550 - Short and Problem-Based

- This is exactly right. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstar.

- That's Karen Gilgare. - And this is a true Grand Podcast. We bring it right to your door for 10 years. - Knock knock. - It's been a decade, bitches.

- Let us in. - Do you have snacks? - Do you have treats for us? - Treats can we have a treat? - It is spooky season coming right up around my corner.

Only two months to go. - What's up, how are you? - I'm good, how are you? - Good. - Is this natural?

- No, I don't remember how. I don't remember what we do. - Next. - We do different stuff every time. - Okay.

- It's usually different.

- I've actually never listened to this podcast.

- It's not good. (laughing) - So I don't know the format. Hey, what's some kind of good news, I guess? On the from the dark side?

- Yes.

“- Okay, so remember a couple episodes ago”

an episode 541 called House or Wife. - Yes. - I remember every moment. I covered the guy who was imprisoned for like 30 years for allegedly starting a flood in Mississippi.

The great Mississippi flood of 1993, his name was James Scott, well he was up for parole and he was granted parole. He was 25 years old, we went to prison and he's been in so long, he's now 56 years old.

- Yeah. - And so he's gonna finally get out. - Wow. - I mean, I wish they would look more into that, the evidence was shit, but that's incredible update.

That's the update we're looking for. - Yeah. - So that's good. - It is good. - Well, this is a little bit an additional update,

not as good as someone finally getting out of jail, but I went again to Sephora. - Congratulations. - Thank you. And I let someone help me.

- Oh. - And it was such a delightful experience. We stood in the hairile laughing and talking about having bobs and-- - Amazing.

- It was so funny and as it was happening, I was like, you are the architect of your own fate. - Yeah. - If you're not gonna talk to people

“or you're like, that's how you always complain.”

- Right. - If you're not going to be in the game,

then you're always gonna be like,

I don't think this game. - Yeah. - But you go and you're actually someone goes, do you need help? And it's like--

- Yeah. - Actually, I do. Can you help? Actually, it wasn't just the women in the hairile because I was looking at a new, very expensive skin tint,

which I do not need. And I was looking at it, I was like, have you tried this, do you like it? She goes, well, give you a little tester. - Basically, I realize people work at Sephora.

- And they actually want to help you. - Yeah, you do want to help really bad. - She didn't say at the end, I'm a listener. - No. - 'Cause I had an experience, you reminded me,

that a couple weeks ago I was in Portland for the weekend, just having a vacade decided to change my flight to earlier in the day. And I couldn't get the website to work on my phone, my wife, I was shitty.

So I had to call a fucking customer service line in the stay-in-age. - How? - I know.

“And I give this woman a nice, normal woman”

at Alaska Airlines, my name, and she goes, she fucking recognized me.

- That was never happened before.

- Yes, in the 10 years where I have like, made hair appointments and made Botox appointments and made doctor, I was just like, assuming at one point, one of those gun girls at those at a med spa was gonna be like, I listen.

- Sure. - Never, has that happened. So when she did that, it said, "Are you from my favorite murder?" I freaked out as much as she was freaking out.

She still charged me the change fee. She was like, "I'm sorry, I wish I could do it." - Wait, but I kicked. - She's like, "Listen." - Yeah.

- So Nancy and Alaska Airlines. - Hey, Alliance. - Hi, that was really exciting. - Nancy, thanks for listening. - This is Nancy, being on the phone with you

is like a podcast kind of, but sure. - Yeah. - And problem-based. - Right, she solved my problem and she was lovely the whole time.

- That's great. - I know, that's really nice. - First time. - That's also very fun. - It was really fun.

- Because doing stuff like that is usually at such a drag. - Right. - Then you're just like, "Nancy." - Nancy, we're already friends.

- I can wait for this for 10 years. - Nancy, this is wonderful. - I mean, I've been recognized at multiple estate sales, but never on the phone. - That's right.

- So it's exciting. - It's a harder, it's like you leveled up. It's a harder thing that you want to totally. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, something that is,

true to my heart, TikTok. - Okay. - A delightful TikTok. I got sent it on TikTok personally. 30 times, my sister showed me when I went home

last weekend. I thought you'd like it, 'cause, yes. - Right up our alley. - Let me see, let me see, let me see. - Okay.

- Here's what you do if you don't want to get murdered. - Oh, I love her. - Then a while since we've done one of these and I just think it's time. - First of all, don't honey moon on a boat.

I'm gonna get to people like to hike, I get that. But if it's like some kind of like, really like risky cliff hillside hike, I don't think you should go.

“I don't care if he's the greatest living human man.”

I don't think you should go. No good jogging late at night. Don't go jogging. No good jogging. Don't be like, oh six to 15 weeks pregnant.

Don't be full-term and meet someone on Facebook. If I was pregnant, I wouldn't even open Facebook. - Absolutely. - Oh, Craigslist, absolutely.

- She basically like summarized

last 10 years this podcast. - I mean in one TikTok. - And then the last 2000 years of women's lives. So that was Jen Kern and hilarious. I've seen her on TikTok several times,

but then Allison looked it up and she actually follows this on Instagram. - Yeah. - So there is a chance she is a listener. - Love her or she's hate following us.

- She might hate all of us. - Either way, we support what she does. Might be rate, rate, fade, page, no. - Bate, rage, bathing. - Wow.

- Perry, Vettepos. - I was cutting my own, right? - It's mosquito brain time. - Wow. - Perfect.

“- I hate what that happened for podcasting.”

- Definitely. - All you have to do is read now. - You know what's fun is trying to find an outfit to wear on Perry, Vettepos. - Oh God.

- Fuck everything. - Truly the other day.

I actually had to call Craig and I was like,

I don't know what happened, but every single item I put on, I had to take back off. - And I was getting increasingly more upset because it's like, it's not gonna get better from here.

- No. I settled on this and had to pull it from under a cat, which I won't disturb a cat who's sleeping. That's how bad it was. You know what I mean?

The fact that I disturbed a cat was probably still cat here on it. Tells you how bad a day I was having, trying to find something to wear. - This was one of the things I was talking to the woman

that's before about. These things that happened premenopause or menopause were suddenly your hair changes. You don't know what your hair's doing anymore. It's falling out or it's getting weirdly curly or wet.

Like, that whole thing, my shoulder hurts. Can I blame? - Now I have knife shoulder. - Tonight is just a fucking thing. - Yeah.

Have you had any hot flashes? - Yes, but the patch has been helping. The estradiol patch has been helping with hot flashes. - Oh, okay. - So those are fine.

- But my vision's fucked up. Like, I mean, it's just, or like, energy, battery on the video game is just dwindling down. - And I needed my uterus.

So you think that it was like not as crazy. And they'll still get you. - That's pretty fucked. - They'll get you on a technicality. - That's what they'll do.

- They really will. - Hey, far you know. - A fuck them, when when we say them, we mean your ovaries. If you're in Perry Menopause or Menopause right to us,

that my favorite murder at gmail.com.

“- Let's play a game of how many eggs do you have left?”

- How many viable eggs do you have left? - And how much are you sweating for no reason? - All right, well, should we get into the podcast? The actual podcast? - We might as well.

- No, I think we should sit here and watch TikTok. - I know you do. - We have a podcast network called exactly right media. There's podcasts on it. Here are some highlights from them.

- This week on Bananas, Curtin Scottier joined by Mo Welch to discuss West Seattle's freelance beaver detective. That's right. A teacher who arranged her classroom by Zodiac signs and a spider-man thief who learned

his tricks working as a power ranger. - Wow. - And over on wicked words, Kate sits down with crime journalist Maria Dilarenzo to discuss her book Confessions of the Green River Killer.

And over on the knife, Hannah tells Pasha about an online knitting community rocked by the sudden and suspicious death of one of its own. But as the community starts piecing together what happened,

the story begins to unravel. - Wow. - That's a play on words because it's a knitting. - I love it. - Okay.

