247. "We’re in our 40s — with nothing saved"

We have three young kids to a special needs. What's the closest you've got to a true financial emergency? Now, we need to get out of this hole and get our plan together and make some sacrifices.

That's the key thing that's been missing.

I feel like we're just kind of floundering and not going anywhere. We're trading water, but not even anymore. The dynamics between the two of you have cost you tens of thousands of dollars. If you stopped earning money, do you know how long you would last? We wouldn't. You would last less than a week.

“Also, except that you're gonna pay thousands in interest, that's why you're stressed.”

That's it. That's the ballgame. You're broke. It would guilty if I'm stupid. I'm mad at myself. Today I'm speaking with Stephanie and Chris. They're in their early 40s, married.

They have three young children, including two with special needs. They recently bought their forever home in Canada, where Chris is a professor on the 10-year track. And their finances can be described as an avalanche of inaction. Stephanie says they have no investments in barely any savings.

She manages their bookkeeping yet she feels ignored when she pushes for change. Chris says it'll all work out. So every conversation they have quietly goes nowhere. It's become two people just walking on financial eggshells around each other.

If you feel like you're talks about money never actually resulted in anything changing,

then this episode is for you. I'm about to open up their conscious spending plan, which breaks down their net worth income and where they spend their money.

“If you want my help navigating your own conscious spending plan,”

join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching. Here's a snapshot of where they stand. Total assets, 555,000 investments, 228,000 savings, just 1,662 dollars, debt 544,000, which gives them a total net worth of $241,000.

Now look at this, their fixed costs are at 92%. That right there tells me a lot. Tells me their broke, tells me they're spending more than they make. And this number which should usually be below 60% automatically tells me that they are stressed and overwhelmed with their finances. And their investments and savings are at 0 and 1%.

With their fixed costs, eating up just about every dollar in sight,

I'm not surprised that they have been ignoring it.

Imagine having 92% of your money accounted for the moment it hits your bank account. It's incredibly scary. What do you do in a situation like this? We'll get into exactly that with Stephanie and Chris. Stephanie, you said something in your application that really caught my eye.

And I'd like to read from it. You said, I take care of our finances and feel dismissed when I bring up investing, saving and planning for the future. He feels like it will all work out. I get overwhelmed.

I'm not confident talking about money, so I drop it and continue to worry. Do you remember writing that? I do. When Chris says it will all work out.

How does it feel to you? Like I said, it feels a little bit dismissive. I know he doesn't want me to worry. He wants the best for me. And I think he thinks maybe that will not play Kate,

because that kind of has connotations to it, but kind of will resher me in a way that it doesn't. So it's very frustrating. And I still kind of feel like I'm bloundering with things as a result. I know she does worry, and that it bothers her.

So as that husband, I just don't, I don't want her to be stressed. Hmm. Would it surprise you to hear that I don't mind if my wife is stressed sometimes? No, it doesn't really surprise me. I guess some stress is obviously good.

You're a fixer, and I think he wants to fix whatever is going on with me, because I mean, I know he loves me, obviously. So I think it kind of stresses him out when I'm stressed out, because he's feeling bad about it.

“So I think that's what, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes here.”

But I think that's what it is. You agree Chris? Yeah. Yeah. All right.

How often do the two of you actually talk about money? And a meaningful way? I'm not sure we do. I think we have the same conversation over and over. Was that conversation go like?

The credit cards are creeping up. We need to get on a budget where can we cut back? And I am worrying about retirement and the future. And he wants to deal with our debt in the present now. I shut down, rinse and repeat.

Wow, that sounds fun. Love the joy. It's awesome. Okay. Like, I was like counting one to all these hell and horrible.

Okay, you ever have a positive conversation about money?

I'll take the deafening silence as a note. I mean, from my perspective, the every six months we potentially like bring up a budget and try to talk this out. It usually do it at night. And as soon as there's a disagreement, it just kind of falls apart.

“Can you think of a time in the last three six months where you were not on the same page with money?”

Well, we moved to a bigger house in November. And there are cheap DIY stuff that Stephanie would like to get done. However, knowing the debt we have, I've been even if they're $100 or $200 things to do. I've been a little bit like, well, we have to handle this debt. And it's called some friction.

Let's go back to one of those conversations. Can we just, can you actually have the conversation in front of me? Stephanie, I don't think that I realize the kitchen sink is wobbly. And it's an annoyance. And, you know, but it's still functional at the moment right now.

Can we not replace it at the moment? Because we'll have to replace the sink, the countertop, et cetera.

“And I think it's something we can just deal with for the next year or two before we get our stuff together.”

Well, I'm frustrated because I'm often using it.

And we always have to end up medivering it every couple of weeks because the faucet isn't stable.

And it drives me nuts. And it's frustrating being in this house with this problem that we could just knock out pretty quickly. I think for not that much money. So I don't see why for our quality of day-to-day life we can't just address it. Okay, pause. Great. And then, how does it end? I tend to shut down in arguments, so I just say whatever, fine, forget it.

And kind of just walk away and go about my business and be mad about it. Is the sink fixed now or not? It's not. Okay.

“I noticed that money did not get brought up specifically in that conversation, right?”

Like, if you were to analyze that conversation as almost like a disinterested scientific observer, what would you notice about what happened? It's more about, I guess, not, I guess quality of life versus dollars. Because if it really was about dollars, I would have the research set and say, "Okay, well, it's going to cost X amount of money to replace the sink and the countertop if it needs to be done."

And we have X amount of money laying around or not to do it. Chris, I think regardless of whether it costs money, when Stephanie says I want to do X, my gut is usually, okay, let's talk about the reason why we can't do X. And I'm probably guilty of that. Okay. Wow. So Stephanie, you're saying you don't talk about the financial side of it,

because if the financial side were core to it, you would come prepared to discuss numbers. And Chris, you are saying your natural reaction is to basically shut down what Stephanie wants to do without looking at numbers. So I have a question about this. You mentioned you didn't get the sink. Do most of your conversations end up with you not spending, because if so, what's the problem? So the only pushback, we do talk about the costs and even to the point about the sink issue that we cashed in some like,

air mile, type points, or a home, a home depot gift card of nine hundred and fifty bucks. So we technically have the funds. We can do it. But there's the downstream thoughts I have is, well, we want to do a big catch in Renel in about five, ten, ten years. Why do something now if we're going to do something in five, ten years?

But I do get that this is important for Stephanie, and the problem is, is I already have poisoned the well and she'll walk away.

And I will come to her and be like, okay, yeah, just like, let's do it. Let's get it done kind of thing. But it's already been poisoned and she's already kind of angry and, you know, in her shell, so like nothing ends up happening. It's not like Stephanie says, like, okay, like, let's do this. I've kind of already ruined the moment, I guess. Ruin the moment. That's an interesting turn of phrase. The moment, what is the moment?

Yeah, that's a good idea. We could do it. Let's figure out how to do this, like, and get this done. That way. Stephanie, is that accurate? It is, can be a bit of a buzz kill.

“Okay, so you describe as a buzz kill today. What would you like him to be?”

Um, just a little bit more excited, especially if he sees eye on me excited, even if he knows, like, well, this is, this is not going to work. Like, just the initial, like, shut down as it just feels so deflating sometimes. Are you picking up on the contradiction here? Chris says it's going to be okay. But then the moment Stephanie asks for something, like to fix a faucet or to improve their day-to-day life.

The answer is no. So which is it? If it's going to be okay, why does every request get shut down?

I think the message that she's likely hearing is, it's going to be okay as long as you don't ask for anything. And it's a pattern I see all the time. In fact, a lot of men fall into it without even realizing it. They start seeing their wife's role as she wants to, she wants that. When is it ever going to end? It's never enough. And in this dynamic, they cast themselves as the reasonable one, the protector, the adult in the room.

Whenever I heard this dynamic, I know you have. For the person on the receiving end of this dynamic, it's incredibly frustrating. Every suggestion gets dismissed. Every request denied.

