The Voice in Lindsay Clancy’s Head, Bryan Kohberger’s Mental Report, and Microsoft Exec Murder-for-Hire Trial, with Chloe Castro

senator and state attorney for Palm Beach County and current managing partner of Dave Aaron

“burg Law. I'm joined today by my co-host Ashley Merchant formerly of the great state of Florida”

but now hailing from Atlanta, GA where she's a tough like criminal defense lawyer, hello Ashley. Hey Dave, how are you? It's good to see you. Let's talk about what we got on the doc at today. We'll get started with the latest news out of Lindsey Clancy's trial, including the testimony of psychologist Dr. Paul Zaisel who prosecutors have suggested influenced Lindsey's account of the tragedy. Interesting, and we have a few updates at

discuss in the Brian co-worker story. Why won't he just go away? Oh my gosh, right here. Right, so he won't. No, social path. He, we have newly unsealed record showing his mental health diagnosis and a possible explanation for the timing of his petition to withdraw his guilty plea. And later Florida attorney Chloe Castro returns to the show to discuss the ongoing Mario Fernandez murder for higher trial out of Duval County, Florida. Fernandez is accused of

first-degree murder and solicitation to commit a capital felony in the shooting death of his ex-wife's

ex husband Jared Bright again. Dave, let's get started with Lindsey Clancy. We're in week four of the trial. The defense has started presenting their case this week and it has been explosive. It's been crazy. We've been hearing from a lot of different people who, you know, have talked about Lindsey's mental state. We've heard from some doctors, some treating doctors, some expert doctors, and today court ended a little bit early. We understand it was maybe a scheduling issue and that's

pretty typical in cases. You know, when the defense has different witnesses, they don't know exactly how long cross-examination will take. So a lot of times courts will end early for the day if the next witness perhaps isn't ready or perhaps that witness is going to take a long time. They'll want to start fresh the next day. So I don't think it's really anything too sinister, anything to really worry about. But what did you think about the testimony so far? How do you think

the defense is doing proving their case that Lindsey was actually in saying at the time?

“I think they're doing quite well. I mean, I think a key part of it is to show that people who have”

this type of disorder, the psychosis can be lucid at times. And that solves the great question of, well, if she was under the influence of these drugs and had psychosis, then how could she calmly plan this whole thing? Well, can she send her husband off to errands and be so calm and in control? Well, that's because you can be lucid while you are in the throes of psychosis. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. And the defense is going there and they've got this

this great doctor doctor. Zyzo, which reminds me of some nasal medication, I think that they, I don't know, they're not sponsored of the show yet, but hey, Zyzo, they should be. They should be, right? We're saying the name enough. Now, the prosecution, though, they were, they were grilling them. This, actually, this, they, they had Condy on this. This is Dr. Condy. Yeah. So, okay. So, Dr. Condy, who's board certified an adolescent psychiatry,

he was on the stand and the, the prosecution asked the doc about the fact that Lindsey Clancy didn't claim to hear voices until the day of the murder. Let's, let's play Saw one. As far as, um, your conversations about hallucinations and auditory hallucinations,

“you indicated that at some point, or at points, I think, was your testimony that, um,”

the defendant did her a voice. But you're aware that she never reported to Jennifer Tuff's

that she heard a voice. She did not. She never reported to Rebecca Jolada that she heard a voice, did she? She did not. She never reported to Lity, should do because that she heard a voice. She did not. And the only time she's ever said that she heard this voice was on January 24th of 2023. Is that fair to say? Correct. Thank you. The phone for that.

Good for you. Yeah. I feel like the prosecution definitely felt like they had a win there. And it does appear like a win. But I'm hoping that the defense will really bring this home and closing arguments. And this is one of the times that it, it always sinks that you can't get up there and argue after a witness. We let me put that in context as I'm listening to this and thinking, you know, so the reports. And this doctor, he's not a treating physician. He is an expert.

So he's reviewed the reports. He's never met Lindsay in person. You know, he didn't take these notes.

So he's basing his opinion on what either the doctor asked Lindsay and she answered or what Lindsay volunteered. And when you go to a doctor, and this is what I would do if I was the defense lawyer, I would try to explain it as when you go to a doctor. And I would use the example personally

take kids or elderly people to the doctor. My mom might be telling me, you know, something hurts.

“Something hurts. Something hurts. We get to the doctor and the doctor is like, oh, how do you feel?”

