The Stamford Bra Murders

There you go. I can say it. I don't know. I guess that's gonna hang us all out here. That's okay. What if we just did an episode once

where we just never said, and this is morbid, and we just like kept talking? No one would know where they were.

And then we were like, "Oh, and it's morbid." By the way, like at the end, we said it. I think everyone would be like, "I know." Yeah, probably. Yeah, probably. I'm like, it's like a Sunday morning right now. The rain is not falling, but I feel so tight. I am also tired. Yeah. So you didn't sleep last night. I slept last night. I did not. I'm ready for it to be. It's like almost September, and it doesn't feel like it even in the slightest bit. I need it. One thing though, I'm going to make Drew get my boxes of all my decorations up and in my living room.

It's about to be Halloween up and here. A bitch is going to put on maybe practical magic, maybe her ex-cocus, perhaps the corpse bride.

“I suggested Coraline, but she said no. Here's the thing. I like Coraline, but it's not my go-to Halloween movie. I feel that.”

It's sad, and I feel bad that she got dealt such shitty parents. True. You know, she learns a lot about herself. She does. And like, I was saying earlier, we were talking about it earlier. I was like, "Her mom's nice in the end, but you shouldn't have to lose your daughter almost to an evil entity to decide like, "Hey, I think I like you." That's valid. I should maybe spend some time with you. It's very valid. I think her parents just piss me off. They definitely suck. Her mom's a bitch. Her mom is a bitch, and Dad's just kind of dumb.

Dad is an idiot, and that doesn't do anything. There's nothing fun about that for me. I love Coraline, though. I love the soundtrack, the soundtrack. I listen to it to write sometimes. I believe it. There's no words in it, because it's supposed to make you feel like a little noisy. It does. Also, Mr. Babinsky. Mr. Babinsky.

And then who are the two ladies? Oh, my God. I love them. Oh, what are their fucking names?

Ms. Spank and Ms. Forcible. There it is.

Yeah, I like them. Yeah, they're wild. They're her eccentric retired actress neighbors. I love them. I love it. Yeah, it's a cute movie, but I don't put it on for decorating.

Yeah, decorating. What are you guys putting on to decor? Let us know. Have you guys decorated? Yeah, it's time.

“Everyone's like, don't you tamper my august?”

I'm like, shut up. I saw somebody be like, all fucking December you're awesome. I'm like, I'm fucking late last night. She was like, I will fucking holly jolly your ass. Yeah, don't come out.

And also, I'm not doing shit to your august. You can have your shitty ass weather. You can have your butt sweat in your... She just fucking, she just said you guys have swamp ass. And you can have your mosquitoes, your hornets, and your hornets.

And your hornets. And your hornets. And your hornets. And your hornets. It's hornets.

It's really funny. You can have all that stuff. You can have you're not being able to turn on the oven to cook because it's too hot, too. I actually, like, I don't know the last time I turned on my oven. You can have your lack of crockpot meals because it's not even the vibe of that.

Like, you can absolutely enjoy all that. Enjoy the smell of sunscreen all day every day. I had to put sunscreen on yesterday and I used to spray and I inhaled it. And I think I lost yours all the way. It was so gross.

I probably did. But that's it. Like, when people are like, don't do that, don't rush it. I've got rushing it for anyone else. You're rushing it for me because I hate it.

And there's nothing for me. What's the thing about me? Is that I'm going to drink my pumpkin chai? Hell yeah, I'm doing it right now. And I'll put me to and I'm going to put on my movies and I'll decorate that shit out of my god damn living room.

Everybody's got to look at it. Everyone else live, period. And my coach is orange all year round anyways.

How long has it always in a place of this?

It's just Halloween. It's Halloween. It is. All right, that's our PSA. The funny thing is is that, like, mostly, like, I would say 98.2% of people listening.

Or like, I feel exactly the same. Or like, why are you talking people? There's like, I'm doing this. Whatever 100 minus that is. That's the amount of people that are like,

"No, don't yak my yam and August." And I'm not. You can absolutely yam August all you want. Yeah. I'm not a bias though.

I've left the building. I mean, August is almost left the building. I love summer. I said fuck, you guys. I didn't leave it that early.

But this year, I didn't love summer as much as I have in the past. Summer blew us. I think this year. And I think it can go fuck itself. Summer was a lot.

It was not a good summer.

“I think we had this exact conversation, like, pretty recently.”

Yeah, we did. So, sorry that you had to hear it again. Sorry good. All right, Gilford. Mark your time.

Gilford. I don't know. I said something crazy last time. And I just decided to go with it. Gilford just came to me.

Gilford. Yeah.

“You were trying to tell me the same mark instead of Gilford.”

And I was like, why would I do that?

Same mark. All right. There's no good way to transition into this because this is a very serious, very sad case. And it's, I would say, unsolved, but you'll see why it's like tough to say that. Mm.

Just, just doesn't seem to have been done here in my opinion. Rupro. So we're going to be talking about the Stanford bra murders. This is Stanford Connecticut, which is I only recently realized, Stamford and not Stanford.

Honestly, I also learned that recently. So did you learn it on the train to New York? Yes. Me too. Yeah.

Yeah.

“They called it out and I said, what the fuck am I?”

I saw the train station like that. Oh, what a Stanford. So our story starts today with a woman named Rosalyn Pazda. Unfortunately, life had not been very easy for her at all. By 1967, she was mostly supporting herself through sex work.

And she was also struggling with addiction. In a time where there was not many options for treatment or help. Oh, man. Which is really sad. Now, Rosalyn's disappearance was reported to police in early August.

And Stanford Connecticut police investigated, but they weren't really able to find her after hitting a dead end. And the case was shelved pretty quickly. Very sad. Yeah. So just 30 or so miles outside of New York City, Stanford residents had become pretty accustomed to experiencing kind of like a spillover effect from their proximity to New York.

Obviously, including the crime rate. But because of that, when sex workers from Stanford started going missing in the late 60s, people kind of just assumed that maybe they drifted down to New York.

“Rather than suspecting for even a minute that these women were victims of foul play.”

Yeah, because that's never happened.

No, never in a million years.

We've never told a story like that. Nope. There were times though, when violence against the sex workers in and around Stanford was undeniable. And this period of time, we're going to talk about it is truly undeniable. But people, it's really sad to see people's response to this case, especially back when it was ongoing.

