July Bonus Episode: Digging Into Exhumed with Aaron Mahnke

A very special Morbid. A special Morbid. Welcome, Erin.

“Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming.”

Weirdos. Today we have Erin Manky on the show. You probably know him from his award winning podcast lore or perhaps the author of some of your favorite titles. And we have exciting news. Your latest book exhumed comes out August 4th. It does so soon. So soon. So soon. Too soon. Congratulations.

Thank you. You're welcome. This book is amazing. I got an early copy of it. I feel very fortunate.

Yeah, you're on, um, you're on the back. Oh, that's so cool. I didn't even know that. Right right at the top. Oh, look. Oh, look at that. You're on there with Amy Brooney. Oh, oh, yeah. Kindred spirits and of those hunters and Josh Gates. Oh, yeah. Oh, so good company. Good company. I feel good about that. The very tall. Oh, look at me. What do you think, Brad? I love it. It's an amazing book. It is like lore on crack. Like it is so much

information that is so interesting. It had like my husband started reading it and he was like, this is amazing. Let's do it at one point. Yeah. It's phenomenal. Thank you. So good. So years ago, a couple years after I started lore, I created a podcast called Unimskured. And the idea was, you know, we spent 30 minutes on a topic on lore, but what if we spend a whole season on attack? And

love that. The first season is on the Salem Witch trials, which still people listen to like every

year that I get questions about it all the time. It was 10 episodes, you know, like 45 minutes a piece. And there was so much fun in spending just all that time exploring a big topic. Like you can really take your time and dig deep and build a house, right? You can take your time and we did four seasons of that. And then I heard canceled it. But it's exhumed in some ways as sort of like a

“fifth season. Yeah. No, it is 20 lore episodes. It feels like that. It is. Yeah. That's why I love”

it. It was like very homey. I was like, oh, I'm ready for this. Yeah. It's like a good read for like a thunderstorm. You know, that's the vibe of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I like to approach my writing style for things like this as a little bit more lighthearted. And I don't want people to get bogged down in technicality. Right now. While at the same time, there is some teaching that has to go on in the book. And we can we can explore that. Yeah. And you know, when you say that,

that is what I noticed immediately about the writing style is it doesn't bog you down with all these like technical things. But it's giving you the information. But I felt like you were talking to me about it. Yeah. Could you have like a little side where you'll be like, right? Well, like, you know, to me, it felt very comfortable to read. And there's a few dead jokes. I apologize, maybe a little bit. You got a little bit of the dead jokes where you can. Yeah. I expect it. It's

my right. Yes. Absolutely it is. So in exhumed, you examine the mercy brown case. But that's not all. It also really examines like the attitudes about life and death that led up to and continued after that case. You've been asking on lore the question, why for a long time, what was the thing

that made you want to explore it so deeply here? Well, Mercy Brown was the very first episode of

lore. So we're talking in March of 2015, you know, almost 12 years ago. Yeah. I probably wrote it about 12 years ago, this coming November. Oh, wow. And at the time, it was a, it was a cool, creepy story. Yeah. That's probably all that it was. And it's like, local. Hey, folks, have you ever heard of this before? Let me tell you about this, right? And you know, and I built that episode. It was only like 12 minutes long. Because I was still trying to get my feet on the ground. Like,

what is this format even supposed to be? So there's a little bit of vampire and premature bear, at least some safety coffin stuff in there. But it's mostly about Mercy Brown. Yeah. And when I wrote and told the story in the podcast, I thought folks just need to hear this wild story. But then what happened is I kept making lore. And as the years went by, I would, I would write and publish another episode and think, you know, that kind of, this sounds weird. That kind of smells like

the Mercy Brown story. There's some aspect of it that sounds, it's almost like it's from the same family. I wonder why I feel like those are connected. And I like puzzles. I like, I like Riddles.

“I grew up playing games like Mist in the 90s. Mist, totally shit. Oh my gosh. So it's like, you have to”

pay attention to sounds you heard and what's seen and then you're using them as a code somewhere else. I thought, and I was just filing away certain episodes as I went through making lore. And I thought, oh, this, this really does feel like it might have some bearing on the Mercy Brown story. And I just kind of gathered those pieces together. And at some point a couple of years ago, I realized, this is a book. I need to write about it. You know, yeah. And so the idea was, yes, we've

the format that people typically bump into it with errors and all. And then at the end of the book,

“the last 20% is really covering Mercy story. But that first 80% of the book is all those other”

stories that I bumped into along the way that help explain the why, like you said, why was it, why was it thought that what they did to her post-death was an okay, acceptable thing to do. How was that a valuable question? Yeah. That was a question. Why did they think, okay, let's do that, you know? And it really works too in the book because like you said it begins with her and ends with her. And when you eat up all that in the middle, when you get back to her, you're like, oh, okay,

like it does, but you're like, oh, shit, okay. This doesn't seem as crazy when you put it in the context of all this other stuff. Exactly. You know, once you talk about talking blood, it's like,

oh, yeah, that's not weird. We want to talk about talking, there's a lot of blood in the book actually.

There is a lot of blood. I'm a metaphor guy. And I tend to tell people that, look, when we talk about context, what you're talking about is like 3D glasses at the movie theater, you know, if you watch the movie without them, it's going to look a little weird. Yeah. I'm not going to get the whole picture. I was trying to tell you. But when you put the 3D glasses on, all of a sudden,

“like things are moving at you and you really get a sense for what's going on, that's what context”

does to a story. Whether it's fiction or it's a historical exploration like this. Yeah. So for me, I had to equip people so that by the time they get to that last section of the book, oh my gosh, I have all the tools on my backpack that I need to, you know, go through this mission. I can do this now. Yeah. It lets you appreciate the story more. It does. Because you can, like, weirdly sympathize with other people in the story. And that was one of the

surprising things about it. As I wrote it, I realized, oh, they aren't like dumb barbaric people.

Yeah. Right. Like you, because it could come off that way at first. When you hear that story,

yeah, villagers cut open a dead, well, they have chest and, you know, burner heart. Yeah. What does sound about it? What does sound about it? Right. What is that? It sounds barbaric. But when you actually dig into it, it's, it's really human. Yeah. Absolutely. It is, which is so scary. Yeah. No. Speaking of that, the monsters and things that people believe in often tell us a lot more about people than they do about monsters. Yeah. What do you think vampires in the panic around them

reveals about the fears of people in 19th century New England? Well, they were dealing with a lot of disease, you know, at the time tuberculosis was, it had been a thing for a very long time, but yeah, there's just something about, you know, late 19th century that TB was really just having fun. Everything is just gross. Living its life, we're just did, right? Yeah. And so there's this idea that there's this invisible thing that's robbing their loved ones from them, robbing their livelihood

in some ways. It's funny, like, just a few years before, maybe it was a few months before Mercy's mother died in the early 1880s. They had actually figured out what was causing TB scientifically, but that was in Europe and it was, you know, it was like a world away from the farming village outside of Newport in Rhode Island. They didn't get the CNN update. They did not get that. Yeah, there was no alert on their phone to follow up. Yeah. So there's like this, it's like a,

it's like having a phone call with somebody, there's like a massive delay and they just, they just didn't know, even by the time Mercy passed away and that's crazy. It's 1892. They really weren't putting the pieces together. And at the same time, even if you explain it to them, would they were being told, is there's this invisible thing that is making you sick? And at the end of the day that's owned. Yeah. But it also sounds a lot like what they thought of a vampire

was doing or, right? This is the supernatural force. It is an invisible thing that is sucking the life out of them, just in a different way. Yeah, a little more scientific, you know. Yeah, that makes more sense. I feel like a vampire is way more fun. Yeah. I'd rather go at the hands of a vampire than TV. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I would have fallen victim to this whole vampire panic.

“Just, I think I would have wanted for the fun of it. Like, I think I would have chose to,”

yeah, even if I was like, yeah, it's probably for the theater. Yeah, no, just for the theater. The, the, the historian in the writer me wants to say that like, she was the end. She was the end of like a century of stories like hers. Back to the 1790s with Sarah telling us, also an Exeter Rhode Island by the way. Oh, she ended by this little village in Rhode Island. And then they were in between. They were all over. Yeah. Vermont, New Hampshire, everywhere. And we call it the New England

Vampire Panic. But there's not a lot of evidence that people were out there at that moment, saying so and so as a vampire. What they were saying was, one of the people in the grave who died before the sick person who is currently dying is somehow sucking the life out of people. And we, and we know that the word vampire has a history of like appearing on the public record.

the book. Like you see it in newspapers being used as a metaphor for politicians. Oh, yeah.

For, you know, it was an Oliver Wendell Holmes used the word vampire to talk about women,

“which was like the most sexist thing. I take rude. I hope that's why I gave him help for that. But”

it was being used as a metaphor. And you can't have a metaphor unless people understand what the word is supposed to mean. Yeah. So there, there is the assumption that it was floating around outside of Prince Long before. But there's, there's really no record of, it was kind of imprinted on Mercy's story by an outside newspaper when you first see the word vampire show up to them. It was just sort of like, there's something supernatural going on. Yeah. There's something sucking the

life out of you. Exactly. Yeah. Blood sucker. Yeah. Right. Or in true blood of Fanger. A Fanger. Yeah. So just in the book as a whole, was there a chapter that like challenged a belief you held previously? Just kind of like rocked your world a little bit when you researched it. I, that's a good question. The hardest chapter to write was probably the one that was all the philosophy about the human soul. Mm. And that must be found. Yeah. It did challenge a lot

of like pretty deep notions I had going in, which was, oh, they always assumed it was in the heart,

you know, that kind of thing. And they did cut out Mercy's heart. So I'm going to find that. But what I found instead was that it was just everywhere. I was going to say so much more complicated. Yeah. Different cultures had different ideas. Yeah. Same cultures with your multiple ideas. Some cultures that were multiple souls. Like in Egypt it was, it was, you know, at the, at the, at the very minimum, nine different souls. Yeah. That's that different

functions. That's wild. Yeah. So that one really, it was hard to write to just from a philosophical standpoint. Yeah. Like I can explain creepy history and some science. But yeah. We get into the realm of the soul. And what is the difference between each of these nine? It's a little murky. Yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot out of you. Yeah. We have several souls. I have a lot of souls. So she'll slip into an accent. Sometimes it was like, was that a soul? It just happened.

Like it might happen today. Yeah. So just notes soul. Yeah. You know, so it's a no. She's got a few. Yeah. Yeah. I have to say one of my favorite chapters in the book was Corpse Medicine because we covered that pretty recently. Yeah. And I found out so many different rabbit holes with that. So fascinating. What was the most absurd medical practice that you came across in your research? Obsert. Well, so it's all pretty absurd. Yeah. It's all pretty absurd. I mean, we can get

in a blood later. But I think about the the English king was it Charles II who had the drops that

he carried with. Yeah. The king's drops. Yeah. And the first hand accounts of people who had

consumed them and what it was doing to them. And then you realize that the two main ingredients were high proof alcohol and opium. They were just fucked. Yeah. We wasted. And every time he felt like a twinge of pain, he was going. He was like, oh, just give me the whole bottle. Oh, just drinking them out of skulls too. So no wonder it worked. Yeah. Works in air quotes for a little. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. You throw enough opium in anything. Yeah. It's going to know how it's going to work.

