A Medievalist of the Seven Kingdoms (with Dr. Hugh Doherty)

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and Grim and Mild from Aaron Monkey, listener discretion advised. Hi, this is Dana Schwartz and I am so thrilled to be here today with a very special interview. I'm talking to Dr. Hugh Dirty, who's a professor at the University of East Anglia in the UK.

“He focuses, I think, primarily on medieval topics, your lecture in medieval subjects,”

but very exciting to my personal interests is he served as the historical consultant on the truly excellent television series "Unite of the Seven Kingdoms." And I just want to be very clear. This is not a sponsored episode, no one is paying me to do this. I just genuinely, personally love television show so much. And so I'm personally so delighted to be speaking with you, Dr. Dirty.

Thank you for joining us. It's a pleasure to be here. Just to dive right in, can you talk a little bit about your field and your subjects that you primarily focus on when you're not consulting for historical fantasy series? I have an expertise in 10th and 11th and 12th century Europe.

And as I was always wearing choice, I wanted to teach, I mean, fascinised with the ancient history,

so I teach a module on the Roman Empire, and I also teach a module on the Hundred Years War. So I know a little about a lot. Well, that's sort of the motto for this podcast where I've covered several thousands of years of history. What I love about a night of the Seven Kingdoms and the Game of Thrones in general is it very clearly takes place in a fantasy world, but there are analogs to real British history.

“I think it's pretty clear that the original Game of Thrones series is a take on the wars of”

the roses in the 15th century and the house of the dragon sort of the prequel series seems inspired by the Anarchy, the period with Empress Matilda. When does the night of the Seven Kingdoms? I'm going to say take place, again, even though it is very much a fantasy series. I agree with everything you've said about, by the way, about a night of the Seven Kingdoms.

I've only seen the first two episodes at the moment.

Oh, you got to get on it. The ending, really. They really stick the ending. And I just thought they were marvellous. And in fact, they were so good. They made me go back and watch the house of dragon, which I had not seen. And I was absolutely, I'm only sort of halfway through season one, but absolutely spellbound. In answer to your really interesting observation and question by noting that I think George R. Martin is a superb historian. He knows his stuff.

It's not just he knows chronology and reigns and personalities, but he understands the operation of power

“in these societies. Like few other people do. And I think it's an a fantastic job.”

And it often, as I've said, that the game of thrones, house of dragon, and now night of Seven

that are allegedly about the Middle Ages. So I think that's an important point to note.

“I think night of Seven Kingdoms, when I talk to Ira Parker, the writer and showrunner, about the”

period. He'd asked George R. Martin, what was the sort of, you know, that if he had to spin it to a particular century, which century would it be? And George R. Martin came back with the 14th, and that

that is that, as you know, it is the age of the tournament and of the first two thirds of the

Hundred Years War. So how did you, obviously, you know a lot about the Hundred Years War in this period, how did you connect with Ira Parker who created the show alongside George R. Martin and the team at HBO? It's just luck. I've done this before. It all started by somebody, when I was at Oxford, I was at a search fellow, and someone at sort of the history faculty got me seem to phone call and the, and from a film company who needed somebody to advise on something else. There's as many

years ago, and this person, the person who answered the phone said, "Oh, I know someone." So I,

I said yes to that, and I've been sort of picking up the phone or answering emails ever since.

So it was, it was word of mouth, essentially. So it was a great joy to be asked as a fan of Game of Thrones long before all of this. It was a great, it was an honor to be asked. And essentially,

“it came down to Ira and myself having these interviews with Ira, I think, in LA and myself here,”

in North, in North, in England, just discussing tournament culture, nightly politics, warfare, hundred years' war. It was just fantastic because Ira wanted detail. He, more detail the better, and he had lots of fascinating questions. It was a real joy to sort of be engaged in the creative process at an early stage. I've been on productions where I've been invited in at the very last minute, and then to some extent, everything is fixed. While with this, I could suggest things that

could be then fed into the script and the writing. It's very exciting to me what this show did. And like you said, it captures the texture of the medieval world. Obviously, even though it takes place in a fantasy world. But what a night of the Seven Kingdoms does, that other Game of Thrones series, don't do, is it's very focused on a brief period of time, rather than, you know, spanning years, we are focused on one tournament. Can you tell us a little bit about what tournament culture

was like in the 1300s in England? I was start by saying that there is a sort of, there was a nightly culture that united all of Europe. So the same men who, on battlefields are trying to kill each other are on the tournament field, interacting with each other as competitors and sportsmen, and as colleagues and as fellow diners and feasters, it's an aspect of elite culture that draws men and women from across Europe. So it's something that they share. So while at the same time,

they're often killing each other in the great battlefields and sieges of the hundred years war. At the same time, the in moments of, of trusses or peace or sometimes interacting with these campaigns, they are also participating in these tournaments. They were a splendid opportunities for the elite of Europe together to show off their wealth, their accouturements, their gear, their

households, and the comparison I've always made is that tournaments were much like film festivals.