There's rarely an explanation, but when there is, it's just an opinion.

No numbers, no facts, just one person's entrenched opinion against another. And that's hard to argue with. Once that dynamic sets in, it creates a lot of tension. That tension is difficult to dislodge. It's kind of like gluing two pieces of paper together. You can separate them, but it's hard. And the more time that glue has been together, the harder it is to take them apart. Each person in their own corner of the ring.

It's almost like these magnets are repelling each other when if you just flipped them, they would actually be attracted to each other.

“It's a lot of opinions, a lot of feelings. I like feeling sometimes, but sometimes I like some freaking numbers. How about you?”

There's no partnership in this dynamic because everyone is too busy negotiating about their random opinions.

But what you notice is there's actually nothing shared that they can work together on.

It's Stephanie versus Chris when it should be Stephanie and Chris create our rich life vision together. If I had to bet, I would guess that this dynamic shows up in more than just the kitchen sink. So let's keep going. We once had a salary negotiation program at I will teach you to be rich. It did not do very well, and we were trying to figure out why, so we did a bunch of interviews from people who didn't buy. I learned that, of course, Americans hate negotiating. I knew that.

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That's right. Okay, how old are the kids? Six, four, and almost 21 months. Okay, great.

“Was there something about spending money on the kids?”

Something about swing lessons? Sure was. Tell me a little bit about that. Take me to the beginning of that. So we've been wanting to put them in swim for a long time.

So I looked into private lessons, got the two oldest into private. So the two of them with one instructor, and then the little guy, just in, you know, your aqua babies swim classes. But because they're private lessons or the whole year, September to next April, it's just under three grand. I told him what the cost was going to be beforehand. We discussed it.

I went ahead and registered them, and they do offer that you can do installment. So it's not three grand up front. We can break it down over the next few months. But he was like shocked.

Like he never heard the price before.

And I was just like, well, I don't know what to tell you. Is that what you said? I don't know what to tell you. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, it is because I told them, I did tell me to discuss it. Okay. All right. Let me check with Chris here.

“So Chris, do you remember discussing the $3,000 originally?”

Yes. Okay. And then when the payments started, you were surprised? When the invoice came, there was a bit of sticker shock. I totally agree that swimming is important.

It's an important life skill. But I'm just afraid like ask this moment in time.

Maybe a year later from now that it's really tight as far as fixed costs go.

Okay. What do you think that this swimming bill reveals about the way that the two of you make financial decisions? We make them without much plan. Yeah. I agree.

What else? I feel we don't think about our fixed costs. We just, we agree that, oh yeah, swimming is important. Let's do this. And I do agree it's important.

But we don't look at the numbers. We don't run the numbers. Mm-hmm.

“So it's like, is the sink important is swimming important?”

These things are, are they important? Yes. But when you talk about them, there are very few numbers involved. It's strong feelings. Even feelings about family or convenience.

But you don't have the added lens or layer of money. Yeah, you're right. You know, that's a lot. How a lot of people make decisions. They buy a car.

They just go, we need a car. They buy a house. They don't run a single number. They go by a mattress. They go to dinner.

They patient. They don't talk about it. But it's, they feel very strongly. We work hard. We deserve to take a vacation.

Wow. A lot of nods happening. They're all healthy. Both feel that way. We're a guilty of all of those things.

For sure. How do you think it affects your money? The actual numbers. And they're much lower than we thought they would be each month. Because you lose, when you don't think about it actively,

it kind of can lose track of the spending. And then you wonder at each month when it's time to put some more money onto the debt or something. Where did it all go? You spent it. What does that look like day to day?

Well, day to day, there's the stress of if we have an emergency, like with a house or otherwise, I don't know where we're going to pull money for that from. Because we don't have an emergency fund. We don't have much savings at all.

So I think we'd be in big trouble. And we have three young heads to a special needs. That's serious. What's the closest you've got to a true financial emergency? Although, pretty close now, quite honestly.

This I would say is the closest we've been. I'd like to take a look at the numbers. I think it's going to help me understand a little bit more. Can we have Stephanie read off the word in bold? And then the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

Okay, assets, $555,000. Investments, $228,500. Savings, $1,662.

Told in that worth, $240,000, $1062.

What do you think about those numbers? For early 40s, I don't think they're great. Chris, I agree they could be a lot higher. Okay, let me just understand the assets $555,000 house. Yes, house and two vehicles.

Okay, cool.

“And the debt, can you break that $544K down for me?”

The mortgage is about $460. There is credit card debt at about probably $15K. Okay? There is a line of credit that is about $13K. And there's about $50K that we owe parents that has no interest.

And no current payback plan, really. Got it. Okay.

All right, let's go on to income, please.

Chris, can you give me the combined gross monthly income? Well, of $960. And that means that combined the two of you make $155,000 per year. What do you both do for a living? I'm a registered nurse.

I'm a professor at the University. Okay, cool. Who's the one who makes $9500 a month and who makes $3460 a month? Chris makes $9500 a month and I make $3460 a month. Okay.

And how is it possible that your net is higher than your gross? You included the child benefit. Oh, that's right. Yes. Yes, that's right.

We get a child tax benefit from the government monthly.

That's about $1100 or so. Okay, cool. Let's continue on to look at your fixed costs. What's that number? 92%.

Whoa. So that's it. That's the volume. Yeah. Yep.

Yep. That's why you're stressed.

“That's why you don't have any money left over.”

That explains everything right there. Did you know that? Well, I didn't know that until we sat down and did the CSP. I guess I could feel it because we were stressed, but I didn't know that it would be. I knew it would be high, but 92.

I was shocked. What did you think it was? What did you think the problem was? I guess I didn't really think of it in terms of fixed costs. I just thought, like, we just weren't paying attention to what we were spending on.

Not necessarily that it was fixed costs, or it was not verbal spending. But like, just on spending on whatever, on fun or anything else. I just, I don't know. I didn't think of it in terms of fixed costs, though. Most people don't break down their finances into four categories.

That's why we have the free conscious spending plan. But in addition, most people actually don't even think about their problems in a solution oriented way. It's more like a stew. It's just this vague stew floating around in the back of their head, like something sucks. That's a lot of couples.

And to ask them, what is the solution, which we haven't even gotten to,

“a very, very single digit percentage of people think that way?”

All right, fixed costs are 92% investments, zero. It's a little surprising because you have $228,000 in investments. How did you accumulate that while you have $0 going per month to investments? So, most of that was from when we were living and working in the US. And that's my 403B and 401A, as well as we have registered disabilities savings accounts that are invested for our two kids that have disabilities.

So, about 50K of that is my pension that is a crude over the last three years starting my faculty position. Okay, all right, your savings are at 1% and that's $100 a month for gifts. That is reflected in your total savings right now, which is $1662. It means that if you stopped earning money, do you know how long you would last? We wouldn't.

Yeah, you would last less than a week. Yeah. That's it, game over. And you have three kids. Okay, everything else, guilt-free spending, says $636 a month.

Hold on, Stephanie, what's going on? It's okay. Take your time. We're in no rush. I want to hear from you.

Bill guilty. He's a stupid. They deserve better. Your kids. Absolutely.

Okay. I'm mad at myself. Do you deserve better? Yes, I do.

There's a lot going on for me career-wise in terms of burnout as I have been burnt out

from nursing for years.

“But I've just found it incredibly hard to pivot into a different direction.”

And I'm only working part-time because that's kind of what I can manage at the moment. But it's not enough. I don't want to keep dreading going or work every day. And it's not the work itself. I like helping people.

I'm good at what I do. I just, my heart's not in it. When we talked about your savings and how long you would last financially speaking, you started crying immediately. What was it about that? It's scary.

I'm scared. Did you know that before now? I did, but not so tangibly. Back and white. Here it is. There's no avoiding anymore. That is scary.

I've always thought we should shine a light on the stuff that we tend to avoid.

