Inside WPATH's Private Forum: Trans Regret, Damage Control & Denial

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Whether you need peace, encouragement, or a fresh start, Pray.com helps you make prayer part of your everyday life. I am on the app, for all of you, for all of you. My guest today is a daily wire investigative reporter, Megan Brock, who this week published a incredible three-part exposé on probably the most radical pro-transgender group operating

at all. But certainly the most radical pro-transgender group operating in the medical field. This is something that we've covered before, and then Megan has covered extensively. As we will get into this story has even more of an interesting twist based on what Megan

uncovered and how she did it, so Megan, thank you so much for joining me, always a pleasure

to have you. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. So let's just start for those of our listeners who have not, and I would encourage everyone before we even start to go read these three pieces, they're all available on dailywire.com right now, as well as many stories that Megan's written for us for previous outlets in

the past.

“But for right now, quick refresher for those of us who don't remember, who is this group?”

What is this group that you're writing about? Yeah, so WPAD is a role professional association of Transgender Health, and their group has been around for a long time.

They're actually first organized in 1979 under a different name, but they really are the

bedrock of the entire transgender movement. They publish something called the Standards of Care, which they currently have the Standards of Care version eight. There's been various iterations of this, and this is medical guidance that really guides the medical community, it guides legislators around the country, around the world, and it

also guides insurers who are deciding which procedures are considered medically necessary and therefore covered to implement policies that are pro so-called gender affirming care. So really, if you think about the Linchpin and the entire surge of medical transgender procedures, WPAD really is the bedrock of all of that.

“Yeah, so I think it's not an exaggeration to say that this, as you said, I mean, this”

they've been pushing this since the 70s, which is crazy, but this is also broadly speaking, and maybe not even that broadly speaking, this is the group that when people want to point to something that says sex change surgeries or cross-gender hormones or puberty blockers are not only safe and effective, no downside, but also good and necessary. Like this is the group, and all eventually comes back to WPAD.

These are the doctors that are going out, making these statements, this is who law makers are citing, this is who blue state governors are citing, basically their whole position is not, there's no downside to transgender procedures broadly, which is what makes your most recent investigation so shocking, because behind closed doors, the group's members are singing a little bit of a different tune, so tell us about again, what this story is and

how you got your hands on this information. Yeah, so one of the benefits of being a WPAD member is that you get access to their member for them, if your listeners have been following the transgender movement, they may have heard the WPAD files, which were a series of messages that were from this private forum that were obtained by a group who published this information that was very cutting-edge

when it was came out, so I do a lot of FOIA requests, I was foying someone in the Washington Department of Corrections and realized that they were getting emails from WPAD to their government email, and I also knew that the Washington Department of Corrections for some of their staff positions requires their staff to be WPAD certified, so I thought, I wonder if they are getting any of these forum messages, and so I submitted a follow-up FOIA and

sure enough I got almost 250 pages of this member forum where WPAD members discuss all kinds of issues from corrections to detrositioning protocols to some of the absolute horrific side of normal, normal complications, regular complications may be the better way to say it

the curtain of what members are concerned about and what they're talking about that maybe isn't publicly discussed. Yeah, so two quick notes that I want to make before we dive into the stories FOIA, you just mentioned that's the freedom of information act, you're referring to freedom of information act requests, which is when journalists can submit often kind of complicated and bureaucratically

involved forms, saying, you know, to governments or public departments or officials, you know, I want to see this publicly available information, this is you do this a lot,

“I think we've discussed this on the podcast before, it could take a long time, right?”

I mean, how long did it take you to get these stuff back after you filed the requests? You know, I have a bunch of different requests that I've filled out to the Washington Department of Corrections and they just sent me like, they sent me an update email every two weeks on the various requests, some of them are like over a year old and they're still working on them, so it really depends on the state, but this one is just everyone's in a

while getting in box saying, hey, you have some more records to look at and I'm like, great, you know, but. So it can take years and again, I just, it's stress because this is such a, this, I think really highlights kind of the, the kind of work that you do right in the, the, the thinking that goes into these investigative pieces because you would not have been able to, you

can't FOIA a private message group, like you can't, that's not a thing. So thinking through, okay, hold on, Washington state, the Department of Corrections is involved, so maybe that like, this is just even getting there, even getting to the point

“where you thought to file this FOIA, you have to be so deep in the world, both of the”

transgender medicine, but also like deep into investigative journalism, so just, I, I just, I have to shout that out because it is really like that alone is such an accomplishment and we haven't even talked about what you've uncovered. Yeah, I don't know what I read the messages and I write articles about vaginal plastic. I'm like, is it, is it, though?

