Charlie Kirk: A Special Friend & Generational Inspiration

- Hey everybody, welcome to a special edition of Next Up. I'm Mark Calprin. Thank you for being here.

“I'm Editor-in-Chief for five interactive video platform.”

Two way, the host to your guide to everything. Next up, happy to have you here. Special program, marking one year, since the murder of Charlie Kirk. And we're gonna spend the hour talking about him

and about his life and his celebration of his life for a variety of reasons. Tucker Carlson, good friend with Charlie will be here. Executive Producer of this program, Brian Salman, who, New Charlie will also,

we'll talk about their reflections on this extraordinary year, painful and difficult year for so many. Before they're here though, I wanna tell you a little bit about why it's so important to me to commemorate Charlie's life.

A lot of reasons, first of all, and maybe foremost, is I wanna make sure, I can do everything I can do in my small part, I can play. It makes sure his kids know how he was thought of

by those who understood him.

Second is, it's amazing to me still,

how misunderstood Charlie's legacy and work was, is amongst people on the left. I remember with such resonance, how many people on the left after Charlie was murdered, who said they'd never heard of him.

Or in some cases, the only impression they had of him was, he was a right-wing extremist or phrases like that. This is a complicated and extraordinary person,

“and I think it's important to put his life in context.”

As best we can, not just now, but forevermore, he touched so many people. I know, I know, my relationship with Charlie primarily consisted of texting, and it might go on his program and his coming on my programs,

both here, next up and on two way. And I know so many of his closest friends, because so many of his closest friends are people who I cover as part of the president's team Trump and MAGA. And I've met so many people,

including at his memorial service shortly after he was killed in Arizona, who knew him somewhat. I met some of his neighbors. I met young people who met him once or twice. And he touched so many people.

And it's important, I think, to understand what he was about. And he was so multi-dimensional in what he was. It was an intellectual, as a thinker, as a husband, as a father, as a son, as an organizer, political organizer, as a member of text chains with people like his friend, J.D. Vance,

and others who really saw a burn with the desire to make America better. So I'm going to talk a little bit about and show you some clips from my conversation to them just to try to tell you a little bit about how I think about him. And what was extraordinary about him that I experienced. And as I said, he was kind enough to invite me on his show on a regular basis.

And he appreciated two way. And he appreciated something that I appreciate when people appreciate, which is that I'm an old-fashioned report. I'm not a partisan. I'm not as so many people in the legacy media are where I grew up professionally.

I'm not a liberal. I don't favor liberals. I support the American people.

And I always enjoyed going on his program and I would call him out at times,

because Charlie was such a master at the public presentation. And understood as your approach election day, for instance,

“you need to both encourage folks to turn out because they want to be on the bandwagon”

with the winner, but also remind them that they could lose. And and playing that game of expectations just extraordinary. Charlie came on two way and and as I said on to this program. And he talked about including answering questions from the two way community. But we talked a lot about my view of what made him different,

of what separated him from others. And one of the points I've made to him, both pie privately and on the show, is that he had been a Democrat. Had he been doing for Barack Obama as a Democrat. What he did for Donald Trump and the MAGA movement.

The media would know exactly who he was. He'd be celebrated this young man with an incredible, incredibly compelling light story. How he got to be friends with the president of the United States is. It's a it's a great American story.

And just never given his due by the dominant media.

Here's here's that conversation. With Charlie, this is from this is from two way your work. Organizing and energizing young people on behalf of the conservative movement and president Trump is also. I would say of all the things you've done.

One of your most historic achievements. It really is historic.

You know this even from people who you're friends with even people who like you. Who said turn points not going to turn any young people out. They don't know what they're doing.

They've never done it before.

Get out the vote is not for amateurs like Donald Trump. You're riding the crest of a movement. I talk a lot with the folks in the administration. I also and I'm sure this will come up in Q and A. I think they're doing a much better job than the media would always give them credit for.

There's a mass amount of incoming and they have picked the biggest fights because the voters voted for those fights. I'm just here as a friend of the president and again right place right time.

“Look as far as like where I find myself and the role the best way I think I actually help the administration.”

It's not like being in the White House or being in the Eisenhower executive office building. All that's nice right. That's amazing.

It's an incredible enormity to even walk those halls.

It's actually being in the grassroots. And then also being an explainer of what is the administration is doing or trying to do. To people I don't have time to consume. You know six hours of this information and get down into the weeds. There are people who have the job I do who would look at your contact with the administration and the money you raise.

And they'd say this is evil and insidious and and there's something wrong with it. And and if you were on the left if you were doing this with Barack Obama and you were organizing young people and helping pressure. Members of Congress who weren't supporting the president's agenda. You'd be time person of the year you'd be you'd be considered a hero by the media. But because you're doing it on behalf of definitely not going to get that market because you're doing it on behalf of a Republican.

It's it's treated differently. Like that's from April the year before he was killed and the reason I played that is because you saw how humble he is but at the same time. I know I know because I can read him.

He knew I was right he knew that that he never got the kind of credit that he would have gotten a heavy bit of democrat.

Another super poignant thing for me from that same conversation was I asked him a question I've asked a lot of people, which is whether you're unfulfilled professional ambitions. And again, particularly poignant now because because he's not going to be able to cheat anything going forward. This is Charlie Kirk in my conversation with him on his unprofile ambitions from two way April of 25 S to please.

“What are some of your two or three unfulfilled professional ambitions of yours?”

That's a good question. I want to finish this next book then I'm writing which is actually a religious book about how people should honor the Sabbath. And so hopefully I get that done in time and it's like I've wanted the right this book for quite some time. So that is number one and then number two which you guys you might get a chuckle out of which I hope I get done this year. I do want to bring more international speaking.