I'd rather know.

“It is scary. It doesn't feel good. Sometimes it feels horrible.”

Sometimes we cry. But ignoring it's not going to make it better. It hasn't worked. Is it? No. Sometimes we've got to walk straight through the fire. Try to find out what the solution is.

Notice Chris that I am not trying to tell her it's all going to be okay. I'm not trying to get her to stop crying. There's a voice in my head that obviously when I saw her cry, they wanted to, you know, comfort her in that way.

And there's even a small logical person in my head saying,

"Don't worry, Chris, you know, in a few years,

as you keep climbing this ladder, you're going to get paid enough that she can work part-time." Maybe true, maybe not totally irrelevant. Yeah.

“The thing is that your natural desire to comfort.”

It's a good goal. You can comfort in ways that don't shut somebody else down. Stephanie, I appreciate you being so candid. Like, money is emotional. Money makes us cry. It makes us angry.

It makes us jubilant. It makes us all kinds of feelings. Another wrong with that. I love to see it actually. It helps us really connect with the power of money.

I am noticing a pattern emerging here with Stephanie and Chris around gender roles. Are you seeing it? If you were raised in America, and you were giving a tour to someone visiting from Japan or India or Kenya, how would you explain gender and money in the US?

Like, what if they asked you, who earns more here? Men or women? Who takes care of the kids? What do men and women spend their money on here? And you started to answer them. And as you started to answer them out loud,

and you noticed their confused reactions, you would notice how much we simply take for granted, even if it doesn't make logical sense because that's just what we grew up with. That's culture. And I have found that especially in Western culture,

there are specific areas of life where gender becomes salient. For example, in parenting, a lot of women bear the responsibility of caregiving for children while men often focus on providing. Or the division of chores around the house. We often see women taking on the role of, for example, cleaning,

while men are handling things like car maintenance or lawn care. There's very good data corroborating this. And with Stephanie and Chris, we have two relatively higher earning educated people who have fallen into their own version of these archaic gender roles even when it comes to money.

Think about it. Stephanie took a step back from working full-time. She could be there for the kids. She manages the day-to-day bookkeeping for the family, but she has entered into the role, maybe put herself in the role of the convencer when it comes to any decision on spending.

Like a new sink or swimming lessons for the kids, she's reduced her role with money to be the one that has to ask for permission. And Chris has fallen into the role of what I call the ignorant reassure. I'm not using that term to be disrespectful or demeaning, but he doesn't have an active role in their day-to-day finances

and he is therefore ignorant of the family money. And then when Stephanie shows any negative emotion about their financial situation, he simply reassures her that it's going to be okay. He's an ignorant reassure.

The ignorant reassure, by the way, is always a man.

Do you see how gender and culture influence money? Before a single dollar gets spent, there is an entire dynamic at play here. And neither of them actually feels good about it. My hope today is to help them change that.

So we're going to get back into the numbers right after this. Here's some recent rich life wins from our I will teach you to be rich community. One reader made an account for spontaneous spending. So he could say yes to things like museum entrance fees or spur the moment branches. Another reader took her 75-year-old mom to Paris.

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Feel free spending says $636 a month, I don't really believe that. I think you spend more. Yeah. What do you all spend? It's not guilt-free spending because you're both racked with guilt.

What do you spend your discretionary money on? For me, it's mostly coffee lunch. You know, door-dash. Okay. Eating out what else?

I mean, well, since we moved into this house, like things for the house. I thought that once you buy a house, your mortgage is capped. And that's it. It's just like nothing ever increases.

“At least that's what it tells in America.”

You tell me that's not true. It is not true. All right. So when you evaluate your conscious spending plan, you have 92% fixed costs, 0% investments, 1% savings, and 7% guilt-free spending, which is almost certainly more than double that.

What do you think of your spending? It's not directed. What do you mean by that? Like there's no planning behind it. We just kind of take things as the cub.

Oh. Okay. You know, what's interesting is your housing costs are not particularly high. They're a little high, but nothing crazy. They're like 32%. Okay.

I would love it to be under 28, but okay.

Your mortgage 3489 plus utilities of 700 bucks.

You have a car payment of 230, or gas. A child care at 445 child activities at 312. Depainments of 400, but what's this number? Groceries. How much? $2,000 a month.

One more time? $2,000 a month. I do the grocery shopping, so I can't really put that on on Chris. We don't really meal plan or anything, so I'm just kind of buying things willy-nilly, and we do it end up with a lot of food waste.

But there's just no, again, no thought, no planning behind it. Okay.

“Where else in your financial life do you not plan ahead?”

Savings, retirement, investments. Everywhere else. Everywhere, yeah.

Is there any part of your financial life that you do plan for?

I don't think so. Our mode up until now, especially before the last child when Stephanie was working full-time, we were, we were our heads were above water because we just kept enough in the checking account that we didn't have bank fees, and when mortgages and other automatic payments would come out, and we felt like we were doing okay, because that checking account had like a decent balance,

and we had a buffer. But we still didn't plan for the investments, et cetera. I will say sorry to cut you off there, Chris. But when you were doing your postdoc, I was making very good money, where we were. We didn't have children.

And we managed to put away a lot of money, but we still didn't plan anything. It was just like, oh, well, we have enough to kind of spend without thinking and still save money and put money away. So this is fine. Are you both lazy with money? Yeah, I think we are.

It just kind of heads up, right?

Everything kind of makes sense. You're spending $2,000 a month on groceries because you don't plan for it. Savings are at less than 2,000 bucks. I'm not blaming. I'm just saying it actually kind of all makes sense.

What do you think about that? You're right. Yeah, I agree.

“I think we kind of knew this in the back of our minds.”

And it just didn't quite want to face it. This, this, bluntly. But then the reason the question, if you thought that was a problem, why not change it before talking to me? I think when it comes to communicating with Stephanie, if I just sit there and say, like, hey, we should be able to find savings.

That's not like, and that's probably what I do. You know, Stephanie will be defensive. Well, you do the groceries kind of thing, right? You know, trying to find a way to, you know, as a team kind of look into this deeper, where is the, within the groceries, where is the money going?

Can we find cheaper alternatives or deals or blah, blah? Or even, sorry, Chris, again, took it off. How much should we be spending on groceries? Like, we don't even have that. It's just kind of, well, we're buying what we're buying.

Like, we don't even have like a starting number of, okay. Let's try to keep it at X, X amount of dollars a week for groceries, say, right? Let alone where the savings are to be had. Does that make sense? Are you all agreeing or disagreeing?

I can't figure it out. I can't even. What's happening right now? I don't know. I don't know if, like, I'm, I'm just saying this is what we do.

So what did each of you just say? Because I suspect this is what happens a lot with your money. Somebody brings something up. The other just starts talking. And then you're both like, all right.

And then you just don't talk about it. It's not productive. So let's, we're going to drill in right now. I'm not going to let this go. Chris, zoom up as if you're floating above the conversation.

What just happened in that conversation?

“What did each person say and what was the role they were playing?”

I said that we do spend too much on groceries. And I did say that, you know, looking at what the average family of five spends on groceries might not be, you know, accurate to where we live, etc. You said we spend too much on groceries. We should probably be able to cut that down.

But if I brought that up to Stephanie, she would be defensive. What does Stephanie density? Stephanie said that, you know, she kind of agreed. You think Stephanie agreed with you? I mean, I agreed that we don't discuss it.

I agreed that we don't really look for sales. I agreed that this food waste. I don't think she said any of that stuff. What did she say? I'm honestly struggling to remember.

Okay. Guys, do you, do you not see that this is part of the problem?

But you don't even know what you're responding to. It's just this. What do you think's behind that?

“I think I have a habit of interrupting folks of kind of vacuuming up space.”

It's a little white male stuff. Yeah. And I'm kind of like I catch myself and I try to be aware of it. What? Oh, sorry.

I tried to catch myself. Oh, okay.

