The Unsolved Murders of Barry and Honey Sherman

It's more buddito. It is.

“A lot of bread. I'm tired. It's been a very long week and it's only about to be another one.”

I had, uh, my first, I recognize a bull panic attack this week.

It was really funny. She was explaining her, like, like, like, something that happened and her reaction. It would be an even more like, that's a panic attack. They said, babe, that's a bit of a shoes again. I couldn't breathe and people were talking to me and I felt like I couldn't hear them or answer them in my heart. It was racing and my stomach flat. I was like, yeah, that's a panic attack. Yeah. That sucks. Yeah, welcome to the club, bitch.

Don't have one of those. If you get that, if you got a chance to make that decision, you don't ever have to look at it.

You know, if it's ever given to you in decision form, like, just mark no, never check the number.

Never. Like, you know how when you go to a website and it's like, except cookies for now or never, except cookies, never, except the cookies here. I allow them. You always allow them all the time. I don't know ways. I go back and forth. I always allow them because I just, I'm like, I just want to get to where you go. What even are they? They're like, the things that give, I think they're the things that give you like targeted ads. Oh, what are I like, a target ads? I'm a fucking sucker for targeted ads. These pants targeted ads.

There you go. I like them. You know what? Worth it. I'm a sucker for it on TikTok, I would say. Yeah, these are from TikTok. Yeah, the TikTok show.

“I remember when I was little Puppolo, it always clear that he'd go, I mean, I got to clear the cookies on the computer. Well, and you do have to do that sometimes, I think, because they can like bog down your shit.”

Even on my phone, I think. Fuck. I don't know. I am not in the business. He's not in. He knows. He's a younger generation who's aware. Yeah, we trust, we trust what he says on the cookies. I don't give a fuck. I know, like, the cookies you eat.

Yeah, I know. I made my first pumpkin loaf this week. The other day this weekend actually steal some of that. Yeah, it's pretty.

It smelled like fallen my home even though it was like 100,000 degrees and soupiest hell outside. Yeah, I was going to make a cinnamon pumpkin coffee cake situation, but then drew woke up before me and he was like, "Do you want to watch Vanderpump Rules all day?" And I said, "Oh, yeah, I can't." And so I laid on my couch and I watched Vanderpump Rules. And when I say all day, we've been only watching, maybe we've had like, I don't know, like five or six watch sessions. We're on season five. Yeah, you couldn't really bang those up because once you start, you can't stop. I have a confession to make Ken Todd kind of hot. Here's the thing. I get it because you explained when you first said it, I said, "Huh." And then you said, "When he says, "I'll knock you spark out when he's somebody disrespects Lisa."

That's the thing when he looks at him, that little fucking douche bag. Yeah, disrespecting his wife. And he says, "Oh, knock you spark out." I said, "It got hot in my bedroom." I said, " Ken Todd, I get it." I said, "Lisa, baby girl, I understand." Speaking of attractive people, yeah, thank you to everyone who's been tagging me in that that wicker man movie. What's that? Alexander Skarskard is in a new movie that looks so absurd. Really? I'm going to tell you what the premise is right now, and you are going to say, "What?" The response to this I've seen everywhere is this is our fault for asking for unique movies, but he plays, it's like this lady is in...

“I don't know. So let me see who is in it. Oh, Olivia Coleman, Queen. Olivia Coleman isn't it? And she's this lady in a village, and I think she's looking for a husband.”

So she goes to this magical person and says, "Make me a husband?" And they make her a husband who is Alexander Skarskard, but made out of wicker baskets. What? And then I think they just are horny, the whole movie, "How do you fuck wicker?" When it's Alexander Skarskard, I think, but everyone is tagged me in this, and I thank you. What is it called again? It's called wicker. Oh, it's called wicker. I looked up the wicker man. That is a skidge. That's a movie. Wicker. I meant like the wicker man, like the man made of wicker, but I should have been more.

So wicker. Wicker. Alexander Skarsk. Yep. He's a hot wicker basket. And it has shown me that Alexander Skarskard A can do nothing that will make him unattractive, and too, he loves to be as weird as fucking possible.

But I asked a question. You could get into this. The problem is he's wicker basket, but too, when he talks, it's Alexander Skarskard's voice. I don't know. I'm not there. I'm not Olivia Coleman. That's called that village. I'm not sure about this. But when he talked apparently part of the movie is that the rest of the village gets real jealous because he's wonderful, and they're all wanting the wicker basket, man. So it sounds like the funniest piece of cinema. I'm like, thank you for creating that. Are we going to go watch it? What the world needs now is wicker.

I have so much to say, but none of it will come out coherently. And again, I say, thank you to everyone who has tagged me and everything to do with this movie and then like a landed me.

We're getting tagged in things about this. On TikTok. Oh, I never look at my accent. Yeah, okay, I keep and now it's started popping up on my free page and of like, let's go girls.

This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen and you know what good for all of us. Good for us that you hear something new every day. It's true, but I love you guys. How does it go? Everyone who's had the same sense of humor that I've had about. I appreciate you and we are one. Just know that. But yeah, there's a lot of logistics. There is that we don't need to go into. I just love that he's like a weirdo. It reminds me it looks like a gray scale from Game of Thrones. Yeah, it could's like a. It's got that vibe. Yeah. Oh, remember, Jora. Oh, I know. Oh, we chore. Oh, that makes me sad. I know. I want to read that's the thing. I feel like I'm an end up feeling bad for Alexander Skarsgard.

“Yeah, because inevitably he's going to face some wicker problem. Yeah, like getting lit on fire or something. Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's what's probably going. Yeah, or he's going to be further.”

Yeah, something's going to happen. I personally don't like wicker furniture.

I don't need that's the problem. This is me, maybe I'm the rethink of it. I don't know. I also fucking hate the smell of wicker. So much. All right. We don't we don't need to take this into reality, okay? I'm just I have to. I have a lot of feelings and I have a lot of questions and I'm working through the mall. But you know what? Tell me the butcher legacy is coming out August 11th. That's like really soon. It's really soon. And I'm excited for you guys to see and I'm excited for you guys to see there's a little fun little Easter egg in there.

Well, that, you know, maybe it has to do with something that is on the front cover.

Maybe it has to do with a quote on the front cover of the ball.

So I said, I don't know if I've got for good. I have what.

“Go look for it. Look for it in the look for it in the look for it toward the middle. Yeah, you find it. You got to get. You'll find it if you get the book. So you should get the book.”

And yeah, it's coming out August 11th. You can pre order it. Now's the time to do it. And we're going to be a unlikely story. Yeah. And there's tickets to like that virtual event too, right? Yeah, because we're going to make it virtual in case you can't make it to one of the one of the stops you can catch it virtually. That'll be next week on the on pub day on the 11th. And that's exciting. Because I'm working on something else as we speak. Why? Yeah. So it's just a endless flow of creativity. Are you allowed to say anything about what you're working on? No.

