A Divorce Attorney's Guide to Staying Together... and Not Going Broke

like the breakdown of relationship has made me much more aware of how love isn't permanently gifted its loan.

“The truth is, with some very limited preventative maintenance,”

I think money and love are very similar in that way. The best advice isn't that sexy. There are little habits you can do every single day that are going to improve your situation and that are going to pay dividends over time. James Sexton is America's divorce attorney.

He is one of the most sought-after experts on getting divorced and surprisingly staying together. We talked for so long and covered so much good ground that I'm actually splitting this conversation up into two episodes. So today you're going to hear his advice for people who are getting married. In a few weeks you're going to hear his advice for people who are thinking about getting divorced.

Divorce can be really expensive and he has incredible advice on how to separate equitably.

But today we talk about what people should know before getting married. It's the only contract that you don't actually sign. You sign a marriage license, but it doesn't have the terms and conditions in it. Some little known facts on what's actually enforceable in prena. One of the terms was for every 10 pounds that the bride gained from the date of marriage

to the date of what was called an operative event. So separation or divorce, she would lose $10,000 a month in Alamani.

“And which financial arguments he sees become the most toxic?”

It's dangerous to not know where the money is and to have some general sense of things. But I have to deal with people's willful blindness all the time. When it comes to custody, when it comes to finances, those are very dangerous financial habits. Because what you don't know can hurt you. I'm Nicole Lappin.

The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for somebody real. Sex in welcome to money rehab. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Great to have you. We've been trying to do this for a while. I know we've been like ships passing in the night, you know, so I'm really glad we finally made it happen.

But I think we're both busy people. So that's a good sign. It's true. You know, I heard that you said you didn't get into divorce law for the money.

“Obviously, we were money rehab. So you wouldn't know why then did you head into it for what?”

You know, I was a psychology major as an undergraduate. My minor was in substance abuse counseling. So I wanted to go into a helping profession. I didn't have any aspiration of going into law. I wasn't really interested. I mean, you know, nobody ever says like, man, I went into social work and being a therapist for the money. So really wasn't a money thing. My mom, my mom was like as far left leaning as a human being could be. The dad was a Reagan conservative, naval academy graduate and my mom was like almost a Marxist.

So I never think I had a choice but to be a lawyer because I had to see both sides of every issue because they disagreed on everything politically.

But we're married for 50 plus years till my mom passed. So they made it work. But I remember my mom used to always say that money's only something you need in case you don't die tomorrow. And my father didn't share that view. It was a Reagan conservative and he was very into like, you know, minimizing taxation and being successful in capitalism. And my mom was very progressive and left. So I saw kind of both sides of things.

But I was really motivated to do something. I didn't want to be the kind of person who spent five days a week looking forward to two. I knew that. And I knew I didn't want to spend 50 weeks a year looking forward to two. You know, I just felt like there's something wrong with that. So I were Brit grind paradigm.

Yeah, I mean, just anything that you're doing just for the money. Like I didn't want the majority of my time to be spent doing something just for the money. I wanted it to be something that for lack of a better term like turn me on. Like turned on my brain and made me feel excited. And at the time, I didn't know it was going to be divorce law.

And then when I realized it was law, because I'd always enjoyed to date,

extemporaneous speaking, and I have a performer streak. And I'm chatty if you haven't figured that out already. I wanted to be the strong silent type, but I never worked out. But I remember thinking, you know, if I could find a way to use sort of the course skill set of who I am, those very authentic aspects of self and make a living at it and help people ideally in the process that that would be amazing. And somehow, all of that converged in divorce law and now after a 25 plus year career, like I'm still as excited to go do that job every day as I was the first day I did it.

So that's a really wonderful thing. And I feel, all of the things I'm grateful for and I'm grateful for a lot of things. I feel like that might be the biggest thing other than health. The fact that I love what I do for a living and I'm excited to do it. Like, by Sunday afternoon, I'm kind of like, oh, I can't wait to get back to it. It's weird and wonderful.

I love that. I feel that. Yeah. Yeah, it's real. Yeah. You said your parents were married for 50. Yeah, 50 plus years, yeah. Has going into divorce law sourd you on the idea for a meal?

And I, I think we're most alive when we're with presence of death. Like when we when we think about the fact that life isn't permanent, we're most acutely grateful for it.

“I think when, you know, like when you have a bad cold for a couple of days, you're just like, oh my god, if I could just breathe,”

like I would just be so happy if I could just breathe. And then you get over being sick and for a few days you're like, oh, I can breathe. It's so good. But like you didn't wake up today and go, oh, I can breathe and I'm not coughing. But like what a blessing that is, you know, so I think if anything like being around people who are in the wreckage of, you know, weaponized intimacy, you know, like the breakdown of relationship has made me much more aware of how love isn't permanently gifted, it's loaned.

And that we want it and we chase it so badly and when we don't have it, we think about all the things we'd be willing to trade for it and all the sacrifices we would make if we could just have it. And then we get it and we kind of go like, all right, well I got that now and I don't have to think about it anymore.

But, you know, the truth is with some very limited preventative maintenance.

I think money and love are very similar in that way that like the, the best advice isn't that sexy. Like the best advice is pay attention, you know, pay attention, take it seriously. They're little habits you can do every single day that are going to improve your situation and that are going to pay dividends over time. Like that's true about mine is true about love.

So yeah, it hasn't made me, it hasn't sourd me on romance at all.

“I think, you know, sometimes people say to me like, oh, do you still believe in love?”

You know, and it always strikes me as someone saying like, do you believe in gravity? Like, I don't have to believe in it, it's real. Like it's all around me. Like if I denied it, I'd be a fool. Like I see it everywhere, I feel it all the time.

I think it's the deepest thing in all of us is the desire to love and to be worthy of love is like everything. Well, I think they're similar in so far as when you don't have both, you're more acutely aware of that. Yeah. And healthy people have many wishes, but sick people just have one. Yeah.

And so I think they're similar in that sense. Yeah. And as you think through your profession, you got divorced for you a divorced layer. I wasn't there. Yeah. No, I was, I married my college sweetheart.

“So we moved in together our junior year of college.”

We got married at 22 and had our first child at 24.

Which I didn't realize how young that was until I had 24 year olds. And, you know, now my sons are 26 and 29. And when I look at them, I kind of go, oh my God, they trust me with the kid. You know, younger than that age. But we were sort of too young to know.