So on the evening of May 3rd, 1968, Stanford Patrolman David Hughes was doing as usual check of the wooded area around Merit Parkway. It was a very popular location for sex workers and their clients. And he spotted what he thought was a mannequin laying in a wooded area a few yards from the road. As we know, it is nine out of ten times not going to be a mannequin. No.

It was only upon closer inspection that he realized it was a body, not a mannequin. And it ended up being the body of 22 year old Donna Roberts. As far as he could tell, Donna very much appeared to be dead. And her bra was wrapped tightly around her neck and she'd also been severely beaten in the face and the head. The scene really only had few clues though as to how Donna ended up there.

Investigators found drag marks in the dirt that led back to the road indicating though that she had likely been killed somewhere else. And was just later dumped in that. Oh, okay. According to the autopsy, her cause of death was strangulation and she'd been dead for several hours by the time her body was discovered by Hughes. Which is actually kind of crazy when you think of it.

Yeah. Just hours. Wow. In addition to the injuries to her face and head though, her ankle was broken. But it did appear that her ankle was broken post mortem since there wasn't any swelling.

Oh, and so it may have happened like during transportation or something like that. Okay. Investigators spoke to her friends and relatives hoping that they might know who she was with before she died. But everyone they spoke to was a bit reluctant to speak with the police for various reasons. And Captain Thomas O'Connor told the reporters, no one in the air and no area knows anything.

Because of the present time, we have learned nothing about the last person she was with. Just not great. No, thank you. You definitely need a little something to go. Yeah.

Despite a thorough canvas of the area and interviews with dozens of visitors to the park, nobody came forward with any information about Donna's death. Damn. In the case, ended up going cold within a few weeks. Wow. Yeah.

But then, in early September, another body was discovered by the side of Merit Parkway. Where remarkably similar circumstances. On September 8th, a driver on the parkway spotted what looked to be a pair of women's legs sticking out of the bushes about 200 feet from the road. And so obviously they were like 911 emergency. When the officers arrived, they discovered the body of a young black woman, believed to be in her 20s lying in the bushes.

Her bra was also wrapped tightly around her neck.

According to the medical examiner, Dr. Coleman Kelly, this victim's cause of death was basically the exact same as Donna Roberts.

It was strangulation. Her body was discovered 50 feet for more Donna Roberts had been found just in front of her.

Now, a search of the area really didn't turn up anything.

“And the victim didn't have any identification on her.”

So at that point, her identity was a mystery.

After the news about the second body was published in the papers, though.

Friends and family of missing people started contacting the state police, hoping that maybe they would have answers in the case of their loved ones disappearance. But when they were shown the body, nobody recognized her. Finally, about 24 hours after the body was discovered, though. Somebody thought that they recognized the young woman, but they only knew her by a nickname. So they gave the contact information for somebody who maybe would know her real name.

That information led detectives to a man named Oscar Khan, who viewed the body. And unfortunately, had to identify the victim as his niece, 21 year old Gloria Khan. Oh, man. And she was actually from Mount Vernon, New York.

“So it was interesting that she was found at Stanford.”

Yeah.

When it came to the scene where Gloria had been discovered, again, there really wasn't a lot of evidence discovered.

And since she appeared to have come up from up to Stanford from New York, like I said, nobody knew her. Nobody really had any idea who she might have been with or where like what she was doing on the day she was killed. Yeah. I check with the Mount Vernon police revealed that she did have a history of arrests, but given her history. Investigators made the assumption that she traveled to Connecticut to make some money through sex work.

But that wasn't really much help in finding her killer at that point. So seven months passed, and the bra murders sadly kind of faded into the background, replaced by other news stories and criminal cases. But then on April 5th, an anonymous phone call to the Stanford police revived the case for both the police and the press. That morning, the death sergeant received an anonymous call from a man who just said, "Another body's up there." Oh, that's it.

That's it. That's terrifying. Yelp. Another body's up there. Like, bye. That's chilling, right? Oh, and obviously they were referring to the merit parkway. Yeah. He gave literally no additional information, and then just hung up the phone. I hate it. So an officer was dispatched to the area where Donna Roberts and Gloria Khan had been discovered the previous year. And while searching a rocky area about 50 yards from the north side of the parkway, the detective or the officer discovered a human skull.

Oh, my God. Yeah. A more thorough search later that week turned up additional bones. And based on his cursory examination, the medical examiner Dr. Sol Firestein confirmed that the skull appeared to be that of the young woman. Given the remains had been in that location and exposed to the elements for so long, like what appeared to be months at that point. If not years, the doctor wasn't able to give much more information until after he could do a full autopsy. So it took nearly a week, but on April 11 investigators announced that the skeletal remains that I'm a discovered were those of 31 year old Rosalind pasta who was known to her friends a scissy rush.

Oh, she's like, I thought that was such a sweet nickname. That is one thing I should have said this at the top of the episode. I'm sure it seems like I'm really not giving a lot of information about these women unfortunately. There's not a lot available. I found what I could. Yeah, um, but obviously that was the body of Rosalind who had gone missing in August 1967.

Yeah, there had been too much time between her death and the autopsy to make really any definitive statements about her cause of death.

But investigators did believe that she was actually the first victim in the brahmer.

Oh, wow. In a statement to the press, state police captain Lewis Markazee noted that all three women had quote unquote similar associates and possibly could have known each other. He continued, they will be checking the background in all known associations in an effort to determine the possible facts leading to her demise. Now, because it was the 60s and as we know, sex workers and black women in these cases are often considered less dead. Yep.

It's really not clear how vigorously any of these murders were investigated at the time. And shockingly within just days, this, this most recent discovery, which was the third discovery of a woman strangled by her own bra, believe like presumably. The bra murders just disappeared from the papers again. That's incredible.

“It's like, how does that, like, that is incredible?”

How is that not front page news and like, how is everybody in the community not just like banging down the door of officers trying to figure this out? No, but it's insane. This was an area that was predominantly white and, you know, middle to upper class, so I think people just weren't concerned because they didn't think anything was going to happen to them. That's wild. Which is so fucked up. Because even if I don't think something is going to happen to me, I care about my fellow human.

Yeah, that's the thing. I would like everybody in the community to feel safe. Yeah, you would think, like, why would you not want that? But more than two years would pass before the murders came up again, and when they did, it became abundantly clear that somebody was stalking women in Stanford, yeah.

It was fairly clear to investigators in Stanford that the three bra murder victims had very likely been killed by the same person,

“but they didn't really have any insight into that kind of psyche.”