And if you haven't listened to our limited series, Royals Swindily at all the episodes are now available, so you can binge the whole wild story from beginning to end and make sure to like and subscribe, please. And if you're like us and you love Michael Foot

from our legal podcast, Brief Recess, then you will be very excited to hear this news. The TV showed the Trader's new blood premieres two days. - I'm so fucking excited for this.

- September 17th on NBC and it streams tomorrow on peacock. - We're gonna be live posting along with the premier on Threads and Michael will be recapping all of the drama on Brief Recess. - Yeah, you're gonna immediately

gonna get a contestants experience on a podcast. - He's gonna be so good. Like, I was thinking about going up against him on the Trader's, I would quit. - Yeah.

- I'd be like, I can't. - No one cannot smart him. - No one also, but he's so charming. - Yes. - Like, I'm sure he's just charming the hell out of it.

- Totally. - Everybody and they don't ever see anything coming. - Exactly. - He's a worthy adversary. - Yes, he is.

- I'm excited.

- And finally, we would like to thank you, Murdery Nose,

because the fuck politeness and the wheat whistles are officially sold out and we are gonna be donating

- Yay. - Good job, everyone.

- Yes, thank you for that.

- That's so cool. Love doing that in your name.

“So, this is a story that I don't wanna read”

the subject line for you, like the way we do on many sides, 'cause it'll give it away. - Okay. - So I'm just gonna say, this is a story that would have been considered a cold case.

We're not for a father who refused to ever let it go. This is the story of the Murder Up-Colinka Bambersky. - Wow. - Yeah, I wanted to tell you the tag line, 'cause it's just so gripping.

- Okay. - I'm gonna tell you the story instead. - You have to tell me the story before the tag line, okay. - The main sources for this story are a documentary on Netflix called "My Daughters Killer"

and an article in "The Attivist" by Joshua Hammer and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. - So, let's start in July of 1982 and we're in to lose France, to lose France. A pretty big city in the south of the country,

you know, there you go, France, France stuff. Andre Bambersky is a 42-year-old accountant, so such a normal organized dude. Everyone describes him as exceedingly organized and detail-oriented.

He's a person who likes to see tasks through to the end. - Not me, couldn't be me. Can you imagine us as a accountant? - I would crash the stock market. - Bad news about your taxes this year.

Did you wanna pay in Skittles?

“'Cause I'd be, I think you should pay in Skittles.”

- The good news is you don't have to pay them. The bad news is you're supposed to. - I traded all of your money for Skittles in this cow. - You're welcome, yeah. - Let's see what happens and some sea shells,

but they're beautiful. Okay, so Andre is divorced and has two children and an 11-year-old son named Nikola and a 14-year-old daughter named Kalinka. And the children spend the majority of the year living

with their mother in Lindau, Germany, which is a beautiful historic town on the shores of Lake Constance, not far from the Austrian border. I didn't cross the lake from Switzerland.

I knew you were just gonna say that. - I mean, I wanted to say it. - Thank you for not interrupting. - Their mother done yell, but in French, Daniel. - Daniel, Daniel, Daniel.

- Daniel, Daniel, Daniel. Had remarried a German doctor named Dieter Krombach who she had actually had an affair with her new husband when she was still married to Andre. They had a pretty messy divorce over it

and the kids went to live with her and the new husband in Germany. And so as it stands now in 1982, things are pretty amicable.

“The past few years, Andre has only gotten the kids”

for vacations, but Kalinka, originally from France, is feeling isolated in her German school. And so by the end of the summer, she's planning to move back to Toulouse

to live with her father. He's looking forward to that. But this all comes crashing down on the morning of July 10th. When Andre gets a phone call from his ex, Daniel, who is hysterical.

She tells him that Kalinka has died in her sleep, 14 year old Kalinka. And that her husband, Dieter, tried to revive her, but he couldn't. Andre asks what could happen to his vibrant, healthy daughter.

And Daniel says that Dieter's best guess is a heat stroke. That's what he suggested could be. Or possibly undiagnosed complications from a car accident she had years earlier, but they're not sure why

this healthy vibrant, 14 year old girl would have died. So on July 9th, the day before the last day of Kalinka's life, she had gone wind surfing on Lake Constance. It had been around 84 degrees that day and according to her mother and stepfather,

she had been complaining about feeling unwell that evening. She ate dinner at 7.30, went to bed, and then came out of her room at around 10 o'clock for a glass of water and red and bed until midnight. When Dieter says that he told her to turn off the light,

that's his story, basically.

The next morning, Dieter and Kalinka were supposed to go horseback riding together in the mountains. And he says when he tried to wake her up, he found her unresponsive. He had tried to administer several stimulant injections

to revive her, but they hadn't worked. And he's a doctor. Yeah, I was just gonna say, okay. So, you know, him diagnosing her and him giving her injections,

not totally suspicious, right? Right. The immediately upon learning of his daughter's death, Andre Flies still in doubt. And early the next morning, he goes to view his daughter's body

and then brings his son, 11 year old Nikolay, home to Toulouse to prepare for Kalinka's funeral. And here's a photo of Andre holding a photo of Kalinka. So, you can see them. She just, there was this bright, beautiful blonde,

lovely girl, they said she was always smiling.

And he's such a dad. Yeah, okay. All of Andre's friends and neighbors rally around him to support the family during this horrible time

After Kalinka's funeral, Andre still trying to piece together

“what on earth happened, requests the autopsy report”

from the German medical examiner. It takes a while to get a copy and then Andre has to get it translated from German. And so, he actually doesn't read the document until October of 1982, so three months after Kalinka's death.

And it generates far more questions than answers.

The first unusual thing Andre notices about the autopsy

report is that in addition to the medical examiner and two police officers being present, Deeter, the stepfather had also been present during the autopsy. In the report, Andre also finds out that by the time Kalinka's body

had been found a little after 10 a.m., rigor mortists had already set in. And this raises the question of why Deeter had tried to administer any lifesaving injections at all as a doctor.

He would have known they would be ineffective. But Kalinka had actually been brought to the medical examiner with a needle still in her upper arm.

“Like that's how frantic he was trying to revive her, supposedly.”

OK.

Andre reads that one injection had been administered to Kalinka

by Deeter the evening before it had been iron cobalt, which is not really a standard injection for anything aside from severe anemia. And Deeter had said that he gave it to her intending to help her tan.

It was just super fucking, what are you talking about? Yes, immediately. Later when you stopped me cold, it he was in the on totally. I mean, he's a cardiologist. So it's not like he's a pretty high up doctor.

Yes. But right, but it's is stepped out. Yeah, right. No, and it's totally inappropriate. And it doesn't help people tan.

Like I looked it up on Google. It's just not a thing.

“So him saying that that's why he did it.”

Doesn't make any sense. No toxicology tests were performed, though. Although some tissue samples had been taken. Like he's just injecting her with shit. And you don't do a toxicology report.

All I know is that because he's in the room. Right. Exactly. There have been some physical evidence that would generally lead to further investigation as to whether a sexual assault had taken place.

This evidence included some blood. And there was also a small vaginal injury, as well as an unidentified substance found in

her vagina, which never gets identified.

Well, it's just what's happening, totally. What is this? And most confusing of all is the fact that the autopsy mentions that food particles had been found in Kalinka's lungs, a clear sign that she had vomited and exphyxiated, which would have caused her death.

Like that caused her death, clearly. That's what did it. But the autopsy does not draw this conclusion and leaves her cause of death as a known. So Andre calls his ex-wife, brimming with questions. And while she is genuinely devastated, she doesn't seem to have answers.

She lets Dieter handle everything because she doesn't speak German, and she's 100% behind her current husband that he would never do something like this and is upset that Andre's even looking into it. So Andre petitions the German government to test the tissue samples and have a Munich medical examiner analyzed the findings along with the autopsy results.

