Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 87: Hither And Yon

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast "Doubt," the case of Lucy Lepby, we unpack

the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? "Out of space, it's the moment you look at the whole picture of the case, Colach." What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe, oh my God, I think she might be innocent?

Listen to doubt, the case of Lucy Lepby, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckard, in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor.

“But here's the thing, Bachelor fans hated him.”

If I could press a button and rewind it all I would, that's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. "The media is here, this case has gone viral." This is unlike anything I've ever seen before.

I'm Stephanie Young, listen to Love Trapped on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on a biggie when you feel uncomfortable?

So I want to get confident. This is DJ Heaster Prince, music is therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist, 12 months, 12 areas of your life. Money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast, it's unconventional therapy for your entire year.

Listen to DJ Heaster Prince, music is therapy. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's right, every Wednesday, we recap our old episodes with all new commentary updates and insights.

“Today we're recapping episode, episode 87, which we named Hitler and Yann.”

This episode came out on September 21st, 2017. All right, let's listen to the intro of episode 87, episode 87, episode 87. episode. Welcome to my favorite murder, a true crime podcast for people who are into facts and percentages.

That wouldn't solve. It's not a fact. That's right. That's Karen Katagara. That's Georgia Hardstark.

And welcome. We're finally back in my apartment. Yeah, this is quite an adjustment. I know. I'm like, I've been really looking forward to this to just be like in our element.

I was going to clean up the podcast loft. What happened? It, I mean, all you to do is look at it, to know what happened. It's like a fucking bomb went off in there. And Australian gift bomb?

Australian gift bomb. We watch wrestling, fucking merch bomb. Oh shit. There's empty fucking sparklets, bottles up there.

I always forget that there's two podcasts being being deemed out of this apartment.

Yeah. So there's a lot. There's a lot going on, not just us. Yeah. And both events and I like are the keepers of the things.

So it's just, you know, there's also a capbuff. I'm going to be honest right now. Okay. Yeah, good. I welcome that honesty.

Yeah. I don't have an capbuff equivalent in my house at the moment, although I did open the door to a new, my dog walker when I'm a patient. And she told me she had a replacement, but she didn't say the replacement was automatically coming.

She just gave me the number of the person I could call. Oh. And so like 11 in the morning while I was wearing, when I wear my black pajamas, they become black with white hair pajamas. And I was sitting there, working on something, and the adorable wearing, you know, was like,

what could possibly be happening right now? It's not the worst feeling when the doorbell rings. It's the worst. It's unique to the door. Quietly.

And look out the thing. People in the num like, uh-huh. Yeah. But like, I'm like front door on the sidewalk. Right.

So it's whoever. And a lot of times, it's people who are showing for a church or a real estate agency. Hey, are you thinking about selling your house?

“Hey, I think you should sell this piece of shit out, so you can get out from underwater.”

It's usually that. One time, it was the bug man, did I tell you about that? And when I opened the door in the guy goes, hey, I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm, and then he stood back a little bit and goes, the bug man, and I just shut the door. He was like, he started to say my neighbors used him to like, and exterminate or something,

but he, he was really young and good looking and I had like a uniform on it. And I was just like, get out of here, don't try to charm me.

You're going to bug charming like, no, never, never.

accents. Oh my God.

“So I was like, and Georgia immediately goes out because they have the, the, the, the door open.”

Yeah. And story, but it, the, the long story of it is, I met the dog walker that I had no intention of calling, because I didn't want to talk to a new person, and we have to make some kind of a new connection. No.

I was going to be like, fine, I'll do it myself. Yeah. And then they, she, she has showed up now every day to like, it is her pattern. I can't tell her, like, leave me alone. No, she's already, they've ordered been in.

They've seen the worst of the worst. It's something where you like know that someone's counting on the money that you're paying them. Yeah. I kept it in that position where you're going to show up no matter what, where you, I thought

that I was getting this much money this week from the job that I thought I had. And then someone tells you you're not. And you're so broke that you're like, well, now I thought I could cover rent. And I can't. Like, that's happened to me.

And I burst into tears because I was like, you canceled on me. And now I'm fucked. So what you went and did something? No, no, I never did it. But it's like, I don't want, I wouldn't want to disappoint.

I wouldn't want to do that to someone who's like, hi, I'm here. Like, I'm supposed to be, you're like, no, actually, can you take this week off? Yeah. Um, we're going on this tour now. It started in Australia and who knows where and who knows when.

And who knows when and what and how and why and why and it could be, I mean, stay tanned. What we can guarantee you is an event full. You never know. But you know what's cool about that is like, I have a issue with going to any, I, maybe

a more son as younger, like any event alone, like just showing up anywhere alone, freaking me out. I've seen a movie alone once, like, as an experiment, because I was so scared. And I'm like, no, I fucking exploited him with his girlfriend there for me. So like, oh, that's how great it went.

It was. It was there will be blood, which is like, we don't want to watch a load.

“Like you need to talk to someone to better know.”

Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot. I'm going to be alone. Oh, you could hide behind because it's like a good movie with a good director. So you could be like, oh, I just had to see this film or I could be like, I was with my

friend, but they got triggered and ran out. Yeah, that's right. I just ran. They hate milk. And milk.

They ain't. And lots of things.

So yeah, so people are always people who we meet with the shows, tell us that they

came alone. Yes. It's such an event because so many people have anxiety and they're like, and it was incredible in that awesome people. Yeah, that's true.

So that to me is like the people who are scared of coming alone, like you're going to be sat next to someone who you're going to be best friends with. It's really true. Yeah. It's just everyone.

Oral. And then because everyone's the same pretty much. Oh, my God. The same has the same feel of person. It's hilarious to me.

“And also when people tell us they're alone when they come to meet us at the meet and”

greet, I always go, there'll be somebody that's alone and they'll be like, that girl over there's a lot. We always like yell over, like go touch her and like if you wear like a shirt that's like funny that like relates to something murdery, someone's going to be like, where did you get that be my best friend?

Someone had a shirt on at one of the meet and greet said, said, the husband did it. Did I hear about this? And I bought a spoof. I bought a spoof. Yeah, because that was a best shirt.

And I worked at therapy just to be like, here's what you have in your face.

And then my therapist, this is how I'm talking sweet he is. He was like, oh, what, yeah, it's always a husband's fault and I'm like, no, that has been murdered. He just didn't get, oh, he could've been like sighting. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and in fact, I bought a car this week.

Oh, yeah. Yesterday, which was like exciting on a lot of levels and scary and the car dealer was like the super normal dude and we were like looking at the car and he opened the trunk and Vince choked like, which I love that Vince said this. Oh, you could've had a few bodies in there and then he points to the emergency latch

and just goes, just make sure you disable that. Oh my god. Wow. It was like sold. Yes.

Right. That's a good say. You're my guy. I bought the car for me. How old is he?

He definitely didn't listen to the podcast like this ever, like tweeted it and feel like he must be a no. You know, it's just was like a family man. Lots of people have good senses of humor. Yeah.

I like that style. I do too. Well, you're just going, like you don't know if I'm in a if I'm going to be I've been locked in a trunk before my life. But you're just fucking picking it out.

You know what it is? It's if you've been locked in a trunk before in your life, the fact that you're making

the joke first means you're okay with it, which means he can do what he wants.

Right. And that it's actually additional relief that he would join in and not leave you hanging. Right. Or go, oh my god. What's wrong with you?

Right. The bullshit salesman personality. Yeah. It's why I like people like that. And I hate myself for liking them because it's such an obvious like those smooth

talkers are my favorite and they're the they're the most full of shit people who don't this would be. Right.

Health drilling. Yes. Exactly. They go along with it. It's like constant high end improvisation.

Sure.

“That makes you have to be smarter and quicker, too.”

But it also is like you're being heard. It's exhausting. It's thrilling. I cannot get a sense of time or place of because of that being back. I know that it's too long to complain about jet lag.

I'm still complaining about it because I'm still there. Well, it's just that it wasn't a vacation and we were constantly busy. Most people don't fly three times inside of their flight to and from home. No. No.

I'm feeling that one on within the traveling was very intense studying so much. When I went to write my murder for this week, it was not enjoyable because there were so many that we had to do for Australia. And so many that I research for Australia. Yeah.

And so many too because they were so intense. There's some fucked up stories about like five that are half-written that I was going to do for Australia. Yeah. And it's almost good though because now it feels like well, we only have three in Detroit

and Toronto. How great is that? That's a fucking walk in the park. It's no big deal. That's a cake walk in the park.

“There's something about Australian true crime that is very dark.”

It's like, oh my god. It is. For some reason, maybe it's this judgment feels darker than regular. It feels like the only murders that are huge murders. Yes.

Like, they don't have guns, so it's like a drive by us. No, it's like a guy that's got like picked up a handful of red clay and painted his face red and then hidden the bushes to intentionally kill the innocence. Yeah. It's a lot of that over and over.

Or killed his family on the next level of family killing. Yes. What is that familiar side? Oh yeah. Yeah.

I just picked the story that's the best to tell in terms of you're not going to fucking believe. Right. I'm dipped into like ghost stories and shit. I've gone when I can't go directly to it, which is a thing that like, I know a lot of

murder owners are like, I'm a murderer. You know, have been since day one. This is my jam, which is great, but not everybody does it 24/7 and like I personally can't do it. So I have like, I definitely have like murder fatigue right now because I just don't want

I don't want to read about another acts. But that's just a point. I can't get enough. I still can't get enough. Like I had to restarting a murder and then ended up, you know, watching six others

on YouTube, which is like, has the most fucked up ones. And then I was like, this isn't even what you're talking about this week's stop. I have to like make myself stop watching it. Oh, I did the same thing where I kept there's all kinds of somebody tweeted this actually

because there was a Buzzfeed list of like 16 of the most fucked up murders you've never

heard of. Which as someone tweeted us an all-married murderiness say, yeah, right, like trying me basically. And they were most of ones that we've heard, but I always, I read those, I go through and I'm like, of course, I've heard it, heard it, heard it, heard it, and I feel like now I'm at that point of like, it's almost like a magic, the gathering level, nerd, murder,

nerd thing where I've, I feel like I've had my hands in it for so long that I just am like, just for a little while. Like, I don't want to play this game anymore, just for a little while and maybe it's just a traveling. It'll get, before we started this podcast, I would have to take long breaks from murder

or stuff because I would get really depressed.

“So the only thing that's kept me from that now, which I, because we've been doing it non-stop”

is this, it's a job now, but I fucking would get dark and deep and depressed and scared of the world. Yeah, because it's, it's scary. It's scary. It's definitely scary.

