1209: Medinah Preview with Mike Cocking

>> The right club, the right club today. [MUSIC] >> That is better than most. How about you? It was better than most.

Better than most. [MUSIC] >> Expect anything different.

“Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang Up podcast.”

Solid here. We are back from the Netherlands and back ready to talk about another team. Golf event. The president's cup is next week. At Medina, we brought on Mike Cocking from his design from OCM to talk about the

pretty dramatic renovation. Restoration. Not a restoration. Reimagination of Medina number three that we're going to see next week in great detail. We go through routing changes.

A bunch of considerations to win into this. And they can get us all prepared here for the president's cup. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Titleist Vokey design wedges. The most played wedge on tour. A Vokey SM11 wedge fitting is one of the easiest ways to dial in your short game.

It all starts with playing the right setup of loft, bounce, and grind and Vokey offers an industry leading 27 combinations in the new SM11 models. There's even more grinds through Vokey's wedge works program as well. I imagine trying to figure that out in your own 27 different combinations that you're probably not going to. Just go get a fitter.

They're going to guide you through the different options. Help you unlock cleaner contact. A more controlled flight and a more optimal spin performance with your wedges. There's a reason why Vokey wedges have been the most played on tour since 2004. And my eight of the top 10 in the OWG are play at least one Vokey wedge.

Head of Titleist.com to find a fitting near you. Here's my cocking. So people know Medina from hosting a rider cup PGA's and a lot of people might look at that golf course and not see or understand why it should be totally reimagined.

“I think a lot of people are going to be very surprised when it comes on their TV's.”

What were you? What were you tasked with at Medina? Take us into that process. I think it takes probably a lot of member buy and I would think to completely or reimagine a place with that kind of pedigree. How does all that happen?

Well, it was a fantastic board. So the controlling group there were incredible.

And I think they, I mean, if you think about it, they were probably one of the last country clubs to go through any sort of major renovation. You know, it seems like all the big clubs in America have kind of done their restoration or renovation or whatever. Choose to call it. And look, they realized that it was incredible club with an incredible history. But the golf course wasn't as good as it could be.

And I think perhaps, you know, some people probably weren't looking at the quality of the architecture itself and getting swayed by the history and all the various tournaments. And so they thought it could be a lot better. You know, when we went there, well, we actually, it's an interesting story. But we won that job during COVID. So we couldn't actually actually want it before getting there, which was strange. You know, I was like, oh, I was in Fort Worth.

We were finishing Shadeo because I was like on the last green. Last green to to be changed and got an email from the course of print in and saying, which would be interested in having a look at Madonna. And so, you know, you're obviously, you know, emotions are like sky high.

“And no, this is fantastic. So looking at the calendar, how can we get there?”

And two days later, got an email from the Australian government saying, if you don't come home now, you may never come up.

So, which is like the highest of emotions to the lowest of emotions. It's like, wow, we're not going to win the job now. So the club's credit, they were really patient. We came home. I had a really good friend, inch cargo.

And he, I asked him where he could go to the club because you guys weren't closed at that stage. You were, you know, it was business as usual in the US. So he offered to do some drone footage. And I kind of spoke with him on the phone. I'm like, well, can you take a photo from here?

Can you do some drone footage there? The club had this incredible collection of historical records and old aerials and plans. And so, and Jeff had played there as well. So he played in the PGA there with Tiger and Phil in like 2006.

So we kind of had enough information to cobble together a pitch, basically.

And the final piece we interviewed, we put together a lot of information. And then we were really lucky that Shady Oaks was about to open. So we kind of arranged for them to visit Shady Oaks. And they got to two of the course, like the day before it opened. So it was in great condition.

A couple of members of the board walked with them and could explain. They sort of acted on our behalf and were able to explain some of the philosophies and what we did, and why we did it.

So then we started putting together ideas from Australia because we still couldn't get there. And then finally, after about six or nine months, we got special approval by the government. And Ashley and I went to the States for about six or eight weeks. And spent three weeks at Medina with the members and doing course tours and presentations and kind of refining the concepts. But, you know, interestingly, the bones of the design we really came up with in Australia.

So we made some refinements when we got there. But we can talk about in a sec. But, you know, we re-rabbed the whole set of the last six holes. That idea came from our desktop here in Australia.

“Was there a surprising element, like anything you were surprised by that that didn't come through on the aerials or drone footage or just photographs?”

Wow, there was a consent element. It was consent that like, oh, I hope this is right. Because, you know, sometimes that first day when you land, you get lag, you're not thinking straight. And it's weird, we've kind of actually not have this rule that you that make any decisions on day one. Because it's like, you know, you're just not saying things clearly.

But, no, we were really lucky that because of all that drone footage and we'd done so much.

We'd never researched a job like it to be honest.

Because that was our only way. Normally, we would default to, well, we're going to spend time walking the course and we'll get to know the course. And we might have a loose concept, but we'd refine it in the field. Whereas this, we did most of that work from home. So we were lucky that when we got there, the holes looked as we thought they would look.

They really went into many things that that we might have made a change. Once we got there, it was just lots of little refinements. What was the state of it when you saw it? Because I, you know, again, when I was, I lived in Chicago during the 2012 Writer Cup, I went to that event and just getting to walk. Like, when, as a, you know, kind of medium golf fan at that time,

I was just amazed by the whole place. I didn't know anything about architecture at the time. I came back seven years later and played it. I was like, huh. I can't, that didn't really do a whole heck of a lot for me.

I feel like it should have and I feel like it's really revered. Why didn't it?

“What was the state of the golf course that you saw?”

And kind of what gave you the license to make his dramatic changes that we're going to detail here in a second. But to make the dramatic changes that you guys were able to make. Wow, it was easy to get caught up with the, like, I had a good, it had a great feel because it's such a big property. Like, it's got an illness scale. For three courses, obviously, we're talking about Medina three and there's two three 18 hole courses for the listeners sick.

Yeah, so the whole property is like 700 acres. But course three is 350 acres. So it's a big course.

And you've got the big sweeping contours, there's incredible trees.

Like, they've got some oak trees there from the early 1600s. I love the placards on the one. Yeah, it's still there. Yeah, I think the bebs are coming. Yeah, there's a couple there that, you know.

All right, you know, well, they'd predate Australia by 200 years. So, and so I had a quite a good feel, you know, and a lot of contour, big scale contour, which is sort of unique for a lot of the clubs in Chicago. And then the lake, you know, lake could either write in the middle of the golf course.

“So I think it's easy even if you didn't know anything about architecture.”

It's easy to get swept up in that because it's got this big scale feel. But the irony was, you know, it's 350 acres. There were 24 acres of fairway out there. And I remember saying to the members that the presentation, I said, to put it into context. And maybe this is too far the other way, but there's one fairway at mammoth dunes that has almost the same amount of total fairway. So it's like, so it was kind of, you had this incredibly skinny golf course that was at odds with the big scale.

