1191: Golf Rules Q&A With The USGA’s Craig Winter

[MUSIC] Better than most. Better than most. Better than most. [MUSIC]

“Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast.”

Solid here for you of the AirPods for the intro traveling a little bit this week. We had an excellent excellent episode for you today. If I may say, we sat down with Craig Winter from the USGA. He's a rules official. I brought in our rules expert, Neil Schuster,

to talk us through this conversation. Important disclaimer here. We recorded this well before the open championship. They'll be no discussion here on the study. A couple of situations happen on Sunday.

Obviously, the Bryce in such ways than happened on Friday. We do talk about the wind and Clark's situation at Chinatown because that kind of came up with the Bryce and stuff as well. But just now, we recorded this before the open championship and I'm really glad. This is coming out now because it's an interesting discussion just on the rules of golf. Two and a way through everything we possibly could add them.

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It's a free online course from the experts at the USDA get started today at USGA dot org slash rules 101. That would be for the delay. Here's our chat with Craig Winter from the USGA. Craig, welcome. Welcome to the program.

It's good to have you. This is a bit of a long time coming for me. I am maybe a recovering rules. No, it all or thought I was. You know, I played at Lange in your golf had to do the rules seminar.

I feel like I have a working knowledge of it. Sometimes the ability to interpret the rules under pressure on call can get to you. But before we get into my selfish questions for you. Craig, can you drag me down with a big club now? Yeah.

I'm admitting it. I'm waving the white flag here.

“And that's why we're bringing you a ring in the expert.”

But give the audience a little background. You roll with the USDA and how you got there. So I grew up in Alaska and golf wasn't really a thing for me in my childhood. But certainly became one when I, I'm a doc go go ducks out in Oregon. Started playing golf and just sort of fell into a job and internship with the Oregon golf association.

I was a boat right. I wasn't into the rules back then, but I quickly caught the bug.

I like a lot of people hit that first good shot.

I kind of had that first epiphany. And it just it just fit with me. And it's the people that I met along the way that kept pulling me in. And 2013, I came on with the USDA rip for Marion last time we were there at the open. And went through the rules modernization process.

And so kind of being in the room for the last 10 years. Whether that's in the governance process or it's at the championship level has seen a lot of things. And that background has really helped kind of guide the way that ultimately the organization currently looks at the rules of golf. It's different now than it certainly was back in 2013 as we all know with 2019 modernization. But golf came to me a little later in life wish I had it younger.

But the rules have been really 20 years now that I've been right in the middle of it. So yeah, and you mentioned 2019 because I feel like that's when the rules became a little more prevalent mainstream.

“And what was the, what was the catalyst of 2019? Was there anything like why was there all of a sudden like we need to refresh in a big way the rules of golf?”

Yeah, it's the rules have gone through these these periodic cycles we we look back at time 1984 was a pretty significant revision before that 1952 was a pretty bigger vision and they kind of rolled almost generationally.

We were at a point getting into the ultimately what led to the 2019 revision with a book that had there was almost 1300 different decisions.

Now, this is kind of getting into the weeds, but all of those were individual rulings that golfers and administrators needed to now to be able to get it right.

And when you start to do that, they're, they're just too big for anybody and that was really about deconstructing, taking everything down to the studs, rewriting the rules and ultimately trying to put together a code. It's not simple, but it's a lot simpler and the goal was to make them easier to understand and apply and we feel like we've done that. We continue that path in 2023 and an hour to space where it's it's more maintenance and just seeing what's happening in the game and we can make some tweaks when it helps, but generally they're in a pretty good spot from from our perspective.

“So what would be give me an example of maybe a rules category that you got that you feel like got simplified that was if you can, you know, if it maybe it's a head in the area, you know, take that wherever you want.”

Yeah, I think I think the simplest place that the rules now like they could they lean on with relief.

It's, it's dropping from knee height, which obviously that's a very visual change, but the main reason we sought to do that was the ball when you drop it from shoulder height, it bounces and moves and there's a lot of different things that can happen. There were nine different, I'm not going to go through them, but nine different things that could happen when you drop the ball where you had to redraw it and now we have this relief area concept. You have a reference point, you measure from that, you have a relief area and you just drop in it and the ball stays there.

That's a much simpler thing to explain to somebody and because of that, people can really just kind of open up and understand the relief rules a little bit better. There's several examples of healing out penalties that came about in 2019 that really don't lead to the emotional pain that whether it's golf administrators or viewers at home, certainly the golfers feel.

“But simplification was a big part of that really certainly the key to unlocking a lot of what we did.”

God, that's interesting.

I would agree, you've simplified the drops of, I still managed to mess it up, cost it a combo in January.

But I think sometimes I get stuck between like I have the old rules that I learned in junior golf and like in my drop in a two times or three, you know, like these little changes have that's I think what's messed me up a little bit. It's not going to help. I would agree. Oh, but I have to, I have fun learning the old stuff. So it makes me laugh because in the middle of like getting a rule explained to him. Neil will interject and say, see, I thought it was it. No, it's not. It used to be that. That's fine that you think that, but that's not what it is like that's not that you don't have to.

He doesn't really even argue with it. It's like, no, see, I thought you I thought matter will meant this.

Okay, well, it doesn't. Let's ignore that. But I actually, so just I had a question on on drops it in and as we, you know, I was going to work this in later, but this came from our message board, smorgus board asked this. Would rules officials ever consider changing the rules on drops to stop players from gaming drops so they can eventually place the ball, right? Because it still happens relatively frequently, right? And I kind of felt like this rule changed was supposed to kind of address that and I'm curious if you if you have feedback on whether you think it's addressed it to us.

If it's addressed it to a sufficient level. Yeah, sorry, we we spent a lot of time, you know, even in getting into the 2019 rules, we had a almost a two year period of getting feedback. Part of what that feedback was was dropping the ball from any height.

“So that the very first version of the rules that we released getting into 2019 said you dropped the ball from any height and you need to drop the ball in the really fair and it has to stay.”

No drop drop place, you just have to drop it and that's to stay and golfers as they do, they went in every single direction and every hypothetical and this idea that you'd run into a bunch of situations where you couldn't get the ball to stay. Pictures were coming in, well, I couldn't get it to stay here, how am I supposed to make this rule work and and candidly like everybody that thought they could sort of broke that part of what we were trying to do and how did we back out of that? Well, we raised the height to knee height and we said, look, this is going to be simpler, it's going to be faster.

Can players still get to placing, yeah, they can, we knew that was going to be the case, but trying to find an alternative to that, which we could get into placing if you want. It's it's just really not quite tentable because we lose the randomness and. The place flow would be a huge challenge for us, but this knee height drop gives us kind of this sweet spot between the ball's not going to roll too far, but yeah, players still can drop on the edge sometimes and be able to place. We don't love that, but there's really not an easy way around that.

Another specific question that with the 2019 changes, it feels like the idea of intent was introduced in certain parts of the game. Well, you know, Zac Johnson and Augusta, he hits the team marker by accident, like go ahead and reload, brother. But then you see cam in an antenna, yeah, yeah, and put then you see cam young at Cadillac and it's like his ball, you know, he didn't intend, there was no intent to move it, but he, you know, he caused it to move.

Where am I getting that all wrong? Yeah, that this is a tough one to unpack intent is all through the rules. It wasn't first introduced in 2019. Their standards all through the rules, some of them have intent, some of them don't, you hit your ball into a penalty area. No, no, no, no, virtually certain is the standard that's used, there's no intent in that.