On a positive note, self-care everybody, Stephen, heralded and lauded at all through Australia. People lost their child.

She basically had a secondary meet and greet line where people would walk away from

us and then walk over to Stephen's meet and greet and, like, I'm a present for Stephen, like every time. I need to go, give this to Stephen and have his hand sign up. Yeah, couple people are like, can Stephen be in this photo and we made him do, now Stephen has a signature pose, which is on one knee with his chin on his fist, child 90s.

Yeah. Start a problem thing. Yeah, it's perfect. Oh, can I shout out a fucking podcast that I've been listening to that I really love?

Podcast corner. It's called the Fall Line. It's a female investigative journalist who every season is going to talk about marginalized crimes and marginalized communities in Georgia. Whoa.

Yeah. Where she's from. So that's kind of what she's doing. She kicking off with the Atlanta child killer. No.

She's like doing ones that we don't know about that have been like bungled. Oh, yeah.

So this is the first one's a 1990 disappearance of these twin sisters to net engine net

There were 15-year-old African American girls on their way home. Good girls. They weren't. The typical not runaways. Yeah.

Fucking disappeared. Oh, horse quote.

There was always, and never got looked into.

And so this is actually like reopening the case and they're looking into it again now. And it might get another one of those ones again in Georgia where it might get. So yeah. That's amazing. They tried to do runaways in the 90s.

Five. Yeah. I mean, it was a poor neighborhood in Georgia in the rural, you know, in Georgia, African American community. But like the girls had seizure medication and didn't have it with them.

Like, you don't run away without your seizure medication. I'm sure don't. Yeah. And they were good girls and not that bad girl, so good to disappear. Right.

But that's part of the, when it's the disenfranchised cultures, the people, the larger media or the larger interpretations, always, they were asking for it, the disfunction. They did something. They deserved it. And that's why it happened.

Right.

“And then there, because I think the people think that way, so they can just break off”

from any kind of care, emotional responsibility.

And it's like, not my problem, but I want to happen to me or anyone I love because, well, this is a really good one because she, um, she looks into all the possibilities, including like a couple serial killers in the town, one of which sounds so fucking likely. Wow. And, uh, it's just a really, it's one of those, you know, female investigative journalists

in podcast that has a ton of fucking empathy. So it's, you feel it too. Oh, that's great. So that's the fall. That sounds amazing.

The fall line. That makes me think that, um, our friend Joe Thorne Lee, the last name was, someone just tweeted at me. She's number one. No.

She's not got the number one podcast right now with her podcast, Zellett, which is about cults. Um, she was, she was the hometown, the end of the live Sydney show, which went up last week. She was the hometown murderer, which we originally brought up because she said she can moonwalk.

It would be a heavy episode, like, because of what we're talking about. So we were like, come up and moonwalk by the way, they have a hometown, and she totally didn't. She was charming as fuck, and she's like, I also have a podcast called Zellett about cults.

And I, I looked at her Instagram and it was like, oh my god, I'm number 46. I'm not that comedy. She's also, it's about cults, but it's comedy, which is like so overall. Yeah. Um, I'm number 46.

I'm a comment. The iTunes comedy podcast.

“And then I looked at him, I'm like, oh my gosh, she's number three, right?”

The lowest. And now she's number one. She's number one. Girl. Girl.

That's how it happened with us. Like yeah. I messaged her on Instagram. I was like, I bet I know how you fucking feel right now, but I'm fucking enjoy the coolest things ever happened.

That's so good. Yeah. I'm so happy for her. Yes, she does. That's so funny.

And it was purely because she sent the perfectly, the concept of the tweet was, you guys might not feel like talking by the time you get to the end. Let me just come up and moonwalk for you, and just the idea of that was so hilarious. She can't have imagined that we would have picked that, because it's not what we do. No, it was just like a sidebar, but it was so funny.

That was so funny. And she definitely moonwalked too. I mean, that was a good idea. She moonwalked in high heels. Oh, my God.

That was crazy. It was great. It was great. Happy for her. Anything else?

I haven't watched the confession tapes. I don't want to talk about it. I get them. Literally 40 tweets a day. I'm saying watch it.

Confession. Confessions are not my thing because they stressed me out so much. It's so stressful. And I can't wrap my head around them, even though I understand the ins and outs. It's just so hard.

I get so angry and stressed out that I can't watch that. But I am watching our Jessica Beal, the center, the center, I'm on episode 3. I'm really suddenly getting into it.

Like the first episode, I was like, man, second, okay, third, I'm fucking there.

Yep. It's good. How about the dirty, dirty bill pulmoness? Oh, he's so sexy. Oh, he's dirty.

Oh, he's a dirty, he's a slut. He's a dirty bird. It's nice. He wants to be shamed and just a mission. I also love that woman that plays his dominatrix or girlfriend or whoever that woman is.

Yeah. He just looks like a normal woman. The second, I see women like that on TV. I'm like, oh my god, there's just someone real on TV. They're letting someone not amaciated beyond TV.

Do you know what else? Her character is that she works at a classy restaurant instead of like, because she looks like she'd work at a dive bar in the, on the, you know, off the drag. Right. It's like, nope, she works at a high-end restaurant.

It's like, they're not fucking making her this character that everyone thinks she is. No, she's like a self-possessed, self-actualized sex worker, slash, ex-girlfriend, slash, something else. It adds to the interest of like, yeah, this is how complex human beings actually are. Yeah, that actually is really no matter what.

“And I think I'm, I think I'm really into it, but even if I'm not, the characters are really”

interesting. I think I'm really into it. Don't fight it.

No, I'm going to, I bought the, I bought the fucking Susan Pass, I'm in, I'm going to get my money as well. It's great. Yeah. It's really, it's really well-acted.

Yeah. I am watching something because as I announced that I was just taking a light, a light axe break, there's a show called Toast of London. It's not like me. I have, if you, I'm imagining it right now.

Do you, are, do you like Peep Show and show? I love Peep Show. Oh, okay. That's not my theory. Who, the bigger guy from Peep Show, right?

No, no, no, he's not from Peep Show. But he just, it reminds me of when you, sometimes when I watch British comedy and it's so, it's so intelligently funny that it makes me, it, like, it makes me feel like screaming as I watch.

“Because you don't, because you have to be quiet the whole time because you're going to miss”

a fuck anything. So you have laugh out loud. You don't laugh. Yes. You're, you're just listening as hard as you can.

And they're so dry. There's no, like, punch line. And it's like saying, everyone wants everyone to be this funny. Like we're doing it here. Why won't you allow?

Right. People to do it there. Anyway, it's called Toast of London. He is, like, kind of a wash-a-bacter. We just give a whole hilarious.

From dark places. Yes. Dark, dark places. Dark places. Dark places.

Dark places. It's just excellent. Also, there was a clip we have to talk about this. But there is a scene from Matt Berry's sketch show where he goes. I mean, someone going to help this girl.

She's carrying a big, just to have you seen it. And they're walking. Like, let me take that for you. He's being super fake, sweet.

“So we're, and then she goes, he's like, what are you going out of this?”

And she finally goes, like, oh, my boyfriend's apartment's right around.

Oh, I guess. So cute and throws it down. And it's just, some did a super cut of all the time. She does that. Oh, my God.

And he's just thrown kick, drop kicks a dog. The minute a girl says, a woman says, I'm a boyfriend. My boyfriend, my boyfriend. My boyfriend. So cute.

So funny. And the fish, the fish tank had fish in it. And he broke it. And they were on the ground. Yeah.

He smashed it as hard as he could. Listen. So good. So good. Oh.

No, go to you, too. But just to blend in is on Netflix and peep shows on still on Netflix, right? And do you know that peep showed they're coming out with a new season? Oh, my God. Yeah.

They're like doing a, I think it's called something, it's, it's, sorry, it's not peep show, but they're coming out with a new show. Good. Hey, should we sit down? Yeah.

Should we talk about murder? Yeah. Let's do it. Who the fuck is first? And why do we basing it off of?

Sydney? Sydney? Yeah. The last show in Sydney? I'm sorry.

The show at the Opera House. Oh, the Opera House show. That show we did at the Opera House?

Who went first that time?

I believe you did. Okay. Because you went, you went last year to the shark arm. The shark arm was on Sunday. So it was in the end.

And I was first at second night. Yeah. So it's me. Okay. And we're back.

We're back in the pod lofts. Pod loft days are still happening. Yeah. There's cat bar, you know, all the stuff. All the stuff that we used to talk about.

What a compelling podcast. You know what I love is that going alone to our shows became a thing. I love that so much. I feel like we talked about a fear and then everyone knew, everyone knows it. And then we like conquered it.

“I mean, it's the kind of fear that I think is so relatable.”

Everyone has it. You don't want to go somewhere by yourself. Yeah. And it's so easy to tell yourself all the things that could happen or the judgments. And so then it's like almost creating that space where it's like trust that this would be a good space.

Right? People keep going like, it is. Yeah. It's very satisfying. And I'll say, like, I've gotten over that so hard that I love going places alone.

I feel like mysterious. Like I'm Carmen San Diego or something like that. I know. I love it. Can I give a tip on going places alone?

Definitely. If it's a party and maybe this is just for me. But one of my most successful going to a party alone was kind of a little bit of a Hollywood one where I was like, I really want to go to this and it'll be fun. And it's kind of big so I know I'll see people that I know there and it'll be fine.

But it was just that like, how do I get through that front door? Yeah. And so what I did was I left my person the car put lipstick and like the things I wanted in the pockets of this coat that I loved.

That's like it was like basically like a little swing coat.

And then I just wore my coat on my. So it's like I had this weird little protection on. Yeah. Where I was like I don't have a purse where I'm like I just came in from outside.

Maybe you don't know. You don't know. You just can't know.

You replied to me the last time I went to a party.

The other thing that you do you can wait till someone else is going in by themselves. I didn't do it on purpose but I walked up to my friends door. And this is of total fucking Hollywood brag. Like the same time there was a single another single woman walking in and we met and became friends and walked in together. Yes.

I walked into a party with Judy Greer. Oh my god. And it looked like I came with her. And she was the fucking nicest. Oh good.

She brought a candle as a gift. She like housewarming gift. I love hearing that she was the nicest. Yes. And I brought donuts.

She was lovely. She's so good. I know. She's such a good actress. And you could tell she was a little nervous too.

Walking in a low. It's fucking Judy Greer. Well, it's like when you and I went to that Megan Malali party that was like the her witches brew party. Right. And I had the same experience with Lisa Coutro when you were like one person away from me because you were talking to somebody.

Yeah. I was just kind of standing and I'm waiting. And then she over her. She goes, did you just say blah blah blah? I think she was like, are you talking about a network?

