Luigi Mangione Plea Predictions, Nick Reiner Indictment, and Lindsay Clancy Defense Strategy

Mark, let's start with the Luigi Manjiani big news this week. Luigi's attorneys have scheduled kind of a surprise hearing for Friday, which is today for when this comes out.

“What's going to happen in this latest chapter in this saga of a case? What's your guess?”

So given my illustrious history, I need to make several disclosures. Number one, my daughter is a member of the law firm defending Luigi. I count a Mark Agnifalo and Jacob Kaplan as close friends and Karen Agnifalo who is alternatively their co or lead council for Luigi used to work for me and I consider her a friend as well.

I have been placed in a commentator's timeout. Basically they sent me to the corner. They won't return my text. Tenny who didn't even talk to me. So I do what I do best, which is to speculate wildly.

So let me tell you Matt what I think is going on. And what's so great about this speculation is you mentioned when this drops we will already know. So I'll either look for like a profit and I should have gone to the prediction markets or I'll look like the village idiot.

“It's very binary. All of the reports are that there was a letter that was filed on the docket in the southern district saying that there was a conference to be held this morning.”

The speculation is that there is going to be a plea that will be entered. Other people prior to that catching on fire were saying it was scheduling meaning they were going to decide on what they were going to do on the trial date in federal courts for those who are in the weeds. Luigi is being prosecuted both by the feds and by the state the trial date in the state is next month and the feds are right behind it. The speculation is there a plea in the works. And if so, why is it being held up? You want my wild speculation Matt is not based on anything anybody's told me is if there is a plea and they have not normally what you're doing federal court is you file the plea agreement or you notify the clerk that we will bring the sign plea agreement to court.

And the there's entered on the docket will be a change of plea here. My guess is that what the problem is in federal court when you plead even though there is a case that allows for you to

Supreme court case that allows for you to plead because you think it's in your best interest Matt knows this well as people versus west it's the federal version of that.

“There is always a battle especially in that particular district about a factual basis and I think that's probably what's being negotiated if they're talking about it plea and there's a very good reason for that.”

If they have factual basis is you have to arm wrestle with their client is to what he'll say how far he'll go what he'll what he'll admit to. In this case because you've got the tool the two doing prosecutions I would guess that the factual basis dance that they're doing is whether or not it covers a double jeopardy argument when you go back to if you were to enter a plea in federal court. If they cover these state court so that you can renew the motion under once in jeopardy meeting double jeopardy and bar the state from preceding what do you think about that.

That makes the most sense of anything I've heard so far mark and and I've been. I mean, we all saw the clips right after the rest of the feds and the state guys remember that the mayor of New York was there and there was the helicopters and areas walking in instantly made me nervous because this is a really I think this is a very important case in modern America because you got a young man who was apparently overcome by his zeal for whatever the issue is. And our country is filled with those people and he's thrown his life away and he murdered a guy who was the father of two kids and this.

This is as soon as I saw that it's like please don't screw this up guys and and mark I I've had cases and I know you have to where the feds have rolled in and you know right when our case breaks and I've had to I've had to fight them before to keep my own cases.

So the fear here is that the feds are going to cut a deal and the defense team is going to turn right around and say you can't prosecute him in the state anymore.

And that's the danger here and now normally we keep hearing the term double jeopardy generally this wouldn't apply there's I think it's called gamble versus United States that markets familiar with basically says the federal government and the state governments have dual jurisdiction which means they both have jurisdiction over crimes if there's a federal crime that shares elements with the state crime. The the New York state statutes would prevail on any subsequent motion to dismiss the case after a federal plea is entered and I don't mark I don't understand if they do or if they're talking about entering a plea what is their friggin hurry like they've already established the the order here the state is is going first they've got the body.

Why why are they why are they doing this now you know and and I know what I'm trying to do.

“So yeah go ahead listen to this by the state going first I and that's I think what people need to understand that does not bind the feds meaning for anybody who's old enough to remember Rodney King.”

