The Strategy Behind Alex Murdaugh’s New Trial, and BOMBSHELL Theory on Blake Lively’s Lawsuit, with Heather McDonald

Welcome to In The Well. I'm Matt Murphy, former Homicide Prosecutor, and I'm joined by my co-host and friend, Mark Garagos, criminal defense attorney to the stars. Today on the show, we're going to get into the latest

on the Blake Library Justin Beldononi saga with our friend Heather McDonald.

The first mark, let's start with the Alex Murdoch news.

His murder convictions have been overturned. What do you think? Well, this is a perfect example of kind of the problems that swirl around high profile cases.

“For those who don't remember, Alex Murdoch was a very prominent”

South Carolina lawyer who was, I want to say, third or fourth generation in that community, kind of thought of as a pillar of the community. And then he, it became apparent that there was some abeslement of client funds, followed up on the heels of

the death of his wife and son, and he was tried for murder. My friend, as you see there, Dick Carputley in, was one of his co-lead counsel, Dick tried, I thought, a spectacular case. Truth be told, remember talking to Dick when they were

deciding with the hardest decision mat that a defense lawyer ever asked to make, "Do I put my client on the stand?" And as my, I often invoked my father, as he often said, his favorite line, it's a rare case that gets better for the defense

after the prosecution rests. Meaning, if you can't try your case from a defense lawyer within the confines of the prosecution's case and chief, and make your case through cross-examination and,

and basically the opening, then you're somewhat desperate.

Well, he put Murad on, and he, I thought he did pretty well. I really did, but unbeknownst to the defense,

“the court of the court, a woman named, I think, Becky Hill,”

decided she already had a book deal of some kind, that book deal she surmised would be better if he was convicted. She went into the jury room and started badmouthing, if you will, the accused, and he ended up getting convicted.

Now, you would think this is a slam dunk reversal. Well, you know, you haven't been around the criminal court so much, there's nothing as a slam dunk from a reversal when you're dealing in a high-profile case, let alone a high-profile murder case.

The judge did a hearing, and I liked this judge. I don't know about you, Matt. Did you watch much of the trial? I watched a bunch. I did, too, kind of a known-in-onsense old school, one of the senior jurists in the county, and I thought he did, I thought he did a very good job.

I really did, too, and what a tough spot for him to be in. A judge is in their courts if they've been around for a while, a generally bond, and he obviously had affection for her, and so he denies the motion for a new trial. It goes up to the inner media court who then appoints, as I remember,

“correct me if I'm wrong, Matt, but I think they appointed”

the ex-chief justice of their state Supreme Court. That's right. Here you've got a retired Supreme Court just this in that state, above the fray, and she does an evidentiary here, and she makes this off-the-wall findings and ruling that it was incomprehensible to me.

It ends up going to the full court and they reversed, and I don't think a lot of people saw it coming. I, obviously, because of my great deal of affection for Dick was hoping, so I admit that he would prevail, but he's got to be, and I haven't talked to him just texted congratulations.

He's got to have mixed emotions, I hate to speak for him, because having gone through that, and I've been there, where you get it reversed, and you feel great for the client, but you're also kind of angry, and it's Matt, you've been there on the other side, have you not? Oh, yeah, more times than I can count, unfortunately.

And it is, every, I don't know, boss, Mark, you just told us that every jury trial is a controlled train wreck.

Everything always goes wrong, your, your lead detective gets suspended,

for something that's nothing to do with the case. Your main witness gets in a car accident. Yeah, I mean, you've seen this even more than I have. Like, everything is a giant train wreck. And so come on, you're for the prosecution.

Oh, yeah, sometimes.

The prosecution, the prosecutor come up to me sheepishly.

“With some expulatory evidence that they didn't have possession of,”

and then you have to turn it over. And you just see the crest fall and look like, oh my God, this is going to be the worst. Yeah, and the thing is, if you're dealing with the prosecutor, that's, that's ethical and, and a straight shooter, you know right away, that's,

that's somebody who put a report in their, in their binder, and it didn't make it in and you know that it is an innocent mistake. But of course, there's some out there that that will cheat to win, you know, we're going to do a second on the other side of LA, that not not a deputy DNA, but a special prosecutor.