I feel great. After I leave the doctor, I'm like, mom, you have literally complained for a week about something hurting. Why did you tell the doctor? And she says, well, when he's to me, if it hurt, I actually felt fine. And I'm like, but just because you took time all this morning, he's like, well, he didn't ask me if it hurt yesterday. He asked me for it today. So, you know, there's different ways that you can ask. And also, a lot of times, people don't volunteer information. So, maybe Lindsay

wasn't sure if she had voices in her head. She's also mentally ill. She's probably not the best historian of this. So, while I think the prosecution really thought, yes, slam dunk. You know, she only reported it once. I think it could be easily explained in Kevin Reddington's a really good attorney. So, I'm hoping, you know, at the end of the day, he sort of ties that together for the jury. What about the other defense witness? So, Dr. Zizal, who says that Lindsay told him that she had been

hearing voices and experiencing other symptoms consistent with psychosis. So, now the question is, this was before. This wasn't just that day, right? Dr. Zizal thought gave the defense what they were looking for. And in fact, he talked about how Lindsay called Patrick and claimed that she heard a male voice, which is kind of spooky. In fact, let's play that sought, too. Tell us what she said to Patrick in your presence on Steve Ophong, if that was. She had told Patrick that she loved him very

much. She was unable to express a lot of emotion, but she expressed love for him. And she had said that she heard a male voice ordering her, telling her that she didn't have any choice, but she had to kill her children and then kill herself. Did you know Lindsay clearly had seen the lie or made that up of the ten that she was hearing voices? No. You have any conversation, any suggestions to hear at all, if you should say she heard voices

or anything like that? Absolutely not. Why did you let her call her husband on yourself? I let her call her husband out of human compassion.

“I think the jury is going to like him. What do you think, Dave?”

Yeah, you might as well have Captain Kangaroo. Do you remember him? I do. And he's just like, I mean, he just, he gave in on certain points that I think he needed to, and he just, he seemed very reasonable. You just, you just walked right over the Captain Kangaroo reference. Like, yeah, I do. I mean, I guess, I didn't know. I didn't know Captain Kangaroo was a big national figure or if it was just South Florida. But I guess that was national. He reminds me of

someone like very grandfatherly someone you trust, right? He wears that. That's very well. That is your central casting for some clinical psychiatrists and that guy had a going on. Again, we keep promoting, just come Dr. Z, because I don't know if it's pronounced size other size. Oh, I hope he got it right. But no, I'm with you that I thought he did well. I think the jury is going to like him. It's interesting when defense lawyers ask questions like,

did you tell her to lie? Like, like, right, no one's going to say, well, yeah, come on, yeah. I told her, I told her exactly how to make it up. Well, you know, I thought was one thing that was interesting in, you know, maybe they'll bring this up in closing. I'm not sure, is that he actually testified that he reviewed some of the psychological testing that the government doctor,

so the state's doctor did and he found no evidence of malingering. You know, I've always thought

those tests were a little, I don't know, they're just something about them. But there are some significant psychological tests that can be done to try to find evidence of what we call malingering, which is really exaggerating your symptoms or lying, um, and that, you know, the government's own tests said that she didn't have any of that any in the exaggeration or evidence of lying. So I thought that might be helpful. Yeah, that was helpful. When I was a prosecutor,

“I, we should deal with malingering all the time. Oh, that's why, and this is why people hate lawyers.”

Like, okay, what does malingering mean? They made you, you're faking it. Right. Why can't we just say faking it? He's faking it. No, he's malingering. Why? Why did that term? I know, and then you have to explain it. That's why that's why trials take so long, because we use words like malingering, and then we have to kind of figure out how to explain what it actually means. Exactly. That was helpful. Then yeah, how long it take me to understand that it's blood spatter and not splatter.

Oh, I can, don't even get me started on drug test, creatinine and not creatine,

did you run that one? No, no, I've always called a creatine. You call the creatine?

They're different. They're different. They're different. They're different. They're different. But you've never lived until you've sat there when you're client had a peanut cup and you're

alcohol, they're urine, you know, it's, it's just a hot mess, but don't even get me started on that.

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called Elizabeth LaPazata, am I saying that right? That one, you know, another name, but LaPazata.

“LaPazata, thank you. So, you know, there was some tense moments, I think, with her testimony,”

with the prosecution when they were talking about how the children were strangled. And I understand why the state wanted to use that and understand that I think it was probably impactful. I think we've got that at Salt 3. They weren't tied in a knot and left around their next, according to any of the evidence, correct? The important part to me was they were wrapped several times and then whether it had a bowl or a knot would not really be important. It was secure

and wrapped around the next several times. So, thank you, doctor. Travel around the tiles next several times and then left there. I guess you can't see it from where you are, but it just fell apart and I didn't see it as circle. Yeah, I'm so excited. Was that? I think I saw that. You saw it. So, it was left there in it fell apart, correct? Yeah, what you just did, sure. Yeah, thank you. Why was you a lot of test-by via Zoom? I know, I was surprised at that, but I'm guessing it's because

it was a defense witness. So, you know, the defense has the ability to object when the state does someone call someone by Zoom, but typically the prosecution doesn't have the same ability because of the confrontation costs. So, I'm wondering if that was that, if that was why or maybe they stipulated, but I don't really like having witnesses by Zoom if I can help it. But we'll see why, because you see why, because I told, can you see that? The exercise band broke. Yeah, I saw that.