Okay. But good to know. It's scary. I know in a different. Don't talk about it too much because I need to like sign an NDA or something. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like tell your sister show. Sorry. Don't worry. You'll know soon. Yeah. It's fine. I can't wait to talk about it. I can't. I also can't wait to read it. See that's one that I want to read the manuscript. I know, which is hard. Give me it. Yeah. I will. What it's done. All right. Cool. But yeah. So there's that that's all our business. We talked about, you know, a wicker Alexander scarred scarred.

I still have so many questions. Now I feel like I can smell wicker. Yeah. But yeah. Let's kind of transition into a story. I don't really know. So we're just going to go for it. This is Mark your stopwatches. Everybody. Yeah. This one. I'm sure it's like, whoo. Those are starting to book.

“We talked about a wicker basket Alexander scarred scarred. Okay. That's important.”

And I wanted to thank you to the people who attacked me in it. Missy showed me that wonderful world. This is about appreciation. Yeah. I love you guys. So this is an unsolved case. Remains unsolved. Oh. This is the unsolved murders of Barry and honey Sherman. I've heard of this case.

Also a quick little side note. Found out Tim Thames. Australian. Not Canadian. What?

“Yeah. Blue my minds. Sorry. I didn't give you your do. That's really because I love you guys. I might have been me, my baby. Who know. We'll both take credit for it. Yeah. But we love Australia and our Australian listeners.”

But you can get Tim Thames in Canada and you can't get them in the United States. Yeah. So that's crazy. Okay. Australia. You did your big story. Australia. I mean, Canada. You've done some great shit when it comes to food. Don't worry about it. Yeah. Don't worry about that. But Australia got to give you your do's for Tim Thames. Especially the caramel ones in my opinion. No. Well, you can like what you like. I'm just saying bitch. Why did that? That had like baby mama energy. She's like, I don't know your life.

It's true. It felt right. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to come home and stick them under by coffee table. Oh, all right. So I didn't realize it. All right. We called her a bitch, and now we could do it. You guys joined in all that. Everybody did too. So let's go back here. Now that I've given Australia their do this was on the morning of December 15th, 2017. Two workers arrived at the home of Barry and honey Sherman in North York, which is a wealthy suburban neighborhood in Toronto, Canada.

The two women had arrived at 830 in the morning every Friday for years. It was very normal. One was there to clean their very massive 12,000 square foot house holy shit. And the other thing can see the other came to water all the plants. Oh, yeah. They were probably a lot. As they walked up the long drive way, they went past a four sale sign in the yard. They were selling this massive house.

“They opened the lock box that contained the key to the front door and they entered the locked house.”

Yes, inside the house looked like it always did. There was no sign of any disturbances or any forced entry.

The two women got to work pretty quickly and they started on the main floor. And as they worked, the silence that it was in the house, which was like pretty normal. You know, like it's not like there was like a ton of chaos always going on in this house or anything. But the silence at this point was broken because they heard the sound of ringing, coming from somewhere on the first floor. Okay. So one of the women followed the sound to one of the bathrooms, where she found an iPhone lying face down on theiled floor.

But by the time she picked it up, the collared hung up also spooky on the bathroom floor. Yeah, which like she didn't think anything of it, so maybe she's found something like that before or maybe, okay. I don't know, she just put it on the counter and kept cleaning. Now the first sign that something wasn't quite right was in the second floor primary bedroom. For as long as she had been cleaning for the shermons, she said that she had come to expect a kind of messy bedroom when she arrived each week.

“Nothing crazy, just like the bed on maid, you know, the previous day's clothing may be scattered a little bit.”

Honey, I really, it's so hard. But on that morning, the bed was made and the room was pretty neat and tidy. So she was like, whatever, it was just an anomaly. Maybe they just decided to pick up. She's like, shit, they're turned over. Yeah, she was like, holy shit. So she turned her attention to the surface, you know, the surfaces and the room and started dusting and just doing that stuff. Now at 10 a.m. real estate agent, at least stern arrived.

The house, like I said, was placed on the market a few weeks earlier with an asking price of $6.9 million.

I mean, it's a $12,000. I was going to say it to you. And at least we're sharing the listing with another agent Judy Gottlieb. Everyone was super eager to sell the property obviously. Because that big commission, but the request for showing that morning had come in at the last minute. And at least hadn't been able to get a hold of barrier honey, despite making several fun calls to them that morning. She didn't want to miss the opportunity to put to that's a hard house to sell. I imagine not a lot of people are buying or the market for a $6.9 million house.

So she rolled the dice and hoped it would be acceptable to the perspective to bring the perspective buyers through that morning. Okay. Now a short time later, a young couple arrived with their realtor and stern and they began the tour. Starting on the second floor, she pointed out all the best features. You know, it had the typical stuff. It was huge. It was luxurious marble all that could stuff.

The first floor was equally impressive.

So they moved to the basement and stern continued to highlight all the unique features. It had a very big heated garage that led out to the heated driveway. There was a seat or sauna and all the storage areas that led to one of the home's biggest selling points. A lap pool. A lap pool. Yeah.

That's sick. I want a sauna so badly. I sauna stress me out. Oh, bitch. I don't like the sauna. It just, it gets everything hot. Yeah.

It makes me want to throw up.

If I go to like a spa or something, I go into the sauna and then I go in the cold pool and then I go into the hot tub.

Wow. Yeah. It's my, it's made. See, that sounds like it would make me vomit. Really? All that temperature dysregulation would fuck me up.

Oh, I love it. I need to, I can't. It's probably like looking not good for you. I don't know. Like my way.

Yeah.

“I'm like, doesn't that, that would make me nauseous?”

Well, when you go in the sauna, you're like so, so hot. Yeah. But then it's like, I like being too cold so then I finish off in the hot tub. There you go. That's a little bit like this house.

Oh, yeah.

I would have bought it for sure.

Yeah. No, for sure. Easy. Yeah. Oh, yes.

Yeah. That's it. When they reach the end of the hallway, stern press the red button on the wall. The disengage, the safety lock on the glass door, which was just one of the many safety features built around the pool, which is also good.

As they walked through the door, at least stern stopped abruptly. And she was startled because she found, oh, the shermons are home. And so she said, oh, I'm so sorry. And then she turned to the perspective buyers and politely ushered them out of the room. And she said, they're doing yoga, I think.

We'll come back. Okay. So, at least stern had been so surprised to find them in the basement that she was too preoccupied with not intruding to notice that something was terribly wrong with the scene. She had just witnessed by the pool.

They're doing yoga. Later, she would tell the family. She had initially thought the couple were, quote, performing some sort of odd meditation. The realtor for the potential buyers had also caught a glimpse of the room. And saw what he later described as, quote, something left over from Halloween,

sitting by the pool. Two very different descriptions. Yeah, which again, like, yeah, very different descriptions. I, in that moment, I don't know how you grasp what you see. I don't know how they were found to say.