I want to go to countries like South Korea and Japan and see really. And also I'm going to Europe in a couple weeks. I want to see if this is really a movement of the west or if this is just a unique American phenomenon. I've been to Europe before but I really want to go deep and see whether or not how, how, how widespread is this right wing correction. Yeah.

And really spend time understanding it and learning. Are you climbing the last, you go, you go, you go. My last professional, you know, thing is I would love to be able to just do a serious sabbatical.

“It's not possible with everything I'm doing.”

I love to just take three months and just learn and read and, you know, dive into great ideas. But I don't know if that's enough. So Charlie did go to South Korea. He did go to Asia. And in fact he went to Asia and came back from Asia.

Right before he was killed and the day before he was killed I did the last media interview with him. Just by coincidence on next up here. And he was exhausted. Asia, Asia trip is hard, particularly if you're not used to it. And I'm told it wasn't totally delighted that they agreed to do the interview with me because he was tired and busy. And he was about to launch his college tour.

But he made time for the interview. And we talked about a bunch of stuff about housing, we talked about young men, we talked about all sorts of things. We also talked about the fact that he had just been portrayed on South Park. And of course, the South Park guys ribbed him mercilessly. But Charlie, one of the extraordinary things about him was just the equanimity.

You could not get under that guy skin in some fundamental way. And he was so savvy about the world. And did what all souls should do. Revolent and joy, the positive, and just set the negative aside. And so on the one hand being on South Park, an honor.

On the other hand, no one likes to be teasness necessarily. So here's Charlie with me September 9th the day before he was killed. Talking about his portrayal on South Park.

South Park, were you a fan of South Park as a boy? Not yes and no, I'll tell you that when I was a big deal. When I was in like eighth ninth grade, so I watched a couple episodes. Thinking at Everbeone's South Park was like beyond anything. I had on my even back this summer, I couldn't have imagined it.

So yeah. So they included you in the new episode. Do you care like that? I thought it was hilarious. I thought it was awesome.

I thought it was hilarious. I mean, people say, you know, it was so funny. A lot of people on the left were mad that I wasn't mad. I thought it was really funny. And, you know, a lot of people are, you know, we have the Master Debater shirt.

“It says kind of you have to be able to laugh at yourself.”

It's on take yourself so seriously and honestly, like they captured the essence of like what we kind of do in a very South Park in way. And, you know, that's that's a symbol of success. And I think we on the right have to be able to laugh at ourselves better.

I've never been so proud of you.

For all your accomplishments, this to me was like the pinnacle. So we did that conversation. He then went to Utah and he was killed. And the whole conversation go watch it on YouTube. We're listening to the podcast a year ago.

And it's, it's, it's just extraordinary how diverse the guy was. In terms of his actions, his activities. And, and his brain and how hard he worked. And, and how, how much he cared about other people and how he stayed in touch with people. Again, I, I, I, I, I'd never won overstate how well I knew him.

But, I miss him. I miss him as a journalist.

“I miss him because of the extraordinary story he was.”

But, what, what I'll talk about with, with Brian and Tucker is he just had a capacity to touch people. He just had a capacity to make people feel like he was thinking about. Not just them, but he did that. But about the whole country. About the world about what he believed was a big necessary corrective to make the country go in a different direction.

Particularly, you know, the institutions we talk about here all the time. Media, universities, colleges, corporate world. He believed the country could be on a much better track with fundamental change. And, um, to be, to be a successful as he was, to be as powerful as he was, to be as connected as he was.

And to still events the humility that he advanced always.

Quite something, quite something. Uh, there's a lot more to say about him. There's a lot more to say about him. And again, this hour is devoted to trying to explain to those who did not know Charlie Clark Kirk, what he was like. And trying to share with two people who did know him with those who do know him.

Reflections, remembrances of this extraordinary person. And as I said at the beginning, I opened some small way to provide as much information and comfort to his kids. So they can, as they grow, they can learn just one extraordinary father that they had for too short a period of time. Okay, we'll take a quick break. Uh, and then we'll come back and we'll talk more about Charlie Kirk here on next up.

I'd love to know what you think.

Send me an email as always.

Thoughts you have about Charlie Kirk next up at devilmakeairmedia.com.

“And he thoughts you have about Charlie Kirk and, and how you remember him or questions you have about him.”

Subscribe to the program on YouTube, subscribe to us as a podcast. We look, love to grow the Legion of nexters YouTube dot com slash at next up. Helpern or go to your podcast platform and turn on the downloads to be able to get the show and all our new reports as soon as they come at. As I said, a quick break. And then when we come back more on the life of Charlie Kirk next up.

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Get that peace of mind. Go to select quote.com/mark today to get started. All right, next up and joining me now to continue to try to do what we can to let the record speak for itself and talk about kind of person Charlie Kirk was a man. I was going to file their political operative of friend Tucker Carlson, founder of the Tucker Carlson network. Post to the Tucker Carlson show Tucker welcome.

Thanks, Mark. Well, what's the last year been like for you balancing record elections reflections on your friend but also the sadness it comes with just the reality of his being gone. Well, I mean, it's definitely one of the saddest years of my life.

“Partly because of Charlie's murder, partly because everything has happened subsequently. I mean, it's just the, you know, it was September 9th. I'll never forget it. That was the day these really hit Doha, which was like shocking.”

You felt like, wow, we're in the beginning of something really new. I interviewed Sam Alpin that day and deeply unpleasant interview and then the next day, Charles murdered and for some reason, I don't think those things are connected in any sense. I'm not suggesting that but it was like all of a sudden things just got very weird and dark and I think they've remained both of those things ever since on a political level Charlie really turned out to be irreplaceable. That's not my primary concern to be clear.