Is it? No. Someone's got to do it.

Well, let's, let's start there in my personal ranking, I think this is the, the second most

shocking, it's really hard to rank of the three pieces, so let's talk about the, the, the first piece in your series, which was members discussing side effects, talked to us about that. Yeah, so this was a series of messages about vaginal plastic surgery, which if you have young ones, cover the ears, but it's basically a procedure where a male's genitalia is

removed and then a surgeon tries to create a fake vaginal canal, a fake vagina for a man using that tissue, so obviously that's a very complex and difficult procedure and when a patient undergoes that procedure, they have to dilate this fake canal for the rest of their life or it will harden because it's a wound. So you think about any kind of scar tissue naturally is going to harden.

And so I found a series of email or series of messages, sorry, where the members were discussing that some of the patients were undergoing this huge procedure and then they weren't keeping up with the dilation, due to the painful complications, you can have bleeding, you can have all kinds of things and one of the most shocking messages I got was actually from the past president of WPAT, so someone who's very significant in the transgender movement.

I'm going to read the, the, the, the real, the craziest quote because right, they, they discuss this, they acknowledge all of these problems, which they do not acknowledge publicly.

“I think, you know, aside from I'm sure that somewhere on the website or in reports, there's”

some kind of standard disclaimer that says, you know, all surgeries have carry the risk of side effects. I'm sure that WPAT has, you know, covered the rasses effectively legally. But publicly, right, the preponderance of statements that they're saying is, you know, there's nothing wrong.

There's nothing wrong. So this is what their members are discussing internally and then, uh, one of the members, I believe this was the past president said, just because someone does not wish to maintain their, their vagina because of pain and discharge, jumping to regret should

not be our first response.

I don't even know how to fall out of time to be honest, I, there's not, I mean, there's not like, it's truly one of the craziest, like, hey, guys, we're mutilating people's bodies so much, so that it is causing a lot of them to want to stop doing the very invasive and expensive and life-altering thing that they asked us to do. But none of that means that we should stop doing this.

I mean, the lack, I don't know if it's a lack of reflection, or just they are so deeply committed to this, but that is a shocking statement. And again, this is from, I mean, I think your reaction there is perfect. You're not shocked by a lot of this, as both, I'm, I'm, I'm a nurse, as a medical professional, and someone who has been exposing these people for years now, there's not much of this

that shocks you.

Offends you, upsets you, angers you, perhaps, but that's maybe the first time I've ever

I mean, look, a lot of this is me in my office by myself, and I get these things, and

I don't even have anyone to talk to about it. I mean, it's just, I'm a woman, and I will just say, on behalf of women, we, we thankfully do not have to maintain of a vagina. That's not something that someone actually has to do if they're an actual woman.

“So I think just that phrase alone really tells you the truth, and that's that there”

are men and they're women. And I think what's so sad, I mean, as a nurse, and as someone who's spoken with surgeons, who's worked with post-op patients for very complicated procedures, whenever you have a procedure, the goal is to restore function. That's the whole thing.

I'll also say by, another part of my background is I've volunteered for almost two years on a hospital ship in West Africa, working with people who had no access to surgery, provide them basic surgery, like clef pallets, different kinds of really, really basic care that we take for granted in the US. And so I think about a surgeon, is a highly skilled person, someone who's going to school

for a long time, and someone that we don't really have a lot of in the world, like there's a limited number of surgeons in the world, and that they're using this amazing skill and talent they have to take away the function of adults and young adults and even minors. And they really have this amazing opportunity to be building up bodies, and that's really the whole purpose of health care and of surgery.

Yeah, that's, I mean, first do no harm, right?

“That's a great way of putting it, and I think, yeah, the scarcity of, that's, I've never”

really thought about it that way, but yeah, what are you thinking about? It's like, it's what people on the left would call a first-world problem, or an example of privilege, where they not so captive by this other part.

Yeah, we hate to use the word privilege, but I mean, you know, I never have to worry about

my kids like losing function from their arm because they broke it. And there are people in the world who still have to worry about that. So I think when you even, there's so many layers to this, I mean, in the piece that I never going to bring up, but I discuss the federal trade commission filed a lawsuit against WPath and June, and they really went into detail discussing just how awful these procedures

are, and also emphasize that these procedures are being sold specifically to children, male children who are maybe 17, under 18, you know, they use the example of 17-year-old, so that they have the parental support to maintain the brutal dilation schedule. Like, and I referenced to another series that I had done on WPath, which is, again, one of the top-shocking things I heard was I obtained videos from a 2022 scientific symposium,

and one of the doctors was discussing puberty blockers, and he said, we really need to be careful of the timing because when we block a male's puberty, we're blocking the growth of the future vagina, meaning that when you stop at 11-year-old boys, genitalia from developing, it doesn't develop enough skin, and so that makes it difficult then to do these vaginal plastic surgeries, which was also referenced in another email in the piece.