“That I feel good over for some time. In the end, I think he ended up dying of seizures, right?”

Maybe. I don't know. He did. I don't remember. Yeah. After a long term, you said, well, I want to assume he was also a hobby elchemist. And at that time, elchemists in general tended to work a lot with mercury and like boiling it and creating vapors from it. And so they just consumed so many toxic chemicals. Yeah. I mean, Isaac Newton was was gray. And I think in his 30s, when they when some of his journals went up for auction back in the 90s, they was in the 90s

with the 80s. They opened up one of the books and found strands of his hair in there and they had them tested. And they were their mercury levels were off the charts. That's crazy. It's no wonder he couldn't eat. He had digestive issues. Yeah. died young. Oh, my god, mercury will mess you up. Yeah. We just talked about that at our live show. It's called the Matt like Matt Hadder, Matt. Yeah. That had to be poisoned by the vapors from mercury. Yeah. Exactly. It's crazy. Yeah.

“That's nuts. Yeah. That's I think that's what happened in that that podcast. Um,”

S town. Do you remember that podcast? I do. I haven't finished that. Mercury. I don't know. It was some kind of point sitting like that. Okay. That made some shit go down. I'm actually kind of surprised that I haven't got mercury poisoning because I love sushi. So you did. I'm actually surprised you. Yeah. I know. You love the seeing your scrubs. Yeah. But it don't. It's one of those things that we look back now and we say, yeah, my gosh, what were you thinking? It's like a

metal. I know. You're not the odis people dying from that. Yeah. But it's like rainy time. Like in a hundred years, our people going to be looking at us and saying, chemotherapy, are you kidding? Probably. Like, you poison the body to the point of death to kill cancer. Yeah. What were you thinking? What were you thinking? Yeah. What were you thinking? Yeah. Hold in your phone. 217. What's that? How

but they didn't know better. Yeah. You know, they just didn't know anything. Yeah. And we don't

know the worst part is we kind of know better. I know we do know it. Yeah. Yeah. But more we'll come out. I'm sure. Yeah. Sure. Well, they'll find out how stupid we are. It's the next generations, but yeah, it'll be they'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. Now another chapter that I really loved was the hand of glory. Oh, my gosh. I love the hand of glory. It's a wild concept. So crazy. And for people who love to access the rise. That's yeah. Really. And I do. They do love it. Now for people who are listening

to who don't are like a hand of glory, can you give us a little synopsis of what it is? Oh, definitely. So a hand of glory was a tool of folklore. Now there's a couple different purposes with our uses with it. But it starts with literally a human hand. Okay. Often the hand that was

cut off of a thief. Yeah. And that's important because it's a it's an example of what's known

as sympathetic magic. And sympathetic magic is built on the concept of like is connected to like. There's also a branch of sympathetic magic that's like things that have touched something. Have passed on some of their power to things. Yes. But a good example would be most people have heard someone say eat walnuts. They're good for your brain. And then they'll point to an open walnut and say look, it even looks like a brain. Right. Yeah. So there's a lot of herbs. If you go look

through the vitamin section at a CVS or something, you'll see things like blood wart. And a word with wart after it. And it's often named after a body part. And it's because somebody looked at the plant and said, wow, that looks a lot like the human body part. Let's name it after

that. And I bet it's useful in treating that. Right. So that's that's sympathetic magic. It's

this idea that that God wrote the the purpose of a thing into its physical appearance. So within this realm, we have the hand of glory. And the hand of glory was a hand, a human hand. It was often dried, pickled, you know, they drain it of blood. They set it out in the sun. There's a whole recipe in there. Oh, yeah. You know, quoting from somebody from a funeral, you're still a marker. Yeah. Why? You know, you hang it on your door for a while. And you know,

the Amazon flowers. Yes. It's on the door knocker. Yeah. So you can use it in the meantime. And what you end up with is essentially a mummified hand that either wicks are attached to the fingers. I love that. So that you can burn the fingers as candles or the hand is zipped in wax and you simply like the fingers on fire themselves. Like yeah, either way. Because of its association with theft, you had a couple of uses for hand of glory. One is that you could as a thief carry one

with you. And if you had it when you broke into somebody's house, no one would be able to wake

“up from their sleep. It was like cart blanche freedom to do whatever you wanted in your house. Right?”

So it was like, you imagine somebody with it on a chain hanging off your head like I am all set. Yeah. I've got this dead hand with me. Yeah. But then shipped on the other side of it, also connected to theft. People who had a home and wanted to protect themselves could have a hand of glory in the house. And that was supposed to ward off evil. Like a talisman. Yeah. Which if there was a hand hanging off your door, I'm not hitting you. Oh no, yeah. I'm not going

to break it. Absolutely. That would make sense. That's where they mean business. Yeah. So they're not messing around. I take it makes sense. Yep. I love it. It's just, it's delightful. The thing that people had this hang around mounted human hand. Yeah. Yeah. Have burned fingers on them. I love that. I just imagine I'm sorry. I have to go here to smell. Yeah. Yeah. What did that? That was not a yakey candle. No. No. That's not what I look for in a candle.

“You know, but I think everything smelled. That's true. Maybe I think it wouldn't even.”

Oh, yeah. Like you'd be like, that's just another smell. Yeah. Maybe the wax is slightly obscured. The baby. Right. Yeah. You know, for now, they all smelled. Oh, that's for sure. Yeah. It might have improved things. Honestly, I actually, at least you're getting a burning smell. You know, some can't smell everything else. Yeah. No one beneath the streets. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, you know, every version of a hand of glory, I feel like they have like a slightly

different recipe. If you. Yeah. Yeah. Is there one historical account of like a recipe or a hand of glory situation that made you be like, that's enough research for today. I'm going to check out. Through the magic of editing, I am going to, um, I'm going to look really quick in here. It's like I got this. It's like, I'm just going to put out the next 10 minutes of me flipping through. I mean, it's so chapter six is called overly

sympathetic, and there's a, yeah, a lovely drawing of a hand of glory of a little hand of glory. And, you know, I start off by talking about like, why hands? Because hands were like,

“this really symbolic thing and a lot of belief systems. I can't that too. Are there examples?”

You know, like hands, I feel like are individual. I'm a gem and I so gem and I rules the hands.

like a hand person. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's not in the, I tell like that I want it to be in,

but there, there is a really good recipe in here that I just, I was struck by the deliberate nature of it.

“I mean, it's like Betty Crocker's step by step here are very specific things that you need to do.”

Don't measure with your heart. Like, you have three quarters of your man's blood, please. Yeah. And it isn't like vanilla extract. It's really eye-opening. So I highly recommend that chapter. Yeah. Yeah. Get into that chapter because yeah, chapter six, everybody. Yeah. Hands of glory forever. And what's crazy about hands of glory? Like, we were just talking about it. Is that people really believed to this work? Like, really believed? Like, steadfast. Why do you

think that people put so much faith into that specifically? So if all you need is a handful of moments where it seems to have worked for people to say, see, point to like, you know, one of the things that I have in the book is as an article from an Irish newspaper from mid-1800s where there, it's like the police blotter in your local newspaper, right? So and so, how do I break in at her house? But they attempted to use a hand of glory and, you know, they did XY and Z and the thieves

were thwarted. And, you know, you throw a couple of reports like that in a newspaper and people start to believe that, yeah, this is, this is the work. Yeah. I mean, it's like confirmation-wise. But it's also gross enough that very few people actually went about making them. That's true. So there aren't, there's like a pub in England that used to have one on display, they claimed to have found it in a wall. But then it was stolen, irony of ironies. Like, the, a Talisman is stacked with stolen

a couple decades ago and they've never, never got it back. Oh, bring it back. There's also a

museum that has one. But there aren't a lot of them extant. So it's, we also look at that and say, is it just a lot of story with very few examples? People believe that it would work. I mean, yeah, would you have fallen for it back then? Do you think- Back then, probably. I feel like it was. I was ready to just, yes, yes, yes, it's the hand of a thief. That's the thing. I don't believe it now. Yeah. Like you said, you put that on your door.

I'm not coming over. No. It kind of makes sense. Yeah. I don't know if I believe it for the thief. I believe it to thwart again. To thwart. Yes. That's a thing like it. Also the weird thing where you have to douse the flame. Like, there's a story in there about it. And it's a, it's kind of legend. It's kind of fact. But of a pub that was being robbed by a traveler who came, set up the hand of glory, said this magical phrase. And the, the, everybody in the house who was asleep, stayed asleep.

But the, the house made who had been instructed to stay awake and take care of this traveler's needs, uh, was still awake. So she didn't go to sleep. And she was able to run to the kitchen and get

“milk and extinguish the flames. Because that's what you do. You use milk to extinguish the flames.”

Obviously, it's interesting. So hand of glory is the lactose intolerant. Yeah. They go dairy intolerance. There we go. Yeah. Hey. Let's go. A lot of us are. Yeah. I mean, you know, trying to climb. I feel like it would work. It wouldn't work in my house. Now, you have researched for and lower as well. Yeah. So really crazy cursed objects. Where do you think the hand of glory rings among those objects? It's definitely on the far side of like the gross scale. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There are other, I guess more neat and clean cursed objects. Yeah. Like, um, the car that arched to a crossford now was assassinated in, you know, was said to be very cursed and James Dean's car or things like that. But as far as like gross cursed objects. Yeah. That's high up there. It's right up there. I would say so. Yeah. It's a tough one to make. Yeah. Like, you got to get a person to take their hands. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. You got to commit to it. Yeah. I made a lot

of hand puns in that chapter. And I just want to love it preemptively apologize to anybody. They hit

“not even apologize. No, you have to do. Yeah. Never for dad jokes. I never for puns. Do you”

apologize here? Sometimes they just know it themselves. And you have to. You got to take them. You have to take them. Yeah. You can't let them pass by. You're speaking, Artling. You really are. We love it. I feel like we've kind of foreshadowed this topic a bit. Talking blood. I love this

concept. Yeah. I never heard of it before the book. So tell me, do you think that people genuinely

expected the blood to reveal the killer? Or do you think it was more about putting this like psychological pressure on somebody who might confess? It's hard to say a couple centuries later because I don't want to spoil stuff. But there were some fairly recent examples. Non-European examples of people thinking that the blood of like a murder victim would cry out who their killer was. I'm obsessed with that. I do really wish that the social aspect was

understood and known because the idea, just a quickly summarized this, there was this idea that

heard the phrase trial by fire. There's a whole different group of trials. There's trial by water.

“You know, the whole which thing where they ducked the witch on the water does she float this”

she not that's a that's a trial. There's a whole series of trials and they're usually founded in some aspect of Christian theology. And trial by blood is also known as crew enthacion. And it just has to do with this idea that you find a body. Somebody got stabbed. And let's bring all the suspects in and they'll touch the body. And something will happen if the killer touches the body. The the wound that has been closed up will bleed fresh blood or the flesh will bruise.