But I also felt like that was just to change like murdering Charlie Kirk of all people. And I remember him saying to me, probably a month before he was killed, he's like, be careful, you know, someone's going to, you know, clip you or something like that. He's other to me.

He was up in my house and I remember thinking, I'm not too worried. It never occurred to me harm might come to him.

It's so crazy. Now, even now, you're later thinking about it. But anyway, but it's also just sad because of what a wonderful guy he was and you hate almost to say, such complimentary things to people who have passed because it sounds false. But in this case, it really was true. I mean, he was one of them. In addition to everything else, there was obvious, capable, tireless, hyper-disciplined, self-disciplined, focused. He was just a great enthusiast. He was a thigh slapper. He's the kind of guy, you know, you could have a four hour meal with him and he would just be amped up and fully engaged and excited and taking notes.

You know, he's just that guy and there are two few of those guys in the world. So, yeah, what a huge loss. There are so many things I've tried to dispel over the last year because you know a lot of people who know Charlie Will. I know few are, although I know some, but what I also know is a lot of people who didn't know him at all. Or vaguely were familiar with what he didn't thought of him as some guy in Arizona who liked Trump. And this notion of Charlie as a hater has been one that even, we have mutual friends, including people in the media, left wing people in the media, who just said to me, Mark, how could you have known that guy, how could you speak so favorably like, what a hater he was.

I hate, I hate sometimes to play you for you, but I'm going to play you for you. This is from September 13, talking about Charlie, not being a hater. S2, please. And he's a model, really. I mean, he didn't have hate in this heart. It's one of the reasons I couldn't stop looking at these videos last night. People were describing the opposite of what he was. He was filled with hate, no.

“And if you talk to him about people who had attacked him or who were truly his enemies, up to, and I think including the people who assassinated him yesterday, he would never ever express hate.”

Ever, he would always turn to, no, this person has been let astray, this person is clearly possessed by dark forces.

His person is a perpetrator, but also a victim of evil. I mean, that really was his world view. That's the Christian world view. And he expressed that in public and especially in private. The other person I know who people say to me, how can you be associated with such a hater as you? It's head of fact you, about you all the time. And I say, these are two flawed human beings, but man, they're just not haters. So just amplify what you said so movingly shortly after he was killed. What's the, what can you say to people to, to let them say, you may disagree with a lot of Charlie Kirk's life, but and views, but he was not a hater.

It's that's so far from the truth. It's hard to believe that people mean it when they say it, and it's not just some propaganda line. I assume some people do say it. I have a ton of flaws.

You know, I mean, first of all, it's just totally against my religion as it is his, you're not allowed to hate. It's just absolutely not allowed.

It's just fully forbidden. It is one of the main sins. So no, I also think that hatred and small mindedness are kind of twins. They tend to go together.

“And Charlie was one of the most broad-minded people I've ever met. One of the quickest to admit if he'd been wrong, which is always a measure of a man's character. I think if Charlie would just add wood.”

He would take the light in admitting how wrong he had been about something. If his views on a topic evolved, he would say, you know, it was only six months ago. I thought this, and that was completely insane. And I'm sorry that I said that. You know, that, that is a test of somebody. He also had a kind of instinctive desire to find common cause with other people. And above all, a gut-level compassion for people as people, not as political players, but just as human beings. And the example that comes immediately to mind is his relationship with the Glenn Greenwald, who, you know, Charlie was a heterosexual Christian, Glenn is gay and Jewish.

He's right-wing, Glenn is left-wing. They're both some of the most compassionate decent people I know. It just so happens. Both of them are with, would you agree or not with them? And they disagreed on a lot on the majority of issues. But Glenn last summer, actually, he happened to be also weirdly at my house when it happened, had a sex tape really super embarrassing, sex tape of him.

You know, doing weird-style, I actually never saw it, but apparently it was like horrifyingly embarrassing. And Charlie Kirk was one of the first people to defend Glenn Greenwald.

“Now, remember, Charlie Kirk is not only a political leader, he's a leader in his Christian community, he's an evangelical community.”

And, you know, the way that Glenn Greenwald was portrayed in this video was like pretty much the opposite of what evangelicals are for. I mean, it's considered horrifying, you know, like a gay sex video. And Charlie, I thought it was such an example of bravery, true real bravery. Charlie Kirk without any apology or caveat just said, "I know Glenn Greenwald is a good man and I feel sorry for him in his hour of shame." I don't know ten people with the balls to say something like that, because the people he was potentially defending were his allies and friends, his community. And he went way out to do that. I mean, if that doesn't tell you everything about Charlie Kirk, I don't know what would.

I tested the proposition you just raised in an ear talking to Charlie on my show April last year when I asked him, "I gave him maybe a stronger, more challenging hypothetical than Glenn Greenwald." And he invoked you in explaining his open-mindedness. Here it is, this is from April of 23, Charlie Kirk.

“Look down at your phone, it's a text, right? He says this, "Hey Charlie, it's Kamala Harris. I got your number. I'm going to be in Phoenix and I would love to get together."”

I would first of all have to verify that it's actually her number. And I'd say only on camera is the fact that it would be your thought bubble. I'd only do it on camera. Yeah. Why? Because she takes back and say, "I want to have -- I've heard a lot of great things about you. I want to compare notes and add a private dinner." No way. I would consider it to be disingenuous. Unless, unless, unless there would be an intermediary that would advocate. Okay, let's say you -- then I wouldn't have some mutual advice. You would do it.

No, yes, yes. Would you look forward to it? Of course I would. I love learning. I learned this from Tucker, sit down with people, even if you disagree. Ask great questions, be curious. Learn that from Tucker. Talk about your influence on each other, particularly in the question of how to deal with dissenting disagreement. Well, he didn't learn any of that from me. I mean, he had -- he was just temporarily inclined to engage with people, which is again.