I mean, I've got not always successful.

Okay. But Chris, you know, okay, that's, that's perceptive. I don't think you even heard what Stephanie said. The fact that you have now twice mentioned, you know, I don't remember what she said. Like, that actually tells me you're not really being present in listening.

Because Stephanie had an extremely good point. Stephanie's point was, well, how do we even know what our target is? But you didn't even hear that. You literally did not hear it. I think you just heard words.

Chris, you heard her say the word groceries and number. And you were like, got it. I'll take it from here. And you actually didn't respond to her point at all. You didn't acknowledge her.

And so we're often left field here. How often does this happen? A lot. A lot, yeah. Okay, you guys can't fix your money until this gets fixed.

We could fix your CSP. No problem. But two days from now, you're going to have exactly the same conversation. You're going to re-gress right back into where you are. What do you think?

You're right. It's what we've been doing. We're just spitting our wheels, having the same argument over and over again. Yeah. So what's it going to take to change?

Yeah, repeat. Oh. Did you ever see one? I see one. Okay, Stephanie sees one.

Chris, it's on the two-do list. Oh. Am I reading a wrong word? Chris, do you look upset right now? What's going on, Chris?

Umm, shame guilt. You know, obviously on paper, I'm like, and I'm been so career-focused and Stephanie's been great at supporting that because not everybody understands the long journey of becoming an academic. Yeah. And then not only that is like, my work comes home with me because of the nature of it. And, you know, I live most of my day thinking like a scientist being a hypercritical of everything.

And it's hard to turn that off when you get home and it's not fair to Stephanie. It's also not fair to myself to like live a life without that joy without that excitement. Chris, that's the most honest thing I heard you say today. Like, I say that in the most complimentary way.

“I think that is extremely self-perceptive.”

I also love that you acknowledge Stephanie and you also acknowledge yourself. It's not fair to you as true. It's not fair to her. It's not fair to your kids. Yeah.

I appreciate you being so candid. Stephanie, how did that strike you?

I've never really heard him say that in that way.

I think I've heard him say it more in an intellectual kind of way. But it was kind of nice to see that emotion. I guess around that. And I appreciate it. I know that's hard for you.

Thank you. I actually love the honesty that we just heard from Chris. And in a way, this is just another example of those traditional gender roles permeating different parts of their daily lives. He goes to work. He brings that same work home with him.

He's so caught up in being a provider that he's unable to be present and actually hear what his partner is telling him. And I see this a lot. Men who are afraid to stress out their wives. It's a very well-trodden invisible script. I'll give it to you in simple terms.

It goes something like this. My wife is emotional. Emotions are bad. They make me uncomfortable. My job is to be a provider and to calm her down.

So I'll tell her it's going to be okay. What is that? If we actually interrogated that script, that deeply held belief that we have. We might realize, I don't know if I even believe that.

Why do I think that?

You know, often as men, we are not always equipped to deal with feelings.

And I talk about my experience with this all the time. Took me a long time and a lot of hard work to access my own feelings. Even to be able to answer a question like, "What do you feel about X?"

“My normal tendency would be to answer, "I think X, Y, Z."”

I was cerebral. I've had to learn how to connect with how I feel about something. It's lifelong journey that I'm on. Until I actually could access my own feelings, my default when dealing with other people's feelings was,

I want to make this go away as quickly as possible.

and I had somebody crying in my office in my head. I didn't do this out loud, but in my head I was like, "How long is this going to go for it?" I need these uncomfortable emotions to go away. That takes a lot of reflection and actively hard work to change.

And as men, we often deflect. We go, "It's going to be fine." Such a surface level reaction or worst of all, we ignore those feelings that come up especially from our partner. Just like Chris has done,

I don't even think he heard the words that were coming out of Stephanie's mouth. And so the cycle continues. The result is that they both walk on eggshells and every money conversation they have ends with indecision. How could it not? They're not even actually connecting on what's really going on here.

The fact that Chris can acknowledge this and express emotions around it is actually amazing.

That was a breakthrough moment. And it indicates to me that he can change. I am willing to bet that these hidden scripts and gender dynamics started decades ago, likely even generations ago. Can I understand a little bit more about how you grew up with money, Stephanie?

“What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?”

I remember when you were young. I remember when it was like a pay week versus when it wasn't. Because one of the things I used to do with my dad was go grocery shopping. Just to spend time together, it was just like a thing we did. And on a pay week, I could get like an extra little treat.

And when it wasn't a pay week, I couldn't. So there was that. And I remember hearing, well, there's no money for that. So no, just in general about things. I didn't think we were poor by any means. But I did not. I knew we weren't like wealthy or anything like that.

They didn't talk to us directly about money. Other than we have it or nope, we don't have it. So you can't have that. So there's no talk about like investments or any kind of these bigger picture things.

Credit cards, bad, save your money was basically the just of it.

It sounds a bit erratic. Like we have it. We don't on almost weekly basis. Am I reading that right? Yeah.

“And would you describe socioeconomically where you poor lower middle class?”

How would you describe it? I think we were probably middle class. Then why why was it so erratic? I think it's just the way my dad and particular talked about it. Oh, wow.

So it's possible that you actually had more money. Oh, I'm sure we did. Now he's since passed away. And my sister, because my, again, my dad took care of all the finances and stuff. So my mom really needed help when he passed away. So my sister stepped into that role.

She's well taken care of for her retirement. Like houses paid off the whole thing. So we definitely were not, we weren't struggling. At least from what I can tell. What do you make of it now looking back, the fact that, you know, you could get certain things on certain weeks, but not on other weeks.

What do you make of that? I think they prioritized their money better than we are quite honestly, because I grew up playing sports.

There was always money for me to play my sports.

That was never an issue. We travel, say to totals the whole deal. But there wasn't an importance on like extras because I remember like getting to high school. My friends, parents would like buy them loole men. That wasn't happening to anybody else.

Yeah. And in the shopping, you mentioned that on a pay week, you would get something. What would you choose back then? Oh, like a bag of tips or like a talk of art. When you go to the grocery store now, as an adult.

Yep. Do you consider it a pay week or a non-pay week? I don't. It's just whatever I want. I'm going to adult.

I'll get it. Yep. How do you feel when you check out of the grocery store? Yeah. Lately, like, like, oh, God.

Like a little bit of drag, quite honestly. Hmm. Feels bad. Yeah. You change anything because of the bad feelings or no?

No. All right. Chris, can you tell me what your family said about money as you were young?

“So, I think my dad, you know, he did tell us how important saving was, how important,”

not paying interest was, that, but it definitely came from, you know, a classical family where it was more of barking orders, right, like a lecture, and, you know, growing up,

I was like, oh, they make pretty good money on the verge of upper middle class. But they were saving and investing and stuff.

“I think the biggest thing was when I had my paper row, when I worked hard time as a teenager,”

my dad did demand to see, like, checking out accounts and balances, and I would get a scolding if I wasn't.

But, basically, I got scolded for saving, for spending, sorry, and I think what I learned

was, well, as soon as I get out of here, I'm going to buy the video games and stuff that I want. You're going to reject and rebel what your dad told you about money, and you're going to get what you want because you earn a adult. Yeah.

And that's kind of what I did in my 20s, whether it was clothes or video games or other stuff that I'll be didn't matter in the long run. Getting back on what you learned from your family about money, which of those lessons do you think you bring to this relationship?

“I mean, I love my dad, but I think broader than the money thing, I think the not listening”

to people slash interrupting definitely comes from him. This obsession with paying down the credit card debt, it did come from him as well, but like none of the other, you know, potential saving and investing. That's pretty interesting.

I think the first one you mentioned about not listening is quite savvy.

And it seems kind of out of left field, but probably directly related to money. What do you think if you became a better listener with Stephanie, specifically as it relates to money, but in general too, how do you think that would improve your financial situation? I think listening to Stephanie, in generating the plan of what our categories are specifically, what is our plan to move forward with money?