And it won't do that for innocent people. That was the belief. God was going to speak a truth through some physical reaction. They really did believe it. Like they really did believe that there was a religious aspect of this and then it was happening. But there's really a part of me that I want there to have been like a manipulation going on as well. Yeah. You know, they like the story that I told in the book of one crew enthacion had the entire village processed

through the hall first before the guy that everybody suspected. He was the last. He had a stand-in

line. He had a doubt. What a doubt. And I I want to believe that that was on purpose. Yeah. I have to be ready for some confession of you know, like I won't do it guys. I won't do it. I'll just confess right now. Right. You know, or just watch him like physically melt down as he's about to. It's like yes, innocent people would be like, all right. Well, it's not going to happen. I didn't kill this person. Yeah. But yeah. Like us will just get this over with. Yeah. But there were instances where

it was used and they used the results from these currentation tests in court. Right. Not really. Right. By the way, you're going to the gallows now because you touched the body that had a

sewn up wound and blood kind of in a little trickle of blood. Yeah. Yeah. And they did this. Yeah.

Clearly it was you. Yeah. Right. That's like spectral evidence. It is. It's like that's wild. That that was just used legally. Right. But they also used to think I like in some places or times that used to think that like the last image of someone's killer would be captured in someone's eyes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I love to that. That is right. And they do like all sorts of photography. Yeah. They would try to be. I love to that would be a great episode. I know it's like just in

an episode. Yeah. It's super interesting. No, I wonder. I mean, you answered this question in your book. But why do you think blood specifically became the thing that people thought would reveal this truth? So there are there were moments in writing the book where I thought why am I talking about this topic? For reference, like I sat down on my research assistant Sam and we like I said,

“here is where I think we need to go. Let's build an outline. You'll start researching. We'll find”

places where maybe we're a little off and we need to adjust or we'll expand that kind of thing. And every now and then I had this thought of, is this really important to Mercy Brown? But what you had to understand about Mercy Brown story was that they were looking for signs of fresh blood in the corpse of the, of the, of the supposed, you know, call them vampire, call them a, you know, whatever. Well, why were they looking for signs of fresh blood? Well, blood meant something to people

in previous areas. And it's because they believed that the blood, the human blood was like the connected tissue that held the soul and the body together. And that gave blood a very special power. It was, it was the glue. You had, you had a layer of the human body and you had the soul, the material and the spiritual, but there had to be something that glued them together. And what was it? This is why epilepsy comes up a lot in the dream of blood in the book, because for like 2,000

years, people believed that what was happening in an epileptic's body when they were having a seizure. It was that they were somehow, they weren't dying. They weren't dead. They were like, with a one, one scholar called it quasi dead. Well, not dead yet. They were like almost dead, because what was happening physiologically, their soul and their body were separating. And they needed an infusion of fresh blood to like re-glue them back together again.

“So blood became this really important thing in a lot of cultures for a lot of reasons,”

but it was because there was some vitality in the blood. Right. And that's where like, you have a dead body, but the blood is still, there was an assumption that when you died, there was a linear process. At life, you have runny blood. And as your body decomposes that like congeals, it becomes thicker and thicker until it's just a dry dust in your veins. Right. But in reality, what happens is you decompose and it gets little thicker. Yep. And then you decompose

well, if it's runny, it's got a lot of life left in it. And so that life could communicate things.

“God can use that and point to a killer. It's so fascinating. Isn't it?”

That's so crazy. I understand why they believed it to some extent. You know? Yeah. You can see where it comes from. Right. Like, it's not crazy. No. But it is crazy. It's not that they sat down and said, what is the most bad shit idea? They worked through it with logic. They were, they did. They were doing the best they could with what they had to do. They had no way of knowing that it, it goes from runny to congealed and thick to money again. And

how would it? And so when they see it go runny again, they're like, well, something made that happen. Exactly. Because that's not natural. There must be life left in there. Yes, life. Yeah.

Like, that's wild. Yeah. You also see this in a lot of early vampire folklore in like

Serbian culture where there, there are people who are deemed just more likely to become

“a revenant or a vampire after death. Alcoholics. People who are e-religious. It's essentially”

like you run through the list and you realize it's all the social outcasts. Yeah. It's all the people who did bad things. Yep. Well, it turns out that people who do bad things in society two, three, four hundred years ago, they don't get buried in the same way. They don't get put in a nice shroud in the coffin and buried around that a good depth. They're usually thrown in with just a piece of cloth around them. Yeah. What happens is that makes the decomposition process very different.

Differently, and it would inside of a box. Yeah. And so they go and maybe they, maybe they open the grave by mistake or they go to check on something and they find that the body has done something very unusual. Well, of course it has. Yeah. Yes. It's so different for this moment to have this unusual state. So the other them. Yeah. The formation bias, essentially. Yeah. They built the system that created the bodies that made them believe in vampires, by labeling it. It's just, yeah. It

makes so much sense. Yeah. It was all set up. They're set up to fit. I was just going to say, why are they going to be so? They're set up to be vampires. Right. Right. Right. You know. Now moving just like kind of like parallel here to talk a little bit about lore. I love lore.

Thank you. Lower was the first podcast I ever listened to. And I have to thank Deb Deb,

or yes, I was just friends who introduced me. She wanted to be here today because she was like, I want to be there and thank you. You could get child care. Thank you, Deb. See you soon. I'll she'll die. No, don't die. I'll tell you last. Yeah. But you've been doing lore for over a decade now. How long has it been? It'll be 12 years in March. That's crazy. So I have to ask. What made you start the show to begin with? I know you started with Mercy Brown.

What made you want to go further? I wanted to be a novelist. I wanted to write, you know, like Stephen King type, you know, spooky stories, right? I feel like you could. And yeah, he he dips a lot into folklore. Yep. You know, like like pet cemetery. He's dipping into a gonquin mythology and stories. And I I self-published a handful of thrillers like that. And what I tried to do is I have to go look for good New England things like that and weave them in. We've

so many good New England things. Oh, yeah. And when you weave them in, it kind of grounds it like it people say I've heard of that and it makes the rest of the story more believable. But I would find more than I needed. And so I had this like overflowing folder of stories of like real life things that had happened and and I thought I can't use all of these. But I was also self-published and you know, you'd write a book in self-five copies as little disheartening. So if I could increase my email list,

because okay we have to remember this is like before the podcast wave. This is back when you were at the very beginning. Yeah. Yeah. I mean Mailchimp was barely a thing. Yeah. I don't remember how I was doing my email list at the time. But but I thought I like 60 people on my email list. If I could increase that and then I've increased how many people might buy a book. Yeah. So I thought I'll give them something for free that will be of value and they'll sign up for my email list in return

and I'll sell enough books to buy a cup of coffee. They're gonna be great. Win, win, win, win. That's

“all we want. So I wrote one. It was the Mercy Brown story and then I wrote another. I think I wrote”

four of them and I looked at the PDF at some point I realized holy crap this is 10,000 words. And if the time cell phones were like half the size that they are today. Oh yeah. You know, they were tiny and I thought I'm gonna be giving people a PDF to pinch and zoom and read on this tiny little phone phone. Yeah. It's just not worth it. And so I gave up. I'll just tell it to you. Yeah. I give up. I dragged the icon for this pages file over to my trash can.

it would be more convenient if people listened to me tell them these stories. So my next plan was to record the stories, put them in a zip folder and give them a link to download it. >> Oh my God. >> From gum road or someplace like that. And that was my grand plan. And the audio was so horrible. >> Oh, oh. >> So horrible. >> And there. Yeah. >> I was in the attic of my old house was horse hair plaster, hardwood floors, I key a furniture.

>> Yep. >> Everything was reflective. >> It was pretty much our first class in the laundry room. >> In a laundry room. >> In a laundry room. >> In the attic of my old appliances, right? >> Yes, yes. Yeah. >> I was digging it off of everywhere. >> I might have been actually reading the script off of a glass-fronted monitor, like pick all the things you could do wrong. >> I did them wrong. >> Yep. >> And so I had to put some music underneath it. >> That's one of the things I love about Laura. >> I just had to get as the echo and take care of that tinniness.

And then I sent a couple of them to a body of mine and I said, what do you think? And here's my plan. Zipling, they're going to download the file and they can listen to it however they want and he said, don't do it. Don't do it. This is a podcast. >> Can you say go what's up? >> No, a podcast is like a couple of guys sitting around talking

“about technology. >> Yeah. >> Because that's what it was. >> Yeah. >> Because to make a podcast,”

used to be a highly technical thing. Hosting your file, broadcasting an RSS feeds signal on the internet. >> Yeah, you weren't just doing it from here. >> You guys don't realize what goes into it. >> Yeah. >> It's a little bit easier now.

>> It is easier. >> Maybe too easy. >> Yeah, it's my first 40 million. >> Absolutely, there needs to be

a tax on a microphone. >> Yeah, I think so. >> Yeah. >> But I took him at his word, I said, okay. I think he mentioned serial at the time. He's like, no, there's a real good serial. They're playing with storytelling within podcasting. This is storytelling. You should do it. All right, I'll try it. So at the time, I was a graphic designer. I did branding for companies. So making the podcast artwork was no problem. I went to Squarespace because I had already been here and ads for them elsewhere

and set up a website and figured out how to work through iTunes at the time, not Apple Podcasts. >> Oh, yeah. >> And get it all broadcast. I hosted it on a libson. There was like five bucks a month.

“>> Oh, my God. >> Yeah, it was great. >> What was our first one? Was it blueberry blueberry blueberry blueberry?”

>> Yeah, I remember them. >> Yeah. >> And then I launched it. And that day, that first day, I had nine downloads. >> Oh, my God. >> Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn. I might have been one or two of them. >> But whatever. >> Yeah, there was still a few more. >> Over the last decade, I've met. I think a couple of hundred people who've said, oh, I was, I listened to you since day one. Yeah. I love the, I love the idea of it. >> You're like, no, you couldn't have all of them. You're like,

there's actually only seven of them. >> Yeah, there's it. I want to know the seven people need to stand up right now. >> Yeah, I need to see it. >> Yeah. So, yeah, that was, that was it. >> I love that. >> March 15th. >> What a cool way to turn it, though. That's our favorite way to start. >> And thanks to the friend that made you do that seriously. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Truly. And now,

one of the things I love is the music, but it's Chad Lawson. >> Chad's amazing.

>> Who does the score? >> Yeah. >> The scoring. If you're not listening to Laura, I don't know what you're doing right now because it is the cozyest, like, my kids, like, there's certain episodes that I'll let them listen to if they're not too spooky. And they love it. It's like very soothing in the

“car, like the music, the voices, very soothing. >> There's an ASMR quality to it, right?”

>> There really is. >> Yeah. >> And is there a topic that you've covered on Laura that you, it was like a rabbit hole that you just couldn't get out of and like constantly find yourself going back to you. >> Well, yeah, I mean, maybe not to my listeners delight. I, if I've gotten any compliments, sorry, any criticism over the last decade, it has been why so many which stories.

>> Well, that'll never be criticism. >> Because there are a ton of them. >> And they're fascinating.

>> They're fascinating. >> They are. They're often like about a single community and they have their personal community personality as the projected onto the events that happen. They're always fascinating. And every time a new one comes up, it has a new spin. >> No. >> And to me it's worth telling the story again. >> Right, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> And we've told quite a few, which styles and they're all different and all horrible. >> Yeah. >> But fascinating. >> And I think the Salem which trials, I'm like,

I don't know how anybody gets sick of learning of that. They're hearing about that. >> No. >> I learned something new about that all the time. >> Yeah. >> I think that is one of the most fascinating things it is ever. >> Yeah, and one of my personality traits is I like to tell people they're wrong about something they thought they knew. I take great delight in that. You guys have that in common. >> You guys absolutely have that in common. >> I like to say that it's because I want to be a teacher.