Those officers were acquitted in the state court and then prosecuted subsequently in the federal court as kind of their no good deed goes unpunished the what is happening here if we're reading the tea leaves right is there is a state court.

statute that bars double jeopardy if you can do the factual overlay such that a federal conviction or a quiddle would bar reproscution in the state you want a fun fact map.

a twenty nineteen twenty twenty Paul Manafort who was Trump's campaign manager was convicted in federal court and then prosecuted by Syvance who was the then DA or.

“Manhattan DA in state court a judge dismissed that case on double jeopardy grounds guess who his maniforts the fence lawyer or what what is the defense team was.”

He's the United States attorney general right yes yes tell you got it Todd Blanche and guess who. The assistant the chief assistant DA was on that prosecution that I don't know. Karen Agniffalo lead lawyer for men don't I mean can you just I mean it's almost if you wrote that in one of your books nobody would believe it they would just say come on Murphy go back and rewrite this you can't rewrite this stuff.

“So when I talk about the factual overlay and I'll give you one more story to illustrate this about I don't know eighteen years ago when Alan Jackson of Karen read fame and our friend.”

It was a baby DA or actually I think he was already in major crimes he had a case that I had the defense on call Japanese OJ and this guy came to LA with his wife his wife was killed in little Tokyo and downtown LA went back to Japan was tried for the murder that happened in LA in Japan he was acquitted in Japan. The California authorities wanted him desperately the war was out there they chased them around they could never get him until one day he stepped foot inglom not realizing that it was US territory and they took him into custody.

And then I tried to get him extradited as the DA I raised one same jeopardy because California back then had a statute that was pretty robust and the judge in department 100 he agreed with me said no you can't extradite him on murder he was acquitted once so Jackson this is when I knew Alan had game guess what he does he goes back and he files a conspiracy to commit murder. The judge then has to say which is what I'm sure they're fighting about now the judge says well I can't decide that on the four corners of the information.

I have to do a factual hearing I've got to bring him here and so that gets around the one's in jeopardy so I'm going to wildly speculate that they're negotiating over the factual basis and they want to go in and see what this judge would take as the factual basis for a plea. I mean with those players mark these people have to understand the what what is it's stake right I want to faith that they're not in the process of effing this whole thing up and let me share just a quick story with you mark I think you'll get a kick out of this I had a I had a murder case once where we discovered a body murder happening on a military base.

Anyway he comes to an up to our crime scene mark and we had there was this piece of wood and there was blood on the wood because the guy had dragged he severed the head and he dragged the body parts over this piece of wood and I'm there with my. And I'm there with my with my grizzled detectives from Costa Mesa and everybody's kind of there and these guys that have seen a million homicides he's this guy I guarantee market was probably the first dead body he'd ever seen and if he saw another one it was that is grandma's funeral right he comes in and he's got his dockers on and then there's light cacky pants and he sees this decapitated body and it was a really grizzly scene and he kind of gets a little who's he and he sat down on the closest thing and the crime lab guy comes over to him he's like.

Sir, not a big deal. It's been processed not won't be a problem. It's already been photographed just let you know you're sitting in a puddle of blood that was my experience with the last federal prosecutor that I had to deal with kind of crime scene and then.

I mean and no fault of his own the guy he had no idea of frigging prosecutor murder like that and I had to go I'd a fight.

The feds finally recockers are our former like the day stepped up and I was like this is ridiculous we are doing it but it was it was really scary for well because that was a big case was important there was a lot of broken hearts and that really nice families two victims and you got this guy coming in who.

“You know he well I know he wanted to start convening federal grandjuries and it's like that is a prosecutor's nightmare so for the viewer man they better not screw this thing up I think it's too important it's too important for.”

I think it's a very common sense to kids for the family you know I you know and here's a I would never think there's be a shocking thing to say mark but are some of the comments we get I'm never surprised or at least I'm getting less surprised murder guys especially for an ideological cause is still murder it's bad don't do it it's a terrible idea kids you orphan children like.

What the cause is whether you're on the right or on the left or on your own little special journey killing people is never okay it's never okay and boy oh boy like we we.

We get to walk this whole thing back and I just hope the feds aren't in the process going up mark I think that is the best that is the best prediction of what's happening behind the scenes that I've heard so far and I tried to. I'm trying to keep and keep up with this and as soon as I saw this guy might be taking a plea my my head immediately jumped to where everybody else is like. Double jeopardy New York don't f this up so you're right there they're they're trying to negotiate the language so that.