And I'm like, yeah. She basically was like, tell me about it. I'm like, okay, Lisa Coutro. Judy Greer. Go ahead.

Sounds good. Everybody act as if I love it. All right. Tips and tricks. We've done it.

We're getting it all out today. Yeah.

“I think if you don't have stuff in your hands and you can make it so that you can keep your hands in your pockets the whole time if you want to.”

And make it that you could slide out and I wish goodbye the entire thing at a point. No one would know. And then you're about purely safe. I like it. Oh, my god, you were a t-shirt therapy that said husband did it.

That was my favorite shirt for the longest time. I have one that's got a kitten on it. And it says filled with rage. That's my favorite.

I do wear my favorite TikTok sweatshirt, which is this amazing hilarious drawing of a frog sitting down trying to touch his own toes with a cup of tea.

And underneath it says self-care. See, you're just like us. But that's literally like kind of a one-off. There's not many. I just get to 90 self-conscious. Yeah, I'm just like, I don't want to.

You just kind of a thing. Don't need anybody reading my body. Right. It's like, it's like a look at me thing. You have a band. If I can.

No thanks. No, look at these tips. You're the hunker. Get over here. I love strawberries.

I have a strawberry shirt on right now, everyone. Oh, yeah, that's right. I have many strawberry shirts. Well, it's a very 80s. Oh, yeah.

The thing in the 80s, have you ever seen the 80s or did your sister or anybody else have the

“Ditto's, the jeans that had like little designs on the back pockets?”

Yeah. And then it was like, I got ones with cherries on the back. Right. I got ones with blah, blah, blah on the back. Strawberries were big.

I think it reminds me of the hungry hunker-hungry caterpillar as well. Oh, yeah. It's been really happy. A wonderful book. Okay.

Should we get into it? Yeah, I guess we should. No, I think we should describe. Well, we're wearing. Oh, yeah.

Okay. It is time now to get into Georgia's story about Jack Gilbert Graham and Flight 629. Oh. In 2023, a story gripped the UK of looking horror and disbelief.

The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain?

A nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the full story? A moment you look at the whole picture of the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox.

And in the new podcast doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we followed the evidence and hear from the people that lived it.

“To ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was?”

No voicing of any skepticism are doubt. It'll call so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to doubt the case of Lucy Letby on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Clayton Eckard, and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan.

He became the first bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected.

The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show? Made even bigger headlines. It began as a one night stand and ended in a courtroom with Clayton

at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. A great a date me, but I'm also suing you.

This is unlike anything I've ever seen before.

This is Love Trapped.

“This season, an epic battle of he said she said,”

and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. I'm done nothing to get pregnant by the **** Brassler. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ever feel like you're being chased by the marriage police.

Welcome to Boys & Girls. The podcast by dating isn't dating.

A ranged marriage is basically a reality show.

Except the contestants are strangers and your entire family is judging. You're sitting coffee with one maybe, grabbing dinner with another and praying your carmy can or Barbie appears before your shelf life runs out. Trust me. I've been through this ancient and unshakable tradition.

I jumped in hoping to find love the right way, and instead I found chaos, cringe and comedy. And now, I'm looking for healing. Boys & Girls dives into every twist and turn of the arranged marriage carousel. The meat awkward, the neomisses, the heartbreak,

and let's not forget all the jokes. Listen to Boys & Girls on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, this is the story. I forgot what I was doing.

This is the story of Jack Gilbert Graham and Flight 629. All right. So Jack Gilbert Graham, let's calm Jack. It was born on-- That's Flight 629 now!

“I was like, do I ignore that airplane flying into this place?”

Do we have something like a black box? So if we get blown up by an airplane right now, that they can find it. Can you save that? I don't--

I don't think this would survive. I don't want it right now. Just in case. The apartment has a black box. That's all the apartments came with black boxes.

That's the thing. That's what you came here. That vintage ship painting? That's a black box. Oh, fuck you.

Well, so Jack is born on January 23rd, 1932 in Denver, Colorado. I was going to do this for Denver, and I'm like, I'm saving the shit out of this.

He's the second child of Daisy Graham

and her second husband. He-- Jack is born during the Great Depression. In 1937, his dad dies of pneumonia, which is with thing back in the Great Depression. It caused Daisy, Daisy, then,

his mother sent him to an orphanage because of their poverty. Super bummer. It was a thing back then. Yeah.

And sometimes they just did it like it was a pawn shop. Or it was like, stay here for a little while. That's right. You can't getcha. Baby farmers.

Right? We're not that cold. Baby farmers in England. No, I didn't know that. That makes sense.

Where you just kind of drop them off and they grow your baby. And then you can pick them back up. They grow your baby poorly. They grow your baby, but a lot of times what they would do is kill them.

And take the money. Yeah. They would take the money. Be like sure. Sure.

Or we'll totally take care of it and get money from the state or whatever. Oh, no. So, but then Daisy goes and married. And I had to quote this because it was so good. Well, healed.

Yeah. Daisy marries a richest fuck rancher named Earl King in 1941. She's now like fucking live in the highlight. Still doesn't get jack from the orphanage. Oh, yeah.

Well, that's her old life. She wants to follow that behind her. She doesn't want to like stress out rancher guy. In his mansion. He ran away several times to be with her from the orphanage.

But she always brought him back.

Which is like, oh, no. You're going to raise it. Oh, that's. So he would actually get to his mother's house and she would bring him back. The mansion.

That's like something an orphan would make up. She's like my mother lives nearby in a mansion. Right. And she must not just be able to come get me. So I'm going to make it easier for her and go there.

Right. And she's all no thanks. No. Then when Jack was eight years old, Daisy, she brought him home to the ranch to celebrate Christmas from New orphanage. Like, come on home from Christmas.

Buy some a pony and he's like, well, if you're buying me a pony, I'm clearly here to stay. Nope. Once Christmas was over, she takes him back to the fucking orphanage.

“Can you imagine living a lavish whatever week life?”

Will be a long life in the mansion that your mother gets to stay in. Your mother get a pony. And she, there was an older half sister. So I, but it doesn't say I wonder if she was actually living there. You know.

Also, why don't they just send them to boarding school? I have to be in an orphanage. Sure. Yeah. So the husband, the richest of our husband dies.

And she takes them money for inheritance becomes a successful business woman. And still doesn't fucking get him from New orphanage.

But you just tell me a super sad story of this week?

That's it. Okay. It's just all about orphans. Just take that up. Yeah.

Well, don't worry. Okay. Um, when he's 16, he forges papers. And he joins the Coast Guard.

“And, but his real age is found out in his discharge.”

Which is so sad. Where it's like he might have had a good life if they had, like he, he wanted to join the Coast Guard. And, and be part of the military. And they were like 16. Which back then was like 27.

In terms of like being on your own. You could probably drink already. I mean, but if it was still during, it's list is a little after the depression. Because maybe it's like no free lunches. Yeah.

Come back when you're 18. Yeah. You're on free lunch until. Yeah. Go get your free lunch with your orphanage.

Because maybe they would get in trouble for, you know, that's true. Dangerous. I don't know. Um, and 90.

So, finally, at 19, he forged for over 4 grand and checks.

Um, to finance a road trip that got him. And it ended up the 4th checks. Got him 2 months in a Texas jail for bootlegging and running a police road block at 100 miles per hour, which sounds like fucking fun. Yes, bootlegging.

Yeah. At this point, he's like, who gives a thought? Yeah. I'm going to go. Everyone in charge is crazy.

I'm going to live my life. Yeah. Um, he's extradited back to Denver.

“His mom pays his, his, uh, debt and probation is granted.”

So, he then goes to the University of Denver, which is there. Like he must be, have some, must be kind of smart. Yeah. Yeah. In a way, I couldn't get into a, you know, the university system here.

No. Oh, yeah. What had our overdrive? Tell us when we were in Boulder. Um, it was the night before school started.

For the Boulder University of Boulder. Uh, yes. I think so. Whatever.

Whatever the College of Boulder.

She's, which I clearly couldn't get into. She said to us. No, he, he said to us. Yeah. Well, Boulder's known.

Boulder College is known as a pretty easy to get into school. And send you anything that everyone there was. Which I was just like, okay. But feels so bad about going to community college and dropping out now. I went to sex state where they were like, please come in here.

Please come and be one of the 200,000 people that go to this. We need you more than you need us. Yeah. Oh, my God. I love it.

Go ahead. But we should add this.

“Then after our show, and we all went downtown to like, try to find a party.”

Yeah. And where people told us over and over again, don't go downtown. Yeah. You don't want to go down there. Because it was all college kids partying.

College kids just running a muck in the street. All of them lovely polite. Oh, yeah. My sister asked for directions at one point. And the boy was like practically walked them to the door of the place.

Oh, fine. Yeah. Yeah. So we're not listen, Boulder. College.

I mean, I just, I figured I'd put that out there too. Of Colorado. Um, that's very fair of you. I wasn't coming back. I mean, we can't call everybody stupid and just walk away.

You're right. Uh, do, do, do, do. Okay. So of, uh, tensed in the university meets his wife Gloria. Daisy, the mom, and Jack were estranged until 1954 when Jack was 22 years old.

And Daisy at this point is running a successful restaurant. And in May of 1955, she builds a crown aid. She builds crown a driver, which is what it was called for him to manage. She just like builds a place for him. So he'll have a fucking job.

That's the big, that's the big get back. That's the big story about the orphanage. Hey, we're going to abandon the shit out of you forever. Hey, well, then how about some middle management? Yeah.

How about clean up French fry grease every night? Good luck with that. And manage like roller skating waitresses who hate your guts. Love mommy. Love your mommy.

Fuck him. But Daisy and Jack, they still had a shitty relationship. They're often seen arguing. And in 1955, Daisy's restaurant, her other restaurant, has a gas explosion. It causes severe damage closes her restaurant for good.

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. The most interesting kind of explosion. Gas liners.

What I bring it up if it wasn't relevant? Probably not. Probably. Yeah. Maybe not.

Maybe not. We won't. We won't. Never know. There's a third choice.

And we don't know it yet. Um. Then. Okay. So Daisy at this point is 53-year-old widow.

53 at that point is fucking oldest shit. Yes, she's like, right. Right for the ill lady. Yeah, done for. You retire already.

Um, so. So she tells Jack. Jack's 23 at this point. He's got a wife. They have a baby.

He's like, made good. And made a family and works for his mother. Like, he's clearly trying to fucking play ball. You put make her want him still. You know.

And she's like, oh, by the way, the holidays coming up. Even though you have a new baby. I'm going to go instead. Go to Alaska and visit your older sister. Oh, my god.