Making a stroke, there's intent. That's kind of where it fits in with Zac Johnson, you know, his ball was in the teen area.

The key thing there is is actually not in play yet, he hasn't started the whole.

So he hasn't really kind of activated his golf ball yet, it's sitting in the tee, sitting on the tee. If you accidentally hit it, you haven't made a stroke. And you've moved to ball that's not in play, so there's no penalty. When you get to Cam Young, which is a really a very different situation, he's in the fairway, he's hit yet another awesome drive.

“And he's he's addressing his ball and the question there is, did he cause it to move?”

It's not about intent at all. It's whether or not his ball and play was moved by Cam or by something else. And ultimately the causation, which is is also known or virtually certain, he put his club down right next to it and it moved right away. The way that standard would apply, those two things out up to that's on Cam. Unfortunately, that's the one stroke penalty puts it back.

That happens on the green, there's no penalty now. And so there's a lot of things that you're kind of putting together in that same question about, like, how does intent fit in? Green radio materials, what you see on tour, kind of jump into another space of intent. There are the restrictions that we have at the highest level of the game, they have these approved books, they can put notes in them,

they can only put notes in based on ultimately what they see and what they feel.

There's a lot of integrity built into that and how the game works is all, it's really through standards. That's the way the rules are trying to put things together. Intent is certainly prevalent in a lot of other areas. But specifically for that case, it's really more about understanding ball and play in areas of the course where your ball is. The green, your safe, the tea, your safe, everywhere else you've got some risk there.

The came on explanation and the ZAC Johnson one, so what, but was the intent on the green explained that to me and he said that was, was that changed in 2019 or updated. So when we when we go to whether it's axon on movement of the ball on the green. Yeah, take us all the way back to 2016 in Oakmont, DJ was kind of the beginning of that. I'm going to call it house a card's falling or us continuing to move in the direction of less penalties for ball movement. All the way into the current with Shane Lowry, what happened at the Oakmont Championship report rush now.

There's yet another exception to ball's moving and getting penalties. Well, on the putting green, it doesn't matter if you move your ball by accident.

“The only thing you can't do is move your ball deliberately without first marking it.”

Every other situation you're not going to get a penalty and that makes the green much simpler. No question. We also think you have a repair damage on the green now as well. So greens are kind of a safe space where before back in pre 2019 times. Referee is what would actually have kind of like this. Oh, the players on the green now. There's all these things I have to look at.

Players aim pointing on my gosh, are they touching their line? What do they just fix? Was that a ball marker? Was that something else? We're much more relaxed now as referees because there are less penalty situations.

But but ultimately the intent side of of how everything fits in the game of golf.

It any time you see the player does something to do something which could also be improving. That that's kind of code for intent in the rules and it candidly is everywhere. There's there is a misconception that there's a lot more intent in the rules from 2019 on that's really not the case. We we use it when it makes sense. We we have some black and white very just sort of matter fact based standards, but there are intent based standards as well.

“And I think the best example that's probably improving your conditions that's probably the easiest way to explain intent and why we have it there philosophically.”

So if a question I would have is you know we see a lot of reading the why going on with out of the rough you know program but you know any any golfer. You know guys taking a club to y'all hey I'm going to maybe I'll hit a seven wood here and then they go back and hit six iron like what that's one where I'm like man that feels in it. I don't know what what what's the what's the what's the policy there on top of that too like just I'm curious on that same kind of category is like guys that when they get in thick fescue and everyone of Clark doing this at the US open like going around a different parts of it and feeling what the club was doing in different parts of the rough.

Don't know if that's why it done don't think it was but didn't feel right to me and I'm curious as it relates to what you know as as well.

So when when we when we see it's the typical situation where there's something that shows up on social media.

“I remember that golf has been much different about watching video, you know I candidly like Dustin caught us in a space where go back to 2016 we didn't have sophisticated video whether it was us or really any other.”

Organizer to be able to quickly address those types of things we've gone so far past that now where we have referees watching video in real time. There's something that happens like what wind em for for for your viewers or listeners at home that that he was on 9th green he he did a lot of practice swing. She just does that everywhere it's not just a chin a cock it wasn't just on that whole he's trying to find the feel right and so he did something that looked to a lot of people like he stepped you know as it was said like deliberately behind his ball and he improved it well.

We have plenty of camera angles that we can look at the the perception that you see and you guys do so much video.

When you have those zoom lenses everything gets smushed if you look at that video it looks like people are walking five feet behind him as well.

And there are a hundred yards back. Yeah.

“So everything was compressed and yes he stepped close to his ball but he stepped well behind it so he wasn't stepping down behind it and and ultimately the practice swings were well way right of it.”

So he wasn't improving his cats for that shot that's more of the video perception. Yeah. Neel to your question. And so I frankly just want to fall up on that super quick. I saw that I told the group what you said I was more curious of him hitting different parts of the rough.

Of the fescue to kind of see how the club would react to it seemed. Great area to me of like testing the lie and the surface of the rough or the thickness of the rough and that's where I know how that rule actually works. Yeah, so so there's no there's no restriction on testing. And when you're dealing with grass or other natural conditions testing and trying to find a good space or or a good feel kind of trying to simulate what you're going to have.

“The only thing that you have to be concerned about when you're doing that is actually improving your conditions affecting your stroke so lie stance swing line apply.”

If you're not affecting right around your ball where you're going to swing through it or where your ball is going to go. You don't have to worry about any of that. So find a spot and that's ultimately what windom's doing he's like looking for a grass that's similar and he's he's like a pretty twitchy guy so he does a lot more that looks erratic than what other like a Scotty would do right. When you get into and this ties directly into conditions affecting your stroke with Neil's question when when players are in thick rough and they happened to still have the driver in their hand and.

You know. And I said truly like it makes me want to say why why why do you do that. What what we're looking at is whether or not there was improvement for one you know if the grass gets compressed. There is space in the rules for you to address the ball so you can put your club down behind it.

You can what's called just ground your club lightly and and all that means is you're using the way to the club you're not pressing the whatever the club ways you just you're basically letting it go.

That improvement is in fact allowed it it it's not a clean line from I'm using my seven wood when I am really thinking about using my six iron. The the players that do that that are kind of the bowl in the china shop. Those are uncomfortable to watch on TV there are a lot of different times when you're looking at video saying did that actually improve. Very rarely is it ever a case of improvement behind the scenes there have been players that have been talked to about that haven't led to penalties.

But you know we might see something in the future where is just so clear that that player did beyond what ultimately they're allowed to do in the rules where it does turn into what this would be a two stroke penalty. There there's some checks and balances though. That's it. That's it. Not just they would not just one. Yeah, I'd be improvement if it if if what happened was a breach if they went beyond what is lightly grounding their club and they're allowed to improve by lightly grounding, but if they do something more than that and they actually improve that they would get the two stroke penalty it's.

This is one of those cases where there's there's not kind of gradiated penalties for different acts, but if a player improves by doing something they're not allowed to there this in case they're liar they're swing. There isn't like that the one stroke for small acts two strokes for two acts. Playing the courses you find it which is really what this is based off of is so fundamental to the game that it's just it's the general penalty it's two strokes and stroke play. It would be the loss of the match play and we don't have the gradiated or escalating penalties that we might see in other areas.

Okay, so zoom out a little bit. I was playing in men's league last night and I with a couple guys that were you know can't really not very good.

having red and yellow penalty areas like when you talk about simplifying the game I and I think that's you know I've had beginners ask me that like what's what's the difference I know you get a little bit more options but almost philosophically like why why are there red versus yellow.