Judge doesn't dump the state case right and and that because remember there was a and it's been reported wildly the judge in the state court they made previously a.

“Double jeopardy once in jeopardy style motion they they being the defense the judge ruled it was premature and I think that probably is the right ruling he says it's premature meaning there isn't so far a bar to.”

Prosecution but because if the feds took a plea first then there is the argument that that would bar the state prosecution if.

The language of the factual basis because remember he the what he's charged with with Luigi's charged with federally does not overlay the. Legally the legal statutes don't overlay the state legal statutes but if the. Factual basis is encompassing enough on the federal plea then you could make a pretty strong argument that it bars prosecution on the state and then there's all kinds of. Interesting intellectual paths you can go down after that if a judge. Was or if you entered the plea and the judge in the state court said no that doesn't bar it or I can see the argument.

I've had this argument been made they say no you haven't been sentenced the conviction is not final that does not bar a prosecution for double jeopardy purposes you can imagine that.

“You know that might fly in some courts if that's the case then does that allow Luigi to re assert the extreme emotional disturbance argument because remember.”

Our speculation you and I was that as soon as the judge and seal that state court defense the defense in this case in the state with drew that because that would have been basically an admission of guilt in the federal court.

In the things that I speculate gives these prosecutors both state and federal pause take a look at the comments we get take a look at any reporter who is reporting on this.

“There is an overwhelming number of people under the age of 35 at least anecdotally who are supportive.”

Yeah and I mark that one just I can't wrap my head around that I mean we live in a it seems like the world is getting crazier by the day I don't know if it's social media you know I mean. Because you know it just seems to encourage the next person you know and who's next on the list who's next on the kill list is it can be on the on the political left next time is it can be on the right is it can be.

You know some evil corporation I keep hearing that term evil corporate CEO like like this thing was I just nobody wins with this and the the raw raw cheering crowd.

I say you're crazy and be you're encouraging the next young man or young woman to throw their life away because it's like the one thing I do know mark this doesn't end well for Luigi Manch County. Well I haven't looked up it's interstate stocking resulting in death that's the the gist of the federal case right so what how much time is he looking at for that mark I have not looked at those. I think last time I looked at that statute I'm not sure that there's a mandatory minimum on it but it's got a it's got a boatload of time on the top of it but the I think.

“The other thing that you could if you want to speculate you could speculate your honor would you take an open plea.”

If the pro you know that for those who don't know normally 999 times out of 1,000 in federal court you have a plea agreement and you plea and that does I've been around long enough to have watched in the federal system when the guidelines were man I started in a pre guideline phase.

Then it was guidelines are mandatory, sons of guidelines and then it they became advisory and now it's kind of like the guidelines are pretty much where most of the sentences land.

The interesting thing is that rarely will you see an open plea in federal court and you and I see a lot more of open pleas or people versus West style and pleading because I it's in my best interest on the state court side. But potentially they could be saying we're going to go your honor we want to talk to you since there isn't a mandatory minimum and you know the sky is the limit we want to see if you would take an open plea I mean that's perfectly. It isn't common but I've done it myself and so that's yet another possibility as we speculate the fascinating thing about this map is you said when this drops will find out if we're completely wet and it was just hey we're coming in here to continue the the trial date we know you sent out a bunch of jurors summons and now you've got to redo that and we want to warn the clerk of the court that you're all those jury summons that you sent out a word for not.

“But when be the first time I've been wrong.”

But or the last time I will be wrong. I'll bet you're exactly right Mark they're haggling about the language this is the issue that everybody's worried about I don't understand what the. What the hurry is but we will definitely keep everybody up to date as this develops did you notice yesterday. That the DA came out and announced that they had indicted Nick Reiner. I had just heard that before he won on the air, which is also that's an interesting move right yeah and I want to talk about that on the other side of the break.

I'm going to get your feeling because I consider how be valiant who is the DA who I did battle with a Melinda's a friend and I consider you a friend I want to pick your brain on this love it okay so next we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about Nick Reiner and we're going to talk about the latest in the Lindsey Clancy trial also a really interesting case that's preceding before our eyes. So stay tuned. [ Music ] Welcome back to in the well I'm Mark Argus I need my 12 step IA program which is going to be in the rest of that Murphy and now I'm joining him on my friend Matt Murphy.