Let me ask you this about, and I don't want you to give away any competences. So don't, don't, you know, don't answer if you think it's bad. But when you talk about guys like Murdoch, right? So he, he's separately convicted of all of these fraud and, you know, these,

“he's got, I think a 40-year federal sentence and a separate consecutive 27-year state sentence.”

So he's probably never getting out, even regardless of what happens on the murder.

But how much do you think a guy like that, you've represented a bunch of these high-profile guys that are used to the world kind of falling at their feet if they make their way through life, and their currency is kind of that fast talk, manipulation, sort of the fraudster type personality that I've encountered a little bit in private practice. Like they're all slick, they've all got a story.

You know, I think that for some of those guys, they really, they will fight with their lawyer and go against their lawyer's better advice and insist on taking the stand, right? So how much of that, do you think might have happened in this case again? If I'm giving it anyway, a way any confidence is, what do you think here? So I have this story and stop me if I've already told you.

“But I tried a case many years ago and the, I thought it was about as good a defense to my point.”

I tried the defense within the murder case, within the prosecution's case and chief. And in my humble opinion, one of my top 10 kind of things just fell into place. And we got to the point where the prosecution rested. And the last witness had been speaking of train wrecks. It was a train wreck of epic proportion for the prosecution.

So we ended on a high note. They had brought this person in, they thought this person was going to testify to one thing. By the time we got done with Cross, it was a disaster, he was a smart ass old thing. I turned to my client and said, you know, this is, we couldn't end any better. He said, I'm taking the stand and I said, no, you're not taking the stand.

I mean, I know it's your decision, but no, and we thought about it. And I got so upset that I marched him into chambers and I told the judge, it's part day, this was over my dead body, pun intended, objection. I could not turn out well, blah, blah, blah. And the judge did what he did, because it's one of the two decisions that a client holds

that the lawyer cannot overrule, that one is the right to testify. So we testified, I wouldn't take it. I let one of my associates take him and you know, two was credit, the first day he did great. By the time the DA got done with him on the second day, he was starting to wobble, but the DA did what you guys sometimes do. He went into the North Carolina folklore press and he just kind of

ran out the clock on a Friday, came back Monday and it was over. And so one of these shows, date line or 2020 or somebody did an episode on it. And the episode became an interview, the centerpiece with the form of the jury and the form of the jury set up,

we were never going to convict until he took the stand. And the famous last words of the client

to me is, I don't want to end up like O.J. So right after that trial and that episode airs, I fly to Vegas and I have my Tyson who was a client then picked me up in the car from the airport to take me to wherever Mike and I were going for some legal thing. Mike Tyson had just seen that episode. And Mike Tyson did 20 minutes. And this is before his one-man routine or one-man show or any of that stuff. He and Kiki are in the car as white. And he did the funniest 20 minutes

about I don't want to end up like O.J. On somebody being in prison because they insisted on taking the stand that I've ever heard. If he could have, if he can recreate that, he'd never

in a concrete box and you're taken to court and you're fed a baloney sandwich at lunch and you

“have to get no sleep and you're just, and you're going to match with some prosecutor”

who's well-rested has had, you know, a wonderful state dinner the night before and is going to do it makes those sense. Yeah, I can't tell you how many cases I had Mark where I was struggling when we rested and that, and that defendant hits the stand and it changes, it's like a whole new trial changes, everything. So I just probably say full disclosure, I know creating waters. He was

the special prosecutor in that. I've always really liked him. I was probably sending him a text

the same time you're texting your buddy. By the way, he was taken the victory lap when he was playing in his band afterwards, wasn't he? Oh yeah, he's an interesting guy, but he's also, he's one of those career prosecutors. He's the real deal and, you know, I decided to sign an interview with him on

