[MUSIC]
>> Hello everyone and welcome to Positively Legal.
“I'm Mark Eiglarge and my bio seems to indicate that I'm a former prosecutor,”
veteran criminal defense attorney, adjunct law professor, author, and someone who's filled with gratitude and happiness. Because here I am with John the Civil War. Let's go, baby. Come on.
You know, this is a really fun day. Because I got to see you two times today, Mark. And yes, I am John A. Spillboard. I'm a criminal defense attorney and founder of John A. Spillboard law. Say that ten times fast, but listen, we, Mark and I have had a very busy day
because the jurors in the Lindsey Clancy trial are deadlocked. The jurors announced on Tuesday that they were unable to come to a unanimous decision and the judge sent them back to continue deliberations. When this show airs on Wednesday, the jurors will resume deliberating. We will bring you all the details on that.
>> Yes, I'm still looking to hear your thoughts on the case. I can't get enough of it. And also, I don't know if you saw it. I don't want to call you out in case you're going to fake it. But this new Netflix talk, it's even a face to you and watch it.
>> I watched some, I did watch some. Okay, fair enough, there's a trailer. All right, we watched this new Netflix documentary. And by we, in the interest of disclosure, me and my wife. It wouldn't include John A. But she's going to act like she did.
It's called Death of a Pastor's wife. And we're going to share our thoughts about it. It's a number one show in the country at Netflix.
But first, John A. Grab your drinks, if you got him.
>> Yep. >> All I got is Zephyr's. It is happy hour time. And I get to talk to you. First and foremost, last time we were together.
Okay, last week with positive legal, you were going on a vacation. And you had not gone on one. You had not gone one in what? 10 years?
>> longer than that, since 2010. >> Okay, I want to hear about it. Do tell. >> 10 years, okay. >> So, how drunk did you get? All right, go ahead.
>> No, I actually not that bad. So, last weekend, me and three of my cousins took a girl's trip to Ocean City, Maryland, okay. Which was, you know, delight. But one of my cousins arranged the whole thing.
She rented the Airbnb condos. She knew all the places to go. We were right on the beach. So you can get up in the morning and go. You would have loved it, Martville.
“You live on the beach, I think, already, anyhow.”
But you can go down there and do your yoga. And people were doing their tide. She and it was, that part was fabulous. I really enjoyed the, I really only had two days, because we drove down and drove back.
But I enjoyed it for the, but every story has a button. I'm waiting for the time that you got touched. What happened? >> Tell me what happened. >> Well, well, okay.
So you know, I mean, without your permission, go ahead. >> I did, I disclosed, I think before we went, that I disclosed you, Dickhead. >> Go ahead. >> That I, seriously, I bought a little device that attacks,
hidden cameras, because I am a lawyer and I am constantly skeptical. Now, it was, I seriously bought it. I was hoping that I could just end up making a joke out of it. But Mark, are you ready? Are you ready?
>> No, no, you didn't catch anything. >> Mark? >> No, tell me. >> One hidden camera. >> Shot, oh, shot the front door, if a woman is crying.
>> Where was it? >> So I'm going to talk about this in my rant, and I may even show you a video, but I'm going to tell you this. It was in such an obvious place that I almost didn't need my hidden camera detector, but illegal, nonetheless, because it was not--
>> I can't believe this, Mark. >> Mark, I can't believe this. >> It was crazy. >> What's their position that we just have it for safe keeping, that it wasn't a monitor you if you hypothetically got naked,
and/or did things that you didn't want on video? Like, that's an invasion of privacy. >> And it's totally illegal, and I don't know the outcome yet, because this will have to be a part three. Since my cousin rented the place in her name,
I'm just basically her mouthpiece.
She is calling the company, and this is our first day back, and she's going to alert them to the problem, and then we're going to see what they're going to do about it.
“>> Did you put a little post-it note over the camera to block it?”
So what did you do? You didn't let it just run? >> I picked it up. I moved it outside of the apartment. >> Nice.
>> I put it facing the wall by a elevator? >> Okay. >> That's where that McCrissie ate the entire time. >> Well, we'll hear more in your rent about this, right, so I won't pick your brain too much.
>> And maybe we'll play my own documentary about it later on, but right now we have to get into the Lindsey Clancy stuff mark,
Because this is really, you have wonderful opinions,
opposite mine, but you have very, very intelligent, very, very coherent opinions on this case.
“But can I ask you something before we jump into all that?”
Because the jury, we're airing on Wednesday. The jury actually asked to go home early on Tuesday, again, without a verdict. >> Do we know why? Do we know why did they tell us?
>> They did not say why? They just said to the judge at 3/3, because normally they go home at 4 at 3/3, 3/3. Judge Commencement said, "You guys have asked to go home, "I'm going to let you out early, see you tomorrow.
Don't talk, don't watch the news. Don't do all that stuff that he has to say."
So my first question to you is,
"I'm feeling a little weird about that." Like, do you think it could be that they wanted to literally, that they have a decision that they literally want to sleep on? >> That's not what I came up with. >> Or do you think they're still just deadlocked,
and they don't know what to do? >> I immediately got a download, okay, and this is what I got, and I don't know if it's accurate, but right away I got this. >> Tell me.
