A House Divided (PODCAST EXCLUSIVE EPISODE)

But instead of the familiar voice he expected, all he heard on the other end was static and muffled voices somewhere in the background. Put his phone on speaker mode so his wife could listen and the two of them listen closely to figure out who's calling me what is this. And as they listened, they were able to barely make out a conversation happening between two women who they didn't know.

“And these two women were clearly talking about a murder. And one of the women said they needed to come up with an alibi.”

But before we get into today's story, if you're a fan of the strange dark and mysterious delivered in story format, then you've come to the right place because that's all we do, and we upload two, three, even four times every week. So if that's an interest to you, in the dead of winter, sneak into the fall of buttons house and cut off all the sleeves to their coats and jackets. Also, please subscribe to our channel and turn on all notifications so you don't miss any of our weekly uploads. Okay, let's get into today's story.

[Music] On the afternoon of Friday, February 7th, 2003, a 52 year old woman named Monique Lijoon, cleared the table after lunch at her house in Kolunia, France. Her husband, Claude, and two of her adult sons, Frank and Baskal, were at the table.

“And while Monique cleaned up, the men talked over what they needed to pack for the overnight trip they were about to take.”

They were heading to a family gathering near Paris, about three and a half hours away, to celebrate Claude's sister-in-law's retirement. Monique was not going to go, and she had told her family, it was because somebody had to stay home with their four dogs. And that was true, but there also was another real reason why Monique did not want to be there. And it was because she just didn't get along very well with Claude's family. So Monique and Claude had gotten married almost 20 years earlier, but at the time they both already had multiple kids from previous marriages.

Monique had three boys and Claude had five girls. And for a while, the two halves of the blended family had gotten along quite well. But over time, there were some personality clashes between Monique and her five step daughters.

“When Monique and Claude got married, all five girls were at least teenagers if not in their 20s.”

And so while they sort of accepted Monique as being part of their lives, they just couldn't view her as an actual motherly figure. You know, they were already close with their actual mother, Claude's ex-wife Beatrice. And so that was their mother and Monique was like the add-on. Then in 1993, one of Claude's grandsons, so one of his daughters, children, had accused Monique's eldest son, Jean Luke, of sexually abusing him. And that had completely ripped the family apart.

Now this was never reported to the police, so there was no actual investigation into whether this really happened or not.

But Claude's five daughters and Claude's ex-wife Beatrice had fully believed the grandson. And Monique had defended her son, Jean Luke, and Claude was kind of stuck in the middle of it. And it had gotten so ugly that the two sides of the family had just stopped talking to each other for a whole year. And so now the whole family was basically back on speaking terms as they were getting ready for this retirement party. But it was still extremely uncomfortable and tense. And so that is why Monique was not going to go and also why her son, Jean Luke, was not going to go as well.

Finally, around 3pm, as Claude and the two sons wheeled their suitcases out to the car.

Monique went to the front door and she said goodbye to them and then watched as they hopped in the car and drove off. A few hours later around 630pm, Monique heard a knock on the front door and when she opened it, it was her son Jean Luke. And he was standing there holding up his bicycle. He told his mom he was just stopping by on his way home from work. And she said, "Great, come on in." And so Jean Luke left his bike outside and he walked in and as he was taking off his coat, he mentioned to his mother that her neighbor across the street,

whose name was Henri, had clearly been watching Jean Luke when he rolled up, like he was basically spying on him.

And Monique actually kind of was spooked by that, because Henri was a bit of a loose cannon. For example, any time anybody parked their car in front of Henri's house, he would shamelessly vandalize their vehicle by slashing their tires or pouring oil all over their car. I mean, the guy just didn't care. In fact, over the years there had been several heated arguments between Monique and her sons and Henri about parking.

But since Jean Luke had shown up tonight, without a car, you know, he wrote his bike here, Monique just hoped that, you know, whatever issues Henri had, that it wouldn't go anywhere.

“Because there's no car in front of his property, like we didn't do anything, leave us alone.”