“ABC, my side-side gig and with George Stephanopoulos and Criton was all pro. He just said up and said”

the easiest thing to do here is just retie it, which is a golf analogy, retie it, and go again, and they're going to, they're going to do it again, and you know, that cross examination of course for the viewers, the Supreme Court of Georgia reverse, of course, for misconduct with the clerk and they also, they took a couple of little, like, chopped some of the, some of the edges off, some of the, some of the motive, the motive, evidence, considering the fraud, they said a little too much

that came in, but that, his testimony is fair game for trial number two, and, you know, they're going to, when you got a professional prosecutor, you can be able to parse that out. My guess is he does not testify in the second trial, because I just think there's too much material there, any, get anything wrong, even if you use a different, a different word to describe the same thing, prosecutor like Criton Waters is going to be in his dish, putting it out, this would be interesting to

watch. It's got, like, a video depot too, I mean, yeah, no, that's right, the whole thing. Yeah, I show clips that, yeah, because I've had this argument, you find, and I've asked you this

before, and I don't remember for his honor off camera, for those who, when I, I always say that, because

bad, like, we tell what, nothing but war stories, what you get here is how we actually talk normally, in terms of telling stories, you like retriles more or less. Oh, God, so one of the, I, there's an expression, no, I hate retriles, trying a case for a second time, it's like putting on a wet bathing suit, trying a case for a third time, it's like putting on a wet sandy bathing suit. And that's the way, that's the way I feel about it. They're just retriles for brutal.

I, there are prosecutors who love the retriles, and I always think that a good prosecutor

“does not, and I will tell you why, because the, I think it gives the, a, a competent defense lawyer”

can use a retrial to their advantage every single time. First of all, it telegraphs to the jury,

the, the prior jury could make a decision, there's something here, don't you just think this is a slam dunk? Oh, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I, I hate retrile cases, I hate trying cases, even if I'm the, if it's my first, for cases that were tried by somebody else that came back and got reversed, even those are kind of brutal, because it's just, it, it feels like it's twice as much work, but you know what, I bet it's got some interesting opinions on all of this,

is our friend, Heather McDonald, so everybody please stay tuned. Welcome back to In The Well, and welcome, Heather McDonald, and let me give you a little bit behind the scenes. When we were taping this, I had, I had actually said I'm going to call Dick Carpuglian, who just got the Murdoch case reverse that the South Carolina Supreme Court, and Matt reminded me that we had Heather, and I said, I forget, forget her, Pupian, I want to hear

Heather on Valdoni and lively, and the, the competing declarations of victory. That, that floats my boat more, so the nerd lawyer and me wants to get your take on this either, because there's nobody with a better take in the world on the celebrity justice than you, so you tell me and welcome back. Well, thank you for having me, you know, I've covered this whole thing from the beginning, and at

and after it, it came out, there were these stories, you know, of how why he wasn't on the red carpet,

and nobody really cared. And then I noticed that there were TikToks and things of people saying, oh, Blake Lively was rude to them. I was her makeup artist, and she didn't invite me over for Easter, and like these crazy, like stories. And so then when she came forth and said, they did a smear campaign against me, I kind of was like, yeah, I know how that can happen. I know how bots work and how you can have multiple bots fighting with each other to make a story and how you

can send stories to bloggers and people to then make it a bigger talking point. But then when I

read more about the, you know, the accusation she was saying that he sexually harassed her and things,

and then people looking at the actual raw footage, I did not believe that. I did not, I did not believe that there was a real thing there. What I think happened was, she is who she is, and she wanted a bigger role in producing the film and everything. But I also think that she, like any mother, who's pushing 40 with four kids at home, wanted to have a workplace crush, okay? And I think she's pretty excited to kiss someone other than her husband,

and I thought they did have good chemistry. I saw the movie. I thought they were kind of hot together. And thank you. God, you can say that, because if later I said that, we would be drummed off the air.

“It'd be canceled. Yes. Exactly. And so I think it's true. It's true, right?”