So they also, it seemed like they didn't have any reason to presume the killer wouldn't just stop of his own volition. Yeah, like back then people thought that was a possibility.

They were like, you know, we've never, we've never seen it before.

Yeah, exactly. But they had never researched this kind of stuff. That's right. They had no idea that that kind of compulsion wasn't something that was just going to stop. Exactly.

So in fact, when no additional bodies turned up the year after they discovered Gloria Khan, investigators seemed to have a reason to believe that the crisis was over. If they really believed that the killer disappeared or moved on, though, they were proven wrong in the summer of 1971 when the fourth victim was discovered. Seventeen year old Gail Thompson never returned home on the evening of July 9th, so she was reported missing to the Stanford police. The next day her body was unfortunately discovered in a wooded area off of Roxbury Road, which is just south of the Merit Parkway.

So it's like right there. Yeah. And it was not very far from where the other victims had been found years earlier. According to the medical examiner, Gail had been dead for approximately 24 hours when she was discovered. So they found her pretty quickly.

Yeah.

“Obviously, obviously, it would be required to determine her cause of death, but the braw wrapped around her neck tightly strongly suggested that she had been strangled to just like the others.”

To the members of the press who did cover the story, the connection to the other murders was obvious.

But for some reason, investigators weren't as eager to group everybody together now. Yeah. Captain O'Connor told their reporters, we're working on the theory that there's a possible connection, but we're concentrating just on this one victim. And if it leads to the others, fine. How are you not, like, oh, get that.

It's a young, probably not discovered with a bra. Yeah, tightly bound around her neck. That's. Oh, okay. I don't know if it was the age because, you know, the age is have kind of varied here.

And she's the only minor victim that's been found that. But she's 17. Like, obviously, that's incredibly young. Yeah.

It's not like you just found like a 12 year old.

Exactly.

“Like, you know, and the MO here is the exact same.”

The exact same. But that doesn't happen. And I mean, so is the victim profile aside from age. Yeah. Exactly.

So the other thing that's interesting or it doesn't seem like they were saying no. She's not connected to these victims, but it looked like they were like looking for a way to say that she wasn't. Or like publicly not wanting to admit. Yeah. That there could be a serial killer.

Exactly. When I was saying that. But there were also other aspects of girls' life that fit the profile. Yeah. Like the other victims, I already mentioned that she was a young black woman.

She also lived in the same neighborhood where Rosell and Pazda and Donna Roberts lived. I mean, come on. So yeah. And she was last seen a little after midnight talking to a man in a convertible. But it's like, hello?

That might have been something. Yeah. Now, in the case of the previous victims, a lot of many months passed before a new discovery was made. This time, though, investigators barely had made any progress in their current situation. When they received word of yet another victim discovered out by the parkway.

On August 22nd, two men on their way to a football game pulled off the parkway to change drivers when they spotted a body at the edge of the path that led to a rest area. That afternoon, the victim was identified by her husband as 34 year old's Alma Henry. She was not only a married woman. She was a married woman and mother of four children. Oh, Lord. So that was interesting, too, because that was a variation up to this point.

Everybody's been, you know, not married, not necessarily involved in the community like with anybody and a sex worker. Alma was not doing sex work at this time. And it's unclear if she ever had been. Yeah. It doesn't.

I couldn't find anything to say she had. So this is a little deviation. Yeah. It's a very horrific given that her bra was wrapped tightly around her neck, though, and she'd been found in the same location as the others. It seemed very likely that she was another bra murder victim.

Yeah. But this time something was different. With the exception of Donna Roberts, who had been beaten before being strangled. The other victims had just been strangled, it seemed, and their bodies were left. Yeah.

Alma's body, though, should evidence of sadistic behavior that hadn't been present in the others. Her bra, obviously, like I said, was wrapped around her neck. She was also been beaten in the face. And there was surgical tape covering her mouth, her nose, and her hands had also been bound behind her back with surgical tape. Holy shit.

Yeah. That's fucked up. Well, it makes you wonder because she wasn't involved in sex work, was she taken in a different manner.

maybe they were conducting business.

Yeah. So it was easier. It was a him. Unfortunately, it took us of conducting business. Yeah, to get them in a vulnerable position.

Maybe Alma thought back. Yeah. And that's why he bound her, you know. And that's not to say that the other woman didn't fight back. I'm just saying it might have been taken a little more by surprise.

By surprise in the circumstance. Exactly.

“So I think it was very different circumstances here.”

Yeah.

Now, while the implications of the evidence, the location and the cause of death are obvious,

investigators remain hesitant to make any definitive connections to the other cases. Still. Guys. Come on. But again, I think it's what you said.

I think it's them not wanting to admit it. Yeah. Captain O'Connor, though, told reporters, it was possible that the cases were linked. But he didn't want to jump tiny conclusions. No, of course not.

He said, we also have to work on the theory that someone is using the previous form rotors as an excuse to tie them in with this latest murder. Which I do understand that comment here, just because the way that her body was discovered. Yeah. Pretty different. But it also means that it's something that can happen, you know.

Yeah. Copycat. Right.

“Can etiquette state police were more forthcoming with information in a theory, though.”

Lieutenant Waldner Foley said, it is apparently all the work of the same person, even to the same dumping of bodies and what it areas along the parkway. Yeah. So that's the other thing. Different departments in this area. We're having a lot like budding heads or having the same public opinion.

Yeah. Now, the scene where Alma's body was discovered was nearly identical to the scene of the previous bodies. There were tire tracks also leading from the road to the spot where the body was left. Indicating that she'd been killed somewhere else and left in the killer's preferred dump site, just like the other victims. Yeah.

And also like the other victims, various pieces of her clothing were strewn around her body. Which was another kind of like calling card, I guess you could say this killer. Aside from that, though, there wasn't much left behind. And despite the lack of evidence, though, the state police said they were hopeful that they would make a quick arrest. Okay.

Because also they're facing a lot of pressure now. Yeah, I would say so. Speaking with confidence, fully told reporters, it's becoming increasingly obvious with the finding of this fifth body that we have a pathological killer loose in the area. In response, he agreed or he vowed to work closely with Stanford detectives to hunt the killer.

He said this man obviously is known to hit his victims. There has to be some answers on the Stanford area. No, I don't know what made him say that the victims knew the killer. Yeah, there's not really a lot of, I was going to say, I wouldn't assume that personally.