And in early 1983, that report is released. And this medical examiner says that the iron cobalt injection could have caused vomiting and cardiac arrest, especially after eating. So because of a lack of immune response in any of Kalinka's surrounding tissues, the medical examiner believes that Kalinka, exphyxiated and died very shortly after being administered

this injection. So meaning when he tried to revive her that morning with multiple injections, I guess the site of them, they can tell that she hadn't been alive for quite a while, just based on the marking. And yet he's a cardiologist giving us totally.

And his timeline now doesn't add, because with this information, then him seeing her around midnight telling her, "Go to bed, doesn't make any sense, it just completely blows it out." But German authorities still decline to prosecute Dieter, which leaves Andre dumbfounded. And there's definitely, in the documentary, this mention of this permanent kind of adversarial

relationship with Germany and France, and then Germany, not one need to listen to this guy telling, from France, tell them what to do, tell them to go after what are their own citizens. It's political, it sucks. And Andre kind of knows that.

That's insane now. Yeah, that would even come into my discussion, just like someone a young girl is dead. Yeah, it's not about that. So a few months past, and Andre regroups, he's come to the conclusion that Dieter murdered

And in July of 1983, a year after his daughter's death, he returns to Lindeau and starts to distribute flyers around town.

“The flyers say, quote, "People of Lindeau, you should know that a murderer, Dieter”

Krombach, is living in your city." He raved and murdered my daughter on July 10th, 1982, and his crime has been covered up by doctors, the police commissioner, and the prosecutors, please help me obtain justice. And quote, "Wow." So he goes full on, ballistic.

Yeah. Wow. I mean, he's desperate. He's just a desperate person. He's desperate.

And the first thing that made me think of is, you know, when the, uh, some cults, the way that

they, like, get revenge, or they keep people in, is they flyer neighborhoods, because when people get, like, out of the blue a piece of paper, then it's like, this is the story. Yeah. And that kind of almost like sets the context of the story. Yeah.

So doing, I bet that was, I mean, you're going to tell me, but it's just like, what a shocking thing to people in his town where he lives and is a doctor. Yes. So even if that, if the father, we know, probably he's not crazy. But if he was and did that, there would be that results.

Well, guess what? What? Andre is arrested. And winds up the in charge with defaming Deeter, disturbing the public order and injuring

the reputation of the prosecutor.

So yeah. That's, so everyone says 100% the opposite. Yeah. Wow. He doesn't come back to Germany for his court date, and it sentence in absentia to six months

in prison. But Kalinka had been a French citizen. And so once presented with the evidence by Andre, the French government opens their own investigation. Oh, wow.

That's his in. And investigation that Andre keeps pushing along with his constant requests for updates. I mean, if there's anyone you want on your side, detail wise, it's an accountant.

“An angry, like, how dare you accountant that father?”

Yes. He's right in that way that, like, you didn't do the basic, give the basic respect to this death, totally, because it's a young girl's dead, figure out what happened. And I'm sure he feels, you know, as any parent would, like, somewhat responsible. Sure.

That he let his young daughter go off with, I mean, this is what's so crazy to me about, you know, divorce and then parents getting up with someone else. You have no idea who that person is that they're getting with, or what they're like, what they're about. And you just have to trust that your kid's going to be okay, and that they're not monsters,

right? That's not so difficult. Yes. Horrible. Yeah.

So I'm sure, in a way, he feels like he needs to atone to his daughter. I mean, it's just such a gigantic loss like that, that, yeah, I mean, and she, I feel like she was such their, like, their, his beam of light in this, like, fucked up, we're all at least, you get to see his, you know, beautiful daughter succeed in life. And it's just taken away from him, sugar warning, there's some upsetting details coming

up. So in 1985, French authorities, exhumed Killingka's body. And at this point, it is discovered that Killingka's genitals had been completely removed from her body before she had been buried. And German authorities say they have no idea why, or how this happened, or where this

part of Killingka's body had gone.

“I mean, like, what, what are we talking about exactly?”

And sorry, then the autopsy doesn't reflect anything, like, it says stuff that's the tear, the blood, some fluid, but there's no way to, you know, see if the tear was, like, like, when that happened, if it was from sexual assault, because it's not there. It's just gone. God, I mean, that's so extreme, that's so horrible.

Yeah. The investigation takes years with those same tissue samples being analyzed, and the findings being similar to those of the Munich Medical Examiner, and ultimately in 1993, nine years after Killingka's death, a French court charges Deeter with voluntary homicide. Oh, but Germany refuses to extradite Deeter.

So he's tried in absentia, right? He's tried in absentia, found guilty, and sentenced to 15 years in prison.

Wow, in France, so of course, he never has to serve the sentence as long as he never

sets foot in France again, which he doesn't plan to. What is, what are the connections this guy has? Are you going to explain this to me? Because, you know, how they treat doctors, like, fucking God, for real. This is like, I like Baldwin in that movie, where he's like, I don't play a God, I am God,

because he's a cardiologist. Yeah. And she's like cocky, like German attitude of easy- sorry. But also, it is the weird thing of, 'cause you said it earlier, it's like hierarchy.

Where it's like, it's the cardiologist in the room with the, yeah, with the...

So I'm sure he outranks corner everywhere, totally. And he's calling the shots and saying what needs to be.

“Absolutely, which is why he shouldn't be in the auto-zero, right?”

And this guy is so cocky and so, like, such a creep, so that in 1997, a 16-year-old goes to Dieter's practice for an endoscopic examination, yep, when she gets there, his assistant is out. So lunch, so he's alone in the office and he tells this 16-year-old girl that the examination is uncomfortable, so he's going to administer an anesthetic, we all know where this is going.

When she wakes up, he's sexually assaulting her. Dieter seems to believe that this girl isn't going to report him, but she does, as soon as she gets home. And her parents' press charges, and over the course of this trial, several other victims come forward, saying that the doctor had also given them injections that had knocked them

out and he had assaulted them, although he's not prosecuted for these additional cases. So it's a pattern. Yeah, no. Yeah. He is found guilty of the assault of the 16-year-old girl and sentenced to two years in prison.

However, even though multiple women have testified that he also drugged and raped them, the judge chooses to suspend his sentence, allowing him to go through without doing any time in prison. So clearly weren't there all in some fucking secret club. I mean, what is that, though?

“What is this, this is a person who is intentionally harmed multiple people?”

What is it? And then covering each other's fucking chocolates. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to argue with you on that one.

I mean, Jesus Christ.

But it's like, honestly, it's like, but why, like, what is the ultimately, so you can do it

later? What is the value of that? Well, it's the same thing as when they say, like, well, we don't want to ruin the rest of this young man's life. Right.

Fuck you. Right. Without a second thought to the victim. Yeah. Sorry, he does lose his medical license.

He does. Yeah. Okay. But that's something. I mean, I truly thought it was like, and he was supported in his practice.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the good thing is that a lot of German public in that town were very upset about him not getting any prison time. And I guess it was a big, big deal.

Yeah. So thankfully. And what was the year? At this point, it's 1997 or eight. Yeah.

Yeah. So now knowing this is Dieter's pattern, Andre, it becomes even more obsessive. He's like, this proves my point. I'm not crazy for going after him the way everyone has been saying not everyone. The way people have been saying I am.

And so once again, he sees Dieter tried and convicted and not serving any prison time. And he's trying to keep an eye on Dieter's movements within Germany. But he seems to be moving around different towns a lot. So Andre has a network of people who have his back and they're willing to help him keep eyes on Dieter. And he learns that Dieter is living in the town of Shidig in Germany right by the Austrian border.

And at this point, there's a ticking clock for Dieter to face justice in France. The statute of limitations on Dieter's French charges will run out in 2012, which we've talked about before.

“Why are there statute of limitations on any violent crime?”