Monique led her son into the kitchen, where she poured two glasses of sparkling wine, and then the two just sat there and chatted for about half an hour, and then Monique gave her son a haircut, and then around 705 Jean Luke said goodbye to his mom, he went outside, hopped on his bike, which had not had its tires slashed by Henri, and he left to go to his apartment with his wife to have dinner. After Jean Luke was gone, Monique just sort of went about her evening. She curled the dogs behind a baby gate at the base of the stairs,

and then fed them, and then she went into the kitchen and began cooking dinner for herself. But then, a little while later, at around 730 pm, Monique heard another knock on the door,

“and she knew it very likely was not her son, and so as she walked down the hallway to answer it, she just hoped it wasn't Henri.”

The following morning, the woman who lived next door to Monique woke up feeling pretty tired. She hadn't slept well because someone's dogs in the neighborhood had been barking all night. She got out of bed and walked over to the window and opened up the blinds, and as her eyes adjusted to the light that was flooding in,

she looked down from her second floor window into the yard of the two-story white house that was next door, Monique's house.

And the neighbor saw there was something dark in the middle of the walkway that led to the front door of Monique's house. And so the neighbor, she put her face right up to the window, and she squinted to get a better look.

“And she realized what she was seeing was a body lying face down on the pavement.”

And so in a panic, this woman ran out of a room, grabbed the phone, and called the police. A couple hours later, Judiciary Police Captain and Prem pulled up in front of a white two-story house with crime scene tape and a medical examiner's fan right out front. As Prem got out of her car, a police officer walked over to her and led her to where the body of a woman was lying out in the front yard. The officer told Prem that the victim, Monique Lijoon, had been discovered exactly like this by her neighbors earlier that morning.

And based on the progression of rigor mortise, the medical examiner estimated that Monique had likely died between 8 p.m. and midnight the night before. Prem bent down to get a better look at the body, but even before getting up close, she knew this woman had sustained just gruesome injuries. There was blood all over Monique's face and her clothes, and her torso appeared completely ripped apart by what appeared to be stab wounds.

Prem guessed just from looking at the scene that this woman must have been murdered and likely was stabbed, you know, just at first glance at at least a dozen times.

Prem also noticed pretty obvious defense wounds all over Monique's hands and forearms, which certainly suggested again that she was murdered and that Monique had put up a pretty good fight against her killer. And so after a few more moments of just kind of looking over the body, Prem stood back up and asked the officer if the neighbors had seen or heard anything unusual the night before. And the officer said no, aside from the fact that Monique's dogs should foredogs had been barking nonstop really the whole night starting at around 8 p.m.

Prem nodded and thanked the officer and then she made her way over to the front door of the house to look to see if there was any signs of forestentry as the door was closed. When she got there, she didn't see any signs, but she did see a bloody handprint on the outside wall near the door. And then when Prem turned the handle of the door and opened it up, she saw this hallway inside that was absolutely covered in blood. And so Prem very carefully stepped inside trying to avoid stepping in the blood or tracking any prints anywhere, and she began walking down the hallway very carefully and looking in other rooms.

And she saw that for the most part, the blood spatter was pretty well contained in the entryway, which told her that the attack on Monique likely began and ended in the entryway. And so her running theory was okay, Monique must have had someone come to the door, you know, they knocked or whatever, and then Monique opened the door and was attacked immediately. But then, as Prem stepped back outside, she looked down at the front walkway and noticed something kind of unusual. Despite all the blood right inside the front door, there was no blood at all on the walkway between the door and the spot where Monique's body was found.

From the amount of blood that the victim had clearly lost inside the house, Prem doubted that she would have been capable of running out into the yard after the attack. So she had to wonder if maybe the body had been moved post-mortem, and Monique was a large woman. So if her killer had been able to overpower her one and then also move her body such a far distance after she was dead, Prem assumed that whoever her killer was was likely pretty strong.

However, what Prem didn't understand was why would the killer want to drag a corpse out into the yard where the neighbors could see them?

“Unless for some reason, they wanted Monique to be found as soon as possible.”

And since at least at this point, it appeared like Monique likely had gone to the front door and opened the door for her killer. Prem thought that the killer must be someone that she knew. Around noon on that same day, so February 8th, 2003. Police captain Anne Prem was about to go next door and speak to one of Monique's neighbors herself. When suddenly a car pulled up at the curb, then three men climbed out looking completely shocked and very concerned. By this point, Prem had learned from the neighbors that Monique had a husband and also adult sons.

And so, Prem assumed that these men must be them. So right away, Prem hurried down the walkway to cut the men off to keep them from entering the crime scene. And the three men, they just began crowding around her, asking her like, "What's going on? Where's Monique? What's happened?"