Like I had long hair in a motorcycle and tattoos. And she was like blonde with big boobs. Like what more could you want? Like that's all you needed for life to be perfect, you know. And at the age of 19, that made sense, you know.

But eventually we figured out like that was kind of all we had in common, you know. And she's my wife is still one of my favorite people. She's been remarried for 15 years. We had to spend some time together or all this sun got married a few months ago. And I love spending time with her.

I love spending time with her husband. There are a lot of people I love. I wouldn't want to be married to. Actually all of them, you know. Like there's there's love and marriage, you know,

are two very different kinds of relationships necessarily.

And I don't know that there's always a positive correlation between the two.

But I certainly learned a bit from my own divorce about how even the friendliest divorce and we had an incredibly friendly one. And we had a really friendly co-parenting relationship. I mean our kids were five and seven when we got divorced. And we co-parented really, really well through adulthood.

But it's still as painful. It's still as hard. It's still a transition. You know, changes good, but transitions are hard. And it was a hard transition.

But it definitely taught me a humility about what we think we know when we're in love. And that love is a feeling and a reflex. But it's also a verb. And that the way that you love someone, it may not be the way they need to be loved. You know, my ex-wife is now remarried for 15 years.

And her current husband is a wonderful guy. But we are almost nothing alike, you know. Like he's the quiet type, he's a therapist. He's very chill, very patient. And I'm kind of none of those things.

Are you dating now? Um, dating is not my priority. I joke that the laws like the harshest mistress because it's absolutely impossible to plan your life in any way. Like a social life in any way. Because on any given day, I can say, okay, I'm going to be free tomorrow.

and you end up either writing a motion all day or in court all day. So after a lot of post divorce attempts at having a stable relationship with another person, I think I came to the realization that a lot of people in my profession do who do it at the level I do it, which is you either have to be in a very established relationship that you have the ability to sort of say, hey, I'm going to be totally unreliable.

But I'll see you when I see you. And you have that bond that's deep enough.

“Or you have to just say, yeah, this is like not something I have the bandwidth for.”

Because I think a lot of people, and I see this representing celebrities, like, a lot of people think dating a celebrity is going to be really fun and then they do it. And the person will say, like, yes, she thought it was really fun that I was like on set and that I was traveling to all these things. And then after a little while, the reality of that is like, oh, this is really not fun.

Like, it's really not fun to have a partner that you just never know when they're going to be around

and they're constantly canceling plans. And so I think that, you know, there's chapters in life and that's not the chapter. When you do date, what's their reaction to the fact that you're a divorce attorney? Um, I think that, you know, it's an interesting profession. So I think people find that interesting.

I think anytime I talk to anybody, they find it interesting. It's an interesting job. Yeah, I mean, it's an, yeah, I'm, I'm a tattooed divorce lawyer who does media stuff. It's kind of weird. Yeah, it's a whole thing. Um, I don't, yeah, I think that it's, it's an interesting for anybody.

It's an interesting thing.

“Um, but, you know, again, like, I think what's interesting and what makes good ingredients for relationships”

or sometimes different. Like, I've, I just finished a case where I was representing a woman who's married to a very successful chef. And she was saying how when they dated, like, it was the coolest thing in the world dating a chef

because you could get into any restaurant anytime and like they would always bring you in the back.

And yeah, and like, and at home, yeah, he would, like, make cool stuff for her. She's like, and then we, like, settled in together. And every holiday, he's not around. Like, especially all the ones that people would normally go out to dinner with their loved ones. And she's like, every weekend he was working and the hours were insane.

And then, like, at the end of every night, like, all the servers everybody gets together and they don't have drinks. And there was always, like, young hostesses, you know. And she was, like, just in practice, that is not a place to build a stable life. If that's what you want, you know. So, I think what makes for an exciting boyfriend or girlfriend versus what makes for someone that you can have a stable relationship with.

And a lot of people, although they might say, oh, I just want to have fun. How long do you really just want to have fun for? And if you just want to have fun, like, what would you be looking for if it's just somebody fun? Like, you could find somebody other than a late middle-aged, you know, dude. So, I think that it's, it's definitely a question.

People, I make a living off the fact that people don't ask themselves practical pragmatic questions when making decisions about their romantic relationship. But you helped them do that. And you actually say that people should talk to a divorce attorney before they get married? So, yeah. Why?

Well, I mean, if you weren't trying to learn about how to keep your car in good running condition,

“I think the last person you should talk to is someone at a car dealership.”

I think the person you should talk to is a mechanic. To tell you all the things that could go on. Well, they're going to tell you, here's all the points of failure.

Like, on this particular car, the brakes always go.

Or the engine needs this kind of maintenance and they could give you the preventative maintenance. But you go to a car dealership, they're going to tell you, like, it's like, go to a bridal show. Like, they're just going to tell you all the wonderful things. They're not going to talk about anything real and pragmatic. And by the way, people often don't want to hear it.

Like, they don't want to hear it. We're in that lofty, heavy romantic space. If you say, by the way, you're having fun up there. But can I tether you to the ground for a minute? They're like, no, like, I'm having so much fun up here.

And I don't blame them. Like, it's lovely. Like, there's another early days of any relationship as the greatest intoxication ever. We fall in love incredibly fast. And we fall out of love the way we go bankrupt, very slowly, and then all it once.

And that's, you know, a lot of what my messaging is. You can't, there's like no course to take. There's no, you know, there's nothing special to do. There's no product to buy. It's really about, like, paying attention and making very small, preventative maintenance choices in your relationship.

Just staying connected to your work. Like what? So let's be Debbie Downer. What would you tell somebody before? I don't think it's actually Debbie Downer.

What I would tell people is, you know, look at your relationship at the risk of being unsentimental. A little bit like a job. Like you, when you're unemployed, you want a job. Like you'll take any job, but you want to career. Like you want something satisfying.

And so you put on your best suit, and you get your resume out there.

And you leave the interview, and you call everybody you know, and you go, oh my god.

“Like, I think I did, I think this was good.”

I think the interview was good. And it's not just like a job. Like this has growth. Like this has growth potential long term for one K benefits. Like this is like, this could be a career.

This isn't just like a gig, like a hustle. Like this is a thing. This is it. And then you get the job. And you show up.

And you're like, oh my god, it's my first week of work.

I can't wait. And you're like, get your new bag or whatever it is. And you're so excited. And for a little while, you're still in like a few months. And you're like, yeah, it's my job.