And the fall of 2009, Andre hears from his network that Dieter might be preparing to move back to Morocco, where he had lived before. And also he finds out that Dieter is still practicing medicine as like a traveling doctor despite the fact that we lost his medical license. So knowing that Dieter is going to leave, he's this is his last chance to like keep track of him in Germany and seeing no other options. Andre starts going around to every cafe in bar in town and has allowed conversations with anyone who will talk to him proposing a scenario in which someone might kidnapped Dieter and bring him to France.

Oh, I didn't think I didn't think we're going to go there. We're going there. Okay. This subject line I couldn't read you. Okay.

Okay. We're bringing in Jason's death. And if he were in a metal band, this right now. Okay, character. I'm 100% I'm 2000% in now.

Suddenly become a Jason's death. Great. This is the story of the dad who got his daughter's murder kidnapped so he could face charges in France. Yeah. Fucking amazing.

He went into an old, an old bar where just was old guys and fishermen sweaters. So he had their back to him and then he told his story and they all rose up behind him. I mean, this guy's a character. So in early October, Andre gets a call in his hotel room in Austria. The man on the phone introduces himself as Anton.

And he says he will bring Dieter to France. And he's going to do it for free just for humanitarian reasons he says. Oh. Yep. He doesn't want any money.

And he asks for money to cover his expenses.

Basically, the expenses are he has to hire to, like, Russian gang members.

Right. It's so... It's so bad.

“Also, I love and sorry, but in this, the idea that potentially there's like a psychopath out there”

that's like a killer for hire that's like hold on a second.

You've offended my sensibility. I don't have any of that moral compass. And I'm still horrified by what you people have done. It's like, I'm going to do... I'm going to use my powers of people for a good.

Yeah. And it's the show Berry. It's why you love the show Berry. This is basically a passion project for Anton. Yeah.

He will later say that he is deeply affected by Andre's story and his persistence over 30 years to bring his daughter's killer to justice. So Anton and Andre meet on a park bench. And Andre asks, like, what are you going to do? And Anton's like, it's better that you don't know what he deals.

I guess. Just fucking total civil deniability. Spy movie. Yes.

“So Anton tells him to go back to France and await a phone call.”

Wow. So the call comes on October 17th. That night, Andre picks up the phone.

And he's basically told to call the police in a town called Malews France, which is right over the German border.

And that deeter is there tied up. And so he calls the police and tells them where to find him. Just didn't like a ditch or something? No. They basically deeter his now 74 years old.

He's found bruised and bloody and dumped in the street. Like in the street. Just put into France. Yep, just like they, yeah. Yeah.

He tells police he had been kidnapped from his home, driven through the night, and was dumped on the street. And when he found he's in pretty bad shape, he's trust and gagged and bleeding. And so the way Anton tells the story is that he had run deeter's doorbell backed up a few paces. As soon as deeter came out of the door, his two accomplices tackled him, dragged him into the car. He doesn't explicitly mention that in his altercation, they had injured deeter's head.

I mean, they kind of roughed him up.

Yeah, you know. Yeah. Neighbors found blood on the ground. Deeter's glasses and a slipper. Oh.

Yeah. That said, he's found alive in France, and he recovers from his injuries in a prison hospital. And in 2011, he's actually brought to trial in France for culling his murder. Wow. At the trial deers lawyers argue that vigilante justice can not lead to legitimate lawful justice.

Like if they try him, like based on how he got here, it's vigilante justice. Or it's like, okay, okay, vigilante justice. And we're like, fuck that. Well, it's just that they tried regular justice and it did not work. Yeah.

It worked only for for the exactly the bad guy. Right. The prosecution presents all of the evidence from culling his death. At least five women testified for the prosecutor saying that Deeter had raped them after giving them injections that had incapacitated them.

It's really upsetting that the mother up until this point is still like they've divorced at this point. And she's still totally backing her deeter. She's in denial. She's in total denial also because like if it's true and it happened right under your nose. And then from this trial, she finds out that there's multiple young teenage girls who have been injected and sexually assaulted and raped by him.

And that also an old neighbor comes forward saying that she hadn't affair with him while she was still married to the wife. And he would give her sleeping pills so they could have the affair in the house without her waking up. So the wife was also being drugged. Yeah. Just so that he could do it.

Yeah. So he's just an evil man, but like monster during the preparations for this trial. Kalinka's tissue samples had been retested with modern techniques and they revealed the presence of benzodiazepine, which demonstrates that Deeter had injected Kalinka and likely his other victims, not only with iron cobalt, but with a substance specifically meant to incapacitate her,

which is why you do a talk screening on a suspicious girl's death. Yeah. Like they would have found that then.

“That's why you do the same thing every single time for everybody no matter who they are.”

And no matter what doctor standing in the room exactly. So family members of both Deeter and Andre testify with Deeter's. His children stand by him and defend him with the children. Imagine if it was a truth. I mean, it's just I just feel like even though it's your parent.

You have to look at the evidence. You can stand by him and say he's done bad things and still stand by. Right, but then they're on the inside with a, like, associate or psychopath charming you and telling, and also they've lived with this person. Yeah, like they're in the cult already.

Yeah, that's very true. Danielle now divorced from Deeter testifies. And while she doesn't say she explicitly thinks Deeter killed her daughter, she's no longer defending him and she says he was attracted to teenagers.

He sentenced to 15 years in prison.

“After the trial, Andre says, quote, obviously my first thought is for Kildinka.”

Justice has been done in her honor and now I will be able to grieve for her. Deeter launches multiple appeals, all of which are rejected. He's released due to health problems in February of 2020 and dies a few months later

and September at the age of 85 after finally serving time for murdering Kildinka.

And then Andre and Anton are both charged for Deeter's kidnapping. Oh, Anton is sentenced to when you're in prison, which he serves in Austria and in the documentary, he's just like, he goes home and he's like, my parents are proud of me. Everyone is proud of me. Like, he's a local hero.

Yeah, this guy is. He took care of business when this needs to be done. The system wouldn't do it. Yeah, I fucking love that guy. Yeah.

At his own trial, Andre openly admits to his participation. He says, quote, something had to be done. You know, the expression I made the omelette, but it was also necessary to break the eggs. I'm quote, he's found guilty. The judge sentences him to one year in prison and immediately suspends the sentence.

Thank God. I was going to get so mad if he had to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And that is the story of the murder of Kildinka Vemberski and her father's 30 year quest

to bring her killer to justice. That is it's so sad and then it's so satisfying. Yeah. It's like, there's these monsters in the world.

“Then there's also these great people in the world that are like, you know what?”

Because also a father having to do all that by himself. Oh, really? In grief. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Trying to figure out what to do. And it's like to get a call in the middle of life. It's like, don't worry. Yeah. The bad guys are going to take care of the worst guy.

We're on your side. Yeah. That's the bad guy. Yeah. Nice one.

Yeah. That was really good. Let's turn so far left. Please. Let's go all the way around the block and then out of this neighborhood into a very different

a lighter neighborhood. Yeah. We're different things happen. Okay. You're going to like this.

Okay. I think. This story starts just outside of London at L Street Studios. During a taping of the TV show who wants to be a millionaire. You know, that's where it started.

Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah, originally. Okay. Over the years, there have been many international versions of the show.

But it first aired in the UK in 1998. And by its peak in 1999, British millionaire is a huge cultural phenomenon.

About 19 million people watch every episode.

That's about a third of the UK's population at this time. That's when you couldn't record TV. You had a tune in was. Yep. That's what they called it.

Appointment television. You all had to meet up at the right time. Yeah. It sucked. Pretty low.

It was a dark time. So because everybody quote unquote wants to be a millionaire, getting through the screening process of that game show to be a contestant is a feat in and of itself. If you are selected, you join nine other contestants at your taping.

“And then you have to beat them in a time trivia question known as the faster finger round.”

Oh my god. Do you know millionaire enough to know any of that? I'm probably not. It's basically like there's an opening question and the person that gets it's the fastest and correct. It becomes the contestant of the main show.

Wow. So even if you make it to the studio as a potential contestant, there's no guarantee you will end up in the hot seat.