You know, of the property. And so it was really, really hard for the average golfer. They played from the rough all day long. Meanwhile, it wasn't that hard for the tool players. You know, that people often talk about that BMW when Justin Thomas shot 24 under. And obviously it's been interesting. I've heard him talk about it. And I don't think he likes getting sort of blamed with the reason that they renovated the golf course.

But, you know, it's, in case in point, it wasn't that difficult for a tool player. So it was kind of it was the complete reverse of what as architects were trying to do. And then, you know, it was, I guess it was the fashion at the time late 90s, early 2000s, but a lot of the courses built by that firm kind of looked the same. The members joked that, or the board joked that the greens were all alien heads. So if you looked at them from the air, it looked like an alien face. The arrow at the front, wide at the back, and there was a bunker left in a bunker right, which were the eyes.

So, and if you looked at it from the air, it was like third-ing greens that all looked the same.

So, kind of had, they didn't have that incredible variety of, you know, something like our favorite golf courses.

You know, we tend to build hazards on the inside corner of dog legs, you know,

and build greens to favor play around that position, you know, pretty classic sort of strategy 101. Whereas a lot of the holes there, they had trees on the corner of dog legs, bunkers on the outside. You know, again, that was, that made the holes really hard for the average golf, because they couldn't reach the corner of the dog leg. Meanwhile, roaring in JT, and those guys just wiftered straight over the trees, and then chipped on the grain. And then there was, you know, they didn't really have a great short path forward.

You know, they didn't really build a hole in the back nine, 15, which didn't really work as a, as those, you know, all our favorite shortfalls were, you know, as far as six different options from the T, and, you know,

“sometimes it's confusing and you're not sure where's the pin, where's the wind, how am I playing, you know, what, what do I do here today?”

That they didn't do that on that hole. They had like three pathways that all looked the same, particularly 13 and 17, that would like next to each other played in the same direction. And they were just like carbon copies of each other. I started to crack my brain as to which one is which there, like you said, yeah. Yeah, and even two was straight across the water, it was played in the other direction, but it was.

And the like didn't really come into play, you know, it was just cool hazard, but it just kind of affected the average golfer, because the better, usually the you played kind of perpendicular to the water and good players, they know what, they know the yardage is so well.

They're never going to finish 15 yards short of the grain, so it's, they weren't, it wasn't hard for them, but really hard for the, you know, the 20 mark or a 15 mark.

“So it's kind of so there's a whole range of reasons why, you know, we felt, and they felt the time was right to kind of look at reimagining the golf course, and they were, yeah, that they were an incredible.”

The carbon board, they recognized that there, this wasn't a long lost McKenzie, there was no sort of old, you know, carbon plan in the top desk of the superintendent's office that showed, you know, this thing, you know, back around an incredible sort of, you know, design that was never to be, it was a Tom Benderler course that started as nine, it became 18, and there were probably four or five architects that changed it over the years, but there wasn't sort of a pedigree where you sort of could argue, let's go and restore it.

But there were elements that would, we definitely were intrigued by that figured in the renovation, whether that was, there was some cool old areas from the 30s that showed a really interesting, almost telling us like bunker style, you know, really, when they'd style rugged big sprawling hazards, they had, look, but they had a fence in play on old, old six, which was kind of the inspiration for what would be the fence on five six and seven, which we can talk about. So, yeah, so elements, and there was a lot more fairway grass too, there was, you know, they're a wider fairway, so, you know, sometimes when you're talking about renovations with members, I think it resonates when you're trying to restore something, you know, you're not necessarily putting trying to put your, you know, your mark on the course, so there was, in the end it was kind of this nice mix of.

It was probably a third of the golf course was there were elements we wanted to restore maybe another third that holds kind of stayed as they were, or certainly in the basic framework. And then there was another six that were major, you know, renovation reroute, so kind of appealed to all the sectors of the membership you hoped to. The ones that wanted to blow it up and completely change it all the way through to the ones that said, that was nothing wrong with the course we don't want to change too much.

It's amazing because I've never, like I'd never laid eyes on it other than what I saw on TV.

Prior to last year, I played their last year with actually with Ryan Pots was on the committee. Oh, yeah. And then, and then I played there again this year, and so that, like that's all that exists in my head. So, so I've only seen the current iteration and I can't even fathom the other, you know, previous iteration of it. And so I came back last year and I was like, man, like, that was so much fun that was a blast.

I had all these kind of half shots and it just made me think all day and the greens were, it's so much going on. And Sally was like, what are you talking about? Then we play the same golf course, I was like, I did not play the same golf course.

“Honestly, I'm so scar tissueed out for me.”

I was like, yeah, they're going to redo it. I'm like, okay, but it's still like not going to be good. And like, you got you came back and just because like that's my image of Madonna's just like, I don't know what you do with that. But that's kind of where I was starting with that you guys had so much license to do. You know, push the envelope a little bit.

And we can talk about some of those bold choices. But it sounded like, listen, your interview with Garrett Morrison as well. In terms of like, there was a, on top of, and I want to talk about how agronomy relates to all this as well in trees and whatnot. But it sounded like the place wasn't draining well to begin with. And it was going to, whatever they were going to have to do was going to cost a fortune anyway.

He's saying, you might as well do it if you're going to have to replace the drainage as it stands.

Yeah, that's right.

“They had to, they really had to rebuild the golf course purely from a drainage point of view.”

Like, yeah, there was no major drainage just about there. So when it, when you had big storm events that failed, I just flooded, you couldn't play it. Like, even the grains drainage would go out to like a catch basin, but there was no outlet. So I didn't actually go anyway. So just, so they had to, they had to go around with pumps and pump out of the pits, like after rain events.

But this is a, you know, major club in America.

You know, even things like car parts were all trashed. Irrigation system, well, you know, an irrigation system these days is forming in books. Minimum strad off of that. And then, yeah, there was tree work, shade issues, agronomically the grains were sort of too small. They had to be rebuilt.

The profiles were no good. So you kind of, yeah, you go through it and it's, it makes the conversation with the members a little easier. If it's like, well, you know, you can spend X amount and do nothing architecturally or just spend a little bit more. For really no extra inconvenience and have a much better golf course. So it has your process changed at all.

Having gone through the process of reviewing this site and this course and this project. Site on scene and from afar.

“Did that yield any any kind of big learnings or any big takeaways that you've taken forward of, hey, you know what?”

This is actually the best practice and we should, we should kind of utilize this moving forward. Yeah, it has a little bit. We've probably spent more time now doing some work on the topo and, um, particularly with the renovation, um, before visiting, whereas in the past we would tend to wait until we got there and spend time on site. Um, actually just we're doing a big project north of Toronto at a, at a course that used to be called taboo. Um, so it's an eight-an-hole golf course and we're turning it into two courses and um, that was an interesting process because.

In doing the the routing we basically wanted to forget that there was a golf course there to try and get the most out of it. So that that was kind of a good example where I think spending too much time on site actually would have been. Would have been an negative because you, you wouldn't be able to forget the holes, you know, and you're almost want to like once you see them, you can't unsee them.

And we, we actually wanted to forget there there and just purely look at it as a one, it's a beautiful property, but one incredible property.