I think that's where the true like listening would be because I think up until this point, even when I quote unquote, "agree," there's no action that follows, right? I think we're both kind of waiting for the other one to take the lead in a lot of ways. I feel like we're just kind of floundering and not going anywhere. We're treading water, but not even anymore.

Really? You kind of going underwater? Yeah, exactly. So I think your spot on when you're saying our communication is going to be the foundation for all of us.

What role do each of you think you play when it comes to money? If you just zoomed up and you just looked in general, Stephanie, when you talk about money, bring money up, what is your role and Chris, same question for you? What would your answer be? I think I'm a bit of, I don't want to say nag, because I don't think I'm nagging,

but I bring the problems, bring the problems up. And Chris, if I'm being honest, I think my mode has been make it, make the money, like provide, and then everything will be okay. How does it strike you both to hear these roles just laid out, stark and bare? Neither one are particularly helpful, because we're not working with each other.

I mean, there is a role to talk about problems. Yes, there is a role for one or both people to earn money. Yes, but it's almost like you're operating in different matrix. And notably, I don't hear anyone say, oh, I'm the solutions person. Where is the solution coming from?

That we need that role too, and most of all, we need them to all talk together. The thing is, you're married, you have kids, ostensibly you want similar things.

“You want a successful family, financial security, we can talk about what the rich life is,”

but it's not happening in part for pretty obvious reasons. The roles are not talking to each other. There's not a habit of follow through, I don't see any mysteries here. Do you? Not when you zoom out like that.

Now I'm curious, when you were together before kids, do you talk about money at all? I think we did. Well, I will say that I remember on more than one occasion when we were living in the States, actually after starting to watch your Netflix show and listening to your podcast,

wanting to start investing and Chris being like, there was always a reason, kind of not

to, where it was like, well, we're going to move back to Canada. So do we want to, like, even bother setting something up here, or now when we've talked

started investing and it's just, I don't really know how to counter because I don't know how it really works. I don't feel confident in that area, so again, I shut down and then drop it and then a couple of months later, we have the same conversation. What's your take on that, Chris?

“Yeah, I think Stephanie in general is, is right, it's, is she is right?”

When we were in Houston, I felt like it was just overly complex to invest in, while in the States and then move back to Canada. So I kind of kicked it down the line. How much money do you think you lost by not investing? I try not to think about it because I, well, let's think about it now.

I love it. I mean, we, we pulled in pretty good money in American funds, while down there. How much? Total? First years, it would have been about, you know, 120, but by the, by the final year, it would

have been closer to 150, 160. 160, how many years were you there? Six. Five. Yeah, almost six years.

Six years. Should we just do the math for fun? Sure. Yeah. All right.

“10%, that's conservative, you should have been able to do more since you didn't have”

kids, but let's 10% of gross, just to make it easy. Years to grow, well, let's just do five, six, just for fun, and we'll do seven percent. All right. So just, just from then until now, you would have had $107,000. Just sitting around, how about if we just let that thing keep growing?

And we didn't add any more to it. So we add nothing more to it, or the next, what? 25 years? $581,000 in today's dollars.

The amount you would see in the bank, the nominal would be $1.1 million.

That's not a money. Can I offer a little bit more detail, though? Why? So the first couple of years down there, we were actually paying down, Stephanie's student debt.

No, why are you offering more details? Is it too, is it too justified not investing? No, I totally agree with you. We should have invested. Okay.

Totally agree. I just, the reality would have been, well, the first couple of years, like we did, we probably wouldn't have been able to put away what we're brainstorming right now. That's all. I'm not denying that would be all be tons of money that we would have, but we clearly

don't have right now. I think I just, I get focused on detail like that, and I know it derails conversations and stuff like that. It's happening right now. I'm doing it in real time and I'll stop.

The point is whether you would have invested 10% or 8% or 13%, you would have had a lot of money and the inaction is not just with this, it's after you went to Canada and it's after you had kids. Basically it's not based on the circumstances around you as you've been telling yourself. It's you until you acknowledge that the decisions that I see reflected in your finances.

There's always a good reason, like, well, we didn't have kids, but we had dead, but then

we had kids and now we have this and we live in this remote area. Like all of it is actually very compelling. But when you zoom out and see the totality of it, you go, oh, this is just habits. You didn't save when you had a lot of money, you're not saving now, you just don't save. Now, you can change that because you don't have to be the same person you were.

You can also change your behavior, that's even easier to start investing.

“We can talk about the numbers, but you have to admit and really take a hard look in”

the mirror. Oh my God, it has nothing to do with the circumstances around us. While true, other people in the same circumstances probably would have reacted differently. Right, and I think to not just throw Chris out into the bus, I sat around and did nothing, too. Yeah, you're coming that I didn't, I'm not confident about money.

Once you get confident, it's not that hard just to be very, very direct with you. Again, I'm not trying to talk down to anybody. I'm saying money's important. It's clearly important because you bring it up. You describe yourself as the person who brings at the problems.

Why not add that layer of bringing up the solution? Right now, what happens is you bring up a problem. Chris who wants to deflect and kick the can down the road and nitpick all the reasons it won't work, he's actually is only nitpicking your feelings. It becomes a much different conversation when you say I ran the numbers, knowing our fixed costs.

Here's what we would have to do.

Here's what it would cost us. Here's our trade-offs and here's how I would do it, but I'm totally open to hearing how you would do it because I want you to be a part of this as well.

Have you ever had a conversation like that?

I have brought the CSP to you before. Ooh, what happened? You called it a budget and really, well... Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on, now I'm going to start crying on this show right now.

These are tears. You can't see 'em. They're skin colored. My tears don't come out like other people's tears. I am crying inside.

You called it a budget?

I apologize, I don't remember when this was okay.

Well, that's fine. I don't mind that you said it was a budget, even though it's not a budget. What happened then, Stephanie? That's, again, I shut down. I get frustrated because I didn't feel like I was explaining it in a way that made sense to Chris.

And then I just got frustrated and dropped it. What if it doesn't need to make sense to Chris? What if your need to have Chris understand things is actually one of the blockers in you moving ahead? You two are partners.

“And the fact is, you need to invest, you need to pay down debt, you need to save.”

If one person doesn't understand, then make them understand or move forward anyway. But right now, putting it back on yourself and then describing yourself as, "Oh, I just get frustrated." That actually is an acceptable. If you want to change your finances.

And, Chris, do you see the effect that your responses are having on Stephanie? You know, in the long term, obviously, it can put strain on the relationship of the partnership in general. You know, we need to work through this thing where, you know, if my reaction, my instinctual reaction, which can be bad, can, you know, I obviously need to work on that

to avoid making, like, Stephanie's reaction of shutting down. How are you going to work on it? I mean, I'm going to need help to figure out how. That's just the vulnerable part. Agreed. So let's just decide right now how you're going to do it therapy.

Okay. I think that's really good. I think there's like a lot to dig into there and Stephanie. You want to ask her how she would like for you to show up. Stephanie, how would you like me to show up?

“I would like you to show up with an open mind without feeling like you have to manage my feelings”

or solve whatever the problem is.

Chris, you know, you may find yourself in old patterns, as you said. You'll get some new tools in therapy, but you can, you can always stop and just like, uh, uh, I think I'm going back to the old Chris, Chris, the dream crusher. Uh, let me just stop right here. Do you mind if I take 10 minutes, just think for a second. I'd love to come back and start this over fresh.