Yeah. I think she was kind of flirting with him and he was not reciprocating. And then I think something happened. It's all by speculation between she and Ryan, where either he saw the kind of member that sexy voice. I don't know if you remember this part, but there was this voice male that he sent to her. That was innocuous, but he sounded so sexy on it. And it was like, hey, I just think the way you fix the script is great. I'm so glad that it's great conversation.

And I just don't know if he saw the text messages, if he got jealous, and then she took calm him down and calm his ego down was like, oh my God, he, you know, Justin Belldoney is such a creep. He's been hitting on me and this and that. And then Ryan, with his own insecurities, that's when Ryan went after him and made a mockery of him in the, what is that thing that he's in? The deadpool kind of created this like,

obvious parody character of Deadpool and all that. And then they were into this huge trial. I mean, trial to be, you know, really going against each other. And the lesson to be learned

“is just what your phone is. But your wife had me a fair. No, I think there's a couple of lessons”

that I could learn off of this. I mean, the lesson is she, once they were done with the movie, she should have just shut up about it. And even if there were a couple of mean TikToks about her being a bitch, who cares? Like, you know, but when it's happening to you and we've all had online things happen, you know, it does seem like the whole world believes this thing that's not true about you.

And then you get your husband who's this powerful Hollywood person and you get kind of

riled up and somewhere between them and their attorneys, they got riled up and they, they said, let's go for this. And they brought out the first complaint. And I, I think that was just the biggest mistake. I think she should have just, nobody, once all this came out, the movie had already come out was already streaming. It was over with. Now, some people think the whole point is she brought this out because she wanted the sequel of the movie. Maybe she did, obviously none of this was worth it.

“And I think if she could take a time machine, she would have just put her phone down and gone to”

cobble and find, you know, find another great project, come out with something really good, you know, six months later, and nobody would have cared about it. But I think they both, their reputations both are, are going to suffer. And Ryan, all three of them. I don't think, I think Justin Bell Doney, some people love him. But I also think we found all this information about him, too, that it was kind of like, you are kind of an annoying man bun wearing, like,

a sexual harasser. And I don't blame him for defending himself legally. Have you seen some of

“those dailies, Heather, with a show like in a dance scene? Okay. And she may be the world's”

greatest actress. And I, you know, I support victims. But she looks so into it. And I, you're the first

person I've heard articulate that theory. All the comments are good theory. Have you been talking about this on your show? Because I, yeah, go ahead. I'm just going to say, I haven't heard this yet. It's the first one that really resonates with me that I, that I just says, wow, this really makes sense in terms of everything that unfolded. Yeah. I mean, the dailies that he put out, you know, really showed that he was not doing anything wrong. You know, she's like, sorry about my spray tail. And he's like,

no, it smells good. But written out, within the complaint, it looked like, no, you smell good. Like,

let me smell, let me smell it one more time. It was like, he was just trying to be like, don't

be insecure about it. You smell good. It's fine. You know, like, it was not that. And then there was this other daily where they're at the hospital. And because he was playing a doctor. And she goes and gives

“him this kiss that was not in the script. And he's like, take it back. Hi, I'm so sorry. Wait, what are you?”

No, I just, you just, you forgot this. Wait, what? No, babe, this isn't mine. I know. I know, I, I happen to love you too. All right, cut. It was, you know, so that was done with an intimacy coordinator. You know, I was her making a sexual move on hand that was not planned out. So I thought that was really bad. The other thing as a woman that I thought was kind of funny now that it's all over with

is they got so upset that he asked her trainer or asked a trainer or somebody. How much does she weigh? Because there's a scene, which by the way, people only do this in movies, okay, where they like screw on like a countertop, okay? I don't know. And he picks her up to put her on the countertop to like make out with it there. When they could just make out standing up, okay? But that is sexy for us to watch at home. So he's like, I don't want to throw it my back and I just want to like prep.