It's just not the same. It's not the same. No. I'm like holding documents. Like if we're talking about a report, I want to be looking at the same report. I want to hold it up to the jury. I want, you know, I want hands on it. So, it's definitely different. It's something we have to do during COVID. And, you know, sometimes it's really helpful, but not in this instance. But your favorite doctor, Dave, was back up. Dr. Z, Dr. Z went back on the stand later, actually earlier today,

and testified. I thought some interesting things about some suicide attempts. Yes, in the fact, and before you get to that, because I do want to talk about that on that same subject, there was a question of whether the victim, excuse me, the defendant jumped out hand first or not, because that would tell you whether she really want to commit suicide. I mean, it did she really, it was a second floor window that she faked suicide by like jumping out and sort of breaking her fall

at the bottom. But this defense expert, Dr. Loposana, said that the injuries were consistent with the headfirst impact. Despite the fact that there was no brain bleed, there was no skull fracture,

“which I think is hard to believe. I would think if you landed on your head, you'd have one of those things,”

right? Yeah. I mean, unless you landed at a certain angle, I guess. You know,

I'm never really understood that the prosecution's entire point with, you know, how serious was she

about committing suicide? I think it's pretty clear that she's suicidal, and, you know, whatever her motivation was, she is paralyzed now. So whether she was trying to harm herself, I mean, you know, I don't know that that's really going to carry the day, because whether she was suicidal or not doesn't really mean she was in psychosis. So, you know, I'm not really sure that that's

talking about whether or not she was suicidal. I mean, he really just, he confirmed it, you know, he has confirmed. He said that Lindsay has called the suicide hotline twice back in December of 2022, and she didn't receive assistance either time, because she did not have an actual plan, like a plan to commit suicide, which, you know, that was just crazy to me, but he also testified about a lot of different tests that he had administered to her, and, you know, what really was the

conditions now, and that she's, I mean, she's at a constant suicide risk. He said she's one on one at the facility, and immediately when I heard that that she's one on one, I immediately thought, well, you know, that's probably why they're so worried about her being in prison,

“because if you're constantly suicidal, you need to be in a mental institution, you don't need”

to be in prison. And we can hear Dr. Z's testimony on that at SAF5. In Tuxper, as they have been, a concern of suicidal ideation. Yes. And what, as a result of that, SAF is also repeating to you through the records, is her status at Tuxper. She's on a one to one, a constant one to one to ensure that its cleansing doesn't take her own life. Yeah, well, I believe that. I mean, there's suicide watch, and no one wants to be on it. This is

why Jeffrey Epstein lied and tried to get off suicide watch because he wants to be on it, yeah. No, because you're given paper essentially to wear, like, freezing, it's brutal. You're on a cold slab, the ads, it's brutal. Yeah, it's brutal. So no one wants to be on it, even if you are suicidal, so you'll be quick to lie on it, a lie about it. But, yeah, I mean, again, Dr. Z Paul and double duty here, you think this is a win here that, okay, I mean, I guess it's

only because the prosecution has made such a deal over whether or not she was truly suicidal that they have to go down this rabbit hole. Right. And I think that is exactly why they're going down this rabbit hole. But I do think and we have SAF four, or Dr. Z testified that Lindsay

loves her children and misses them every day. Thought that might be the most powerful part of his

“testimony if you want to take a listen to SAF four. I didn't hear that she's laughing and partying”

and having a good time while she's in the two spary hospital. Did you see anything like that? No, Lindsay, Clancy has bad days and worst days. Wow. And when you speak with her and meet with her, Dr. And she ever mentioned her children because apparently according to the question and that you wanted to win, do you have a talk about it, kids? She does speak about her children. Where is she said? She really loves them and misses them and thinks of them every single day.

Almost every moment of the day. You know, they had that one quote in there that was really powerful. She has was it bad days and worst days? Yes, bad days and worst days. Yeah. It's heartbreaking. The entire case is heartbreaking. I know. Can we touch upon before you go to break? Can we touch upon the TikTok creator this woman Emily Thorndike? She's a potential defense witness. Remember,

she's that TikTok creator who knows about working at McLean Hospital around the time

Lindsay was admitted, but not at the same time, which is crucial. She left the job the year before

Lindsay entered McLean. She was critical the way the hospital had been portrayed during the trial and she says someone needs to be held accountable. This Emily Thorndike on TikTok was placed at six. I'm a Massachusetts social worker and I also worked on the exact inpatient unit at McLean for nearly eight years that Lindsay Clancy was a patient at. Very important. I was not there when she was there, but I literally worked there for eight years.

We need to correct the misinformation that this prosecutor is saying about McLean and what the stay there is like. So I'm going to break down everything for you and tell you the truth. McLean needs to be held accountable. They did clearly not do their proper assessment when they granted her discharge. I'm going to be straight up, okay? And I'm going to say that somebody who's worked on that unit and had to approve discharge. You are a well trained mental health professional.

“You know, when you are assessing a woman with postpartum mental health, you need to be doing a”

damn good job of making sure that she's not going to go hurt her kids because of where she's at her mental health. And I don't think McLean did a proper assessment. I don't think they asked any questions about the kids. A lot of times when you're discharging from this unit, it's about are you going to go hurt yourself? And she was suicidal. So she should have had a suicide assessment. But knowing that this is postpartum, I do believe that McLean failed her.