So I mean, it really is just the whole thing. It's why all of it matters. It's why stopping is from happening to young children matters. It's just very traumatic to even read about, but then you think about all these poor people and poor kids who then become young adults who regret what they've done, which is the subject

of the second piece. That's, yeah, well, that's maybe the stopping the growth of the future genitalia is maybe the worst thing that I've ever heard. So thank you for that. I'm sorry to myself.

No, it's not. It's like a provenous of doom here. I'm so sorry. It's important. But it's horrible, but this is why this is important to work.

But okay, so this is a great segue to the second piece in the series, which at least for right now for my money was the most shocking or offensive to my sensibilities. Because in this piece, we see WPath members talking to each other about detransitioners. So detransitioners right are for those who don't know, this is the term as it sounds, given to people who, and actually, you can probably correct me on this.

Is it, does it only apply to people who stop at some point and reverse or can there be

“people, does, do we use the term to apply to even people who had a full sex change?”

But then want to come back as best as possible, like is there a cut off? I mean, I, I think it would be anyone who realized that that, wow, you can't change your sex. And I want to align myself with my true sex as much as as possible.

So detransitioners, folks like Chloe Cole, who's been an incredible advocate for this,

and the whole concept of detransitioning has become affiliated with the right more broadly, which is not because it's a political thing, but it's because outlets like the Daily Wire, people like you, like our colleague Mary Margaret Olahan, who was written a book called Detrans where she interviewed detransitioners, conservative outlets and conservative politicians

who has supported these things wants to then admit that people have regret. WPATH also does not want to admit this, but there are, there are members discuss this. So tell us a little bit about, let's talk about this story. Yeah, so I mean, two of the threads, again, in this email forum, were specifically about

“WPATH members who were, I think they're a doctor and a physician's assistant, asking”

for help to meet the physical needs of patients who were wanting to detransition.

And when I first read this, even you brought up Chloe Cole, here in Chloe Cole, as testimony

in September of 2022, is what brought me into this whole issue, because I remember hearing that and thinking, oh my gosh, as an adult, as someone who cares about children, as someone who is a pediatric nurse, I couldn't believe that children were having their breast cut off by the medical profession. And I remember crying, and to be honest, when I got these emails, it like made me

want to cry, because one of them is a story of a young woman who has already had her breast removed, her uterus removed, and her ovaries removed. And now she wants to return back to being a woman, and the WPATH members asking, like, how do I get her estrogen? Because if you don't have ovaries, you can't have estrogen.

And so these patients are put into a surgically induced early menopause in their 20s, and that's something that Dr. Kerpicelli gave me some information on, he's from Duno Harm. But you really are creating chronic medical patients by giving young people these procedures. I mean, everything else aside, your body has certain needs, and it is just so heartbreaking to read that this is going on.

And a lot of the, I mean, to be, it was interesting to me that there were quite a few members chiming in that we really need, teachers and protocols, we need to, teachers and

“groups, but I think what still stands me is the lack of just thinking with weight, maybe”

we need to stop doing this, because even if one patient is harmed in this way, that's one too many, you know? Right.

Well, but the other, I want to come back to that in a second, but the other shocking thing,

right, is that the responses that they're getting in these boards, it's, it's all these people saying, hey, how do you get this young woman estrogen? How do we do this? We need detransition of protocols, and so many of the responses are people saying, this is just a tragic anomaly, or again, much like just because the patient is in pain and

regrets it does not mean that we should stop doing this, right? People start pivoting, right, in that you can, again, read the piece of people saying, well, I really think this just shows that we need to be there and counsel them through the confusion, or tell them that it's just the hormones making them feel this way, or make sure that they're prepared for the changes beforehand, like some of these folks are not even acknowledging,

“they're trying to just say, well, you know, they're basically blaming the patient, right?”

They're basically saying, well, maybe they weren't mentally strong enough to undergo this, but that's not our fault. One, of course, it's entirely, their fault. And the other thing is to your point, right, it would be to go back to what you were saying about, you know, what medicine is for and what surgery is for.