I want to start like super like you know I'm in fifth grade learning the game.

I know I know but I'm more curious about going back and understanding like the you know we skip over that part solid like what was the you know the thesis behind having red and yellow and different options.

“Yeah, yellow has yellow has less options read the only thing that's different about red is it has the lateral relief option has everything else that the yellow has.”

When you hit into a penalty area you can take stroke and distance you can take what's called back on the line relief. It's not line of flight it's it's the point that you last entered and you line it up with the whole and you just create a straight line you go and drop behind the penalty area on that line. And then you have lateral relief which is to club links all those are one stroke penalties but the the fundamental like kind of the this this kind of philosophy of why are there two different versions of that.

All those of golf knows that whole right that second shot into the green what what's the difference if you were to mark that entire penalty area read and somebody hits it.

“The near the putting green area to the right of it and then they go and down onto the beach and the Pacific Ocean dropping if that was red dropping two club links from where it last crossed and shipping out.”

That's a that's a pretty significant relief procedure to to be able to drop and make a part to great part but that whole that whole traditionally mark yellow the reason for that as the rule speak to is you're protecting the integrity of the whole if you mark that whole yellow. But that they told will typically almost always be mark yellow and there's normally a drop someone that's back across the other side of the canyon and what that's doing is it saying that if a player hits it up and they they just they flash it straight out right or they hit it short and just goes down into the the beach short of the whole.

Or they hit that shot that kind of crosses land up by the green and then it goes into the ocean they're all being treated the same they didn't navigate the challenge on that whole which is to hit it straight enough and far enough over that canyon to be able to get it to stay up on land and when they don't do that if you don't market red. And they don't have the two club like the option in the back of the line options going to put them you know Japan or somewhere quite far field yeah and so that then they're probably going to be either taking stroke and distance or the drop zone because back on the line really isn't an option for them and so philosophically what's that what's that distinction doing well it's it's intended to to allow the whole to play as it's intended.

“Where you all are you know saw grass the 17 imagine that whole red like that would just be such a different experience for golf and how do we protect the integrity of that whole you mark the island yellow.”

And now golfers can't drop when they you know they air mail they once get off the green they hit something that spins back off the front they can't drop right where it went in they have to drop under the yellow options which doesn't include the two club length.

And so that's really what that's about it's it's a both the architect designing holes and then ultimately those that run competitions at that golf course or the committee that just sets it up.

They're trying to preserve what that holds all about. So you'd market interesting. You mentioned TPC saw grass there because that's right where my mind went but I was thinking more along lines of the 18th hole the 16th hole there's we tend to see drop controversies at TPC saw grass with the way the water works into the fairways on a lot of those holes. You're describing at that way my my question would be like why why wouldn't 18 that water all done the left also be marked yellow we typically see that as red we see difficult conversations happening really difficult to track especially the highest level the game with a lot of money involved of.

We did that while cross did it not cross based you know based off just gut and I test that as you described it that way I'm like well that just seems like it should be yellow and you you didn't navigate the water you know what what would constitute a red there basically. Compared to what you just the example you gave about eight and 17. Yeah, you know if you think of if you think of 18 saw grass or even going back to pebble pretty pretty famous hole will be at next year with the US open. Those holes you're not kind of hitting to an area that's that's sort of the safe haven you have everywhere on the world the bailout right and if you overhook it you end up getting getting into the penalty area.

You know that's not about protecting the integrity of the whole that's just kind of a rules question that's trying to be answered.

“I wouldn't say that the 18th that at saw grass is about trying to somehow navigate that penalty area in a way that you've crossed it.”

You're trying to keep the ball right enough that you don't get wet and when you do go into that. Dropping just right outside loud really is is a it's a certainly a sufficient option to be able to give the one stroke penalty and then play your next shot quite a bit different than trying to hit to the 17th the island green.

You know that the the test there is very different for a golfer could it committee marked that yellow they could.

But what that would be doing solid is it would basically mean every every player is hitting stroke and distance because when you line that the the whole up with where that hole is because it has the bend in it.

“Every time you go back on the line you're you're either ending up with the tea or maybe even left of it.”

So forcing stroke and distance you're almost saying like let's just mark it out of bounds left and that's certainly not the intent of that golf hole. But follow up on drop zones are those only associated with with yellow. There are there an extra relief option for rules that that would have the player taking relief when when a committee sees it you know it's not the best option that we have based on what the rule is giving. Then that drop zone might be put in as an extra option for the player sometimes with penalties sometimes for free.

Okay and follow up on on red and maybe a unique example but I remember we played at Colonial 10th hole there's a creek up the right side kind of on your approach and then over then the 11th hole goes out to the right and so if you hit it over that creek. You know there's there it's in play on the other side of that creek if I was to hit it into it's a red and it's marked red. That was an option maybe before 2019 or am I completely making that up yeah back to the junior golf things that the the opposite edge drop was part of the rules before 2019.

This is going to kind of get into some of the red and yellow discussion as well. A lot of golf courses mark a whole lot more red than they do yellow they've done that for a long time well before the 2019 rules and what happened in the 2019 rules is we intuitively feel like golfers understand to club like dropping better than back on the line for sure. But the reason that marking red used to be restricted was because of the opposite edge situation and I'm going to take a slightly different hole will get back to Colonial but think of the old courses first hole.

You've got the creek running right in front of it the burn and you hit your ball and it a great driver a second and it rolls into the to the burn if you go to the opposite side.

You go in and you're 25 yards from the hole and you go to the opposite side 25 yards from the hole you're putting. That's what the opposite edge would give you. That's been removed from the rules entirely now I'm not saying that Sinanders is going to have the spoken burn mark red but what what it what taking away that opposite edge as a default it can still be added as local rule. Making ways to default means that you can mark a whole lot of other areas red without the fear that players are going to be negotiating the penalty area with a drop.

“That's what these this ultimately this is taken away you can't just take a penalty stroke and get over it.”

If you think of a Colonial or if I could I think viewers like the the 13th of Augusta is a really good example of this. When when you hit to when you hit on a hole where it does make sense where players are going to be they're going to be in a if you if those those think about 13th a lot of balls go left into that penalty area and players dropping up on the hillside. It's pretty difficult for me. We yeah how well we we see a lot of players drop in the fairway right and they if you clearly see their ball going left side but then they drop on the fairway with into club links.

That that's because that local rule is put in effect for the masters and for general play at a gas to national where players on whole 13 they can drop on the opposite edge. Our players are not going to be dropping into the left side when they go on the right but it's really almost entirely from the left when they go in on the left side of that up on the hillside. They then drop on the right side at the same distance from the whole.

You know, how do rules get confusing oftentimes it's because you see something that happens in a golf tournament will they do this on tour.

“It gets explained as an opposite edge and this is this is how it works and then okay well this is what I'm going to do to and that might not be an option at your golf course so when you.”

When you see your buddy that wants to take a half an hour to walk across the pond to go over there to play. Can you saw it on tour a second and then we don't that's not an option for the red drop you just drop right here. This is comforting for me. I might or it wasn't crazy that was you know or if it's a local was not used to be an option and it still can be if it's implemented so total vindications. Indeed yes yes.