I want to teach them that. >> That's a nice way of saying. >> Yeah, I just like to be right. >> Yeah, that's not right. >> What's your star sign? >> What's your star sign? >> Leo. >> Okay, there. >> Because that fit, I don't know anything about that. >> Yeah, I think so.

"Oh, it was just moldy bread. Why are you spending so much time talking about this?

>> Oh my God. >> No, no, so much more. >> So much more. >> moldy bread was a theory for like one month. >> Yeah. >> And I think 1976. Somebody put it forward in a journal and a month later it was retracted. >> Yes. >> That was it. >> Yeah. >> But it's a simple answer. >> Right. >> And simple answers have the longest legs they go the distance. >> Yeah. >> It pleased the mass. >> Right. >> Which is why so much of what happens in Exhumed stuck around for Selam because in a way they were very simple answers. >> Yes, right.

“>> And they're easier to digest. >> Yeah. >> People can be like, "Oh, moldy bread." That's why that's”

exactly. >> Yeah. >> We'll do that. >> Yeah. Or was a property dispute? >> Yeah. >> No, it wasn't a property dispute. >> I wasn't a property dispute. >> It was so much more than goes in. >> That's a horrifying. If it was just a silly property dispute. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Honestly, those are also probably my rabbit holes and probably yours too. >> Yeah. >> Whenever they lose. >> Whenever they lose. >> I try elsewhere. I can't. >> Yeah. >> You can't look away. I have to know what's going on there. >> I love a witch trial and I love a scandal.

>> Yeah. >> I love a good scandal. >> You do love like an old money scandal. Those are the rules I fall down. >> Yeah. >> So digging, into, there's an Italian witch trial. I want to say 1500s in a town called Triori. TR-I-O-R-I. >> We've heard that. >> We've heard that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That one's it's just so different. It's like a very different aspect of European culture and I think it has a little bit of the drama of life. >> Nice. >> You know, a nasty priest who is, you know, there's abuse and a lot of, you know, patriarchy and full display. >> That's a gully. >> Yeah.

>> Let's go. >> Yeah. >> I love a messed up priest. >> Yeah. >> I do love a messed up priest. >> Yeah. >> That's why I love Midnight Mass. >> Yeah. >> I have to see that. I will say, watch the newest knives out. Wake up, dead man. Oh. >> I haven't seen the newest one. It's really good.

“>> It's really good. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I'll be right up your alley. >> Yeah. >> You need to watch Midnight Mass.”

>> Okay. >> It's like flopping things. >> It's like a spooky little New England village to like shrink so it's got those vibes. >> Yeah. But Widow's Bay is next to my list. >> Oh my God. >> I haven't seen any of it. So. >> We've been yelling at Adam. >> Yeah. >> Watch Widow's Bay. I actually watched it all in one day. >> Oh my gosh. >> Yeah. We had a day off. It was raining and I said, I know what I'm doing.

>> Yeah. >> It took John and I like so long. >> Yeah. >> I always wish that I, I don't suggest watching it all in one day

because now I'm like, I want to do it all in one day. >> It's gone. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's so good that we are and we never get to watch it. Like John and I will take a hundred years to watch it. >> Maybe kids. >> The kids go to sleep. We'll sit down to watch it and inevitably one of them will come down and need something to have a stomach ache or a nightmare. >> Yeah. >> We'll have to do the whole day dairy. >> So we get like 10 minutes of a show at a time. >> Yeah. >> Where you can like stretch it out.

>> Mm-hmm. >> And Widow's Bay was like just enough where we were able to finish it. But even now I'm like,

“I want to start it again and rewatch it. >> That's how good that shows. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.”

>> That's an immaculate show. >> I think too. It's one of those shows where on a rewatch you might go to things you didn't. >> Yeah. >> The first time so. >> I love that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's so fun. >> And it's got really good new England five. >> I really, you took the words out of my mouth. I was just going to say that. >> Yeah. >> Well, and I'm not sure. I've driven south to be with you. >> Yeah. >> But Rockport and Gluster. >> That's where they filmed it. >> I was just in Rockport a couple weeks ago. >> Yeah. We want to go

because you can just like walk around all the filming. >> Yeah. >> I can't wait to watch the show and pick

her from that angle. >> Yeah. >> 'Cause Rockport is where it goes back. >> That's amazing. >> That's it.

You're going to see it and just be like, oh, that's it. >> Yeah. >> You can probably be like I've been there. And everybody in that show feels like they're from New England. >> Yeah. >> They just it's right. >> My girlfriend is like, yeah. >> I love Rosemary. >> Like, I just got it. >> I love it. >> But speaking of New England, it worked out. >> Yeah. >> It kind of worked out perfect. Why do you think that New England is such a hub of the spookiest legends and stories?

So a lot of folklore comes from fear. >> Mm-hm. >> And there's a lot of the United States that was settled in relative safety. There's a lot of nuance to that and people can pick that apart. But in New England, it was sort of like you were on the edge of the known world in the early 1600s. And there was a lot more danger. I mean, when people want to talk about what really caused the Salem witch trials, one of the big factors was that there were settlers. So what is now the

state of Maine used to be part of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, like extended all the way up there. And there were settlers way up and like wells who were essentially at war with the Native Americans, because they had wondered in a Native American territory and started to take land. >> Yeah. >> And they were rightly defending themselves. So these white Christian colonists were referring to the Native Americans as the devil and that the devil was out to get them.

And the conflict was so bad that they were actually like reverse migrating back down to Salem. And so you had in Salem, people flooding in, having lost family members, they were wounded, they had been fighting with the devil. >> Mm-hm. >> Like talking to them. >> But up here was like this mist all around them, just trapping them in. And that's I think in

my hometown was settled, like the United States had forced Native Americans far, far away.

“And so that element of fear wasn't there. I think in New England you just get a lot of it.”

You also get a mix of a lot of different, there's a mix of faiths you've got, Protestant, Catholic, the Puritan elements of that. There's, there's mixers of cultures, there's just different waves of it. And fear just becomes this really common thread through it all. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And it's a monster. >> Yeah, it's really an all these stories. >> Because when you're afraid and you don't have the answers, the human instinct is to invent an answer that fills in the gap.

>> Yeah. >> And so you see that with Mercy's family. >> Yeah. >> Right, you see George Brown

loses his wife first. But a year later he loses his oldest daughter. And then his son,

his only son, gets sick. And there's some weird stuff going on here. He's the only one they send out to Colorado to get better. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> But yeah. >> The man can get sick and go back. >> Yeah, he gets to breathe fresh. >> And while he's gone, Mercy gets sick and dies, he comes back after her death. They're afraid, right? Like they've lost, and it's interesting. I wanted to, I wanted to make sure that I noted this. So whenever you hear Mercy Brown's story, you hear about

those four. You hear, George has got a wife who dies, the oldest daughter, Edwin is sick and then Mercy dies. That's all you ever hear. But there are so many other kids. So Mary Eliza is the mom,

Mary Olive, is the oldest. And then you've got Edwin, Annie, Mercy, Haddy, Jenny, and Meira.

“I mean, when George's wife dies, there's a two-year-old in the house. That's how, like,”

people picture just a couple of teenagers in that way. But it's like this bustling farm house, right? >> Yeah. >> A couple of years after his wife dies, his father dies, not from tuberculosis, but still like that grief thread is still there. And I think George's mom is living in the house with them. And so you've just got all of this, this fear being mixed up. And it's really the community who's afraid at some point. They're like, hey, there's a lot of branches over there. >> So let's, let's take

care of this fear by doing this thing, right? >> Yeah. >> And what's ironic is that it doesn't work, right? Like Edwin, spoiler alert, dies. >> Yeah. >> And then after that, three years later, in 1895, both Jenny and 25-year-old Annie also pass away from consumption. In 1899, their younger sister Meira dies from consumption as well. So tuberculosis is taking all of them out. >> Yeah. >> Only one to live is Haddy, who actually lives until 1954.

>> That's crazy. >> Which is crazy. I put in the book here, because I like, I like putting people in a frame of reference to help people work. >> Yeah. >> She learned about her sisters and her mom being exhumed to look for signs of what was essentially a vampire. And lived long enough to see the premieres of I love Lucy, the Ed Sullivan Show, an American bandstand. >> When you can build your own cellophones, wow. >> Yeah. >> It's wild. >> That is absolutely mind-boggling.

>> So she lived through it. >> Yeah, I would say so. >> Yeah. >> I would say so. >> She's a definition of I've seen some shit. >> Yeah. >> She said you don't know what I've been

“for you. >> Yeah, she's like, wow. >> So you have to infere as the heart of love, what was going on.”

>> It is. >> Reacting to a fear, inventing an answer to calm fear. >> Yeah, make you feel better about what it's going on. >> In some ways that makes what I do for living kind of boring, it's like, yeah, 12 years of making more, but the answer at the end of the day is people were afraid of the story, right? >> Yeah. >> But our brains do some messed up things when we're afraid to know. >> That's a thing. The way people react to fear is so scary. >> Yeah. >> I mean, the Salem witch trials, Puritans are wild. >> The wild. >> Yeah, absolutely.

>> Haven't stopped doing it since. >> No, we keep on doing it. >> No. >> We don't learn to dance things. >> Yep. >> Mr. European itself. >> It sure does. >> Yes. >> Now, what would be the creepiest legend that you feel isn't talked about enough? Was there one that you saw that you were like, why is it's not big foot? >> [LAUGH] >> That's the long. >> Yeah. >> EPS legend. I mean, some of the creepiest get talked about because they're super creep. >> Yeah. >> Muffman, for example. >> Oh, yeah. >> I know,

Muffman. >> The, yeah. >> The, like, the, seeing Muffman as like a portent of doom and then looking at the events that happened, there's some really creepy things going on there. >> Yeah. >> I love an omen, like a harbinger. >> Yeah, and so creepy. >> Yeah. >> Creepy in a different sense, you know, have you, have you ever done the story of Mary Taft, the woman who gave birth to rabbits? >> Oh, my God. >> I was just reading about that. >> I have a different sense. >> Yeah. >> So strange, you brought

that out. >> Yeah, it's creepy in a different sense. >> Yeah, sure is. >> It's, you know, it's got something.

We need to cover. >> I can tell you. >> I totally clearly list recently. >> Yeah.

>> Although I have to say I'm surprised that Guana Paltrow hasn't, you know, tried some of those. >> figured that out with you. >> Hasn't added it into the group lineup or with the G company, she has time. >> Yeah, you know. >> TM, there you go. >> No, I wonder because this happens to us a lot. Have you ever started researching one topic and then you fall into a completely different topic that you stumble upon along the way? >> Yeah, and so a decade ago, I thought that was distraction.

>> Right, like, like, like the inability to focus on something. But the more episodes you make, you know this, that you need more episodes if you're going to keep going. You start to realize that

“those moments are the moments where you need to make a note, put a pin in it, set it aside,”

follow that rabbit trail later, and that becomes another episode. >> Yes. >> Because the best stories

are found in the midst of researching a story, right? Like, it's the side thing, the related thing.