Yeah, and Dave, you know, the judge heard from her today and basically decided that he was going

to allow the records in and not hurt to actually testify, which isn't surprising. You know, I think

needed. So I'm not really surprised. But, you know, let's talk about another case, brand coberger.

“He is back in the news. And for those that have been living under a rock and don't know about”

Brian Cober, he pled guilty to murdering four University of Idaho students back in November of 2022. He pled guilty recently, but while in July of 2025, but recently he filed a petition to try to undo a handwritten petition to try to undo his plea for what's called post conviction relief. And he claimed that he apparently was coerced into the plea agreement by his attorneys, who he says did not adequately represent him. And one of the things that he said in his

petition, which I thought was interesting, is that he said that during a turning client discussions, most of which included all members of Brian Coberger's immediate family,

petitioner was convinced to falsely confess to Capitol murder and felony burglary by coercion,

disinformation, false promises, and the withholding of expulpatory discovery. So that tells me that his family was probably there for some of these plea negotiations, which can happen. It's rare, but sometimes, especially when you've a client who is mental illness or there were particularly young, which he's not young, but he did have some mental illness. Sometimes you'll want a family member there to help answer questions sometimes the defendant

wants that. So apparently that happened, but I'm guessing that he thinks that those family members are going to be able to support his petition to get his plea withdrawn. What surprised me though is why he didn't do some affidavids from them, but maybe now that he's got an attorney appointed, because he filed this petition pro say by himself. But now he's got an attorney appointed. So maybe we'll see some affidavids or some testimony from these family members to support what

it is that Brian Coberger is really saying at this point. Maybe. Yeah, well, he had a chance to say this

“under oath before the judge when he was asked these specific questions. Have you been coerced?”

I'm any under influence? No, no, no, under oaths. And now the liar, social path that he is, he's reversing himself. And he may be wondering why the timing of this is curious. It has some into a Netflix perhaps actually. Oh, 100%. I think it totally has to do with Netflix. And you know, we've also recently gotten some of his diagnosis released. And he's got a slew of different mental health disorders. He's got obsessive compulsive disorder ADHD autism, which is level one, meaning

that he is considered high functioning. He's got some other, some other diagnoses. I mean, the list is rather long. And so you've got that. You've got someone who wants to be famous, wants to be in the news. And all of a sudden, he is not. And then this Netflix documentary comes out. And the Netflix folks really try to focus on the victims and the victim's families and what happened and, you know, humanizing them and didn't really focus on him. And so it sounds

like maybe he was mad and does not surprise me at all. He was mad that he was no longer in the limelight. And he wants to be back in the limelight plus if you think about a Dave, he's in prison. He's got nothing going on. He has nothing to fill his days. And he is, you know, whether Johnny's diagnosed, he's a sociopath. He wants to be relevant. And this is the way when you're serving a life sentence to all of a sudden become relevant again. So I think it's really a desperate

“attempt just to get back out there and entertain himself. Holy, Gree. And that's why I say,”

Brian Coburger, go away. You're looking to get the death penalty. So just go. Yes, you need to be happy with what you got because you're lurching a damn good job getting rid of the death penalty for you. It sure did. Oh, and he didn't have to elicute. Didn't have to explain. He did it. Like, dude, count your blessings. Instead of being mad, you're lurching a get-basket and just go away. Seriously. Seriously. So, well, next, after the break, criminal defense attorney Chloe

Castro, who's an amazing guest who was on with us before, she joins us to discuss a murder for

a trial for a higher trial out of Florida. Of course, it's always always Florida. It began this week,

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Attorney Chloe Castro. Welcome to the show Chloe. It's so good to have you. Thank you so much. Happy to be back. Good. Well, let's start with a case that a little bit of background on a case, but a case from your neck of the woods and Dave's in Florida and my former neck of the woods. We have not covered this case before, so I want to give a little bit of a background, but it looks like it's going to be a very interesting trial. Um, Omo Danna Adelson,

ask is what Dave and I were talking, but essentially we've got a case in Duval County, Florida,

so that's a Jacksonville area of Florida. And Mario Fernandez is actually the first to be tried in this

case, so there's three people that are going to be tried, but first is Mario, and he was the husband, and he's accused of arranging a murder for hire, killing of his wife's ex husband. So I have to get that right. I feel like I need cards here. Shannon Gardner. So, Shanna and Jared Brightigan were married. They had twins and Shanna and Mario are married. Now, I mean, maybe not anymore. And Mario is accused of doing on behalf of Shanna having Brightigan murdered, murdered in cold blood,

by a third person who fled guilty apparently, and was cooperating, and now has changed his mind, and said, he guess what? I'm not cooperating anymore with Drew his plea, and now he's going to

“be on trial. And that's Henry 10 and I believe it's how you say his last name. But apparently,”

he's a former tenant of a property that is owned by Mario Fernandez and Shanna Gardner,

and the state is saying that he was hired as a hitman to actually execute this man. So a kind of a crazy case, sort of a crazy case, and one of the crazy fact I want to throw in is Gardner is apparently represented by none other than Jose Bias. So that will be an interesting. That's going to be trial number two I believe. But right now, I want to talk about trial number one. So we're underway. The state of Florida is trying to convict this man,

trying to show that he actually set this murder for hire up. I want to tell our audience a little bit about what the state's alleging actually happened.