And she told them that unfortunately Monique had been stabbed to death, and at first, all three of them just went completely silent.

And then one of them, one of the sons, just began to cry. Prem then told them that they couldn't go into the house because it was still an act of crime scene. So instead, she led them over to the curb and they all sat down. Prem could tell the men were in shock, because as much as one man was crying, it just seemed like they couldn't even process what they were told.

“But it was important to find out what Monique's family knew as soon as possible.”

So, Prem pulled out a note pad, and gently asked them about the last time they had seen Monique. The husband, Claude, said that they had all left the house around 3pm the previous afternoon, leaving Monique at home alone. They said they'd gone to a family gathering near Paris that evening and stayed overnight, and they'd only now just gotten back into town, and they'd seen this whole scene out front, the police tape, and police didn't know what was going on. Eventually, Prem asked Claude to tell him all the names of all the people in their family, all their adult children,

you know Claude's ex-wife, Monique's ex-husband, everybody. But as Claude was giving this information, he told her that he just couldn't imagine anybody in the family being involved in this. Prem nodded, but she knew that it was entirely possible that family was involved. I mean, unfortunately, this stuff does happen.

“But she didn't give that off, instead she just said, "Well, can you think of anyone who would want to hurt Monique?"”

And Claude thought about it and just said, "No, she lived a pretty normal and uneventful life." But then, one of the sons piped up and mentioned that actually there might be someone. He said her neighbor, Henri, and he pointed across the street at the house. A minute later, Prem was knocking on the front door of Henri's house. And after a few seconds, a middle-aged man answered the door. And he was very curious about what was going on across the street.

And eventually, Prem told him that while your neighbor Monique has been murdered. And when she said that, Henri smiled. So immediately, alarm bells are going off and Prem's head. She's thinking, "This guy is very suspicious." And she asked him, "Can I come in and look around then?" And Henri didn't even seem surprised by this request. It was like, he already knew he was going to be looked at as a suspect and said, "Sure, come on in."

So he stepped aside and Prem came in and began searching every room in the house. The living room, the kitchen, the upstairs bedrooms. But, despite looking everywhere, she didn't find any traces of blood or really anything else suspicious or unusual. So eventually, Prem made her way back into the living room where Henri was waiting. And she asked him, "Where were you, the previous evening?" And he told her very casually that, "Well, he and his wife were home. They were here."

Prem thought this was a pretty weak alibi, but she made a mental note to follow up with the wife and confirm it later. Next, Prem asked Henri, "If he had seen or heard anything out of the ordinary the night before." And Henri said, "No." Except that maybe around 7pm, he had seen one of Monique's sons leaving her house on his bicycle.

And in this, Prem perked up because the family had told her that Monique had a third adult son named Jean Luke,

who had not gone to that party in Paris. And if Henri was telling the truth, it meant that Jean Luke was very likely the last person to see Monique alive, and maybe he was even the killer. The next morning, Prem led a forensic team up the stairs of a rundown apartment building in a sketchy part of town. She knocked on the door to Jean Luke's apartment, and a moment later, a young man answered.

After confirming that he was Jean Luke, two officers led him away to be questioned back at the station.

And pretty quickly, as Prem was walking around the living room, one of the other officers called her over to look at something,

“and so she walked over to him, and she saw he had his flashlight out and he was pointing it at something on the wall.”

And when she got close enough, she could see that what he was highlighting were what appeared to be tiny drops of blood. And so Prem pulled out her flashlight, and she too began scouring the walls and the floor near the stairs looking for any more blood. And she found a few more red droplets near the door knob to a closet, and so she opened the closet up and inside was a bike. And she shined her flashlight on the bike on the wheels and the frame,

and she saw all these reddish brown splatters all over the underside of it, as if whoever had ridden the spike last had basically drove through a puddle of blood.

And our later, Prem walked into an interrogation room at the police station where Jean Luke was sitting with his head in his hands. He looked up as she entered, and he had this very scared and confused expression on his face. Prem sat down across from him, and right away, asked him what he'd been doing at his mother's house on the night of February 7. Jean Luke said he had just stopped by after work, as he often did, and he only stayed for maybe half an hour before riding his bike back home.

“When Prem asked him, if he had gone straight home afterwards, Jean Luke said, "No, he hadn't."”