I mean, you can kind of divide the world not until left and right. You can divide the world or Muslim Christian Jew or Black or White or wherever.

You can divide the world into pro people and not so pro people. I mean, that I have always thought that.

You know, and even people I vehemently disagree with or whose opinions I despise, there are some of them who sincerely believe that their opinions are going to help people. And I will always respect that. Always -- always admire that. And Charlie was exactly the same way. He just -- he liked people. He was in favor of them. If he thought something would help people, he would change his mind and swing in favor of it. So that's just who he was long before I met him. He changed his mind not a lot of issues.

I don't know if I'm the one who convinced him, but certainly on economic questions, which, you know, are so rarely discussed in the United States. We spend so much time on identity politics type questions and so little on, you know, how the wealth is distributed. And I'm interested in that topic, almost never get a chance to talk about it somehow.

But he was always willing to change his mind. Always. And you know, I'm from DC. I got there as a kid and left it 50.

“So I really was shaped by that city. And I would say -- and there are many wonderful things about it.”

But the thing that I always resented about it and still do more than ever is the unwillingness of people to revisit their core assumptions. They're two vested in whatever dumb idea they had in their 20s or 30s. And they can't go back. They're not man enough to admit that they were wrong. And that was just the opposite of him. But his views definitely changed. I would say the most interesting -- I would say really the best interview he ever did. I've seen was one he did last summer with me. I'd known to do it that has happened to be the person to whom you're speaking. But about economics and he shows up because I want to talk about economics. Great.

I didn't say a word for like two hours as he described sort of the plight of the average 27 year old in the United States and what he thought we ought to do about it. It was so compelling. And of course, completely ignored by policymakers. They would listen to him on a lot of things. He used to give like the classic conservative bootstraps speech and all his donors love that. But they weren't so interested in hearing about how some of their ideas they're so called free market ideas. It really shafted an entire generation, which they have. But Charlie didn't care.

And I just wanted -- I don't want to stop before I add the thing that I thought was most remarkable about him. So he was a nonprofit executive. He ran a nonprofit. That was his source of income, that was his source of power from, you know, really the day he left high school. And so he was supported by donors. That entire time.

You never -- I know a lot of people like that. You never meet one who's willing to cross his donors, not personally, but who's willing to disagree with them.

You know, they give you money for a reason, the same way that donors give to candidates. They want something in return. And Charlie was absolutely willing, not always eager, but willing. If he thought something was right or wrong and his donors disagreed, he would say I will find new donors. How many people -- I mean, you know, a million people would think tanks. I mean, have you ever met anyone who's really willing to -- they all say they're willing to do it, including people I have been friends with over the years.

They lie or they don't know themselves. They are not willing to do that. And he was. And that was based on principle, but it was also based on optimism and confidence that he could -- he could find -- he could find new donors. You know, tomorrow is another day for Charlie Kirk and he's like, okay, I'll find new donors. There are people who will -- who will fund whatever it is I think is right. You hear it. I hear everybody's talking about weight loss injections, because the results -- they're so dramatic. They work by lowering blood sugar and reducing appetite.

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The promo code is next up at TakeLeen.com. There's so many of his attributes that I want to follow up on. Let's try to take him in order. First of all, the guys are genius.

Truly a genius. And you don't find that always in political operatives. You don't find that always in people who attained his level of formal education.

You don't find that always in people who have really busy jobs. Just talk about any way you can illustrate what a genius he was. So funny. I've known as, of course, you famously have a lot of political consultants in my life. And a lot of them are so talented. You know, Mike Murphy, guys like that, you know, none of them would ever talk to me again.

“But I knew them well, you know, in their 30 years ago, and I think they were so talented.”

Steve Schmidt, you know, whatever his faults, very talented at certain things. I never met a single one who could do sort of both sides. Of the brain. In other words, Charlie was a really good speaker. He was a great explainer. He got to be a very much better speaker with time and a lot of effort.

Yeah.

Those are two. Those are not related skills. And oh, it's like, I'm a good talker. I'm also a good writer. Well, those are first cousins.

An organizer, a guy who like a detail man, who could also keep track of his staff, he had this enormous staff. You know, I have like 100th number of people working for me. And I have no idea what they're doing. I can't keep track of anything. You know, I can talk and that's it. And most people I know who are unusually fluent are exactly that way. He's the only person in 57 years. I have ever met who had those two skills simultaneously.

“And that is genius. And that's why he hasn't been replaced. And I unlike a lot of people who I'm friends with, by the way, I have a more charitable take on the people who are running turning point now.”

I don't agree with a lot of it. But I do think they're trying their best. I do. I actually do think that. Yeah. And I'm happy to say it. And I moreover, and I've told this directly to them. I feel so sorry for them. I could. There's no way I could do that. There's no chance. I could do that. I don't know what I would do right. How'd you like to be elevated to that role? Well, thanks. Yeah. They've been heroic. Another trade of his that again, I just want people to understand and you can explain it. So sophisticated really one of the most sophisticated pretty people I've ever met a high human intelligence and able to navigate through situations someone 25 years older and more experience and he was couldn't navigate through.

Yeah, that's for sure. So I thought and that's one of the reasons that I had a kind of hostile feeling about him at first.

I was still a teenager when I heard of him and he was recipient of money from a guy I really loved called Foster Freeze who was a was a fund manager from Delaware in Jackson, Wyoming and it was just a wonderful man like a truly wonderful man. And if who's passed, but if there's one criticism and I said this to Foster, he was easily taken in by people because he was just so open faced and ingenuous and from Wisconsin and kind of believed everybody who was that guy. Which is a great fault to have really and he could afford to have it, but I remember him telling you about Charlie Kirk and I said to my coach roommate, who was saying right next to me, I was like he's just a fast talking right wing world con in like I didn't know anything about Charlie Kirk, but Foster was like he's a brilliant young man and I was like, oh, you're getting snowed.