You're like, is she 128 or is she 145? For women, it's really hard to tell. Like, someone could be a size 6 and be 125 and someone could be boy, size 6 and be 155 and they both look

“great. Muscle is have, you know, muscle ways. So I think he was just clearly asking. But a woman”

with weight and she just had her fourth baby and I understand that could have been stressful for her. But that was totally blown out of proportion. Like he asked, he didn't ask her. He asked somebody else and got back to her and that just like infuriated them. And there were so many like crazy things that then, you know, would come out with people like, oh, and all her weird clothes. I mean, the mood itself. She's supposed to be of a girl, open your own flower shop.

And she's wearing like $2,000 boots under like a dress to go pick flower. I mean, nothing made sense. Like it was just she just wanted to like look cute or look weird. She was in charge of her clothing. There were a lot of things that were really strange about it. Now looking back at it. Didn't, didn't her team try to destroy the daily's too. Wasn't that, did I read that that they actually tried to have Sony get rid of all of the daily's and then they

learned that Baldoni had his own set. I don't know that they tried to destroy it. But I did think when I saw the daily's, I was like, well, it's, it's his production company way fair. So I'm like, why wouldn't you think that we would have that, you know? And then I also thought it was interesting that there was a couple co-stars and stuff that really stayed silent, you know, where they, which I don't blame them for staying silent because you're like, I don't want to, you know,

ostracized one whole side of someone that might give me a job later. So we never really knew

how Jenny Slate felt who played his sister. She didn't defend him, you know, but she seemed to stay good with Blake. So you're like, was he a creep on set? But I don't think so. And then, you know,

her come over and hang out. And I'm like, yeah, I think at that point, she was trying to collect her team so that they would be on her side, you know? You know, it's so funny about the way you come at this and you give, you actually give the motive and it makes so much more sense because when I was looking at it, I was framing it in terms of what, when she won the motion originally, not the most recent one where a case was gutted. But the other one where his balcony stuff was thrown out,

Matt and I had talked and we said, boy, if you're the lawyer at that point, you know that this has been a disaster, you've got to leave a win just to clear victory and get the hell out at that point. And I just, what, what, what's your analysis as to why she didn't do that? I mean,

“wouldn't that have been the time to have kind of just declared victory and get out of this thing?”

I mean, I guess you'd have to, you know, say, did the lawyer recommend that and she was like, no, so what happened? Okay, so so I, so she had a point where she could get out earlier, but didn't, but then why did they decide now to get out? That's a funny question. I have a theory on this too. My theory and you see Matt smiling, it's a very, I, I complicated theory, but originally, Justin's counter claim. She soon, he counters, judge fast forward, throws out the counter claims.

She then has the Justin then has the ability to move to dismiss her original complaint.

Judge grants 10 of 13 of that. Basically, guts her case. In that order, he lays out in my opinion,

all of the missteps by her lawyers. Makes it, I mean, there's, if I'm the lawyer who's defending her, I'm not going to like that order. And on the heels of that, they call up immediately if you believe what's being reported. They call up Brian Friedman is representing Bell Doney and say, we need to get into private mediation immediately. Private mediation immediately. Now you'd say, well, what significance does that have? There's a California Supreme Court case that says,

if you settle your case at a private mediation, the lawyers cannot get sued for malpractice,

“and I think that's what was behind it. The lawyers brought in another offer. They get to”

private mediation. They have the best mediator on the planet doing the mediation, and they get insulated from a malpractice suit. And it was not insignificant amount of money.

If you believe the reports, she spent upwards of $30 or $40 million on legal fees. That's just,

oh, yeah, legal fees, which is crazy. On a case that to your point, we were having the argument the other day. What's worse, Barbara Streisand Amber heard or Blake Lively? I mean, if you're going to rank them, the Streisand effect, I think that was the lively effect. Can you remind us again, what the Streisand effect is? It was that somebody accused you of something, and can you say it? Yeah, she wanted to fight her on some property thing that she had a deal.