He explained that his wife's brother, Christoph Cresier, lived in the same apartment building as they did on the floor right below them. So before going up to his own unit, he said he just stopped by to chat with Christoph for a few minutes.

And then after that, he spent the rest of the night in his own apartment with his wife.

However, to Prem, she felt like there had to be more to this story, because they had found what appeared to be droplets of blood sort of scattered throughout Jean Luke's apartment. And then, you know, there was blood or at least what appeared to be blood on the underside of his bike. And so she figured, you know, maybe if she pushed hard enough, she might be able to get him to change his story. So she told him point blank, they had found blood in his living room, and they were now sending it to the lab for analysis.

And when Jean Luke heard this, his face went bright red, and he began stammering that the blood was very likely from a neighbor who had injured himself while visiting a few days earlier. Prem nodded, but then told him, you know, they'd also found blood sort of all over his bike.

“And Jean Luke, he sort of hesitated and stuttered and stammered, but really couldn't come up with any way to explain that.”

At this point, Prem felt like she had Jean Luke right where she wanted him.

So she just told him to be quiet for a second, and just roll up your sleeves so she could look at his arms.

Prem knew, you know, based on the defensive wounds on Monique's body, that she likely had fought back really hard, she must have left at least a few scrapes or bruises on her killer. However, when Jean Luke finally enrolled up his sleeves, Prem didn't see a single scratch or bruise on his hands or arms. A few minutes later, Prem left the interrogation room and walked to her office. Despite the lack of defensive wounds, Jean Luke was definitely still acting suspicious, and she was not ready to let him go.

But she also didn't want to get tunnel vision and completely ignore any other suspects. In case the blood inside of Jean Luke's apartment, did turn out to just be a big coincidence. So she sat down at her desk, and she opened up a file, and she began flipping through the notes of interviews that her team had already done with the rest of Monique's family and her neighbors. Monique's sons had mentioned in their interviews that there was definitely some tension between Monique and her five stepdaughters.

But, officers had spoken to all the stepdaughters as well as their husbands, and even though some of the women had admitted they still had an issue with Monique. They all had alibi, both the women and their husbands, for the night that Monique was killed. Also, several other family members had mentioned that Claude's ex-wife Beatrice definitely did not get along with Monique. But, officers had tracked down Beatrice and she just didn't seem like a very strong suspect. Beatrice had said,

for the most part, she and Monique, even if they didn't get along, they just stayed out of each other's way, and that they hadn't seen each other in over a month. And also, Beatrice was remarkably tiny and frail. She was barely four foot nine inches tall and 58 years old and just seemed really weak. So, just seemed almost impossible that she could have overpowered the much larger Monique, and inflicted the injuries that were inflicted on her and then dragged her out to the front yard, it just seemed sort of impossible.

And so, even though she wasn't totally ruled out, for the most part she was. Just then, there was a knock on Prem's door, and when she looked up, she saw there was another officer standing there. And he told her there were two people here who wanted to speak to her. Prem nodded, and then a moment later, a very nervous-looking middle-aged man and woman came into the office. They sat down across the desk from Prem, and the man said,

"They had information that could help with the Monique Lesion investigation."

And she began writing, as the man explained that he was a co-worker of Christoph Cresier.

“And Prem immediately recognized that that was the name of Jean-Luc's brother-in-law.”

The one Jean-Luc said he had visited on the night when he was killed. That was the person he saw, apparently right after he left Monique's house. The man sitting across from Prem said that just a few hours ago, he'd gotten a call from Christoph's number. But when he answered it, all he could hear was a sort of muffled conversation between two women.

And at first, this man thought what he was hearing was just an accidental call.

You know, maybe by Christoph's kid, it was just pressing buttons at random. However, the man said when he put his phone on speaker, he and his wife who was the woman he was with. They both started listening really closely, and they were able to make out a snippet of the conversation. The two women on the line were clearly talking about needing an alibi,

“and saying something about a man named Jean-Luc.”

First, the woman had said something like, "It's not Jean-Luc's fault, he's depressed." And then the woman had mentioned something about a pair of pants that needed to be washed. Prem couldn't believe what she was hearing.

I mean, any doubts that she had had about Jean-Luc being the killer pretty much disappeared.