“He's a music man. Totally. Yeah, that's what I thought. I mean, I'm just too cynical. I've been around too long. Yeah, I've already admitted my age. So I've seen so much of this particularly in right wing slash Republican world.”

I mean, it's just one big scam. It's just a huge break on idealistic donors like Foster Freeze.

I've never said they'd come around all the time. 100%. He's from like rice like Wisconsin. He remembers his America that really wasn't great place. He wants it to be that he's willing to fund anybody who, you know, he thinks will help. And by the way, he fostered, in fact, funded a lot of great people, but there was always the chance that someone would, you know, BS his way into Foster's largest and so I was amazed and it took a few years to learn that Charlie was like totally sincere. And the areas in which we disagreed, the disagreement was completely sincere. It was completely heartfelt. He would tell you exactly why he thought what he thought, which is always a marker for me of honesty.

“If you would say, well, I just don't agree with that. Why do you think that? And he'll say, well, because I read it in this book or I had this experience or I mean, he could trace the genesis of every one of his ideas to root.”

Because he took ideas really seriously. And I would say, I'm casting about for criticism of Charlie, I really have only one and I don't even know if it's a criticism, but you do sort of wonder like he worked. And that got worked like an animal. And I'm just, you know, I'm a hard worker, but I'm also a wasp. And so I take my recreation really seriously. I like don't have a problem taking three days off to go bird hunting or something. I just like, I feel like that's like what you're supposed to do.

Charlie did not have that. Charlie would work like he had to force himself to take a sap of the famously. And he did that for, as a matter of religious observance, but he also did it for the, for the same reason, you know, God told ancient Hebrews to do it because he knew if he didn't, they would never stop working. And he, he worked. I mean, he like never stopped. And you sort of wonder like, I don't know, I wish, I mean, I think he had a really happy life and he loved Erica and he loved his children, but I, I don't know, I wish he'd had more time. I guess is what I'm saying.

Yeah, I mean, he loved reading. That's a hobby for some people. Yes, certainly. He certainly got to travel a lot. He loved people and he got to meet a lot of people across a range. So, you know, as you know, if you love your job, some people like like their job so much they like to do them a lot. But I agree with you. It's just, it's just so tragic that he'll never have the opportunity to do those more, you know, recreational type things. And I think probably he would have eventually transitioned at least somewhat towards that.

And not just in like small group, you know, donor meetings, but you know, in front of thousands of people on stage for an hour and a half he could speak without notes. So, you know, it's actually not that hard.

Nobody else does it. Very few people do that. Very few. I mean, I don't really know many at all. In fact, I can think of only one or two who do that.

Yeah. And that's impressive. Yeah. You mentioned your, you know, your early John to see of him and then you're growing appreciation in the film about your friendship. What are some of the key scenes. Gosh, you know, he weirdly, I was landing in Phoenix for some reason. I can't remember. This was years ago. And he somehow knew I was going to be in Phoenix. He texted me on the plane. And he said, I have this new girlfriend. And I would love to introduce you to her. You free for lunch. And as it happened, I was free for lunch.

And it was going to be one of those days. I know you've had a thousand in your life for your kind of like you've got five hours of dead time. So you wind up texting your hotel room with room service.

And it's very depressing. So I was grateful to be able to have lunch. And we had lunch at the four seasons in Scottsdale and with Erica who I never met. He was dating her.

“And we had this kind of amazing lunch. All the lunches I've had. I'll never forget that and not simply because of what's happened since she that woman was intense.”

She was actually more tense than him and more conservative. And he, he started saying that later toward the end of his life. You'd say, Eric is more right wing than I am. That was true. From my breed of it, that was literally true. She was. And kind of fearless. And I, you know, a lot has been said about Eric has since literally the last thing I'll ever do is get involved. Then I still talk to her. I love Erica. So I'm not, you know, not getting involved in any of that. But I will just say as someone who's known her for a long time.

That was a great match. I thought it was a great match. And he listened to her and not enough kind of fake way like I'm pretending to listen to my wife. I really respect you. But he actually did respect her and did listen to her. And she, she really moved him. I think on a bunch of issues. What else do you want people to remember about him as, as we move towards, he's not going to be forgotten. But as we move towards what I consider to be a critical year in trying to educate people on who he was, what he was about why he was a special person. What are the other traits or stories you think are.

Fearless people. He was totally fearless. He was totally fearless. And like a lot of people who are killed, he's not the only one I know. He had premonitions of it was obvious. He did have premonitions of it. He didn't know for certain. But he felt he was going to be harmed. And he told people that. And he kept going. He, you know, he was so he was literally fearless. He was willing to. He felt it was possible he was risking his life. It turned out he was and he did it anyway.

“But he was also fearless in a more basic and I think important way. He was willing to say what he thought and he was willing to hear views that he didn't agree with.”

And so when he would defend free speech and more than just like technically free speech, first amendment government makes no laws of bridging speech.

But, but free expression like the right to say what you think and to be taken seriously and judged on the terms of what you say, not dismissed on questions of motive. Like, oh, you're a bad person enough to hear you. He would never do that. That is a marker of mediocrity in my opinion, where someone you can't, I say something is like, I don't have to hear you, you're bad. Charlie despised that tactic. And that's exactly what it is. It's a tactic. And now, of course, it's kind of the raining mode of communication in this country under a Republican president.