Yeah, with the potential buyers now gone and quiet returning to the house. At least as mine went back to Barry and Honey Sherman because they kind of like, I should've been sort of the buyers, like the whole house. Yeah, they went through the whole house. Holy shit.

And that was what was weird. They were like, you didn't notice us at all in the house. Like, and then when we interrupted you, like, you just really didn't mind.

“Like you didn't come back out and be like, oh, maybe that's why she thought they were,”

like, so transfixed. Yeah, so maybe that's why she was like, oh, they must be meditating. And she had told the, like, I guess the buyers were like a little weirded up at the whole thing. So they were like, oh, we're just gonna leave. Okay.

So they leave. It's quiet in the house again. And at least as mine went back to Barry and Honey. They were, she said they were occasionally eccentric, especially when it came to their taste and art and decor. But in their mid 70s, neither struck her as the type would probably be into meditation or yoga.

Like they just didn't have that vibe. But she'd only got a quick look before turning the buyers in their agent around. So they was, but she was like, there was something about that scene that just felt wrong. I didn't get a good look, but like something was nagging up at me. But she couldn't put her finger on it.

Okay. Now, at least called out for the, the woman who was cleaning the house who was just quietly making her way through the second floor bedrooms. And the woman came downstairs and like at least she had no idea the Sherman's were at home. And she hadn't seen them since she and the other woman had arrived a few hours earlier. So she was like, they have not been upstairs in the house.

At least asked her to go downstairs and take a look into the pool room, hoping the woman might be able to figure out what was going on. Or at least why something felt off to her? Yeah. And a few minutes later the woman returned a shocked look on her face and she was visibly upset and having trouble even getting outwards. But eventually she managed to say call the police.

Oh fuck. So at least stern was right. They were not meditating or doing yoga. Like her got was telling her they were dead. Oh.

Now, this is like a real fact that like so when this happened in another case that I was reading about actually recently. When people are confronted with incredibly tragic or like terrifying things. Yeah.

Their first instinct isn't always to call the police.

Yeah. Sometimes that just doesn't happen at first. Like in fact for whatever reason when a least stern picked up her phone, she didn't dial 911 as the woman had asked. But instead she called honey Sherman's sister Mary. And she lived in Florida and after hearing what at least had to say Mary insisted she called the police immediately.

Yeah. And ultimately nearly 90 minutes passed between the discovery of the Sherman's bodies and when the report was made to police. Okay. Which is like a lot. Yeah.

Like I can understand the initial like I've never been in the position of discovering a dead body. Yeah, we don't have to you know like calling somebody sister and obviously reporting awful news. Like but yeah. Like that's a that's a different call than calling the police. Not everybody's like super used to calling the police.

Well, that's I think it's just like she might have been in shock. She might have been a just yeah. You don't know. You don't know. We actually act differently in certain situations.

“That's why we're always like a little on the fence about judging people like grieving and shit.”

Like she's at all a little different. But 90 minutes. Yeah.

That's an hour and a half.

Yeah. That's what I don't understand. And you don't really think you're at. No. A little before noon two Toronto police officers arrived at the house along with two paramedics and a firefighter.

In the basement next to the pool, they found the couple just as the woman upstairs said they would. Barry Sherman was in a sitting position. His legs outstretched with his right leg crossed over his left. He was fully dressed. His bomber jacket pulled down slightly in a way that would have kept his arms pinned at his side.

And he was still wearing his glasses. So you can kind of see why maybe she did look like they were just sitting or like stretching. We're not for the fact that he was very clearly dead when you came close to him. One could have easily assumed that he was just sitting down resting by the pool. Okay.

Now, beside Barry was honey Sherman, his wife of 47 years. She too had her coat pulled down off her shoulders to keep her arms to her side. And unlike Barry, who look completely undisturbed, really, honey had an injury on her face. Like she had been struck by something or someone. Yeah.

As far as the paramedics could tell, the couple had been there for at least a day, maybe more. Rigor mortis had already come and gone.

“The only thing holding them in a sitting position were the leather belts wrapped around their next.”

I was just wondering how they were still there. They were secured tightly to the three foot high railings surrounding the pool. So they were sitting. So they were staged. Like they were hanged.

What the fuck? And also wearing their jackets. Yeah. That's so bizarre. Now hours later, the Sherman House was filled with uniformed officers, detectives, crime scene technicians.

Like most of the houses on an old colony road, the Sherman didn't have security cameras outside the house. Which is strange. Yeah.

There was, though, a security camera in the pool room. Unfortunately, it had never been set up.

So it was useless. Oh, fuck. There was also the problem of the workers who derived that morning by the time the bodies had been discovered. And the police were called. They had the cleaning women had basically finished her work effectively wiping away any potential fingerprints or evidence.

Which is not her fault. No. Literally her job. But that's such a strange thing. To, you know, outside of the bodies by the pool and the basement, nothing about the scene really seemed unusual outside of them.

Right. With an estimated net worth of $4.6 billion. Very Sherman would have made a perfect target for this kind of like a robbery. Yeah. But as far as anyone could tell nothing in the house was missing.

What does it just doesn't sound like a robbery? And the, the woman who was cleaning didn't remember finding anything being disturbed when she, when she arrived. Yes. Inside the phone. Like, and the, the bedroom was not a small meeting.

Yeah. Yeah. Your tidier than it had ever been. And when they arrived for work that morning, the two women had found the door locked. And they used the key in the lock box to enter.

“And for those lock boxes, you have to have a code.”

Well, that makes you think did somebody have that code. Who had the code exactly? The rest of the entrances were all locked. And there was no sign of forced entry. I fucking hate a lock box.

Yeah. Now, late that afternoon, surrounded by reporters on the front lawn of the Sherman House.

Investigators gave the first of what would be many, many press conferences about the case.

Constable David Hopkins and told reporters, the circumstances of their deaths appear to be suspicious. I'd say so, brother. Wow. Thank you.

Thank you for that. Thank you. And now his statement was brief. I'd say so. But it was followed by a second statement a few hours later.

This time from Detective Brandon Price. According to Price, he said there was no sign of forced entry and no obvious motive.

“He said I just wanted to alleviate some concerns in the neighborhood.”

At this point, indications are that we have no outstanding suspect to be going after. OK. In other words, the deaths may have been suspicious, but investigators didn't seem to think it was. Didn't seem to think it was a homicide. Maybe.

Or more. That they thought it was somebody that was clearly targeting them or was like in their circle. Yeah. Now, as the founder, Chairman and CEO of Apatex Inc. One of the largest pharmaceutical companies in Canada,

Barry Sherman had a significant public profile and the news of his death was shocked to the city's elite circles. Mayor John Tory told the reporter, "I'm shocked and heartbroken to learn that Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead in their home today. I've had the privilege of knowing them both well for many years." They also like that.