I hate her. It's the people close to you. The ones that can hurt you the most.

And they do. And why do we let them? Because you just, that's life. That's like, it's a series of insults and injuries. Yeah.

And you trying to fix yourself so that you fit into what they are. Want from you, even though they have no fucking clue what they want from you. Because they're broken too. And then you realize you fixed yourself for yourself. And you drive through a fucking police roadblock.

Like, this is mine.

“Remember that's my movement in your life.”

You have fun. That's right. You're drinking fucking shitty bathtub, Jen. Yes. You're hugging.

The best life. You're just going for it. Yeah. And then in Texas of all places, which had to be fun. Yes.

Go watch everyone go watch Paper Moon. I bet that's what his life was like. That movie is so amazing. Or Friday night lights. Oh, yeah.

They weren't but lagging in that movie. Where they could have been. There was a one season where the brother stole copper wiring. There was one season where they had. What's it called?

Prohibition. What? What did you say? I just said bought. Well.

They took some pot. They took a pot. That that. Okay. And that.

And that is they say was the final. Final fucking straw for him. Yeah. And I was like, or maybe it was the pony years and years ago that was the final straw and he just like hadn't planned it yet.

That it's the straw went in and then it was it just waited. It was benign until it became willing. Yeah. It just got heavier over the years. Okay.

November 1st, 1955. Jack's like, okay. You want to go to Alaska? Great. Let me take you to the airport.

Oh. I'll take you to the airport to go to Alaska. It's so loaded because I just was like. It's literally loaded. It.

Oh. All right. I'm gonna let you go. Just go into the airport by itself. Like the morning we were leaving for our trip.

You were like, come to my house.

“If you want to ride with us, come to my house.”

We're leaving at 730. Did it. Then I was just like, I am so stressed. And now I'm adding another thing to be stressed. Is there waiting for me?

Yes. And I'm going to screw this up. There's no way I'm going to be on top. No. I think it's better that you.

Not that you would have done anything wrong. You were there with exact same time as us. It's that thing of we were. Which I think we did very well with. The anxiety of travel.

Oh my god. We had such a good. Friendship trip. It was so fun. It was so good.

We had the best Steven. Thank you for being a kitten in the. In the group. It was like just Steven. Steven.

They got mad when Steven said. But it's like yeah, we're I think we're both aware. But also it's that thing of like just travel. Exiety. Not knowing things.

Walking up.

You never know what the fuck you're doing.

Or where you're supposed to be. Which is great. We're going to do this. We're going to do this. And we're going to do this.

And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this.

And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this.

And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this.

And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And we love you.

You're never going to listen to this podcast. He's not rock. He doesn't. He was so punk rock. Yeah.

He was the best. He's the best.

I want him to always travel with us.

Okay. So sorry. I'm just setting the tables. I now have travel anxiety. Just hearing.

Travel anxiety sucks. Can you? And sitting at the airport before you get on your plane is a fucking like cigarette machine. That instead of cigarettes. So life insurance.

What? For the floor. You get on the plane. And swear to fucking God. This was a thing until the 80s.

So you go in there. And in this case, Jack puts in a dollar 50. And gets out a life insurance policy for his mother. Is about to fly to Alaska for 37,500 dollars. Which at that time is, this time, it would be almost $350,000.

And it's just like good luck. Like everyone just bought something. It was like, oh, yeah. It's so perfect. It's so perfect.

If he has any bad intentions. He didn't fucking put that machine there. Well, he's just using it. Everyone's like, it's a thing of like, oh, better do it for good luck though. You know what I mean?

Yeah, of course, when I don't do it, it's going to.

It's like having your numbers on relatt, where it's like you always do 13.

Yeah. But like this one time, it's like, well, but if 13 comes up. So I just always put it on 13. Same with renting a car. Yeah.

I did that.

“Where was like, why did you bring a frontal insurance dude?”

Because now I have to get it. Yep. All right. Okay. Right.

So I think they did away with that on purpose because it's terrifying to everyone. That's terrifying. It also, it opens the door to people who should not be able to just buy life insurance policies. Either in yon, but also don't even run yon.

I've never heard that, but I know what you meant.

It didn't really apply to what I was saying, but it's like here and there. But no, I know. But I want to now see all those machines that they made in the 50s when they were like,

“making like life is going to be easier because we have these machines.”

I have like a photo, like a drawing of like a happy family on the way to the, walk them to the, you know, because you'd walk on the tarmac. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But we could find it. I could find one in like American pickers. You know that show. It makes sure it's on. I bet they have.

They must have kept them. Can I bet there's some that have like, it's some mechanic. They're playing mechanic. They were closing down that and they, he took it home because he's a hoarder. And it still has the papers.

You would get, oh, could you imagine? Yes. I need that for the podcast law. It's such a good idea.

Yeah, you need to put that up there.

Can someone please bring us that? Actually, we, yeah. Okay. It's just around the same time as auto maps, which are the most hilarious. They're when cafeterias.

They pretended to be automated. But it was just people putting dishes into those. You like the press?

“It's like pressing D7 and it's like a hand coming out and handing you.”

Like the cream corner. It's just there. Yeah. So you just have a bunch of plates. Like one of my, one of my time travel like plans is I would go to an auto max.

I love cafeterias more than anything. Yes. A thousand percent. Yeah. I would do one of these.

One of me time travel. And then we're going to go shopping at fucking make company. Oh, okay. When they run the things like, you know, that they used to run the money along wires up there.

Yeah. They would drop it down. Yeah. So we like. Anyway, okay.

But I want dresses. Yes. You can go do that. Well, I go look at the dresses. And girls go ahead.

Okay. Okay. Well, here's where. It gets crazy. Did it.

Okay. Before. Okay. Here's what happened. Wait.

Let's go back to before. Wait. No.

“Jackson's todayzy that he left a surprise Christmas gift in her suitcase.”

Spoiler alert. It wasn't a puppy. I wrote that. So it's kind of corny. Mm-hmm.

Instead. And Daisy's large tan Samsonite suitcase. Alongside the photo album of Jack and Gloria is wedding that Daisy was going to show to her daughter in Alaska. He had placed a neat bundle of explosives.

Less than an hour after the flight took off, the United Airlines flight became the first confirmed sabotage of a commercial aircraft in the United States when it exploded mid-air.

Oh. Have you not seen this? Oh, my god. A crash into farmland and sugar beet fields near Longmont, Colorado and Daisy and the 43 other passengers and crew all died. Oh, God.

The youngest passenger was 13-month-old James Fitzpatrick the second. The eldest was 81-year-old Laila McClain. Five children lost both their parents in the crash. Pregnant 22-year-old Carol Bynum and her husband both died. It was the worst mass murder in US history at the time and remains the worst in Colorado.

And was one of the largest investigations in at the FBI history. Oh, my God. I know. The FBI obtained. So can I really quickly, I just want to say also, and I know that's a fucking side of our nation over here.

But I just finished what's weird about this that I was planning on doing this. And then I didn't realize until today when I finished this audiobook I've been listening to, that is so fucking good. But it's about a plain crash that sabotage that goes the whole story. You don't find out what happened until the very end. And in my car at like two o'clock today, I found out and I almost had a pullover because that was crying.

Wow. Was it true story? No, no. It's called Before the Fall by Noah Holly, H.A.W. L.E.Y.

It was spoiler alert. What did I say? Did you said what the ending was? What did I say? You said that it was the explosion.

Oh, no. It's not an explosion, though. It's just a plain crash. Oh, okay. That's not.

No, no, no. So the explosion is a part of it. It's a plain crash that they have to then. So I'm back to talk about how they figured out what had happened on the in the plain crash by putting it in the hanger. So this same kind of thing happened while they had a piece together to figure out what happened in the plain crash.

And they do it by interviews and then going back to the day of the crash and who did what and what happened. And all the characters are really good. It's not an explosion. Okay. That's a spoiler alert.

I thought that's what you were saying. I don't know why. I just didn't even the book. It's called Before the Fall. And the audiobook is great.

The reader is really good. You know, it's hard to find that. That name sounds familiar. Noah Holly. I bet he did something really cool.

I feel like it's the guy that I could be wrong. But that might be the guy that does that does.

Yes. Really? Yes. Okay, coming back. Karen just fucking.

Oh my god. Your memory is bananas. Is it though?

Your memory of certain ways it is.

So Noah Holly. Is it Holly?

“Yeah, Holly, AJW, L. E. Y. But he's not he does a lot of things.”

But he's the reason that fucking Fargo series is. So magical because it's being written. It's a novelist writing a TV show. So it's like. I have pictures.

Yeah. Well, now I'm even more proud of myself for finding this fucking book. Nice. He's got other ones here. So I'm going to download all of them.

Yeah. Great audiobook. Which sometimes I'll be like, don't get the audiobook. Read the book. It's better.

And it's just weird that I'm doing the story at the same time. Is this because I literally, I don't cry at books and movies. And I almost had to pull over because I was just like so taken aback. Awesome. I love a good author.

Like someone that's really does it, right? I'm so happy that we put that together. Okay.

“So the FBI obtained use of a nearby barn.”

They reassembled the fragments of the airplane collective from the site. And they were able to determine that that the explosive research was used.

Which is so incredible to me that a flight of playing can blow up and crash.

And they can still put it together and figure out what happened. They put it together like a huge puzzle. It's incredible. It's crazy. Like those people must be so smart.

They went, yeah. I'm not going to say it. I'm done with that. I'm done with folder. And then they, and they determined that in which piece of luggage it had come.

Oh, fuck. Yeah. Like it went off in that piece of luggage and they figured out what piece of luggage it came from. And they figured out what stays. These 10 stamps and I.

All right. They so they started looking into her family and looked into Jack when they found out about his criminal past with the bootlegging shit.

They also determined that Daisy's restaurant had been damaged by, quote, a suspicious explosion as well.

And that Jack had received the insurance settlements, which is like, dude, change her ammo a little bit. Yeah. You know what I mean? Don't keep exploding things.

Yeah. Locals also suspected Jack of deliberate causing his new pickup truck to be stuck by, to be stuck struck by a train that year for insurance money. So this guy was like after insurance money and into explosions. They also found that when she died a large part of Daisy's estate would go to

Jack so insurance money again. Yeah.

“After a few days of questioning, Jack said, okay, where do you want me to start?”

And then in great detail, he described building and planting the bomb that killed his mother and 43 others on flight 629. It was constructed of 25 sticks of dynamite, a sixfold battery, two electric primer caps in case one of them failed. And a timer set to detonate in about 90 minutes after he planted it or turned it on. He was sitting in an electronic shop for just two weeks.