And so I do think one of the great losses for the nation in Charlie's murder is the loss of his voice in this. There is no chance. I can say this with total confidence. Charlie would sit back and allow this kind of noncommunication. Like shut up. I can't hear you. You're an evil person. He would absolutely face down anyone who did that in the Trump administration and now they all do it.

“And I just, I just so admire that. And I so fervently agree with that. I mean, I hear things all the time that I think are completely insane.”

And I force myself as a matter of principle to assess what the person is actually saying. Right. And that's again why he defended Glenn Greenwald because he had lists a lot of you would say, oh, who's some left wing gay guy left wing gay guy. I don't have to listen to him.

Like there's deep integrity enforcing yourself to do that and encouraging others to do that. And Charlie benefited so much from doing that because when you force yourself to do that, you learn a lot.

You rediscover your basic empathy for other people and the connected nature of humanity. Every person is connected to every other person in ways that we can't precisely describe, but they're nonetheless real.

“And he knew that because that's how we lived. And so I feel like we, we really lost something important in that specific way when he was killed.”

And I mourned it. I couldn't agree more and and and just as with as he said earlier, the leadership of turning point, there's no replacing that apparently. I know there's no replacing that for for for for what he believed in and for the country. People talk about whether he would have ever run for president. Did we lose a possible president? Are you think that that really wasn't what he was destined for?

I think he definitely would have run for president. I think he definitely would have run for president. I talked about it with him a number of time and he was a long way from.

We wasn't even 35. But so he couldn't. But no, I think he would have definitely run for president and. I mean, who knows. I mean, it's one thing to say, I would run like.

“I know something at this topic. It's one thing to say, I would run for president, but would you actually?”

Yeah. What does that even mean? It means disrupting your life in a way that most people can't even contemplate. And so maybe he wouldn't have actually done it. Of course, it's impossible to know, but he was I can I can confirm that he was open to it.

For sure, but, but whether as a candidate or an advisor to candidates and presidents, he would have been a force, he was a force.

He was it turns out the the key force. Because again, you know, a lot of it. Well, a lot of us, I'll speak for myself. I don't get involved anything. I just sit and watch and give my opinion on stuff. And I enjoy it. It's great to spend a great life. I've done it for 35 years and I'm grateful to this sort of chosen to do with my life. But it doesn't actually do much. I was adamantly opposed to the war in Iran. I barked about it a lot, including to Trump many times face to face.

I had no effects. Zero effect. Because, you know, in Stalin's famous words like, what are we do? I command. I don't. Charlie did. Charlie had actual constituents. He had voters who listened to him and would vote in the basis of his recommendations. He had actual powers. What I'm saying. He wasn't just a pundit though he had a pundit's job part of the day. He was a political organizer with an army behind him. And I don't know. That's real. That's way more real than anything I've ever done. I'll tell you that.

Yeah. Last thing I want to talk about is what you think people can do to honor his memory. Whether they're affiliated with turning point or not. What's the proper way for people who who understand what he was a bad who believed that him believes in what he. He cared about in his vision. What's the proper way to honor that? Listen to other people. That's the key to life too. And salvation. Listen to other people. Do not dismiss them. Don't imagine you know somebody without hearing that person or know what his views are. His life experience is you become smaller and meaner and dumber.

The less you listen to other people. Deaf people get Alzheimer's to restate deaf people get Alzheimer's from their deafness because it cuts them off from human society from interaction. And their brain shrink and they become demented. The fact so that that is, but that's also true for all of us. There's a kind of spiritual deafness that affects our souls and makes us smaller and worse people. And I just see it in, you know, in every part of American life now. And it's making everyone crazy and radical and yes violent violent because when you don't see another person as a person, you know, you're willing to do things to him. You wouldn't do to a person. And so Charlie was committed to not being that. And I hope the rest of us can make the same commitment.

“As a content creator, what's your view of the best way to tell his story? Is it a documentary? Is it a book? Is it is it first person interviews? What's the best way to produce something that would capture him and tell future generations about him?”

Well, I think, you know, I'm kind of a, I'm a believer in the end or thought culture, which is to say the best way of remembering someone is in stories around the fire. And to keep his name on our lips and not just as, you know, a symbol of this or the center of some murder mystery or controversy or whatever. That's probably not the best way. But as a, like, what was Charlie all about.

So, and by the way, you know, I've really stayed out of, I've tried to stay out of everything that's happened and the controversy that's swirled around his name since his passing. But I do think that we should bring that same attitude that same fearlessness, the same honesty, the same open mindedness to, you know, all questions pertaining to Charlie Kirk, I do think that. I mean, he would, I know that he would, he would never assume he knew something ever he was not like that. I mean, again, this was a very young man, not old enough to run for president who's views on core issues, particularly economic issues and he never gets credit as I said for that changed dramatically how, because he listened really carefully he watched really carefully.

“And so just to just to say that, spirit of open mindedness and love. Yeah, and a man of both facts and anecdotes. Yeah, it was exactly a power of both powers.”

Totally. Tucker, so grateful to, I've just determined to, like I said, do my part, however small in trying to get people who didn't know him and opportunity to understand what he was about. And how extraordinary he was as a human being and as a political professional as a thinker as a friend as a son, husband, father, just an extraordinary person taken far too soon in such horrible circumstances and as he suggested so much of the conversation of the last year.

Has been about crap unrelated to honoring his memory and the worry.

I agree with you. grateful to you for making time. I don't need to promote Tucker's works. I'm not going to read what's in the telepathy because please Tucker has plenty plenty of audience already grateful to you.

“Thank you and I'll go on the record and say, I don't think you're a hate or either.”