>> The odds of them jumping over to the fence and joining their fellow jurors, like this is a division, right? And let's assume it's not just one. Let's assume for a second, it's a few like societies.
Reflection on this case, it's divided, right? The odds of that happening. So then they come out and they say, "Judge, we have tried. "We can't reach a verdict."
That took a lot to get to that point. >> It did.
>> They didn't do that willy-nilly.
They've been in there for hours. And the judge said, "Yeah, no, go back in." Right, that's torturous, put yourself in their shoes. Just go back in, what?
“And then those hours spent, now going back in, right?”
Six hours, that's insane, that's difficult. They don't want to be there. And I think some are probably worn down, and I can't, I can't, I can't do this anymore. I need to get out of here, I can't, I cannot do this anymore.
I will not continue. That's the feeling that I get. Just a good, it could be, I could be totally off. >> That's the download you got. But they're just so tired that I can't, I'm out.
>> Who wants to be in a room? 'Cause then it starts to get personal. Someone feels so strong about the position. Who can artfully say to them, "Listen, I hear what you're saying.
"I respect your point of view. "But have you considered, they've tried that." They're at the point where they're like, "You don't even, that doesn't even make any sense. You're just, you know, you know that there's that going on."
>> But I get that, but I gotta ask you something though. Okay, there could be something to your download, and you know, you're into your inner pickle baller. >> I could be wrong, I could be wrong.
>> But here's what's going on in my head.
Like, they're spending a whole lot of time mark without asking a single question in a complicated case with the competing expert testimony. >> 'Cause they got my jury instructions. >> Yeah.
>> So the fact that they're being quiet is bothering me. >> Hold on, does this change your position? Apparently they have the jury instructions. So if there's any questions, they've got them right there. They do not have to have the judge read back any sections.
>> Okay. >> So let's start with that. >> Mm-hm. >> Secondly, they've seen the evidence. They know what it is. I don't think that there's a dispute.
We all know what the evidence is. >> But look at the exercise bands. >> You don't need to see them. >> But look at what they did ask for early on. >> Okay, great.
And that's all. We just want to take a look that came up as an issue. Great, now they've seen it. It's just in basketball. The guy who's driving to the hoop is it a charge or is it a foul?
It depends upon your perspective. Are you a home team guy or are you a visiting team guy? It's the same set of facts. Everybody's looking at the same thing. They see it differently.
Are you with me? Yes? >> That was an awesome analogy. And I don't even like basketball. >> And it's a metaphor. So not analogy.
>> Oh, no. >> Yeah. >> Mm-hm. >> It is. >> I don't even admit it again. Again, I don't need to be right here, Janna. I don't need to be right.
We'll call it an analogy. I appreciate the compliment. >> Right, welcome. >> But let's get to some of the stuff that's going on. I want to ask your opinion.
There's just one clip. It's sat number four. I want to get your opinion on this. >> All right. >> Like eager.
>> Eager. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Thought four. This is Kevin Reddington, the defense lawyer. A snippet of something he said during closing.
And I want to know how you feel about it. Go. >> Okay.
“>> I don't care how many cops you have to use here.”
How many VA's are sitting here? How many people are sitting in the front row? And they're all going to sit there and be proud of this prosecution. I told you in the opening statement that this is a prosecution that has ripped the soul out of this girl. >> Okay. >> Go at it.
>> Is what? >> Go at it. >> All right. That's- that- that helps us. >> I stopped. >> We got it. >> This is their final.
>> It's so funny. It's so not funny, ha ha that we're showing that clip because I was on air on this channel.
>> Yeah.
And I probably saw that my note in here.
And I wrote down I'm like ripped the soul out of that girl, meaning Lindsay Clancy. I was offended by it. I was offended by it because it's not her soul mark that we give a shit about right now. It's the three lot of souls that she took with her own two hands that she brought forth into this world and are no longer here because she murdered them.
She murdered them whether she's criminally responsible for murdering them is another story. We don't know, but she killed them. Do not try to tell this jury that a prosecutor who rightfully brought these charges ripped the soul out of the person who's standing trial, that was a bridge too far for me. And as was his entire closing argument, I know you've got some strong thoughts on this.
Sucked what say it's give you a little foreshadow from my rant. You know, I'm going to save it for saving for the end of the show too. I feel very strongly about it. But what about this, part of that clip, he now for the first time brings up the police.
The police have never been an issue in this case throughout the whole case.
It's the one trial where you don't have to point your fingers. They did distract me. They did their jobs. There's no finger to point and then closing argument out of nowhere. What do you feel about him now again in that town?
They don't like cops. So I understand if you could somehow point it, but it was not relevant. It had nothing to do with the case. Yes, no. No, I agree. And we actually talked about this about time affairs yesterday on Megan Show.
This was not a police case. This was not a shoddy investigation kind of case where you can put your finger at the cops and say, you know, they didn't talk to all the people they should have talked to. That's not this case. This case is going to liver die on a technicality.