Which is, I mean, it's why this book is, is what it is because you research one thing and you realize there's five other things connected to it. >> And those and the other things. >> And the other things. >> Yeah, you know, there would become something later on. >> Yeah. >> So, for Laura, we do, I don't know how you guys plan out stuff, but like, we do an annual writer's room. >> Well. >> And so cool. >> We do, we do Laura every other week and then in between, we do Laura Legends.

And those tend to be a little bit more toward, like, the urban legend, and maybe a little less factually grounded the idea that there's still valuable stories to tell. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Music slightly different formats the same. And so, we'll do an annual writers room for Laura and then six months later, one for Legends. And it is the whole team of researchers and writers together pitching for like a day or two straight over video chat.

“Pitching a story idea. Like, here's my micro outline for it. I think that we should do act one”

on this act two on this act three. The epilogue at the end of the episode can be about a related story about this. And then we brainstorm and throw sources at each other. And we'll try to, over the course, maybe a day, day and a half, lock down 25, 30 stories. >> Wow, that is so fun. >> So, I'm planned out to the beginning of 28 right now. >> Wow, I'm planned out to like a couple weeks for a week. >> I was going to take a day off. >> I'm living on the edge. >> Yeah, honestly,

that's us being like, look at us. >> Yeah, that's us being like, whoa, look at us go. >> That's a cool concept. >> Yeah. >> We're going to give them a try. >> I know. I feel like that's such a better way to do it. Because sometimes we're like, we're like, mood podcasts. >> We are like, mood podcasts. >> We're like, we'll be like, I don't feel like telling the story today. So, I'm going to switch at the last second. Sometimes I'll have a completed story.

And then I'm like, I don't want to tell it today. I'm going to move on to this one. >> Yeah. >> Which is not the way to do it. >> No, it's not being quite honest. I mean, there's something to be said

“about it. You see, yeah, it works out. >> You have to talk about it. So, it's going to talk about it.”

>> You might have a lot of it. >> Right. >> Exactly. You have to be in the mood to talk about it. And the good news is it's done when you are in the mood. >> That's the thing. Exactly. It's waiting for you.

>> That's the thing. >> That's what I always tell myself to do myself. >> Yeah, it's done.

>> Yeah. >> Can use it. >> Right. >> Exactly. >> There we go. Yeah. But yeah, we're constantly on the edge. >> We do that a lot. >> No, I wonder because again, this has happened to us. Is there ever a piece of folklore that you stumble across that you either desperately want to debunk, but can't or that you almost don't want to debunk that you do? >> Oh, wanting to preserve that raw innocence of people believing something. >> Right. >> Again, back to my personality

trade of liking to burst people's bubbles. I don't know that I've ever wanted to preserve the belief in something. I don't know how it feels. I'm the total opposite. I'm like, no, I don't want to ruin this for you. I'm like, but I'll handle it as a storyteller. I will tell people in an episode, but that's not true. But I'll do it after I've told them the story. From a point of belief. Here is the story that people tell and cling to. I really want them to experience story.

>> Almost like you set up exhumed. I'm just sorry to say that it didn't go back. It didn't actually, and here's the three reasons why. >> Right. >> Am I really sorry to say, I don't know, because I like fact. I like research. And if the research says that can't have happened. >> Yeah. >> There was a story we did of a haunting in DC, one of the mansions in DC, you can do a ghost tour of it now. The basic justified is that this family had two daughters

when they were in their teens or so. Each one, like years apart, fell down the stairs and died. >> Okay. >> And yeah, they lost both their kids. >> Funny numbers. >> So, of course, they tell you the story on the stairs during the ghost tour, right? >> Of course. >> Well, fun. Those daughters are in a graveyard, and their gravestones have dates on them. >> Uh-oh. >> And the dates do not match up. >> Uh-oh. >> Stories that we know how they both

died. One of them was from an illness like tuberculosis. >> Yep. >> It's, it's quaint to want to hold on

the story all you want. But at the end of the day, the evidence is there that says it didn't happen. >> Right. >> And yeah. >> I feel like I wouldn't have integrity if I didn't, at the very least, say, by the way, we do have this grace. >> Yes, I have to tell you the journey. >> We do have records. >> Yeah. >> Have you ever come across the story of the Cascade Girls in New Orleans? >> Yeah. >> That one is so interesting, but then you get through it and you're like, yeah,

that probably didn't happen like that. >> Yeah. >> So many people love the idea of the story. >> Yeah. >> It's fun. >> Yeah. >> The idea of it is also. >> How fun is that?

“>> Like, especially with New Orleans, but then the truth is it's pretty awful. >> Yeah. >> Those races.”

>> Wait, worse. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So that's what a fun to lean on the, yeah, the fun of it all. >> That they were vampires or just smuggling this. >> Yeah. >> You know what? I want to give those women that power back. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You were vampires destroying the lid. >> Hell, yeah. >> Now, what episode of Laura, would you say are you most proud of if you could pick one or even two? >> So proud from a couple of different aspects. So I'll say from a research standpoint,

Emily Sigi and the doppelganger for more. >> Okay. >> Because when I sat down, when I made that episode, it was still in the realm of, of me doing everything. I found the topic I researched that I wrote it. I published it. That's why it was every other week initially. It's a lot of work. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I wanted to do the research right. So I would, as anybody does, start online and look for resources for Emily Sigi, whether it was a book or an online article,

it was always the same story. It was the same details rearranged by some new writer,

but they only had certain number of Lego pieces to work with. So the story always had the same pieces. And that frustrated me, because it made me feel like there wasn't a core original, more nuanced version of the story. And I really, I don't know how, but I pushed until I found a German book that was available on like books.google.com. >> It's always unlike the 11th page of Google. >> Yeah. And I remember having my laptop open to this German book and then holding my phone with

Google Translate. >> Apple. >> Pointed at the screen. And reading the German words being translated into English on my phone and realizing I had found source material behind the story that had more names, more dates, more places. >> No, things is better than mine. >> It just feels like not respect. >> Yeah. >> That is like that is, that's top-notch. >> I'm proud of that one.

“>> You should be, did I invent a new medication for some horrible disease? >> No.”

>> But I found some sources. What felt like no other writer about that story, felt like it was worth time spending to find? >> Yeah. >> And I was proud of that. From a storytelling aspect, I love episode 12, have hanged. >> I love that one. >> I love that one. >> 17th century, woman in colonial Massachusetts accused of witchcraft. And this, the victory and the middle finger, you, the establishment that story is. >> Such a good story.

>> Yeah. >> Have hanged Mary. >> Yeah. >> We have talked about that. >> Yeah, I love that story. >> And she was a real woman. Margaret Atwood is descended from her. And Margaret Atwood wrote a poem in 12 stances about the last 12 hours of her life and at the end of the poem. And this is a woman that was accused of being a witch. And she's like, I'm not a, they shipped her off the Boston. And then, for a court, and she came back acquitted, she, you know, nobody's got to be kidding me.

>> It was just because she was cranky. She wasn't religious. She wanted people to get off her property.

>> Like, for her. >> You know, she was standing up for me. She was a powerful woman.

>> She was a poor. >> And the powerful people in town wanted to just blame everything on her. And they, they blamed her for the illness of their town leader, you know, their cult leader. And they, they hang her. And he still dies from his illness. But in the morning, she gets up off the ground and walks away. And so, and atwood's poem, she ends with this line that's something like, I wasn't a witch before, but now I am. >> I love that. >> And you're here.

>> So good. >> So good. >> So good. >> That's so good.

“Would that be the first episode that if somebody was just starting lore today?”

>> Yeah. >> Which you tell them to start with. >> Dig it. Also, from a formulaic standpoint, like you'll get a good sense of how lore is structured. >> Mm-hmm. >> I'm going to give you a lot of New England kind of like witch legends. There's even some wizard legends in there, which you don't bump into a lot. >> No. >> And then you dig right into the context of Mary's story and what happens. And yeah, it's, I like it. It's a good place to start.

>> All right, but I think so too. >> Yeah. >> I heard it here first. You did.

Now, a lot of your stories revolve around people having a lot of faith in things. Like we talked about the hand of glory. >> Yeah. >> And we can look back on that and we can laugh at it. >> Sure. >> What do you think is going to be our hand of glory in 200 years that people are going to look back and be like, are you guys serious? >> Yeah. >> You thought that would work?

>> Yeah. >> I imagine a century from now, I hope it's less than that.

>> I was going to say great if it's a decade from now. >> Oh, that'd be great. >> But we have to fund the sciences, wouldn't we? >> We would. >> Yeah. >> That's a set. >> We're not going down to fund anything right now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, we're funding something. >> You know what you fund crypto. >> Yeah. >> But I think that that's one of the big ones, just the extremes that we're going to

for something. I think about some of the early material and exhumed talking about blood transfusion. And they were on the right path. Of course, sheep's blood might not have been the right path.

“But you know, you have to start somewhere. I get why they thought blood blood transfusion today.”

>> No. >> It's just a normal part of medicine. >> Yeah. >> And it does make you wonder. What are the things that will look back on? They were right on. They just didn't fully understand it. Or boy were they way off of face. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> That's what I'm excited to see. It's the thing that's like blood transfusion. We were like, oh, you were so close. >> Yeah, well, we're so close to. >> Yeah, I'm also still freaked out.

But I love blood transfusions, like a plus, yay for blood transfusions, but you've had two. >> I have a negative blood. So I can only take a negative blood and I can give to anyone. But I had to have a blood transfusion after I had my twins and I like panicked. And I was like, I can only have no negative blood. And they were like, I know we went to medical school. We know that. And I was like, are you sure? Are you going to poison me? I freaked out.

>> Well, you're so excited. >> When you do get a blood transfusion, aren't they going to likely give you a negative, since it's a donor. >> I don't know if they usually are going to give you. >> But I just was so freaked out about being poisoned, but someone else is blood.

>> That's great. >> I just had my first children don't kill you. >> Yeah.

>> It's like, oh, my God. >> It's valid. >> It's weird. Anybody who's had a blood transfusion, it's weird. >> Because I hope it's a negative blood. >> Because I hope it's a negative blood. >> I'm just getting someone else's blood, like what? >> Yeah. >> Or people who have... >> Or people who have... >> Or an organ from someone else.

>> All right, it must be so strange. >> Yeah. >> But like, thank goodness we can do that.

“It's a dive down. >> Yeah, it is. Did I touch on that in the book?”

I feel like I talked a little bit about my... >> You did talk about... >> There's this ideal image of a complete body, and even when we, you know, you're a healthy person who's gotten a kidney from somebody else, you frequently talk about, you'll decade later, you'll still talk about it as someone else's kidney. >> Yeah. >> Like you're in complete, your life has been saved, it's a miracle of medicine,

but there's still something about it that, like, doesn't jive with our ideal of the purpose. >> Yeah. >> Human, intact human body. >> It's not mine, so it's not mine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It is strange how we think that. >> Yeah. >> It is. [ Music ] >> No, and after all these years, what do you think folklore says about humans?