No, I'm maybe I get there. A lot of things you can call me a pompous douche bag of a phone and over eater, but I'm not over over paid certainly, but not a hate or not hate or Tucker. Thank you. grateful to you. Thank you, Mark. See you, man. All right. Next up, continue the conversation of that Charlie Kirk with my executive producer Brian Solomon, talk about a side of Charlie Kirk, most people, unfortunately never got to see Brian is next up.

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And for side effects of GLP1 medications, including box warning, go to roe.co/safety. Again, that's roe.co/safety. Okay, next up and joining me now is we continue to talk about the legacy life times and memories of Charlie Kirkpri and Simon producer of this program who was a personal friend of Charlie's Brian. Welcome in. Tell everybody the origin story of how you met Charlie and how your relationship with him developed.

I was very lucky. I was working at Fox. It was when I first started right out of college and I was very lucky that I got to know him in both a professional sense, but also a personal sense.

And he was a frequent guest on the show. I was working on and we actually met because it was right after he went out to California with Candace Owens to meet Kanye West.

“And I was a big fan of Kanye, right? And so I remember seeing him in the hallway at Fox. He was coming on our show and I said, listen, we had met before just, you know, in passing and I said, you got to tell me about this Kanye meeting.”

And he just said, dude, it was awesome, right? Because he's from Chicago. You loved Kanye. And he told me the whole story about being out there, how Kanye gave him some Yeezies.

We were both very young. I was in his my early 20s. He was he's only a couple years older than me. And at the time at Fox, it wasn't a lot of young people. He was a frequent guest out in Fox as you remember. And it was just one of those things that we started clicking because you got to remember he was traveling every day. He was in a different city every other day. And he was sitting down with people, you know, way older than him way more advanced, you know, he was a very special person. And it became one of those, you know, moments when he was on the road, he got to sit down and just be himself. And when he got to point when he'd come to New York, he would say, hey, let's go get dinner, let's go get lunch.

He loved basketball. And so I always said to him, when you come and you have an extra day, we're going to hit the courts. How bring him to the basketball courts on the west side of Manhattan.

And we'll shoot a rally, we'll get some games. But it was a time for him to kind of just relax and be a normal, I get, you know, whatever he's 26 years old, 25 years old at the time, it's being normal guy at that time, get a little break.

“And that's how that's how I got to know him.”

Why was he so in demanded fox besides the fact that he was young? He, everyone that watches him will say, he, there's something special about him. First of all, he's a genius far beyond anyone doesn't matter what age, but he was just has such a good grasp on politics, cultural life, what people needed, what people wanted. He represented a whole generation of voices, right? The young, the young people looked at him and it could connect with him. And, but it wasn't just the fact that he was speaking for him, but he was a thought leader for a whole generation.

But he also knew how to communicate to people any generation, any gender, any color, it didn't matter who they were. He knew how to connect with you.

He was smart, he was great at speaking, but he was also what I always thought was amazing was that he was thinking about complex things, complex issues.

At such a high level that professional politicians, lifelong politicians never thought about. I'll tell you story one, one time we did a podcast together actually at a fox, we sat down for an hour. I like to think I'm pretty smart guy, been around a lot of smart people in politics. He was thinking about things that I never even thought about, and he had such in-depth perspective on these issues. Things I never heard anyone from the White House talk about, Congress, and he was 27 years old, exploring these things.

He was just so engaging his energy levels unmatched, right? You talked to Tucker Carlson, right? He talked about how he could sit at dinner with him for four hours and he was just keep going. That's who Charlie was, he didn't sleep, he didn't stop his energy levels and his grasp for just learning and talking and communicating and that's what, and that was shown through the camera.

“I think that's what made him so special as a guest.”

How tall was he? I think about six or four. He was a tall guy, well, he had a good jump shot for that size, but he couldn't dunk, could he? When we played, he was having some back issues, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt when we were playing.

He was a tall guy and people who haven't met him don't always know that, but a pretty quiet presence.

He was not as kind of charismatic as he became as a leader, a person in my limited experience with him. He was not super charismatic. He was not like Bill Clinton level of every, he always knows when he's in the room, right? Yeah, yeah, he was, well, that was the amazing thing about Charlie, he was at the end of the day in normal guy, and that's what I think people miss about him because he's rightfully so lionized. And then while he was alive, he was hated on by the left so much, right, he was villainized. But people forget he was just a normal guy.

And when you were with him, he was in the room just going about his day, going about his work, doing what he had to do, talking to the people he wanted to talk to. Or he was a very, he had that normal presence, but I will say, you know, the respect people have for him, I think is unmatched. We used to have, you know, this when you're working at a network, you have Senators Congressman, you know, all the names in the green rooms at all times, right?

“I remember I walked in with him into our green room. We had a couple Senators, we had two Senators in there in a Congressman and a very well-known, puned it, okay, all waiting to be on the show.”

And these guys lit up when Charlie walked into the room. We were just in the hallway, Chit-chan, you know, chopping it up. He walks in one of the Senators who you know is very reserved, I won't say they, but he's a very reserved guy. He has feet fast that I've ever seen this guy move, because people knew that what Charlie was about, you know, what he commanded, right, the influence he had, but also just that he was the guy to know. And so I don't think I've ever been around somebody that had that kind of presence, maybe besides the president, but he was at the end of the day when you said you walk around them, here's just a very normal guy.

I just still remember like his yes, and I still get choked up just thinking about it, you know.

I was working for NBC and it was supposed to be a fun day where we had an anniversary party for our show. And we just, the party starts and someone says to me, hey, did you see what just happened to Charlie? I didn't believe it. And then obviously you see the video and, you know, anyone that's lost somebody and especially someone that's been murdered, right, an unexpected death. They understand like the chilling effect, right, and it's something I don't wish anyone to have, but it's, you just go numb.