That's totally cool. So feel free to use that tool and many others that you will both learn. I have to say I love the level of self awareness that Chris and Stephanie are showing. They're not being defensive. They're actually each stepping up to own their side of the road when it comes to what has gone wrong. There is a recurring pattern in story after story that they tell me about their money and it's

in action. For Chris, it was not wanting to go through the hassle of investing in the US knowing that they were going to move back to Canada in action. For Stephanie, it's getting frustrated that she doesn't have the knowledge or the language to be able to meanfully contribute to the conversations about money and so she shuts down in action. Part of the reason they have been able to get away with this in action is that they haven't really faced any real consequences. They've been able to lean on

family in the past and sure they've been rackin' up debt. But what's a big deal? Still got a roof over ahead. Still have our phones. What's the problem? If they had faced real consequences,

“they would probably have a bigger sense of understanding of the urgency. But the fact is these”

consequences are coming and they are coming fast. With 92% fixed costs, it is just a matter of months, maybe even weeks before they will have to face real and possibly devastating consequences. So next up, I'm going to get real about their debt. So the debt of $544,000. What is the plan to deal with this debt? I mean, the bulk of it is the mortgage. So, of course, we'll be making our mortgage payments. But for the line of credit and the credit cards, no.

Like we know we have to pay it off. I think we could probably, there's one that's kind of smaller that we could knock out fairly quickly. How'd you get into credit card debt? It's funny because we again, the whole trading water. We only really got into it a couple of months ago, where we were paying off our balance every month. So I'm working part of time now, but I had picked up another kind of

stopped coming in, expenses just kind of crept up. And we just couldn't pay off the full balance.

“So it just kind of snowballed since July. Why are you not able to pay off the full balance?”

Life, right? Again, the whole not paying attention to where money's going. And it just can I add a little bit of information? So from a snapshot, the move, the move to a bigger house in November, obviously there's indirect costs of buying a new house furniture or other stuff.

You going from too, like, full, basically, full time to halftime. We don't think about the numbers.

We, we need after the third child, we needed a bigger place. And we sort of semi-rand the numbers and said it's doable. But at the time, we had to, like, Stephanie had the full income. When you, when you dropped the income a bit, did you adjust your expenses at all? No, not at all. Nobody does. No. Okay. Then you owe a 50K to your family. What's that about? So most of that is to my dad. He's, that was actually a contribution to the down payment for

most of it. No, no, we agreed to do enough for the down payment. It was for, like, everything else, right? Because it's more than just a down payment when you buy a house.

So we used to have to buy, yeah, like, buying furniture. We needed to get a second car when we moved

here. But that wasn't, wasn't for the recent house in November. It was when we moved back to Canada. Yeah. It was to help us, like, the other kind of cost of moving internationally, I guess. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I just woke up again. And two hours later, we're still talking about irrelevant

“details. Yeah. Guys, come on. What's going on here? What is, what is the need to get into the details?”

You owe $50,000 to family on top of credit card debt on top of a line of credit. What's happening right now? I want to help you. I'm not giving up on you. But I can't pull you up out of the weeds over and over. I need you to be able to do it. You're adults. You made the decisions to get into this financial situation. I'm just asking you simple questions. What would somebody else have done before they moved into a bigger house? How would they have handled it? Someone who's

better equipped with money? Looked at the actual numbers and whether it was actually feasible. What else? And if it wasn't coming up with a plan? What would the plan have been? Like coming up with what how much we actually needed and a timeline? Yep. And then like a plan to get there, whether that's again picking up another job, cutting our expenses, and to see if there's ways to do that? Yep. Chris, what do you say? So I totally agree. Like

there's a lack of timeline and a lack of discussing the sacrifices needed. You know, we were we were not happy in the smaller house. And so like, took it. Me as that fixer of like, okay, even if it's we're going to struggle a bit. Let's get this bigger house. But yeah, the smarter

“decision would have been to stay in that smaller house for longer. Right. Do you see this is powerful?”

Do you see how the dynamics between the two of you have cost you tens of thousands of dollars? This is very common male female. The guys like I'm going to just fix it like I'll take the burden on my back like my and then my wife just wants stuff. Oh my god, I got to find a way for her to not want it. Oh, cow, it's very gender stereotypical and I hate it because nobody ends up happy. There's all these invisible expectations, which are often from a different generation

where one person worked and another didn't, you're both working, you're both highly educated. And nobody even's talking about these expectations. They're just invisible. I want you to be able to make better decisions. And I think that the way you communicate, it needs work and help. I'm getting a little frustrated in this conversation because it feels like I'm taking one step forward and two steps back. Yes, the gender roles are a major issue, but so is this near-term view

that they both have around their finances? They're basically stuck in the weeds. And so they talk

and shut down and talk and shut down and never make any meaningful decisions.

Candidly, this is a luxury problem that they can only afford because they haven't actually really faced true consequences. My philosophy here is why would I ever let my back get against the wall? Like for the parents listening, let's say your kid comes home crying from school when they

your kid get punched in the face and come home with a bloody nose and missing teeth? Of course not.

So why do you allow that for yourself? I remember a friend once saying, I wish I could tell people to get impatient with themselves. We get impatient with other people, but why don't we do the same for ourselves, with our career, with our money, with our relationships? If you are stuck in the weeds and every time you talk about money, you just end up going in circles, you probably need a totally new way to look at your money. I want you to join my money coaching program. Aside from you

“coming on this podcast, it is the only way to get coaching from me directly. It doesn't matter”

if you're married, single, you're nearing retirement or you're just starting off, you're

going to get the tools to take control of your money and create a radically different relationship

with money. I want you to change your relationship with money from being on the defense to going totally on the offense and creating your rich life. You can sign up at iwt.com/moneycoaching. Now, getting back to the numbers, Stephanie recently made the decision to work less, which is a big factor in their high fixed costs and I have some questions about that. Stephanie, in your application, you wrote that you feel you're not contributing enough. What do you mean by that?

Well, I'm only working part-time, so it definitely could be bringing in more money, especially with my profession and skill set. Is it possible for you to work more? It is. Family-wise, there's no barriers there. Well, the simplest way for me to work more would be to go back to the bedside, bedside, pay more, but then comes with 12-hour shifts in overnight, which is tough with three young kids, so that's kind of why we've avoided it. We did it initially

when we moved back here and it didn't work for us. So, I'm just looking for if it's not possible, I totally respect it. Is it possible or not, yes or no? No, it's a stop dancing around it. You know, part of changing the dynamic with money is becoming decisive. I struggle. I will say I struggle with that big time. Yeah.

“Nobody ever tripped and fell into a rich life. And part of living a rich life is being honest”

with yourself and the people around you. If you can't increase your income right now, say it. If what you currently spend on groceries is x, say it, because we got to work with what is real, then we can improve it or change it. Okay. Chris, you started your career a little bit later, because of what you do. You have a pension. I think that pension is going to grow. So, you feel confident in the future while Stephanie worries about the present. What do you make of that?

I should be focused on the present, even though I trust my future. I don't trust and I don't know and I'm very uncertain about Stephanie's future from a career point of view. If I'm being honest and Stephanie can correct me if I'm wrong, but I fear that even if Stephanie found a great community nursing position that was full time, she still wouldn't be happy. And so we need to get out of this

oil and get our plan together and make some sacrifices, I think, and I think that's the key thing

that's been missing. Stephanie, what do you think about Chris's comments? He's right. I don't necessarily think like you have to like love what you do by any means, but I just don't want to dread it. How do you think other people who don't dread their job do it? What is different about them than you? It's okay. It's a tough thing to think about. What do you think in? I don't know what

“the tears are about. Honestly, I don't know what this is about. Can I ask the question again?”

The people who don't dread their job. What do you think they do differently than you? They probably have a plan. They have a direction. Do you mind if I suggest a couple of things? Sure. Your kids are in swim class now. Is that right? Swimming lessons? What happened when you put them in the pool? Oh. He hated it. Oh, really? What happened? He like, I don't know if it was the temperature of the water or what

it was, but he just was not impressed to be there. He warmed up through it a little bit, but it wasn't enjoying it, huh? And were you there? I was there, yeah. What were you saying to him when you saw him thrashing around and crying and screaming? It's okay. What else? I mean, I was singing to them. Trying to see them a little bit. Wow. Taking them through the water, trying to become.

cheering him on and supporting him. Something that people work hard and sometimes work really

stressful jobs might have. Somebody cheering them on and supporting them at home. That need to feel that I don't when you're working stressful positions that you're not getting support from me. Ask it slightly differently, Chris. Ask how could I support you more?