This attitude would make sense if it was an experimental cancer treatment for, you know, pediatric cancer or any kind of cancer. Well, there's a 50/50 shot, it could either, it could either kill the patient or leave them maimed or it could save their life, but if we don't give them this six months or now, they're dead anyway, it is worth the risk, right?

In those moments, these are tough decisions that doctors and families and patients have to make, but this is, we've all, this is a reasonable calculus because it's giving people the chance that a better life. These people do not even, they're applying that logic to harming people, to actively ruining people's lives.

Right. Well, I mean, the thing that's different is in the case is you're discussing, you're

taking patients who have a really critical medical physical need, where their bodies, like,

I can give my family my dad, had five cardiac bypass surgeries, which is a very risky procedure, but if he didn't have that procedure, he was going to die, because heart was going to stop working and he was going to die, so the calculus, the risk benefit, is pretty easy. It's like, well, yep, this is risky, but the benefits are overwhelming, so you're going to do this with these sex chain surgeries, I mean, it's a mental diagnosis, it's not

a physical problem. You're taking people who have young, young people, young adults, teens, adolescents who have physical working bodies, but they have a mental problem where they're disassociating from their body. Like, essentially, you know, I believe in a wholly integrated, that you're fully female

or fully male, and so disassociation is a mental disorder where someone believes they have multiple personalities, right? So essentially, and I had an injured, wrote an article about a de-transition who discussed it this way.

really what it is. So you have someone who's disassociating from their body, and this is a mental problem,

and we're telling them, well, the answer is to cause physical harm to your body.

And take on these procedures that are so high risk, I mean, the other, the, you know, kind of getting to the angle, the vaginal plastic as a falloplasty surgery, that's for women. And they can cause serious damage to the kidneys, and one of the problems with those is you can get your ritual stenosis, which can put pressure on your kidneys, if you don't have

kidneys, you die. Do you know what I mean?

“Like, we're not talking about like small things, like you have to have at least one”

working kidney, or you're going to be on dialysis, or you're going to be dead. So I mean, the seriousness of the complications really can't be overstated, and this is not to correct a problem. This is creating problems.

Well, this then brings us to the third, and final, well, I'll say the third and final piece

for now. I, we can give, I think we can give everyone a little, a little sneak peek. We have at least, I think, one more, one more piece from this coming out at some point from this current batch of foyers, and also, as you sort of mentioned, you have still tons of foyer requests, and this is, of course, an ongoing issue in this group, and other groups

like it, is something that we're going to stay on. So not the final piece that we will expect on WPAT, or trans radicals from you certainly, but the final piece of this installment series, which is, again, relatively the least shocking of the three, only because it's something that has been documented in the past, which is blue states trying to put biological men who identify as transgender women in

female prisons. This is a horrifying thing that our outlet and others have reported on, but here we get to see the W, again, the WPAT members, and what are they saying to each other behind closed doors about this phenomenon?

Yeah, I mean, there was basically saying we need to, to, I'm paraphrasing here, but we

need to reeducate female, quote, unquote, cis females, which would mean actual female inmates to accept and embrace men as women, which is horrifying, I mean, so many of these women who are incarcerated are victims of sexual abuse, or have sexual trauma in their history, and now they're being told that they have to share a cell with a giant man who everyone knows is a man, and then on top of it, they're basically being chided as, you

know, they're not, they're not cooperating if they're not accepting these men as women. So when these messages, the WPAT members were prioritizing the feelings of men rather than

“the physical safety of women, and I think what's going on in prisons is shocking,”

and it really to me really shows how gender ideology, in my opinion, is in a culture or issue. It's a word to redefine reality, which then impacts every element of culture. Because once you change that, whether it's prisons, it's medicine, it's education. You find me anything, and I'll show you how gender ideology is really burping that.

I want to read this quote in full from your piece, because it really is striking as this Michelle Webb, who is the, this is a ridiculous title, a gender affirming program administrator for the Washington State Department of Corrections. Here's her response to female prisoners who have the audacity to not want to share cells with, as you said, massive men who, also we can't stress enough, criminals, right?

Criminal men, like men who have already done crime, many who have crimes specifically against women. That's women, right? She says, "The cis female population should have open and frank discussions with train staff, with community experts, to understand why they, the transgender inmates, want

to be in an affirmative environment. They are not trying to take resources, they are not getting more than, in quotes, cis females. They are just looking to live their authentic lives and have equity." And quote, "I mean, there's a lot in that. The two things that strike me, one, is, again, the sort of the way that these W-Path

members shift to the argument, right? Like, that's a dishonest reading. No, I don't think no one, maybe sure, someone is saying, "Oh, you know, they get special accommodation. Whatever."