“And then kind of figure out a cave, there wasn't a golf course here, what would that look like?”

And then we sort of switched on the aerial and there were sections of holes that were still part of the new design, um, you know, in a couple of areas and so. Um, we incorporate the Damien, but we, yeah, we didn't want to look to how to the course. So take us to the, the, the, what will be the closing stretch for the members and as I understand it, I'm a conferredness, but is, is it right that the presence cup is going to start on the fifth hole? Is that right? Yeah, yep, yep.

So I, as I say that, that's to give some confusing whole numbers for what people should expect here, but the final six holes the golf course were rerouted as the members route would have it. Those holes were bumped up in that routing so that the more matches will get to them, but take us to what that finishing stretch was and kind of what what people will see that's drastically different. Um, yeah, so I guess the idea of the rerout all came all started with what was the old 17th hole, which was the past three.

You remember it figured in most of the matches in 2012, I'm in around a way too well way way too well below that hole up. I hope not, it was such a good week wasn't that. For whatever reason, how I just kept moving to the right and looking down the lake, because the lake to set on this really interesting diagonal and staring at what was then the 14th T's, which was the path for the path five, so that you played back across the water. It just looked like a really interesting short path for and it was like, huh, you know.

And there were just trees in the way it was a hole that you could almost build and we thought, oh, could this be the great short path for is like a cape hole. And that kind of was the start of it. And there was also an old plan in the 30s that showed the original 17th played along the water rather than over the water. And we thought, well, if we could try and, you know, try and get a bit more variety in the past three's, you know, that would be that would be part of the puzzle. So we ended up that the 12th hole is a great hole. It was kind of famously bunkless. We ended up putting two back bunkers behind the grain, but it's essentially back close.

And then as you come off the 12th, you used to play across the water towards what is now the 18th fairly just to confuse everyone.

So that's new 13 slightly blind. There's a couple of different teas from the left tea. The greens completely blind from the right tea. You can see it. But this plays into the predominant wind. They didn't really have a short path 3. We liked the idea of having a kind of a 9-9 or wedge or 8-9 to the pathway.

“And you have to really deal with flooding the ball because it's always played into the wind. It's easy to lose it right, hit the bank and roll down the water.”

So that was a new 13 and then you walk to the top of the hill and play 14. Which plays down the old 14th fairway, but the green pushed way back. So the halfway down the what was then the short path for 15th.

Then the next hole is the old 16th, which is basically a similar sort of format to what it was. That was the hole at Sergio, you know, hit from behind the tree.

That tree is long gone, pride to us, but it's still a very memorable shot for people, you know, our age. And then you walk up the hill to play this capal, this path path for along the water. It's really interesting hole. And one of the things we were wrapped with, and it's unfortunate that it's not evident with the presence cap water, but we love one through 18 because all this drama is building around the lake as you finish. Like there's so much action around the lake. And to have a short path for as your third last hole, it's like perfect time for a hole like that, you know, you're one down in your match or you're playing well or you need a birdie or whatever it is.

And there's so many different t-boxes too, like they're, you can set it up so many different ways as well. Yeah, which is interesting because you can, you can make it short enough where you're thinking about trying to drive the green.

“Or if you play from back, it's more of a, it's more how much the water do I want to take on, do I want to leave myself with a 9-9 or a 6-9?”

And there's a nice, and it's really front right in there too. But it's that little bump in the green that we added in. And it's really deceptive, it's interesting how you think it's, it looks shorter than it is, like it's actually quite a long way across the water. And you sort of, you leak your drive just a little bit, and you're sure it's over the fellab, but the number of, the edge of the hazard, but the number of times you see it splash is really interesting. And then, so it's, it's the short four or the short to medium four, and then we played back across the water with 17 again, kind of the water's on a diagonal.

So this is a completely new hole.

“This took a bit of imagination because it was sort of a forest behind, basically, but seen behind the 12th grain.”

And then 18, the original 18th, you played up this corridor, so we actually kind of reinstated the original corridor.

So it plays, you know, the same just next to the first fellab, but from back across the water.

So we kind of introduced the water carry again, which that lost with the changes to the old 14th. And you play up pretty much the same green site with the flag behind the green. And then we were left with all this space with the old 18th fellab was. And it's a cool entry because you used to see golf, and so we wanted to reintroduce golf, so ended up building it like a five-hole short course. And a big putting green near the driveway, which is, yeah, being fun for, you know, if people want an extra hour or hour and a half of golf after they ran or they got kids or, you know, there's a lot of families at Platmidina, so it's been popular with them.

So that was kind of the, that was sort of the genesis of the, the last six.

So cool. It's so much, yeah, it's like, you know, I just, I, I feel weird because I have an eye to be critical of golf courses, and I have no eye to actually how to improve them.

And like, I just listen to you explain how each whole works and what you did. I'm like, oh, that makes perfect sense, but I could never come up. I would have just, that's not what my eye sees. That's not how I take golf courses in. So I love, I love just here. Yeah, across as a, well, then it's, like, it's cool too on the memoratic because you get, like, on, like, two is par three across the water, like, you're introduced to it kind of right away. And then you've got, was 13 kind of an unlock as well, playing 13 was a bit of an unlock here.

And that was, yeah, 13 and 16, I would say, with the two that sort of unlocked everything. And it was funny, we, when we were presenting, so again, this was presented from Melbourne, and because you could kind of sense that the club were getting, not frustrated, but, you know, every month went by, we couldn't travel anywhere. And it was like, you know, and I felt like it was starting to get to, and I'm, I'm sure if you asked Ryan, he would probably say the same, but you could kind of just sense that we're starting to get to the point where it's like, we need to get there.

So to kind of stretch time, we said, well, why don't we present six holes at a time, our initial thoughts, our initial concepts. So we did that online again without seeing the course, but we were somewhat confident that, you know, these ideas weren't necessarily meant to be locked in stone, but to give them a good idea. So we sort of did the first six, and they really liked them.

And you could just see their eyes kind of light up, because it ticked all these boxes that they were hoping for, you know, that the change in the past three is the short path for, you know, after we really found out this later, but straight after the meeting, they went out on the course and they walked it, they walked to the rerout, and they loved it.

And so then the feedback was, you know, keep going down that path and so then we kind of worked up that concept.

And bought you some more planning to do that, right? Well, I'm going to put us some more time on that plan to be music to your ears, like you're probably, you know, do more is kind of like, okay, if you want me to, I got ideas here, usually you guys are the one stopping me, but I got more in the tank.

“Yeah, well, and it shows what, you know, that's how great they were as a client, you know, that they were open to all the face things. They just, they just wanted the best golf course they could have.”

So not static point. If you live somewhere where it gets cold in the winter, your golf seasons about to end, I'm sorry to report that, but there are ways you can make gains in your golf game in this offseason. I promise you, if you go to the stack system dot com slash NLU use code no laying up at checkout, you will come back in the next golf season with a faster swing speed and easier swing speed. It will be easier for you to reach whatever your, your fastest level is right now, you can turn that into your median level of golf swing.