“I support you better when you're when we have to make these sacrifices and you have to make”

these sacrifices, you know, working high stress jobs, et cetera. You could support me more, Chris, by communicating with me and finding a vision and a direction that helps me

understand why I'm making the sacrifice. Yeah, why it's worth it. At least for this point in time.

Are you asking me to take more of a lead in the finances and division for like a rich life, et cetera? Not even that, not so much of a lead, but just a part that just have the discussions and get on the same page. I can do that. That's how you do it. Chris asked how can I support you and Stephanie gave a beautiful answer. Stephanie needed to know that someone is in her corner, not solving it for her, not taking over, but simply saying I'm here. Just like she did for her

son in the pool. She let him feel that fear and the support at the same time. That is what financial partnership looks like. You're not shielding each other from stress. You're not deferring every decision. You are standing side by side, even when the numbers are scary. And you're saying we're going to figure this out together. You know, people can do really hard things when they know they

are not alone. And that is how you build a rich life. We never try to avoid discomfort. We get strong

enough so that we can handle what comes our way together. We got to go back to the CSP and we got to make some changes. Yes. Your CSP is currently a 92% fixed cost or goal is to get this down

“to 60% or lower. Where would you like to begin? I think groceries is the most obvious. Okay,”

it's 2000 right now. What do you want to put it in? Realistically to give a little buffer. I think we could do 1200. All right, 1200 it is. Watch what happens to the fixed cost number. Ready? What's that number now? 84%. 84% from 92 to 84. Okay, we're moving in the right direction. What else? I think we take a look at those subscriptions. I want to be realistic, like 220. Okay, from 295 to 220. All right, fine. What else? So the child activities includes this swimming. You know,

we have them in swimming for the next eight months. I just don't think private swimming it will be sustainable after that eight months. And so I'm not wishing, you know, if we have to, if we have to somehow exit it as a sacrifice to lower these fixed costs and maybe I need a slap in the head, that like this is one of those tough calls that like maybe next year, right, if we can somehow get a slap in the head. Stephanie is the one who wants it. So when you say, if I need who's going

to slap you in the head, you know, I just feel like it is one of those fixed costs that that we can change right now. Why is everybody walking on eggshells right now? If this, I feel

“like it's something we can change. Say what you want to say, Chris, you direct. I think we should”

remove it. I think we should delay it. Okay. I think so. So Paul, Paul, for now, for now. Yeah. Okay. So that means zero. I mean, that, that's, is that just the swimming or is that some, they also do some of the summer stuff. There's. I think it had the music therapy and stuff in there, but that's done for now anyway. So we don't want right now it would be zero. Yeah. Sometimes the simplest thing you do is just get clear on what you want and then say it. The dancing around is not just from the

other person. It's coming from both of you inside. Yeah. Like what you're really trying to say is, I want somebody to say that we can't afford this, but I am not saying it. So somebody up there

We can't afford it. I love that. I don't usually love that phrase, but right now I love it. Okay. $0.312 in child activities getting dropped to zero. Whoa. What's that number? 77%. 77%.

Okay. Let me just pause here for a second. How are you both feeling right now? I feel fearful

that we're house broke and, you know, there is an unwillingness right now like we're not going to sell this. We are in our dream house. Okay. We don't plan to move again. But I do feel like a f*** up as far as, you know, being okay with the move last fall. Do you see how you got to this point? Oh, yeah. Yeah. By feeling the need to reassure and acquiesce to Stephanie, Stephanie, by saying, I want this, but also not running the numbers, but also Kristen run the numbers either.

“Like, you were co-creators in this. Yeah. But the fact is you're here. I actually think, first of all,”

I just want to say from a, how do I feel perspective? I think you've made some pretty good progress.

That was actually really impressive. I just want to take a second and give you a round of applause.

You didn't get stuck. So I'm impressed. I'm impressed. I can sense that everybody's feeling a little bit stuck. Yeah. It's like, these changes are not making any more changes. Chris, my head wants to go back to income. The only other option, right, is, is can, can, Stephanie, pull in more. Stephanie. I mean, I'm going to have to sacrifice. That's actually the kind of energy I love. I love it. Do you think you could do that, Stephanie? I do. Okay. Yeah. And is there

a possibility of Chris earning any extra income as well? My job is unionized. I get three grand,

“two, seven grand a year added to my salary every April. So my, you know, if you look at the”

curve of my income, like, you know, in six months from now, it'll go up by it. Actually, it'll go up seven K next April. So even if I did nothing, my income will be double within 20 years. Like, I will be making 200 grand, you know, in today's money, you know, 20 years from now. Stephanie, are you aware of this? Yes. What does it mean to you when you hear that? Not a ton because it doesn't help us now. See what I mean about living in the future versus living in the present? It's going to go up,

which is going to bring your fix costs down naturally. But we also got to be a little bit more diligent about the earnings and the expenses. Would you agree? Yeah. All right. So at $400 a month for your credit card debt, it's going to take you about three years to pay off that 10 K. Yeah. It's quite interesting. If you make it $500 a month, you can pay it off in two years. What does that tell you? Put more as much as on debt as we can? Yes. And also, these random expenses that you're buying that oftentimes,

you say you need. Yeah. I need to pay off my credit card debt faster than I need. Whatever

arbitrary thing came up today. Basically, when you really break down what you need versus what you want,

it can be very stark when you're honest with yourself. What are some examples of things you have

“spent money on that you could have rather put the money towards credit card debt? So wearing lessons?”

What else? Well, nonsense. Take out eating out that kind of stuff. Stuff you have nothing to show for at the end of the day. How often would you say you eat up? Oh, gosh. At least twice a week at home with the kids. So we do like a Friday night and then once on the weekend. And then it's like random like breakfast or coffee while we're working. How many times total? Coffee, dinner, lunch, take out whatever delivery. So for me, I probably on myself probably three or four times the week to the kids.

Okay, six Chris, I'd work probably almost every day. I'd quote unquote using my, you know, guilt-free spending, whatever. But five. Yeah. All right. So what would we say six plus five, 11, 11 times? A week? Probably more because I'm not even getting into the math, but it's usually triple whatever people tell me. Whatever. That's a lot. You could knock off a year of payments with and you could still actually eat out. You could still do a big family dinner. You decide when

maybe once a month. If I'm in sacrifice mode, I'm doing once a month. It's a big thing. We're not a big dinner. It's, yeah, talk about it. We put out the options. Everybody votes. It becomes a

of our lives, right? You know, the discipline, the sacrifice that's needed. But also on top of that, we don't have a clear vision as to why the sacrifices is worth it. Yes. And I'm only now seeing

why that, like, that's very critical for you. Yeah. To see that, that'll allow you to make these sacrifices

without, you know, you're still going to be stressed, et cetera, but you're still going to be like, oh, this is what it's worth. Like, this is the why. Yeah. Now, if we do all that stuff going back

“to the CSP, Stephanie, do we talk about your earnings? No, not yet. Did you agree that you could earn more?”

Yeah. Okay. How much could you earn? I think at least 6,000 a month. Okay. What would the net be on that? With removing, like, benefits and taxes and stuff? It would probably realistically be more, like, five grand total, right, like, or you want me to put five grand here? Sure. Because that

changes things. Watch. Now you're at 67%. That is a good number. Okay. To me, that's pretty impressive.

67% is impressive because you have your debt payments, which will be 400 bucks. Those will be paid off in a couple of years, well, at least the credit card will. So you knock off at least a couple of hundred bucks. Actually, all of that. So it's 500 bucks because you're going to knock it off in two years. Then we're going to drop it down to zero. You're now at 63% not to mention, Chris's income has gone up by a bunch. So you're actually below 60%. Guys, that's that puts you in a phenomenal position.