And I have very precise technicality on whether the jury can figure out whether she knew what she was doing was wrong or if she couldn't conform because of her mental illness. Which, again, everybody agrees that she had screws loose. Everyone agrees on that, including the prosecution. But that was Reading Tins' way.
Like, you know, we all criticized the prosecutor early on because of the bow. Remember, a lot of people out there and maybe even you too. But you did. You did a wonderful rant about it. You thought the bow was sending some sort of message that she shouldn't have been sent. You're not supposed to try to garner sympathy with the jury.
Well, this, we could hold on for those just watching this for the first time because one of the
“children, Korra, I think, wore a bow in her hair.”
And the prosecutor was wearing bows in court. And the jurors, I think we're getting that message. You're showing solidarity. Right. Like wearing a pin of a victim, you know what I mean? Right. Not guilty by reason of insanity.
Sure, I'll wear that next time I try an insanity case. Okay, go on. So this was Reading Tins' bow. If the, if the culture in that town is anti-cop, for him to bring in the cops in his clothing, which had nothing to do with anything,
was a way to kind of mentally get inside. Even one of those jurors had to say, yeah, cop. Sure, bad. And that's another reason why you've got to find my, my client not guilty or whatever. Not responsible. That was his bow.
So here's my concern. And tell me if this is your understanding. When I try cases, my credibility is at stake. I want them to believe what I'm saying.
“Because what I'm saying, I believe speaks the truth.”
The minute I make an argument that isn't intellectually honest or doesn't resonate with the jury, the minute that I bully a witness who should not be bullied. Somebody who just doesn't deserve it. The minute I make some type of argument where I'm indicting a group of people that don't need to be indicted, I lose my credibility to some extent, but this jury.
And everybody hailed him as such a hero, this defense lawyer, okay? And there are wonderful things that he did throughout this trial, including but not limited to feeling for her. I admire that, okay? He doesn't feel for it. He's a tremendous advocate, but come on, Janna.
I feel like there were times where he made some arguments, where I don't think everybody was with him. And I think that hurts his client's case. Did you in the closing or throughout the trial? Throughout for sure, but certainly in closing.
Closing for his closing was all over the place. Well, you're going to hear that for me. How about this? Let's look at sought number three. A trend now, and all of these high profile cases is there's causes,
“or there's groups of admirers, right? We're seeing this in every case, right?”
Right. Just for Lindsay, just like, like, you know, there's just a-- Hands up, don't you?
Yeah, there's everything.
of "Rettington," the defense lawyer, sought three. Let's listen to that. "Best ready to move on," I said. I had my mental health weaponized against me at the end of the trial. Sure. I had an issue whenever my son was postpartum.
I went around his postpartum, my second son was eight months.
You're the voice. I'm sorry. I don't know what Kelly went for. Are you Lizzy? I know what she went through. I do like--
“What do you make of that? You know what the truth of matter is?”
I say this with love. I can't-- I can't thank him enough for the attention, and all this kind of stuff, but if he could acquit his client by taking the opposite position, he would have understood that it just happens to coincide with his mission. But his mission is not mental health.
It's not postpartum. It's not women. It's defending this person. And in doing so, he happens to be on a cause that resonates with people. Yes? And that's another indication that not every person who's marching outside the courthouse,
wearing a pink t-shirt, has paid attention
to every word of this trial. That woman needs to be crying on, you know, men and men as a shoulder, not on Kevin Rettington's shoulder. You're right. Kevin Rettington is not the voice of so many moms. He's the voice of Lindsey Clancy, because thankfully, so many moms
don't kill their own children. The one saving grace of this trial is I do agree. It has raised awareness for postpartum depression, which in and of itself usually doesn't result in murder. It's when that turns into a postpartum psychosis,
which is rare, can. So that's good. There's a light that has been shown on the issue, perfect. But please, for the love of God people, stop forming fan clubs for others who kill people, especially children.
I said the same thing about Luigi Manjiani.
He doesn't deserve a fan club. Well, it's all with people. That's a good example of one that where people have lost their minds. All right, so this is airing Wednesday. We're Tuesday right now.
Juris went home, so let's pretend it's Wednesday. Juris may come back and say we're still hung. You agree that's likely plausible scenario that come back and say, we're not going from, she's a murdering mother too. Okay, let me show her compassion, let her go live in a hospital
or vice versa. She's not responsible. She was hearing voices, postpartums, psychosis. She's not responsible. Okay, she's a murdering mother. Let's put her in prison for the rest of her life.
“You don't think that's going to happen at this point, correct?”
That they're going to come to a unanimous decision? Right, you don't think we're getting there, right? I'm leaning to why we're not getting there. Right, okay, so if that's the case, they come back one more time and they say judge, we're hopelessly deadlocked.
Now, let me just tell what the jurors will be getting. Something called an Allen charge or something called a dynamite charge. We're just going to say, listen, we spend a lot of money on this thing. A lot of time, a lot of energy. We're counting on you to make a wise and legal decision.
Go around the table and by the way, it's not this exact language, but it's generally like this. Go around the table and listen to others. Be open to what your jurors are saying, your fellow jurors. Also, reconsider your own position.