You can turn that into your golf swing speed and you can turn that into your golf swing speed and you can turn that into your golf swing speed and you can turn that into your golf swing speed and you can turn that into your golf swing speed and you can turn that into your golf swing speed. But when I do go play golf, I'm amazed at how fast my golf muscles, how how my golf muscles still feel like they're there. I've been moving a little bit. The 15 minute stretching routine has just been great for my overall physical body health. It's a great workout overall and I look forward to doing it. I set my schedule and when I'm home, I do not miss my stack workouts and I've got the speed gains to prove it.

If everything about it is when it feels like I'm swinging like 80% on the golf course now, the ball still goes. I don't know how but it goes. It's science. Dr. Sasha McKenzie can explain it a lot better than than I could. You can check out the podcast episodes.

“We've done with him for details on how it all works or just go to the stack system dot com slash and all you use code no laying up get the stack bundle come back next year swing it faster back to the pod.”

I think another thing I mean, you know, we're going to see a lot of this golf course here as of next week as we were releasing this and five is one of the holes I've seen that is most photographed or most different in terms of your we're going to see the before and after of that I assume on the broadcast as well and that's going to be the opening hole and press. But cubs actually do have a great reputation. I think for having kind of a really nice fun atmosphere opening hole and I think it's going to be really cool to see that to start but take us to your use of the fence lines on what will be one and two what are five and six on the member routing of this golf course and kind of what goes because I know I know out of bounds is going to get my my co host here pretty excited.

Oh, it's like my favorite under utilized feature and golf. Yeah, it's just really simple and the way that you place the bunkers up the right and you know that kind of interplay is just yeah it's like it's simple but not easy stuff which is brilliant it's funny that isn't it that like I mean as Australians we typically when we were juniors and playing competitively would always go to the UK. And we played because we could have funded trips there I think that was it was like a breach of amateur status to go to the US so we were always tended to go to the British amateur and play all the events there and when you've played along the UK the use of out of bounds is just part of the part of the design of so many golf courses I mean.

“Most of the back nine of the old course, you know you're dealing with the out of bounds there but holes like the first at pressed week and you know Trune and Ross and George's and like this this it's so common and yet.”

You know through the process we realize that it's not that common in the US and so people would sort of question a little bit.

Even the tour and you know that the genesis though of that was those holes out the back there were really plain if they're probably it's the flatest part of the golf course. You know you're away from the forested areas and the lake and so that kind of lacked a bit of an identity was like it was just a bit blah sort of out near the boundary.

And then we found this you know I said before the club had this great collection of historical photos and aerials and things and there was this incredible photo that we think was the.

It's the great as people putting out and you could clearly see right against the green you could see this fence this metal sort of fence and then on the old Bandal our plan there was a tea immediately behind the fifth grain which looked like it played up the boundary and so it looked like they were kind of using the boundary as you know as a hazard.

You could see cars and houses but they were lucky they had all this space in land so we kind of shifted the holes in land a lot.

But then and we'd move them away from the fence but then it was like what do we now do as a hazard and then we thought well. I mean from a tournament perspective it made sense to have a perimeter road we wanted room to plant trees but the kind of thought what could we reintroduce the idea of a boundary fence and just build like a poster in our fence. And there wasn't really any pushback from the club and we thought well that that would introduce a new thing to this sort of bland section of the golf course so suddenly you had the forested areas in the lake areas but you've got this three whole stretch with the out of bounds.

So I was kind of where it started from. We wanted to mean to us you know you for it to be an effective hazard you've got to have the playing surface right up hard against it so we ran the fairway all the way to the fence on five. As the whole you were talking about John and the idea there was it's a it's a short path five. The bunkers kind of if you if you if you flare one right away from the fence you shot to the green is blind. And you're coming across the green at an angle with a lot of bunkers right on the green and the boundary fence immediately high behind the green so it's kind of it's a pretty simple strategy if you drive it up the left you just hitting straight up the green.

Six sort of similar but the gap between the bunkers on the right and the fence is about 30 yards but if you play short of it it's probably 70 yards.

You're pointed right at it off the tee to whereas. If you're you're you're more like playing alongside the fence where you're playing towards the fence on six and or really put the fear of God into you a little bit. And six would yeah we wanted that green hard up against it so you know we're hoping that it would be well received. There was a few questions at different times that I shouldn't it be you know what if it was 10 yards further back but it's like but if it's 10 yards further back it's not the same thing that would be like growing 10 yards of rough on the idea in the pebble.

I would hope that it would be well received to be honest with you I would hope they would make people uncomfortable that's kind of the point right.

It is the point yeah and um look fortunately there's been a lot of people that have played they've seen it's the renovation and I loved it that that was one we were a little bit. Be interesting to see how this is received.

“It reminds me a little of the second hole at talking stick and I forget which course it was I don't know if you've seen it or reference it but like I think about the whole all the time that's a.”

Corbin Crenshaw golf horse there over it's a par five that the green just something piece of land yeah it's completely flat and I think about it all the time because it's like. The most fair golf all the green is there's OB all down the left and you got to. If you if your t shot goes way far right that means you're you're looking right at the OB as you're approaching the green but if you drive it take on the risk off the tea you're hitting alongside of it and it is it feels inherently so fair and feels.

I feel like when when play when even pros get to a whole like this they're going to have to make some pretty clear decisions maybe not a club maybe you know par five guys are going to pull driver but. On how much risk they want to take on because the the penalty is not all I just going to the rough and hack it out the penalty is I got to reach into my bag and get another golf ball that that just seems like it drives real strategy for every golfer that would play it.

“Yeah and there's a nice line about that whole talking stick where you know at some point on your journey down the whole you have to deal with the boundary fence like you can give it to my you can give it a little attitude off the tea.”

But to your point the second shot you're aiming straight at it and you can with your second shot you can play away from the fence if you really want but then the third shot you're going to have to be playing straight at it or it's a difficult pitch across the bunker with the boundary fence behind and. And that's what yeah I just think you know out of bounds like that is so underutilized. In design because to your point it's not it's not it's not the same as water you know if if that was just a water has it you find to a pro still taking dead aim at the grain because they know if you know they can drop a ball up there but.

Can't do that with boundary fence up puts more pressure. Back in the fairway as to whether you really want to take that shot on. What's that hole at long still links you guys it's 16. Yeah, you can go for this if you want but you go long left year. You are retailing I mean it's it's it's very black and white decision.

“That happened to you if I remember that.”

I really do remember that but. What's out of bands here.

What is it like working to create.

The right agronomic conditions on pieces of land like this you guys are afforded a ton of benefits. On the sand belt in terms of being able to create fast and firm surfaces this is quite different.

“What can you do to achieve firmness you'd like and and what you know I'm saying what kind of limitations do you have I think we're not expecting sand belt level firmness of course but.”

Yeah, what can you do and what did you do to get yourself you know to get it as much as optimal playing conditions as you possibly can.