And I believe he'll be valiant is the prosecutor in that case and in full disclosure I consider he'll be a friend I have not talked to him about this again.

“I keep saying that so that nobody gets hold in the court and threatened with you know violation of some imaginary rule.”

But I have a theory do you want to hear my theory on this is to why they went. But let's give our viewers a little bit of a set up so in the state of California guys you can establish probably cause one of two ways you can you can do a preliminary hearing where you present evidence to a judge. Or in much more rare cases you can go via the grand jury system which has different rules we actually present the case to the grand jury and it's secret so this was a surprise to everybody and maybe in real insiders in LA mark knew this was coming in the office.

I was really surprised by this and with that set up sort of interrupt please take it away.

“That's okay because you will remember because we talked about it like the LADA is coming off of the David prelim.”

And you will also remember that was a I don't know what five day six day prelim in the first three days everybody was about an evidence it's guys going down blah blah blah. Then guess what happened date the second the last day in the last day all the sudden the defense started doing just what I consider to be rudimentary cross examination of the experts it was no longer the character assassination block. And the type kind of turned a little bit people going away in a second what about this what you would call the the loony the loony tunes or whatever else but it turned the tide and I saw I saw it in real time and I said you know I'm not so sure that this goes by way of a prelim and sure enough then there is a hearing that was said I saw this last week for next Monday the 17.

“On Nick Reiner's application to release the funds from his trust not from the inheritance but from the trust and the thinking is that he gets those funds he hires on a Jackson I suspect once again pure speculation but that's what we do best.”

I suspect DA says oh no you think I'm going to have Allen Jackson thrown into this briar patch here for a preliminary hearing to torture me and mind you he just filed Allen just filed a barn burner of emotion. Accusing Hockman of everything in the world on his floor as case I think they said we're not going to let that happen we're going to the grand jury we're going to indict you're not going to get you're not getting out our witnesses and we're certainly not going to let you. And the public understand just how how deep the skies psychosis and mental illness was we're going to just indict it and then we'll kick the came down the road and if Allen comes in Allen can fight on emotion to dismiss a 99 five or stay in motion.

So that's a really interesting thing right because for the viewer one of the one of the big differences between a grand jury and a preliminary hearing is in a preliminary hearing the defense lawyers there the defense lawyer has the right to call and cross examination. And we're going to call and cross examin witnesses and present their own their own case essentially and front of a grand jury there's no defense lawyer there so we have what's called 939.7 and also the Johnson case that require expropriatory evidence to be presented at the grand jury so one of the very first moves here now I'm going to I'm assuming mark that they reach out to the fence and said give us all the Johnson you want I hope they did it the right way there's the the.

The woman that that actually represents the DA the LED is opposite in the grand jury process is I've never met her personally, but she's apparently very very good and she kind of she'll help like coach the the prosecutor through this kind of procedural very important process in front of a grand jury and that I would think mark that would be rule number one is make sure you get every scrap of expropriatory evidence so that we can. So that we can avoid and I'm five to nine five is a challenge make it can I make it more personal for you didn't you just recently when the case precisely because of the LADA tripping falling and hitting themselves in the head.

Yeah, um, impaled himself on those scissors. The conference room court didn't like it Sam Samoda the judge who did a great job finally dismissed it after.

You know, allowing from mars he's law with the with the family and all that, but yeah, so so the moral is it it's a it is.

“It can be a very dangerous road to take if you don't do it right so this is this is interesting I mean also I guess there's some advantage mark that you know as a secret proceeding.”

It's not a media circus you can get your own dive in I mean I think this is I don't know if if they've alleged.

Um, or if the main theory is that this is a first or a second like two seconds. Oh, it's the first they came back they came back with a first with special circumstance lying in wait.

Wow, can you imagine I mean that would have been that would have been fertile ground in fact it reminds me one other case we've talked about Tyler Robinson the defense filed their brief on the preliminary hearing. And interestingly if you read it it's lengthy, but one of the headlines for it is they weren't challenging as much the holding day answer binding over whatever the the no microatures in Utah.