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For them, Robert Deque and all you 10 hb golf dot com back to the spot. You mentioned something back there. I want to circle back on you mentioned something back on the on the greens a while ago about a point you mentioned something about any point. Yeah, I just will throw this at you. I look at it doesn't feel right with the game of golf. It feels like and the hypothetical rule I've made up in my head is you should not be able to straddle your line of play to get a feel of the of the earth slope to inform your decision on how much a put breaks would be like

How I would propose something I've thought about that for point eight seconds don't know the process of changing rule or any of that. How does what I just said. In some capacity with the USA of writing and creating the rules and also enforcing them and the challenge that comes with enforcing them if I was to say something like that. What kind of challenges come up with with maybe creating a rule around something like that. In some ways we have you to say we've done this to ourselves we we. We talked about that solid we we've we've talked chatter about this this idea of of getting understanding of what your pot's going to do.

No question we have been very clear that we believe fundamental to the game of golf is a golfer being able to read the line of play on the putting green with their feet their eyes their feel a skill as we believe it right now is being able to determine the slope. We we we currently see that as a skill that some golfers have in others don't. Aim point and putting systems in general they they're very sophisticated there's no question that they help golfers understand break and speed and slope and you take someone like Bryson who is who is kind of even taking that further than most most golfers have any idea of and.

Ultimately where and how did we get here and where are we going we continue to have that conversation but the.

The changes that happened in 2022 with the green rating books local rule that really took green rating books out of the professional game there's not a lot of golfers that look at books anymore and so.

“I feel like we've taken away the answer key so not everybody has that information but there is a certainly a set of golfers that are very reliant on their feel and whether it is the systems that you see you know that the.”

I'm Scott so the world that we're doing a point well well before the greens books were were were ultimately removed via local rule there's so many more players now that are really quite good at estimating slope even to the half a percent. But certainly for us is looked at as a skill that we like seeing it on TV just as much as any other golfer when it seems like it's taking too much time though we don't but there there are pace of play rules that can address.

It's really just a function of time and there's there's there are so many things that are happening with pace of play with ultimately with the data available that is helping to address players that are particularly slow. We don't love to see it and then just as much in this conversation is is putting your marker down. And getting your ball perfectly lined up with exactly where ultimately you think this put's going to break that whole process of precision on the putting greens. Is is still something that we talk about in every single rules of golf committee meeting.

“We're in a better place than we were what when the answer key was in the hands are we in the perfect spot probably not but getting rid of a point or the ability to even measure slope straddle in the line.”

We were kind of in that space even pre 2019 when we said you couldn't you couldn't actually step on your line of play and so what where was the line of play you'd see that happening that was kind of what I was speaking to referees.

Pre 2019 having this like oh my gosh the players are on the green and now I have to be super attentive and hope they don't break rules.

We would get right back into that again and part of rule making is about just a practical governance effect that happens in the game and I'm not sure that that something like what you've suggested in eight seconds to thought would really work in the game of golf. Whether it's at the highest level or at the club level and those are the things we have to balance when we're thinking about what would work and ultimately what wouldn't to try to get totally where we want to be. Yeah I definitely understand like the the almost like court of law lawyer argument of you know what is straddling the line you know what happens if you're you know you're jumping across your line to avoid stepping in somebody else you know they get.

You know I see the bumpers on a lot of this stuff and how challenging a lot of this are but you let us write in a pace of play here which.

“But a lot of a lot of questions about this I think I assuming all the way back.”

As I've researched and learned more about pace of play I you know I've developed some theories on it and I my a theory of mine is it.

It's what happens on the in the process of holding out especially at the highest levels of professional golf the process of holding out is what causes a lot of the. Backups, pace of play you know issues that that come up what zooming out from from your guys perspective what do you guys study about pace of play what have you learned. And is that you know is that in the assertion that you would you would agree with I guess is to where a lot of pace of play issues come with and then we can get into enforcement and how you build rules around that stuff.

Are you are you advocating for gaming is out. What is that.

You're speaking to things slow down the putting green one and the the.

The analogy I was using is that the whole is the toll booth right and three cars got to go through one toll booth to get on to the next part of the highway and when you can all go once and you got to go. You know, and then the the faster the greens get the more the heart of the three and a half footer is the longer that process takes and it. It's snakes it's way back through the golf course is kind of what I would assert to you know which leads us into like why is this guy taking three minutes over this shot.

Well, it doesn't matter that position bubble that's where I'm kind of leading to but I want to at least understand if it is the pit is that how you guys view. Where pace of play issues come from in golf because to me it's just not people taking too long on the T box. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's not anyone part of the game but the greens you have tricky locations and fast greens and take his back to Chinacock wind. That that is that is a recipe for slower rounds than then really any other you know you get you get deep rough.

Searching for balls can certainly contribute to that but when guys have to hack out or hit it up they're they're not taking as much time is really grinding over. They just missed another short put they missed another short put and that adds quite a bit of time to it. So greens can can have an outsized effect on how long around takes.

“But but I think that the whole the the idea of pace of play it is there's so many things that play into that how much space you have how many players you have in your field what the weather looks like.”

Of course that up certainly affects it it's it's completely disconnected from the recreational game what people see at home and their daily play versus what they see at the tour level or at a championship. That we run there they're it's hard to even compare the two but yeah a lot a lot of different different things playing a pace of play for sure. Well I'd say one other thing that plays in is you know I'm a plan MGA events or New Jersey's golf association is. Lost balls you know looking for balls but also like you know failure to hit a provisional and but I've got a specific example kind of a provisional question here because this happened on a trip we just took to.

Where the penalty area ends and I'm I've gotten stuck in between on like are you allowed to hit a provisional or does that become a stroke in distance.

“You know like the pay it's like oh man I got do I have to go all the way up identify that it's a lost ball and then go back and hit stroke and distance or you do you.”

I'm not really explaining the question well but you get stuck between like am I am I am I recusing my rights to the penalty area the the lateral relief if I hit that provisional and it ends up in the penalty area generally. Yes you are but but there's there's provisional balls that it's just a complicated rule in general you.

If a golfer believes their ball might be lost outside of a penalty area or it might be out of bounds there they're allowed to play a provisional ball that provisional ball is is.

It is stroke and distance just in case I need to come back and play under stroke and this that's the purpose of it so if you if you if you've hit a ball and do an area you know it's a new course you're not familiar with and you're like might not find that. As long as you're not playing it because the only reason you think you might not find it is it's in a penalty area. Then you're allowed to play a provisional you think it might be lost outside of a penalty area or it might be out of bounds you could walk up there and be like oh my gosh this entire area is a penalty area I didn't know that.

Well you didn't know that so you were allowed to play a provisional ball when you did that's exactly my question.

Because I've run into that in an event where like a you know someone in my group is like am I allowed to play a provisional and you just get a loop I'm like man I don't we don't know where that penalty area ends and.

“So because I think that's a pasting to that's why I brought it up now is that that that that horrible feeling of let me run back to the tea.”

Well the groups you know on the tea and you're you got to hit a quick what things start moving really quick. That's that if you if you take your if you kind of take take this let us play out of if your ball is outside the penalty area and it's lost or you're not able to tell that it's in the penalty area and you lose it where do you go you go back to the tea. Yeah, so the provisional ball rule is it's fully like everything about it is about saving time or trying to so being able to play a provisional ball before you go forward is is what.

Ultimately means you don't have to run all the way back you you go to where your provisional is and you play that now if you do find that your ball is in fact in a penalty area or you can't find it but you know or you're virtually certain it's in it. You can take penalty area relief at that point okay and so that that's my question it's like now I can now like that provisional I can pick that up and I could do lateral or you know my other option. But yeah, in fact you have to get rid of your provisional at that point and and then you have your penalty area relief options and provisional is tricky because you end up with like to decuse happened because you've got two balls and you can only use one typically and.