Yeah, we worked very closely with the superintendent there and they had a couple of consultants involved as well. And the greens are all you know sort of a modified USDA style green. So improved drainage that they're actually a variable depth green it's called may or may not have heard about but it's where you vary the profile to try and get consistent sort of moisture.

So traditionally high points like mounds on a green would dry out quickly.

So if you reduce the amount of growing medium up beneath it it makes it it increases the amount of moisture as compared with a section of a grain that's flat and then if you've got to be hollow you do the reverse you actually increase the amount of of it and then you know lot more drainage added.

“We didn't go to the extent of like sand capping or anything like that everyone felt quite comfortable that the soils they were good but you are the reality is you still exposed you know I mean that the key with making of course that that whole.”

making it you know playable for the average member and hard for the tool pro and adding more fair wine short grass around the greens. And the fair way you know if you've got a raised green with short grass peeling off all around it and really firm conditions it's not like the traditional park lane courses where they can just take their aim at the flag and if they miss it they've just got an easy chip you know if you. You missed that shot in your 30 or 40 yards away and then you got all sorts of interesting recovery shots so the firm is key.

And then the course like Augusta which has got everything thrown at it to you know the sub air and the whole you know the whole lot if you get a two or three inch storm just before the event unfortunately it's there's not much you can do but.

“They've certainly got if we just have a nice lead up to the tournament they've got the ability to to dial adding and make it play you know fairly firm and fast I would say well within within the limits that what.”

What's your cultural comfortable with how much was the like one of the biggest things I noticed going back when you're later was. How much all the the Heather and long grasses have come in. Yeah, how much was that a part of the plan as well of just adding that texture and kind of that visual element. Yeah, it was a big part um we just it just felt so you know the it was 3050 acres of lush green cut rough you know just was just this monotone of green out there and we felt it would really benefit from.

Longer are browned off kind of fescue different color but also different texture so we added about 60 acres so they went from zero to 60. We were pretty careful we didn't want to bring it in everywhere because we were concerned that if there was push back from the members you know long rough has the potential to if people get frustrated. And before where they just end up cutting all the rough across the golf course in your back to square one so I think we'd long rough introducing long rough like that you just want us to creep up on it so we started in 50 or 60 now in post post tournament we talked about converting a few more areas so then that might sort of that number might creep up but.

It also makes tool as well like it's used on six to keep you honest as far as all right you want to bail out to the right call you're going to have to deal with. Right now it's like six seven eight that that's stretch of the golf course I felt like the long ass really added a little bit more just more structure to the side of the whole that doesn't have all the hazards on it. Yeah and that and that's a feature of that flat section so that's so that was an oak savanna like prior to the golf course being there it was sort of oaks up on the on the high ground and then just these fields of sort of native grass. So we liked that again that was sort of adding that's the character of that section of the course is that it's more the long the long fescue the advance fence and these sort of oaks up on the up on the high hill.

And I guess from a purely from a like a conservation point of view. Those long roughs you don't hear a guy so we were able to reduce the amount of heads out there so suddenly we're not there's 60 acres of of rough that aren't being irritated that previously were.

Talk about this a lot over the last decade on this podcast but I never tire of hearing other people explain it much better than I can as to why the width philosophy does and can make sense in the right circumstances and why that's an architectural. Yes style that you that you preach pretty even jallically like we like the most of us do. Yeah, I mean there's plenty of golf courses out there I think that you can point to that and all gusts as a great example of really wide fairways but with firm conditions and very clever grains that used tilt and slope and you know and they've got a sparing use of bunkers but really well position bunkers.

I mean that's it's such a brilliant way of it's still very challenging for the you know for the best golf is to the point where I can almost dial in the.

The tournament winning score at the start of the week it would say and yet it's fun for the average members.

“At Medina you know I think from zero from the T through to 250 yards doesn't really matter how wide you make it it's not affecting the tool player.”

So we felt like there was an opportunity to widen the fairways leading back to the T's is a bunch of holes there where the fairway goes all the way back to the T. So there was opportunities to make it wider without nowhere where the better players were hitting it. But then you know we just felt and you know you sit around the sandbelt as well. The quality of greens there could be improved a lot and just by using angle and tilt to really emphasize the correct position on the fairway and the incorrect position we felt that they could handle more with you know 40 or 50 yards.

And we penalized the good place sort of more subtly by being in the wrong angle and having a really difficult shot into the green the green surface tilting away and some big buck because you know perhaps between you and the whole so. It was yeah and I guess the other point is around the greens you know. We find that that you see it a lot less so now but the traditional parkland city US parkland course would have rough around the grains and it just led to such a one dimensional style of recovery play.

It's just a lot where drew a sandwich every day is the same and you know even when the pins were tight.

That's guys they would never not consider flying at the pin because they missed it it would only finish two or three yards off the grain.

And it was for them it was a relatively easy chip back so we would much prefer to see short grass extending off the grain, particularly if the green tops elevated and start to introduce different options with recovery play. That's great for the average golfer they can always pull a pata but for a better player the ball finishes further away from the target. And you end up with a really some interesting options whether it's a bump and run or a three would chip or a pot or a lob wedge or a sandwich and.

You know irrespective of whether it's easier or harder it's just more interesting you know just.

It's just such a you know boring way to play the game so so there were sort of different areas where we felt it could handle more fairway.

And to be honest it's not like it's.

“Incredibly I think there's 55 acres now of fairway or 60 acres of fairway so it's not like it's crazy wide arguably it's it's a more sensible with it's just it was too narrow for me it was only 24 acres of fairway and then.”

So I'm yeah I think I. Other throw in a rat about what happens in that question you have. There's certain holes to like I think tens of good example or 15 where like the whole angles a certain way and you still run the risk of being blocked out by a tree. Or but you know like there's there's there's still some things going on that it's like it's not just thoughtless off the tea you're trying to earn an angle up one side of the fairway or another and. And you know trying to try to take on a little bit of risk to do so.

Yeah, and it's it's interesting we played last year we had a couple of days there with the international team so Jeff had the guys they've probably probably 12 of the group like the shortlist and we spent two days playing the course and it was really interesting. Because one of my favorite holes there is the eighth.

“Eight for the members play it the short puffer and that green is a skinny green that's really heavily tilted from right to left so you have to up the left side close to those bunkers to get a good angle in.”

And there's quite a lot of space to the right but it's a really difficult page. And these guys there's you know 12 of the best plays in the world and they just couldn't figure it out because they're not they're like yeah there's you know.

And it's like how do you have you have you considered that like maybe hitting a forearm or something. And that that concept was like the moon you know it was like where do you know but but I don't want to be able to hit my driver.

And it's just interesting and you it's easy to be critical of it but then you sort of think through it and it's like it just doesn't happen that many times on to where they where they have to.

You know really think about there's this three or four different options here and I've got to think about where our position marble and just so used to fairly soft conditions hit the ball as far as I can. If I mean the same you're off and it's not that difficult to pitch up so.

“So for well-manly that's the smart move on tour right and that's how your brain gets programmed and I think that's where some of the super nerdy data guys.”

And and and some of us that like a little bit of the artistic side might get in some back and forth so like yeah the data is going to like clearly show this is what you should do but.