“The substantive offense it was the aggregators and similar that's what they call them there and here it would be the special circumstance and there would have been a battle.”

Unlining and weighted a preliminary hearing on this there would have been a battle by the way. I think uncompetency. I think they they understood that if Alan parachuted in next week that one of the first things he could do that would have halted this. I don't remember what's the state of the law if you declare a doubt as to competency under 1368 does that halt the prosecutors ability to go to the grand jury. But you know that's actually a really interesting question mark. I think it all to everything as soon as they declared doubt.

Right, I think I think when they declared out criminal proceedings are suspended which I would I would think would include grand jury, but that's an issue that I've never encountered before.

So for the viewer for mental health cases in the state of California it's one of the one one of the only procedural moves that the defense has where they can unilaterally it's called declaring a doubt where they come in and say I'm an officer of the court my client is suffering from such severe mental illness. I declare a doubt and their ability to competently assist me in their defense and at least for the preliminary hearing route that immediately it's like the referee blows a whistle. They appoint two doctors and usually the person will be off to patent state mental hospital in southern California for e-vows and it really can come up the gears.

So I mark I'll bet you right and whether or not whether procedurally goes through if you and I don't know the answer to this I bet Allen doesn't either. And but I guarantee he would have he would have walked in you right you would have declared doubt. I declared a doubt immediately it's a time out I mean I I've seen that happen. I remember one case in particular in Pasadena years ago where a lawyer who's now passed away actually the judge was trying to jam him. Right the middle of the you know a full courtroom and lawyer said well you know what you're on her that's fine.

You do what you want to do I'm declaring a doubt as to my client's competency and the judge literally didn't know what to do. I mean just as you said you they try to keep going forward they can't do it they're frozen it's literally like one of those movies where you can just magically stop everything and nobody can move again.

“And that I believe is probably one of the things they were doing and for those who are listening to us.”

And you're saying well what about the you know talking about the merits of the law or talking about did he do it or should he fry or should he not fry or should there be. You see understand something that when you're in a courtroom part of what the lawyers are doing is thinking as if you're in a chess match you were whether you basically whether you object to much in front of a jury whether you don't. You're judge what kind of arguments you make I mean there are there's all kinds of things that I think are the last modes for trial lawyers before AI takes over the law and these are the kinds of things that you have to think about if for instance he gets indicted and he has been indicted and they've added the lying and wait.

And there's some interesting issues there to peel back on.

It's really interesting yeah it is these are chess matches especially at this level with in homicides in particular and. You know it's Nick Riner's going to have access to some of that money and and we probably will see Alan come back in and then man it will be will be off to the races but I really I have a lot more faith as you know in the current administration the day is off something I did in the last one is first getting it right.

“I'm a victim of trauma as he's saying that I was going to say it's you've got a child like 90 that's what I just say you're you're an idea you're an idealist idealist I I think I think there's a lot more darker motivations going on.”

Well what's interesting I will I will say and you agree with me of this because we talked about this repeatedly. They prosecutors duty is different they're ethical obligation is different than the difference lawyer.

Oh it's 100 percent it's a prosecutor's job is to do the right thing it's to do justice your client essentially it's that it's the people of the state of whatever your where every practicing.

Which is at the same time everybody and nobody and your fidelity is always to the truth that's the job of a prosecutor that is there's a great interview with Robert Shapiro after O.J. where where he he he he breaks that down in a very awful way where he's like it is not the job of a criminal defense lawyer to see the truth that is not our job at all our job is to defend our client so it's it's an interesting thing but it it's also a good segue into the cell the one because when we're talking about mental illness.

This, you know, Lindsay Clancy is that is a really really interesting set of facts mark and we both talking about it quite a bit doing a lot of commentary on it. What what what can you tell us what do you think about the state of the defense what we've seen. So we see just prosecution the white bow that everybody's talking about in the prosecutors here take it away for us.

“So you and I were talking with Megan the other day and I think that this is so horribly and Clancy overcharged now I once again for those in the comments.”