In that, it was as much about what was happening after the film showings, the swarrays, their dinners as what's happening in the film showings. And so it was as much about what's happening off the tournament field as on it. There's no doubt that there is the principal action is the demonstration of skill at arms on the tournament field for all to see. And then this will occupy each day. And then in the evenings, there will be feasting and dancing and poetry and

“interaction between competitors and between women and families and households. And I think that”

the night of the seven kingdoms did a brilliant job in bringing that out. That interaction that happens are off the tournament field. So there was great drama on the field. And that tournament

also reenact episodes from antiquity, from the classical world, all from the legendary world. So it develops in Spain, actually, this notion that nights would hold a bridge and would defy any other night to cross the bridge or that they would reenact a battle of King Arthur. It's like children playing red rover, King of the Hell. Absolutely. There's a, it's as much about reenactment and display. It's a celebration of the

aristocratic imagination.

What I always found, you brought up King Arthur. I've always found it personally fascinating that

two a modern layperson, their conception of King Arthur, if they're imagining him, is in the 14th century as a night of chivalry when, of course, King Arthur, who didn't exist. If he did exist at all, would have been, you know, 9th century. But I find it very interesting that our popular image of this character is in the era where he was popularized. Absolutely. I know of medievalists who don't like the kind of thing I do, who, you know,

laugh at or comment on sort of making a fantasy world accurate, and to give it texture and so on.

“But I think it's what's really interesting is that the kind of world that George R. Martin has created,”

is one that any 14th, 15th century audience would have loved. I mean, the tales of

nightly drama, of heroes rising through the ranks. This is that world of Arthur that they love reading about, hearing about, and re-enacting. So there is actually a nice continuation between the, as you say, the legendary world of Arthur that they believe in and they love, and that has shaped Western culture, you know, the pre-raffelites, Wagner, Excalibur, up to Game of Thrones. It's part of a, in a way, a shared tradition that we are still buying into.

They were celebrating King Arthur as a fictional night, the same way we were talking about Sir Duncan the Tal. Absolutely, absolutely. And in the, in the same way that people who watched the

night of serving Kingdoms on a Sunday evening in the States on Monday evening here,

we'd go to work the following day. You think? Exactly. With their, their imaginations capture, there's there on the, beyond the ground of a bus or driving to work, and they're thinking about

“tournament culture and daring do and honour and all this sort of thing. I think the 14th”

century audience thought exactly the same when they were on their way to church or, you know, going to see family or going to the law courts or inspecting their stables. They were also thinking about Arthur and the night to the round table. So it, they, it populated their imaginative landscapes. And to be frank, and I don't want to generalize, but it does seem like for most people being alive in the 14th century would have been quite boring and bleak and challenging and physically

arduous. I imagine these tournaments were a opportunity for a chance for levity and fun and community that might not, you know, you might might just be church and working in a field the rest of the time. They were immensely popular. They were great fun. I would say no age likes to think of themselves as an age of boredom. And when we have evidence, there is a lot of drinking, merry-making, dancing in the lives of peasant farmers. I mean, that's not, there's also starvation

and there is harsh justice and there is a famine around this era. Exactly. So the, and plague, but you know, plague is no respect to a rank, was no respect to a rank as Covid was no respect to a rank. And we've, it's also been pointed out the number of Saint's days. Saint's days are holidays and there are so many Saint's days. It's sometimes difficult to say how many days these farmers are actually working. They got more time off than most Americans. Absolutely, but having said all that,

there is no doubt that tournaments were in immense drawer for all different sections of society.