But someone always does and on September 9th, 2001, a British Army major in his late 30s.

Name Charles Ingram is the fastest finger. So he ends up going down to the stage and taking his seat. Opposite the Regis Philbin of England. But first, a man named Chris Territ. I'm sure that people get pissed off if I compare.

Yeah. Chris Territ who is the OG who wants to be a millionaire host. Yeah. To our secondary. And yet still a big deal.

You just feel that. Did I retell that my dad every time read just Philbin was on TV. My dad would get mad and leave the room. Why? He had some serious.

There's some people he doesn't like. I love that. I just want to. That's like when two cats don't like from the neighborhood. Don't like each other.

Why? Way far away. But this would be like in one cat's just walking by having a great life. And the other one's just like, wow. Okay.

So Charles, the contestant is wearing a colorful patchwork. Poll or full patchwork polo shirt and a goofy smile. Oh, yeah. We do have a picture of it. So this is the person that this is all built.

Oh, that whole story is about. That is such a 90's to like, oh, 90's shirt. Yeah. I can't even multi color. Yeah.

We love color block. Color blocking. It came right before hyper color.

Colors.

“Chris Territ asks Charles if he wants to play millionaire.”

And he excitedly shouts back. Quote is the Pope Catholic. Classic. Good one. I'm already off to a good.

Sorry. It's going to be good TV. So now Charles will be asked 15 questions that increase in both value and difficulty as the game goes. If he can make it to the last question.

He wins 1 million pounds.

At this point in the shows, roughly four year history, only two people have ever gone that far. Wow. On who wants to be a millionaire. So the odds aren't great. But this is where the lifelines come in.

So that's basically if Charles doesn't know an answer, he can either take his winnings and walk away. Or he can risk it all and use a lifeline either 50/50 where two of the answers go away. So it's like one of, you know, or phone a friend, which you call a smart person you know and have them help you or you can ask the audience. Okay. So that's how it normally goes.

But Charles Ingram will prove to be no ordinary player. And he's about to go down for better or worse in who wants to be a millionaire history. Oh, shit. This is the story of what's been called the most British crime of all time.

“The 2001 who wants to be a millionaire scandal.”

Wow. Yes. I don't know this. You don't know the top of my head. Oh, yeah.

Like there's a vague, you know, memory of something like this. Right. I couldn't tell you anything about it. Okay. That's so exciting.

Yeah. Because I kind of thought when I said who wants to be a millionaire, you be like, yeah, yeah, no. Okay. Great. So there's a book written by author's Bob Wolfenden and James Plasket and it's called Bad Show. They were at a whole book about that.

They wrote a book. Wow. Apparently in England, this is such a huge story. Everybody knows it. Like everybody.

It's like rude.

It's, first of all, rude.

They love their trivia. Yeah. They're obsessed with that bar trivia and their trivia teams and all that. Cheating on a trivia thing is like, you know, something bad. Right?

Would double of seven do it? Well, then now I shouldn't do it. There's also a documentary called Millionaire Colen, a major fraud. Okay. So the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

So we are back. We are in the studios. We are there. He's just one his seat. He's kind of been dorky.

He begins to play the game now. Okay. So Charles does fine on the first few questions. But at question number five, which is worth a thousand pounds,

he starts to look shaky. He quickly burns through the ask the audience and the phone of friend lifelines. How many questions are there again? 15.

Okay. So that's pretty early to get through two of your lifelines. Way too early. Like you wouldn't normally do that. But I mean, you just don't know options.

So he's one of the questions. What do I get them? Probably not. Well, they increase in difficulty. So in the beginning, like it's kind of like New York Times crossware.

It's like I can do a Monday, her A for Tuesday by Friday. I'm nowhere to be found. Okay. I think it's like that. So it is a very bad sign that that early.

Yeah. He's because then once those are gone, they're gone. Yeah. So he's down to one remaining. So he any slows to a crawl telling Chris Terrent quote.

One of my sub strategies is to take a long time. Right. I mean, so from here on out, that's exactly what he does. He just goes super slow. Question after question.

Charles slowly reads his multiple choice answers out loud. And moles them over at in commentary and to be blunt. Not coming across as all that right. That's Marin's editorial. I'm just reading Marin's narrative.

But just basically that for a person who's in this game. Yeah. Yeah.

But in the end, he always chooses the right answer.

Eventually Charles arrives a question 10. So he gets pretty far. For 32,000 pounds, it's quote.

“Who had a hit UK album with born to do it released in 2000?”

And then the options are Coldplay, Top Loader, Craig David, or A1. I don't know the last three of those. I've never heard the last three. I've never heard of that song. Top Loader, someone named their band Top Loader.

I love Top Loader so much in 1997. And then someone named it after a steak sauce. There's A1 and it's just all sauce. Okay. So Charles immediately reveals he has no idea.

And the basically he burns his final lifeline, which is the 50/50. So his choices are now A1 steak sauce and Craig David. Craig David is a musical performer. Okay. I have not heard of him.

Charles says that he thinks it must be A1 because he's never heard of Craig David. But then he says, quote, 80% of the time I'm wrong when I guess.

I'll go with Craig David. Wow, he's just fucking wearing it. It's his final answer. And he is correct.

“This is a very weird way to play millionaire.”

Charles had banked $16,000 at this point. If he missed that question, he would have been eliminated and left the show with a thousand pounds. If he admitted he didn't know it, he could have walked with 16,000. Right.

And then there always go with your first answer and that, you know, he didn't.

So most contestants probably would have taken the money. This reckless approach that Charles has to basically playing this gambling with it makes for great TV. Chris Terrent will later say quote, he was extraordinary to be opposite. My read was that he was sort of a mad major. Brave as a lion, but completely bar me.

We should have got this translated. So what now? So I was money. Bar me in today's money is $30,000. But completely bar me.

You know, probably a bit thick. Okay. Dim, but nice sort of thing. And quote, my God. Damn.

The millionaire production crew does not know what to make of what's happening. And over the next few questions, as the stakes get higher, Charles continues to answer in this meandering kind of cavalier way. Never seeming to consider walking away with the increasingly large amount of money that he is accumulating. Okay.

Instead, he's totally guessing his way through the highest dollar questions with no lifelines yet. So wow. No one does it that way. Yeah. Somehow Charles stumbles his way to question 14.

There are now just two correct answers separating him from the million pound jackpot. He's asked quote, Baron Hussman is best known for his planning of which city. No, I know this one. No. No.

No. That would have been it. Suddenly you're just like, this is the one thing I have got to ask. Yes, you can't. But you have four options.

Okay. Give me four options. Rome. Paris. Berlin.

Or Athens. Berlin. Charles immediately says Berlin because he thinks the name houseman sounds German. Oh yeah. He still goes through the other options.

Chats them all through eliminates some from contention before zeroing in on Berlin as his final answer.

“But before he confirms it, because that's what they always do at the end.”

He suddenly changes his answer to Paris. Final answer. And he's right. Oh, I was so close to being right. You were really confused.

You came in second. Yeah. That's a Berlin. I would have been right. That's right.

Charles has made it now to question 15. I mean, the million pound question. The host reads the question. Are you ready? Yeah, quote.

A number one followed by 100 zeros is known by what name. A Google, a Megatron, a Gigabit, or a Nanomole. Jesus. Let's just be guessing. So let's not do it.

Okay. Once again, Charles admits he's unsure. He thinks it's Megatron. Maybe Nanomole.

He's never heard of Google.

Just a reminder. It's not so funny.

“I know one of the biggest fucking things in the world.”

In a minute, right? I've never heard of Google. I've never heard of Google because it's the 90s. And I have no idea what the very near future is about to break. Totally.

Just a reminder. Charles can still walk away with the money he's earned. Right. It's half a million pounds up until this point. But then in direct conflict with what he's just announced to everyone.