“I think he likely meant that some of these victims had gotten into the killer's vehicle willingly,”

not that they had like literally each other prior to the night. Almost all of the victims were known to have been arrested on charges related to sex work in the past. So it is plausible that they made some kind of arrangement with the killer before he turned on them all aside from all that. Yeah, it's also possible that his statement was more of an indirect call for help to the Black community in Stanford, who he and other investigators.

For some reason thought held some kind of knowledge that would be crucial to solving this case.

Huh, it's like it's not up to the Black community to do your detective work for you though. Yeah, why? What? Yeah, I don't get that. And I don't understand that.

Well, and as far as the local Black community was concerned, from the moment that Donna Roberts' body had been found in 1968, Stanford Police and Connecticut State Police had not lived up to their obligation to find this killer. This has been going on for years at this point. Yeah.

Writing collectively as the, quote, "concerned citizens of Black Stanford." The group addressed Stanford police chief Joseph Kinsella, with what they described as their extreme indignation. That investigators have been, quote, less than enthusiastic and their efforts to find the killer. We Black citizens find it inconceivable that no solution has been found to any of the five cases involving Black young women during the past three and a half years.

It pains us deeply to feel that had the victims been white. A much more vigorous search for the murderers would have been launched. And by now, at least one of these crimes might be solved. Yeah, which like, I would feel the exact same way. Absolutely.

So in the days that followed the public pressure in conflicting statements from law enforcement, unfortunately only grew. Despite his previous statements to the press, Captain Joseph Chachairsky told reporters, "We're not even close to knowing whether it was one person." It's like, "Are you hiding me?"

And I love that they're like, "We're not even close." Because we looked out other cases from this time.

Yeah. It's like, "Why?" That's the thing. Like, what the fuck?

And just to say, like, "Yeah, we're not even close."

What? And that's your-- You don't even have to want to pretend that you're like, you know, like you part of the whole thing is, "Yeah, you might not be even close." But you're supposed to get your text that you are working on it.

And that you will get close. Because you're task force. Where's any kind of hope that you're trying to give the community here? Right. And they just don't-- they don't care.

So it's what it comes off of.

“Because you have to think of the community.”

Yeah. It seems they don't give a shit about this community. Yeah. When asked about the pressure from the Black Citizens Group, he had difficulty hiding his frustration when answering the question. Yeah.

And said, "If we had something to go on, we wouldn't have tolerated these killings since 1968." Just very like, "Hey, if I had something I'd figured out, but I don't, so deal with it." Wow. Yeah. Okay.

Now, ask for the majority of white residents of Stanford. The killings?

Like I said in the beginning of this,

barely registered as something to be alarmed about. That's-- Wow. I'm like, "A mother of four was killed." I was just going to say, like, "So these are a 17-year-olds."

Like these are women that like a 21-year-olds under a 22-year-old. It's like, these are like young-- Not that like older victims wouldn't matter as much as this. These are like real people. It doesn't bother you.

In the prime of their life. Being found in horrific ways. Yeah. Like it's not-- It's also like that the way they're being found,

there's, like, clear evidence of, like, some kind of torturous behavior. And, like, statistics--

“To be left with the bra around their neck.”

Like, that's-- that's them, like, that's them playing in your face. Absolutely. And it's like-- and you're just letting them. And not only that, with the most recent discovery, it's, like, he's obviously escalating.

So, you know, it's rare to switch your victim profile. Yeah. But it happens. Yeah. It happens.

Yeah. It happens. Like, hello. Which I know, like, we're not at the point when this was happening.

Like, people do that. So much was known. I mean, they're calling them still pathological killers. Yeah. Instead of serial killers.

Yeah. So it's like-- I understand that, like, we had not caught up yet to understanding that these kind of people exist. Mm-hmm. Or how they work.

So I-- I will take it a little bit with that. But it's-- it's the-- it's, like, the nonchalance. Well, that's the thing. Or just the way it's being conveyed of, like, yeah, we're not even close.

“Like, that's not-- I don't give a shit that we don't know about serial killers yet.”

Yeah. You just shouldn't be conveying that kind of, like, ineptitude. Right. So all in complete casual, just, like, you're kind of apathetic.

It's not like you're coming off apathetic. 100%. Yeah. You think that's coming off as apathetic. Oh, Lord.

One resident interviewed said, if it were a Boston Strangler, everybody would scare it. But don't you see, it's not that type of killing. Yes, it is. Um, it sounds very like the only difference that he's not breaking in entering. Go to fuck, what?

And then, uh, sound a gross. And Sarah Kenom, who's house was near the parkway echoed the ambivalence and distance that most people found around the murder. She said, we don't like being used as a dumping ground. I just hope the next body doesn't turn up on my stone fence or in the pool.

It would scare the living daylights out of the children. Are you fucking kidding me with that? Uh, I hope the next body's not found on my property.

First of all, there's not been any bodies found on anybody's property.

It's been on public highways, which is worse. I love the phrase, the next body. Yeah. Like she doesn't give a shit. Not the next victim or the next woman killed.

Who's going to be murdered and brutally tossed somewhere like a bag of trash. Just a body. Just I hope the next body, because she's also like, I'm counting on another one of them. Yeah. We're doing anything.

We stop it. So it stays away for me. I hope it stays. I don't like being used as a dumping ground. Oh, excuse me.

I'm sure the women don't like being murdered either. Yeah. So I'm sure their families don't like losing them. What does that mean? I'm also like, wow, that's awesome.

You went first in last name when that interview. That's the thing. You said that tentos down with your whole chest. But that's gnarly. You could back then.

Yeah. People didn't bat in eyelash. Like other white people didn't. Somebody shitty. Those are the kind of people that need to be fucking put in their place.

They just do. Somebody's got to say it to 100%. Like, hey, you can't be this much of an asshole out loud. You can't. You really shouldn't quietly.

You shouldn't quietly. No one wants to hear you be this big of an asshole. So just shut up. Now, for his part, Stanford mayor, Julius Willinsky, which I was like, wow, you had no other choice than to be a mayor.

Yeah. You had to go into politics. Julius Willinsky. Yeah. You have to.

He stood behind the team investigating the case. And he told reporters that he was convinced investigators were making a strong effort to find the killers. And that these victims were, quote, not being disregarded because of their race. He said, my own checks have convinced me that our police are extending every effort to catch up

Wow. He also, he really said it. He did. He said it.