This is the most horrific crime to my mind is a parent killing their kids. I mean, parasite which we just left. We're kind of in these family murder block of this discussion, but parasite to me doesn't even rival the killing of the kids. And you're the protector you're there especially the mother. It's just the most horrific thing in the world. However, the idea that you're describing some kind of an irrationality to that when you've got so many missed cues and miss cues committed by the so called mental health system here.

“I think the defense lawyers done an admirable if not a more than that job of highlighting just how ridiculous this was.”

And the cross examination first of that doctor was a tough who.

Yeah, that's right, that she she looks very very young for the position that she that she's in. I have no idea how old she really is, but that's something that that I think the defense lawyer really scores and points on. I read her level of experience in that cross examination and just to go to talk about your point mark regarding the chess game, you know every chess match, you have two equally truly equally matched players right everybody is the same number pieces. And who wins and who loses often boils down to the skill intelligence the strategy employed by by the by the winning player and you have you have moves that that can lose you a chess game just like you have moves that will lose you a jury trial and and when you're talking about.

It's like this the really this is so ghastly this woman murder sort of three kids, you know, and those catch those those photos of those kids mark they really do evoke a lot of emotions. It breaks my heart every time I see them, but that chess match that we were talking about you know I understand the from the prosecutors standpoint, you know, one of the questions you brought up last time we were talking about was who's vindicated here who's vindicated because.

I think from the prosecution standpoint, like Mark, I have no inside baseball on this at all I'm speculating wildly, but I think from their answer to that would be what we're it's for the kids we're doing for the kids and the prosecutors.

We really very committed to it she's wearing a bow like a white bow that matches I guess one of the bows worn by by one of the one of the little kids.

“But I think Mark just from from what I've absorbed on this when when you're talking about a case that could go either way.”

This defense lawyer is really really doing a good job for his client and some of these cross denominations have been biting and for the viewer. The opening statements. The defense lawyer was speaking in low tones with his Massachusetts accent and he if you look closely at those clips he you can see his eyes moving what he's doing is he's looking at the eyes of every single juror as he's speaking. And I mean and that you can tell that guy's done a million trials right Mark and he's it's compelling and he's speaking to them.

What the prosecutor did and I'm I'm not throwing shade here they have a very important job I'm not I don't want to sound. You're low to a second guess a prosecutor like.

“I'll jump on them when I when I think it you know and this is when they think that you know they're you know they're they're prosecutor doing doing more I understand all that.”

So I just don't want to be unfairly critical for with what I'm about to say but Mark.

She was it was a different caliber lawyer from for inter-opening and it was she was relying way too much on her notes. And I used to do training in our internal academy in Orange County after I tried done enough trials they let me which is kind of scary they let me try to teach young prosecutors. And you know if you are reading your notes in an opening statement generally you're going to friggin lose. And and I don't care what the facts are what the statements are like if you're up there unless you have an equally unskilled lawyer as a prosecutor when you stand up and you're reading your notes and opening.

It is it you lose the jury especially when when contrasted with a really experienced fence or who had no notes up there.

And are you going to forget and you know I always like to use PowerPoint work because I could kind of I could I could speak and then I wouldn't forget any the critical facts.

But before PowerPoint I was up there you know and Chris Evans who he was one of my training deputies when I came through and he told us if I catch any of your reading notes. Reading notes during an opening statement I will kick you in the butt myself that's one of my training moments where it's like okay I don't want to be kicked in the butt by this guy. And he's the greatest guy I love Chris and incredibly talented where but that was like when you're taught by people who really know what they're doing.

The notes are verboden you don't use your notes in an opening and you they better not use your notes in closing mark if they are if somebody's at a podium hanging on for dear life reading their notes. Man they're going to lose this case the prosecution and and look maybe that's the right thing maybe she should be going to mental health facility.

“You know I don't know I don't know where this one is going to go but but man I think that defense lawyer has really done a good job representing her.”

So do I love I mean to your point you know there I often had with you know wonderful trial lawyers the argument is the case one or lost with the jury after opening statement after closing. I take the very I think unusual position for a lot of trial lawyers in my position I think the case is one or lost in jury selection. I really think that you can't pass a jury because I take the position look people are there are a product of their upbringing and their nature nurture whatever you want to say but by the time they get into a jury box presumably they've lived on the planet earth for decades and.