>> We're very creative, we're very hopeful. You know, we can focus on fear, that's fine,

“but I think the answers that people have invented over the centuries or millennia,”

there is a hope kind of lingering in the inner that, hey, guys, we figured it out, you know? Or, or we can conquer this challenge or problem or get around this unknown, there is a hope there that I think is really admirable. >> Yeah. >> Going through the book and writing the story in that order really made me appreciate how, how very much not barbaric these people were, if I comparison the other some weird stuff, but they were just trying, they were human,

they wanted to be hopeful and find a solution. And, you know, I think that's something to take away

and say, I hope we always are a very hopeful species. >> Mm-hmm. Yeah. If we lose that,

what do we become? >> Because what do we have? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I like that. >> And there's also, at the same time, we are, we as people are just lovers of story. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know, whether you want to write them or you just enjoy them, very few people would say, I don't want to deal with stories. >> Yeah. >> Those are weird people. >> I was just going to say, yeah, I don't want those people around me. >> There's something

to do. >> Yeah. >> So it's supposed to be a pathic about that. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to, I don't want to watch TV or movies or read a book. >> Yeah, I don't want to know what do you do that. >> We for the most part love story. >> Yeah. >> And I love that, something like podcasting, where, yes, we're sitting around microphones talking and sometimes there's cameras involved, but we could have a campfire in between us. >> Yeah. >> You know, it would be the same vibe.

>> And we'd be doing the same thing that our ancestors did, you know, 20,000 years ago or 100,000 years ago, telling stories, right? >> Yeah. >> I love that. >> Yeah. >> I think that's perfect. I think that's perfect,

with you yet because we're always in on a game. >> Oh. >> So, down for would you rather?

>> Yes. >> That's good. That word. >> Unless the question is, would you rather play a game or? >> Imagine if you just said no. >> Right. >> I actually know gender there, you're like, no. >> For those who can't see, she's just candid me a hacksaw. I'm very worried. What do you grab there? >> If you're left foot or keep your right foot. >> What do you think? >> Surprise. >> We've decided to become jigsaw. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, inspired by episode two of

Lord, the bloody pit on the Hussach tunnel. >> A really good episode. >> Great episode. Would you rather hear Phantom Voices calling your name whilst inside the tunnel? >> Okay. Or, see somebody standing at the entrance, but they disappear every time you blink.

“>> I think the more preferable would just be to see something. >> Yeah. >> Hearing things?”

>> I'm sorry. >> That's a lot. >> Yeah. >> It's over stimulating. >> Yeah, it's really a nice amount of all diapers could help me. >> Truly. What do you think? I'd probably feel the same way, just because sound over stimulates me. So, as soon as Voices started, I'd just be like, "Oh, that would be it." >> I see. >> I see. I picture this as like a lot of Voices disembodied. >> Yeah. >> Just imagine that in what is essentially a man-made cave. >> That's right.

>> The echoing. >> The echoing. >> The resonance. >> Yeah.

>> And here's the thing, that would freak me out. >> Yeah.

>> But what if there's a real person that I'm seeing and I have to deal with them? >> I get that. >> That's true. >> I'd much rather deal with the disembodied Voices. >> Right, because you could reason that away. >> Right. >> It's an echo of my foot steps or whatever it is. But when you see something, that's harder. >> That's a lot harder. >> Yeah, so I'm going to do this. >> So, then you're okay.

>> I usually do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, you might be all right.

“>> Does Mace work on a ghost? Have you, if you guys confirmed this?”

>> I have never maced a ghost. >> Okay. I do not know that, but what if it's not a ghost?

>> Yeah. >> What if the person that he had been in the tunnel is real?

>> That's funny. Here's a go. You and I talked about doing an episode of morbid and coming on and talking about this. >> Yeah. >> It's an adult creepy true crime case. You talked about the Hammer Smith ghost. >> Yes. >> Hammer Smith or Hammer's Field. >> Hammer Smith. >> Hammer Smith. >> I think I've done this as a live show story before, where this was in London and the people kept seeing this white apparition walking around and like in, I don't know, true, go get them fashion. People formed mobs to go out and hunt down this ghost.

>> Of course. >> And eventually somebody found him in shot the ghost and the ghost died and the ghost bled because the ghost was a guy who works. >> He was a, he was a Mason who worked with stone dust all day in white clothes. And so he was just covered in the dust. >> Like a Scooby-Doo cartoon, right? >> Oh, poor guy. >> And he got killed because people thought he was a ghost. >> Yeah, that's actually on my list too. You're naming all my things. >> Yes, I know. >> It's great. It's like foreshadowing. >> Yeah, right.

>> Stay tuned. >> Yes, exactly. >> That's true. All right. My next one is inspired by episode three, the Beast with it.

“>> Oh, yes. >> Now, would you rather travel through a medieval German forest at night or spend one night inside Bedberg?”

Well, everyone will believe there was a werewolf of foot. So you're there with people or alone in the woods? >> See what you're asking me is, would you rather endure the company of fearful suspicious people? >> Yes. >> Or the dark woods and whatever they contain. >> Yes. >> Yeah, I think I'd rather be in the dark woods. >> That's a, that's a, would you choose the bear question? >> Yeah, it's your only list. >> It was a little bit more German forest at night. >> Yeah, it's like the German forest at night alone.

>> That's unanimous. >> Yes. >> I think we saw a creep. >> Yeah. >> Like no, just like I choose the bear. >> Yeah, yeah. Bedberg was, was mind-backly because not only was it a whole community people who thought it was all real. But the guy that they accused thought it was real too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He's like, guys, I put a belt on and I rub my butt. >> I thought he would, some self that I made. >> It's like, I think you're right. >> It made me turn into a, I think I tell you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like, who doesn't want that? >> You couldn't win.

>> No, I'm really kidding. >> I'm really kidding. >> Yeah, because not even the guy that they're accusing is crazy. >> I can't believe I did this. >> We're all in on the joke here. >> Sure. >> All right, next one is inspired by episode 13, word of mouth exploring Corpse Medicine. And we're giving you three options here to be nice. >> Okay. >> Would you rather be prescribed powdered mummy, moss from a hanged man's skull, or a human fat ointment?

>> Okay, we can toss the human fat ointment out the door, because that's literally just like reduced human fat. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, like to the point where, yeah. >> Oh, and just greasy. >> Like a lotion, you can rub on your hands. >> Yeah. >> And really what's that going to do for you? >> Yeah, it's greasy. >> I'm afraid of mushrooms, and I know that that's not moss, but I would say-- >> You know, mushrooms were in there. >> Yeah, so it's like, when I want to eat some strange moss,

I don't know that I want to do that. So I'm going to go with mummy powder, and I'm going to say that because

>> Right, that's a, that's a fascinating bit of folklore. >> Yeah, it is.

“>> I don't know if it's hard to capture it in a story, but in the book, I covered this idea that like,”

the asphalt on our roads, it's a petroleum product, right? And it's come up out of the ground all over the world for forever, and they used to call it bitumen, and for early days of Egyptian mummification, they actually covered the bodies in it to seal and preserve them. But it happens to look a lot as a sticky black liquid, like what would happen if you just mummified somebody without it and let them sit in the grave for a long time, the body fluids come out, and they kind of congeal into a black

sticky substance, like tar, like tar, and so people started to confuse that stuff with actual bitumen, which like early Arabic writers prescribed us medicine for all sorts of things. And so, eventually that bitumen started to be confused with this exudate that came out of the bodies, and so people were taking that instead, and then they were like, well, if we're taking this, the body itself that it's on must be usually useful as well, and so there's a Persian word for

bitumen that is mummia, and that started to cause the powder to be called mummy, and then the bodies were called mummies, and now we call all preserve corpses mummies.

>> Just a mystery. >> Yes, exactly. But every time you drive on the road, you're basically driving

on mummies. >> On mummies. >> Something connected to that folklore, which is great. >> It's all on the force. >> Yeah, so like that. >> All that to say, if I had to pick between the three of them, I would pick the mummy powder, because there is the chance, it's just a natural substance.

“>> You know, I think I'm going to go with your answer for that very reason. >> Yeah, now that I know”

that. >> Yeah. >> All right, that's a risk. >> Yeah. >> It's a risk. But the other ones, you know what you're getting. That's a thing. >> Yeah. >> Just straight up, you're getting straight up, Moss from a skull. >> Yeah. >> Or human fat. >> Or human. >> Anything greasy, I'm out like greasy on my skin. >> Yeah. >> I have the only plus for

the human fat weightment, is that you're not ingesting it. It's going on your skin. >> See, I'm

having with my hands. >> Do you see anything on them, or like greasiness on me? I have a texture issue. >> But even the powdered mummy sometimes, they just like packed wounds with it. >> Yeah. >> You could also do that. >> That's true. >> And you're not ingesting it. >> That's true. >> Yeah, I'm sticking powdered mummy. >> Yeah. >> I think I'm going to go with that too. >> All right, look at us. You know what I miss again. >> All right. >> The next one. >> It's

fine. >> It's inspired by Chapter 1 of Exhumed. >> All right. >> It is called Blood and Glory. Would you rather witness George Washington's blood letting to his death or witness the meeting where people seriously propose trying to reanimate his corpse? Both are pretty interesting. >> Yeah, they are. They essentially drained half of his body's blood over the course of a day. >> That's unbelievable. >> And it was up walking around dictating his last will and

testament to his wife. >> That's no. >> I would be in the conscious. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. >> I don't know how much I lost when I had the twins, but I was you are so scared. >> Yeah, I'm scared. >> I'm scared. >> I'm scared. I'm out of it. >> Let her say if I'm going to get eight hours of sleep, I'm not thinking of water the other day. And I thought I was dying. Or in this like, you're dead, like something's happening. >> Exactly. >> So he didn't have enough blood.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah, he was sick of him as well. >> Yeah. So there's a part of me with some morbid curiosity, lowercase M. >> Don't hit me with the lawsuit. >> I won't. I would just, yeah, I kind of want to see that whole that whole process. >> Yeah. >> I also asked this question in the book and I have to wonder, what did they do with all the blood? >> I wonder that. They probably just tossed it out the window.

“>> I mean, that's what logic says. >> Yeah, yeah. >> This was the era of Gardy Lou, like,”

you fill a chamber pot, you toss it out the door. >> That's not the process. >> Throw out 80 ounces of blood. >> Of George Washington. >> George Washington's blood. >> They might have. Because I think they were past the point of drinking it or doing anything with it. >> There's a historical thriller in there for you. Somewhere in the American, there you see, and there's like a vial, like a box of vials of his blood. >> Some of the finds it. >> Yeah. >> Some like Randy George Washington. >> Inventory clerk. >> Oh my gosh.

>> Yeah. >> Dan Brown, if you're listening. >> Yeah, it's like call me. >> So, while it would be fun to listen to the doctors arguing, especially when the wax job shows up at the end and he's like, no, let's put some sheep's blood in and we can still bring it back to life. That would be fun. I want to see what, I want to see the blood works. Yeah. >> Yeah. What about you? Are you going blood letting? >> This is a tough one, because I hate to say this, but I think when they were trying to

reanimate him, it might have been to hear those conversations and to hear the thought process, this might be pretty fascinating. And I don't really love blood. I'm a little squeamish around blood. >> So, that would get you around that. >> Yeah, that would be some of that. Yeah, that's a tough one.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I can see it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm going with the blood letting.

>> Yeah, I mean, you were in autopsy time. >> Yeah, I feel like I shouldn't be there.

“>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It just makes sense. I think so. >> Yeah.”