That just sounds like the sweetest couple. I know Barry and Honey and Honey. That is a really cute 47 years. Yeah. And her name was Anna, but she was just called honey.

That's so cute. Now, that sentiment was shared by Ontario Health Minister Eric Hoskins. He said, "I cannot begin to find the words to express my deep sorrow and profound sadness

But Hoskins was quick to add that the public should be careful not to jump to conclusions.

“Said Toronto Police are investigating and I hope that investigation”

will be able to provide answers for all of us who are mourning this tremendous loss. If this is determined to be a homicide, all the information identifying who we found. And circumstances may be released. But let's say this was an accident or something. Then the family deserves some privacy.

I don't know how that would be an accident though. They theorized pretty quickly. Okay. In the days that followed the discovery, the press and public grew increasingly frustrated with the Toronto Police because they remained very tight-lipped about the investigation.

But sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes it's a good thing. I would beg to say that it's probably because he's a pharmaceutical CEO. They're being like, yeah, which would be frustrating to not know what the hell is going on. But they were refusing to reveal any details.

And behind the scenes, there was a significant contingent of the investigation

who believed that, while certainly suspicious looking, they felt that it seemed more

than likely that Barry had murdered Honey than killed himself. But this was a murder suicide. Okay. There was no sign of force dentry, nothing appeared to be missing, and it was only Honey

“who appeared to have suffered a physical injury before death.”

That said, there was no evidence to support the murder suicide theory, which is likely why investigators kept it among themselves. At least for a day or so. Okay. On December 17th, an article appeared in the Toronto Star,

reporting that according to the source within the department, quote, Toronto Police are investigating the possibility that the deaths of Billionaires shared Barry Sherman and his wife were murdered suicide. By the end of the day, the story had been picked up by other print and cable news outlets and Ontario, then the U.S., and then everywhere.

That would just be such as obviously like it can happen. But that would be the strangest setup for a murder suicide. It would definitely be strange. And they, that plays into, you know, the doubts. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So there's, there's a strange. Well, and there's no evidence to support it when it comes right down to it. Okay.

And, but they had nothing to go off of. So it has to start somewhere. It was, it was irresponsible in my opinion to throw that into the news right away. Because if you don't have anything that says that, then don't, don't say that. Yeah.

I wouldn't even say that about it. But, you know, interesting that it was a source within the department. It's like, yeah, you. How's it? Hey, you.

Now, according to the anonymous source within the Toronto Police, the theory was that Barry had strangled his wife in a rage, then took his own life, a notion that to everyone who knew them seemed completely absurd and impossible. Yeah. The Sherman's children said in a statement to the press,

"Arch parents shared enthusiasm for life and commitment to their family and community totally inconsistent with the rumors regretably circulated in the media as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths." Yeah, I'd be pissed if my parents were married for 47 years and then the second they die, everyone's like, "Oh, they did it to each other."

Yeah. And that's, and also, it's like, say what you want about, you know, like billionaires and like, we all feel a certain way. And like, it's pharmaceuticals, CEOs and all that. We all understand that sentiment.

But kids, they have kids, and those kids don't have anything to do with anything that people might or might not have been involved. And you know what I mean?

Yeah, that's the part that always makes me feel bad.

It's like the kids. Yeah. And to have that kind of stuff being thrown around, it's like, they're dealing with like very real emotions. And you know, it's like, that always makes me sad for them.

“That they don't get to say in how it's portrayed, you know?”

Yeah. You can dehumanize people to eat something. Yeah. Just like for their sake. And the statement went on to say, we are shocked and think it's irresponsible

that police sources have reportedly advised the media of a theory which neither their family, their friends, nor their colleagues believed to be true. We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough intensive and objective criminal investigation. And urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these

tragic deaths until the investigation is complete. Yeah. From the moment the police got to the Sherman's House a few days earlier, investigators appeared to treat the deaths with a pretty casual and difference that didn't match the bizarre scene in the basement.

Because it's like, that's a weird scene. Yeah. Like that's a weird scene. That's one of the weirdest that we've discussed. These aren't people who just got like, and this isn't to say that this is like,

okay, or anything like that. But it's like, it's not a scene that they've come across very often. You know, like, these aren't like gunshot wounds and left on the floor, which is horrific and tragic. But something they have unfortunately probably seen before detectives.

I feel like this is something you probably haven't. It's a weirdly staged scene. Well, and that's the biggest thing is the staging. Like they're wearing their jackets. He has his legs crossed.

There's belts around their neck and tie next to the wall. Like tied to the railing.

Like isn't everybody thinking of this?

“Because if I'm like, again, weird things happen.”

But if it wasn't murder suicide, I don't think that's typically, yeah. What everybody's come across before and in those kinds of cases. Yeah, no matter what, no matter what you feel or what you think, that it's a strange scene.

Yeah. It's very strange. It's so strange to me that they're still wearing their jacket. Yeah. I don't know why I'm so stuck on that.

Yeah. That's weird. No, days later, the case was still being treated as a suspicious death. Yeah.

Handled by officers working out of the 33rd precinct with rumors about unsupported theories being leaked to the press.

And maybe investigators did really believe that the Sherman's death was a case of murder suicide, or maybe it was just a rumor among the precinct and it got out of control. Like we don't know. As far as the family was concerned, it was absolute nonsense. And not a theory that they were willing to even slightly pursue.

Just days before their deaths, honey had been excitedly planning a trip for the two of them to visit family in Florida. And they just welcomed a brand new grandchild. Oh, oh. As far as anyone knew, they had everything to look forward to. And we're still completely devoted to one another after nearly five decades together.

Yeah. Like it just didn't seem like that was in the cards. Obviously, nobody knows everything that's going on behind closed doors. Or usually when you when you dig a little bit something, that's the thing. And usually can sense a little bit of something.

It just didn't seem like that was in the cards at all.

Yeah. Now, just one day after the rumors of a murder suicide leaked several officers were sent to the medical examiner's office to be on hand during the autopsy. And we're expected to take notes and be ready to receive any samples or evidence. Now, this was technically the department's protocol, but it was not a practice. The department had been very strict about in the past because a lot of people don't want to be at an autopsy.

Yeah. But they definitely wanted them there for like crimes that definitely had a criminal element to it. So it was a step in the right direction. It was a sign that the department was starting to take the case more seriously. And we're open to the possibility that they had indeed been murdered.

Now, pathologist Dr. Michael pick up was a sign to conduct both autopsy's. It would be his responsibility to determine whether there was any truth to the rumors that had been circulating. Okay. Under normal circumstances such a high profile case would have been handed to Ontario's chief pathologist who was Dr. Michael pulling in. But he was unavailable.