We're not telling you to give up your position, but just be open-minded to the others. And then they likely, either, then, I don't know if there's one loan holdout, maybe they change that person's mind. Odds are, as we both agree, there's probably multiple holdouts,
you know, on different sides, and then a mistrows declared. Then what, Jonah? Then what? Right, then the prosecution has got to decide whether they're going to retry the case.
“And I think you and I have a little bit of a difference opinion.”
I say that if there is a mistrial, it's going to open the door for renegotiation for Lindsay Clancy. So that the prosecution doesn't have to bring what you accept. What do you accept if your lawyer, what can you live with? What do you think is a good plea bargain?
I have yet to come up with anything that I would consider taking, especially since I'm thinking, if we try this again, it's going to be hung again. And how many times are you going to keep doing this? They can only do a twice, I think, in Massachusetts.
For real? I think I think and only try a case twice. That's, I don't quote me on that people. I'm not a Massachusetts lawyer, but I did some research on it. We're going to look that up. We're going to check you. Just like they have, and then check me on this, too.
They also have sort of a weird rule that if the jurors are in there,
and let's say they can't decide on the top charge, right?
Which is the first degree murder that they're allowed to
check out the or determine or decide or deliberate on the lower counts. Both of course. Even though they don't have one, well, that don't do that here. No? Because if you don't get, if you can't decide on the top charge, it's like the rest of it just fizzles.
“Oh, no, no, no, no. In fact, that's why I think if anything,”
if any conviction at this point, it would be maybe a manslaughter or compromised verdict, you know? Which doesn't fit the facts, but yeah, but the judge gave them that off-ramp with the lesser included as part of the. I heard last night, I was on a panel on News Nation, and this one judge
disagreed with me, he says, I can see them getting to manslaughter. And it made a little sense. He's like, and it wouldn't just necessarily be a compromise. Maybe they don't believe that the insanity that she was facing, whether the psychosis issues or not, it's psychosis because maybe they don't agree with psychosis, but whatever mental illness she was facing at the time, doesn't negate her guilt, but it does lessen her
culpability that she didn't have the intent in that moment, so that negates the first
“degree murder, and then maybe just brings it down to a manslaughter.”
His words, not mine. I haven't fully thought of it, but it seemed to make a little sense at the time. And he has a former Massachusetts judge. I thought it was interesting. And I disagree with it, but you know, I don't think it's a totally stupid notion. Can I just say something quickly before we go? You can say it slowly. I'll let you say it slowly.
Maybe we're going to, maybe this is a topic for another day, but you were just talking about, you know how we we think that we know what's going on in a jury room, and we don't, right? Oh, I don't think that. We don't know whether it's one person quote unquote holding out or a couple people quote unquote holding out and that and that when you, when you issue a dynamite charge or an Allen charge, that the purpose of that is to take that one or two or three
holdouts and change their minds, right? That's kind of, I hate that whole notion, because the only thing that should change minds in that jury room is a different look at the evidence or a look at a piece of evidence that you hadn't previously contemplated, like it shouldn't be, let me arm wrestle you into changing your mind because this judge wants us to come to a decision, and nobody wants to retry this game. That's not how it should go, but that's not how it should go.
But that's not how it should go. But that's not how it should go. But that's not how it should go. No, who disagrees with you? You know, disagrees with you, the Supreme Court of the United States in
“I know that 1896, US versus Allen, they say, read this Allen charge to the jury, and that's what we're”
going to be done. I know that the charge is valid. I just don't like the release for the charge and what happens when I go. I got it. Most likely nothing will happen, and most often nothing happens. Okay. Next, we're going to dive into this cool documentary that's on Netflix, three-parter. My wife and I saw it, really liked it. John is going to pretend that she saw it. No, I saw something. Okay, called death of a pastor's wife. We're going to talk about that in
just a moment. You definitely want to stick around. We'll be right back. Welcome back to positively legal now, Mark. Yes. I like you raised this topic in our production meeting, and I really liked it, because this is a very interesting, interesting, it's slash weird case. There's a new Netflix documentary, it's getting a lot of traction. It's called
death of the pastor's wife, and let's watch a clip first. Let's watch a clip first.
Let's watch a clip first. Interesting twist. Okay, we can watch it. Let's start with a clip just before we even just talk about it. Let's let's go with that. So, eight, let's do that. Micah was 16 when she made church her life. She loved the church. She loved the people. Micah and John Paul met at Sol of Rock. They look like the ultimate couple. This is what I want to do. My marriage took a bite. Micah was influenced by John Paul because he was 15 years older than
her. She just listened to his voice, a voice of a pastor, a voice of a mentor, and then a voice of a husband. She showed me that John Paul signature was tattooed on her side permanently, like ownership. It kind of spiraled from there. Yeah, it definitely spiraled. All right, so I mean, I don't want to give everything away, but we can talk about it. It is a number one show in the country on Netflix as of day or so ago when I watch with my wife. So you got the main character is Micah, whose family
moved to Murdole Beach, South Carolina. She was very young. Her family was into this church. And it was like the it seemed like a cool church. Solid rock church, like a band-on stage,
Lots of singing.