I wish it was simpler but it's not. Yeah the hard the hard situation here is like let's say it's a you know a big hazard your knee or sorry not hazard no it can't use that word anymore I'm okay. I don't any area you know either color you know that you got to drive over in some way and you got really close to clearing it and it might be outside of water but in grass but is it playable but didn't clear anything. And your options like I might be able to get up there might be able to play it if I can find it it's in some heavy stuff near there and then you get up there and it's not playable.

Then you have to go back like if you didn't click that's the part that feels like you should be able to be like well in case I can't play it can I hit a provisional and I what I would do is that that provisional can't then be the provisional you use for the penalty area you almost have to. You can use a provisional for a penalty area like that's the that's the that's the correct point is like I didn't know this was penalty area I hit a provisional not knowing that I'm in the clear but it's not. In that situation correct me from wrong correct if you get up there and you find your ball is in the penalty area you don't get to play the provisional.

“No right like it wasn't a penalty to have hit a provisional but you don't get to play if you if you've did so and you hit the ball and then you have to go back and hit the ball as a straight in the scenario.”

And in the scenario you you can you can take penalty area relief you cannot play your provisional solely in your case. You are not sure if you carried the penalty area but you're not worried about your ball being lost outside of it there's no provisional option there correct that that's a that's a situation where you you do unfortunately need to go up and check.

So you're giving there's there's penalty area options there's still so it doesn't fit nicely into that and that that is a pace of play challenge for sure.

Yeah that one's insoluble. You see that come up enough when it's like well the the only the last point of that I cleared is like 30 yards in front of the T box anyways I'd rather reach here you know to me that that's the part that gets. That gets kind of tricky but yeah definitely can can lead to some pace of play issues but so back to back to pace of play just kind of at the highest level what we see. We see guys take over 40 seconds to hit a shot quite frequently. Can you explain why that's not a penalty and just kind of the general philosophy of what leads to penalty what leads to enforcement of pace of play and why things are the way they are.

“And in terms of how the rules are written and in force because I think that the consent the thought out there is that the the governing you know USDA and other other tours made a rule and nobody ever enforces the rule they just.”

I tested and say like oh that's not a penalty because we don't feel like stroke in this guy but I have a feeling it's a little bit different from a structure standpoint. Yeah nobody cares about pace of play and professional golf I promise. No it is it's largely it's it's what the rules committee is doing all tournament that's that's the main focus yes. There's some rulings that are given and pretty much pretty much a golf tournament is getting the golf course set up in the morning and then and then monitoring pace of play the rest of the day.

“There's there's some things that do happen that that that kind of deviate from this and I can speak even to the end of Shinaka and to the senior open at Siyota that we just had.”

Both of those kind of went with different different examples here but largely what pace of play is about is the policy that the respective organization has an effect so when you look at the rules of golf it says. The language there is that golfers should play generally play their shots and 40 seconds or less right that that's that's a recommendation that's in the rules and and hopefully most golfers follow that. When you look at the policies that are in effect at the highest level there are there are times that are in there 40 seconds 50 seconds if you're first to play in several different situations on the LPJ has kind of a cumulative per whole timing.

These can do what they feel is best to ultimately get players around the golf course but there's a lot of things that are happening that are outside of that so.

Most pace of play policies have a time per whole which kind of aggregates over the round and they also have something that is respective to the group in front of you this kind of position concept. And so when you think of a tour model you have players that are in starting times and when groups and this is generally true most groups will eventually fall behind the time that the committee has a lot of. When a group is both behind the time the committee has a lot of which you could see that between you know a three some you are easier course faster course to play will be in like the four 30 range.

And for golfers at home that may be like gosh that's so long but there's just so much more happening to the tour event of course is quite a bit harder on a really difficult course you'd see that almost up and like the four 50 sometimes a little bit even higher than that. And when golfers go over that time they're now susceptible to this other part of their policies which is the position how are you in relation to the group in front of you. There's a definition for that largely how most of golf works is that if you step on to a par four par five t and the whole clears before you get your t shots off all three of them.

You're going to be out of position and now that does vary by some tours but that's mostly what you see in men's professional golf par three is a little bit different.

But if you're in that position so over time and out of position most policies will have okay we have a warning and that's not always given most time it is just kind of get the warnings out of the way.

“If you get past that warning and you're still out of position you could be put on the clock and those types of decisions are kind of where I think most of the public doesn't really see how it all fits together if you think of a typical tour event.”

You see in groups how long does it take to play a par four it's normally like 14 15 minutes to play it par threes you play a much quicker and when you start to have gaps in the groups.

What he might be taking a long time on the seventh hole and you're like why aren't they why aren't they getting after this player because on the ninth hole there's a there's a wait we know there's a wait there's a five minute wait on the tea and there's just no value in putting that player on the clock or that group on the clock at that point and then timing them right up into now they're going to wait. And so those things are happening in real time and that's why the committee is and you see him on radio all the time they're they're talking electronics now show where groups are on the golf course there's pretty good tracking of that the way the systems fit together.

You know, PGA tour shot link system is really quite capable and and trying to figure some of that out to you so it is a system pace of play more than it is we're looking at one specific player and and we have an issue with them golf is much better at the highest level of identifying. The problem players and they get quite a bit more attention than others even as much as like they can be timed completely outside of the typical your warrant now you're on the clock they can be timed at any time because those those specific players are kind of put on notice right you've been a problem for so long your your so far outside the norm.

But there could be situations where you're just playing a shot over on the rough and you know there's a way that next to you well you just took three minutes to play that shot and there's going to be consequences for it so.

In the case of play is something that that organizations did you look back at articles from the 1900s and.

I think.

“I think one other thing I'll say if you if you think about what happens towards the end of Saturday or Sunday.”

If you think about what happens towards the end of Saturday or Sunday golf is a production it's on TV that there is an entertainment value to it and there are TV windows and.

We are managing to a TV window as well and when golfers go out and.

Shockingly they play fast right why are you guys playing so fast today you've been slow all week and now you're suddenly fast and so we're like a is there only we can slow these people down like they're just they're going to finish so far in front of the window. And obviously the other side happens when you over sheep the window so some of the broadcast complications can fit into that as well where you feel like you're going so fast that you don't want to be warning or.

“Trying to move a group forward because you know you're going to blow your TV window and then you get down to the end and it's like do we really want a time a group.”

If you saw this it's a soda there was there was about a just over a whole gap so they were out of position not by much this is like a half a stroke out of position.

But putting a group on the clock right there as they're coming up towards the end when we already know we're going to beat our TV window also doesn't really make sense in the scope of the competition itself so all of that stuff fits together in a whole. And you have an organization whether it's the PGA tour the LPA one of the governing bodies you know Berkdale next week. You're trying to manage the golf to be able to finish the competition in time and largely on Thursday and Friday that means just trying to get the golf done.

“Saturday and Sunday there's that different element of we're actually trying to fit this with fit this in within the the window of time that we have that we've we've promised our partners and TV to to try to ultimately have that last but hit so.”

A lot of stuff going on that people won't see up ahead of them or behind them. I do think golf has gotten so much better at the highest level with data and technology to be able to identify the really slow players though and that's that's that's been a big part of some of the changes that you've seen. It's not going to make grounds for hours but it certainly does stop the the individual players from from really just being cataclysmic to the pace of play. I had a conversation with somebody from the SGA several years ago now at this point about just studies the U.S.J. had done on pace of play because a lot of this stuff applies way beyond just competitive golf in general as well and the conclusion.