“And then he also told the press that he himself had taken a special interest in the case,”

particularly the two most recent victims. And he would be checking in regularly with the investigation to monitor the progress. Okay. At least he's conveying, like, I care. Yeah.

Give a shit. Like, here's the thing. I've not looked into this man. I don't know what he's all about. Shit all about him.

Aside from this. So don't come out be with that. Like, I don't know. I'm just saying in this one instance, he sounds like he's conveying a more proper message to the community than the investigator.

Absolutely. Now, it seems that the pressure from the black community and the mayor's quote-in-quote special interest in the case were effective. Well, that's good.

By the end of the year, investigators had finally started pursuing the case with an enthusiasm

that definitely hadn't been seen in the beginning. Doesn't sound like it. As December came to an end, detectives had questioned nearly a thousand people in connection with the five victims and both the Stanford police and the state police had increased the number of officers that were assigned to it. Which is, like, hollow.

Why would you not? Well, you have five bodies here. Yeah. Like, you need a task force of a force of similar size work. Yes.

There were several thorough searches of the area around the parkway during which countless fingerprints were discovered and processed actually by the FBI field office. And in the cases where they could be identified, the owners of those prints were questioned that length.

“But remember, this is also a public parkway.”

Yeah.

So there's millions of fingerprints, basically.

Yeah. In his end of the year, address Marulanski reiterated his previous promise to the residents of Stanford and said, "We will not rest until the perpetrator or perpetrators of these horrible deeds are apprehended and convicted." Now, by the dawn of the New Year, Governor Thomas Meskill had chimed in on the case and dedicated a $3,000 reward to anybody who could provide information that led to an arrest. That would be, like, just around 25K today.

And he also urged anybody with information to call the 24/7 tip line that had been obviously set up for the purpose of collecting leads. But as is often the case, the offer of a reward generated a large volume of calls, but none really proved to be useful. Now, to the public surprise, though, in mid-March of 1972, just two weeks after that reward was offered, investigators announced that an arrest had been made in the Bromarders. The suspected killer was 42-year-old Benjamin Franklin Miller, equal white mailman and self-styled minister, who detectives believe had met the victims,

while quote, "preaching in the black church is in ghetto street corners of Stanford and Norwalk." Hopefully, they would say that differently this day. Yeah, like in this day, each. At the time of his arrest, Miller was actually a patient at a psychiatric hospital in Newtown, Connecticut. He'd been receiving inpatient treatment for schizophrenia for over a month,

and because his physician had had him committed. Now, according to the hospital spokesperson, Miller had previously been suspected of the murders, but then after several interviews with detectives, he'd been ruled out at one point. However, just weeks after being ruled out, he allegedly repeatedly asked hotel staff to connect him to the police, because he wanted to speak to them about the murders.

According to the investigators, the arrest was made, possibly partially because of the help they received from the Stanford Advocate Police reporter Nick Seminoff,

who had provided critical information that he learned in his own investigation.

Despite statements from investigators about how Miller had wanted to confess, when he arrived in court for his arrangement, he appeared to be confused about what was happening. So he obviously, he's mentally ill. So you can find their like, Evan flow into these different states, but this was odd. Yeah, for sure.

And the arrest came as a shock to those who had any familiarity with Mr. Miller. His struggle with mental illness had occasionally led to some what you could call strange behavior and delusional thinking, but he'd never been violent in the past that anybody knew of, and he never expressed any violent intent. According to one of the church members who met him on several occasions,

Miller appeared to be a very nice guy. You could talk to him and think, and he was always easy with his exchanges. He was very friendly, especially to young people. And those who worked with him at the post office had similar recollections, telling reporters that he was a loner and considered himself another Billy Graham,

but he wasn't aggressive.

“Billy Graham was like, I think he was like on TV, and he was like a pastor wasn't he?”

Yeah, like a televangelist. Yeah, yeah. So obviously, like, this happens all the time, like some people that encountered Ted Bundy were like, oh shit, he's the nicest guy ever, like that's crazy. Yeah.

That could go one of two weeks. Of course it could. Yeah. But upon further investigation, it turned out Miller status as a minister was entirely informal, and he was self-ordained.

Reverend J. P. Ball told reporters, he would just stand out on the street corner and preach to anybody who would listen. People recognized him as a minister out of sympathy. They didn't want to hurt him. Now, given his documented mental illness and the fact that he'd been recently held in a psychiatric unit for his own safety,

Hmm.

“In a statement to the press, the superintendent of the hospital, Dr. Robert Miller said,”

"Mild mannered is an excellent description of Benjamin Miller,

adding that he'd been very cooperative since he'd gone back to the hospital." Okay. Now, a few days later after his latest evaluation, he was deemed competent to appear before a grand jury, which is interesting to me. Yeah. Because he's on a, because wait a minute.

He's on a psychiatric bed. Yeah. Lago, I don't, isn't that, and for his own safety. That doesn't, I don't know how all of these legal proceedings work, but I just think that's kind of, that's strange in my opinion.

Yeah, that is strange. And also he was deemed competent after a doctor described what was minimal, but not substantial improvements since he'd been admitted to the hospital in February. So that was also interesting. So that is, yeah, right?

Now, on March 15, Benjamin Miller was indicted for the five bra murders, and he pleaded not guilty to the charges. The grand jury hearing was closed to the press and to the public. So it's unclear what evidence was presented to the jury that connected him to the murders and, like, still is.

Yeah.

“In fact, despite having been arrested a week earlier,”

investigators have been pretty tight-lipped about the investigation,

and what information specifically pointed them to Benjamin Miller in the first place.

Yeah, I'm interested. Yeah. Now, it's obviously not all that uncommon for investigators to withhold details and evidence before our case goes to trial. We've said that before.

Yeah, for sure. But in the case of Benjamin Miller's arrest, it seems that nobody could or would explain what evidence they had against him and what led to that arrest. For three years, the black community had watched investigators pretty begrudgingly,

and as far as they were concerned, only half-heartedly investigate this case. Yeah. Only to come up empty for years. And then out of nowhere,

it seemed the suspect had come to a light, and the case seemed to be racing along with unprecedented speed. Yeah, it does feel very like, wow. Yeah. So quick.

Yeah.

“The concerned citizens of Black Stanford were pleased with the attention, obviously,”

they said. But they said they were still skeptical of the investigation and now the arrest. Spokesperson told reporters, until police are grand jury and veil more facts on the grizzly murders, they will not accept the official word that Benjamin Franklin Miller is responsible for any or all of these deaths.