yeah, they seem where what could go wrong? It seems wonderful, right? So there's Micah,
beautiful young lady. She was only 13 when she first met John Paul or JP Miller. He's the
pastor of the solid rock. And she was smitten with him. I mean, she liked him and was very good friends with him. And but there was like 15 years between them. She gets married to somebody very young. I turned to my wife. I go, this is not going to be good. She's so young, which like,
“I think she was like married it. It was like 18 or 21. It was just very young. And it didn't seem”
like it was going to last. And sure is how it didn't last. She then has an affair Micah does with the pastor. The pastor's married with kids. You know, the pastor who's lecturing everybody about
trying to stay away from lust, right? And good. And sin and all that. It's a crit, right? And then of
course, he separates from his wife. He then takes up with Micah. Him and Micah marry and boy, it turned out to be a real crappy relationship, didn't it? Yeah, I want to be real careful because I don't want to give away. It's got a lot of twisty turns in it. I mean, I know people if you watch the trailer, you're kind of going to know what happens. And then the story evolves around that. Because I did have it. Okay. I had a question to ask you about the theory of what truly happens to
“Micah. But I'm afraid like I now I'm thinking I probably shouldn't ask you because if you haven't”
seen the documentary, you don't know the story, it will definitely give it away.
Okay. Well, you've given the warning. They're going to stay with us. They're still going to watch it. We've got to talk about it. All right. So it's been out a little bit. Let's get with the program people. All right. So it's a spoiler alert. If you pause, pause this now or something. Go watch it. Yeah. Fast forward. Fast forward. If you haven't. Okay. So here's the part that's really got me. So we know that Micah ends up dead. And the interesting thing that I didn't get to that part,
Donna, to matter with you. You're watching. We haven't done part three, Donna. Stop. Go ahead. So, but she calls. So this part was very Hollywood to me. There's she calls 911 to announce that she's about to kill herself. So her family knows where she's going to be when she goes off to some like forest somewhere, some some national park or something. Yeah. And I originally thought. So my before we find out that she actually is no longer alive. I
thought that she was doing that so that she could escape her life. Right. Like she wasn't really going to die. She was going to run away. Right. But she doesn't up dead. And now, so this is the part that I didn't get to. So maybe you can tell me, is the theory that John Paul was there when she called 911 and that he killed her and staged it as a suicide. I don't know. I know at the end of the documentary, they say that the FBI was investigating. I don't know what they've come up with. I know there's a lot
of allegations. We do see that she goes into a Dix pawn shop and purchases a gun on her own. Nobody's there forcing her to do that. The defenses are bigger. Her team is arguing that she bought it because she was so concerned about her life. There she is going into the pawn shop, buying the gun. Yes. And her her her past her husband was so controlling and so manipulative and so abusive. I mean, it's worth watching just to hear some of the stuff that he had her do.
Other than get a boob job, what she didn't want to get, I'm we're talking about hiring homeless people to then do sexual acts with her. And she, but Mark, she did it willingly. Not yes and no, I mean, I don't know if there was a gun to her head, but he manipulated her all about God and your job is to honor your husband and be a better and she kept going down this slope, this horrible slope that led to depression, horrible things. In fact, you know what? Let's go to sat nine.
“This was one of I think the last post that she ever made and this is really her voice.”
I'm not nine. Male or female doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what gender you are, abuse is abuse. And you are the bride of Christ. And my Bible says that he took all the abuse you could think of for you, Jesus took it all for you. So you don't have to stay in a abusive relationship.
God hates divorce, but why?
it's because it hurts people. But does abuse hurt people? How do you think God feels about that?
Jenna, what do you think about the fact that this guy demanded sex from her four to five times a day? Right. So okay, yeah, this guy was a sex addict. He had no business doing the Lord's work because he was a hypocrite. He was a sex addict, order line, criminal, and we'll talk about he has been charged and I'm with murder, but he is facing charges. He was a pig and when you force a wife, the men and women are built differently mark, don't know if you know that. When you force a woman
to succumb four or five times a day, that is like physically, it's possible, I suppose it's possible,
but physically it is actually I think harmful. Yeah, and especially regularly. So she naturally complained and you know what he did. We've got a boost up your libido to match
“mine. Let's give you testosterone injections. Yeah. So that now this girl, you should watch in the”
video her voice at the very beginning, what a beautiful voice she has. The testosterone and that injections screwed up that voice. She could no longer sing the way she used to. So sad. Yeah, well, it's because he pumped her full of male hormones so that her libido could keep up,
but it's not just her libido that is affected if somebody wants to basically rape her for five times
a day. So he needed some serious help and she obviously didn't know where to turn. Now the interesting thing is I feel for her in that post that we just showed in that clip, but she was divorced previously, right? So she cheated on on her husband with this guy. Again, a guy who I think groomed her since she was a teenager though, you know? Right. So I'm just, I wish there's something more to this story because she, let's add some more. Well, she didn't leave. All right.