He had given Jack all the expertise he needed to build the bomb. So this guy must have been fucking smart. Yeah. I then he said, I then took the sack of dynamite with the battery and time are attached and placed it in my mother's large suitcase. Based on all the evidence found a Jack's house.

He was arrested, tried to sabotage and later that was changed to murder. After they erect arrest, some newspaper people, radio station people were able to sneak cameras and recording into the jail and Jack told them. I loved my mother very much. She meant a lot to me. It's very hard for me to tell exactly how I feel.

She left so much of herself behind, which I'm like, no, she fucking didn't did. I'm in. Is that insensitive? It's insane of him to say. Yeah.

It's super bizarre. I think he must have not had our emotions, our feelings that we have. I don't want to call on the sociopath because people are like, that's not really. Well, it may or may not apply, but he's definitely was insanely damaged and abused as a child. Yeah.

Yeah. The emotional attachments you have are broken. Yeah. At some point. His mother repeatedly rejected him.

There's some serial killers that it only happens once and they still don't believe him. He didn't love her. It could mean that he loved her more. Yeah. In a way that we don't feel love, but that feels like love to someone else.

Well, it's all he knew. Yeah. I mean, he lived in an orphanage. He had that thing of like, if you don't have emotional attachments to not just your parents, but to like a caregiver as a young child,

you can't have those to anyone. All right. Really hard to change that. That's right.

Yeah.

“But he's also a murderer and murdered a bunch of innocent people.”

I mean, the plan of that, the coldness of the plan of revenge on his mom,

but then just like total devastation on all these other people. So many families. It's so evil. Yeah. Um, when asked why he had signed the confession and confessed,

he said that the FBI threatened to point out, um, inconsistencies and statements made by his wife Gloria, that he wanted to keep her out of it. He just, like, didn't want her to have anything to do with it. So he was like, I'm in a confess.

So she doesn't, you know, maybe she was lying for him. Maybe she was covering for him. Um, he also told prison doctors that he realized he said, he realized that there were about 50 or 60 people carried on the plane, but, and, but the number of people to be killed made no difference to me.

It could have been a thousand when their times come. When their time comes, there's nothing they can do about it. It's almost like he's God. Yeah. And their time, and clearly, when really he had just decided.

Yeah. Yeah.

“He's pretending that that was he was some kind of like,”

the arbiter of fate or some rain or just like no dude. You've just, yeah. Yeah.

The trial resulted in Colorado becoming the first state to officially sanction the use of television cameras

to broadcast criminal trials. No federal statute at the time on the books that made it a crime to blow up an airplane because it was so fucking new. Um, and that led directly to federal laws criminalizing airline sabotage and the formation of the federal aviation administration.

At the time, though, on the day of Jack's confession, they wanted a quickly prosecute Jack. Simple as possible way was premeditated murder of a single victim, his mother. So none of the other victims they couldn't, they didn't try him for those. Despite the number of victims, he's charged with only one kind of first-degree murder.

He were candid as confession. Um, but because of all the evidence, he was found guilty. Attempted suicide. And on May 5th, 1956, he was convicted of the death of the murder sentenced to the executed in the gas chamber in January of 1957.

And before his execution, he said about the bombing. As far as feeling remorse for these people, I don't. I can't help it. Everybody pays their way and takes their chances. That's just the way it goes.

And if out his mother's murder, he said, "I want it." I watched her go off at the last time, when she was getting on the plane. I felt happier than I'd ever felt before in my life. Dude. And that's fucking our friend, Jack Gilbert Graham, and Flight 629.

I like in those kind of quotes where you can really, it really almost surmises the insanity of the person. Yeah. Where it's like, you are totally cut off from empathy. You don't give a fuck about anybody, but you're revenge.

You're not even in a way of like, you're about to die. It doesn't matter. Apologize to the family is, even if you don't fucking mean it. Like, you can't even give them some kind of... No, because he doesn't care.

He doesn't care. He doesn't have a connection to care about the family. It's impossible for us to understand.

“Well, and also it's, but the thing I think it's interesting”

is like, family is the source of his insanity or his damage. So he doesn't care about those families.

He's just he never had a family.

He's like, he's probably more mad that they had families. He's probably thinking that they feel the same way about their families. He doesn't know what it's like to feel any feelings about your family. Yeah, only just negative or shitty or like shit, man. Oh, and go look him up.

Go look at his photo. He looks like if our friend Matt Bronger was playing the Yoko with the widow's peak. Oh, like, grease back here. Yeah, our friend, comedian Matt Bronger playing a role as a Yoko. Nice.

Yeah. Well, that was good. Thank you. Thank you. It's fun to base them on TV shows.

Yeah. You're talking right. Very hard work gets done for you. Yeah. And it's just a retail.

Dude, that's a set up. I do the opposite. Stupid thing where I'm like, I'm going to do this hard one. And then it's like, it's so hard that nobody's ever made a documentary about it. Except for some fucking person who has like,

they're so, you look on YouTube for your murder and there's just these people. And I don't want to insult other people, but I am. They make these like story. They tell the story on video with pictures and things like that. But it's a computer voice.

Yeah. And then the murder went, it's so weird. Well, I feel like it might be a lot of there's like students. It feels to me like students that have to do a presentation for our class. Yeah.

So something because there's often times the wording is very odd. But it's almost like people were trying to sound news person.

But it's that point. It's the. It's the automated choice.

“Which I'm like, just be any human kind of read.”

The Wikipedia page. It doesn't matter. Someone's going to like your voice. Just read it. Maybe I have a weird high voice.

Maybe. Or a strangely low voice. Well, maybe. I mean, I have a fucking list. And what's it called?

Autotune? No. What's it called when you when you have like the thing or you don't even. Oh, you're from California. Yeah.

I've a list been an auto tune.

I've never had a problem with the live voice.

The entire time was auto tune. It would be tough. It would be tough. It would be hard. It would be tough to keep it natural.

If when. Okay. We're back. Are there updates for the story? No updates.

“Although we were just talking about how the awesome TV show”

A crime to remember did this story. So go look that out. It was really well done. Just so you guys know that 37,500 Life insurance policy that Jack took out on his mother would be worth today.

453,000 dollars plus. Wow. Which is a lot of money. And also our episode title came from the story. Two Karen says that selling insurance at the airport

opens the door to people who shouldn't be buying life insurance policies. Hither and Yon. Yeah. I've never heard before. I don't care.

I'm going to go ahead and throw some old people talking. I love it. At any chance I get. I love it. Let's go see a picture after the.

It's a picture. All right.

“Let's get in the Karen's fucking story about son of Sam.”

In 2023, a story gripped the UK of looking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Leppi.

Lucy Leppi has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the full story? A moment you look at the whole picture the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox and in the new podcast doubt the case of Lucy Leppi. We follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it.

To ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Leppi was. No voicing of any skepticism are doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to doubt the case of Lucy Leppi on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Clayton Eckard and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan.

He became the first bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected.

The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show? Made even bigger headlines. It began as a one night stand and ended in a courtroom with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal.

The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agreed to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped.

This season, an epic battle of he said she said and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. I'm done nothing to get pregnant by the f***** Brassler. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Ever feel like you're being chased by the marriage police.

Welcome to Boys & Girls. The podcast by dating isn't dating.

A ranged marriage is basically a reality show.

Except the contestants are strangers and your entire family is judging. You're sipping coffee with one maybe, grabbing dinner with another and praying your carmy can or Barbie appears before your shelf life runs out. Trust me, I've been through this ancient and unshakable tradition. I jumped in hoping to find love the right way and instead I found chaos, cringe and comedy.

And now I'm looking for healing. Boys & Girls dives into every twist and turn of the arranged marriage carousel. The meat awkward, the neomisses, the heartbreak and let's not forget all the jokes. Listen to Boys & Girls on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, yeah, now I gotta be told. Sorry, I'll go first because I'm gonna sit back.

I know. I can be told a story and you just get to relax.

Let me hear your process. Would you want to go behind the scenes? I do.

And just go behind the music for a second.

I do. Welcome. Pop up video time. I wanted to do a supernatural murder. Ooh, but that's like a made-up thing.

“Essentially. Yeah, but that's what I wanted. I just wanted to be a little bit of a planet a little bit.”

And so I eventually found the story of a man named Carl Proett who found this was like in the 30s. He found his wife and bed with another man. He strangles her with a rusty chain. Then he commits suicide. The family has him buried far away.

I wrote this whole fucking thing up until I found. Very far away. And then a kid, people start noticing that there are rings appearing on his gravestone. Rings, rings, and concentric rings that are linked. Like a chase, like a chain.

So a bunch of kids are playing in the cemetery and they, the boy throws a rock at the headstone. Great place to play, by the way. Yeah, that's sort of a good times arc. If throws a rock at the headstone, chipset, they all go to ride their bikes home. He falls off his bike and the bike chain wraps around the neck and strangles him.

All right. So when the mother finds out and hears all the town gossip of it was because he He desecrated the heads don't have the killer of the chain killer. And so she goes down with an axe to take the headstone apart. The next day she's thrown hanging in her own clothes line.

“Oh my goodness. So then it basically goes on and on.”

And I'm like, this is the best. Yeah. This is going to be amazing. I get to the end of the article and the person who wrote the article begins to deconstruct Ghost Stories in America.

And oh, oh, this is fake like Carl Proot never existed.

Right. This person never existed. You can't find any of these people in any public record. And then I had to start over. I was really mad because it was so perfect.

And yet it was such a creepy posture like. Oh, and then the then these people every single thing was someone strangle with the chain. Yeah. If they tried to touch that zone. Jesus, I don't know how I don't know how you can find a murder that gets you out of the murder world.

Well, no, you can't. I'm just I don't even know what I'm doing. So then I went all the way and then I'm doing son of Sam. Oh, that was not the direction I thought was going to happen. I just fucking turned that car around.

“You know why I'm you know, I understand it's because he doesn't mutilate anyone.”

That's right. It's almost like he listen, murder is murder and it's fucking horrible and awful. And son of Sam is a monster. But when you don't have to talk about someone when he is for us. I don't mean like they're certain murders.

But when we don't have to talk about women getting their boobs cut off. Yes. And being raped and savage much I'm doing right now. It's almost like a relief. It is because it's so qualifies and he's very famous and everybody knows who he is.

But he did. He was on a murder spree in the 70s that was so strangely distant and odd disconnected. It's totally disconnected and yet very specific. Yeah, it was like I don't know if a lot of people know this. I certainly didn't before I started reading about it.

He he only shot women with long dark hair. No, I didn't know that. I did neither. He's a total fucking Ted Bundy in that style. So it's just interesting.