Well, relationship's the same thing. Like you, you're looking for your person. And then you find your person. You're like, oh my god, I think I found my person. And you tell everybody you know, I think I found my person.

And then you like do the whole pageantry and the ceremony of it. And then you get them. And you're like, oh, I cool. I got this person. And then you just start rolling your eyes about the person.

And you stop really doing the things you did. Like the giving them the grace that you were giving them during the. And again, there's a level of like, you know, you know, rosiness that I think is delusional. Like when you, you know, when you have on rose colored glasses, all the red flags look like flags.

So I'm not saying everybody should just, you know, stay in that space of just giving their partner the grace forever to do whatever they want. Like you do in your first dating. But I do think there's a difference between that. And like, you know, you know, women were in relationships that are doing the like, oh, yeah, my husband and my boyfriend.

We all know the guy who's like, you know, my girlfriend, like she's most loads some harpy ever to castrate a man. You know, like, and you just sort of look at them and go, why? What are you doing? Yeah.

Like there's eight billion people in the world.

“I didn't have to ask yourself if you should be in the relationship you've already answered that question.”

But I, I think you're absolutely right. But I also think that you don't just go from that like intoxicated madly in love. There's eight billion people in the world. And you're the one I'm picking to, you know, like there's this slow slide. And I guess all I'm trying to say is it doesn't have to go that way.

Like if you, I really think there's little unsexy things you can do. Like, what does it take to send your partner a text? Hey, I heard that song on the radio today and I was thinking of you. What does it take to leave your girlfriend and note that says, Hey, it was so fun hanging out watching Netflix with you last night.

I have the prettiest girl in the world. Like, what is that 30 seconds? Doesn't cost anything. Who wouldn't want to get that? Who wouldn't want that note?

Who wouldn't want that little text just saying, you're so handsome. You're so beautiful. I'm so lucky. Like, what does it take to do that? It takes almost nothing.

But there's this feeling of, well, I don't owe this person there. And you're absolutely right. You don't owe anybody anything. Like, you don't have to be in a relationship. But if you're going to be in a relationship, wouldn't you want to, like,

give and radiate that same kind of connection that you would love to have from your partner?

“And by the way, isn't that the best way to know if the relationships worth having?”

If you're radiating that in their direction and they're not radiating it back, then maybe that's when you go, okay, exit visas are imminent here. Because that's the best way to do it. But like, don't complain if your partner isn't, like, honoring you and making you feel seen and loved.

In the same way that you're not honoring them and not making them. Yeah, be the change. Also, my husband and I talk about each other as boyfriend and girlfriend. Is not. And do you do?

I'm thinking my fiance too, because we were all of those things. And don't you want him to be your boyfriend forever? And don't you want to be his girlfriend? Absolutely. Because there's nothing more like your girlfriend.

You're constantly trying to close the deal. And you're girlfriend.

You're finally trying to impress.

And I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be a level in a long-term relationship of, hey, I don't have to put on this persona. I can just be my messy self. I think it's one of the most beautiful things about being in relationship. But there is real value in still making your partner feel handsome and smart and capable.

Like every single man in the world gay, straight, all of us. Open a jar of pickles in front of us. So I can't get this open. Whatever age we are, we can't wait to be the hero. We can't wait to open that jar of pickles for you.

Like there is no one who doesn't want to be of value and purpose to their partner. And it's not that hard to make someone feel seen and loved and important. And I tell my male friends all the time. I particularly my heterosexual male friends. I tell them all the time.

Like, you know, when they send a text to their wife or their girlfriend in the middle of the day, just saying like, oh, I was thinking of you. I'm like, that's the equivalent of her sending you nudes. The understand, like, that's like, it's literally the same thing. It's saying like, you're special.

I see you. I haven't forgotten you. You're on my mind. You're in my heart. That takes nothing to do.

And I really think it's the antidote to the slippage that occurs in the absence of that kind of thing.

you think that the commonality to mitigate getting to that.

Ikie divorce place is just doing those small things. Yeah, they just stopped doing the thing. They stopped doing the thing that they used to do. One or both of them stopped doing the thing. Now, I'm not suggesting there aren't people who choose a partner who is incompatible with them,

where there are fundamental differences. Or where there are some intervening circumstances like mental health issues, substance use issues, you know, that that impact what was a functional relationship. But most of the time in my experience, we want to point to big things like infidelity and financial impropriety and say,

that's the reason we got divorced. But I tend in 25 years of practicing divorce law and representing the cheater and the cheatered on the perpetrator of domestic violence and the victim of domestic violence. Like I've represented both sides of every single issue in 25 years. And I've represented people from Main Street to Wall Street.

I've represented people who were, you know, the beginning of my career was like cops and teachers. And now it's hedge fund managers and celebrities. And we all suck at this, by the way. Like it's the great commonality. Great equalized.

It really is. Like it really really is. Like I represent someone who won an Emmy and I represent their housekeeper. They're in very different tax brackets and have very different life experiences and their marriages failed for very similar reasons. Because this is not something that you're just born with knowing how to do.

“I think it's actually a teachable skill, though.”

Like we spend a lot of time trying to teach the quadratic formula to people and teaching them that, you know, like sodium and chloride to table salt. I agree. It's fully none. It's like none time when I love it. But understanding like how to have a conversation with your romantic partner,

like the importance of checking in with them, how to tell someone something they don't want to hear in a way that doesn't make them instantly defensive. Like those are really, I think easy, teachable skills. Like how many men I will tell you, I've met so many men who one of their chief complaints in their marriages. We, we used to have so much more sex and now we don't have as much sex. And if you say to those guys, have you ever brought the topic up?

They'll often say, "Oh, yeah." And I'll say, "What did you say?" And they'll say, "Hey, why aren't we having sex as much as we used to?" And like, "Did you think that was going to go well?" Like that's an accusatory way of bringing that up.

It's going to bring out nothing but defensiveness. I'm like, "Where else? Didn't anybody ever tell you?" Like, there's another way to have that conversation. Like, "What if you said to her?"

You know what? I happened yesterday.

I was driving past that restaurant that we went to on like our third date.

I don't know if you remember it. We drove past it. And I was thinking about how like we went out on that. And then we literally didn't leave my apartment for two days. And I was thinking about like how like, "Oh, my God, that was like so much fun."

“Like I remember when we were like, "We never care in the world."”

