Andrew Huberman: The Simple Habits That Will Transform Your Health

Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. Today's guest is one of your favorites. This isn't his first time.

Not a second time but it's third time on the show, Dr. Andrew Huberman, a neuroscientist, professor at Stanford School of Medicine and creator of the Human Lab podcast. Andrew's new book, Protocols, an operating manual for the human body, is a practical guide to improving your health, energy, focus and performance using science back tools for everyday life. Andrew, Huberman, welcome to On Purpose. Thanks for having me back, Jay, great to see you. I know we want to spend more time together than we get to, but after we want to say that whenever we do get together, I feel like we have the best conversations.

It's rich. Yeah, I'm very grateful. I want to dive straight in and ask you, seeing as protocols is all about a manual for the human body.

“If the human body came with an instruction manual, what's the first page everyone should read?”

Get sunlight first thing in the morning.

You know, the title in the book, Protocols, is both accurate and a little bit misleading. Accurate because, indeed, the book has lots of protocols for sleep for navigating stress, neuroplasticity and learning and on and on. But the goal of the book is that these protocols, of which there are many, but there will be more in the future, can be organized into simple frameworks that allow people to be healthier, mentally and physically, but also live their life with more ease and peace.

“And I think right now, thanks to podcasts like yours, podcasts like mine and others.”

In the last five years, we've arrived at a place where it's very clear what the core elements of health and wellness are.

But one of them, which is social connection and ease and peace, internal and hopefully external as well, is a little bit incompatible with the rest if the rest is all about doing lots of protocols and optimization. So the fundamental theme of the book, despite the title, is to look at your day, check with yourself, and figure out what you can do that's in alignment with who you are, that allows you more peace and ease, and that also allows you to be healthier and quote unquote optimize, although I'm a bit anti-optimization in the classic sense, it's really about getting your morning sunlight, why?

Because there's a larger principle there, to wake up your body so that you have more alertness, better mood, and so that it sets you up for better sleep at night. So it's not about ticking off a thousand different things, or even just that one or two things are the things, although some move the lever more than others in terms of health and wellness. It's about understanding some of your biology, so that on any given day, you can do the things that are most accessible to you and that you enjoy the most.

“Maybe a few things that you have to push yourself to do here and there, but the book protocols is really to tell people what to do that we know works, to improve mental health and physical health, to make those very clear as to why you're doing them.”

It's an important factor for reasons we could discuss, and then also, you know, because in my heart's heart, I'm a scientist, to give people access to this beautiful thing that's biology, to really understand their bodies and minds at the level of physiology a bit, so that they can really come to appreciate what we've been given and make the best of it. So it's not about becoming a robot, it's not about biohacking, it's not about optimization in the classic sense of any of those words, it's really about taking the best science, understanding why certain things work, and then applying those in a way that's really compatible with one's life, and indeed gives you more peace and ease.

So it's not intended to raise pressure, it's intended to reduce the amount of pressure in one's life. This episode of On Purpose is presented to you by Mazda. Peace of mind doesn't happen by chance, it's created through the habits we build before we have a need them. That's the philosophy behind every Mazda, with proactive safety features that help keep you more aware, more connected and more engaged, Mazda helps you feel ready for whatever the road brings. It's why Mazda has been named consumer reports safest new car brand, and as of July 2026, Mazda has won more 20206, I.I.H.S. top safety pick plus awards than any other car brand.

Visit www.I.I.H.S.org to learn more. A lot can happen when an accident doesn't visit MazdaUSA.com to learn more, consumer reports does not endorse products or services, I think we oscillate as humans between doing nothing and doing everything,

I think the protocols that you are suggesting and even the spirit in which you're suggesting them, I like, do what you can, start the alignment, build those habits.

“If someone wants to start their day off in the best way possible, what should they be doing in the first hour of the day to ensure that they have a great day?”

I'll tell you what I do, because I don't think it's that far out of reach for most people, probably all be completed in 30 minutes or less, and it's compatible with having other people around, having others to take care of and so on.

First thing I do when I wake up is I get up and use the restroom, then I get back in bed, and I do a 10 breath to 5 minute meditation.