“Yeah, the state in this case I think did a really beautiful job of laying out the chain. What they're”

doing is basically you can think of this prosecution as a big chain, and the state now has to create the links in the chain, because it's predominantly a circumstantial case. What they're saying is that they're alleging that Mario had motive, they're alleging that Mario had a connection to tenon, and they're alleging most importantly that Mario paid tenon, and that's really the crux,

the most crucial piece of evidence for the state in this case, that he paid some $10,000 to tenon

now what the defense is going to say about that $10,000 is going to be completely different. But if the jury does buy the state's argument that that $10,000 was a payoff, then they certainly may be very close to proving a conspiracy.

“You know, it sounds like that's what they're arguing really in the prosecution's opening,”

you know, just what you said, that motive, you know, we can listen to sought eight, which prosecution is just pitching motive to them. All of the combined that night to let the police know what they were dealing with here was not random. This was intentional. This murder was personal, so the question that night for police, who in the world wanted Jared Brightigan dead, who had the motive, who would benefit from his death, over their investigation for years, that answer,

and the reason that you're all here in court today, Shana Gardner, his ex-wife and her new husband, this defendant, Mario Fernandez, no one in the world truly wanted Jared Brightigan dead, no one in the world truly benefited from his death, no one in the world truly had motive to kill him, except for Gardner and Fernandez. The two couples co-parented, they did not do so amicably. You will see the court filings, you will see they were in and out of court for years.

It was nasty, it was petty, it was not good on both sides. But Shana Gardner complained about the custody agreement incessantly. She wanted full custody. No other explanation makes sense, because motive is important here because this is an easy motive to explain to a jury. People go through family issues, especially if you have jurors who have been

with something like this, like Donna Adelson. But here we have this case where this guy who lived on the

property, who was the handyman, who got paid, there's no question about that, a significant amount of money, it's not like you pay your handyman $10,000 to fix a door jam, you know, and yet the defense apparently is that, oh no, there was a murder here, but it's the handyman, it's tenon, who did it, he had the motive. In fact, I want to get close dots after let's see the defense opening about that, and then I want to get to that, let's play sought nine.

You will see, we anticipate no evidence whatsoever of anything, suggesting that Maria Fernandez has any involvement in the murder of Jared Biden again. You will see nothing in December. Giving any suggestion that Maria Fernandez hired, solicited, or had any involvement, desire, or intent about the Jared Biden to be murdered. What Henry Tenon did that night was unconscionable, and he will be held to account for that at a later date.

The state has brought in evidence of giant boots, car keys, jackets, of Henry Tenon. He destroyed the life. Jared Biden is wife, his family. He's destroyed the life of Maria Fernandez, who's been accused, there will be no evidence submitted to you that will cannot those chains, that he had any involvement in what Henry Tenon did. It's interesting because

“I think the defense is really hanging, it's had on the notion that while it does seem convincing,”

the story that the state is presenting is extremely convincing, but there's no hard evidence behind it, and just because Shayna Gardner had potentially emotive to kill her ex-husband does not mean that her current has been adopted, her motive. The defense isn't saying that the state has no evidence.

They're saying that the state has basically a collection of suspicious circumstances, and that

their job now is to convince the jury that these circumstances equal murder beyond a reasonable doubt. And without any hard-fast evidence here, it's going to be difficult for them to prove that. There's a lot of compelling emotional factors in this case, but at the end of the day, it's circumstantial evidence that the state is fully relying on to convict this man of murder

“and conspiracy to commit murder. Yeah, I agree. I think the state's going to have a hard time”

without this gentleman who is the one that actually did the murder. They've got something that got a lot of evidence to actually prove that he did the killing. They don't really have any motive for why he would do it without their murder for higher theory, but the state's going to be blamed for not knowing, not bringing that witness and not actually presenting any evidence as to how he hired this guy. I mean, there's some evidence that he paid him, but they're going to say apparently

it's for some handyman work, which I think makes perfect sense. He's a tenant in the house. You would do that. That would be a $10,000. I mean, that could be a normal relationship. I don't know. When I heard $10,000, it was like, who's going to hit me and take $10,000?

I mean, first of all, that seems insane to me. Wait, why? Is that too little too much?

That's little. I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to take anything, so I don't know, but seems low. I mean, you couldn't, let me put it this way. I think if you're going to do,

“this is awful, even say. But if you're going to kill someone for money, you need to at least”

make enough money that you can hire a damn good defense lawyer. And that is not going to hire you damn good defense lawyer. So I'm sorry, but the $10,000 is like, I'm not right off the bat buying math, that that is a murder for higher. I think maybe there was something else and what idiot writes checks, like literally you're going to hire your hitman with a check. They're idiots. These people are seriously. Yes, they're idiots. It's idiot. It's idiot, so there was a whole house out.