So it went to his like unofficial seconding command, Michael pick up. Okay.

“Now, among the more important findings noted in pick up support was that Barry's high od bone,”

which was a small bone in the neck that supports the tongue and allows for swallowing. It was completely intact. Okay. Now, the high od bone is pretty fragile. So in cases of violent strangulation or hanging, it's pretty common for it to be broken.

I'm sure we could be less than you've definitely heard that. The same would be true if the individual were subjected to a quick tightening around your neck. Like what happened with a belt. It would let your high od bone would likely break. Yeah.

In fact, cases of strangulation where the high od bone was not broken were most often cases of suicide, the individual slowly tightens the ligature around their neck or drops for a short distance. Okay. Sherman removed the bone and set it aside for closer inspection than he continued working his way down the body.

Now, that high od bone, that would have supported the murder suicide to be honest. But the rest of Barry's body did not. Now, Barry was 75 years old and he wasn't like super muscular. Like wasn't like, you know, like it wasn't a gym rat that's 75. At the time, investigators believe Barry had, quote, overpowered his wife and another part of the house,

strangled her, dragged her down a flight of stairs and positioned her beside the pool, holding her in a seat of position with a leather belts around her neck. So if she was like dragged, I feel like there would be evidence of that on her body. Yeah.

“And that would have honestly been hard for a young man to do.”

Like that would have taken a lot. Yeah, considerable effort. And as the autopsy went on, things only got more confusing. Around Barry's wrists, there appeared to be some sort of abrasions, as though his wrist had been bound with rope or plastic zip tie at some point before his death.

Okay. But when the bodies were discovered, neither of the victims hands were bound. Now, although the pathologists couldn't determine whether Barry's wrist had been bound in front or behind his back, he was fairly confident that he had indeed been bound at the wrist, which further weakened the murder suicide.

Now, moving to honey, Dr. Pickup started at the head and began working his way down. And the most notable difference between Barry and honey was that, like we said before, she had a fresh wound on her face. Right. But there was no bruising indicating that she died not long after she was struck.

Uh-huh. Now, unfortunately, the pathologist was unable to figure out how she had got the injury to her face. But honey's injuries were similar to her other injuries were similar to her husband's. The neck muscles and thyroid cartilage had been injured in the same manner. And her high-ode bone was still intact.

Yep.

Finally, there was the cause of death.

“It was clear from the evidence that the shurments had died of ligature strangulation or neck compression.”

And during that, their tracheon larynx were closed off, which prevents breathing. Although the marks on the next match, the belts found at the scene, making it likely that they were the murder weapon. Dr. Pickup noted that he could only speculate that the belts at the scene were the same use to kill them. Also, while he may not have put it in his report,

it occurred to Dr. Pickup that if this was in fact a suicide, it was a surprisingly elaborate one that seemed overly complicated and very difficult. Right. And again, the wrist, the binding of the wrist, just made it. No, that's too weird.

Now, although it would be several more weeks before the Sherman's deaths were classified as homicides, detectives from the Toronto Homicide Squad were added to the investigation right after the autopsy. In the absence of an evidence or leaves, the detectives turned to, you know, personal histories hoping they could find someone there. Yeah. Now, Barry Sherman was born in Toronto, Ontario, on February 25th, 1942.

“He was the son of Herbert and Sarah Sherman.”

He actually had an unfinished memoir that he was writing.

Oh, and he had started writing it in 1996 and he wrote his quote, first 10 years were unremarkable.

He grew in forest hill and grew up in forest hill, a wealthy suburb of Toronto that would eventually be annexed and incorporated into the city itself. His father was the president of the America Trimming Company, a corporation that made zippers and his mother was a homemaker. Okay. Now, by all accounts, Barry's early life was pretty unremarkable, but that changed in 1952 when he was just 10 years old. One morning in mid-November, Herbert Sherman went to work, and a few hours later, he suffered a massive heart attack at his desk, killing him instantly.

And he was only 47. Jesus. It turned out that he had a heart defect that he had known about, but it not told anyone about. Oh, that's really sad. Barry wrote obviously he should have told her, meaning his mother.

But he theorized that his father would have perceived this knowledge as a burden, so he kept it to himself. Yeah. At the time of his death, he owned a small stake in the zipper company, so he was able to leave some money to his wife.

“But it was not enough to care for two children, so she had to go back to work as like a occupational therapist.”

Okay. Now, despite dealing with the sudden death of his father, Barry was smart and committed to getting good grades and later developed a real aptitude for math and science. He later wrote, "Although I do not know to what extent, if any, I was affected by my father's death." A psychologist said that the drive to achieve, which a later exhibited, was caused at least in part by resulting insecurity. Okay.

Which, like, okay. Maybe. After he graduated from high school, Barry went to work for his uncle Lou Winter, at one of the two pharmaceutical factories went her own in Toronto. Lou in Kevin Donovan, who we have linked in the show notes. He wrote, Lou Winter was not a surrogate father, but he was someone Sherman looked up to.

His uncle was incredibly successful, professionally and financially, and Barry saw that such power and wealth offered considerable opportunities in life. I mean, yeah. When Barry enrolled at the University of Toronto the next year, he chose to pursue degree in chemistry. Eventually reaching the top of his class by graduation, and chemistry is hardest. Yuck.

And Sherman wrote, "It seems that the tougher things got, the better I did." Now, the year after he graduated, Barry was working at his uncle's company when his first big break came. At the time, Barry's aunt and uncle were on vacation, so when a call came in from a major distributor, regarding the purchase of generic aspirin, Barry saw to us an opportunity to prove himself in the business world. Taking the initiative, he got on the phone with the supplier and, quote, "negotiated the purchase of a substantially increased quantity

at a substantially lower price." When his uncle returned and learned of the deal as nephew, it made he was very, very pleased. Okay. Just giving succession. Yeah.

Barry said, "Although I did not know at that time, these summers that empire laboratories would later prove to be of critical importance to my future career."

Now, his intention had had been to graduate from college and pursue a graduate degree in aeronautics, but the university had other plans. The focus is aeronautics. Yeah. It doesn't have to do with like flying.

Oh, maybe arrow. Or like airspace kind of things? Can't tell you. Aerostronautics. The science and art of designing building and operating flight capable machines.

That's cool. It makes sense there. Let me see. That is cool. That takes him know how.

That's next level. Now, after just one year at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, I teach Barry got a call from a sister to tell him that Uncle Lou had died. Oh. I just 41 years old.

He had suffered an aneurysm at the office.

“She's the employees called an ambulance, but by the time that got to the hospital, it was too late.”

A few months later, his Aunt Beverly lose wife died from leukemia, which left the couples for small children orphaned. Oh. And Barry later recalled, I couldn't adopt them myself. I was just a kid myself. No, you're like 20 something.