There's nuanced when things get firm and there's nuanced to really well design golf holes and the wind direction might change.

Exactly what your strategy should be and if it's even if it's across wind of some ways of the only way to get to a certain. A quadrant of the green might be from a certain side of the fairway and that's that's where that's where golf gets fun I think three to play and watching yeah yeah totally. Yeah absolutely and that you know to your feminist question that's when you add firmness into the equation that's when it becomes truly three dimensional because then you're starting to think about. Planning a ball 20 ad short and if you've chosen to kind of have a hollow or a little bit of movement short of the green and you've got to start thinking about flight.

It's not just length it's not just you know I know I hit this one fifty five it's like suddenly you've got to land at one thirty five but but it's how much spin as the ball got what's the angle of approach. That that's when it starts to get really interesting. Interesting to ask anyway. Now is the time to visit pinehurst resort at the cradle of American golf pinehurst is more than fame number two an anchor site of the US open it's tom dokes masterful number ten. For historic hotels and newly built luxury cottages at pinehurst number eight the one of a kind title a shop at pinehurst and a new Peter Miller shop.

Real of dynamic dining experiences in station twenty one plate and the upcoming wire grass pinehurst plans timeless charm with a very best in the game today visit pinehurst dot com to plan your stay back to the pot.

“You know I think it's my favorite hole in the course like gas was sold and it's just brilliant.”

I guess transitioning to to your career at large and just I think you know you're.

Your background in Australia and then bringing that over to the states like tell us a little bit about shady oaks was that your first commission you're in the states and how to come about.

The first that was the start of it. And yeah, we'd pitched on the job at Trinity forest in sort of South Dallas. In sort of 2014 I want to say and I flew over and Jeff and I went there and met the client and came up with a like did a routing and a concept and they really they loved it.

“And my understanding is that was their preferred concept but at the last minute Bill and Ben I think they really wanted Bill and Ben you know for a number of reasons make sense.”

And so and at the last minute Bill and Ben were interested in the in the projects so they won the job but we stayed in contact with the client. And I heard through a contact that shady oaks were looking to renovate and I rang our contact that. Trinity forest and he happened to be standing next to. Bill call in a bunker and they were chatting and Bill said well I know that probably shady oaks I'm good friends with him I know Mike right I'll give him a call. And I was looking at the work and suggested they look at us in a hood for mark we flew over there spent the day with the committee out on the course.

And put together a proposal and we won the job and I was I still think about I mean it's it was a major sliding doors moment. But you know we won that commission we ended up doing the work just before COVID and sort of that trip I was talking about we're actually then I came over for six right weeks well that was to I sort of consolidate the plan and our relationship with Medina but on that same visit we went and had a look at a property south of Georgia which became the fall line. He had enough gone on that trip maybe the fall line would never have happened maybe Medina would have gone to another architect maybe we'd still be in Australia maybe we would have no work in America I'm not sure but it was it was so critical.

And sort of a a number of other new commissions or renovations now we sort of I guess there's about 15 or 16 clients we have in the US and Canada looked at a couple of projects in Europe doing couple of big projects in New Zealand and then we're still busy in Australia so it's it's just very interesting how it's all it's all occurred. And I was telling the story to someone the other day not that I'm I don't think about these things all the time but it was this amazing moment where I was at home I was waiting for the phone to ring about the job at shadiox.

And you know I don't know whether it's serendipitous or not but I was my kids were really young and I was trying to I was home with them and I'm like waiting on this call and so and that as I'm sure you're aware looking after kids.

That can always be an awkward moment when you've got a client about to ring and there.

It's always yelling and speaking is under everything in a half so I could picture the choir. And I and I had I put on a cartoon and I was sort of trying to keep them occupied because I was expecting Mark right to ring and I wasn't sure whether he was ringing to say we didn't have the job or maybe we did have a job. And I put on up which is a kind of great cartoon you know Pixar movie and there's a scene in it where they're trying to convince the old man to go into this retirement home. And it's like leading up to this moment and I'm looking at my phone and it's like 759 and he said he's going to call it eight and I'm like giving them food.

I'm trying to make them comfortable and I looked at the screen and the guy throws into the old man's hand this brochure for their retirement home and he opens up the brochure and it's called shadiox retirement home.

The second he opened it my phone rang and it was my cry and incredible and I looked at the TV I'm like oh my god and then I and I'm like well this has to be good news.

Sure enough he was ringing to say we had the job. So shadiox is actually good incredible.

“I feel like that's such an incredible property to have like as your first project here North America because I think it's it's just it's just under the radar enough and just.”

Almost mysterious enough for the general public to be like oh man like like you kind of keep hearing about man you got to see what. What they did over at shadiox and it really just kind of peeks your curiosity I think.

Yeah it really was that it was our it was the perfect first project for us great club great membership.

Underutilized nice bit of land but underutilized and it's kind of all the things we you know that's our bread and butter is renovation work that's certainly what we've done a lot of. It's certainly what we've done a lot of in Australia and you know all the holes there could be made better without too much controversy you know we did a bit of trail removal. Lot more short graphs you know interesting bank of style better set of grains.

“And yeah I remember Mike right actually saying you know he actually said I think it was a good thing that you didn't get the job at Trinity forest because of our concept for that property.”

Well there were limitations because it was a landfill but our concept was fairly similar to what Bill and Ben did and you know it's I guess it's been a little bit polarising that style of course in that area and. His thought was that we might get pigeonholed as to that's kind of the work that we did. And I think I think it's probably right I mean it would have been a great job to do but I think shadiox to your point was sort of it was the perfect on trade into the US and. Yeah it does it kind of flies under the radar.

It's such a cool place because of the Hogan connection particularly. You know that it's it's one of those courses that everyone's aware of and it's it's just a really nice experience going there. So I'm sorry. So no it's just going to say for me going back there. It's still it's like a second time you know I love going back there.

Just so many good memories. Were you worried at all or did you face this at all of getting feeling like you were getting pigeonholed into being. The renovation specialist and not not getting a lot of looks at completely green sheet totally original projects. Yeah yeah absolutely and there's just not many new projects in Australia that happened to so you know we would quite well known for our innovation work here.

“And I think that's why the fall line was such an important job for us.”

You know it was. You know it could really the only time you get to showcase your ability to route a golf course on new land you know because it's it's up to you to how you want the golfer to experience the property. And that's a you know and even to set up the sort of the cadence of the golf course and you know what what are you trying to.

So the fall line was so important for us such an important job.

“And now we're really lucky that we've got this nice mix in the U.S. of new and renovation so I don't feel like now we're pigeonholed too much.”

It's got it's kind of the perfect balance because we still enjoy renovation work and restoration work with. But yeah we've also got this ability to yeah sort of a half a dozen new projects so. Can you describe the fall line for for a lot of our listeners that are probably unfamiliar with the project. Yeah sure on so it's two hours south due south of Atlanta. Which if you know Georgia there's not much down there and they're all sort of hunting properties.