“She had in Malibu. She ended up suing and it took, because she didn't like what was being said,”

and it took out a life of its own and really kind of became a, by comparison, lively. It was nothing, but it amplified it exponentially, and became known as the Streisand effect. For years, I would tell clients when they come in and want to sue. I'd say, this is the dumbest thing in the world. Just put your head down for 96 hours. Somebody else is going to do something more stupid, and they'll forget about you. But no, if you've got a big firm and you've got to generate buildings,

you'll take the client, you'll tell the client, you'll whip them up. It's kind of the family-long reco-action, where the lawyers and family law heat up both sides. They take all the liquidity out of the community, and then when everybody has no more money to pay, then they tell you to settle on the

same terms that you could have settled on in the first place. Yeah, I mean, I didn't think that they got

with lawyers who did royal them up, or representation, or whatever, because again, yeah, so what that some people said you were a bit too difficult to work with. You've been on a bunch of things, just be a delight on the next show, and they'll forget about it. I don't know. Yeah, agree with you. Of course, let's roll them up. Let's make a bigger deal out of it.

their case, you wouldn't even have to go away for six months, just go away for like three weeks, like just go on a vacation, put your phone away, don't look at it, and you know what I'm really... Master, the guy who has, whether you love him or hate him, Donald Trump understands that in a way that nobody understands. He doesn't. Whatever he does, he knows,

always got to do his troll something else, or create another controversy, and the last one is already

yesterday's news and a matter of minutes. And he has exhibit A of crisis management, because all you got to do is just wait it out into your point, then now it's at a point where it's... I'm probably old school by saying 96 hours, right? Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, Mark and I have been, we've been scratching our heads from a purely legal analysis. Heather, we've been trying to figure out, like, what, and God's name, or they think, and because there's so many offerings she could have taken,

“and that's why your comments are so interesting right now, at least for me, because that's sort of”

interpersonal relationship thing where emotions are involved, and all of a sudden now you're making

really bad strategic decisions, which is basically the job of a good lawyer to get their clients

out of that headspace and try to see things objectively. I mean, that's why we bring lawyers in to, when we're emotional and we're not thinking right, and to make those strategic decisions for us. I mean, that's why Mark makes the big bucks. But another thing Mark and I were kind of laughing about, if you laughings not the right word, I was laughing. When you get into these text messages and you see these famous glamorous people, it is fascinating to me how small they really are,

how petty and just eighth grade dumb they really come off. And my thought is somebody finally got to her and said, you're getting killed in read the comments section, you're getting killed in this.

It only gets worse from here. Your husband is starting to suffer. His reputation is starting to take

ahead, and as well, everybody that's signed up with them, even Taylor Swift was getting some grief for a little while on this. So I don't know. I don't know what happened behind the scenes,

“but I think I think this is one move to dump it. Definitely before it was dubbed too, I was like,”

God, I don't even know how she's getting to get out of this except if she and Ryan were to break up. And then, and who knows, hopefully they'll stay together till they're 100 and die, but if they do ever break up, I'm sure in her memoir or whatever, she will put the blame on him. Like that he was jealous or that he wanted her to do that, or vice versa, or he will put the blame on her, you know, something. But it looks like they're together, you know, she went to the Metball

and looked beautiful and then they like posted some fun photos. And I mean, I don't think if they continue to deadpool, I don't think a 15 year old boy cares or knows what is going on. If they do another deadpool, those kids will go see it. And even with her, if she isn't something juicy, you know, like, you know, some, the cold kidman movie about killing your husband and your rich, and you live by the sea, everyone will watch it. She just has to be in something good again

that she's, and I do think she can be a good actress. So there's some, there's this one viral video of her from the town, which you know, was like 15 years ago. But her boss in accent is so bad and she's supposed to be playing a drug addict, and it's like, everyone has clipped it, and it's gone wild, which is like, you're the crime stopper. Why do you go figure it out? Like, it's so bad.