Actually, I don't know. You didn't hit me, but I cannot be bought. It is, it is an interesting defense to say that the evidence could point to others, wink, wink like the wife, but not husband. But then, remember, maybe you want to explain this in ploy, if you can explain the principal theory here, you don't be the one who ordered it. You just have to, or at least have a conspiracy. You just have to be part of the agreement, the knowledge, know about it, and someone takes an

over an act. So you can, you have to believe that he knew nothing about it. That the wife did this

know anything about it. I don't buy it all. Chloe, if you want to explain how easy it is to get caught

up in something without actually leaving the leader of it. Absolutely. So, you know, in this instance, the link in the chain that the states tried to make is that this payment that was made was the smoking gun, right? And the states, the defense is saying there is no smoking gun here. And the states are going to say, well, in a sophisticated conspiracy, you don't see written in writing,

“I'm going to hire you to kill this man. That just doesn't happen. So it's, let's hold, right?”

So to speak, but in this instance, when you really think about it, this man was a laborer, this man, and the defenses is led, the defense alluded to the fact that they are going to show evidence video footage of this of tenon doing yard work, lifting tiles out of the back of a truck, and who knows how long he was doing that for before the check started to come in. It could have

been a long period of time, and he's paying back pay. Who knows? But the reality is, you cannot

ask a jury. This is the beauty of a reasonable doubt. You cannot ask a jury to convict somebody for murder on a hunch that on a link that possibly this money was money for hire, rather than a legitimate money for legitimate business. Well, you know, Kristen, Kirsten, Brittany again, right again, had a feeling that these two were involved in it. And it sounded like she had more than a hunch. Let's see her, "Sot 10," what she said. When he called you, do you remember what time

of Naya was? It was after he had, it was after 745 when he would have dropped the twins off at their mom's house. And then the time when he would usually be back passed, and I, you know,

didn't think much of it. So I go, "Okay, maybe he had traffic or something." And then it got a little

later, and that's when I just had this, this just, you know, "Did you try reaching out to him by texting him or calling him?" Yeah, I texted him and called him. If he answered or respond, you'd have not. Were you continuing to call him while you were driving from your home and knock-a-t to Jacksonville Beach? Oh, as I was calling him from my car phone, the entire drive.

“It's somebody eventually answered. Yeah. Was it what you're in? No. Was that person a police officer?”

Yes, it was. Eventually, were you notified that night your husband had died? It was, that not only had died, but had been killed. Yes, I still, that he had been shot. Ms. Bright again, you had suggested to the jury that on the night of the homicide, you were asked questions by law enforcement, correct? Yes. But you did tell them, in so many words, you may want to look at Shannon Gardner and Mario Fernandez.

Yeah, I believe I said something along the signs that only people I knew had wrong with him for those two. I can't believe the defense asked that. I'm not going to like. They've got to have some good theory to ask that, but I was like, what are you doing? Speculation? No, I'm Jackson objection. There was like, wait, that was the defense. They got to have some theory. I don't know what it is, but they've got to have some reason to ask that. Actually, I completely

“agreed with you. I think that that may have been kind of a lapse in judgment. That question”

probably took things a little too far. Obviously, she's going to say she's his wife. She's obviously going to say that there's some contentious behavior there. They've been dealing with the kids and the co-parenting for a long time. The religious intersection here is also, please a huge factor. They wanted to baptize these children. There was a huge disagreement. But I think that the wife's testimony is extremely compelling. And when you watch Jared's wife and you watch her

breakdown on the witness stand, you can't help but feel it. You know, she's not just a witness. She's a grieving wife. She's a mother who lost her husband in a horrific way. And I think that every juror in the room is going to feel that. And the job of the defense attorney should be in what they should be focusing on in that testimony is to recognize that emotion without allowing it to answer the legal question. Right? The question isn't whether Jared's death was devastating.

It was most certainly devastating. The question is whether the evidence proves beyond a reason we'll doubt that this particular defendant was responsible. And a juror can have a tremendous compassion for grieving widow and still demand that the state needed to burden. These two things can exist at the same time. Well, they also, they had an witness testify who apparently is an

that she and her boyfriend who also testified, they came upon the scene and they actually saw what

“happened. They didn't see the beginning, but just for audience, what happened what allegedly is that the”

hitman put a tire in front of a car and it caused bride again to stop and get out and that allowed them to really have the opportunity to kill him. And so this witness Cruz testified that she was driving with her boyfriend. They came across the scene. They saw the hazard lights on the car. When they got out to investigate, they saw a bride again lying on the ground. So the homicide had already happened at that point in time. But really, I mean, this is just this is awful.