Charles locks in on Google as his final answer. Who wants to be a millionaire showrunner, Rod Taylor will later say. Quote, it became obvious that he wasn't under the pressure that he should have been. It didn't make sense. He should have been very careful and very certain.

And he wasn't. Yeah, the odds of just guessing all of those questions correctly is very. The numbers low. They're number. It's less than a Google.

I don't know math, but it's low. It's very low. It's less than a Google. I don't do odds. I'm not a statistician.

It seems unlike. It's like more of a Yahoo. Well, and the other part is he's talking through how he doesn't know that. And he doesn't know that.

He's never heard of this.

Yeah. But it turns out Charles answers correct. And with that, confetti drops from the ceiling. And Charles in Rome has just become the third. Only the third winner of British who wants to be a millionaire.

But the vibe in the studio is off. Is it? Sorry. Is it live? Okay.

It's live to the people in the room. Okay. Yeah. Charles is wife Diana who has been watching. Yes.

Charles and Diana. Who has been watching from the audience looks shaken as she steps onto the floor to hug her husband. And around the studio, members of the millionaire crew are visibly seeping. Certain that Charles has just cheated right in front of their eyes.

They just don't know how he did it.

“Charles is even searched on set to make sure he doesn't have any devices on him.”

He doesn't. So he and Diana are sent backstage with a bottle of champagne where they disappear into a dressing room. Staffers will a ledge that they can hear the couple arguing from the hallway claiming Diana in particular sounds pissed. But they can't make out what either person is saying. A member of the millionaire production crew will later say, quote,

These two people had just one a million pounds.

They should have been ecstaticly happy. They should have wanted to speak to their children. They should have wanted to speak to the dog. They should have wanted to do something other than be as miserable as they see. Yeah.

You're not fighting over after a million dollar win. No. On stage, the show goes on. The remaining contestants compete in yet another fastest finger. So that's actually part of it, too, is that they if someone wins, that's over.

Someone can actually lose on like question four, and they need more contestants. That's why they do. They have all the contestants and they play fastest finger. Okay. It's a great idea.

Yeah. So they go on to yet another fastest finger first round to determine who will play the next game. And the winner of that round is 51 year old college lecturer, Teclyn Wittick. But he only makes it to the 8,000 pound question before he is eliminated.

As the taping wraps up on stage behind the scenes, millionaires production team is mobilizing

to investigate Charles. So they're like, I love that nobody's like happy for him. Yeah. Good for you. It's just so impossible.

“But like picture it, where it's like, what's the largest week in America?”

And someone's like, well, yeah, could be lit in the same way. Like he did wrong. Instead of being like, I know I'm only whatever, but I'm super smart. Yeah. I know the answers.

He fixed it wrong. Yeah. Some reason why the ads on TikTok, no one will ever believe those are real people talking to each other. Yeah.

Because it's just like, we've all seen real people talk to each other. This is not real people talking to each other. We know this, it doesn't pass the sniff to us. Yeah. So a few days later on September 14th, the executives at who wants to be a millionaire call

Scott Lynn Yard. And they share their suspicion that Charles Ingram somehow cheated. They're refusing to pay out his prize money until the police look into the matter. So they escalate the whole thing. Oh, it's an illegal thing to cheat on a game show.

Yeah. Okay. I guess it's bad vibes.

“And they've already shelved his episode, which was supposed to air the following week.”

Oh, that's not good. An official investigation kicks off. And Charles gives a statement to the Guardian saying, quote, "I have no idea why they're investigating me. I don't know what there is to investigate."

And so he's claiming completeness. You want to call on a friend? You find out, dude? Okay. Phone a friend with a better spot of better alibi than that.

The millionaire crew is already working out its own theory. So they start looking through the footage from Charles episode. And when they get to the 32,000 pound question about the album born to do it, where Charles claims not to know who Craig David is, but then picks him as the final answer.

Charles's wife Diana is being filmed for her reactions to her husband's game. So she's in the audience. Yeah. And of course, the cameraman is on her the entire time. Right.

Because whether her husband wins or lose, they need that shot. Sure. Here's an interesting side note. Diana comes from a trivia obsessed family. Her brother Adrian is on the British Game Show circuit.

Oh, that's a thing. Okay. You could do it too soon. Yeah. Let's get over there.

Having made it onto several game shows himself, including who wants to be a millionaire. So they've played it already. And when he played it, he won 32,000 pounds. He got to that question. Okay.

Also Diana has already been in the hot seat herself. She has made it through the fastest finger and made it into the city. Oh, that seems hard. Right. Like her brother, she won 32,000 pounds just a few months before Charles made his appearance.

And in the interim between Diana and Charles appearances, they together were selected as potential contestants for a couple's addition of who wants to be a millionaire.

But they never got into the hot seat.

So the millionaire crew goes back and watches the footage from the audience cameras. And because they're focused on Diana for her reaction, they notice that she suddenly develops a cough. Just as Charles runs through the multiple choice answers. I wish it were something brilliant. Can we?

No, can you lie to me? No, I can't. Tell me it was like telepathy. I won't. Never.

Her cough seemed to come whenever Charles reads the name. What the fuck? God. It's okay. It's such a good system.

You have to admit it. Okay. And she's not alone. There's another cougher. And it's Techwin Wittick.

Oh. Techwin also coughs.

Right as Charles reads the correct answer to various questions out loud.

So some coughing of course is expected during a studio taping like this. But a millionaire crew member will later describe seeing Techwin cough in real time. And he'll later say quote. He was only about 10 or 15 feet directly in front of me. And the way he was coughing was rather bizarre.

He was actually turning toward the set to cough. I want to try it. Can we try it? Yeah. Like that?

You go. Yeah. Like it's that. Yeah. It's okay.

Yeah.

“Because you have to have this guy after you hear it.”

Like at some point the guy next to you doesn't know you. It was going to get annoyed with you. It's going to be like. Can you give this book a call for out of here? It's a system director.

Yeah.

Can I speak to you for a second?

Well, this is pre-COVID. Sorry, mid quote. At one point it turned toward the set to cough. At one point he was chatting to the contestant to his left in a whispered way. And then he turned around a full 90 degrees and cough toward the hot seat.

And the entire millionaire set audiences heavily mic'd. So the crew can isolate in enhanced audio captured near Techwin. At one point they hear him chatting with the contestant sitting next to him. The whole thing is on cameras and mics all the way. Yeah.

About the question Charles is trying to answer, which is quote. What type of garment is an Anthony Eden? Is it an overcoat, a hat, shoes, or a tie? Tie? Hold on.

Okay. This is Charles 13th question. He's playing for 250,000 pounds. And like he has before he reads through the four possible answers. As he does, slowly.

Right? That's what that's all about. Techwin coughs three times.

“Each one comes right after Charles says the correct answer, which is, what did you guess?”

A tie? Hat. Okay. I think you only needed a cough one time. For real, like sorry to teach you how to cheat, but like you didn't need to do it every single time.

You're in a silent studio audience. It's required to be silent for the taping of the people talking on the stage. You only need a one-computer operation. Right. Insanity.

Okay. And this is just one instance of this happening of many. As one crew member will say, it's not that hard to explain a cough here and there. But quote, when you're talking about 17, 18 persistent coughs at specific points that appear to be leading somebody, you back yourself into a corner. Can I tell you?

Well, when I had about cheating one time in high school, I was English. So of course I had read the book because I fucking loved reading. It was like the only classic did okay. And a bunch of my friends like had it. There was a quit pop quiz and it was yes, no answers.

So I put my feet down on the ground if it was yes. And put my feet up if it was no. This is something that's genius. And she didn't notice. It was like my favorite teacher.

“So I'm not even going to say, but like everyone passed or everyone did good.”

Just thinking of like three of my friends. Yeah, really good. Yeah, that's. It was so subtle about it. Just like, oh, I'm trying to adjust.

I just have ADHD. I can't sit still. You know how I am. Yes, my feet. My seat seating.