I have this idea that I think is well supported by the literature that if I can't get my mind into a state of focused awareness, if that's what we want to call the sort of meditation that I do, focus to awareness for 10 breaths, I'm going to have a hard time navigating the day with the most intention and peace, and making the best decision. So I do a 10 breath meditation, and I ask myself, was I able to focus on all 10 breaths? If so, I get out of bed. If not, I do 5 minutes. It's so brief, and my lab, some years ago, published a randomized control trial with another lab at Stanford, a David Spiegel's lab, where we actually saw benefits of a 5 minute per day meditation.

It was in comparison to some breath work and things like that sort that were also beneficial. But just a 5 minutes per day meditation, as an outside positive effect on reducing heart rate, increasing heart rate variability, improving mood, improving sleep, and all these things, but very few people, as you know, stick to a meditation practice. So I force that 10 breath meditation as a requirement to get into the day. If I complete the 10 breaths, occasionally I'll do the 5 minutes anyway, but if I don't, I hold myself to the 5 minutes.

So we're about 5 minutes into the day, including the walk to the bathroom and back. I get up. I drink water. The reason I drink water, of course, is to quote unquote hydrate. But what I'm going to describe in the next minute or so, are three things that are all designed to believe it or not, spike my morning cortisol. Most people will say, "Why would you want to spike cortisol to stress hormone?" I'll explain in a few minutes why I do these things.

But the principle here, if people take away nothing else from today's discussion, it's do things in the first hour of your day.

To deliberately elevate your cortisol. It will give you elevated mood focus and alertness all day, improved cognition, and it sets you up for low cortisol and great sleep at night.

“This is perhaps the most important thing in all of health and wellness, I believe.”

So I get bright light in my eyes. If the sun is out, I go outside. If it's a cloudy day, I do it anyway. Still lots of bright light on a cloudy day. I know where sunglasses are breamed hat for this. I look in the direction of the sun. I might bring my dog with me, I might bring my partner with me, Penny on, who's around. And I just look in the direction of the sun. I don't force myself to stare at it.

I just get some sunlight in my eyes, which spikes morning cortisol by up to 50% above its baseline levels. Keep in mind, you wake up every morning in part in large part because of a rising cortisol. It's called the cortisol awakening response. So I'm spiking my morning cortisol with bright light and the hydration the water actually further elevates cortisol. So now I've done two things to spike my cortisol. It's taken what five, seven minutes total.

“So I'm about 10 minutes into the day if I'm tracking correctly.”

Why are we trying to spike our cortisol? You want to spike morning cortisol because morning cortisol, if it's elevated, is what is going to give you energy to get through your day. And most importantly, cortisol is on what's called a negative feedback loop. So once your cortisol hits a certain level, it now starts to shut itself down. And that's going to be a slow shut down into the early afternoon and evening.

There are lots of markers of health and of illness.

But one of the primary markers of health is a high cortisol level in the first hour to three hours of the day.

I mean, really high. Now, people with cushions disease is pathologically elevated, but that's not the situation we're talking about. Most people are not getting enough bright light in their eyes in the early part of the day. Not enough movement, not enough hydration. And so they get a spike in cortisol. That's indeed why they woke up.

Even with an alarm clock, your cortisol spikes. We can talk about this a bit more later, but if your cortisol doesn't go high enough, it's very susceptible to inflections in the afternoon and evening. So the fundamental principle here is you want your morning cortisol high because it gives you lots of energy and ability to move through the day.

It's actually positive for your immune system function. And we're you, too, unless just face it, you're likely to face some bouts of stress, work stress, relational stress, et cetera. During the day, you will get little blips in cortisol. Maybe even big spikes in cortisol is the consequence of that stress.

But how quickly those spikes return to baseline is critically dependent on having high morning cortisol.

You recover from stress better if your morning cortisol was high.

“Okay, conversely, if your cortisol peak in the morning isn't high enough,”

you get what's called a flattening of the cortisol curve. This is bad for mental health. This is bad for blood sugar regulation. By the way, the pattern I describe of wanting high morning cortisol and low night time cortisol is not a male specific thing.

This is true for women, pregnant women, kids, everybody. Cancer treatment does better when people have high morning cortisol low after noon cortisol. That was shown by my colleague, Gave it Spiegel, Stanford School of Medicine. If you deliberately spike your morning cortisol, you will find that no you're not anxious.

You recover from stress more quickly. You have more energy through your day. And towards the afternoon, you'll feel that natural kind of subsiding of your energy levels. This is because cortisol's main role is not to stress you out, right?

A nature didn't design us with these hormones to stress us out.