“And I remember for the next like 30 minutes, I'm sitting in a corner just watching, waiting for updates, waiting for updates and then I remember when I'm texting, I was texting him, I said,”

just, please pull through this, I'm hoping that, you know, I'm going to get a text message, you know, the next day saying, I'm okay. You know, you just thinking like that, texting the people around him, and you're not here tonight, it's radio sounds. Obviously, you see the video you can understand. And then you remember, I remember seeing the presence tweet or true social posts about, you know, it's an, it's an, he died. And I, I haven't cried in a long time, but I'll tell you why I walked out and I just hit the, I just, I went straight home on the sidewalk and I'm tearing up on my, you know,

when you know somebody like that, when it's a friend of yours, somebody you respect, by the way, it's not often that you get to have a friend, but somebody you actually really respect to because he's so impressive. And it's just, it was terrible. And this is one thing that I do want everyone to know to is that, for the people who don't understand, you know, why some people feel very special, special way about Charlie, you know, it's one thing to lose somebody, it's one thing to, for someone to be murdered, it's another thing for someone to be murdered on camera.

It's another thing for you, for people to have to see someone that they really loved and respected and that they can call their friend to see them being murdered on camera. That's something that people, most people will never have to understand. I hope they don't, but that's something that they should.

“Yeah, you know, I think all the time about it, if I had more time, I'd love to make more content to back Charlie.”

You know, Kirk and one of the articles I want to write is about his texting, because I don't know how the guy did it, it got us on a thousand, a thousand text chains, and I, and I know, I know 100 people who would say, "Oh, Charlie, and I texted all the time." So talk about the guys' facility with his fingers and thumbs.

It's amazing. You hit on the head. He was always there, always responsive.

And even though I know he's having some big event or something, he's always responding. And I remember, it would be 10 o'clock at night and I get a text message saying, "Hey, next month we're hosting our big event. I want you to come." You know, he's thinking about that. I think like, "Who can I bring in? Hey, I'm going to be up in New York. Let's get dinner next week." You know, he's always thinking, even though I know he was just at the White House, I know he was just meeting with this mega donor.

You know, I remember I reached out to him to get a couple of big names, right? A couple of contacts I knew he had connections to. And I'd say, "Hey, if they haven't assistant or press secretary," he said, "No, no, no, here's their personal number." Cole, I mean, say it's Charlie's, you're Charlie's friend. He was that kind of guy where he said, "Use my name." You know, if you knew anything and he provided, you know, and that was the remarkable thing.

“You know, someone with him, like, him with the contacts that he had. He would say, "Just call up Devon Nunes," right?”

And say, "Oh, yeah. I'm Charlie's friend. I was wondering if you could come on." Right? Stuff like that, and at all times of the day, one of the last conversations I had with him over text was a girl who, my sister knows, and she was in high school. She wrote her essay about her hero. Who her hero is? And she wrote about Charlie. My sister sent it to me and said, "How cool is this?" And I sent it to Charlie a couple of weeks before his death.

And I'm glad that was one of the last things he got to read, right? Because someone at such a young age and known that a girl he never met.

He was hurt hero. That's, I think, a very special thing. That was one of my last conversations. Yeah. One of the things that struck me when I went down to his memorial service. And I was there, you know, the security was such as to be there well in advance of the program. And I got to talk to so many people. A lot from Arizona, but some not, who, some knew him well. Some had stories about medium ones. I talked to one of his neighbors.

And just as it's unfathomable, I have the guy at so much time to text people, as you said, he had so much time to help people. And so much, and so much capacity to understand other people and that high human intelligence. It's really, it's really one of the most valuable traits and, and a gift from God because it can be used for evil.

And whether it was understanding Donald Trump, which not many people do, but he did. Or understanding his neighbor, understanding a young girl who wrote an essay about him. The guy just got human situations as well as anybody I've ever met. Yeah. Yeah. He did. And, you know, one of the remarkable things, you know, as you said, he, he was connected to how many people he had.

He had an incredible influence. He was, he was making change.

You know, Tucker said it really well or, you know, he actually commanded an army. He was doing something.

“But yeah, when we would get lunch, you say, hey, you know, I think there's something that just opened up at the White House.”

And I know someone that that works there. You would be really good for that role. You want me to connect to this person. Hey, this show, you know, I'll say, he had amazing vision and amazing eye for talent. And he would say, Jesse Waters is going to be huge. Just quite a few years ago, but he said, Jesse Waters, I know is just going to be the next big star fox. I think you guys working together would be amazing. Let me, let me connect to, he was thinking like that. And he didn't have any, he didn't need to think about my future at all, right? He had much bigger fish to fry.

“But he was that nice where he was thinking about how can I help Brian, right?”

And he also was very loyal and he was in Philadelphia. I remember he called me up. This is maybe maybe 2018, 2019 when he's in Philadelphia. And he got attacked by some members of Antifa. And like I, to bring it back, because he was a very normal guy. So when you're hearing someone call you saying, these guys attack me as I'm walking home as walking home from a meeting in this city. But my point with this is that I remember I said to my, you got to come on. We can't let them get this away with this like, you know, I want you to come on and be and talk about that moment. He came on the next day. We made a work.

“But he remember those types of things. You, he, I, you were there for me when I got attacked. You wanted to put me on.”

So I'm always going to have your back. Those kind of things are very special, especially as you know, in politics and immediate not a lot of people have loyalty.

Charlie definitely did. Yeah. Um, could have so many people who I know who were close friends with Charlie Kirk on the program. But I'm glad I chose the two I did Tucker and Brian saw many producers of this program and great recollections of such an important American. Brian, thank you. Thank you. All right. Let me get back produced a show. That's it for today's program. We'll be back on Tuesday with the brand new episode, including next week, our age for 28, the Democratic presidential candidates.

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