Like it's it's a it's definitely a thing where you can dip in but you don't have to go into it. There's not even a stab which which is there. Let me stop you. Okay. You know what?

What did you do? You're murdered. I'll stop. Because that's what's interesting. So he also was a product of an illicit affair.

And his mother gave him away. Right after he was born to a couple named Pearl and Nathan Berkowitz who lived in the Bronx. And he was a troubled youth neighbor. Say he was a bully. He was he was an asshole.

He was really spoiled. He was really difficult. And he from an early age began engaging in petty lyrsony and arson. Arson are son are right. So there's not I couldn't find anything.

I actually looked it up specifically.

I've like did something happen to him that he never talked about.

But his mother died of breast cancer when he was 14. That's it man. That's got to be a huge. Well, shock. Then his father remarries.

He doesn't like his new step mother. So in 1971 when he's 18 he joins the army. And he served for four years. He's given an honorary discharge in 1974. And while he's serving in the army, he has his first and only sexual encounter with sex worker.

And the psychiatrist or whoever say that after that whoever word on the street was that because of that.

Um, experience, specific experience. He became enraged with women. Which we know can't be true.

“Like you had that boiling down somewhere ready to burst.”

It's not like, oh, great with women. And then you're like, oh, shit crabs. No exactly right. Well, yeah, and that's probably not crabs. No.

Shit crabs. I hate women. It's already a problem. He's one of those people that yeah, if you're a bully that doesn't get along. And as an asshole, everybody, you're not also a lady killer.

Right. Probably not. Right. I just love that they can't blame it on this one. Like, they're blaming it on the woman.

Right. Which is just like, of course. It's not also when he gets out of the army who looks up as birth mother and is birth mother explains how she gave him away because he was illegitimate. A forensic anthropologist, Elliot Layton described this as the primary crisis of his life.

“He was getting out that he was an illegitimate child that his father didn't want him shattered his sense of identity on top of that the old V.D.”

No crabs. That he started a spate of arson fires in the early 70s that he actually, well, we can talk about this later.

But that was his first crime was arson and he would go and light these fires all over the Bronx and and the surrounding area.

It's only I know what that what cities that men happen. Let's call that we kept it over and like, in his in the Bronx area and burrows, other burrows and other he burrows. Brooklyn. Let's say Brooklyn there's Queens. There's Queens and Queens comes up quite a bit in this.

Did he go to Long Island? I don't know. I doubt he would make that drive. Okay. He did become a male man.

So Christmas of 1975, he steps to women with a hunting night on the streets of New York City. Jesus. But they fight back. This was Christmas evening. They fight back and he flees the scene.

They're not killed. Wow.

“That's his first attempt and that's when he switches over to a 44 caliber bulldog snub nose shotgun.”

Miller, not a handgun. A gun.

It's a 44 caliber gun that he uses for the rest of his time.

So July 29, 1976, this is in Pelham Bay the Bronx. One 10 a.m. and Donna Loria, who's 18 and Jody Valente's 19, are sitting in Jody Valente's car. Outside Donna Loria's apartment and they're talking about the night they just spent at Pete's trees, which was the local disco. Oh, Pete's trees. Oh, this is if you see the movie.

Some of the same, the Spike Lee movie. Starting John Lake was on. It's actually really hilarious and great because disco exploded like in this period of time. And so, you know, around New York City, people were just at discos every night. And that lifestyle was like a big deal.

It's like it's just clubbing. Yes, it was disco music. It's clubbing with polyester. Oh, man. I'm so glad.

I hope when we go back and time, we don't end up there. I mean, I can feather my hair. So I feel okay. I'd be probably be a good, a good disco queen. I might be good, but I don't want to show my arms.

And that's a big, that's a big, big problem at the disco. I hate disco music and cocaine. So I feel like I just feel like I just feel like in like sitting in the corner, being like, "Can we go or such opposites?" I don't know.

Can we not dive bar, please? Okay. So they were at Pete's trees. They're sitting in the car talking about it. Jody opens the car door to get out to walk up to her house and sees a man walking really fast toward the car.

That's so scary. A man walking fast towards you is like just punch at one in the morning. At one in the morning. Right outside your house. Punch.

He pulls a 44 caliber handgun out of the paper bag, nails down, and fires five times into the car. Donna Loria was hit in the neck and killed instantly. Jody Blunt. He was hit in the thigh. And then she leaned on the horn and the attacker turned and walked quickly away, which is also creepy.

Yeah, that you don't run. You know not to run because it's suspicious. Yeah. You're just walk quickly away. Like, isn't your business is done here?

Okay. So Jody describes him as a white male in his 30s with a fair complexion about five nine way 160 pounds. Short, dark, curly hair in the quote, "Mod style." Good for her for knowing all that like remembering all these details.

So also, Loria's father also saw him and told the police a similar looking man was sitting in a yellow compact car. How old night he had been cruising the area before the shooting. And several neighbors actually saw a man in a yellow car cruising the area.

the old Italian Irish combination, inspired 18.

“They were talking outside Keenan's house.”

When according to Keenan, it felt like the car exploded. So what had happened was that car was fired on five times. DeNaro, Carl DeNaro was in the driver seat, puts it into driving speeds away. And only later do they realize he's been shot in the head. Oh my god.

He ended up getting he survived. Holy shit. He ended up having to get a plate in this head just to replace the skull. The part of his skull that was black. Wow.

The police did not attack the not link this attack to the Lori of the lentil attack, because they were in two different precincts. So they were just separate shootings. Yeah, right. Crazy.

Yeah. But I mean, this was New York in the late 70s. So there was tons of crying. Yeah, that's true. But Rosemary Keenan's father was a New York city.

“I can't remember if his detective or police officer.”

But basically, once the daughter of one of their own, they turned up the intensity

on this specific investigation. She didn't die. She didn't die. It neither of them died. But they couldn't.

They didn't have that much evidence. There wasn't a lot to go on. Right. So a month later, Donna DeMassie and Joanne Lamino, I just walked home from a movie theater. And they were talking on Joanne's front porch.

And they see a man in Army 15 approaching them. And I guess that's like, yeah, no, I'm so it's not that weird. I mean, not really. But here's what's weird. But it's not.

Okay. He's asking for directions in a high pitch. Before he finished it. So he starts asking a question.

“Before he finishes the sentence, he pulls out the gun and shoots both of them.”

Donna was shot in neck. But recovered. Joanne's hitting a spine. And she's paralyzed. A neighbor claims to have seen a blonde man running away from the scene, clutching a gun.

Mm-hmm. Okay. So January 30th, 1977, this is at the Forest Hills Long Island Railroad Station in Queens. At 2.40 in the morning. Christina front and her fiance John Deal had just seen Rocky.

And they were about to go to a disco. It's at a dance hall in Wikipedia. But I would assume that means a disco. Yeah. And as they're sitting in the car, three gun shots.

There's someone shoots into the car three times. In a panic, Deal drives away. He suffered minor superficial injuries. But Christina front was shot. Friend was shot twice.

And died several hours later in the hospital. Neither of them saw their attacker.

So now the police make their first public acknowledgement that the front deal shooting was similar to the other incidents.

And all of the crimes could be associated. Because all of the victims had been struck with 44 caliber bullets. The shootings seemed to target young women with long black hair. And the police announced that they were looking for multiple suspects. Can you imagine, like, let's say that happened right now in LA.

If that was going on, I wouldn't want to leave the house. Do you know that actually, it wasn't here. But it was a little while later after a couple more of these murders. When they when this, that fact of that it was women with long dark hair. There was a rush on women getting their hair cut really short like Dorothy Hamill and died lighter.

And that's why that trend. I mean, like that's in New York City. The all women got their hair cut and died. And they said that there was a shortage of wigs at beauty supply stores. Because everyone was just going batch it.

Like in one day once they made that announcement, everyone got their hair cut. Yeah. I love that idea. Okay. So March 8th, Columbia College, still 1977 at 7.30 in the evening.

Virginia. Vokshir. Vokshir Richian. Walks home from her classes at Columbia. A man walks toward her.

And when he gets close, he pulls out a gun and fires into her face. She put up her books to protect herself. But she was killed in sleep. And moments later, a neighbor, one of her neighbors rounds the corner. He hears the gunshots.

And then he nearly collides with the person who just he described as a short husky boy. It's 16 to 18. Cleanstave and wearing a sweater and a watch cap sprinting away from the scene. And other neighbors, matching that same description, reported a teenager loitering in the area for about an hour before the shooting. In the following days, the media report police claims that this quote,

There are no direct witnesses to her murder.

“And she lived about a block away from where Christine frowned and her fiance John Deel were shot.”

March 10th, 1977, NYPD holds a press conference stating that the weapon used in Virginia. Vogue's shirt, chariens. Vogue's shirt, richy ends. I think is. Vogue's shirt, richy ends, murder is also a 44 bill dog.

The same weapon used in all the other shootings. And of course, this whole story, the New York Daily News and the post go crazy on the daily. It's just constant, constant page. And what's the called fear mongering? Well, he should be afraid, but yes.

Well, I mean, they were finally justified.

It also went international. They were naming their name in the Wikipedia article, like all the, you know, the Vatican had an article about the Vatican newspaper, whatever. So April 17th, this is a month later, basically, in the Bronx. It's 3 a.m., in Valentina Suryani, who's 18, and Alexander Esau, who's 20,

are sitting in Valentina's car kissing. And each one is shot twice. Suryani died instantly. Esau died a few hours later in the hospital. And it says again, it's a 44.

“And they were only parked a few blocks away from the loria of the lentil shooting.”

So then, at the crime scene, they find a handwritten letter. And it's from the killer. And it's addressed to police captain Joseph Burrelli. And this is where the son named son of Sam comes from. It's no letter.

Okay.

So, basically, it reads, I'll do, I'm just going to do pieces because it's really long.

It starts out, I am deeply hurt by your calling me a woman, Hater. I am not. But I am a monster. I am the son of Sam. I am a little brat.

When Father Sam gets drunk, he gets mean. He beats his family. Sometimes he ties me up to the back of the house. Other times he locks me in the garage. Sam loves to drink blood.

Go out and kill commands, Father Sam, behind our house some rest. I don't know this at all. It's just fucking crazy nonsense. But it ends like this. I want to make love to the world.

I love people. I don't belong on earth. Return me to Yahoo's. Father!

To the people of Queens, I love you.

“And I want to wish all of you a happy Easter.”

But shit! May God bless you in this life. And in the next. And for now, I say goodbye and good night. Police, let me haunt you with these words.

I'll be back. I'll be back. To be interpreted as. Bang, bang, bang, bang. You're as in murder, Mr. Monster.