Instead, the children went to live with a local family. He offered to buy shares in his uncle's company after his death, especially since the company was having financial issues. But that offer was initially rejected. Oh. Now, Barry returned to Boston and finished his PhD.

But his experiences with his uncle's businesses had sparked an intense interest in science and business for him. So you wanted to combine them. So after graduating from MIT, he went back to Toronto, determined to become his own boss as his own company. Oh, yeah.

Now, by the time Barry got back to Canada, the financial problems with the company, they got so much worse.

He wasn't part of the company, but they were a lot worse. And the company had become insolvent. Once again, Barry offered to buy the shares in the company. But in this time, he added a provision that his four young cousins would all be entitled to work at the company and have the right to purchase five percent of the company shares. Provided certain conditions were made. Okay.

Which, like, five percent. That's a little lower. I was like, excuse me, Mary. Yeah.

“I'm like, I can do a lot better than that.”

Yeah, five percent is a little crazy. I don't know a lot about shares, but like, it feels like that's not a lot. You know, business and all. Yeah, exactly. Now, this time, the bank decided to take him up on his offer and using money borrowed from their parents.

Barry and his long time, long lifelong best friend, Joel Ulster, purchased the shares for $450,000. Damn. Now, when Barry and Joel settled into their new company, they were pretty surprised to learn that things were a lot worse financially than they anticipated. Just two years later, they decided to sell the company to one of the biggest customers. International chemical and nuclear corporation, making ICNC the owners of Empire, the actual company.

The deal was a financial boon for Sherman and Ulster, but the sale avoided the previous contract that allowed the benefits for his cousins. Oh, where once they would have been provided for financially and had guaranteed employment, should they want it, they now had nothing. And that was essentially their inheritance. Yeah. So that was fucked up.

That's a stain. Yeah, that's not good. Now, one year later in 1971, Sherman and Ulster went on to form Apatex, a pharmaceutical company that like Empire manufactured generic drugs.

“Yeah, that was also the year Barry met Honey Reich, and her name was Anna, but they called her honey. He's like so cute. I can't get out of there.”

She was born in Austria in 1947 in a postwar camp for displaced people. Oh, my god. Just a few years earlier, her parents, naftuli and Helen Reich, had been freed from a Nazi work camp by the Allied forces and would eventually emigrate to Canada. Oh, my god. Honey's parents owned and operated a small shoe store in downtown Toronto, and the family lived in a small home in North York.

Honey's sister Mary later recalled, our parents bought a house and rented out every square inch of it, despite the chaos of living in a boarding house, the Reich's managed to provide for their children and were generally very supportive and kind parents. Nice. After graduating from high school, Honey enrolled at the Ontario College of Education in particular teaching degree.

Never wanted to like downtime, while she was completing her teacher training in the late 1960s.

Honey took a volunteer job at Mount Sinai Hospital for the summer. She was very into philanthropy. Thank you. I almost said philanthropic. No, I almost do that every time I say I go to say like philanthropy. Yeah, philanthropic.

It's so hard. She was very into. She was very philanthropic. Yes. She was very into charity. She was a.

Yeah. Philanthropist. Yes. You're right. Let's stop saying words.

Hard. Not me helping you and then getting it. It's hard to say. But yeah, she took a volunteer job at Mount Sinai Hospital. And that's when she met and befriended Cindy Ulster, a nurse and the wife of Barry's business partner, Joel.

Oh, there it is. Cindy and honey developed a fast friendship. And eventually she introduced her to honey. They started dating in by 1971. Honey and Barry were married.

So sweet. Do anyone who knew them both? Honey and Barry were the classic case of opposites attract. Really? Where he was very quiet and reserved and just kind of like head down.

Do you work? Honey was loud. She was outgoing. She loved to throw a party. She loved to socialize.

My head to gal. That said, it seems little is known about their personal relationship dynamic. Okay. By the time Apatex was making massive profits.

But she often did that alone.

She would leave Barry home or like to work. Okay. She just wasn't like super social. It was her thing for sure. Okay.

Now, by late January 2018, Barry and honey's deaths were formally classified as homicides. Okay. But if detectives were hoping to find a clue to their killer's motive or identity in the victims pass, they were very frustrated when nothing was really jumping out of them. As far as anyone could tell, honey, especially was very well liked and a very active member of the community with no enemy.

Yeah. I mean, you barely definitely had some stuff going on.

“That I think gets super complicated in this particular business and pharmaceutical.”

Pharmaceuticals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's tough.

The problem wasn't so much that investigators couldn't find any leads or information. But it was that everyone they talked to seemed unwilling or unable to provide anything of value. After interviewing a hundred and twenty-seven people, investing more than a thousand hours into the case, most things seemed to point back to Sherman's company, Apatex. Okay.

Unfortunately, when it came to getting any information from the exact set of Apatex, no one was forthcoming. Yeah. Like Rome said, legal complexities and some executions have been challenging, giving the litigious nature of Barry Sherman's businesses. In particular, the search and seizure of electronics and Barry Sherman's workspace at Apatex. It turned out that, I mean, it was pretty much stonewalling is what they're describing.

But it was a little more complicated than that. According to defense lawyer, Anthony MuStoculus, if you're dealing with a company that's got a ton of lawsuits going on, the company has an obligation to protect its legal rights. So it's not that they would resist the reward, but they would have to call lawyers to say, we want to make sure we're only giving them what is related to their investigation and nothing else.

Yeah. Super complicated.

Basically, Apatex had a lot of legal battles related to their manufacturing at the time.

They were in a lot of lawsuits, all of which had to be considered with regard to what information they released to the police and the press. They couldn't just hand information that was being used in a lawsuit. Yeah. That's like privileged. Yeah, and it's just if it's being used in this lawsuit for something else, you can't now throw it out into the public.

Yeah.

“Now, regardless of how it was framed, goams in the rest of the investigation team felt certain the key to breaking the Sherman case was hidden somewhere in Apatex.”

And they really thought it was probably in berries, like private communications. Okay. And it turned out there was good reason to believe that. Can they not get his private communications? They had their struggling to get a warrant for any of it.

Wow, even though. Because again, it's on a company computer. Okay. So it's like not for most of his life. Barry Sherman's public persona was that of a wealthy intelligent and somewhat aloof business man with an act for making money.

But there was another side of Barry that the press and public didn't know a lot about. Okay. In April 2018, McLean's magazine published a piece that investigative journalists had spent months researching. That exposed Barry's more questionable side of his financial life. Okay.

The piece referred to Sherman as quote, a hard-nosed strategic genius. But it also said he, quote, conducted business with known criminals. He was a billionaire, driven to litigation, less by money than something more primal. And since of righteous started to that propelled him to prevail at any cost. So he was dealing with some shady characters giving, it's giving Logan Roy.

It is giving Logan Roy. In addition to this. Exactly. Now, thank you, Kendall. Patience.