“You're a crime stopper, figure it the fuck out. But I think she's trying to bang John,”

John Hammond that scene, probably that at the bar, or she's like hitting on John Hamm the FBI agent. She looked pretty good. I'll say that. I'm proud of that. She looks good. There's rumors that she hadn't affair with been aflact during that time when he was with Jennifer Gardner, and she was kind of miscast in that, you know, like her look and everything in her age. But I do think she can be a good actress, which she's put in a part that's believable for her. And so she will get some like limited

Netflix series about based on some book, about three women that want to kill each other's husbands or something in Moro Bay. And it'll be a hit, and we, and I will watch it. Wow, Heather, I do you, you in a matter that you are so persuasive. If you had asked me before I heard that, I would have said she's not coming back from this. I now convinced you,

Right. I thought I thought she was done. I thought you was not good. Me and girl, but you just persuaded me to, you're right, a little bit of time's going to go by. Other things are going to happen. There's going to be another scandal. And then she's going to pop up in a Netflix series because she's a, she's a familiar face. And people go, yeah, what was that whole thing with that Justin guy and everybody beyond the next thing? Hey, Heather, this works.

You may have a second career as in crisis management. So, you know, okay, keep that in mind.

We're celebrity therapist, Heather McDonald's celebrity therapist slash publicist. I mean, I'll do it all for free. I do fancy myself as a real housewife consultant. I'd like to help those women, you know, get a little business going, handle things, make the most out of this short-lived career. But, um, yeah, the crisis management could be fun too. So, let me know if you ever need something to help. Mark, like when someone

made comes in your office. I have you drive down into the office again and counsel some people.

“I love it. Yeah. Thank you, Heather. Where could work, where can we find you next?”

So, my podcast is, well, my podcast is every Tuesday and Thursday, which is Tuesday,

scoop, which is Buddy and Pop culture. Every Wednesday is juicy crimes. And my next one next Wednesday will have this darling boy named Matt Murphy. He is my guest. We already recorded it. And we get into topics about when the parent is found responsible for their teenage criminal child, which I think is a very interesting topic that we're seeing a lot of. So, that's it. So, check me out. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much, you guys.

Thanks, Heather. Next up an old tale from inside the well. I don't know that there are really

old tales from inside the well because if you go into the well, you could be shot or

Matt will tell you how you could, the sort of comatry, but stay tuned and we'll talk about it. Welcome back to In the Well. It's time to honor the story from our past. Mark, why don't you take it away? Okay. I don't know that we're going to tell a story from the past because there's a really fun story. I should say fun. The people involved don't think it's fun. But you'll

“remember Matt, the Eric Swallwell story, where basically his gubernatorial hopes just imploded.”

And his Swallwell then had his lawyer go on to CNN. And his lawyer talked about, it was a performance that less than what you would program, I guess. It turned out that it wasn't really his lawyer, but it was a lawyer that one of his benefactors, a guy by the name of Klubak, who was a former gubernatorial nominee himself who would pull out and had provided for him. And Swallwell was apparently, if you believe the reports, living with this guy, Klubak in his mansion and Klubak

kicked him out. And somebody stuck a microphone in Klubak's face and said, "What happened with you in Swallwell?" And he famously said, "He busted the trust. You ever heard the term "bust the trust." And so, my joy may have lifted that expression and used it on people I know. You busted the trust.

“Anyway, he got busted himself. Do you see this, Matt?”

No. Klubak was arrested. Apparently, yesterday, day before yesterday this week. And for a case where he is accused, my new, he's presumed innocent. But he was accused of intimidating a witness involving his fiance, who was already being prosecuted by Nathan Otkman in the Diaz office. So, it turns out, fun facts, because LA is such a small place, that the lawyer that he had for Swallwell was a young lawyer who is at a firm, Patty Glazer's firm in Century City.