This is the worst part of the case, in my opinion, bride again had a two-year-old with his wife

who we just saw and that two-year-olds in the back seat. And she testified about that

for a little two-year-old's reaction, we've got that it's not 11, it's just heartbreaking terrible. Because there was a vehicle in the middle of the road blocking the road. So it was, yeah, it was dark, it was just flashers that I was able to see. So I stopped a vehicle, she ain't had exited the vehicle to go see if they needed help. So he got down, I remained in my vehicle, and then he he walks up asking if you know help was needed. And then I see him walking back towards

my vehicle and he says to call 911. And at some point he says there's a guy on the ground. He found the little girl. You mentioned the 911 call that your husband brought a child to you.

“That is correct. Can you describe for the jury her appearance when he brought her to you?”

She was shaking. She was like panting as if she's been crying. She was very worried about her death.

She just kept asking. She she was telling us that her dad is her on the ground along those lines. And asking if the police were going to help her daddy. It's heartbreaking. Extremely heartbreaking. And you know, the effects of that on a two-year-old alone are heartbreaking. Let alone just what came out of her mouth. It's sheer and utter concern that she had. My daddy is her. I heard two booms. Are the police going to help him? It's not

something that a two-year-old should be thinking. I think that the tire is a little more the state is really trying to make the tire a little bit more of a deal than it is. Because the only person's evident that was on this tire was tenants DNA. Right. Now the state's right. And the state's case does hinge on the fact that there must have been two people involved in this murder. Right. Tenant who was seen running away from the incident in video footage. And then somebody who must have been

driving this blue infamous blue truck away from the scene. They're making this, they're alluding to the fact that potentially Mario Fernandez was the driver of the truck yet. We have heard nothing about Mario's DNA being on the steering wheel. Nothing about Mario's DNA being on the door handle. Nothing about his DNA being on the seat belt. Nothing even about hair follicles being found near the driver area of the vehicle. There's zero evidence tying Mario Fernandez physically

to the accident. And you know, I want to be clear that the state doesn't have to prove that Mario Fernandez was physically there. But this is important for the defense because it breaks those little links in their chain. And the more links in the chain that are broken, the less credible

“the state's story seems to appear. Right. I mean, I think that that is the key that that second driver”

because the state is going to be relying on him. We actually have some video of Mario and his statement to the police before we do that. One of the things that really stuck out to me. One of the detective detective Chris John testified. And we all know Tenant was the shooter, but this just gets under my skin. He testified that Tenant had a distinctive gate. And so apparently the alleged shooter was caught on some surveillance. Greenies surveillance camera fleeing from the scene. And this officer

watched that and then he watched Tenant at the jail walk and boom, he can testify that the distinctive gate matched. I'm like, really, this is the cops saying this. So I just got on the door, but I do in the dark. In the right on a grainy video and you know, gate can be affected by so many different things, but don't give me started on that. But we do have some testimony actually that was played and it's Mario, his police interview. It's very interesting now. I don't really understand why,

but he's wearing a mask, none of the officers are, but we've got such a 12. I want to take a listen to that and then see what you will think about it. I mean, it's a big speculation, you know,

you know, when you guys showed up, you got, I felt like everything guys asked were like pretty basic questions. Like substance abuse, baby, you know, the other enemies, stuff like that. But it's,

“it's one of those things where it's just like, man, you need to get in line. Because I know”

people that don't like him, I told you. I don't like him, particular. I don't care for that dude. But as far as like, I haven't heard anything directly out of you guys, you know, like, I haven't been told anything. It's just what you can read and if you're fine online. And it's one of the things where it's just like, I don't understand what you got out of the car. The only thing I can think of is he knew somebody that was right there in front of him. Because I can't think of any other reason

for you to get out of your vehicle. There's so many courses you're vehicle, you don't know. Or they want to get in the car, you can speed away. Or if they're in front of you, shit. Or like, you know, if something's about to go down there in front of you, I'd rather run that person over. Oh, 100% just hit the gas. If I don't know, there's no reason to get out of the car. First of all, this guy's giving me Charlie Adelson vibes, right? Has an answer for everything.

He's got the same Charlie Adelson type hair. He's all cocky. No lawyer there. I can just talk his way out of anything. We're in the mask. He should be guilty for wearing the mask in that situation. That's evidence against him. By the way, the missing lock that was used in this case, apparently

prosecutors seem to believe it was tied to friend. Is his friend never recovered. So I don't know.

I'm going to do the evidence is not super crystal clear, but to me, motive means so much here. But yeah. Well, Chloe, you get the last word before you go to break.

“Fantastic. I, you know, I think that suspicious relationships are really common in cases, right?”

But the state is going to have to get from these two men know each other to this man hired this man for hire for murder. And that's a critical gap that the state's going to have to get over for the jury to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. There are so many doubts. The mere fact that someone else could have been involved, another driver could have been involved, is enough reasonable doubt in itself to say, Mario Fernandez, there's no, there's nothing

tying him. No text messages ordering the murder. No communication. No DNA. Nothing. Other than the fact that there's this contentious, co-parenting relationship, which he really is tangential to. I don't believe there's much of a motive. And, you know, there was some indication during openings

about how potentially there was a financial motive. But the reality is that Shayna Gardner's family

was very giving. They had substantial financial support. So I really don't see the motive here. But we'll see what happens. We'll see how the trial plays out. I love it, Chloe. I'm right there with you. You got me convinced. Thank you so much for sharing your afternoon with us. And can you tell our audience where they can find you? Absolutely. My name is Chloe Castro. My website is www.cdlawpro.com. And you can also find me on Instagram @cdlawpro. Awesome. Thank you so much.