And so she took down the couple's names and contact info, showed them out of her office, and then once they were gone, she grabbed her keys, and she headed out to go to Christoph's apartment. Now, by this point, Christoph had already been taken into custody and questioned, and he had completely denied knowing anything about Monique Smurder or the phone call that was apparently made from his number. But Prem hoped that maybe a search of his apartment would tell a different story.

“She walked through each room of the apartment until she found the washing machine.”

And there, she put on a pair of latex gloves, and she reached inside the washing machine, and she pulled out a pair of pants that were still damp as if they had just been washed earlier that day.

And she held these pants up and kind of put them in the light.

And then she could see clearly there was a brownish stain on them. She also noticed that these pants looked like they'd be way too small for Christoph who was a pretty tall and burly guy, but they definitely looked like they would fit a guy like Jean-Luc who was much smaller. Later that same day, so this is on February 10th, two days after Monique's body was found. Captain Prem was in her office when her phone rang. She answered it.

And it was a technician from the Crime Lab telling her they actually already had the results from the samples that had been sent in for testing. And so Prem, you know, she's geared up, you know, ready to hear some potentially, you know, case breaking news. But the tech told her that the stains that were on the bike, it was blood, but it was animal blood. She went on to say that the other little droplets of blood that were in Jean-Luc's apartment, like on the walls, and near the door handle of the closet,

it was blood, but not a match for Monique's. And then also those pants that had been found that stain on the pants, that wasn't blood at all. That stain was just grease. Prem was very frustrated because in her mind, she had sort of zeroed in on Jean-Luc. It really seemed like he was their guy, but now they really had no physical evidence against him.

And as for that bizarre phone call to Christoph's coworker, they really had no way of knowing who those two women in the background were, or even if the coworker and his wife had actually overheard the conversation correctly, you know, about the alibi and about Jean-Luc being depressed, you know, who knows if they actually heard that. So, Prem thanked the lab technician for calling with the update, you know, despite how disappointing it was, and she was about to hang up when he told her to wait. Because he had one more piece of news for her. He told her that during Monique's autopsy, the medical examiner had actually found DNA under Monique's fingernails,

and it was very likely skin cells from her killer that had been scratched off during the struggle. The technician said it would take at least another few weeks to analyze it. But once the results came back, they could definitely test it against DNA samples from any of their suspects, and maybe it would be a match. This definitely gave Prem some hope. And after she hung up, she began making a list of everyone they would need to get a DNA sample from, so they could test against it. She definitely knew she would need one from Jean-Luc and Christoph, and then also that neighbor on Ree seemed like a strong suspect too.

Prem had actually spoken to On Ree's wife and confirmed that, at least according to her, they were together that whole night Monique was killed. But she also knew that spouses were very likely to lie for each other, so it was a flimsy alibi. So at this point, Prem felt like she definitely had three good potential suspects to get DNA from. But realistically, that was where her list ended.

And by all accounts, Monique lived a pretty quiet suburban life, and just didn't really get into trouble with anyone.

So there really was no one else. And so to Prem, it just felt like something was missing here. Like in the time I have between now and when the analysis is done on that DNA underneath Monique's fingernails, I need to see if there's something I've missed.

“And so over the next few weeks, that's what Prem did. She poured over all the evidence they collected, and she re-interviewed all the family members and spoke to all the neighbors.”

But despite this huge effort, nothing new came up that brought any other suspects into view. However, at the same time, this is early March by this point, maybe three or four weeks after the attack had said they would test the DNA. Prem got another call from the crime lab, and the technicians said that the DNA analysis had come back. And even before they tested it against any specific suspects, the results were already enough to narrow down the field significantly. And when Prem heard what the tech had to say about the analysis so far, she realized that this was, in fact, the missing piece of information that she needed.

Based on this revelatory DNA evidence, and also an eventual confession by the killer, this is what police believe happened to Monique Lijoon on the night of February 7th, 2003. The killer walked up to Monique's front door and knocked, and a few seconds later, the door opened, and Monique was standing there.

“But instead of inviting the killer inside, Monique just kind of crossed her arms and stared.”

At this point, the killer began to speak. However, what was supposed to be a polite conversation quickly escalated into an argument, with both of them hurling insults back and forth. And then at some point, Monique slammed the door in the killer's face, but before she did, she said one last thing that was apparently so inflammatory that it pushed the killer over the edge. And so without even stopping to consider what they were doing, the killer, after having the door slammed in their face and hearing this totally inflammatory line,

they stormed over to their vehicle, which was part nearby, and they grabbed the knife, they kept under their seat for self-defense. And they carried that knife right back to the front door and knocked again. And as soon as the door opened, the killer pushed their way inside, and with a surge of rage, they just started stabbing.