And we were just, "Okay, now you've primed the pump." Like you're bringing her back to this shared memory that the two of you had. And now like, "Now you're there." And you're kind of like, "Oh, she's there with you." And she loved that moment too, you know?

And now we're not bringing out something defensive. Like every couple, like I guarantee you and your husband have some core memories from the early days of your relationship. That when you go back there in your memory, you're wild about him again, the way you were back then.

And he's the same way towards you. So bringing the person back to, "Why don't we teach people this? This is so easy. It's so it doesn't cost anything. You don't need to take a whole course.

It's just a simple way to talk about things. In a way that doesn't bring up defensiveness. But we don't teach this to anybody. We'd rather so derision and division and have the girls' versus boys' conversation that the algorithm keeps shoving down all of our throats.

Where everything wrong for women is men's fault. Everything wrong for men is women's fault. Every time a woman says, "Man, it's really hard to be a woman. Men are conditioned to hear it as, and it's easy being a man." And similarly, when a man says, "Man, it's hard to be a man sometimes.

Women are conditioned to hear it as, "Oh, and it's easy being a woman."

“That's what the algorithm shoving down our throats.”

And the truth is, a world where women are flailing is not a world where men are thriving.

And a world where men are flailing is not a world where women will be thriving. We need each other. We're stuck with each other. This is a knife fight in a closet. It's not going to end well.

You know, just start stabbing, like the lights are off. We're going to hurt each other. So why don't we stop and try to hear each other a little more? And start to sort of have the conversation be one about, I don't know what it's like to be a woman.

Help me understand that. You know, you don't know what it's like to be a man. I'd like to help you understand that so we can love each other better.

Because I don't just want to love someone.

I want them to feel my love. It's not just communicating. Everybody says that's the key to it. But it's how you communicate. I love when people say like, you know,

I mean, we're both imperfections where everybody just loves to give these platitudes that sound more like a roomy poem than anything of value.

“You know, like, well, you have to invest wisely.”

What does that mean? Like, ten people could define that differently. You have to communicate better. What does that mean? Like, I need practical answers.

Like, what should I do with my money? Should I be in bonds? What should I be doing? Like, I need practical wisdom. You know, I want real advice.

Same thing with this. Like, communicate. Do you stay connected to your partner? What does that mean? Does that mean we should have a date night?

Does it mean we should go on vacation? More? Does it mean I should send her a telegraph? Like, what give me some practical solutions to this very real practical problem I'm having? And I'm all ears.

“And I think that's what the world is not getting when it comes to relationships.”

Well, divorce. Everything is so expensive and so draining. Yeah. Getting married is not. Do you think that there should be a higher barrier to entry for marriage?

Yeah. You know, it's a great question. I think it's the question where people should be asking. Everybody's so caught up in, like, you know, no fault divorce made it too easy to get divorced. And it's like, that's like saying, like, well, you know, like hospitals are so easy to get into now.

So that's probably why people, like, break their limbs more often. And it's like, no, I don't think people are making causation. Like, I don't think that you, I think you got it mixed up. Like, if you wanted to increase the success of marriages, you would make it something that you have to work a little harder to get. You know, it's the most legally significant thing you'll ever do other than dying.

And when you do it, no one explains to you legally what you just did. Like, you've offered out of the title system. Yeah. But like, it's the only contract that you don't actually sign. Like, you sign a marriage license, but it doesn't have the terms and conditions in it.

It doesn't say, by signing this document, you've opted out of the title system, opted into a system of spousal support. And by the way, it can be changed by the state legislator of the state in which you reside at the time of the divorce, which could be changed anytime. But you're, when you sign, you sign up for all of them.

“You sign up for all, well, that's why I always tell people every marriage has a pre-nup.”

Every marriage has a pre-nup. It's either one that's written by the government and gets to be changed by the government without your consent. Or it's one that's written by the two people that claim to love each other more than the eight billion other options. Now, to me, whatever your political leanings left, right, or the disgruntled middle.

The truth is, at some point in the last 15 years, you've looked at the government and went,

"What are these people doing? They should not be in charge of anything." Okay? Whatever side of the ironic, at some point in the last 15 years, you've looked at the government and said, "I don't trust them." Okay? So, why would you trust a future government of a state that you don't know which state it'll be that you'll be residing in in the event that your marriage ends?

Why would you trust that future imagined politician with making the rules set for your marriage? That's insane. But people do it all the time. Because it's easier to just trust that than to have a potentially difficult conversation. We talked a lot about pre-nups on the shows, so I don't want to get into the blocking of tackling.

We'll link some of those episodes and show notes, but I do want to ask you about what's enforceable, because you have a story of somebody you've represented at blew my mind about what's enforceable or not. I was always told that the crazy clauses, like the weight gain clauses or the fidelity clauses, the hanging out, the in-laws clauses, all of that stuff, were not enforceable.

Yeah, I don't know who's telling you that, because the truth is, they are enforceable.

It dispends on the jurisdiction that you're in. And the UK certainly has a less enforceability approach towards pre-nupsual agreements, but the major states, California, New York, Florida, like they have contract laws very well settled law. Now, what I think a lot of people are probably mistakenly characterizing as the pre-nup-nup being enforceable is a pre-nup that's not drafted properly. So, for example, a fidelity clause that does not very clearly define with specificity what is in fidelity for the purposes of that clause,

and it doesn't specifically delineate what the penalty is and the penalty isn't so severe as to make the entire contract what's called unconscionable, which is a deal that is so unfair and lopsided that no reasonable person would offer it, and no fair dealing person would ever accept it with full knowledge of facts. Like, yeah, if you don't draft things the right way, they're not enforceable. That's how pre-nups work. This is what people tend to do is they tend to, like, go online and find a $20 pre-nup, you know, that they or they have clawed or, or, you know,

chat GPT do a pre-nup for them, and then when it fails, because it was badly drafted and then ever showed it to a lawyer, they go, oh, pre-nups aren't enforceable. Okay, that's not, that's like me trying to build a car from spare parts I found at a junkyard,

It doesn't mean like a Volvo wouldn't be super safe. So I think those clauses can be an arm.

“I mean, that case is a factual case. You can look it up. I mean, it was a, I didn't write the pre-nup,”

but it was a well-drafted pre-nup, and it was a very wealthy man. It was marrying a woman who'd been a model for extended period of time, and the economy between the two of them was fairly clear. Like, he was rich and she was hot, and that was kind of there what they both brought to the table. And they had a provision in their pre-nupial agreement. Again, I didn't write it, but it was written by a very experienced attorney here in New York, who was very reputable and a good-drafts person, a crumudgeonly-drafts person.