Let's add some more. Okay. There was a 911 call that you had referred to or we were referring to. That's odd 10. Let's hear that 911 call. Well, I was in counting on one one. What's the address of your emergency? I, um, are you able to trace the location of my phone? Um, let me see. You don't know where you're at. A national park. One be the number of reverse state parks. Yeah, that's where I am. Okay. Tell me what's, um, what happened? Um, um, about to kill myself and
I just want my family to know where to find me. When I saw that, Janna, I was praying that it would come out and he was forcing her to make that call and that they would later uncover it and they would have him in handcuffs and charge him with her murder and that's not how it went down. They ruled us as suicide. They ruled it as suicide. I was hoping that it was a fake call
“so that she could run away from her life. That's what I was hoping to find. The argument that's made”
by I think her attorney, um, because she did move for a divorce. She was, she was served the guy with papers. It's all happened shortly thereafter. It was controlling the hell out of her life. He released photographs that she had taken nude photographs, um, that were meant for his eyes, releasing them to, to congregants, things like that. He was interviewed, though, this arrogant guy, by a reporter from News Nation. It's Sad 11. Let's get a little flavor of what he, uh, says.
Did you ever question the findings that the authorities gave to you that this was suicide? No. I mean, I'm not a detective. I, you know, I watched Scooby-Dougar going up,
“but that's what everybody seems to be acting like is they're, you know, part of the mystery machine,”
but my lord, like let my wife let her let her let her be at peace. Like she's in heaven. She's not worrying about all this stuff. Let her, let her rest. Let her memory rest. In other words, it all added up to you. It made sense to you. I mean, I'm not a detective. If she had heart surgery,
I'm not going to question the heart surgeon.
all. Right, but it's your wife. I mean, it's, and I'm telling you her, her life has ended.
“Are you trying to ask me if I think somebody murdered her?”
Do you think anybody murdered her? No, like no. No, Johnna. No, he's maintained his innocence. Listen, we're shooting all over the guy, but he's maintained his innocence. He hasn't been charged with murder, but he was charged with cyber stalking. He was federally indicted December 2025 on two counts. Cyber stalking and making fall submissive statements to federal investigators. Doesn't that send a message?
Right. And what message? It sends a message. So there must be a lack of sufficient evidence
to arrest him for murder or manslaughter or any sort of correct. And I don't know that he did.
Well, hold on. I don't know that he did under the statutes of murder. But the theory is that he drove her to that. It's like, you know, that he's responsible for her death. He caused her death by suicide. I understand. He drove her based upon what he was doing, how horrible is making her life. He drove her to do that. Right. Which is, we've sort of, we've seen that twice before. We saw it in a case where the girlfriend was texting a boyfriend
who was in a parking lot saying, go ahead, kill yourself, kill yourself. And I thought it was a bridge too far. I've got to remember the name now. Right. Right. Right. Right. I don't remember. Yeah. Yeah. And then even more recently than that, Mark, what did the other case where somebody was charged with that kind of behavior that we've seen him? I know what you're talking about. I can't get names. I know. It'll come. It's all fac sensitive though. It depends upon what they do, right?
So they're, they're, they're pushing Mike's law. Mike's law. And family wants to do something positive. And I admire them for doing that. It's the family's push to make coercive control myself, a crime in South Carolina. I'm on favor that. What do you, what do you think about that?
“So here's the thing. I'm just trying to look up that case that I can't. That name is going”
by, only. So how about doing it after the show? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So here's the thing. There are a
lot of people. I'm not saying to the extent that Mike had, underwent with the, with the pastor, the pastor and air quotes. But you know, I handle a lot of breakups, divorce, people who are never married, splitting up children in the picture. And I got to tell you that story, the story of being coerced. The story of what it's like to be in a relationship with quote unquote, a narcissist, which is a word that gets bandied about very, very frequently in this day and age.
Is real? I have seen it. Again, not to that extent. I don't think I have a client who said that they're X ever, you know, put a gun to their head or made them want to kill themselves. But there is a lot when you live with somebody. And that relationship turns bad and you forget how much you were in love when you had the five hour party and invited 100 of your closest friends. It can turn so ugly that it changes personalities, changes personalities. And you are not the same
“person. I think that you once were, once you have lived in a coercive relationship for a period of”
time. So it's real. And anything that can happen to keep people from hurting themselves or others under the pressure of that kind of stress. We all have stress. I get it. But imagine having the stress from the person you lay your head next to every night. That's a 24/7 stress. So it's a real thing. I just don't know if we can shape the law enough to make sure that we're not catching the dolphin in the tuna net. You can't be arrested because they yell at you over dinner. You know, this is
burn or whatever. Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct. It's a big mound of clay that really needs to be sculpted for it to be effected. Right. How do we word it so that we don't catch, you know, people who are doing, you know, innocuous innocent behavior. Right. All be it annoying, you know, but not necessarily criminal. Well, yes. And speaking of innocuous, I'll be an annoying behavior. I don't know if we have, I don't know if we have time for this because we're going to come
back and we're going to do our off the record ramps and no yours is on Lindsay Clancy. But since we are talking, and mine is going to be on something that happened very serious, although I kind of
Make a funny on the girls trip last weekend.
which will precursor my rant. Can you sit through that mark? It's like, I would love it. If you're
into it, I'm into it. All right. All right. Can we roll the genre side? I don't know a number. I haven't seen this. Very unexpected. Okay. Yeah. This is PG rated, we're okay. Mostly PG. Yeah. Oh my doubt, you serious. Back away to cash in power. Follow me. This is shot while you're on vacation. Yeah,
“shot on a weekend beach trip together. To their surprise and secret, when they walked into their”
1.5 million dollar condo, what did they encounter? They were being on actually surveilled, following up to exhibit. Oh, for owl. This is real mark. Oh, it look good. Yeah. Can you get a close notes in the title for? No. Yes, owl. Yep. Okay. With the big eyes. This is beautiful 1.5 billion dollar condo.