Didn't make sense to me at the time but over time has made more sense of. At big part of it being tea time spacing and which which makes sense and you see you see tournaments that had the luxury like Augusta of you know a smaller cut you know small field to start with and a smaller cut.

And I think it's a lot of fun and it's a lot of fun and maybe even the first few days I don't know we'll have a open space maybe at 18 minute gap or a 20 minute gap between tea times and that can have a tremendous effect on pace of play with the you know otherwise one ruling in one place that takes a long time just is going to snake all the way back through the golf course and when you get.

And the reason on both sides of the golf course and the circles that go around that it just creates a whole different set of challenges and that's where like your local moony.

If they're spacing out three times with four people eight or nine minutes apart you have no shot no shot on a constant pace of play six some of them. It's it's a yeah it spaces the biggest fix no question and that I think crazy you see that you see that in the signature events are smaller fields on the gator and and pace of plays so much better at those than it then it ever is in the full field events. US open one fifty six. It's tough it's hard to get that many players around the course in two ways we have luxury of daylight but we put them on a pretty difficult golf course with the tough set up and yeah trying to finish golf Friday and Saturday we're we're patting ourselves on the back when we get them all done in those two days.

“And you know that I think about a lot of TIO relief and the free line of sight relief it feels personally feels wrong to me that a guy can in some ways the course can play easier than it would for us mere mortals and.”

You can blow it off the planet behind grandstands you can just get kind of a free drop and I'm wondering if there's if the committees looked into that at all and just thoughts I understand you got to keep. But I just don't feel right and sometimes it's like your way you're getting TIO relief from the you know shot link tower like for you know on another like something that's like man had that feels like we're stretching the.

Is in an obstruction type of things so just just one of the throw that out as as a topic that we've talked about a good amount.

Yeah, I some of the greatest moments ever in golf entertainment or during speaking TIO so.

“And just throw that in there we would lose all this great but I do look TIO's there there is much.”

But an ops rules conversation that happens before the competition is they are anything else there there.

It feels awfully it's that wouldn't have been there when when this player hit that shot so the weekend golfer wouldn't have had this in their way either whether it's a grandstand or a shot link tower.

Shot link towers are are particularly not where they because they they are all over the golf course right they provided some awesome benefits. Obviously the vision vision that you have of what's happened on a tour event when you're not there that that comes from those towers so.

“Those are designed to swing a player out so that they have what is ultimately really from from that object being on their line of sight plus just a one club length corridor.”

There are some incredibly fortuitous relief situations I. But recall one that we saw as well as as you all saw at Pinehurst at the open with with Bryson on the fifth hole swing it out and having a clear shot at the green. There there are objects to get placed on golf course when the circus comes to town and there's not really a good way to to treat them differently we we did change that rule in 2019 to provide. It's really doesn't change what you're speaking to necessarily but it does give the player the option to drop from from it like a like another building like a car path where they can just take physical relief like we all do day to day but.

The the concept of line of sight we need to keep that in there because the player that ends up behind something when they wouldn't otherwise be we don't want to hit no over the grandstand. What are the relief option what they have to get back around and inside is probably just stroke and distance so what relief makes sense and how does it work players sometimes hit it off the planet and that seems like they're getting great relief. That's really just part of the part of the package that comes with tournament golf and and all the infrastructure that we bring in.

There are times when you know in our rules committee will we'll speak about things like can we can we untether some of this stuff with the way that we look at relief and should players not be able to get relief in some of the situations that we do but. These come in all different shapes and sizes and situations and and right now we feel like the rule is in pretty good shape the the four to it is examples are also buffered by players not getting relief and that does happen pretty frequently as well.

It ends up being pioneers to ends up being chinacocked this year we have the ability to move some of that infrastructure so we can try to avoid that years to come.

“That's really where that starts is that connection between the ops team which is.”

All different challenging set set of circumstances they're dealing with it's amazing what they do to get tournament golf going. We have the easy job but to be able to show hey can we move this thing next time because it's really kind of getting in the way.

I don't know if it's a player who got really from the building to and that felt incorrect because that building's always there.

So they went out and it was kind of hot 110 degree heat but they moved a crane about 15 feet and we actually had a couple situations where players would have ended up getting really from the building because of the crane. So thankfully that did happen because the the the the ask it was a big ask for them to be able to get the entire crew out there to move it but it paid off in the end. I got a quick half baked idea you can run this up the chain if you'd like but a quick half baked idea went in doubt on a shot length tower it's like is that in the way or is it not in the way.

And you're leaning towards giving them relief just say no you know what hit it and if you hit the tower we'll go we'll revisit it you get to replay it and you get a drop but otherwise hit it like all right just hit the ball.

But very thin wire there I bet you don't hit it and if you do will give you relief I don't think that's a serious solution but it kind of could work I don't know if draft things might go out.

So all right what do you think about that. All right a couple a couple kind of quick hitter for for the weekend warrior so I was playing in an event a month ago and I was taking relief from ground under repair and there having to be a rules official nearby so just confirm with them. It has it one club length or two and he hit me with a phrase that I loved but I don't know if it's true. He said it's if it's free it's one and if you're paying it's two.

“Does that line up like is that because I love stuff like that just to help people help myself remember these things you know if it's if it's free you get one club length if you're paying you get to what how does that how's that stack up.”

Well there's two two relief options in the rules louder relief for penalty areas louder relief for ball and play well that's it. Okay everything else is one now whether there's penalty or not so I there was there was more truth to that pretty 2019. Okay now it makes in this guy up to solid. Now I think you probably do yourself a disservice using that because I think the one example I would share is stroke and distance you play from a tough spot you kind of maybe have a tree in the way and you hit this the shot that doesn't quite turn the way you thought and.

You end up taking stroke and distance you have a club length from where you last played. So that's a penalty relief situation where you get one and and that's the significant departure is in relief where we have relief areas now you never drop on a spot like what happened pre 2019 in several different relief procedures even in bed at ball you get a club length from where you're ball was embedded and so. It's one for all situations except for lateral where it's two that's probably better as a as a.

“A phrase to remember to assume one other than lateral but then I'm thinking about the two and two rule around the greens with a you got a sprinkler in your way is that that would be.”

Well, that's that's one right so yeah you're determining where whether you get interf whether you get relief from what the two and two rule it to your ball is within two of the obstruction. And the obstructions of when two of the putting green if that local rules and effect you then get relief but what you do is you find the nearest point where it's not in your line of play and you would then drop one club links from there it's the one club links really very a concept. One one caveat to just seems like there's always exceptions back on the line relief is dropping on the line but then it can roll up to a club length so that's still a one club like drop but you're dropping on the line and if we go back to think it was out in California already had a.

A drop where he dropped off the line twenty twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two and he and I was more recent than that four or five where he ended up with a two stroke penalty for not dropping on the line when he was taking back on the line relief that one you have to still drop it on the line.

It's pretty good. So, but that's why I'm confirming it and he's you know rules officials, so but I yeah it's almost just safe like unless it's red. I'm just going to.

“I'm trying to get trouble if you do say again on playable. Two shots as well. Yeah, that's lateral relief though, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of relief procedures to everything else is one.”

Yeah, okay. One one thing that always puts my brain in a pretzel. Let's say my golf ball comes to rest on the cart path and let's say it is like just barely on the right side of it like you know.