>> All right. Next one, inspired Erin by your overall vibe. Would you rather have front row seats to one of history's most famous autopsy or one of history's most famous sciences? >> Oh. >> This one's hard. >> This is so easy for me. >> I mean, I know what I would pick, but yeah. Everybody listening knows what you want to pick, too. >> I think a science in the, in the, in the heyday of the spiritual estimate. Yes.

>> Like table tipping. >> Yes, it's like one of the key celebrity mediums at the time. And we just have an actual class of coming out somewhere just gonna say that. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. >> There's, that's another topic that I dipped into a lot over the years with Laura. >> Yep. >> Um. >> Various celebrity mediums in the, the rackets they ran. >> Oh. >> Yeah, that'd be fascinating to do. >> Tara really would. >> Yeah.

>> Terrible people. >> Yes. >> But yeah, I agree. Sayons for sure. >> Terrible people. I mean, there, there were charlatans, but so creative. >> Oh, absolutely very creative. >> They really did. The tools they created. >> Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. >> It was actually brilliant. Some of the things they did.

“>> It was like, you should have used that for better. >> Yeah.”

>> It was like, better society. >> Yeah. >> Seriously. >> I don't know, I guess in a way they're trying to make people feel better. >> Yeah. >> You know, you know, we could spend all day talking about that. >> Yeah, you absolutely good. >> You know, my initial inclination is autopsy. >> Yeah. >> 'Cause that's what I thought you were about. >> But I'm like, I've seen a lot of autopsy.

>> Yeah. >> So now I'm sitting here after you guys just thought it, I was like, you haven't seen that. >> I've been around historical sayons. >> Right. >> So, are we all joining each other? >> I think I'm going to join you guys. >> All right. >> Yeah. >> This is great. >> If we're requesting attendees like, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle would have to be a table, right? >> Absolutely.

>> He was all in on spiritualism. >> Oh, hell. >> Yeah. >> Attended them constantly. >> He'd be like, let's go girls. >> Yeah. >> I feel like I would have done that back then too. How do you stop going to one once you see one right now? >> Right. >> You know. >> Right. >> Once you start, like, I got to see this next one. What's this all up on? >> Yep. >> He's here in the next. >> Hi. >> Yeah.

“>> Yeah. >> More actoplasms. >> Yeah, that's what he's saying.”

>> No, my next one is inspired by Chapter 18 of Exhumed Pieces and Players. Would you rather explain germ theory to an 18th century physician or explain vampire folklore to a modern infectious disease expert? I feel like I know what this will be. >> I think I'd rather explain the vampire folklore. >> Yeah. >> That's what I thought you would be. >> Because I kind of what you're doing.

>> I feel like the audience would be receptive. >> Yeah. >> I don't think going back in time and explaining germ theory would have, I could have been burned as a witness. >> I was going to say that may have happened to you. >> Yeah. >> I know. That's, see, I love nothing more than to make someone understand something that touched on that. >> You've touched on that. >> Like, so I feel like my inclination is like,

I want to make you believe germ theory. Like, I could make you believe it. >> You think you could. >> I feel like I'm really persistent. >> That's true. >> I know that. >> I will not stop. >> I mean, the frustrating part is dead. >> They're will be listeners who, not listeners of the show, but like, if you go back in time and you talk to people, there will be people who listen to you and say,

"Sorry, I don't believe it." >> Just know. >> Like, all the facts can be presented. >> Yes. >> And again, they believe this very, very, it's like bizarre a world. >> Yeah. >> That doesn't happen anymore, but back then, that's a problem.

>> Mm-hmm. >> Yeah, that never happens. >> The cemetery scene

where Mercy's body is ex-- when they exume her mom and their sister, and then she's brought out of this above-ground, essentially a walk-in freezer, where she's been for a couple of months. That scene is a great example of that, because, you know, you've got the doctor who has always portrayed as like this old dude, is he's a young doctor who worked in New York City, and he was from the Providence area,

so he came back. So he's like this young, up-on modern science physician, working in a small village, and they have begged him to do this. They've begged him to exume the bodies and look for signs, and he's like, "Guys, you're not going to find what you're looking for." It's scientifically, what you believe does not exist. >> You know, like, we don't care. >> And we don't care. So finally, they convince George Brown, and he's like, "Fine.

If you guys want to do it, you guys can do it." He's not going to be there. All the stories say that George is in the graveyard. He was not there that day.

The doctor is finally convinced by giving money. They're like, "Well, pay you to do it."

>> And he's like, "Okay, fine. I'll just put it up." >> Whatever. >> I'll indulge it. >> He cuts open mercies body, and he says, "Look, signs of tuberculosis. All of the pieces are here. This is exactly what you'd expect for a body that was kept in a cooler for two months and not bearing in the ground." And everybody looked at it and said,

TV. Supernatural. This is all supernatural. >> And then they all coughed up blood into their hand and they had the evidence literally put open and presented to them and they could not believe it. >> Well, like, you see the same thing happens today. And it's because fear, it all goes back to fear, anything. >> Yeah, it does. >> Fear and simple answers. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Those are easier paths to follow.

>> And that would make me crazy. Because when someone's simply will not take, that's how you've seen me in that situation. Where somebody just refuses to take facts,

it will drive me to the - >> I've done it for a funny thing. >> Yeah, it's never fun.

>> No. >> It's never fun. Imagine you are a visitor from the future in 1892 and you're trying to explain this to people and they will not receive you. >> That would make me crazy. >> That would cause madness. >> Yeah. >> And you're a woman. So they just kill you. >> They would just burn me and fix it. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It would really not work out. I was going to say it would work out better if you were a man and then you told us that story. >> Yeah, so that one worked either.

“>> I think you need to. >> Shit, you got a shift. >> That day. >> I think so.”

>> I really want to convince them but we could have been unanimous. I mean, you can stick with it. >> All right. >> Okay. >> I give it a try. Inspired again by your overall vibe. >> What would you rather time travel to witness one famous historical mystery? Or solve one famous historical mystery today from your desk? >> Well, solving it today would be a lot of work and I'm busy. >> You are busy. >> I got a book tour coming up. I'm not really sure I've got that.

>> I'm always happy about it. >> Yeah. But then going back in time and witnessing a mystery,

kind of suggests that you're like, you're watching a murder happen, right? And you're doing anything to stop it. >> Yes. >> That's true. >> There's some moral ambiguity there. >> There is. >> Yeah. >> It feels like a Jack the Ripper thing. Like you go back to that. >> That's exactly what I think. >> I could do not stop that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would have to say. >> But good you. >> So now, let me let me compromise and say, I would have liked to have gone back to the beginning

“of the Jack the Ripper investigations and help them make smarter choices. >> Yeah, I think you feel”

exactly the same. >> Yeah, steer them in a different direction. >> Yeah. >> We don't know so much of that story because of incompetence. >> Yes. >> Yeah. And I feel like if somebody just went back in time and slapped them around a little bit. >> Mm-hmm. Yeah. >> It's not only actual. >> What are you doing? >> Yeah. They need like a parent back there. >> Yeah. >> They're like, all right, sit down. We got to get this under control. >> Yeah. >> You're all being crazy.

>> Yeah. >> Maybe you could appeal to them with dad jokes. >> Yeah. >> You know, yeah. >> Get your way in there. >> He's a metaphor too. I'm good at that. >> Yeah. >> There you go. >> Yeah. >> Are you going to go to work? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think I would want to go back in time. >> Yeah. >> And do something about it that will add that piece on to it. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. >> That's true. Because I feel like solving one today would be really cool,

but then like what happens after? >> I'm actually surprised you didn't pick that because then you have to convince people why you're correct. >> But in that's the thing, I feel like you really have to be solid because like how many people have thought they'd solve Jack the Ripper. >> A million.

>> Don't get me started on that. And they never have. And they never probably will. But

you'd have to convince them of it. And it's the same thing as the term theory. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I feel like people are just sitting their way. They are. So I don't know. >> Yeah. So I'm going back and try to change it. I'm going back and I'm watching and trying to if I can partake in trying to change it. >> Yeah. >> Trying to change it. >> Trying to change it. >> Try to get somebody to see if it would out in trips. >> Right there you go. >> But then it's

like the butterfly effect. Right. You just like ruined the rest of the entire timeline. >> Yeah. >> Like the tapestry of the rest of the world. >> Yeah. >> But I don't know. >> Now in 2026, I'm like maybe it'd be better. >> Maybe I don't even have to change. >> Maybe I will trip someone but he would. >> Yeah. See how it shakes out. >> Yeah. >> You know. Let's just try. Now the next one is inspired by Exhumed Again. Would you rather have

to diagnose an illness before a germ theory or a murder before fingerprinting? >> Ooh. >> Not diagnosed a writer but someone. >> I think I would rather diagnose the illness. So Galen is sort of thought of as like the father of modern medicine. Of course he was 2,000 years ago. And he was very evidence-focused if I remember correctly, oh, the hackers he was. And then Galen was like, "Oh, let's talk about humor, let's do this stuff."

And there was in a lot of illness diagnosis, sort of a flowchart approach. You look for these pieces of evidence and then you find them on your chart, whether it's literal or in your brain, and then you follow the options over.

“And then they eventually lead you to, well, this is what you do. >> That's what it is.”

>> And then all the answers were bloodletting. >> Okay. >> Great. >> That's right. >> It's just take the blood. >> Right. Well, people talk about the four humors and it's like black biol, yellow biol blood, and then there's

>> Yeah. >> It was like black blood. >> Yellow blood. >> Yellow blood. >> Like they all blood. >> Eventually all came down blood, which is why they just blood blood everything. >> Yeah. >> The word plethora that we use for like, the today we have told that we have the plethora of stories. >> Right. >> Plethora literally meant you had too much blood.

>> No way, I never knew that. I feel like you gotta get rid of that. We got to laugh some of that.

>> Let's let some of that out, so. >> Oh, man. >> Sure. >> So I guess in some way I would like to go back in time and diagnose it in all this, because I could just close my eyes and say, all right. >> Bloods better. >> Give me two ounces of blood and then we're done. >> That kind. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There you go with it. >> Yeah. >> I feel like, yeah, because that would be really easy. Just go in and then everybody claps for you.

>> Sure. >> What an amazing position. >> Well, it's true. That's true. I feel like I would want to solve a murder. >> I agree. >> I agree. >> I agree. >> 'Cause when we tell those stories that are so fascinating, how they actually got anything solved, right? >> Right. >> Would you use crew in touch? >> What is crew in touch? >> Oh, that's the blood. >> Yeah. >> Talking.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah, I would. >> Just bring them in. >> Bring them in, bring them in, have them touch

the body see what happens. >> I would want to use it as like a social tool to force a confession. >> I want the psychological aspect to be present. >> I don't want to stay in the court and be like, look, the body bled so he's the killer. >> Yeah, I want to do that. >> Yeah, I want to witness what's going on, right? >> I want to manipulate the criminal. >> I want someone, in fact, I'm going to, you're going to walk up and I'm going to hold my hand over your pulse. >> Yes.

>> And I'm going to feel it. What's going on there? >> Yeah. >> I want everybody observing the sweat that's stripping down the brow. I want all of that. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I like it. >> Yeah, I'm solving a murder. >> Period, let's go. >> All right, our next would you rather is inspired by Elena's deep obsession.