The first thing we saw was this fucking ugly thing. What we're doing in a 1.5 billion dollar condo,
we asked. Billion. Good question. Yeah. So I went down by hitting camera detector that I purchased on the Amazon for 29. 95 and free shipping. Yep. Why? Because I have product. Watch what happened. I can't believe this word. I did watch said owl. This is crazy. What? Okay. That's the
“word. Don't die. Wait, how did it alert you? I didn't. The owl that someone has had to go”
pants on the blue signal. And to her. That's Michelle. She's real into your video. Video the back side is faster. That was a heavy owl too. We swept it in our house with this and lovely. But for something very suspicious in the hallway. The owl was the only illegal unlawful surveillance that we found. We found it on mine. We found that it's sat. Fuck down in the owl. What ugly fucking owl is going to be on sale for a $179. I'll tell you
what kind of ugly owl the kind to her. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's the owl. I'm billion dollar
content. Lesson ladies. You want a girl's trip to a condo on the beach. Don't leave home without one
“of these. And yep. Oh, John. Yeah. Wow. I am blown away. And I got that is so creepy.”
That is very creepy. And I made a joke out of it, but it actually turned out to be real. So that thing went off so that little device I bought on Amazon for 30 bucks. It alerts you to hidden cameras. It alerts you to tracking devices. And if you hang it on a door knob and somebody opens the door, if you set it, it will go off like an alarm. And if you're going to have, especially if you're going to stay in an Airbnb, I'm going to rant about it when we come back. Wow. Don't
go anywhere because Mark and I are going to go off the record. I kind of have a hint of what Mark is going to talk about. You're not going to want to miss it because you're so eloquent Mark. I'm going to drop a couple of F bombs in one or two. But don't go anywhere. We're going to come right back with all of that. Welcome back to Positively Legal. It's that time. We love this time. I get to hear John
a rant. And I'm excited to hear it. John, are you ready? I am ready folks because we just sort of previewed my own quote unquote documentary about something that really happened on a girl's trip this past weekend. And I'm going to tell you more right now. So last week, I told you guys about our girl's beach weekend, including my new ugly bikini, which I dubbed the Granny 3000. Well, turns out the Granny 3000 was the least disturbing thing anybody was going to see last weekend
because we got to our vacation rental. And sitting in the living room is a giant fake life size owl suspicious. I'll say I actually brought a hidden camera detector with me because I'm a lawyer with chronic suspicion, but was hoping it wouldn't be necessary. Good news is, it actually wasn't necessary. I mean, I used it, of course, and it beat like a code blue to confirm my keen bullshit meter was spot on. I mean, come on. Could this thing be more obvious?
Seriously, it stuck out like a sore thumb amid the rest of the decor in this ...
And here's the part I couldn't believe. Half of the group basically shrugged it off.
Ah, it's probably nothing they said. Nothing. There's a giant bird of prey watching us. They're opening wine, and I'm standing there like Aaron Brockovich in a two piece bathing suit.
“Am I the only one concerned about the felonious owl in the room? My bellode?”
Maybe it's because I'm a lawyer, but immediately I'm taking pictures reading the rental agreement and looking up Maryland law. Everybody else? Where should we go for dinner? Me? We need to preserve the evidence. And here's where the creepy owl stopped being funny. There was no disclosure from the
rental company that there was an interior camera. And I promise you, it would have been a hard
pass for me if there were. Maryland law, we were an ocean city, has restrictions on secretly using cameras to observe people inside a private residence. And in this particular device, also has the capability to record audio, which raises an entirely separate set of legal problems under Maryland's wire tap laws. Sidebar, these wire tap laws are pretty similar no matter where you go. Airbnb's and similar companies are all the rage. They have their appeal.
I totally get it, but here's a tip. You won't be allowed to rent it anyone from jail. When I rent your vacation home, I should be able to sit in the living room, have a private conversation walk around on my granny 3000 and gossip about people who aren't there, which, by the way, is roughly 90% of a girl's weekend. But I need to do that without wondering if somebody is watching the owl fans live stream. Technology has made hidden surveillance ridiculously
easy. That doesn't make it okay. Property owners have a right to protect their property. Renters have a right to their privacy. And if you're going to violate mine, at least don't do it with a camera so obvious that it looks like it's about to ask for my driver's license. This thing actually had a motion sensing head that would have had I not busted this caper wide open followed us around the room like a scene out of a fucking turkey movie.