55th percentile in terms of the width, but I'm a right handed golfer. So finding my nearest point of relief like the nearest point of relief would be if I went right of the path. It needs to be my feet clearing the path as well, which might even though my ball is technically closer to the right edge of the cart path. My nearest point of relief in that situation would probably be left of the path because it could drop closer to the path. I need to include my stance in that. Does that question make sense tonight? Do I interpret that park correctly? Because I never see people measure that. Yeah, I'm following you, whether you're listeners or viewers follow you, not sure exactly.

Yeah, it's it's a nearest point of relief is something that we tried to figure out if we could make it simpler, but this kind of perfect geometry that it requires.

When when your ball is in the middle of the path and and you have this cart path running down a hole, you know, it's kind of just running down the right side of a hole left side of a hole.

“You're generally going to be dropping on the side that gets gets your club closest to the path and the thing that all for needs to remember is there's a lot of different ways and you'll just kind of get back to what the volunteer.”

For example, if you're looking for a way to get to the right side of the path and if you're looking for a way to get back to the right side of the path and you're looking for a way to get back to the right side of the path and you're looking for a way to get back to the right side of the path. If you put your your stance clear of the interference on the right side and then your club down where would the ball be, well, it would be, you know, a two feet two and a half feet from the right side of the path, but if you put it down on the left side, your feet would be well clear.

Your club would be right near the path right and so that's going to be closer to where the ball came to rest that's then the nearest point of complete relief because you don't have lie stance or swing interference that becomes your reference point. And then you get a club length from there to drop away from the path. Yeah, okay, I just yeah, I see people make that mistake, I guess, like if you're ball, you know, if it's slightly farther on the right, you know, it's like all my relief must be on the right when in reality, the closest point of relief might be in a different location.

I remember when the came up during the US open and and tell me this is different than like a normal round of golf, but I think we see it when we watch golf when watch mashed play a whole ends. It's it's on it's not uncommon for us to see a player hit a practice, but you can hit practice puts on the green after that.

“It sounded like from what I heard on the broadcast that also down of his USGA competition to whatever, but as long as you're not holding up the group behind you, you could technically hit a practice stroke on a green after you've completed the whole.”

Is that accurate. Yeah, it is that that's the rule of golf lets you practice chipping or putting on around the putting green you last played. So it's crazy. Yeah, once you once you complete a whole before you start the next whole, you can practice putter chip on or around that green provided you're not holding up play and there is a local rule that is used almost for every single profession.

Every single professional competition on the planet. We don't use it. We just never have where that's not permitted.

You know, if you've seen our setup teams, pictures of them, there's tape measures and everything else out on the green when we're setting up the golf course. We don't put paint dots down. That is something that will happen, you know, certainly at a local level. You might have to progo out and like dot greens to make sure that the next days locations are in place. That local rule makes a lot of sense when you're moving through things and it's it's it's it's a convenience right don't know need to practice put on the green afterwards.

But when that local rule is not effect, which is probably true for most of golf that gets played except at the highest level. You are allowed to practice put our. It doesn't happen so much anymore, but our our phone lines used to absolutely light up when a certain golfer Tiger Woods would he did that quite a bit he would practice put after he had just pulled out.

But we don't have that local rule in effect, so it's just fine.

That's crazy to me. Yeah, I don't think any but you even 150, guys at the US Open, you just don't see guys do it or take advantage of you think there's not aware of it or you know like.

“That's yeah, I think I think it has more to do with they're just so used to not being able to do it because you know they play on tour weekend.”

And it's it's not permitted right so golfers at home think it's also not okay. That that's the kind of the tour rules. The average golfer. Yeah, I learned this that you can't practice but right you're you're not allowed to do that. Well, but when I get shared on tour, it's probably not every time shared is that's a local rule.

It's a local rule we have that doesn't prevent it. Most people think it's the rule of golf question about dangerous dangerous animal relief.

Insects I living versus dead insect loophole first living living insect is an outside influence but if it's if they're dead they're loose impediments so so dead ones can be moved.

Living ones you got to like kind of let them be is that am I on the right track there like or if they move your ball you know to like walk me through the insect situation here. Yeah, yeah, so a living insect a living insect is is a loose impediment a dead insect is also a loose impediment. Okay. Yeah, I'm not I'm not quite sure exactly where we're where we're going. Well, my brother's like if something live would if a live bug like lands on your ball while it's in a bunker or penalty area you can't touch it or blow it away.

Okay, you're going back to junior golf days so that that's that's no longer yeah. He doesn't I listened in the seminar. I know this is good so serious. Loose impediments can be moved anywhere on the golf course now whether you're in a bunker or penalty area. Fairways greens you can move loose impediments.

So insects or are loose impediments and living or dead. Yeah, yeah, they are just a natural objects. Loose impediments is an exception in sex is an exception where they fit into the loose impediment category because they're just tiny little they're little critters. They can be moved and and there's there's no restrictions on what where they can't be moved on the golf course. You do need to be cautious though about moving your ball.

Yeah, the jeopardy applies when you're in a bunker or a penalty area or in the general area so really everywhere but on a putting green. So the caution there is is you know don't don't move your ball when you're moving them but whether they're live or not you can you can go ahead and move them off your ball or out of the way if they're near your ball. And then how it's forced dangerous animal relief or another related question.

“So I'm talking fire ants or poison ivy if I think my balls and poison ivy am I entitled to free relief from that.”

Not for poison ivy. Animant is is really where the rules draw the line so the lions and tigers and bears and you know the venomous snakes. Fire ants those are conditions that are considered dangerous animal conditions. When you get into poison ivy it's it's you might get a rash but you're not getting really from it from from all right the dangerous animal condition rule. I find there ants versus fire ants is that a different ruling. Yeah, it is it is that's correct. Yeah, yeah, you all live in a area of the world where there's there's more fire ants but I you know that the antenna that radios have.

Every time that I've been on a course that has fire ants I work RSM often and there there are some some fire ants down in that area and when you when you stick the antenna in the ground where fire ants. The ground where fire ants are or some other object they just that you know they it's it's fighting time that's a pretty easy way to figure that out. When you're when you're dealing at that level to a level you know the course is you're connected to the main and staff and they'll tell you that they're there.

“So it's tough in a check with players you're trying to see if ultimately that's what that is if it's not there's there's not relief.”

It's still ways of my conscious in a qualifier long time ago I I asked a rules official if a daddy long legs that was on my ball. A constitute danger say I'm all relief you know I didn't push it hard when he denied it but I was like you know that's probably the scubbiest ruling I ever aimed for. I did enough he has to be like do you feel in danger and I was like I do not. All right this is my this is my last one right this happened three three weeks ago and I'm going to call it a ball in motion situation this is a new one for me so.

I'm planning the course jersey the greens were turned up to a million where balls were de-greening I think nine times between the three of us in my group the ball you know.

I'm not going to put the ball in the middle of the ball and I'm not going to put the ball in the middle of the ball and I'm not going to put the ball in the middle of the ball. I think it might be a penalty if you had hit I confirm that he didn't hit before the ball can't arrest but he's like I think it's a penalty if you hit while balls and motion I had never heard that rule and I wanted to check with you I wrote this down. Once we had this podcast schedule like I was like I did that I don't I'd maybe bad etiquette but is can you know is there a ball in motion rule like that there they're junior golf this they're used to be kind of a perfect storm rule when when there were two balls on the putting green and that that was all the way up into to pre 2019 that that's not a penalty what you're describing.