“I think what we also have to remember is that it was talked about. So even if people weren't there,”

it was talked about and listened to in the weeks and months afterwards. And that, that was a, I remember being an restaurant and listening to an account of a football match as another table and more or less, all of the restaurant was gripped by the discussion of this match that only that table had seen. So I, the same I think was true in the little, even more true than the

telling. So in a real tournament in the 14th century, if I were a knight or a nobleman competing,

what would be its stake for me? Not to your life, not to your life. So it's very rare for knights to be killed. Now they were, sometimes were, sometimes as a result, because it's a dangerous sport. And sometimes because there is suspicion of murder, they use a lance, they shouldn't have done. The lance is meant to have this sort of non-lethal end, but that could sometimes be altered. So it was lethal. There are deaths, but they would above what was at stake on a glory above all.

It's slightly different from the tournament of the 12th and 13th century where you could make your fortune by capturing other knights and then setting off their horses, their armour and even

“ransoning them. When you take capturing other knights, do you mean just beating them in a jost?”

Yeah, unhorsing them. And then as it were. So the 12th century and 13th century tournaments weren't

as we imagine them as they became in the 14th century. They were sort of pitched battles where killing wasn't the objective capture was. And they were full of a large sort of football fields. So these huge battles taking place where they're not killing each other, they're just trying to capture each other. And then you could sell off your captives to make a nice fortune. It altars. So in the 13th and then the 14th century it becomes much more display of arms and a quest for honour and glory.

And it's just about making impression on all of the glamorous people, the men and the women as much as the men who are present and for showing off your horsemanship, your skillet arms,

“that's what's at stake. And we can't underestimate the importance of honour for these men and women.”

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Something I sort of have imagined from popular culture is a night

extending his lands and getting the favor of a woman, or maybe tying a ribbon to the end of the lands. Was that something that actually occurred? Yes, absolutely. In fact, it's even more our evidence has even richer and more complex. We have high status women decided who was the champion after so many days of fighting. It wasn't just simply about calculating points and scoring victories, but a noble woman might often be entrusted with deciding who was the braveest the most

skillful night or dispensing with a range of prices or giving the price. It might even be a wild animal. We know of one tournament where the price being competed for was a bear.

“What would you do with a bear if you want? I bet is it bear-baiting? Is that the answer?”

I don't know. Henry II has a bear in the 12th century. I think bears would do tricks. And I think it was just such a large and hungry beast to feed that it was kind of, you know, it was a demonstration of wealth and power. So you come home from the tournament and you bring back a bear. I can't imagine anyone's wife being too pleased about that. No, though it's a noble woman, according to this evidence, who gave the bear away, who was in charge

of the bear and gave it as the gift to the victor, though when we went Henry Earl of Derby in the 1390s, he went to join the totonic nights in their one of their campaigns. And he goes twice.

And on the second time, he misses them. They've already campaigned in the summer against the

Lithuanians. So he goes on it because he's got money. This is the future, Henry IV. He goes on a kind of great pilgrimage to Jerusalem, around Europe and he picks up all these gifts and he comes back with a leopard. And so you could, you know, the the monasteries of these aristocrats at these tournaments could be quite spectacular. I mean, that sounds spectacular. Who, in general, is funding

“these tournaments? Is it always the king, local, noblemen? Is there a system in place?”

It's largely paid for out of the noblemen, the noblemen, if they want a tournament, they pay for it. Well, there are some tournaments where because they're, it's quite a high profile tournament. Kings get involved and they'll, they'll fund it. They'll pay for the whole thing. Because it, you know, there's a very famous tournament in France in 1390 in which three great French nights challenge all of Europe to battle them. And it takes place over a really significant

tournament. I think like 30 days of fighting as a demonstration of endurance, it's very impressive. It's paid for by the French king because it's bringing great honour and glory to the French kingdom. He didn't start with him, but once he hears about it, he wants to sort of support it, so he funds it.

“I mean, that makes sense. At 30 days also seems like such a long time, where bats like don't,”

don't you have jobs to do? Aren't there any wars to fight? Absolutely. The fascinating thing is a recent study of this particular tournament demonstrates that it's happening up the road from where the negotiations were being conducted between the French and English delegations.

Trying to thrash out a piece, so it looks like there's actually overlap. People are moving from powerful

negotiating to the tournament field, so that at the tournament itself, you know, over the drinks and the feasting at night, they're also talking about how they can work out a lasting piece, which is very interesting. I mean, that is, that's such an interesting contrast that there's this lasting piece and then this faux battle happening juxtaposed, literally right next door to each other. Absolutely. And these are men. The three nights are all involved in the hundred years war.