So they were not convinced. Yeah. Now, while investigators proudly held up the arrest as the result of their years long investigation, police in Stanford quietly made an arrest that surely would have been of interest to those working the broad murders.

In the early morning hours of July 29th, 1972, police arrested a 38-year-old man named Robert Lupinacci, and charged him with attempting to strangle a 17-year-old on den road, not far from where Gail Thompson's body was discovered just one year earlier. Oh.

The young woman was black and was working at the time as a sex worker. So a large bill should have been ringing for everybody. They sure should. News literally caught strangling her. Yep.

In the same area where other bodies had been found, and she fit the victim profile. They don't seem to love a pattern. No. We don't have a lot of pattern recognition going on here.

They really should have watched. What was that show that your kid watched? Like, umi-gumi. Oh my god, umi-zumi. Umi-zumi.

Yeah. Pattern power. Like, they need to check it out. Get some pattern power. Hello, because I'm seeing a lot of pattern recognition that is completely going.

Yeah. Going to the wayside here. And according to the police, he had been found in the middle of attempting to strangle this girl in the back of his car via state trooper just conducting a search of the area. So he was quite literally caught red handed. Yeah.

To the press, the similarities between the bra murders and the circumstances of this arrest were pretty fucking obvious. Yeah. The Stanford police for some reason were very hesitant to make any connection between the two. What? And a statement to the press, a detective John Constantin told reporters,

I cannot say that this will, uh, that this case will lead to reopening of the den road murder situation. However, the investigation of this new situation will be intense and we will be getting the state police every cooperation in it. I'm sorry. What? Now, Lupinachi maintained that he had nothing to do with the bra murders.

And as far as anyone can tell, he was never seriously considered as a suspect despite literally being found caught red handed in the same area.

The five other people had been murdered under similar, if not exact circumstances. And literally were the, like, these were the exact victim profile of the woman he was found strangling. Hello? I don't see what you're getting up. Hello?

I don't see it. No. I don't see it. [Music]

and was sentenced to three to eight years in prison.

“Of which I'm pretty sure I found that he only served three.”

Awesome. For attempting, that's attempted murder. Yeah.

That's the first degree assault.

He just got caught. He loved finish that if he didn't get caught. Precisely. I never understand that. Precisely.

Like, I'm sorry. In the meantime, though, the district attorney continued for some god-for-saken reason to focus their attention on Benjamin Miller. And then date for a bench trial was set for late January 1973. If a three judge panel convened at the Superior Court where they heard testimony from two psychiatrists

who described the extent of Benjamin Miller's symptoms.

Although Miller had confessed to paying for sex on at least one occasion, he allegedly told the doctor's at the hospital that he had a, quote, "divine mission to convert young black women whom he considered to be sinners and to punish them if they remained sinful." Wow. I will say many of his statements were called into question later on.

Their statement was followed by reading a reading of the confession that Miller allegedly gave to police shortly after his arrest. And it, Miller confessed to having that these women through street corner preaching, and claimed that he did pay for sex with the, and had sex with the victims before killing them. He said after he engaged in sex with Donna Roberts, she asked for money and tried to blackmail him. He told police, she threatened to expose me and blackmail me.

She indicated that some fellow she knew would work me over and probably take my life. So obviously, the evidence presented at the trial definitely implicated him in the murders. But the panel of judges agreed that the psychiatric history and acute symptoms met for the criteria for insanity, and Miller was acquitted. As a result, he was sent back to the hospital for further evaluation before the panel was willing to determine how long he should be held for psychiatric treatment.

On March 30, his psychiatric evaluation was completed. And his doctors determined that, quote, Miller continues to be a danger to himself and others, and requires further hospitalization and is not likely to show improvement in the foreseeable future. So as a result of those findings, the panel sentenced him to be confined at the state psychiatric hospital for 25 years. Okay. Yeah.

So he was acquitted based off insanity, but he still had to serve.

“Yeah, it's very similar to like, isn't that what happened with Ed Geen?”

Oh, yeah. Like a similar kind of thing. So the sentence in the Miller case would seem to have brought the story of the bra murders to an end. You would think. But in the summer of 1981, while he was Ben Miller was incarcerated at the state hospital,

a trio of murders occurred in Stanford. And the bodies were found not far from where the original bra murder victims were discovered more than a decade earlier. Oh, man. On August 20, 1981, a driver on den road discovered the body of 40 year old Carol Gates, who appeared a who disappeared. Sorry two weeks earlier. The body was too decomposed to determine the cause of death, but it did seem likely that she'd been strangled. Her murder was preceded by the murders of 19 year old Mary Erin, and 36 year old Carrie Mock, both strangled and left on the side of the parkway.

When asked for comments, state lieutenant William Kirkby said, it would be good investigative procedure to look at the similarities of all three murders. But beyond his comment, it doesn't seem like these recent murders were considered in the context of the bra murders in any way. I like the like, you know, it would be good investigative procedure to do that. Yeah, I'm not saying we will. I'm not saying it would be pretty sick of us.

It's a blanket state that just to appease you because you know what, yeah, what would be true would be you're going to do it that you're going to go ahead and do that act on that. You want to be good cool because you could do that. Now surprisingly, it wasn't the discovery of three more victims found under incredibly similar circumstances that led to met Benjamin Miller's appeal for a new trial. The confession that landed him in the hospital in the first place, and sort of a thing in December 1982, Miller and his lawyer, his new lawyer John Williams appeared in court to petition for a new trial on the grounds that the state's key evidence the confession was tainted.

Williams accused Miller's previous court appointed lawyer Herbert Bundock, a failing to defend his client to the best of his ability when he didn't attempt to have the confession suppressed.

He was always doing that and fucked up. On the stand Williams asked for it.

“Did you not feel he did you not feel the fact he was delirious and the very mom he confessed might be helpful and in keeping these confessions out of evidence?”

That's a valid point. Pretty fucking valid point though. They literally said and like this is like a quote or like a diagnosis.

But specifically delusional, but then you're going to take a confession for full face value.

You can be saying anything. What sense does that mean? No, it doesn't make any sense.

“But in response to the previous lawyer, Brad Oximple said the insanity defense was the best way out for Mr. Miller.”

Okay. That might be the case. But like, but what if why didn't you even try and like why wouldn't you even try to get that thrown out? I think you could have to. The worst that would have happened was they say no.