Yeah. Okay. So the example that's often cited as the most suspicious. If not agree, just. Happens during the question about Baron Hussman for 500,000 pounds.

And this is when Charles nearly answers Berlin before he goes back and picks Paris. Right. Which he had just verbally written off to everybody because he goes like, I'm going to pick Berlin. That's going to be Berlin to Paris. But I wonder.

Yeah. Yeah. When the production crew isolates and enhances the audio from the now classic moment. They think they hear tech one cough and then follow it up with the word no. No.

Pro. It's a silent audience. Yes. I mean, I wonder if there's like a little bit of a sound effect or something they're trying to beat.

Yeah. Maybe it wasn't perfectly silent, but still.

Sure enough, instead of saying Berlin, he then basically re reads the options and goes

with Paris. Snaze would have been better. This time, tech one coughs and blows his nose when Paris is read aloud. So let's discover. Oh.

Weird. Yeah. You're like to do a snot. I'm trying to fix this. I'm trying to make it seem.

Yeah. No. So that's when Charles picks it as his final answer. So now it is November. A couple months after Charles is taped appearance on millionaire.

Scotland yards investigation concludes with the arrests of Charles Ingram,

They're accused of conspiring to defraud the show of the million pound prize.

So I bet that's what it was. It's like, oh, it was just a game. Yeah. It wasn't that big of a deal. But it's so much money.

Yeah. Though each defendant adamantly denies the charges against them, they all plead not guilty. Huh. guilty.

The prosecution makes a strong case in court as they have the material evidence, the coughing audio. The Guardian reports that the first time the recording of Techwin's cough no moment is played aloud. Quote.

Every journalist and member of the public burst out laughing. You're going to play. You're going to go ahead and play. You got to. Like, if you want to be humiliated.

“And also, here's the thing people always do this.”

They doubled down. Totally. You get caught. You doubled down. Yep.

Take the hit.

You're going to end up taking it.

And the guy who's going against you is like, okay. Yeah. I mean, if you want to. Here we go. Let's roll the tape.

Say the wife did it. Let's see what happens. Wow. They present footage that appears to show Diana repeatedly looking over to the area where Techwin has seated while Charles is playing

as if her reassurance. So she's like, should we be doing this? Wait. I don't know. I should wait.

All on. All on. They also bring in other contestants who claimed that they too had noticed Techwin suspiciously timed cause. And then they share Diana's phone records.

“She'd been in contact with Techwin a handful of times.”

In the weeks leading up to the show, including a five-minute phone call made on the day Charles episode was recorded. Police put forward the theory that the trio's motive is money. Because they, I mean, a lot literally. It wasn't.

And it wasn't trivia. We did it to learn. It's money because both the Ingrams and Techwin are in significant debt. Sure.

I wish it. They also suggest that the argument between Charles and Diana backstage after the taping may have been about Charles and Techwin going rogue and advancing further in the game than was planned. Totally.

Which risk exposing the entire scene. But like you only went a little bit. Yes. People don't question it. Don't get greedy.

Don't get greedy. Don't be crazy. No, they fucked around and found out. That's British style, which was politely. But the defense hits back.

Charles denies arguing with his wife after the show and maintains that he picked a correct answer's fair and square.

“He claims that talking through each possible answer was”

genuine strategy. He and his lawyers tried to establish that Charles is smart enough to have correctly answered all the questions without help. Though it's unclear if they are successful. Yeah.

The Guardian adds in its court reporting quote. Nobody notices that Charles is wearing a men's a badge. He put it on as a special touch. But it is so tiny. Just a little M on his lapel that the jury can't spot it.

Oh, my god. What eagle-eyed Guardian reporter got in there and was like, you know what he's trying to do. Totally. Only one who noticed.

And also just he's like. But I'm real smart. I got a pin. I found this M on the streets. They called them badges.

They gave me a badge. Good one. And now I'm. And my badge makes me spot. Yeah.

And so Craig David, I am your number one fan. Techwin testifies that he suffers from allergies and legitimately has a coughing issue. Oh my god. Usually it's less coughing and more sneeze.

But okay. When it's pointed out that his cough seemed to vanish when he took the hot seat himself. Right. He claims that he'd had some water just before.

Yeah. Clean water. It everything here's allergies. Techwin and Diana also explained that they did know each other at the time of the taping though not well.

Months prior, Techwin had reached out to Diana through her brother Adrienne asking for tips on how to get on to the show. Diana and Adrienne have both have been on millionaire at this point. And they both are becoming self-styled experts. In fact, they're writing a how-to book called When a Million.

So they're basically trying to touch people how to get on the show. Yeah. Imagine writing a book of like how to get on jeopardy. It sounds like a pamphlet at best. I mean, it's just like you got you read some books.

Booklet paid. Let's read a read like a large font. Maybe a booklet.

If you're in Las Vegas, take the pamphlets being handed to you and read them always.

Oh, so they were in the process of writing this how-to book when Charles makes it into the hot seat. The publication of that book is ax. No. They lose the book then.

So it turns out there is not much hard evidence proving that Charles Ingram knew Techwin. The defense also points out that it would have been difficult for him to differentiate Diana or Techwin's individual coughs during the taping as opposed to any other random cough that was heard.

A sound expert will testify.

Sound expert. A sound expert. I'm a sound expert. Yes, you are. Everyone be a sound, anyone.

Everyone in that control room. That's a sound expert. We got a lot of them around here. There is one and they testify.

“There was a total of around 192 coughs during the taping of Charles episode.”

All right. Although a notable amount. Yeah. 19 coughs were attributed to Techwin alone. Okay.

So is that a lot? I don't know. I don't know what the numbers supposed to be. It seems like a lot.

Well, they're basically saying, I think it's very common because in that situation, you

know you're not supposed to cough. Right. And that's when you really have to cough. Right. So it's probably kind of common.

And they're used to editing them out. But usually everybody gets one or two. Sure. Not 19. Yeah.

Go like cough 19 times.

“That's how you realize how obvious an insane it is.”

Yeah. In another fun trial moment, a coughing expert is put on the stage. What? I think I wanted to sound expert in the coughing experts from a dating. And I'm a baby in that's a baby expert.

And the baby is an expert about himself. But when the coughing expert gets put on the stand, court has to be put on hold, because two jurors go into coughing. No. Because it's also just a bowl.

Totally. The yawning thing. I just took the yawning thing and applied it to coughing. 100%. Thank you.

Now I feel like I need a cough. Do it. Do it. Sheat me into the end of this story. In the end, though, the jury finds Charles and Diana Ingram and Tekwin Whittick guilty.

Charles and Diana each receive an 18-month suspended sentence and are find a collective 25,000 pounds. Okay. So they don't get the money. Oh, they don't get the money.

Oh, they don't get the money. Oh. Tekwin meanwhile gets a 12-month suspended sentence. And his finds and fees total 17,500 pounds. The who wants to be a millionaire scandal breaks at a time when British tabloids are particularly

ruthless, right, late 90s. So that's so naked. Like just tits everywhere. Yes. That's right.

The media attention in this scandal is overwhelming. The public do not treat the Ingrams kindly. No. They're disgraced. They're financially ruined.

Charles loses both his military status and his pension. Wow. Luses everything. Wow. And the family are subjected to near constant harassment.

Charles later talks about their windows being broken bags of vomit. Oh, that's their house. And even their pets being attacked. No. Their three young children are bullied at school.

It is a, it's for the like a nationwide scandal. Everyone knows about it. Wow. Yeah. He's a tech-lin, loses his job, and like Charles and Diana becomes the butt of a nationwide running joke.

At one point he has to trademark his own name after a company tries to use it for a line of cough problems. Oh my god. They got canceled. They got two thousand canceled. They got 90s canceled, which is like the bullying. Yeah, it's okay. You can say anything about you. Be evil. Yeah. Then in 2003, ITV airs a documentary about this case called major fraud that is heavily weighted towards the prosecutions version of events.