“But Monique was very strong and big, and she knocked the killer to the ground and actually pinned them there,”

but the killer managed to wrestle their arm free that was holding the knife, and they kept stabbing Monique over and over and over again. But Monique, she kept fighting back. I mean, this was an epic struggle.

And also, the whole time this is happening, Monique's four dogs have basically come over to the gate, which butted up against the entryway, and they're watching this happen.

And they're barking like mad, and Monique is screaming out and rage and panic and pain, and the killer is just stabbing and stabbing and stabbing. Until finally, they were able to break away from Monique, who kind of had them pinned, despite, you know, getting stabbed repeatedly. And then, once the killer was free, they turned and bolted out of the house. The killer ran across the yard, gotten their vehicle, began pulling away, and as they did that, they saw Monique stumble out the front door, covered him blood,

she took a few steps down the walkway and collapsed to the ground. But the killer didn't wait around to see if she was really dead, instead they sped away. And then they stopped at a supermarket parking lot, and threw the murder weapon the knife in a trash can, and then the killer went home, and they burned their bloodstained clothes in their stove. They thought that would be enough to destroy any evidence linking them to this crime.

Especially considering the fact that they knew they were like the last person anybody would suspect of such a horrible violent murder. It would turn out the killer was the four-foot nine-inch tall, tiny, frail Beatrice Matisse, Claude's 58-year-old ex-wife.

In her confession to police, she claimed she had gone to Monique's house that night to finally, you know, bury the hatchet after years of feuding between the two sides of Claude's family.

But she said the bad blood ran way too deep, and when Monique apparently insulted Beatrice's daughters, that was the last and flammatory line as she shut the door. Beatrice said she snapped. Beatrice had actually been ruled out as a suspect primarily because she was really, really small, like too small to have overpowered Monique, and then to have potentially moved her body out to the front yard, but it would turn out Monique's body was not moved at all. She stumbled out herself. Monique was apparently so full of adrenaline after getting attacked that she had managed to, you know, chase Beatrice out of the house before she collapsed and died.

And because Monique had fought back so fiercely, she had managed to get traces of Beatrice's DNA under her fingernails.

“And so right away, the DNA analysis showed that their killer was a woman, and further testing eventually confirmed that it was a match for Beatrice.”

Investigators never figured out who made that bizarre phone call to Christophe's co-worker.

But their best guess was that the women that were heard on the phone call were Christophe's mother and sister. And it was just an innocent conversation about Monique's murder that the co-worker Miss Interpreted.

“Beatrice Matisse was arrested on March 29, 2003, and she confessed to the murder immediately.”

Although she later recounted the confession, she was eventually found guilty and sentenced to 15 years in jail.

A quick note about our stories, they are all based on true events. But we sometimes use pseudonyms to protect the people involved, and some details are fictionalized for dramatic purposes. The Mr. Ballem Podcast, strange dark and mysterious stories, is hosted and executive produced by me, Mr. Ballem.

Our head of writing is Evan Allen, our head of production is Zack Levitt, produced by Jeremy Bohn, story editing by Evan Allen,

Research and fact checking by Shelley Shu, Samantha Van Hoos, Evan Beamer, Abigail Shumway, and Camille Callahan. Research and fact checking supervision by Stephenier. Audio editing and post-produced by Whit LaCassio and Cole LaCassio, Perry Crowell and Jordan Stittum. Mixed and mastered by Brendan Kane, production coordination by Samantha Collins, production support by Antonio Minata and Delana Corley. Artwork by Jessica Klugston-Kiner, theme song called Something Wicked by Ross Bugdon.

Thank you for listening to the Mr. Ballem Podcast, and just a reminder, every new and exclusive episode we put out on the Mr. Ballem Podcast, you can also now watch on the Mr. Ballem YouTube channel that very same day. And trust me, some of these stories you truly have to see to believe. Again, my YouTube channel is just called Mr. Ballem.

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or visit SiriusXM.com/podcast+ to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. So, that's going to do it. I really appreciate your support. Until next time, see ya.