So that is I can't even. Yeah, it's nuts. That was like even scarier to them. That were like, oh, we're not. This isn't a calculated person.

This is a fucking lunatic. How are we going to track down a lunatic? Because you can't use logic. That's right. Also, yeah, that wasn't nailed.

It was left in the murder scene. So it's somebody that kills people and then drops something intentionally. I love it. She's them. Yeah.

She's us. So several psychiatrists are consulted. And there's a psychological profile drawn up based on this letter. And he's described as neurotic. Probably suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.

Who believes himself should be the victim of demonic possession. So May 30, 1977. And so at that time, the daily news had a columnist. It was a very famous man named Jimmy Brezlin. He was like super famous in New York.

A lot of people out, not that many people outside know him. But he was like, he was like one of those like tough, you know, reporters of New York. That I was, you know, hard boiled. He was, I would call him hard boiled. Yeah.

Oh, someone to call me hard boiled one day. They will, they will. So the son of Sam sends Jimmy Brezlin a letter. Oh, shit. And on the back of the envelope, he wrote, the phrases, blood and family, darkness and death,

absolute depravity, and just 44 with a dot in front of him. So like 44 calmer. Mm-hmm. And then I'll just read you how it starts because it's, it's just more bladder. But it starts, hello from the gutters of NYC, which are filled with dog manure, vomit,

stale wine, urine, and blood. I'm going to see wrong. I know he's fucking dead on. It's summertime. So he's probably very frustrated.

Right. Hello from the sewers of NYC, which swallow up these delicacies when they are watched away. Jesus. By the sweeper trucks, hello from the cracks in the sidewalks of NYC and from all the ants that dwell in these cracks and feed in the dried blood of the dead that is settled into these cracks.

Is it? JB, I'm just dropping you a line to let you know that I appreciate your interest in those recent and horrendous 44 caliber killings. I also want to tell you that I read your column daily and I find it quite informative. Tell me, Jim, what will you have for July 29th?

Mm-hmm. Oh, so this one he seems smart. Right. Almost as if he might be putting on an ass. Sure.

Of some kind. Um, okay. So the daily news publishes this letter a week after they get it with a column from Jimmy Brezlin urging the killer to surrender himself. And this article made that day's paper, the highest selling addition of the daily news ever.

They sold more than 1.1 million.

Wow. Um. Oh, and it's after that that with Jimmy Brezlin's column, this is when all the women get their hair cut. Which I just want to tell you. That's in the movie, too.

Yeah. And it's hilarious. I don't want to come out, but I don't remember it, man. It's good. I liked it.

“I just remember that from Ted Bundy, too.”

Like, didn't have a bunch of girls. Yes. Who had the same haircut? Hell, yeah. Change that fucking shit out.

I mean, hey, highlights, everybody. Yeah. How about a highlight? Bob. Yeah.

All right. I also love some of a summer of Sam the movie because it's almost entirely focused on disco. Yeah. The murders almost seem like an afternoon. The murders almost seem like they're howling disco.

You know, Jimmy. Like disco is a response to the murders. That's right. Or disco is because the murders are creating disco. Listen, Sean, like I said, though, is that just a dream. Listen.

Did you want to finish that? Look. Okay. Look. No.

No, that's it. I interrupted you to them saying nothing. Okay. And now we're in June 26, 1977. This is a Bayside Queen's.

“So yeah, it's like, for people, I am from California.”

So when we talk about all these different parts of the all these different burrows in New York. Queens is a burrow. Bayside is a part of Queens. Okay. Right.

Right. I mean, I made it. The Bronx is a burrow. And then the part of the Bronx that I was talking about for us. For us.

It's a long island. It's like the upper east side is part of Manhattan. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Manhattan is a burrow. And then the upper east side part of that burrow Williamsburg is a

like, let's go on for an hour and just say never heard.

I'm going to save the wrong thing for sure here. And all it can picture the people I know who live in New York being very mad at me. Well, so then better than us. Also, maybe I'm doing it for attention. Maybe I want you to be mad at me.

Yeah. Maybe I like it. All right. The morning of June 26, 1977. It's three.

“Judy Placito and Salupo, which that I think Salupo might have been the main character in some”

of Sam. Oh, it just sounds familiar. Okay. But I could be making it up. No, I trust you on name recognition.

This is where that all falls apart. Yeah. Okay. They have just left the LFS disco. And they're sitting in the car.

And the cars hit by three gun. And a gun shot blast. So Judy, Salupo is wounded in the right forearm. Judy Placito is shot in the right temple in the shoulder and in the back of the neck. They both survived.

Which is incredible. And these people who are surviving these mortal up close gun. Yeah. Yeah. It's bananas.

It's crazy. So, Salupo tells the police. They had just been discussing the case of son of Sam right before. Oh, yeah. The gun shots hit.

Okay. So about a month later. It's July 31, 1977. Stacey Moscoets. Who doesn't know?

Stacey Moscoets.

And the mean like the second I read that name.

I was like, I went to junior high, whatever. So Stacey and her boyfriend Bobby Vielante are taking a walk in the park late at night. Very brave. But they go back to their car when they see a man watching them. Oh, no.

But then when they get back into the car, they were so into each other. They start making out. So they don't leave right away. They're kissing in the car when they're hit by bullets. Stacey Moscoets was shot once in the head.

Bobby Vielante had been shot twice in the face. Stacey was killed while Bobby Vielante would survive. But he lost most of his vision. He survived. She's from being shot in the head.

So these people on the fucking burrows have some. Survivality and differential. I mean it's the New York City baby. Yeah. Okay.

So this is the shooting that brings out the most witnesses of any of the other son of Sam murders. There was actually a direct eyewitness. So during the shooting 19-year-old Tommy Xeno was parked three cars down.

And the moment before the shooting Xeno cut peripheral glamps of the shooters approach.

“And then happened to glance in his rear view mirror just in time to see the actual shooting.”

Oh my god. He clearly saw the perpetrator for several seconds due to a bright street light in the full moon. And later described him as being 25 to 30 years old. Five foot seven to five foot nine inches with shaggy hair that was dark blonde or light brown. But he said that the shooters hair looked like a wig.

So about a minute after the shooting a woman in her boyfriend's car on the other side of the park saw a white male. Uh, wearing a light colored sheep nylon wig, sprinting out of the park and get into a small and he got into a small light colored car that drove away. And she said he looked just like he just robbed a bank. And she also got part of his license law for G. You are or for G. V are there were other witnesses one including a woman who saw light cars speed away from the park 20 seconds after the gun shots.

And at least two witnesses described a yellow Volkswagen driving quickly from the neighborhood with its lights off. Um, One of a neighborhood resident here's the gun shots. Here's Bobby Vielante's calls for help glances out her apartment window to see a man walking casually away from the crime scene. Well, everyone else was running toward the sounds of the screaming and I'm so excited right now.

This is like, was so tense. Yes.

Um, and multiple other residents.

So this he was seen by tons of people that night. Are they witnessed a scruffy looking man with dark stringy hair and stubble driving a small yellow car recklessly away from the scene. He almost crashed into a car.

“He ran a red light almost crashed into a guy that guy started following him.”

He was so pissed that the guy almost killed him. But he he could only he only followed him so far and then he lost him. Um, and then later found that it was some of Sam. Okay. So, Uh,

On the same night, local resident Cecilia Davis is walking her dog. This is this is like the woman that brings it all together. I love Cecilia. She's walking her dog. Um,

and at the scene of the Mosquat's Vielanti shooting. So she sees patrol officer Michael Cattano. Take it a car, a yellow car by a fire hydrant. And then moments after the cop left, a young man walks past her and studies her with some interest.

And she feels concerned because he's got a dark um object in his hand.

So she she said he was wielding a dark object. She doesn't know what it is. She just runs home. Only to hear shots fired moments later. So she calls the police. She doesn't say anything for four days.

And then she calls the police.

“And they start checking every car that got ticketed that night in that area.”

Fucking chances, man. And not only do they check it if it's someone saw it happen. Yep. And then new about the murders. And someone saw what she saw happen was a guy that gave her weird vibe.

Totally. And she put all of it together where it's like, yeah. You got away from the man that was day in dangering you. Then you stayed with it. Yeah.

And then reported it. Totally. Love it. Love it. Way to go Cecilia.

Cecilia. And her dog. Marty. Most of the dog. Marty.

Oh, you made it. Um. I was so excited that that was actually the dog's name. Oh, no way. She made it out.

We're like, oh, sorry. It's your dad's name. So the next day police investigate. They go and they check Berke Berke with his car. It's one of the several that got ticket at that night.

And they see it's parked outside his apartment building at 35 pine street in Yonkers. And they see there's a rifle in the back seat. What? Uh-huh. Hydro rifle.

Um, yeah. Right. So they search the car. They're like that's probable cause. They search the car.

And they find a double bag filled with ammunition. So the crime scenes of threatening letter address to inspector Timothy Dowd. Uh-huh. Um, so they know they probably have their man. They're still together.

They put in a request for a search warrant. But they know they they're very concerned with going into his apartment. Yeah. Without having it because they don't want to lose. Right.

The case. Right. So they stand out. They wait outside David Berke with his apartment until 10 o'clock in night. Um.

And when he comes out and gets into his car. And he had a paper bag with him. And there that 44 was inside the bag. Oh my god. He gets in the car sits down and then detective John, a fellow.

Fala Tico approaches the driver side and puts the gun right against. But right next to Berke with his temple. And then detective Sergeant William Gardella covers from the passenger side with his gun inside the car.

And David Berke with his taken into custody for the son of Sam murders.

“Um, they say it's reported that he was very calm and very serene almost seemed happy.”

Wow. So when they search his apartment the next day apartment 70, they find the walls are covered in satanic graffiti. The whole apartment is a complete mess. There's liquor bottles everywhere. And they also find three stenographers.

No books where Berkeowitz had meticulously recorded hundreds of arson fires that he had set. Hundreds. Yes. He had been recorded since he was 21. Some sources alleged that the number of arson fires he recorded was over 1,400.

Yeah. Just he recorded or set. Well, he wrote them into these notebooks. Yeah. And they believe that they correspond to real fires that happened around.

Oh my god. The Bronx and Queens. And that's not Brooklyn. I think so. What about Coney Island?

I think that's a neighborhood. And what about the island where the statue of Liberty lives? Oh, you mean, uh, Liberty Island? Freedom Island? All right.

Now people are legit mad. Angry. Like even they, even they know. Uh, he is question for half an hour. And then immediately cops to everything and explains to the cops in great detail.