And it defined that one of the terms was for every 10 pounds that the bride gained from the date of marriage to the date of what was called an operative event. So separation or divorce, she would lose $10,000 a month in Alamooney. And you know, there was even a procedure as to like what her base weight was at the time of marriage, and how the weight would be determined for the purposes of enforceability, which again, for me as a lawyer was what I was interested in. So I would do the way in when I got married with like pennies and my pockets, and like I'd be wearing my heavy shoes.

And then when I did the way in at divorce, I would be like a wrestler wearing like the sweatsuit in the sauna, you know, to try to be as light as possible. But- >> Or you wouldn't marry this cookbook. >> Well, that person, the judge said, the judge actually said, this is a bullish clause. The, you know, I don't, I can't imagine why you married someone who insisted on having this clause in the agreement. However, it's a contract, and you were both represented by council. >> She read it, she knew what she was saying. >> She not only read it, she was represented by council who made modifications to it.

Like they made modifications to that provision. What some of the evidence that came in at the hearing was prior drafts. And there had been like multiple revisions to that provision, so that they both like found a common ground, and it was bargain for consideration. And she, by the way, she still got like $50,000 a month in Alabama, and these were, these were people with literally billions of dollars. >> And you represented this, dude? >> I represented the dude. >> How that, you feel?

>> Um, you know, I represent the client, and I represent the system, and I don't always believe in the client, but I always believe in the system.

>> You didn't believe in the client.

“>> I mean, I believed in him to the extent that I have to do the job, but you know, any time somebody says to me, how can you represent this person?”

Whether it's a perpetrator of domestic violence or someone who is bullish in that way. My attitude is if you don't believe in our legal system, it's a fundamental tenant of our democracy. I have, maybe I'm overly patriotic, but like, we have a flawed legal system. It's the worst one in the whole world, except for all the other ones. Like, I think we have a pretty good job of it.

And so it requires zealous advocacy within the bounds of law. So I'm not going to like go to batten, bend the rules for that guy, but I'm going to do my job. >> I didn't like that. >> I don't hang out with any of my clients, like they're my clients, they're not my friends. They don't want me to be, they don't want to be friends.

Well, I'm not very fun to have as a friend because all I do is work.

And second of all, like, you don't, you're hiring me to do a task.

And my job is to go in and do that task. I'm a weapon, really. And a weapon in the hands of someone who's trying to protect people is a really useful, positive force for good. A weapon in the hands of a villain is incredibly dangerous and does a lot of damage. So I have the pleasure of occasionally getting to do a lot of really good for a worthy person.

Sometimes I represent an awful person. One of the things I said to my son, my older son is an attorney himself now. He doesn't do family law, thank God. I said to him when he went to law school that the truth has a way of coming out. Like in court, the truth has a way of coming out.

Sometimes despite my best efforts to the contrary, the truth has a way of coming out. When I lose, I don't usually get out lawyer. I lose because the truth comes out, despite my best efforts to obfuscate it, throw up red herrings to track the court's attention from it. It has a way of coming out.

Our system works a lot of the time.

“But, you know, is it, does it feel good when you're representing somebody who's doing so?”

I mean, that was just sort of, look, I don't feel too bad for that woman. Like she signed this thing. Like she married this person. And by the way, he was Ogrish. Like this was not a guy.

Like, you didn't look at these two people and go, oh, yes, they must have just met somewhere in fell in love. You looked at them and went, oh, he's rich and she's gorgeous. Like, there's no. And by the way, they're didn't seem to be a lot of substance to her. And there was absolutely no beauty to him.

So they both knew what they signed up for in that transaction. Like, I, I felt bad, represent and something. That marriage. That marriage. Yeah.

That was a transaction. That marriage. Listen, I use very unsentimental language when I'm talking about marriage.

And like any economy, I mean, you understand economies better than most people.

And economy is an exchange of value. You know, so how many apples is an apple worth? Well, it's a dumb question. Apple's worth an apple. But how many pineapples is an apple worth?

Okay, now we're having an economy, right? So it's harder to grow a pine apple and you have to bring it from different places. So there's going to be more apples and exchange for pineapple. Okay. What is willing to pay for that?

What is beauty worth? What is love and affection worth? What is financial stability and security worth? How much of one will you trade for the other? That's what marriages are.

Like, you didn't get married because you and your husband Bring exactly the same things to the table and you're the exact same person. Like, you don't need another person to be you, you're you.

“Like, but can you learn everything you need to know about yourself from yourself?”

No. Like, can you see your blind spots? No, that's why they're blind spots. So you get into a relationship because there's some polarity. And because the other brings other things to that economy.

So I don't think it's a dirty word. Like, I think if we really broke down your marriage or any marriage, you bring certain things and he brings certain things. And sometimes it's the same things we listen to each other. We support each other.

We have affection for each other. We give each other physical affection. But I bet there's some things you bring to the relationship that he doesn't. Some weak spots that you shore up in the relationship. And he's probably got some strengths that, you know,

to shore up things that you aren't as strong in. And that's the beauty of a good relationship is that you have some similarities and some polarities. And it's like just a healthy little ecosystem that the two of you developed together. For sure, I didn't want to marry myself or sleep with myself.

Absolutely. But let's dig into the enforceability of this prenapped clause. Prenapped to contracts. So, hold on. Laura Walser was on the show.

Sure. You know, a lot of Laura Walser. Yeah, I actually sent a lot of business lore. She is such a badass like you. She's great.

Incredible divorce attorney.

Yeah. She came on the show and said that these clauses around sex and weight. Because there have been some gnarly ones that she's seen too. Yeah. Are not enforcing the episode.

I was shouting at my radio. But yes, I have a radio. Yeah, well, my car is called at the radio. But yes, I was listening to the podcast. Yeah, I mean, listen, Laura and I might respectfully disagree on this.

“I think that California is a little different than New York.”

And she's a California lawyer. So I will say California, for example, in prenaps is not as generous when it comes to total waivers of spouses support whereas New York enforces that. Maybe New York is more mercenary than California. I mean, I guess I wouldn't be the first person to say that.