One of them, in fact, would be captured what 25 years later at Ashenkor. So, you know, it's really fascinating how these individuals turn up in all these different campaigns and tournaments. When you mentioned earlier that their lives wouldn't necessarily be at risk in these tournaments, which are not intended to be deadly. But of course, accidents do happen. I mean, a few centuries after the period that we're talking about, the King of France, who was Henry II, will die in a

In particular, in the 13th century, there are a number of high ranking casualties who are

“killed in tournaments. And in both cases, murder is suspected.”

Interesting. As in, people wanted to sort of use the cover of the tournament to kill people that they actually wanted to kill. Absolutely. So, there was aristocratic feuding and they wanted to settle schools. There are, of course, jewels to the death, a bit like your cat in that microphone. You know, one of the most famous jewels is fought at the French court and was the subject of that very good

film the last jewel about a charge of rape. And that is, that is to the death. So, there are these incidents. I mean, Henry, Earl of Derby, who I've just mentioned, was compelled to fight a jewel

“with Thomas Malbury, Duke of Norfolk, over charges of treason in 1399 before he was exiled by”

Richard II. He didn't, the jewel was never fought at Coventry, but it came very close to being

waged and then was stopped by the king. The last jewel, which Ridley Scott made a film of phenomenal film, I thought. I thought it was excellent. That also captured what a jewel to the death was like. So, they do occur, but the jewels are set for it from the, from the tombs. One other thing that occurs in the television show, night of the seven kingdoms, is a trial by combat. They'd end up doing a trial where it's seven against seven. I hope I'm not spoiling

anything that I won't reveal any outcomes. But is it trial by combat, something that actually occurred

during this period? Absolutely. And it had been a part of elite culture and justice from a very

early date. I mean, from a sort of post-Roman date, late antiquity. The evidence from among the those who settled in the Roman Empire from the fifth and sixth century of this kind of means of resolving feud of fighting jewels. So, it goes from being part, it seems of pagan Germanic elite culture to being something within the Christian fold that jewels are fought often as a result of charges of treason in the 11th and 12th century. So, when men are our charged with treason,

they deny it. And then they have to fight to defend their position. And there we have an account from a jewel that is fought in flanders in the summer of 1127. And it's horrific. It's just like the jewel in the game of thrones where the chap's eyes are pulled out or squashed out. And there's something not quite the same, but something similar. We have an account of it. It takes place after the assassination of the counter-flanders in 1127 that sets off a chain of events that leads to civil war in flanders.

And there is this jewel about charges of complicity in the assassination. And we have an iron it's account of the jewel in which one sort of one of the knights against another, more or less disembouse the opponent. And then the opponent, as he's dying, is then executed. Because he's lost the jewel, which is God's judgment. He's thus being found guilty. So, really quite unsettling. Going quite uncomfortable, too, to physically imagine.

Uncomfortable, yes, absolutely. One slightly lighter question to end on. Another theme in Night of the Seven Kingdoms is Sigils and Symbols on Shields. Can you speak a little bit about

“what the purpose and meaning of these heraldic symbols were? And if you have any personal favorites?”

This is really interesting because the tournament appears to emerge out of a tradition of cavalry games that goes back to the Roman period. So we know that the Romans liked their military cavalry entertainment. And that then develops in the frank in the early Middle Ages under Shala Mine and his successes. And out of that, in the late 11th century, very likely in northeast what is now northeast France, Belgium and the Netherlands. There emerges a tournament

culture. Why that should be remains unclear. But associated with that is the development fascinatingly of heraldry. So the history of tournaments and heraldry are seem to be closely connected.

And there's been no real evidence of heraldry of aristocratic houses. That change is in the

late 11th century. And it's linked to tournaments. And it looks like that different families are keen to demonstrate their presence, their power, their identity, their membership with these choice of arms. And it's decoration on their shields and on their ennence. So you look at the

“bayotapestry and there's very limited, very, very limited heraldic decoration. I think there's a dragon”

on a couple of the shields of the knights and the bayotapestry. There's a dragon standard. But otherwise, there's an absence of heraldry. But 40 years later, after 1066, 1070, the

day to the bayotapestry, more or less, arms are being used by elite families. And as the period

proceeds 13, 14 centuries, they get quite complex or and very colourful and very interesting. My favorite is a bit earlier from the early 12th century. There's the seal matrix of a English sheriff and justice. And it's a very peculiar because it shows a knight fighting a monster, a kind of Griffin-like beast who is holding a kind of small other beast in its mouth. It's not quite clear what's going on. It looks like that the small of beast is directing

the greater beast against this knight. It's like a crane situation. It's like a small,

small guy controlling a big guy. Absolutely, it's exactly that. And it's really fascinating.

