murphy bloodline. because I had laughed and we did, we did good work on that.

We convicted him, got him sensitive for the third time.

You want to dying in prison. Um, and Anna Kendrick made a movie out of it. And for those of you, my, my paper back of my book. We did a whole chapter on this. I'll plug my book, which I don't think I've ever done on our show before Mark.

It's called the book of murder. There's a whole story about Rodio call. But Lisa got me through that through that trial. There we go. Back, um, I love the Disney Disney artist.

So we saw you have a question for you. Tell me. Tell me, you're working with Matt in the courtroom. Do you ever feel sorry for the defense lawyer? I know you don't.

Sorry for I call out when he was there going pro.

“But don't you feel when Murphy was in his heart throb era?”

Didn't you feel a little sorry for the defense lawyer? I always did. He's so likable. Everybody liked him. And, and he, you know, he was really nice to all the defense attorneys to.

He's a professional. You know, he used to say he's brilliant in the courtroom. And a complete dork in real life. You know. And I mean.

Yeah.

So the one thing that always used to, you know, because I've often,

my favorite line about Matt is that if he was around during Romeo and Juliet, and we had he would have prosecuted Romeo for stocking. And the thing, the problem with Matt is precisely what you just said. As a defense lawyer, when you start picking a jury, it's a whole different calculation. Because the jurors would swoon over him.

And it was just he was idiotating in my youth. The judges, judges love him too. I don't know how you compete with that. Everybody loved him. Trust me.

I mean, the way to compete was I would try desperately to talk of him into a deal. If you would've been saw of everything. Yeah. But it resolved the case. So I didn't have to pick 12.

Yeah.

“Is that the only case you guys ever worked together on?”

Oh, no.

We did, uh, we did dozens together.

We did just, we did do it in a daily own cases that we did those two death cases. Skyler and JFK. And then the last one. I'll call it. Yeah.

I'll call it. I'll call it. My lead investigator on the daily own cases was Dave Byrington. And so we did, we tried that case with three different code of sentence. So we tried them all separately.

So that we were in trial for like a year on that thing. You know, one after another, we did the last one against Chuck Leonard, who I know, you know. And Kevin McKesson. I really like Kevin. And I like Chuck too.

We all, we all got along. But it turns out my lead investigator for all those. They bought him detective sergeant Dave Byrington, who everybody joked that I had a man crush on. Because I love man so much. You do.

I do. Turns out, behind the scenes, my investigator, um, years later, uh, shared my crush and, uh, they wound up. That is now. They got married. And I, and I, I feel, yeah, I feel like Dave kind of cheated on me a little bit with my own investigator.

Um, I'm a little jealous. Uh, but yeah, they, they wanted to clear things up. There was many, many years later because many years later. Many years later. Yes, many years later.

Yes, many years later. Yeah, I mean, like 2008 and 9, I think. And Dave and I might, my, my 20, 20, 20, 20. I love her. These, did you see the sparks then or now?

I have a, oh, God, no. No. No. And everybody, no, she's talking, he's talking about me. Um, yeah.

Oh, you had a day. Oh, my God. He would sit in Matt's office. And, and, and my office was, my cubicles right across from Matt's office. So I could hear everything that's going on.

And they're talking about. Family guy and all this ridiculous stuff. And I'm at my desk trying to manage like 50 witnesses and get everything organized for trial. And, and I'd have to go in there and tell Matt, I need you to focus on me right now. You know, because there haven't been a time.

So we did a media interview with that my friend Melissa McCarty wants. Um, and they flew, David Tires. He moves up to the Civic Northwest and flies in just to give you an idea, Mark.

“And Melissa McCarty is a very beautiful reporter, right?”

Very stunning, really.

And I've never met her before.

And Dave walks in and the running joke was that was that David and I love each other. And that went on for years. I mean, we bought her to have the round time stay gifts and it was just anyway. Dave walks in and he, and he, she turns around and she's been talking on the phone. And he walks in and he looks at me and my, my chair's facing it.

And he kind of gives me this look like, you know, like, Azure new prom photo, like, like, look. And, and he comes over like hands, arms open. And Melissa gets up and goes, oh, I guess, I guess we hug. And he looks at her and he goes, not you.

And he walks up and kisses me on the lips. Yeah. Yeah. So my boy. Yeah.

I love, I love Dave buying 10. I love, yeah. I love your husband. And if you ever kick him to the curb, he has a place in my couch. So, and for the viewer, I am not, I am not gay.

But for Dave buying 10, I would probably be willing to learn. So he's a liquor that that man. He's, he's a good liquor man. So Chuck Lindner, for those who don't know. Chuck is, is reputed.

He will tell you this. He's told me on camera. I know. Yep. He says that he wrote the parts of the closing argument in O.J. for Johnny.

“And that he coined the phrase, if it don't fit, you must equip.”

That is Lindner. He also, by the way, has a prosthetic leg.

And I'll never forget him telling me this story about trying to go through a metal detector

at the prison to visit a client. And the leg kept setting off the metal detector. And finally, he got so frustrated because they wouldn't listen to him. That he unscrewed it and threw it in the metal detector. He, he, I didn't even know he had that leg.

The prosthetic leg, he lost it to cancer when he was, I think, 60 in some rare form of cancer. And he showed up in a suit every time and mark every single day of the trial. And that was in front of Faso. He brought in a wheelchair.

And it was, it was almost like Marty Feldman in, in young Frankenstein. Where, with the hump was always moving. And there was always a different explanation. And like, he would talk about like mistakes. And like, I didn't know if he lost it in Vietnam or if it was like a car.

But it was about mistakes. And like, it was, I like Chuck. And I'm not throwing any shade on Chuck. We got it on fine. But it was, yeah, quite an experience.

I'm, I'm really glad that she would come and come on our show.

I, she's just one of my dears friends. And I, Lisa, you would come back.

“Because I, there's stuff I'd love to talk to you about.”

But we're on a very short leash today.

So please come back. It was a pleasure seeing you. All right.

Nice talking to you guys.

Take care, Matt. Bye. Bye. All right.

“So I want to thank my co-host Mark Eriegos.”

The great Mark Eriegos. Our guest Taylor Perez. And of course, Lisa Hunter. And I want to thank all of you from the bottom of my heart.

“On behalf of Mark and I, the numbers have been great.”

There's been a really wonderful response from from from the viewers. Everybody is very happy at our, our MK through crime overlords that help us produce this podcast. So thank you to the viewer. Thank you for listening to Mark and I and can't wait for next week's show. Lisa, can I?

See you then, Matt. Thanks, Mark.