You now have hundreds of dollars extra per month to be focusing on things like investing savings account, paying off the mortgage and on and on and on. That's a really good position to be in. What do you think? Yeah. I think we both feel less stressed. You have a vision of where you're going. So it's like when you get up for work every day, you're not just going to work for a day. You're actually working for a rich life. And when you have a reason for the things you're doing,

you can take more arrows than anybody thought possible. And you actually better yet might actually come to enjoy it because you see the connection between your work and what you're able to do. Now, can I just point out a couple of other things here? If you were to increase your income Stephanie and we do all this stuff we talked about, you now have $3,400 a month in guilt free spending. That's obviously too much. Yeah. Yeah. That's 31% and the typical number I recommend is 20 to 35%

but because you are in aggressive debt payoff mode, that number should probably even be a little less, maybe like 15%. So what do we want to do with that money? We probably want to put some towards an emergency fund. So what I just did was I put $1,250 a month in an emergency fund. I actually think it should probably be a little bit more because right now you have 1,600 bucks.

“You guys need to get that number to 42,000 at a minimum with three kids. You need to be your”

fixed cost time six minimum. So that'll take a while. It'll take years. But what you've done is at least you can see you have 500 bucks a month going to investments, 1250 going to a emergency fund.

I would sure like to see that at 2000 or more. What do you think? I think it's amazing. Yeah.

I do have a question. I'm curious about that. Sure. And until the credit card line accredited is paid off, would it not potentially be a benefit instead of 1250 into the this the emergency fund? Maybe clawing that back quite a bit and applying a grand of that to the debt repayment to try to get to pay the debts as fast as possible. Does that make sense? It makes sense. Yes, you want to pay off your debt because you're paying interest.

But also, what if you theoretically put all of your money towards debt and you start paying it off rapidly

“and then one of you gets laid off or injured or something like that? What do you have to fall back on?”

You're right. Yeah. You need that. That buffer. You will pay interest by virtue of the decisions you've made that have brought you here. So just accept it. Minimize it. Like paying an extra $100 saves you a year of payments. Do that because a hundred bucks is nothing. You can find that easily. Yeah. But also accept that you're going to pay thousands in interest. That's just the decision you made. So prioritize it. But also, you need to be saving for your emergency fund. What stood out to you

most about today's conversation? Stephanie? That while, yeah, it's about the numbers. It's not about

not dancing around the issue. And then using, we both were doing it using each other as the excuse for an action. Powerful. Okay. Chris, what about you? What surprised you? I mean, definitely

I got myself in how emotional I got and how, you know, I really need to, you know, it's always

been on the back burner to do my own therapy and we've talked about couples therapy. It's still worry about Stephanie in the sense that like, and I get home after this, how upset she'll be that,

“you know, we might be taking them out of swim, right? Or like, you know, I think now that we've done”

this, and there's a vision, I think they'll be meaningful change, right? Like, from the ability to make sacrifice. And like you said earlier, just where it's strong and capable of doing this. Yes, very powerful. Both of you are strong, capable people, parents, professionals, partners, and although it might feel uncomfortable to know that your partner is experiencing some type of distress. You're both going to feel distress because you're like turning a ship around in a completely

different direction. I feel release that we have a plan and a direction and that we're both

on the same page with it. We're going to get to their fallups in just a second, but I want to give

a huge thank you to Stephanie and Chris for being so vulnerable and so open with all of us today. Did you notice in today's conversation, how much time we spent on the numbers as opposed to their communication and psychology around money? I noticed that we knocked out the numbers in about five minutes and it's interesting because I see a lot of internet comments that say, "Remete, you spend too much time talking about feelings. Just give me the numbers. I would have said exactly

the same thing when I was starting with money, but I want today's discussion to tell you why I do things the way I do. I can tell you right now if we hadn't spent hours talking about how they really feel, there is no way they would have attacked that CSP and brought their fixed costs down by 30%. Money is not just about numbers. That's the point of this entire podcast. It's deeply intertwined with our feelings, with our psychology, with the way that we were brought up in our

cultural background and our unique personal experiences. Don't skip that. The point of living a

“rich life is not to be efficient. It is to create and live and enjoy a rich life. If we simply”

skipped over the emotional and psychological aspects, we would never uncover the real reasons

that we behave the way we do with money. It's not enough to just know the numbers. You've also got to master your psychology and that is a gift to be able to understand why you do things the way you do. Stephanie and Chris, they made huge strides today. I want to encourage them to keep going. It's probably going to take seeing a therapist probably together. It's going to take a lot of practice, but they took the first step today and I'm rooting for them. Now let's check out their follow-ups.

Hi Remy. Chris and I just want to say thank you so much for having us on. It was really valuable having an impartial third party. Look at our finances and our dynamics from the outside and

“your insights were really helpful to us. We have had weekly money dates. I think we've had about”

three so far. We meet during the week in the morning on the same day and they've gone really well. Those conversations are way less fraught than they used to be. We each take the lead and the respective areas that we kind of have been in charge of and it's a really good back and forth and it's really helped us stay on the same page and have a positive kind of dynamic around money discussions. We also have shortlisted couples therapists or NR in the process of bucking me and

great to find someone who's a good fit. So in terms of the changes we've made, we canceled and were refunded for swim lessons so that was the first thing. We've cut our subscriptions by about 75 percent so we're down to $88 a month. For subscriptions we have managed to keep our grocery bill to under $300 a week which will bring our monthly total down from $2,000 a month to $1200 for groceries which is huge. We've also deleted the takeout apps out of our phones and we are doing

family either takeout or meal twice a month and that seems sustainable for us right now but we're open to re-looking at that. We have stopped using our credit cards completely and have paid off our

to different nursing positions and I interviewed this week actually for a position that is

higher paying on the one I have now and would bring me up to full-time hours and in addition to that I was offered the opportunity for a position that is completely outside of nursing and it would be like a project management video production position and I'm in the process of meeting with

“the board of directors and negotiating pay and everything around that so I think everything is”

heading in a much more positive direction now that we have kind of a vision and a plan together and we just want to say thank you roommate for helping us get there we really appreciate it. Hey roommate it's Chris. Firstly I just want to personally thank you and of course Stephanie and I want to thank you and the whole team for everything you've done for us. The past three weeks have been really life-changing in the sense that I already noticed a huge new positivity

from Stephanie and from both of us we've been meeting every week to talk about the CSP and the

changes that we're making basically no more egg shells and I came home one day a couple of weeks

ago and Stephanie had posted this as well as the joke about being on the same team and that's

“that's what we're striving to do so we've cut a lot of subscriptions about 75% of the costs”

luckily a lot of these subscriptions I used for work so I put them on my work budget which has been great we've at least for the last three weeks successfully cut our groceries down to about 300 a week so 1200 a month so that seems to be doable the girls we did end up cutting the swimming and getting a refund but luckily we have added them back into music therapy which starts in a couple of weeks and that's something that they both really enjoy and it's it's much more affordable

and within the CSP our meetings are every week it's been positive and I've seen you know great

“change in mood and you know there isn't we we have to bring up the eggs shells if if”

if we have to sort of say what we mean with each other and and that's the goal we may have basically

full time funds coming in on Stephanie's side which would really help finally and probably most importantly for me is on top of looking into couples therapy I've been inquiring for personal therapy for myself as well so we have coverage for a certain amount of therapy and I'm currently inquired and currently booked for consultation with the therapist so again thank you so much everything's been so helpful in us getting our financial vision and beyond just our finances

but more of more of team energy together period thank you so much bye if you want my help with your specific money questions you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply or you can become a member of my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching in money coaching you get access to monthly 90-minute group coaching calls with me we go deep on a single money topic one that has been transformative to me and you have

the chance to ask me questions in our live Q&A plus you'll get access to a community of other people like you who will inspire you and push you to live your rich life check out money coaching at iwt.com/moneycoaching