Um, all of the crimes that he perpetrated. And when they ask him why he says his neighbor Sam cars black lab Harvey was possessed by an ancient demon. And Harvey made him do it because he wanted the blood of pretty young girls.

“Uh, yeah, wait. Okay. So that's why he called himself son of Sam is the neighbor's name was Sam Sam car and Sam car's dog.”

Like it was he was, but I don't know. So, uh, but later, so you know, I've been listening to the audiobook of those two fight monsters, which is the guy from the who basically started the FBI. But if I cap all that John E. Douglas, I think his name is. Um, but he interviewed David Berkowitz years later when they were putting together their, um, when they decided they were going to start profiling serial killers. Yeah. Um, profiles of them, whatever.

But he basically got David Berkowitz to admit that all of this shit was fake. The dog talking to him and everything was completely sorry. It was completely made up so that he didn't seem responsible and that he could get off on the insanity plea. And it was purely because he was so angry at women.

He had never had successful women.

He, um, he's an angry man. He was very angry. He was very, very like a spoiled child. I think it was that thing. He didn't know how to handle. He wasn't he wasn't in his fault and didn't get it. Yeah. And so he just wanted everyone to pay for his loneliness and lack of popularity. Which seems like such a narrative of a lot of free killers that are just like they feel entitled and their pissed off that everyone else doesn't know.

Yeah. They should be getting everything they want. It makes me think of that boy, um, in Santa Barbara, they just think of that. All those kids in Santa Barbara. Yeah. It's the exact same thing where everybody else, it's not anything that has to do with them.

They don't take any personal responsibility. It's everybody else that everyone else has to pay. Right. It's, I guess, narcissism and, you know, a lot of the way. Yeah.

Talked up shit.

But, um, anyway, he, he basically, he is tried found guilty on June 12th, 1978.

He sentenced to six life terms totaling a maximum of 365 years in prison. He, they send him to Attica in 1987, he becomes a born again Christian. Good luck with that. Uh, and before his first parole hearing in 2002, he sent a letter to the governor of New York. But he lived out.

How did I have to? He's still alive. Sorry. He's still alive. He's still alive.

Yeah. How did he not know? He was only in his 30s when he was a, But I put him to death or something. No.

It's, um, he admitted to everything so they didn't give him the word. Okay. Okay. Go on. Jesus Christ.

Just blew my mind. I know. It's not crazy. Yeah. Um, he sent a letter to George Petaki, who is the governor of New York at the time, asking, um, to have his

parole hearing canceled.

“He said, in all honesty, I believe I deserve to be imprisoned for the rest of my life.”

I have with God's help, um, long ago come to terms with my situation. And I've accepted my punishment. Wow. Um, then in 1993, he went into this weird thing where he was claiming to be responsible for um, satanic cult killings.

He was trying to say that he didn't. He wasn't the only one responsible for the son of Sam murders that there were other people. And it was because of this satanic cult and blah, blah, blah. And when that, um, story came out, uh, Jimmy Brezel and himself, uh, made this statement. Um, when they talked David Berkowitz that night, which was like the night he got arrested.

He recalled everything step by step by step by step. Um, the guy has 1,000% recall and that's it. He's the guy and there's nothing else to look at. For sure. So.

Wow. Have me to your son. I'm sorry.

I was going to do a heavy hitter, which I always avoid because it's so much research.

I know I miss big things and, you know, sorry, Spike Lee. I was going to do a heavy hitter this week. Actually, or like, I was going to do a heavy hitter this week.

“Like, you know, the thing we're like, should I do this one or should I do that one?”

I finish this one out. Maybe I'll do this one. Yes. And then it was just like, no Georgia, you need more than 16 hours before you decide to do a heavy hitter. I mean, you really do.

And I think my Wikipedia recitation proves that. Yeah. No, that was great. People that shoot from a distant, like, there was something very, I mean, obviously we're saying this. It's just so lame.

It's just so cowardly. Yeah, to like stand from a distance and shoot a person and then just be like, I am the son of Sam. It's emotionally detached from what you don't expect from most serial killers. Right. Who are just like in it for the suffering and seeing the suffering of others?

Yeah. He was, he wanted to end lives because it was about his failure as a man. Right. He could have been a mafia hitman. Yeah. If you got fucking painted his apartment and I got his shit together.

[laughs] It's tough listening to dogs. Yeah. Poor dogs.

“It was like, dude, I fucking love everyone.”

Don't bring me into this bitch. All I want are treats. I just want them to bring me inside everyone as well as working. Yeah. Why am I in the back?

Give me a scratch mine in the air. Everyone's in a blue. And then don't bring me into your stories. I'm not satanic. I am, I love the idea of being possessed by an ancient demon.

Yeah. Not a recent demon. I mean, the dog maybe was an ancient demon, but it was also like, but I'm past that. I'm born again. He'd, yeah.

She'd gotten healthy. Yeah. Okay. And we're back, Karen. Any son of Sam updates?

There are a couple.

So first of all, David Berquitz still is serving a life sentence in Epstate New York.

Then also in 2025 Netflix released The Three Part Docu series Conversations with a Killer The Son of Sam Tables. And that featured interviews with victims, loved ones, researchers, and former law enforcement assigned at the case. There's also a new interview with David Berquitz, where he emphasizes his remorse, any acknowledges that he should have gotten help sooner. Wow.

Yeah. I also looked at that. There was a documentary called The Suns of Sam, a dissent into darkness. And Paul Giamati was a voice in that. And it was really good.

It talked a lot about like the Colty feeling back then. Yeah. And that like the Cropsy era just like how there was just something going on. Yeah. Like, say, panic wise.

Right. That there was kind of like dark things happening and no one could put their finger on it. And so it was like Satan or it's evil or it's that now we know it's just Epstein. It was just yes. But also the person who made the documentary thinks there's more than one that David Berquitz didn't do it all by himself,

which is who the fuck knows. Whatever. Okay. I mean, post very possible. Yeah. It's a good one. All right. Let's head back to the show where we are going to wrap it up. Oh. Well, shit, man.

That's that man. Should we say one thing that makes us happy? Oh, good idea. Is it sleeping all week? Because that's my dude sleeping.

I'm going to think I'm going to either have something. Oh, my new car. Oh, yeah, yeah. Can that be mine? Yes. Okay. This is the first new car I've ever had in my life.

Nice. It feels so luxurious. It's a Toyota Corolla, which is my first car I ever had in my house. Oh, my amy down shitty little car that was just like the the most basic you can get at the time. And this one has like fucking a moon roof and a fucking an automatic like your seat moves automatically.

I never had a car. It shapes it to you as you get in.

“Yeah, or it has like the one you need to move forward.”

It's just like you don't have to. Oh, okay. You know. You have to do that while you're driving it next to me. Almost hit your face when it's your anyway or crash.

Right or crash. Yeah.

It has like it has adult things that I never thought I would ever have in my life.

But it's a Toyota doesn't have a fucking crazy expensive. It has a Cooch warmer, which is like to me the next level of fucking class. You can have those all the time. You just you don't have to wait to get into your car. What do you mean?

I see hot past right near underwear.

Are you trying to get me a Houston? I can already.

“It's just like it feels it feels grown up.”

And I like I didn't think I'd ever care about it. So like this and I'm really just like pleased and grateful. It's great. It's what's nice. It's nice to like be like, oh, I earned something.

Yeah, I earned it. I think I earned it. And I'm really happy about it. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah. I guess mine would be. So this this is Thursday. So tomorrow night I am playing a show with my friends. The band sure sure.

Right. The satellite in LA. So if you live in the LA area. Stephen and I will be there. These guys are coming.

I think I only can only put one name on the go. I'm coming. But if you are around in one, I absolutely guarantee that you can. I absolutely guarantee that you will love this band sure. Sure, sure.

They are so fucking good.

They're going to be famous. I just played them for me. And I was like, it was one of the things. Like this reminds me of a little of this. And it was all like classic bands that you love.

Yes. Really fucking good. Yeah. It's not. I told them because we did a show together like four years ago.

And it was just because my friend Kevin is in the band. And he was like, do you want to do a show with us? And I told him after the show, I was like, I was so scared to see your band. Because when do you go see a band?

“And you're like, that was the best thing ever.”

It's not that often. Yeah. It's intimidating when you go see it. Not intimidating. When you go see a friend, it's like, come see me do this thing.

Like, all right. And you're like, oh my god, you're so talented. Yes. It's just so exciting. Yeah.

And people are great. And their their music is just so listenable.

I mean, I've already given the recommendation.

Yeah. And you're playing music. And I am opening for them. And I'm going to do a couple of my old moldy oldies. You have some, you have some like, classic songs.

And then you have some comedy songs here, right? Yeah. Are you going to do? I don't think I've classic songs. You don't do a lot of like, well, then you have like sad ones.

So that's like, like, like a good by yellow brick rose. Yeah. No, just like not outright comedy. Some of my comedy songs make you sad. Exactly.

Yeah. But I can still hide behind the comedy part. So that's good. Yeah. I'm only going to do a handful.

If I was at the show and someone did like, if they're, I would be like, get off the stick. I just want to see this man, please. So I don't see you play. I'm excited to play.

Because I haven't done it in a while. I haven't seen you play since I've known you. Oh, yeah. You got it. I did show.

Sorry. I did a show when we were in Denver. I got to do it for the high planes comedy festival. I got to go do a variety show after our show. Yeah.

Which was super fun and a bunch of people that were at our show came to that show too. And I thought it was going to be kind of shitty because I hadn't played publicly in a really long time and it was super fun. So I'm super looking forward to it. But more than that, if you like good music, I would recommend being at the show.

I think, yeah. I think it's going to. I'm excited. I mean, Stephen. How long was that?

Stephen. Stephen. Um, fuck. I like this episode. Yeah.

That's good one. Yeah. Okay. We're back. All right.

So as George has said, this episode was originally titled "Hither in Yon." But here are some possibilities. We were naming it today. Based on the episode, we could call it Cakewalk in the Park from when George is talking about writing free stories.

I want to use that for something. That's like, gotta be a book. Um, and then we could also call it Clubbing with Polyester. That's right. Love it.

Hey. All right. You guys will thanks for listening to another episode of ReWine. And let's go back to the podcast where we'll say goodbye. Um, thanks for listening.

But I don't know. I feel like it's a sign off. Yeah. Right. We've already done that.

Yeah, you do that so much. We appreciate that. It's so nice. Thank you guys for listening. Thank you for being here with us and stay sexy.

And don't get murdered. Bye. Bye. I'll just get out of the cap box. Hey.

One cookie. One cookie. Oh, okay. Yeah? Elvis.

Wanna go cookie? Okay. Wanna go cookie? All right. He's like, yeah.

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