Yeah, and then you just give it a shot with your insanity defense. Now, it wasn't just the questionable nature of Miller's confession to police that Williams's new lawyer believed to tainted the case. He also pointed to the arrest of Robert Lupinacci for a similar crime. Yeah, which Miller's previous lawyer and Connecticut law enforcement agencies failed to investigate in the context of the Brahmarders at all. Wow.

Burdock responded by telling Williams that the arrest was quote not relevant to our case and said they didn't investigate because quote that happens every day on Married Parkway. It doesn't. Wow. It doesn't. It doesn't.

And also the fact that a series of murders and attempted strangulations were continuing to happen might be a really fucking valid argument for the fact that your client is innocent. Well, that's the other thing and it's like that happens every day there and it's like damn you should do a better job. Yeah, but I mean on the on the police for sure the police should be doing a better job out there and also the fuck that Lupinacci's case wasn't relevant to their case. The arrest wasn't relevant to their case.

It's so relevant. It's the most relevant that anything has ever been to the case. Yes. It's the exact same thing playing out. That's wild.

Like had you discovered like thankfully he was found in the act of doing that. Yeah. He not been.

“Would you have found another young black woman on the side of Married Parkway?”

And also what if you what would you have done that? Right. Would you have said that's not relevant to the covered exactly how the other ones would discovered? What would you have done? Would that have been like that's the thing?

If she had been dead with that. Yeah, relevant. If you if you hadn't caught him before he finished the act. Would would that be relevant? What sense does this make you would have murdered her?

Like he wasn't strangling her for any other reason. He was going to murder her. A hundred percent. He just happened to come across him. Yep.

That's a wild. That's infuriating. So while nearly everybody involved in the investigations stood by their conviction that they rusted the right man and felt it was unlikely that Benjamin Miller would get a new trial. Williams and his client were still in an advantage position.

If he didn't get a new trial, he would just continue to be locked up in the state hospital. And he did need to receive treatment anyways. But if a new trial was granted, double jeopardy laws prevented him from being found guilty of a crime he'd already been tried for.

So that meant if they went to trial, the only options for an outcome were a second verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity or a straight up acquittal.

Oh wow. So in October of 1983. A superior court. I almost just said a superior court. Church.

I don't know. Superior court judge denied Williams petition for a new trial. When the decision was made public, John Williams wasted no time in giving a comment to the press, saying that the judge showed a lack of courage when he upheld the previous verdict. Now it would take another almost five years for Benjamin Miller's appeal to receive a review.

But finally, it may have 1988, a three judge panel in a New York Circuit court rendered their verdict. The Fairfield County Prosecutor had in fact violated Benjamin Miller's rights in 1973, when they withheld evidence about another suspect in the case, referring to Lupinachi. As a result, they were ordered to either retry Miller for the original murderers or release him from custody. Oh damn, John Williams told reporters, "I'm glad at long last some justice has been done in this case."

This was certainly one of the most outrageous miscarriages of justice in the state of Connecticut. And I would have to agree. Hmm. Now in the year that followed the state weighed their options with regard to retrying Miller. While John Williams continued to declare his clients innocence in the press.

By that time, most of the supposed evidence investigators had gathered, including the confession, had come under scrutiny. Yeah. And that completely weakened their chances in court. And outside of that, it doesn't really seem like they had much evidence. That's the thing.

Williams told the press, and a couple of cases, what Miller said in the confession, doesn't square with the autopsies. Damn. I think all they're doing is buying some time until they can work out a civil commitment. Wow.

Yeah.

And I always believe if you really, if you really think that person is guilty and you think you have,

you're going to go for it. You're going to go for it. That's what I think. Because that's just my opinion.

“Because if you have a strong enough case, you should be able to think.”

Why would it be able to? And it's happened. Yeah. For his part, Benjamin Miller insisted that he would not object to the continued commitment to the psychiatric hospital. He only wanted the verdict, really a reverse to clear his name.

Because he was not guilty of this, he said. Because he's like, I know that he's not like, you know, sane. He's not a selfish recognizing that.

I know I'm not a quote and quote, same person. But I'm not a killer. Yeah.

“I like that's the only thing I want taken off.”

Yeah. Like being mentally ill doesn't make you a serial killer. Yeah.

So ultimately, the question of a new trial became moot.

In May of 1989, a federal judge ruled that double jeopardy laws prevented the state from re-trying Benjamin Miller. And as a result, he was released from the state hospital as a free man. Oh. Yeah.

Why did you? I don't know about that. No. That's not what I wanted. The sad thing is he didn't know about that either.

That's the thing. He didn't want to. When the judge announced his ruling, the reality of the situation seemed to overwhelm Benjamin Miller, who by then had spent almost 20 years in a psychiatric hospital. Oh.

At that point, he also really had no place to go. And he wasn't necessarily able to take care of himself on his own. Oh, no. Luckily, he eventually, he was taken in another shelter from mentally ill on housed individuals. And following his, uh, his release, the assistant state's attorney announced that they

would not be appealing the ruling. So the case against Miller was officially close. Wow. He later said that he was coerced in his confession. Yeah.

In his confession. I had to lay me a link. Yeah. And he was, like, brought to different places and fed information. Wow.

Yeah. That's what he alleges. It didn't even according to them. It didn't even square with the autopsy. And so that's the other thing.

Situation. It fit in some parts. And it didn't. And again, it was the only evidence. They seemed out.

He was the confession. Now, the case against him, like we just said, arrested heavily on a confession that he gave while he was severely symptomatic, paranoid and illusional. Yeah.

“And he claimed at another point that he didn't even remember giving that confession.”

And at the time, he didn't understand what he was being prosecuted for. Damn. Otherwise, the best evidence that the prosecution had that connected him to the murders were a few vague statements he made to psychiatrist about sinners and salvation while delusional. That's unbelievable.

It is. I can't believe that it even went to trial. Yeah. On the other hand, they arrested another man who was in the middle of attempting to murder a woman by the same means as five other victims had previously been killed in the same location.

But that information and the details of the crime were never passed on to Miller's court

appointed attorney at the time. Wow. And as a result, Benjamin Miller lost 16 years of his life. Holy shit. Look into this case on your own and you know, take take what I've told you as you will.

But I personally do not believe this man did it. Yeah, I don't from what I've been told. I don't. And now later, when he finally agreed to speak about the case, Benjamin Miller told reporters the confession he made to police, like I just told you, occurred under directs, under threat

and under threat of physical punishment. At that time, he said he was taking a medication that made him semi-irrational. That was a quote. And he said he quote, would have cooperated and done anything to get the detective's off his back. That's really sad.