It wasn't back then either it was this was about playing player plays from the putting green and someone who has not turned their turn to play plays while that balls in motion doesn't exist anymore though so I know no penalty and that case hopefully.

“Well, you can. I didn't happen so that's great. I was like I'm confident that it didn't happen it was close but I was like I also was like man I don't I again I think maybe you know don't play out a turn but.”

Unless it's match play I feel like there was like I never heard of that being a penalty just maybe like bad form so.

Yeah, not the Louis like 18 that gets hard because balls roll forever and in guys you know I've hit well and the balls are still emotion so yeah yeah. That course set up story and it makes me that that sounds challenging. I'm sorry. I got one more for you. I do have a question about substances on club faces like you know I see it in the rain a lot like so water's not considered an outside substance when or. Or, or spit like you know like you can't put like lip balm on your driver or some type of substance but where does that lip balm you know.

But yeah, it's a lot of all. Okay, yeah, this is this is an important tension if you're trying to clean it it's okay but. Clean with lip balm's not going to really pass the test your your you're you're certainly allowed to clean your golf club you're like clean your golf ball but putting something on your club face or the ball. To to influence it's it's performance is not allowed. Okay, so yeah, the lip balm is a is a pretty the vastly in those types of things are pretty clear cases. So you see that obviously it like ball washers that you see on teas some some carbs have that installed those things that are intended to clean or find.

Yeah, the solvents are fine. Yeah, and follow up question of that in 2019 I had a very stupid idea in my younger years to put I put a piece of tape on the top of my driver with a monitor. And the mantra was effing tempo, you know, just trying to remind myself over the golf ball to swing with tempo. Is that can is that legal.

Was it was it a bad idea, it didn't work is that well, it didn't really work, but I think solid was like I think that might be a penalty and we we never really got the bottom of it.

Solid solid was right on that one. Really. Yeah, that that that that is that gets into the external attachments and it's it's actually equipment rules. So I'm bed outside of my swim line here, but. Don't don't don't do that those of you, it almost ain't taken it that is a good idea external attachments on both.

“You see people put maybe I'm wrong here, but like lead tape. Yeah, lead tapes in exception. Yeah, lead tape is a specific thing. I think that's what I see a lot of things lead lead tape on it.”

I would so could you well, could you draw with a Sharpie on top of your driver, not on the face, but on top to remind yourself. You can you could you could do a Sharpie. Yeah, Sharpie reminder to yourself that would be okay. Okay, but now you can't draw on the face you can't like that's what a deck you got penalized for right was well kind of sort of working on that working on that more to come. Okay. Okay. I think I have that close my whole career in a question. Yeah, I got tape man that's tough for me. I think I have some I have some quick hitters here as my final questions dead man asked this on the on our message board.

“Is there a universe where the U.S. J. would allow players to move their ball out of a divot in the fairway?”

No, I'm with you on this one. I love that. Yeah, I mean, there's a line answer, but no philosophically and practically there it's it's yeah the answer is not.

Never going to happen. It never going to happen way too hard to enforce would be number one and number two flies completely in the face of play doesn't lie so I'm I'm with you on that one.

“Maybe a question not very well built or this this one is wreck hockey said has there been any thought to placing some restrictions on free relief.”

There's been instances where players in the rough gets relief from a sprinkler head or drain, but as close enough they're able to take their drop in the fairway. Can you do anything to mandate free relief that might be taken in the same cut as the original lie? Yeah, there's there's not momentum towards that right now that that's really just kind of the understanding that there's an area of the course it's large.

It's called the general area it's everything, but you know, bunkers panel areas in the putting green and that's the players good fortune.

It's you know, it happens at times, but there are great shots that end up in bad lies and there are bad shots that end up in great lies and and that's good fortune.

“Well, the ball bounces and sometimes relief ends up in those fortuitous cases as well. So no plans to try to remove that or say you have to be in the same cut that almost presents more complexity than that didn't really make sense when you like.”

Work tour courses, it's pretty easy to tell the rough from the fairway in most cases, but when you think of where most of golf is played, like where is the sand, like high in hurts, you end up with just a lot of a lot of gray area. Not considered a problem right now, so probably not looking to change things there. Makes sense. All right, last one, then this one is the one I think is probably not directed, it shouldn't be directed to you because USDA famously does not do ball in hand for closely known areas, but a change that I was screaming about that.

The budget tour made is going away from one club length of relief to score card length of relief. Yeah, I guess the rules already been changed, so I don't know why I'm still upset about this, but I never understood why you would ever, you know, and seeing guys get their driver out around the greens and still then even for that rule, why wouldn't it just be placed the ball back where you where you, where you marked it, like we marked the ball in the greens, why would you even get a score card length of of relief for a ball in hand situation.

So there's a lot going on here. I will say that you may see at a USDA qualifier, and I'll both try to get after it on occasion. Cleaning ball used at qualifiers. And Cudos to certainly Flores take off association for encouraging us to think outside the box on that, that is the lift clean and replace option. So it isn't the book, it's a model local rule that really let's apply or do what they do on the putting green.

It's about cleaning though, and the preferred lies option is really designed not just for cleaning, but for other conditions.

And I will say that the the tours or ultimately professional golf largely has used preferred lies, not it's not just about mud balls.

Part of that is that they can play deeper into windows when there's poor weather and then come out of them quicker. And that does help certainly with the windows and broadcast times and moving on to the next stop.

“I think is part of part of their attempts both to align with what is happening mostly in the rest of golf the deep world tours use scorecard length for some time.”

It's what most of the rest of the world uses and so that's getting closer to replacing, but ultimately isn't replacing and look these guys. You guys go to enough tour events they hit it so high and so far and the pitch marks that are created when golf courses get soft they end up being in and around maybe not even in the pitch mark, but they're in and around so many of them. The tour has for a long time felt like that's a it's a vehicle, it's a mechanism and I don't want to speak for them, but it does let them play deeper into and come out quicker from situations that ultimately allow them to keep on schedule.

I think the other true I mean that the candidly were a little worried about a bit of our qualifiers players see this I can lift it and they think they can then place it somewhere else and. The concern that they would get it wrong players would would be getting to stroke penalties left and right because they're so used to putting it somewhere else and not putting it back on the same spot so. Even though there may be some interest in replacing you're not changing the angles of shots especially around greens there's some value to that that's that's a desire but.

It's it's also an education and a learning curve and they're the risk they're going to replace and don't want them having the junior golf. I thought it was like this I like it used to be like this you know I just didn't get the memo.

I actually feel really good about that like I'm playing the game the right way all right I hit it twice all right.

“I think it was two strokes and like 2,000 and then it and then it was one stroke from then on to 19 and now it's now it's no strokes.”

But kind of gentlemen where we're getting there slowly.

I just remember that so well because club program was like oh god it's going to save me three strokes around.

“That's like oh it's not a penalty board that's how I remember that rule so Craig.”

We're going to let you go we held you longer than we thought but let me say you are so good at this that was this was super intuitive and we will just keep.

We're just going to keep a running list whenever we run into these situations and we'll have you back going for a part two into the future but.

“It is it's great to get some some answers on these and just don't ever give us your phone number I think I have your phone number but.”

Don't give it to us because we'll probably be calling you mid-round way too often but thank you for your your help and expertise today and I know this is probably a good a lot of this as well. So thank you both of you thank you appreciate being on great job. great job, love what you do. Thanks. Thank you.