But yeah, I'm glad that she wasn't giving that advice to the New York audience. Because we would have to agree to disagree on this. Or maybe it's just the lawyer. So maybe she got it. I mean, Laura is without the question.

One of the best divorce layers in the world. So I certainly would not ever bet against Laura in a courtroom. I send a lot of clients in her direction because there's a lot of people that are New York City and LA and they have homes in both especially celebrities. So we have these jurisdictional battles sometimes of which place would be more favorable.

And anytime it's a client that has some potential connection to California, I was sent him to Laura and her firm. Laura is not a one woman operation. She manages an excellent firm and has nothing but an A team of people in there.

So I always feel very comfortable sending people to her.

“But yeah, I mean, I think we might disagree on our experience with this.”

I think if there is a place to attack something, Laura will find the place to attack it. So I don't find it hard to believe that she has probably managed to find little a vulnerabilities in those contracts and found ways to try to set them aside. That's why. But I will tell you, I bet if anybody I know could do it,

drafting a prenapped provision, for example, with a fidelity clause or a weight clause, that was the most likely to be enforced. It would be Laura or someone on her team because those are very high level attorneys. And most of us in the high net worth high level space, we all know what to do to make something enforceable.

So it sounds like you can put whatever you want in a prenapped. The enforceability is up to the talent of the lawyer. Yes. And just like look at a prenapped like any other contract. So for example, a non-compete, right?

Like if you make a non-compete that is too broad or has no duration to its time limitation, it will not be enforced. So you can put anything you want in a contract. The question is, will it be enforceable? And if it's not enforceable, will it set aside everything else in the contract?

Will it create a house of cards that when that clause falls, the rest of the thing falls, too? So an artful drafts person is going to draft a prenapped should agreement, where there are what we call non-severability clauses, which say that if one clause falls, the other one stay in full force in effect, and we're going to very clearly define things and make sure we do it in a way

But I will tell you, I mean, I consider myself a very good lawyer.

I have had a very low level of success at setting aside prenapped short agreements. I mean, and I think most very skilled attorneys probably Laura included will tell you when it is a well crafted prenapped short agreement drafted by an experienced attorney, where both parties were represented by council when they executed it. If you are the party trying to set it aside, you are in the disadvantaged position.

So I don't, you know, listen in a court room and a negotiating table. I'll say whatever crazy thing I need to say to try to get the job done. But behind closed doors, somebody comes in to me and says, "Yeah, I hate this contract that was negotiated fairly drafted by skilled attorneys and we were both represented by council."

I'm going to say that I'm listening, I don't think you have a good chance. We can put on a show, we can do the best we can. We can try to use the potential expense of trying to set it aside, you know, like nuisance value. By the way, most good prenaps have provisions and them that say that if you unsuccessfully try to set aside this prenapped,

or you asked for relief outside of this prenapped and you're not granted.

“By a court you have to pay the reasonable council fees of the party who was trying to uphold you.”

Meaning, if you try to get out of that prenapped and you know you signed it and did all the things going into it, but then at the end you try to say, you try to set it aside later on. That you should be responsible for the reasonable legal fees of the person seeking to uphold the contract. It's to prevent nuisance value suits.

Where a person comes in and says, "Listen, I know I'm not getting this prenapped set aside, but I'm going to make his spend $50,000 in legal fees." So if you give me an extra 40 grand that I'm not entitled to, I won't make you go through that exercise. It's the disincentivized that.

So if you're a regular person trying to get a prenapped going to like helloprenapped.com, something like that. That's my competitor, trusted prenapped is my company. Trust the prenapped going online to do something that's pretty boilerplay. Yeah, yeah.

You just want to make sure that you have a lawyer for each side taking a look at it.

I think that's always good, and what I will say is even though my company trusted prenapped

and helloprenapped are sort of competitors. I know Julie and her team at helloprenapped and they have an excellent product as well. We have a slightly different system that we use in terms of our software interface and the AI behind our products, but they have a good prenapped. They put together a good prenapped, they have good legal minds behind it.

Laura is actually an attorney advisor for that company. My company was crafted using my stuff and so many attorneys that I work with. But we all put together prenaps that we know are enforceable and that are, you know, include thankfully we've leveraged both companies of leverage technology and experience to create prenaps that are customizable within the state that you're in.

But both helloprenapped and trusted prenapped and any attorney who is worth listening

“to will tell you, you should bring it to an attorney and have it reviewed.”

And both helloprenapped and trusted prenapped have services where you can bundle in and we have referral attorneys who we've vetted very carefully. Both companies do that. So, you know, there's a right way to do things and all of the companies that are doing that in the space that are well known, helloprenapped trusted prenapped.

We all do it the same way to something to create, which is we all want it to be a carefully crafted customized document that you should take to an attorney and it should be an attorney who's been vetted and is a specialist in family law and knows what they're doing. And you can put those crazy classes in there if you want.

I mean, you can, again, I don't encourage people to put those classes in. I don't think that there's a lot of value in putting those classes in. Like, I think fidelity clauses is the most common thing that people talk about. Like, I'm only once or twice had someone suggest a weight clause and you just have to

give them the look, and most of the times, like, you never mind.

But like, fidelity clauses, you can have whole, like, a couple times a week. Somebody will suggest a fidelity clause to me. And I have to have the very harsh conversation with them about the fact that is this really going to disabuse anybody of cheating. Like, do you think anybody is ever thinking about cheating and then goes,

I don't want to have a $10,000 penalty for having head sex with this other person. And by the way, like, you know, let's put this in a really personal context, you know, if you went home and said to your husband, you know, I met like four guys when I was in New York. I really wanted to have sex with.

But, you know, we're married and we promise we're not going to sleep with other people. So I'm holding up my side of the bargain. Do you think you would go, that's so great, baby. You're so awesome. Like, if he said that to you, you would be like, don't do me any favors.

You met a bunch of women you want to have sex with them then. Like, like, I don't think, I think in the right permutation of monogamy,

“you should have sex with as many people as you want to.”

And that would be just the one, right? Because that's the one you chose. Whether it's someone you're not. Whether what would you feel good if somebody said, listen,

Like, no, I'm not going to sleep with other people because I don't want to sleep with other people. Like, I'm not going to eat because I'm not hungry. Like, I'm not going to have sex with other people because I'm happy having sex just with you. Like, I would not want someone to say, you know, I really want to have sex with other people. We signed a contract.

Like, that seems insane to me. So the fidelity clause usually looks like what?