You know Patty Glazer, I'm sure. Patty's one of the great lawyers in Southern California. Well, so that was what a Klubak's lawyers. So, Klubak then in the paperwork or the news that's being reported yesterday, guess who Klubak's lawyer also is on the criminal case, none other than

Nate Hockman. And so then there's reports out there that wait a second, how is David Hockman

going to represent Klubak when Nathan Hockman is prosecuted, presumably going to make the charging decision and is already quoted in the case against his, the Klubak's fiance. It's been quite a little story, at least it was in LA, but it's now gone kind of national as we're taping this. And that's, if you ever had, because I'm old enough to remember the Avazian brothers, who when one of them was a line deputy, the other was in defense, and they

actually tried a case against each other. You ever had that experience? Yeah, and this fact actually goes into in the well, because one of the homicide detectives I had a case with Enquist in LA was also had a brother in Orange County who was a judge. Marty, Marty, who you and I appeared in

“front of Marty was great. Also, also retired cop. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know, it's, uh, I think”

that would be a waveable conflict, I think, right? Like the, like the defendant could wave the conflict between his lawyer and the D.A., and I guess all I would have to worry about would be

reduced in property, right? Well, I think the problem is, you know, we've got a code

section 1424 in the penal code in California, as you know, you've been on the receiving end, I've been on the giving end on many indications. And I don't know that you could wave the conflict, unless you waved your right to refuse the D.A. at the same time. I think that's where the ethical conundrum would be, but it's a fascinating kind of scandal-tinged, uh, three degrees of separation in LA story. Yeah, you talk about a fall from grace, that, that, uh, swallow a case is

something else. Um, you know, I, you know, working in Orange County, you see sort of the other side, you see the, the, the really central public inside, in LA that you've got, you've got those democratic politics, and that's one of the things that I, I really like about what we do mark.

“Especially this, the true crime stuff, is it really kind of transcends the nastiness?”

It's a bunch of people on both sides of the aisle, and you've got good and bad, and like I've no idea what Blake Lowe's politics are, but it's fun to talk about with Heather McDonald. I have no idea that Heather McDonald's politics are either, but it's, it rises above all that nonsense. It's, it's human relationships, and, and it's most basic way that I think, you know, we're probably way too optimistic sort of way. I think that the true crime world that we're kind of a part of now, um,

is a, is a, is a place, maybe it's going to sound like an overdone word, but it, maybe that can mean a little bit of a national healing there, because I think people that are on, have different political views can come together and agree, like you got a bad guy and a good guy a lot of times in these cases, and, um, yeah, it's kind of, it's one of the things I really enjoy about it. I couldn't agree more. It's one of the reasons I, I used to get frustrated in the 90s,

because it became kind of political, you know, was the law and order, be a kind of, was a province of the Republicans, soft on crime, Democrats. I know that there's a lot who would argue were

“the 90s or back again now, but I think you're right, at a certain level, true crime does”

transcendent. Well, Judge Greg Jones, who's one of the, one of the best judges I've ever appeared in front of, um, Orange County, former public defender, just a great dude. He had a saying,

he said, prosecutorial power and politics or always a toxic cocktail, and I, it's so beautifully

put in any, he's exactly right. I couldn't agree more. Um, all right. So thanks for, I guess, Heather McDonald, and thanks to you for tuning in for in the well. Remember, new episodes drop every Friday. Uh, this is a lot of fun for Mark and I, the show is doing very well. So I was saying to say thanks to thanks to the audience. I don't think anybody expected it to do as well as it's doing. Thank you. No, at least about that. Nice. So, uh, it's, it's been off the chart so far. So, thank

you so much for your support. Um, as long as you guys watch, they're going to keep letting Mark and I do this and it's fun for us because he's going to be the conversations. We would be having about these cases anyways. So anyway, exactly. Yeah, it's awesome to have, uh, everybody listening in and you get to be a fly on the wall. And also you can find me at Matt, Matt Murphy law, uh, on Instagram. And, uh, you can follow us both on social media and hopefully, um, keep turning in.

Hope it was fun and more comes. Like, someday you actually get on social media. I don't think you really are, Matt. You're kind of the one of those reclusive. I don't do social media in times.

And I have times Mark where I have turned into a 13-year-old girl. I'll have like,

“I'll have like three weeks in a row where I'm so in Instagram that it's actually distracting”

you all the work I have to do. And then you're right. I need to get way better. I just do it all myself.

So I, I probably need you to get somebody to help me with it. Thanks, Matt. Good see you next week. Yep. Can't wait.