Seriously though, it's not just creepy to hide a camera in your rental property. It's a crime. So yes, I brought a hidden camera detector on vacation. Everybody laughed at me. As it turns out, creepy owl has the right to remain silent. Looks like the last laugh is all mine now. Doesn't it, Mark? Very nice. I cannot believe that that happened to you. I cannot believe. Not making it up. That's happening in an Airbnb. No, I saw the video. And now I am outraged
and certainly paranoid when I go away to an Airbnb. Thank you, John, out for a long time. Yeah, you're so fine. Thank you so much. Okay. And rechargeable. Okay. All right. Here we go. My rant. They say that expectations
“are future resentments. That's why I always keep my expectations low. So I'm not disappointed.”
They don't resent things. I thought I was doing that when it came time for the closings in the Lindsey Clancy case. I guess I wasn't really doing that properly because I had high expectations specifically for the defense lawyers closing. Kevin Readington had wowed me throughout the trial. There were some great moments. I didn't think everything was perfect. I thought maybe his cross examinations went on way too long. It didn't need to be that long. But he had a tremendous
highlight reel. And one thing that you cannot ignore is his passion. He feels so strongly for his client that it's admirable. I teach my law students that you must care for your client more than anyone else in that room or else nobody's expected to care about him or her. In this case, it's almost like he's advocating for his own daughter. And I admire that to some extent, however,
“it affected him. I think in his closing argument. His closing argument was thoroughly and completely”
disorganized. It also went off on rans. It pressed buttons on people that he didn't need to press
specifically this case was always about. Could the Commonwealth, the state, the prosecutors,
prove beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt that she was saying at the time,
That she knew right from wrong, that she could conform her behavior to the law.
on them because the defense raised it. That's how this works in Massachusetts. Not in federal law,
“federal law, the burdens on the defense. And I'm sure they would have lost this case if this was a”
federal matter, but it was in Massachusetts. So this case from the beginning was all about explaining to the jurors that if you're not sure, if some of the state witnesses were compelling and some of the defense witnesses were compelling and you just don't know and how could you know really. These people are not experts in psychology or psychosis. They can't tell which experts
are to be believed. I know that's their job, but ultimately they really can't reasonably discern
which experts to believe. Therefore, the state, the Commonwealth failed to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. That was mentioned to his credit, it was mentioned. But I would have had the jury instructions so blown up, so big that Stevie Wonder could have seen them. It was that important to the case. And he just kind of, yeah, they got the burden they improved and he just went on. Listen, I compliment the guy. He did a phenomenal job advocating
for his client, but he fizzled at the end where it mattered the most. I write my closing first and then everything I do during the trial is so that I can have that moment. He seemed to just let
“it go and she deserved better than that. Now Mark, I love that. I think it's passionate.”
Do you, is that a prediction? Is that a prediction that the defense is not going to the defense is going to lose? No, and let me make this very clear. I don't know that a great closing would have made a difference. I don't know. In fact, my gut would tell me probably not, but still we don't know. She deserved a great closing argument. She just did. Tying everything. Bring up all the facts that help you moments when you read from the prosecutors opening
to one of the defense experts, for example, strike that. One of the states experts. They're rebuttal witnesses and they said, no, I don't agree with that. They were disagreeing with what the prosecutors said in opening. Why aren't you bringing that back and closing? There were so many moments that he could have brought back and brought it all together. It just was frustrating as a trial lawyer as someone who teaches trial advocacy at the law school. It just bothered me. I would have
given a D to one of my students on this candidly in terms of the missed opportunities. Give me an A for
passion, give an A for for zealousness throughout the trial. Just will never know. And I don't
know that it would have made a difference, Janna, to your point. I don't know. And I don't know what the jurors going to do. And if they came around and found or not guilty, I still feel the way that I do. It would be in spite of the closing, not because of it. Yeah. Yep. I agree that that was just a zero point. It was a lackluster closing. You summed it up beautifully. And with that, we're going to have to sum up the show tomorrow. Yes. Just tell me what you're grateful for. It's always
good to do that. I'm grateful that for the first time in the 16 years. I got to stick my toe in the ocean more than my toe. I stepped well, we up to my butt in the ocean. And I was grateful for that. That felt good. And it was it was a nice weekend. And I I share your gratitude that you went on a vacation
that you put yourself first. You got to put your oxygen mask on first so you could be a greater
service to others. And I'm grateful that you did that. You took care of Janna and I'm proud of you for that. I really am. I'm grateful also for my wife, my kids. I'm so blessed. I'm grateful that I'm going to Vienna for a family wedding that I said yes too. So I'll be doing that with my wife over the next few days. A Labor Day weekend. And I'm grateful for you, Janna immensely. I look forward to this show. And I I just love hearing your thoughts. I'm really grateful. Thank you. Well, did you know that?
Did you know that, Mark? Have a wonderful time. Stay safe in your travels. And to our viewers. Thank you, right? Janna and I thank you immensely. We read each of your comments. The good, the bad,
“the ugly. We love to bring 'em on. I read the bad ones like this stuff. That's what they know.”
I know, through your big thick old John glasses. Yeah, I know. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us. We look forward to seeing you in a week from today. Again, thank you so much. We're extremely grateful. I hope you all choose to have a wonderful week. Take care.