“If somebody cheats, you have to pay a penalty.”

Do you agree with the penalty? Do you agree with the penalty? Lower Alamoni. It could be that. That could be the penalty.

It could be a lower Alamoni. I mean, there used to be in New York and many other jurisdictions. If you could prove adultery, the person couldn't ask for Alamoni. And that's why, like, the image of the divorce lawyer sitting next to the private investigator with binoculars and the camera, like with the telephoto lens, it's like ingrained in people's cultural memory.

That's been gone for a really long time. And improving adultery in court is surprisingly difficult. Like, in New York, we had to prove it's called inclination and opportunity. So inclination was you had to show that there was some tangible evidence other than the testimony of the power more, the alleged power more, the other person they're supposedly having sex with.

Because they didn't want it to be weaponized, like to call people as witnesses. So you had to have some third party evidence. It would be like a letter or a photograph of someone going in and out of a hotel. There's something that shows that there was an inclination that they were attracted to each other. And then opportunity, meaning that they were somewhere where they could have had sex.

Which, by the way, is the funniest thing in the world. Because, you know, we've had cases where it was like, you know, dentists having sex with their dental hygienists. But it's not like they were going into a motel. They would just have sex in the dentist chair, you know, or in the office. You know, like people have sex in offices all the time.

So it's-- It's-- On a being that dentist chair. You don't want to be in that dentist chair. Oh, yeah, but although, you know, there is, it's lots of sanitary stuff around.

I guess it's a sterling environment. Just not sexy.

I've never been in a dentist office and thought, like, oh, yeah.

You know, it's not really a sexy environment. But who knows, maybe there might be dentists fetishes out there. But there's some sex clauses, too. Like, we have to have sex, a certain. You have to put that in there.

I mean, the question, like, as a lawyer, it doesn't matter what I know. What matters is what I can prove. So if somebody says, like, oh, I want to put in a clause that talks about how often we have sex. How are you going to prove how often you had sex to make that clause enforceable? Like, a clause--

No, it's not enforceable. It's not enforceable. Why have, you know, or ring those or ring really good and know you're having sex? I mean, Apple watches, like, sometimes you're having sex. I just think you're doing yoga or going for a walk, you know?

Okay. All right, so we'll get off the prenapped soapbox.

“Everybody you should have one otherwise.”

It defaults to your state. Well, everybody has one. It's just should be one that the two of you write. You've seen anecdotally, though, that people who have prenapped our less likely to get divorced. Yeah, look, it's an unfalseifiable premise.

But what I'll tell you is the following. Because the thing about prenapped is they're not filed anywhere. Like, it's not like it's on contract with the state. And that it's like held somewhere and that you can look up someone's prenapped. That's not how it works. Like, the prenapped is in the safe of the lawyer who drafted it,

and each party has a copy of it. Like, that's where it is. Like, I've seen celebrities on TV being interviewed saying how they don't have a prenapped. And I'm like, yes, yes, they do. It's in my safe.

Like, I've joked that if TMZ went into the safe in my office, the bolts safe, and like they would there would be so much stuff in there. Because there's so many people's prenaps and like thumb drives that have like video evidence of people. Like there's all kinds of chaos in there. I love to get into that.

Yeah, I would finally leave me like it's fascinating. The people who work for me have to sign NDAs all day long because you learn so much stuff.

And you'll never look at people like I can't watch TV.

Because I invariably see somebody that I'm like, oh, he likes feet. You know, like I just know stuff about people all day. I wish I did like feet. Lots of people like feet apparently. I don't know why it's not my thing, but I don't want to yuck anybody's young.

It's not on my business. If it makes you happy, it doesn't scare the horses. I don't care.

“But the truth is, there are there are a lot of, you know, really personal things you learn as a forced layer.”

I mean, about a lot of people like a huge cross section of humanity. But I guess what you could infer is that if somebody can have that type of conversation going into the marriage, it's more likely to be successful. I believe that because I believe having the prenapped conversation is actually quite romantic. Because I think at its core, it's a conversation about what do we mean to each other and what do we owe each other.

And, you know, there's a song by Prince. I was a big Prince fan. There's a great song by Prince off the album sign at the time. It's called, if I was your girlfriend. And it's a song sung by a man to his girlfriend.

But the idea is, if I was your girlfriend, like if I was friends with you, like instead of being your boyfriend, if I was your girlfriend, and the lyrics are like, you know, would you let me dress to you? Help you pick out your clothes before we went out? Like, would you let me do your hair? Like, and it's just this, like, how would our relationship be different if I was your girlfriend instead of your boyfriend?

And one of the lines is, would you run to me if somebody hurt you even if that's somebody was me?

And I always thought that was such a romantic line.

a future imagined version of them. And so to me as a man who wants a woman who I'm in a romantic relationship with to feel protected. Like, I want you to feel protected from everything including me. Like, I want you to feel safe in this world. Like, I've represented victims of domestic violence.

You can't feel loved if you don't feel safe. Like feeling safe is the most fundamental aspect of love. And so really what is love that feeling like your heart is really safe with this other person. And so to me, like the most beautiful thing about being in love is that like, I'm going to show you all the parts of me, even the parts that are weak and I'm ashamed of.

And you're going to say, oh, I see them and I love you anyway.

“Like what a lovely thing, what the best thing in the world that is, you know?”

So to me, like part of making someone feel safe is what do you need to feel safe in this relationship? And like, I do a ton of prenobs. And I just finished one last week where, you know, it was starting to turn to like a heated negotiation because the lawyer on the other side was treating it like you would treat the negotiation attend to a divorce, which is the total opposite of a prenob.

Like, instead of two people that have decided they're ending their romantic relationship,

these are two people who have chosen each other out of the eight billion options.

And are now trying to like start this process. So it created this like disconnect between the two people. And they were like getting into positional bargaining where it was like, well, he wants this. Well, I want this and it was like positions. And you know, I'm sure you're familiar with the story.

I used to teach a negotiation class at NYU. And it's sort of lemons, you know, sorry about the lemons. So if I'm talking to you, it's a, it's a, it's a point about positional bargaining. And why positional bargaining is inferior to principle-based bargaining. So if I, if I have a lemon and you want a lemon and I want a lemon, okay, but we only have one lemon.

What's the fairest way to divide the lemon? Split it. Split it. Split it in half, right? That makes sense.