It's clearly an insight into how this knight saw himself as a kind of fighter against the forces of darkness on behalf of his king. So it's a really fascinating insight into a mentality. I love that. If you have access to it, please, please email it to me. I would love to see that. But it is fascinating to imagine that these knightly heralds are performative more than functional in that sense. If they, if they corresponded with the rise of these tournaments, they were outward

“facing symbols. And I think that's an interesting analysis. Absolutely. But I mean, said that”

I would also want to make the point that they then, of course, as you know, they do, they are then functional. And in the, in the stress of battle, you know, seeing these standards. And in the close visor of these helmets, seeing a standard of your lord or of your king is can rally your spirit and can also show you where to rush to. There's no accident that Henry the fifth placed himself at Ashenko right on the front line with his royal war helm so that everybody could see where he was

to rally the lords in other words in the heat of battle. And of course, something to bring it all back together, something I think that night of the seven kingdoms communicates very well. Is it it is difficult to see in those visors? Absolutely. If you lose sight of your of your lord, I mean, going back to the the Bay of Tapestry, Battle of Hastings, if it seems like your king is down, who knows what to do? Absolutely. Confusion and terror of battle. In fact, there are two different

kinds of helmet. There is the tournament helmet, which is a big showy, offy gear. And then there's a sort of battle helmet where a lot like Israeli tank commanders were trained to drive with their heads out of the tank hatch to give maximum mobility in the 1960s and 70s nights in English armies and French armies in the 14th century preferred helmets without visors so that they could see the action. It was much more dangerous of course. Henry the fifth gets an arrow as a 16 year old boy in his face

at the Battle of Hastings because he's got his visor up because he wants to see what's happening and lead his men. It's a serious business. It's a serious business. I've already taken far too much of your time. This is I could talk to you for hours. This is fascinating. One last question just before you go, how do you feel something very exciting for medievalists is about to happen in the UK, which is the Bay of Tapestry coming back? I'm very, very excited. I'm also deeply nervous.

“That's what people say. It's a little controversial. You know, I can see post Brexit, the B word,”

good thing to be reminded of our remarkable and rich shared history with the continent. I'm a bit a bit anxious about the transport of this remarkable object. I mean, you know, it is very, very fragile and it should be preserved. It survived after all. It has survived

and it needs to be preserved so that future generations can enjoy its fascinating detail.

“If I'm correct, Harold, Harold with an arrow to the eye. Absolutely. It's everything about”

the Bay of Tapestry is an enigma and a challenge. The problem with that is that we think we're not actually sure which figure because it says Harold, but it's not quite clear which figure is Harold. There is a figure with an arrow and then just to complicate things more, there is evidence that the arrow is a 19th century restoration. Oh no! So even something as sort of accepted and known as the arrow in Harold's eye and the Bay of Tapestry, which not even certain if it's part of the original

decoration. It is that there is everything about the Bay of Tapestry is an enigma. The more you look

at it, the more complex and the more interesting it becomes. I know. I just gave a thousand

“medievalists a heart attack by saying Harold died with an arrow to the eye, reinforcing the historical”

myth. I was just a seminar where the historian was talking exactly on this point. It hallowed Maystil of died by an arrow and there may be an arrow there in the tapestry that may indeed be Harold. There's just this problem that there is evidence of slight heavy-handed restoration in the 19th century. I'm sure that historians medievalists still alive. Okay good. Dr. Dirty, I cannot

thank you enough for your time for this fascinating conversation. I can see why Hollywood keeps calling

you. It's just a pleasure to talk to you. It's been a pleasure, Dada. Really, thank you. [Music]

“Noble blood is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky.”

Noble blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz. Riders for Noble blood are Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Paul Jaffy, Natasha Lasky and me, Dana Schwartz. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Nome Scrippen with supervising producer Rima Il Kayali and executive producers Aaron Manky, Trevor Young and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the on-purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Noah Kahn. The singer songwriter behind the multi-platinum global hit sticks season on one of the biggest voices in music today. Talking about the mental illness stuff, it used to be the sting that I was ashamed of. Getting the talk about this is not common for me. Right now, I need it more than ever. Listen to on-purpose Rijay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you

get your podcasts. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1, including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F1 romance novels and plenty of mishab scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for

more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shanker, a cognitive scientist and host of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long, the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions, you can have

like a strong stance and then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I Heart podcast, guaranteed human.