Would you rather know exactly what Jack the Ripper looked like? Or know exactly what happened

at Rowan Oak County. >> Oh, Rowan Oak hands down. That's exactly what you said. >> Yeah. >> I mean, what the guy looked like. >> Doesn't do much. It doesn't do much. >> Yeah. >> It definitely drifting into like the realms of chronology. >> Yeah. >> If you're head was shaped like this, you would get a head city toward this.

“That was, I don't want to dip into that. I want to know, I think we know what happened at Rowan Oak.”

>> Mm-hm. >> They went and integrated into the Native American population. >> And they tried to leave it out. >> And they tried to leave it out. >> I don't know. >> The name of the tribe, they merged into. >> Yeah. >> But I want to see the cause, the process. I would love to watch that. >> Yeah. >> I'm totally out. >> Watch the person's like,

and scrub it on the tree. >> Yeah. >> And I would also like to be there like 50 years later when Elizabeth there is, you know, this, you know, older, blonde-haired white woman living in a community of Native Americans, speaking their language. >> Yeah. >> You know, she's probably got tattoos. >> Oh, yeah. >> Like, like, I want to witness the last remnants of the English settlers as they're being absorbed into a more diverse culture. >> Yeah.

>> That would have been really cool to see. >> That would be a good documentary. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because there are legends of, like, blonde, sorry, a blue-eyed indigenous people in that Virginia area. >> Oh, she said that does make sense. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who is interesting? >> I like that. >> That's a rabbit-hole. I'd like to get a mask.

“>> Yeah. >> Oh, man, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. And I think I agree that because it's like,”

it's not saying no who Jack the Ripper is. >> Just what he looks like. What did he do with that? >> And at that point, too, back then, you're like, I don't know, probably had a mustache. >> Yeah, probably had a mustache, you know. >> Top of the look like HH homes, you know? >> Yeah. >> Literally. >> Yeah. >> He was not. >> Yeah, no. Don't, don't get us. Yeah. Don't worry. >> I agree. >> And honestly, so dark back then, you're really only going to see, like, the outline of

someone's in, like, I don't know, it's a person, I guess. >> Maybe they want to know it's Jack the Ripper. Are you also witnessing a brutal murder? >> Yeah, like, what am I going to do here? >> We're just watching him eat fish and chips. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I don't really want to watch anyone eat, so. >> Yeah. >> Murder a filet headache. >> Yeah, like, what am I watching? >> Yeah, what am I watching? >> Yeah, what is this? >> Yeah, I really know what it is. >> Yeah, because if I can't have a name and

identity to come back with, I don't want to see it. This doesn't happen that often. That we're so

“good at messing these. >> And mind of, like, evolved, I think. >> Yeah, good for you, girl.”

>> Look at me. >> Gross. >> All right, now we're going to do a quick little rapid fire this or that. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, okay. >> Do the magic of editing, I'll answer quickly. >> Really? >> Salem, which trials or New England vampire panic? >> New England vampire panic. >> In Salem, which trials? >> No, which trials for me. >> All right, ghosts or cryptids? >> Cryptids. >> Ghosts.

>> It's a tough learning one. >> It's a tough one, I thought about it as I wrote it. >> I thought I knew that one. >> See, I'm working with possibilities, okay? So, New England vampire panic and Salem which trials, we really know a lot about the Salem which trials at this point. I mean, it's been studied at Nazium. The New England vampire panic has so many unanswered questions.

“>> True. >> That's true. >> That's what's more fascinating. There's just a crap ton of”

what in the world caused this to happen. >> Yeah. >> We still don't actually know where they got the information to, even suggest, well, dig the bodies up and come up and look for it. >> Yeah. >> Like, that was the thing that came from. >> The signs they were looking for was known in Europe. >> This is weird thing that happened in writing the book. I got about, I don't know, three quarters of the way through and I realized, I was summing up a bunch of things in one chapter

and I realized, oh, all of those are German details. >> Mm. >> Just very, very weird. >> Those are all like parasolsis, the executions where blood was being drunk at the execution site, like all of these things were, the German footprints were everywhere in the room where it happened. >> Yeah. >> And I want to know why I do. >> Yeah. >> And the first recorded New England Vampire panic, like, exumation was late 1700s, like 1790s and we're talking like, a generation after

the Revolutionary War, the British brought Hessey and mercenaries over. Actually, I was in the UK

last week, I was speaking with archaeologists because that's the program that one of my kid I was once to go into. >> That's badass. >> And this archaeologist was dealing with a military site outside of Winchester in southern England that was a staging ground for those Hessey and mercenaries as that came over and I was able to ask him, would they have brought German physicians with them? >> Oh, shit. >> And he said, oh, absolutely. >> Oh, oh. >> And it was common for those

Hessey mercenaries to get to a place like North America and say, I kind of like it here, I want to step around. >> So my theory, my working theory is that some doctor, as it could have only been one or two, stayed after the Revolutionary War and just wandered the country side helping villages out with medical problems. >> Oh, shit. >> And they passed it on through practice, they passed some of these beliefs all the time you get to like 1790s, it's starting to become

a common thing. >> That makes a lot of sense. >> That really does. >> So for me, when you say Salem, which trials or the New England Vampire panic, there's so many more questions I want to answer.

“>> Okay. >> With the Vampire panic, that's why I go that way. >> Yeah, that makes sense.”

>> And then what was the second one you asked me? >> Ghosts are cryptids.

>> Cryptids just have more possibility, I feel like, they're very-- >> We've been trying to tape and photograph and record ghosts for so long, but we keep finding new species. >> That's what got me like, I was like, there's not so much fun with ghosts. >> Ghosts are so fun. >> I know. >> And a lot of times I feel like cryptids like you said, it's just an animal we haven't discovered yet. >> Sure, there's a little bit disappointment at

the end of that. >> Yeah, it's not an animal. >> Yeah, it's not an animal. >> It's not an even big foot so much. >> Yeah. >> But is he just like a bear? >> No, I think he's a big foot. >> See a bear that hooked up with like a cousin and I guess. >> I don't know. >> Is he some branch of, like, homo erectus or bikes? >> Yeah, yeah. >> That like didn't evolve in the same way. >> Yeah, it was denovians and Neanderthals and there's all these different branches and there were hybrids and like is it from

it's hanging around? >> It's like Nessie. >> It's like that's just, she's just hanging around in there. >> Right, it's true. >> Yeah. >> I know though. >> It proves that all these questions that it is

“interesting. >> I'm going to go with cryptids. >> I know a ghost. >> Like, if I think it depends”

also on like what, why I'm choosing, I love ghosts. >> Yeah. >> But there is a lot more to ask about cryptids. >> I'd like to spend more time with ghosts. >> That's true. >> And I've seen ghosts than I know it. So, you know, I struggle with that one. I love it. >> I know, I've seen them. >> I don't know. >> No, I mean, I struggle with like, which I'm going to pay. >> No, I was like, no, no, no, no, no. >> No, no, no. >> No, I've seen some of that shit. >> Yeah, yeah. >> All right,

galvanism or alchemy? >> Alchemy. >> Yeah, yeah. >> This is so much more fun. >> Yeah, more punk rock. Is it an alchemy? >> Yeah, alchemy is just somebody sticking a corpus with an electrified rock. >> Alchemy moves. >> Yeah. >> But boy, alchemy. >> Alchemy, yeah. >> Yeah, that's rock and roll. >> Fun facts. >> And I covered this in the book, the philosopher Stone wasn't a stone. It wasn't a rock. It was a powder. >> So, it's like, why? Why? >> They call it a stone because

it had a stable state like a stone. >> Mm-hmm. >> Okay. But you always picture like a,

a picture like a stone. >> Yeah, like a river rock. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, skip it. >> Yeah, I could skip the philosophers. >> Yeah, alchemy across the book. >> Yeah.

>> Medieval Germany. >> I think I would go there too because again, you know, a lot about Victorian England. >> Yeah, it's an interesting thing. >> And in culture that employed a town executioner. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who carried like a three and a half foot long sword. >> Yeah, I want to know about that. >> I just tell me more. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What other weird shit did you do? >> Yeah, I don't know about that. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Look at all on a green mirror. >> You never saw so many of those. >> You were really nice.

>> I think of editing. >> We were just watching the episode of friends last night where Phoebe has that game where she's like,

“all right, I'm going to ask you these questions and you have to answer right away and she's like, you know,”

meter vegetables, meat, you know, you're going through the thing and that's what that was. >> That was what that was. >> Yeah, you prepared. >> Yeah, you were ready. >> You didn't even know it. >> That was so much fun. >> Thank you so much for your hanging out with us. >> Oh, this was a blast. >> Yeah, this was awesome. We have to do this again. >> We should. >> Yeah, I record by myself, so I don't get to talk to other weirdos. >> See, you know, we brought you here for that. >> You're going to bring you out of the cave. >> Oh, thank you.

>> You're part of us. >> Everybody go get a zoom. >> Yeah. >> You can order it right now. You can pre-order it and it will be available on this fourth. >> Yes. >> Yeah, it's either fourth of the six.

I've got, we got the events on the fourth. >> Yeah. >> We should talk about this first second.

>> Yeah, we should. >> We should be at the Wilbur. >> So obviously we're in the Boston area. There's a great theater in Boston called the Wilbur and it's like a thousand people.

“And Elaine is going to join me there on the fourth, which is it a Tuesday night? >> I think it is a Tuesday night.”

It's like a book with ticket events. So come, you buy your ticket, but you also get the book and then I'll be there. My philosophy for signing things is I'll stay until everybody's taken care of. >> That's bad. >> So, so if you get a book and you want me to sign it, I will sign it for you there. >> Oh, yeah. >> But we're going to talk more in-depth about it. >> Yes. >> Revisit some of these questions and ideas and have fun with it. >> Yeah. >> It's going to be a blast. >> It'll be fun. >> So I'll probably do a reading or something from the book too.

Maybe read like the initial false version of her story from the prologue. >> And I love that. >> Yeah. >> Just to set that up. So that is August 4th, pre-order link for the book. Tickets for like that event or any of the other book tour events that I've got on my schedule. Just go over to ErinManky.com/exhumed. >> Yes. >> And these, I mean we'll need to put these links in. >> Yes, we will link it. >> Yeah, but it's just my name, ErinManky.

“>> Yeah, I'm so cheesy. >> Yeah. >> You can remember that. The thing that you know that a lot of people don't know is that for pre-orders,”

like you can put a book up for pre-order for like 10 months, all of the pre-order sales count toward the very first week of this release for book sales.

That's how people hit the New York Times specials list. >> It's a big, we got to get you there. >> Pre-order pre-order pre-order pre-order. So I'm begging the morbid army to go out there and let's go. >> And this will come out beforehand. >> Yeah, you know your job. >> Yes, you know what you have to do. >> Yeah, yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. >> All right, well, thank you again for joining us and everybody, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it. >> We're here. >> We're here. >> But not so weird that you don't pre-order ErinManky's book and get them on the New York Times special or list of authors.

>> Otherwise, if you ahead of the other ones. >> Yes, I'm going to go ahead of Gloria. >> Yes, that sounds like a weird. >> It seems how you feel. >> I'm not going to give anybody ahead of Gloria. >> I won't do that, I'm proud of you. [ Music ] [ Music ]