No problem. Just. No. In addition to his questionable financial dealings, the ongoing investigation by the Toronto police and Canadian journalists. Revealed that despite Barry and honey status as quote, charity royalty and fixtures on the Gala circuit.

Barry shrewd an often ruthless approach to deal making had made him a long list of enemies over the course of his 50 year. You know, 50 plus year career in the industry. I don't think you often get to billionaire status without making enemies along the way. You got to have the longest list of enemies of your breaching billionaires status. That's just how I feel.

That's yeah. Now, the question was, which also, I'm like, it can't be worth it. No, it can't be worth that. I think so. That's just my opinion is I don't think it's worth.

And, you know, the amount of shit that is going to surround you.

To get to billionaire status that you'll never be able to spend in your lifetime or your family.

That's my biggest thing. You know, you'll never be able to spend it in your lifetime. And you won't spend that in your lifetime. That's crazy. Well, we'll leave it there because exactly we could talk about this for a while.

You're really going to do it. But the question was, had Barry angered one or more of those enemies to the extent that they sought revenge by doing something so heinous, killing him into life.

“And also, like, how would they gain access to their role?”

That's the other thing. There's no forced entry. Right. And the doors were locked. Like what?

And then somebody, like, would it be possible that somebody didn't like close the lock box all the way?

I guess I don't, I don't really know what the lock box looked like.

That's a good question. Yeah.

“I think those lock boxes are pretty secure.”

Because I mean, that's a, it's a lot of liability to be secure. But at the same time, like, maybe if it's not closed properly. I don't know. What did these lock boxes even look like? Lock box.

It's usually like a big, like padlock with regard that you put like a code into. See? But there's various different kinds. I feel like it would be tough to not close it properly. Yeah.

Yeah. But could it have been, like, some kind of setup where it was intentionally not closed properly? I mean, maybe, you know, I'm getting into it. Or somebody who knows the lock box code. Well, that's the simplest.

That's the simplest. Yeah. You know?

Now, it wasn't as though Barry himself had not considered this.

Yeah. Yeah, being a issue, like security, being an issue for him, but it's so interesting. They didn't have cameras. Yeah. That's the thing.

Now, in a late 90s interview, he acknowledged that he was an easy target for, you know, potentially murder. He said, perhaps I'm surprised that hasn't happened. That's got to be a wild thing to come to terms. Yeah. Now, in the 20 years that followed that interview, as Apotex expanded around the world,

becoming serious competition for countless other drug companies. That list of potential enemies only grew. Yeah. And he was already worried about them. And it grew exponentially.

In one considered Sherman's investments outside of the farm industry, which was in diamonds, the film industry, horse racing among others. We're sorry. What was it? His investments outside of the, a farm industry.

Diamonds, film industry, horse racing, other shit, horse racing shit. At least, watch Peaky Blonders, my friend. And that's watch Peaky Blonders. Yeah, you don't want that shit. The film industry, the show's on the lab grown any day.

Like, got down, got down. Like that shit. You know, this is the perfect time. Keep it quiet, I'll be creepy. You got to keep it quiet on the creek and those industries.

I heard the guys are saying that, and I love it. Ashen formed to me that the kids are saying are not saying down low or anything. Actually, well, that's what I think. She's, she's found out that this could potentially be a new thing. It's keep it quiet on the creek.

And at first, it seemed too much for me because I'm just sick of new things coming up.

A grew on her. But then I was like, wait, that does feel like some kind of like 20, 30 slang where it's like, keep it quiet on the creek. You can hear somebody with like a transatlantic accent saying, you know? So I like a little smoke.

Yeah, I'm saying, hey, keep it quiet on the creek. I had to use it. I do like that. I'm obsessed with it. I hope the kids start using it to be honest.

Yeah, I'm okay with that one. It's better than 67. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That. And when when you first start this, you say, oh, what could have happened? Like, what, you know? And then you're like, oh, and then you're like, oh, no, there's about 100 different avenues to go down. 100 different avenues.

But still, super strange circumstances with no forced entry.

“That's what I can't wrap my head around.”

That's what really brings me back. Yeah. Uh-huh. Unless it's some kind of like, and is it's theoretical? Unless it's some kind of like inside job.

Yeah. We're somebody knows a code. So it shares it with somebody else. And like, it's very strange. Yeah.

It's all very strange. Now, all of the more in the city of activities that were discovered during this period, significantly, like, we were just saying complicated matters for investigators. It's a lot of avenues to go down. Yeah, exactly.

Like, and, you know, it's, they didn't really need to dig too deep to find all this stuff. Like, Barry was actively involved in various legal battles that out as of recent years, what before they were murdered, had become pretty heated. Oh, shit. Uh, there was the lawsuit against the employee of architects who was fired for allegedly stealing

drug formulations, which eventually led to the more serious allegations of corporate espionage. Um, and outside of the company, and we're not saying, like, you know, anything about this is just another ongoing legal battle that he was obviously in was with his four cousins. The children of Lou and Beverly Winter, who were suing over what they said was their lost inheritance. Oh, fuck.

There was also the fact that the shamans had recently placed their home on the market, which is stressful, you know, under any circumstances, but also they had to open up their home to strangers.

“So who knows if somebody came and looked at the house?”

Here's the other thing. They possibly, like, somebody could have come and looked at the house and seen the code. Exactly. Yeah. Watch the person entering.

So I want to, like, where's the list of people that looked at that house? Yeah. And there is supposed to be a list. Yeah. Now, despite all the potential suspects and motives uncovered in their investigation,

and especially into the dealings at Apatex, and the countless hours invested in taking witness statements. By the end of 2018, detectives were no closer to finding the Sherman's killer than they were on day ones. The team of private investigators hired by the Sherman family was also

According to journalist Matthew Campbell, the case was a series of contradictions.

“On the one hand, there was the obviously personal nature of the murders,”

quote, painful, terrifying, and indicating a passion it desired to see them suffer. Yeah. And it really was that. But he said, on the other hand, the tinieness of the crime scene and the lack of evidence left behind, suggested the work of a dispassionate professional.

Someone who had done this. And he wrote with little concrete information available. Friends and colleagues have projected a tangle of theories into the void, speculating variously about the culpability of rival drug makers, disgruntled ex-employees and gangsters.

Oh, fuck.

Now, amidst all the wild speculation from the public, investigators were

typed about the homicide squads investigation. By then, the spring of 2019, the once massive team of investigators assigned to the case had been whittled down to just five detectives working full-time on it. Most of their time was spent digging through a seemingly endless number of electronic documents and correspondence. But eventually, that paid off.

Okay. In April, homicide detectives reported that they had, quote, an idea of what happened to the Sherman's. But they not only refused to share the theory with the press. They actually went so far as to petition a judge to get all public documents related to the case sealed. Well, that makes you wonder how fucking big that goes.

Yeah. Like who's that in the center of about theory.