But the main argument against allowing men to be in women's prisons is not that female inmates are saying, "Oh, they're getting more resources, these women fear for their safety." And for their lives. So that's first of all, just the dishonest characterization. So then also, this woman works for the Department of Corrections, and this is, she thinks

the prisoners should be having discussions about gender equity and transgender theory. Like, people don't want to do that outside of jail. That's not what, like, this is, she just so fundamentally misunderstands the point of what her job is. It's shocking.

Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of emails from the Department of Corrections, and at some point, I will get to writing about them because they're the policies that are being pushed,

“they really do really are shocking, and I think that you have some of the most vulnerable”

people in society, which are our prisoners, and that they have rights to, you know, no one

more inhumane than sticking a large biological male who has a history of violence against

women into a potentially into a prison cell with a woman who's probably been, who has a good chance of having experienced sexual assault, it's terrible.

“And I think, you know, saying, you mentioned the most vulnerable, and that's really what”

is so striking about all of this, is that this, this would be a policy issue and a societal issue regardless, but so often we're not talking about, you know, what, what advocates like to say, oh, these are consenting adults, we're not talking about consenting adults, we're not talking about people who, you know, fully, coagently opted into this, we're talking about young people, we're talking about prisoners, and again, in the case of prisoners

to, right, we're talking, we're talking about this being, voiced it on people who didn't choose it. But right, the female inmates in question should not have to do, they, they did not, it's not their problem that this person chose to identify as something else, and then the government decided at that counts, right?

Children who are confused or undergoing mental issues, they deserve counseling and, and help, they shouldn't, then we have, you know, doctors tell them, you should just go have these irrevocable surgeries, it's, it's this, it's this fixation and this focus on the most vulnerable, and on kind of like insisting, no, that's where we have to do it, that

“is I think what's one of the more shocking things about this?”

Yeah, no, it's 100% I mean, I think foster care, I've been a lot of reporting on foster care, it's another place, I mean, who's more vulnerable than a child and foster care, right? But you're, you're, you're spot on, it is really the most vulnerable continued to be preyed upon and get very hurt. I guess in in closing, because again, this is certainly not the end of not the last conversation

we'll have about this, but we can leave it here, but my question is just, what is the future for WPATH and what should, what should people who want to fight this be doing? Because it's, you know, it's one thing when we talk about government policies, right? If like, if you don't like what the Washington Department of Corrections is doing, you can vote in, you know, vote in people who will oppose it, right?

If you didn't like the way the Biden-Harrison administration was going to end another phenomenal series that you've done, you know, people voted for Donald Trump because they didn't want to see what President Kamala Harris would have done to this, but this is a private group, as we discussed at the beginning of the episode, but a very influential group. So what is, to people who want to curb their influence, what could come next, or is this

“just something that we have to, again, continue to watch and live with?”

Yeah, well, I mean, the FTC has a lawsuit filed against WPATH, so we'll see, they're, unfortunately, I don't think there's been too much success with the DOJ has been a whole rush of subpoenas. I mean, to the normal person, I would say, don't accept it in your community, right? Because WPATH is very likely influencing your school, your school board policies, your PD-trition's office. I mean, I always tell people, you want to do something, when you go to the PD-trition's

office and they ask you to, they have a survey and they ask you if your kids is these or, like, send them a feedback and say, "I don't want to see this. I don't want to see this. I'm tired of looking at this. There are two sexes. You know, people pay attention to that." So, I mean, it is very hard in medicine because I think ultimately what we're really tip-to-scales is when enough medical professionals say we're not doing this anymore, but how you reach

that critical mass is, I'm million dollar question that, unfortunately, is out of my,

more or less above my pay grade, I just think that the more people that we, I mean, I would say my own story, I'm just a mom, like who heard Chloe Coltock and was like, "I got to do something about this because this is so wrong." And so I think anyone, if you really want to, can figure out a way to help fight this and protect our kids and also protect generations of kids. I mean, to me, this is a generational issue that if we don't stop this now, then our daughters,

our granddaughters are going to live a life where men can become women and that's going to cause all kinds of harm. Megan Brock is an investigative reporter at the Daily Wire heard three-part series on the WPATH and the, the conversations WPATH members have behind closed doors.

It's available now at DailyWire.com. Megan, thank you as always for taking us behind the story.

Yep, thank you.