Guy by the name of Bert Guy reached out to sort of the. Character from Alabama he's a lawyer. We've become really good friends and he's very good friends with kill hands so they've known each other for long time. And Bert's now sort of doing and he's kind of assembling these you know he's connecting architects with clients and property. You know he's done this a few times now and.

Here we I went to the office one day and there was a voice recording on the anti machine and I don't really we don't have an office anymore but back then I didn't go very often and I'm lucky I did. And there's this bird guy and I rang him back and said to explain who he was and. Whether we're interested in having a look at this property and.

“The girl very kindly had recommended he'd done a hoopy and this was just a bit too close to a hoopy and he had some very nice things to say about us and that's how we got sort of connected so they weren't they didn't really go to other architects.”

So we visited there it's it was 1500 well there was three properties we looked at. And in the end actually and I felt that this one particular property was was best suited was 1500 acres. And I was property to create the 1500 acres and the lady that on the side. She was a real character you know had all these signs on the front fence like intruders will be shot you know. I don't come in here is like video cameras and it's like what have we got into here.

Welcome to South Georgia but she was brilliant and her she had just lost her husband and and actually and I ended up staying with her for probably the first years of the project and it was she was like a target mother.

To us and she had an interesting history and her husband actually built the first general Lee from jigsson has it.

And she was like a panel beta yeah so interesting true there so anyway so yeah this 1500 acres it's it's called the full line because it's it's like a geographical term. It was the edge of the shoreline and it extended from Columbus to kind of Augusta. And she was like a profile of sand up to 200 feet of sand and this property is just nicely angelating not steep not severe kind of broad contours 50 60 feet contours. Long leaf pines and sort of this low scruffy native sort of grasses and plants that looked a bit like the sand belt vegetation or maybe the hefland in London.

“And I think early days I'm not sure the clients really knew what what it was going to be they wanted they wanted a great golf course similar sort of structure to something like a hoopy private.”

And so we got to work we're after pitching for the project we won the job and we started on routing 18 holes. And it was an interesting property because it was very spread out and there was a really interesting piece to the left or to the west interesting bit in the middle and interesting bit to the east prom was that was too big to fit 18 holes on so we pitched the idea of 27. And we had this idea that the middle nine had some alternate t's and things so you could play 36 so you could basically play the western 18 which would be the middle nine and the western nine or you could play the eastern 18 which would be the middle nine and eastern nine.

And we really liked this idea they liked it we started clearing we started building. And then like as we as we're building holes they're like oh we feel like there's a bit more golf out there.

More cowbell they said it's a set of that love reference and and so we hang on to the concept though to the like right to the end where the first hole we love this idea that.

There were two there was sort of it was like a wash out hole and so two team positions but a single green and we like to this side so we had 35 holes and we love this idea that you played the first and then there was an arrow at the green that was like why I'm either going west I'm going east.

There was a chance we were so far down this path but it was really hard to like you can't just find another first all you know.

“And first all got added versus which first all are first on the east okay added yeah but the second on the east was part of the west and like they're it required.”

And you know I think we're really lucky there because I think if if they had known they were building 36 holes and a short course at the outset I'm not sure we would have got to design them all I think that would have gone different architect for each course. We were you know we're still very good friends with them and you know we were so embedded in it that when it went from 18 to 27 to 36 the discussion became what what do we build for the second course.

And we threw up you know an idea to do 36 in the same style and then have a concert.

Which is kind of down the roll Melbourne theme. But in the end they wanted two different styles and there were parts of the property that looked a bit like the old photos of pine valley or or felt even a bit sand but like in terms of contour. And we pitched the idea of a sandbook course. Which they really liked and we wanted to sort of at that stage we wanted to show America what sandbook off could be because there's been so many courses built in the US where they say it's inspired by the sandbelts or you know we wanted to build the bunkers of Kingston eighth and you know no disrespect but they're not at all like it you know it might be a passing resemblance but.

“We really wanted to not just have a look like a sandbook course but have a play like a sandbook course which is the important part you know of the puzzle.”

How much of that was was required you to do a bunch of soil testing and figure out what kind of sand was there because it's a very specific type of soil profile and sand profile right to support bunkers like that and support bunker faces like that. It is what we didn't it was more probably the feel of the sand that we it was working in the sand that we felt that it was capable of holding up the lips. That the big part was the bunker edges we wanted the bunkers to go all the way into the green which hadn't really been done in the US.

And we've sort of would we built enough sandbelt courses to sort of we had a few tricks up as leave and we got the superintendent out to Australia and and wanted to make sure he was comfortable with it and. Yeah, so they were ended up sort of going down that path and it worked really successfully. It feels like we sort of feels like a sandbook course. Yeah, I mean it's only that but mute of grains really that that's the only you know we couldn't do that cross but. Yeah, so and we had our shape is that we'd worked within you know in the sandbelt as well so we had a really good team assembled.

And brilliant and like brilliant short for's and it feels like it's got the characteristics as well beyond just the aesthetic profile and you know the bunkers. And then we found a grass that. Congress used the same grass called tiff grand which is sort of in between greens height and fill a height I guess and that was the nearest thing we'd found actually we're looking at. We were at shell creek and they'd used it in the green surrounds there was really tight. I was the nearest thing we'd found to like the Santa Ana that you have in Melbourne where.

And we've got the ball fur that feeling of being able to compress the ball against the turf is very much a sandbelt thing you can you know and it spins or is it just felt like. So much of the muter in America the ball sort of sat up it was like almost too much air under the ball that makes sense. Which the average golf loves because they can clip the ball easily off the turf but it you can't compress it and spin it.

“So that was a really important part too.”

So we found that grass and again the superintendent was on board.

And we worked with an ecologist to basically select some plants and grasses from site that we felt was would give us the look of that sort of sandbelt.

So we did a lot of resetting around the course and then with with the other site we wanted something really different to the sandbelt course sandbelt course was big it was sort of 7400 yards big wide fell as about 70 or 75 acres of short grass.

We've always loved the Heathland and again it just it was a different part of the property and for whatever reason it kind of reminded us a little bit more of the Heathland courses it felt a bit more intimate.

“It's that kind of offering so 6600 yards six par threes so we again we if you're going to go down that path which is don't feel comfortable.”

You know dial it just sort of having this a passing resemblance to the Heathland we really wanted to go all in so we would.

We would travel there quite a bit but we ended up going back for about 10 or 12 days and just doing a bit of a refresher we took the superintendent again. And we kind of really wanted to be all in on this sort of Heathland style so the greens that there's a lot of restraint shown out there you know it's very easy on those sites to just. Sandy Wastes and you know extra fair way and listen that but we really we kept having to check ourselves and go this this is what we would normally do but we want this to be a Heathland so this is what we're going to pair it back.

So there's a lot of greens there that are on the ground we used to sort of some diagonal ridges different bunkers style so the bunkers one more we like to the Heathland more in the 30 so I guess then sort of current Heathland so.

“The bunkers have a little bit of a lacy edge to them different grass we went with Zoysia because we sort of Zoysia almost looks like a cool season grass kind of looks a bit fesky we.”