It's watched by nearly 17 million people. So almost as much as who wants to be a millionaire with the highest ratings for a non-fictional TV program since Princess Diana's funeral.

Holy shit. This documentary arguably helps solidify Charles guilt in the minds of the public, but over the years, more and more journalists and writers have questioned whether the prosecutions evidence proved beyond a reasonable doubt that these three genuinely cheated.

“Yeah, I thought it was going to be not guilty, honestly, right? Because it's like it's vague enough to be like there's a it's opinion really rather than fact.”

Well, it's very nuanced. Oh, it's almost like do do these does a plus be. Yeah, I mean, I obviously believe it. It's true. They cheated, but yeah, but you can prove. Yeah, yeah, you're saying court wife. Yeah. Today, the story of the coughing major is alive and well in Britain. The reason we don't know it well is because this incident happened two days before 9/11. I noticed that it's one of those lost totally things where everyone in England knows it very well. There was a recent mini-series star starring Matthew McFadden and flea bags Sean Clifford, the sister.

No way, as the ingrams. Okay. Yes. And the real Charles and Diana ingram have appeared on other game shows here and there as novelty contestants, but mostly they live a private life and they reportedly sell custom made jewelry at craft.

We didn't cheat on that show. There was no plan to cheat on that show. I won that money perfectly, honestly and fairly and squarely.

“No, allegedly. And that is the story of the who wants to be a millionaire cheating scandal.”

Wow. I didn't know that one. Crazy. Yeah. Right. I thought I had some crazy idea of the cheat. So when you said coughing, it was that simple because I thought it was like a multi-level like people who work there were in on it. No, it was like a fucking buzzer on your leg or whatever. No, it was old school. It was Georgia and high school love. Yeah, right, which is like, but yours was way better. You can't do something audio. I just think that getting greedy was the fucking thing. They had the perfect plan up until 32. She was mad at him. Yeah. I feel bad for them though. Now like that they were so.

Ripped apart. Like that's just so. Right. Because also it's like trying to get money on a game show. Yeah. It's like you shouldn't be the worst person in the country. I would have thought they were like heroes a little bit like hometown heroes kind of right. But it was the toxic 90s 2000s. Right. Where was just like, here's the latest person we're going to crucify. Let's all go everybody brainlessly and mindlessly. I feel like at some point it's going to change and they're going to be beloved by their people.

We're going to start it right now. Yeah. Guys, England, hear us out. We've made a lot of mistakes with your pronunciation. What is the UK? What isn't the UK? Sometimes we don't know. I think about that twice a week that I made the mistake of calling Ireland the UK. Why am I saying it again? But this is what I'm saying. It's just like this is this is what happens when you fucking volunteered to put yourself on TV. When you fuck around, you usually find out you get found out often often so true. Wait, did this ever air? No. Okay. So we do of course have pictures because it was something.

Yeah. So this is when Diana was a contestant. Okay. She made it. And then here's one tech win was a contestant.

“Okay. They don't look like cheaters. They really don't look like teachers. But I think that's the thing about British people, right?”

It's like you're so polite and you look so, you look so kind. You sound smart. You're accidentally just sound really smart. And yet you colonize the entire world. Sorry. And yet, I mean, won't give Ireland. It's all in country back. If Ireland back to the Irish, they're not a part of the UK. We've been on this show. We've learned that here.

And then here's the couple together. Okay. Let's see. Oh, I mean, they win because they found love, like, and everyone else's face.

They're still together. I would like to be their defense lawyer for one second.

And just say, look at that lovely kitchen that they came up with the stupid idea in where they're like, We're going to game the system a little bit. Yeah. We've already been on there. We can't go again. We need that money. Yeah. That sort of feels like to me. We need to remodel this kitchen. I'm sick of this kettle. It's, it's the old kettle that we got it for a wedding. This, this kettle.

You don't hear anything. And then all of a sudden sounds like a train's coming to the front. So let's, let's, let's go. Let's go cheat the dumbest public way we possibly can. So public. Just rob a bank. And also it is, I think when people get mad about stuff like that is because it's this overt disrespect. Yeah. To their intelligence. Where it's like, right.

You think we, you know, didn't notice coffee McGee over here the whole time? Right. Oh, that's not that they didn't think of it. Amazing. Right. It was fun. I know. I know. We tried. We tried to balance it out. Yeah. On the right here, these ones all I think about is like a couple on a road trip.

“And she's like, just, you have to listen to it.”

Because I know this is like horrible. And we're talking about like really bad stuff.

But the second story is always a little lighter.

They do, they do something differently. Second much. But the response important. And you will listen to what it is like. The juxtaposition is amazing. It's part of the producing, right? Also, it's important to talk about the things of, it was the 90s. It was this. But, but now it's kind of like a cardiologist in the autopsy.

We're calling the shots. Yeah. And all the young people from this era who are now becoming forensic pathologists.

I love it. And whatever else they're coming to, basically be the people who are like,

I love it. I love when someone comes up to us and says, I'm a cardiologist.

“I'm going to school for forensics or something like that.”

Yes. Yes. You're going to change the world. They're going to go in and represent. Yeah. Yeah. We support you. Yeah. Murderers. You're doing great with your studies and your, and all the ways that you fight back. Yeah. Great work. We're, um, fans. Yeah. We really are.

Welcome to another installation of honking her is brought to you by Hyundai.

Wow. You want to do first? Sure. This is a good one.

This is from Clove and Hound on Instagram. Hi Karen and Georgia. I was just elected president of my all volunteer search and rescue team. Whoa. And stepped into the role of head trainer at 33 years old. S.A.R. search and rescue is a very male dominated field.

“And as a woman with anxiety, leadership always felt impossible to me.”

But I've been listening to M.F.M. That's us since before I ever started training and the strength and resilience in the stories you tell helped me push through fear in every tough scenario. Wow. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you, Clove and Hound. Congratulations. Good job. Fix my hair for you. Well, this one, uh, this Larry says from Kate Tauri on Instagram says, "I tried out for a part in a local theater production and got the lead. I'm 40 and it's the first time acting since high school."

That is incredible. And you know what? She's playing Annie.

Is she? No. Not for you, me. She's a little girl. She's a 40 year old with a weird curly wig. Okay. This one is from Kristen loves cats. Good for her. Yeah. I only have two weeks left at the office. I'm now at before I get to go to a job with better pay. Oh, Chloe. Nice. Good job, Chloe. Congratulations, Chloe. You've done it.

Take a vacation. What are you gonna buy? This one says from Kate's 286 on Instagram. As an eldest daughter putting up boundaries with the fan, no more organizing or planning for me. Wow. Sometimes you can just be the person who shows up. Just show up. That's the youngest daughter. That's right.

“That's what we say you can do. That is what you're bringing to the party.”

Yeah. Yourself. That's plenty. Okay. This one is from Taylor Castlean. It says, "I bought bedside face wipes at Georgia's recommendation for a lazy bedtime makeup room, move all." She did it. That's a array. It's the simple things in life. This one's from Kareness. It's from fancult and it says,

"I found a picture of an Irish relative from the early 1900s. I put it somewhere safe and promptly forgot where it was. It's been, quote unquote, "safe for a couple of years." I was cleaning out old books the other day and I found the picture back. It is now safely framed and on a shelf for display.

Because I always check your books before you donate them because you never know what you stuck in there.

Cash? Cash? What things like the cash? Treasure maps? Well, thank you guys for sending us your arrays. We love them all and thank you again to Hyundai for presenting them. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Bye!

Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our managing producer is Molly Smith. Our consulting producer is Kate Schelmbach. Our creative lead is Allison Gosty.

Our associate producer is Tessa Hughes and our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Leonis Volacci. Our researchers are Marin McLashon and Ali Elkin. Email your hometowns to my favorite murder at gmail.com and follow the show on Instagram at my favorite murder.

Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for my favorite murder at us to your list and hit the double thumbs up button.

Goodbye!