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courtrooms this week because it made my blood boil. So let's start in Plymouth, Massachusetts

with the Lindsey Clancy trial. The prosecutor who we all have gotten to know, I won't say love, got Lindsey's own mother in law on the stand. A woman who had just testified that Lindsey was a wonderful, loving mother who was begging for help, begging for help before all of this happened. It was very heartfelt testimony and she's a victim. She lost her three grandchildren. Instead of dealing with that testimony head-on, the prosecutor asks her, "Are you a

Catholic? Are you aware that murder is a mortal sin?" Luckily, the judge shut it down immediately, called the sidebar, told the jury essentially to disregard it, which is about as strong as the judge

can do, short of admonishing her in front of the jury. But basically said what she just said,

“ignore it. But here's the thing. You never really get to unring that bell. The jury heard it.”

They watched a grieving family member get cornered with her own faith, like it was a trap. Like it was a trap to wear. And the prosecutor, she knew exactly what she was doing. That question was drawn out. It wasn't something that she thought of on the fly. She knew it and she did it anyway. And anyone knows that that's an improper question. She had to know full well that it might get struck. It's not just a mistake. That's a calculated risk. That's a calculated

risk that the lawyer is hoping that the damage lands before the objection does. But I don't even

know what the damage would have been in that case. But now let's flash forward to Jacksonville. Case we just talked about, the new case that Fernandez trial, Mario Fernandez is on trial

“in the murder for hire tied to the killing of Jared Bright again. The detective takes the stand.”

Tells the jury that Henry Tenons walk in a jailhouse body cam video, matches, matches, the walk, the gate of the shooter that was caught on a grainy surveillance camera at the scene. Testifies it's a match based on a walk. And you know what changes? How a person walks, a lot, shoes, a twisted ankle, a cold night, a flat field, rocks, incline, lots of things. Doing a heavy run the day before, working out hard, all of these things change your gate.

Gate is not a fingerprint. It's literally a hunch. And here it was a hunch wearing a badge that the jury they were hoping the state would swallow without blinking. There's no accepted scientific standard that lets a detective call two grainy videos a match. But state didn't

“care, state did it anyway. Acted just like it was a fingerprint or a DNA match. So when a”

prosecutor reaches for a defendant's grieving relatives religion to imply guilt or leans on junk science dressed up as an expert because it's coming from someone with a badge to close a significant gap in the evidence. I don't call that strategy. I call it what it is. It's misconduct. We talk about this every day on MK True Crime. So hopefully you'll subscribe and join us as we continue to break all this down. Thanks Dave. You take it away. All right Ashley. Well, I have been following

the Tate Brothers saga. Oh, I know you feel so badly for them, Ashley. You know, they have been struggling behind bars in Miami, the federal detention facility, Alfa Mail, Andrew Tate complains about the size of the beds in prison. Actually, the federal government responded with this is not a Marriott. That was actually in their legal brief. He's complaining about the water not being clean enough on the food, not being up to par. Sorry. There are no Michelin chefs

in government housing. You know, this is the type of whining that you would expect from some guy who claims to be a top G. Yes. Well, I'm not sure which is worse. Hearing that Tate Brothers cry about their so-called lack of civil liberties and the conditions behind bars or seeing their supporters bake in the hot sun last week at a protest demanding their release. Get a life, guys. I mean, look, if you're trying to convince a court to grant pre-trial release to the Tate Brothers

staging a testosterone fueled sidewalk spectacle is a little bizarre. Outside the court, we saw the Tate Brothers loyal disciples dropping to the pavement for synchronized push-ups. It was, well, you got to see this. Check this video out. I mean, this is a problem because right now

Is the magistrate on the bench? Okay. In this case, the magistrate is Judge Lauren Lewis,

“a woman who is not going to be swayed by a wall of hubris, chauvinism, and performative rage.”

In fact, this stunt accomplishes the exact opposite of what the defense wants.

Because when a judge decides bond pre-trial release, they look at danger to the community,

“they look at flight risk. Well, an angry rabbit mob chanting outside does not demonstrate”

p-sit signals potential witness intimidation. And a cult-like following that would gladly

help harbor a fugitive doesn't mitigate flight risk and amplifies it. So keep doing the push-ups,

“boys, all you're really doing is embarrassing yourselves and giving the judge yet another solid”

reason to keep the cell door closed. That is my closing statement, Ashley. I want to thank you for being such a great host and before I let you go, I want to ask everyone to please subscribe to the MK True Crime Show on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again to all of you for watching. Thank you to our special guest Chloe Castro. And we'll see you next time. Have a great week.