There's a lot of sand and the sandbelt bunkers and stuff we just thought everyone but it's interesting we've had a few clients have been there and lots of we here fade back from different people that have been there and it's really split it's like 50 50 which is the ultimate compliment it's the absolute awesome yeah I was surprised I thought it'd be more like 70 30 but. And even Jeff I think rocks playing the ace course more than the west course the six parties is really nice it's such a nice walk to like I feel like there's no like the floor is so high over there we're like you feel like every hole is just at least an eight you know eight or not it's just a bunch of eight lines put together and it's like there's no weak spots it's.

And it's just like it I mean Sally it's like playing the barc sure a little bit of like oh my gosh we get to play another part of the real like this oh hell yeah yeah yeah so.

I'm going to make sure it's over right down yeah you TC came back Raven when he when he went last year and I was not even though I heard of this place and. Added to the list for sure.

“A golf course we visited on our most recent tour saw season is recently announced Peninsula Kingswood is hosting the Australian open next year.”

Yeah you as we're redesigned that course.

What eight ten years ago now I guess at this point what can.

What's that like for you to see it come to to the Australian open come there and what could people expect from Peninsula Kingswood. Well I've got a great personal connection there so I joined there when I was 15 so. Yeah it's what did you join Peninsula Kingswood Peninsula yeah I joined Peninsula I had a lot of friends at Kingswood though which was the other course and. Yes I knew them both really well. Ashley and I when we started our careers with with Michael Clayton golf design they'd done work there so we'd kind of.

Been involved there since the start of our careers. And then I got a call in like 2014 or 2015 from the president at Kingswood to come in for a chat. And we started having coffee sort of every month or two and they were interesting they were. That club they could see the trend they membership were declining they didn't have enough money to maintain the course to the standard they wanted. And Kingswood were kind of suffering a similar thing peninsula was the perfect merger partner 36 holes under golf not many members and a great bit of land.

And so the merger happened and and then it sort of became a little bit like the Madonna story. They knew they had to add an irrigation system and a few other things. But then they figured all the hoods up why wouldn't we try and make it better and so the scope just kind of grew and grew and grew. And it became this sort of three or four year renovation project that was probably the biggest thing that had been done in Melbourne since the courses were built to be honest in the 20s. It was peninsula was the only course or there were two courses that when McKenzie came out in the 20s.

Him and and the people he partnered with Alex Russell and the Malcolm's kind of influenced every sand bill club you know so that McKenzie philosophy that the construction skills of the Malcolm's that that classic kind of sand bill look was evident pretty much all the sand bill courses except peninsula.

It was this great bit of land and yeah some renovation work had been done on it they were good courses I think the south course was about 40 or 45 in the country and the north might have been about 20. But we felt it could be a lot better and yeah we embarked on this major project the course conditioning there had never been great and we managed to approach the superintendent who was a friend from metropolitan.

We assembled this great team you know we introduced the greens to the edge of bunkers we rebuilt you know every part of that property.

“And yeah I think the north course is now rated about five in the country and the south so that 12.”

So that's a thing it's probably one of the best 36 hole facilities you know I would say it's in the top 10 in the world of 36 hole facilities the north snocking on the door of all top hundred I think it'll get there at some point. And it's this yeah it's a great bit of property interesting holes aesthetically there's a big wow factor there you know it looks fantastic so I think you know I think it's going to photograph incredibly well for the Australian open. Right around with a few different we continue to consult there and I'm still member there and we played around with a few different composite courses.

So I think they've chosen one they've been working with golf Australia said as I think they'll play a composite course for the tournament.

And I think people are going to be. Shocked and surprised I would say Americans tuning in because they most of them will never have heard of this place yeah and they'll sit on TV and suddenly it'll be it'll go straight into their top five on their bucket list.

“So I think it's it's going to be an incredible event I mean we're super excited and just and for a personal point of view just nice to see it you know in the spotlight.”

From an agronomy perspective or both courses there is at the same same grass types throughout on both the north and east. Yeah we we worked closely with Glenn the superintendent on a different construction method for the grains to try and get them firm.

So and now to there to the point where you get that incredible I don't know I'm trying to think what time you you guys were there but.

You can kind of drop your pattern on the green that sounds like you're dropping it on timber floorboards yeah so it's not that amazing yeah. So there is firm as anything you can that'll be super super firm for the event but it's consistent throughout which and we wanted.

“You know there's different pockets of the property that feel different but we.”

Deliberately didn't try and make the north course different from this half it's like this is a you know it's a consistent property throughout it should be the fairly similar style and I'm glad we did because that opens the door to compass of course you know where you couldn't do that was. One other place we visited that we we got to rock well walk around with you actually when we went for the. But it's sandy links you know we've talked that you talk a lot about some of the private golf courses you've done but what you've done there at sandy links is one of the coolest things I've been fortunate enough to see travel around the golf world.

Yes, and he was it's great great story it was kind of a joint venture between the government and golf Australia and the Australian PGA so. It's sort of become the the center of golf I guess for all of those body so it's a fairly big building all the high performance guys use it as a practice area so that took up some golf. So we had to kind of stitched the right in holes and so in the end we came up with the idea of you know given this so many great par threes and short path forwards around the Melbourne Sandbelt what if we had 18 holes that was kind of just a combination of.

Great threes and short forwards there's a couple of medium length path forwards but there's no path paths and it's it's maintained by real Melbourne they've got the lease on it and Richard Forsyth who is the super then. I sort of asked well is there a chance we could grasp it with the same sentence mix as the greens at real Melbourne and he came back and said yeah we could do that so. I like this idea that. You know for the average golfer they can't really get access to the sandbelt courses hard to get a game there you might be able to as a bucket list but you know once in your life but.

We like the idea of giving the average public golfer a sandbelt experience so they've got essentially the same greens as Royal Melbourne same bunker style. I'm firm fast conditions and just this combination of you know cool threes and short forwards and it's 50 or 60 bucks and. Yeah you can play any time you want so it's writing story Victoria and Roe Melbourne so it's a great pocket of golf in in Australia. So yeah so it's worth you know it's just fun it's just a fun you know it's wide and it's all the things we like with sandbelt golf.

We drove by a T.C. When did you guys do the work there? It was during Covid. So I was about twenty nine to twenty.

And then came back for the Asia Pacific, but so whoa, well that looks completely different than the last time we were here so.

“Yeah, yeah it was always they I mean it was always a bit of it.”

Yeah, it was just it was it was Dason but it was never they never had the money to spend on it.

Right. Yeah. We got to get you back on at some point talk Bonnie Dune hunting day.

“Yeah, I was like we're going to let you go now because I think we got another like two hours and we didn't we didn't warn you this was going to be three hours.”

Well, but hopefully we'll run into you when we're up at Medina for the president's cup, but I really appreciate you spend some time with us Mike and as T.C. likes to say things cocking is the future.

So we have we have to have you on here in the future as well, but thanks for spending some time with us. Okay, sure. Thank you guys. Great to say thank you.