He was very much targeted.

“That's what happened in the West Memphis 3 case with Jesse Muskell.”

Yep. 100%. He was from in my opinion. He was very much led through that confession. Well, he listening and watching that entire process.

Yeah. Unbelievable. It's sick and it really is. It's sad. Yeah.

Because it's also like just put that in bound of work into getting the average adult fucking person. Yeah. You must know your coercing this person. Yeah.

Like, it can't feel good. No, it's fake. Now, for the rest of his life, Benjamin Miller maintained that while he might have been familiar with one or two of the victims throughout his street preaching, he had nothing to do with their murders

and he never intended to harm anyone.

And he never did. That I met. That's another never did. That's another clue. Now, in the wake of his release, the state in those directly involved in the case,

he had to insist though that they caught the right man. And they had done everything in their power to see that justice was done. In defense of the whole investigation, Detective George Meyer, who was the lead detective on the case, pointed to all the evidence they had, including the fact that Miller had information only the killer would have known.

Or the police. Yep. And that he had taken detectives to a spot where the murders occurred. He said, then took us to places we didn't even know about. Okay.

Okay. However, when he was asked about that by reporters, Miller insisted it was the detectives who gave them information, and they took him to locations. Damn.

John Williams his lawyer put it bluntly and pointed to the investigators, botched pursuit of Lupinachis. That's the big red spot near. It is. Honestly.

And there's a lot more to that babe that I'll get into in a second. Oh man. His lawyer said, Miller was a hand scapegoat. Admitting they were wrong about Miller would have embarrassed too many officials. Hmm.

But as far as the state of Connecticut and the Stanford police were concerned, the raw murders was officially closed, just as had been served. Even if it had been subverted by the courts in the end of everything. Wow. But if what Miller and his lawyer said were true,

then who really was responsible for the murders of Rosalind Pasta, Donna Roberts, Gloria Khan, Gail Thompson, all the Henry, all of those women.

Yeah.

“And fortunately, the main two names associated with the case of now died.”

Benjamin Miller passed away in 2010 while still maintaining his innocence.

And never being arrested for anything like this ever again.

Wow. He just continued to live in that shelter. Yeah. Robert Louponacci also died in 2013. It is worth noting that his own son spoke with author Vito Colucci,

a former Connecticut narcotics officer. This is Louponacci son. Yep. His own son. He doesn't like to be referred to.

He doesn't like his, he doesn't like it when Robert is called his father. But he's a son. Okay. And that tells you pretty much what we were about to get into. So Jeff spoke with author Vito Colucci, who's a former Connecticut narcotics officer,

who wrote a book rogue town about corruption in Connecticut. Who would like within the police departments? And are you? Jeff helped provide information for Colucci saying that he not only believes Robert Louponacci was responsible for the broad murders, but the other three subsequent murders as well.

Wow. Jeff reported and this is Jeff's reporting that growing up Robert was a cruel father. He was abusive to his wife. He was abusive to family pets animals in general. He was also said to be outwardly racist,

but allegedly known in the area as somebody who did patronize black sex workers. That, that will go hand in hand. Yep. Witnesses came forward saying his car was not only spotted near where all of the bodies have been discovered, but also had a hotel where Gloria Khan had been staying.

Hotel employees confirmed seeing him there. Stop. He not only worked at the hotel where Gail Thompson sometimes stayed, but drove a car similar to the one that she was last seen in. How was none of this taken into consideration?

This is incredible. Oh honey, just my last statement here.

Finally, according to Angela Correllah from the Stanford Advocate.

That's in the local newspaper. At the time of his arrest, in this is a quote. In the trunk of Lupinacci's car, police found hairs from a black person and a deck of pornographic playing cards with a missing queen of hearts. Such a card had been found beside the body of one of the victims a year earlier.

Are you blocking kidding me? No. That is the most embarrassing investigation I have ever heard in my life. They should be ashamed. Yep.

It's very interesting. I very much suggest reading a rogue town.

“There's a whole chapter where Jeff's reportings go into what?”

Collucci wrote and it is some compelling shit. I didn't even get into everything. I just, I really gave you like the big things. The last time that Jeff saw Robert. He, it was at a restaurant and he believed that he was sitting with Carol Gates,

who was later discovered on Dunn Road murdered. Wow. In similar circumstances. Wow. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. That's unbelievable. In the fact that they're just okay with the, like, for the police in that area, it's solved.

Yeah. But it's not because your only suspect was acquitted. And doesn't anyone have the feeling of, like, I'd love to look into this further. I don't like actually open this back up.

The sad thing is I don't know if there's any evidence at this point. Because who knows? There was like tire to try remarks and playing cards and clothing and fingerprints. And all kinds of things. But it's like, where did those go?

No. I don't. Can we retest? Like where is all that? But for Jeff to be convinced that Robert does.

Yes. It's next level. Yeah. Absolutely. Come on.

And then even if we didn't have Jeff's all of the information that came from Jeff, we also have the fact that Robert was literally caught right handed. Yeah. In the same area, strangling a young black sex worker. That's what.

I mean, that will never make sense to me.

No. That that was just, look, and they were like, yeah, I don't understand what. Mm-hmm.

“Like, what does one thing really have to do with the other?”

This reminded me of the George Hodell. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Like the black dolliest. Yeah.

Yeah. When people who know them or people who are, unfortunately, in their family, y'all start pointing the finger and saying, actually. It's so compelling. I lived with them.

Like, I know what kind of person they are. And then when you back up with like straight up information, the playing card, the hair. Yeah. And then he would call and like, he would call his like, people that he knew on the police force allegedly and ask them questions about the case.

What the fuck? Yeah. There's a definite, I suggest reading rogue town at least. Yeah. I just read the chapters that Jeff contributed to because that was the part that involved the brahmarder's case.

Yeah.

That's insane. Yeah. So wow.

“Fortunately, that is the case of the Stanford brahmarders.”

And I mean, I'm sitting here and I'm like, it remains unsolved, but I guess.

You know, that's kind of what I meant in the beginning.

“Especially, it remains unsolved, especially.”

Yeah.

So with all that being said, we hope you keep listening.

We hope you keep it weird.

“But not so weird that evidence is literally punching you directly in the face and you're like,”

"Go, what?" and you said, "No, please move on. No, thank you."

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