Whether it's a four day trial or a 40 day trial I'm not going to change their worldview when I have to have our people who will at least be open or I can they I can arm them with the arguments and the evidence that they need to find for the client. So if that's the case then you're setting the table for them in the opening because you basically already selected the jury this is the first thing they're going to hear about the case and think about when you get told a story think about when you're conversing with somebody think about when you first meet somebody.

One of the things that's most compelling is the first impression and that's your first impression and if you're up there stumbling bumbling reading from notes and you can't barely read as opposed to as you said looking everybody in the eye talking to them.

And if you blow that opportunity I don't know how you get back from it. I don't know how you come back. Yeah. Stay tuned because next Matt and I talk about I'm going to even throw Matt a softball here so we can think about it over the break.

“We're going to talk about a story about in the well and I want him to give me a story about an orange county defense lawyer.”

It can't be martial show because we talked about martial for in the well one of his one of the old time practitioners and one of his favorite stories. Stay tuned. Welcome back to in the well. A little story time Mark. What do you take it away? Okay, so Matt there used to be I told the story about martial showman who was kind of a mentor of mine in Orange County and he was famously the when he was an L. A. With my old man he was the prosecutor on the onion field case in which was later by Joseph Womba the author written about and became a movie and serial and everything else.

“In martial, I've had many a trial with and stories and he's passed on lift right old age into his 90s and I'm going to my favorite lines by Marshall's office managers.”

And I was thinking about Matt, it reminded me Matt because you basically have been trying to take August off when you haven't been as successful as Marshall was with Maxine his wife, but the one of the things that they always said about Marshall when he came back into the office after he'd been away for the month of August is.

We're all a little bit shorter today because Matt Marshall was back and I wonder did you ever try I'd never ask you as you ever try a jury trial with Marshall.

I never tried one with Marshall he was kind of he was kind of too big up there Mark I I did motions against him as a junior law clerk and I did I had a bunch of like minor mismeters not really worth trying with him over the years. So I got to know him very well, but I you know who I did I don't know if you knew my current mark I can share a quick story. Yeah, Mike was a a wonderful guy I did my very first DUI in 1996 against my current and it was the single biggest beat down I've ever received we were talking about skills of lawyers and also like something the mark and I talk about a lot is sort of this dying breed of like

old school criminal defense lawyers that are gentlemen and this my current I was so hopeless mark on my first DUI I look like I'm 12 years old we're trying in front of Margaret Anderson who has passed away but she was so mean to me. In my current in the process of kicking my butt it was the shortest knock guilty it's probably five minutes not knock guilty on a case that I should have won and he's coaching me through it in the judge with yell at me and he came out of the hallway and he's like hey listen you're going to be fine don't worry about her and he's literally coaching me through and he's like.

He can be a real bitter old true she's on harpy don't let that get to you know like keep keep plugging away and we go back in and she yell at me some more and in the process of absolutely destroying me did a great job acquitted his client and I've never forgotten that lesson that you can be you can be a fierce advocate and you can also be a gentleman and a professional and I always really.

I always appreciated that he passed away a couple years ago well more than a couple now of of cancer and it's just a real loss to the world because he was such a good dude.

“And I remember he told me as he's coaching me it was almost like a playing lesson for golf like you're out on the course with a pro.”

He we were talking about Jerry selection I was terrible at Jerry selection my first start. I didn't know what I was doing and he said you know. He goes you're going to reach a point where you're going to get much better at this. He goes and then you're going to want to show off. You know and then you're going to want to then you'll you'll tell a joke that somebody will laugh at and then you'll then you'll want to like really show everybody how good you are he goes and then you reach a point in your career that you just really want to hear what they have to say.

I've never forgotten that and he was a master the guy was and he did everything from death penalty defense he's a great prosecutor for police officer.

And yeah, that judge she was mean as could be to me. I thought I sucked Mark. I thought I was never going to be able to do this. I went back just utterly defeated. It was like a five minute knock guilty. I'd been in my brand new assignment for about 30 seconds. I lost my first case in Harvard court and and he my my opponent gave me the pep talk so yeah wanted to share that he as you were describing it. I was picturing him and it's a great story. I love it. Thanks Matt. I'll see you next week. All right. Thanks Mark.