“Detective Dennis Yem said, I think everyone, everything needs to be sealed”

because if the information were to be revealed, potential suspects would take steps to get rid of other evidence. Oh. Yeah. More espionage. Now, the contents of these documents would remain sealed in detectives' theories as to what happened appear to go nowhere.

By the end of 2019, the detectives, private detectives hired by the Sherman family, closed their case, citing a lack of evidence or new information. They just said, we can't move forward. Okay. The Toronto police also started to rethink their approach as the case was getting colder and colder.

Rather than pursuing new leads or witnesses, they shifted their attention to their surveillance video footage, taken from the security cameras that were around the home like in the home. Oh, they, so they did have some in the home. Only in some places, I think. Okay.

“So they were trying to review them for anything, but I don't think they never said that I need to go on them.”

When asked, a spokesperson for the Toronto Police Department told reporters, quote, "The investigation is very active." But they said it was by no means in the final stages. Okay. I don't know what that means. Whether or not the case was truly very active is unknown, but if it was, it wouldn't stay that way for much longer.

As the months the one on the case went completely cold. It remained an active case in the technical sense, at least one investigator assigned to it. But it was for all intents and purposes regarded largely as pretty inactive. Now it turned out that the 2020 statement from the Toronto Police indicating the case was still active was to be the last the agency would make for some time. And in the absence of official statements from investigators, theories from the public just continued to find a job.

Now, there had always been theories around the murders being linked to financial problems at Apatex, which were strengthened by the release of previously sealed documents released in 2021.

Among other things, the documents showed that the company was facing a $500 million lawsuit and had very recently laid off several employees as a result of financial downturn. Now, according to an executive at Apatex, the company's financial trouble wasn't likely to have anything to do with the murders. They said very would not be faced by Apatex's financial situation as Apatex was only one part of Sherman's holdings and they have other money. Okay. By 2025, the remaining detective on the case, Dennis Jim, he's still on it admitted that the investigation had essentially led nowhere.

He said, "I'm playing blind. I don't know where I am on the field. What the fuck?" Although Jim seemed willing to admit a lack of progress on the case after eight years, he remained as silent on details as the police force had ever been. When asked whether he could elaborate on rumors that they had a "person of interest" in the murders, he said, "I can't comment on that." So that's a yes. The absence of statements and information from investigators allowed obviously for conspiracy theories and speculation around the case to flourish.

Oh, yeah. At the same time, reports like Kevin Donovan, who had covered the case since the beginning, have done their best to fill in the gaps in the timeline. Often to the frustration and annoyance of investigators also. Because they're trying to keep everybody quiet. Yeah.

For instance, during his investigation, Kevin Donovan, Donovan discovered evidence that Honey Sherman had tried to call 911 during the attack. Oh, fuck. But they're called failed to go through. So her phone being faced down on the bathroom floor or a phone being faced down on the floor.

That was probably hers. Oh, that's awful. So she might have been like attacked in the bathroom and that was upstairs.

So what makes me, it's like they obviously came in the house and I think they surprised them.

Yeah. Ambush them. Yeah. Now, according to Donovan, police won't answer questions about this. But documents confirmed police did conduct tests of the 911 service in relation to the Sherman investigation.

That's giving a scar peddle. Yeah, it is. Now, detective Janet Dennis, EM is confident the case will be solved. He said, I believe we have knowledge to solve this case.

“That's what he told the reporter in late 2025.”

Almost 10 years, brother. Unfortunately for the time being how and when that day will come is anyone's guess. That's the last week. That's it. That's it.

We have no fucking clue what happened. Why? We have no fucking clue what happened. Figured you're just going to leave me there. I'm so sorry. But that shit.

It's too bizarre to not talk about. And I'm maybe they will solve this someday and we can do an updated thing.

But like, for him to say he's confident, I, I, I feel they don't always say that.

I'm just like, what? Yeah. Like, what? I have so, I have so many questions. Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. I think the family, the Sherman family has offered like a pretty substantial reward at one point for information. But yeah, it's, it's really wild. Yeah.

And I think, yeah, there's like, they're still looking into security cameras. They're still looking into the neighborhood security cameras. I believe they say to other people of cameras. I don't think they found anything like compelling to wild. And I'm like, no, do they find anything on the body?

Is there like, on their clothes? It was super clean.

“And that's why they think it was like a professional job.”

Well, not only that. It also makes you wonder, like, sure, it could be professional. And like, it makes sense with all the money and all the, like, spooky stuff tied to it. But that makes you wonder, did somebody know that this cleaning schedule? Did they know that the cleaning people were going to be coming the very next day?

That's, that's what I wonder. Like, if they had been watching, they figured out the routine. Yeah. They knew they would come and, and they put them. They put Barry and honey in a place in the house that would take a while.

Because it's in the basement. Yeah. It's in a place that, like, she said, you had to press the button to get into it. How to secure. They had, like, a safety door.

So it's somewhere where people wouldn't just normally go to first.

Well, and it's literally, they wouldn't be found for a while. Right. So it's like, the cleaners start at the top. And they go to the bottom. And I think that's generally, it makes sense that a cleaner would go from top to bottom.

Because otherwise you're going to trapeze through the whole house again. Like backwards. Like, so they put them on the bottom floor. Yeah.

“Because they knew eventually after cleaning any evidence out of the house.”

Yeah. That they would eventually find them. But by that time. I'm not going to point you cleaned everything up. That feels, I feel wonder about that.

Like, it's part of it. It definitely. Yes. To me, at least. But then, but this it goes so deep with all the possible enemies and all the financial ties.

And, you know, unfortunately, like criminal ties that that might not even have anything to do with it. Yeah. I can understand why this would be like a super frustrating case to investigate. Because they're just that, like you said, that the different ties in the business world. Because it's so many different business.

It's so varied. That's the thing. It's so varied that it would just be impossible. You know what, though? Like, we do have a way of covering a case.

And then it gets like this weird phenomenon. So maybe the universe is just like, I don't know, figure it out. Yeah. I hope so. Wow.

Well, let me get you a fun fact. Yeah. Wow. This is cool. Sleep researchers calculate that humans spend about two hours dreaming every night, which adds up to five to seven years on over an average human lifespan.

Damn. So you dream for six years of your life. Wow. And that kind of cool. That is crazy.

Beautiful. I love that. Hope you're not having nightmares, though. I love that a lot. Imagine if you have just like, a lot of nightmares.

That would suck. And you just do that for like six years. Yeah. That would really suck. That's not fun.

So like, have good dreams. Okay. Yeah. Have good dreams. Please.

Sweet dreams, y'all. All right. Well, with that being said, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. That's the one that you have nightmares for six years, because that would be brutal.

And that's the one that this case doesn't get solved, because I have a lot of questions that I would like answers, please. Yeah. What the actual fuck. [music playing]

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