No one would argue with that. Great. You wanted the zest for baking. I wanted the juice for lemonade. We could have had a hundred percent of what we wanted.

If we just taken a second and said, wait, what do you need a lemon for? But instead, we just go, well, let's cut it in half. And you got half of what you needed and throughout the half that I wanted. And I got half of what I needed and throughout the half that you wanted and we're all poor for it. Why?

Because we didn't say out loud, what are we doing? What do you need? What do you want, right?

“So that's what a pre-nup conversation should be.”

It's a conversation about, what are you scared of? Like, what are you afraid of? And by the way, like, as someone who's a fan of therapy and in therapy,

I think the most powerful question you can ask when you decide to go to therapy is,

what is that I'm afraid to feel? Like, what is it I don't want to feel? When I pick up a drink or I pick up a drug or I go to work for 14 hours a day and like, you know, just focus only on that. What is it I don't want to think about?

What is it I don't want to feel? What do I want to get away from feeling, right? What am I numbing with exercise or work or whatever your choice of drug might be, right? So ask yourself, what is it I don't want to feel? What is it I'm afraid of?

And I don't think it's crazy if someone has a tremendous amount of resources. For them to say I'm afraid you're going to take these things I work so hard to get. And the other person saying, okay, but I'm afraid that like, you're going to leave me and I'm going to have like, we're gone so many opportunities and reliance on the fact that you have so much and we're going to share it. Nothing with those is crazy.

Like, those are both really fair things to be afraid of.

“So how if we love each other so much that we're about to get married?”

Can't I make you feel safe and you make me feel safe and we can figure out some accommodation between these two? And by the way, you're preying up can be like your estate planning. Like, whenever somebody says to me, I don't do wells but if somebody says to me, oh, should I have a will?

The answer's always yes. And if they say, when should I do my estate planning, I would say early and often.

So do it as early as you can and do it frequently. Go back every couple of years and redo it. I mean, when you tell I've listened to you, when you tell people to make financial plans, you don't say make it once and then set it and forget it and never think about it for the rest of your life. Constantly revisit it.

Constantly look at does this still make sense? Am I applying a rule set that no longer makes sense for the circumstances of my life? So I think it's the same thing. Do your pre-nuptial agreement and then do addendums or modification agreements every couple of years when your family dynamic changes or your asset profile changes or your life circumstances change.

It doesn't it can be like a marriage, a conversation that's an ongoing conversation. How romantic. Say, I told you, but don't have to be not. Can you also include financial infidelity? You can. I mean, look in any contract you can include all kinds of things.

The question is, do you do it in a way that it's enforceable? But yeah, I think that there should be some provisions. There can be provisions about maintaining certain financial transparency.

Financial infidelity or sexual infidelity?

I think they're the same thing. They're betrayal. They're betrayal. They're betrayal of trust. That's what they are.

And they're a betrayal of trust very often motivated by the same underlying problem. Like, I've represented so many people that have cheated and so many people that have been cheated on. And not one of them ever got up and said, "I'm going to screw up my life today." And I'm going to screw up the life of this other person who I'm going to have an affair with. And then I'm really going to screw up my entire family that I have.

I just think that'd be fun. Like, no one does that. Like, it really is that there's just some human need for attention, affection, desire. Someone's feeling unseen, someone's feeling whatever. And again, I'm not saying that excuses it, but it explains it a little bit.

And what happens is you make a series of small bad choices. And then you get so far from sure that, "Well, I'm this far, I might as well keep going." And that's how these things happen. But it's the same underlying issue, which is it's a series of bad decisions and bad choices. None of which seemed gigantic at the time you made them.

None of which were designed to screw your whole life up.

But ultimately have that effect.

“So I think any kind of betrayal is very painful and it's hard to recover from.”

What kind of financial fights or arguments in a relationship are most toxic? I mean, I think leverage is a big thing. Like, how willing someone is to extend credit and to be in debt. I think that's a conversation a lot of people don't have. About like, what is your comfort with a debt structure?

Because those are two really big things. But what does money mean to you? Like, what is it? Because money is not about money, you know that. I mean, you talk about that all the time.

Like, it is about money, but it's not about money. It's not about the past. The past. It's about the past. About a million things.

Yeah, it's about well indeed.

As someone who grew up without money, I remember thinking money was essentially like a symbol for everything I didn't have. So like, if I had money, I would have stability and security and safety and I would feel worthwhile and I would feel successful. And how's that worked out? You know, you get money. It's nice.

Like, I've been broken. I've been rich. It's way better to be rich. It's really, really nice. But money offers you real solutions to imaginary problems and imaginary solutions to real problems.

Like, it's, you know, it's kind of like all technology. It's an improved means to an unimproved end. Like, it's more money fixes money problems. Like, some problems are very easily solved by money and that is the greatest blessing in the world.

“To not have to think about how am I going to pay for my health care?”

How am I going to, like, the fluctuation and the price of eggs does not affect my day-to-day life in the way that it used to. You know, like where it was like, okay, I have some choices I have to make. I can either have this or I can, I can put gas on in my car and get to work. Or I can eat something other than ramen. You know, like, or I can go out with friends and eat their coleslaw and pickles because I can't afford to order something at the diner.

Like, I've made those choices before. I, I, I, I've made the choice of I can put money in my kids five twenty nine this month. Or I can put money in my 401(k) this month. Like, I've made those choices before. Not having those choices is a beautiful, wonderful thing.

The fundamental problems of life. My mother having cancer. I could throw all the money at that you want. I got a slightly nicer room. It's loan catering.

But it didn't solve the problem, right? Because it can't. Like, the problems of loneliness, it can't really solve that problem. And if anything, it can just, you know, really distract you from what your real problem is. Like, I represent a lot of incredibly wealthy, very deeply unhappy people.

Like, many of whom have addiction issues. Many of whom have mental health issues. Many of whom have terrible issues with their children. Like, money, we all know that. You don't have to watch that much, you know, internet to see how miserable many celebrities are.

It's why they're adult with addiction and mental health issues and constantly in legal trouble and constantly getting divorced. Because it doesn't solve those problems, those fundamental human problems.

“But is money still something of incredible importance?”

Does it bring great value? It can certainly upgrade your misery. You know, it definitely won't buy happiness, but it'll upgrade the quality of your misery. That was part one of my conversation with James. Make sure you're subscribed to money rehab, so that you can hear a part two when it comes out in a few weeks.