It's gotten this unfair reputation as a stress hormone. Cortisol's job is to mobilize energy in particular glucose blood sugar from your liver and elsewhere in your body so that you have energy. It's also responsible for causing its own shutdown. So if you get a lot of cortisol, it'll shut itself down.

Unless you're going through the day moving into the morning slowly, it's fine to wake up and be peaceful. I'm not saying you have to be stressed. I'm not looking at the sun. You're going to stress myself out.

But the next thing I do is I get some physical exercise. If I don't have time for a full workout, I'll do some sort of exercise. Maybe 25 jumping jacks. Maybe a walk. These days I have a new puppy.

“I walk the dog every morning and that's what I'll do for the rest of his life.”

Just a walk. If you can get a full blown workout in great, you know, 45 minutes to an hour, that can be a very intense workout. Most people will find that if they work out early in the morning, early for their morning, notice I'm not getting specific times.

But within the first three hours of their day, they have more energy all day long.

It's because it makes that morning cortisol spike higher. Intense exercise late in the day spikes one's cortisol very, very high. Now better to exercise than not exercise late in the day. But if you do exercise late in the day, you'll want to do things to lower that cortisol as you head into your night time. Yeah, we'll get to that.

We'll get to that. So when cortisol is high in the morning, melatonin levels go up at night, they're on a sea saw. High cortisol means low melatonin. High melatonin means low cortisol. High cortisol means lots of glucose mobilization and body temperature goes up.

One of the conditions for getting melatonin, the hormone that most people now realize, makes a sleepy comes from the pineal, is a dropping body temperature. So a lot of people, especially a few years ago, but certainly still now are waking up, they're on their phone and bed. Independent of what they're seeing there, the light coming from it seems bright.

But in the morning, it's not nearly bright enough to spike your cortisol. And they're getting up, they're moving slowly into the day. Then they might look at some things that stress them out. Okay, that stress induced cortisol, cortisol levels are still far too low. As the day goes on, they've got this flattening of the cortisol curve.

Now they're really set up to have the classic falling asleep fairly easily and waking up at two or three in the morning. Why is that happening? Well, as you get into the evening, your cortisol should be low, low, low, low. I don't want to use precise times because people go to bed at different times.

But let's assume about four hours into your sleep or five hours. It should be at its all-time low for the 24 hour cycle. Then it slowly just naturally starts climbing on its own. Now, if you didn't spike your morning cortisol, what happens is you might fall asleep just fine. But somewhere around two or three in the morning, people wake up.

It's that cortisol awakening response happening too early. Wow. So again, if nothing else, spike your morning cortisol and get into the day. So it's bright light. If you don't have access to sunlight for some reason, one could purchase one of these 10,000

luck artificial lights, or what's used for a seasonal effective depression in Scandinavian countries. There are about a hundred dollars. I don't have any relationship to companies that sell them. They're all more less equivalent. Getting that bright light in your eyes will also spike your cortisol.

Sunlight would be better. And then hydration, some form of movement. People who do this immediately notice they have more energy during that day. And your resilience to stress is really the best feature. Something happens in the afternoon and things happen.

When it cuts you off in traffic, et cetera, you'll notice I'm in just sort of a calmer. I fall asleep more easily. My sleep is deeper. It's because that morning cortisol spike sets you up for all the right hormonal, neurotransmitter-based features throughout the morning and the rest of the day. And at night, that you're seeking.

So for a long time, I was like most people thinking protocols of, you know, cold plunges and, you know, and what should I eat in the morning, low carb or high carb should I fast, et cetera. And many of those have value. I talk about some or all of those in my book.

“But if you think, what can I do today to elevate my cortisol?”

In healthy ways, of course, in the morning? And what can I do in the evening? To keep my cortisol low. Many of the things that people struggle with. Low energy, mood issues, issues with stress.

Challenges falling and staying asleep.

And, you know, any doctor with some background and endocrinology will tell you, yeah, indeed. High morning cortisol and low nighttime cortisol are important. But that low nighttime cortisol is tethered to the high morning cortisol. But why do so many of us crash around two, three p.m.? And what can we do to find energy without turning to caffeine or other sources?

Yeah, well, I'm raising my hand because I'm one such person that crashes in the afternoon. The crash in the afternoon, provided it's not really dramatic.

It's not always such a bad thing.

Your rates of energy have to do with a lot of things blood sugar regulation and so on. But one of the primary determinants is whether your body is heating up or cooling down quickly. Now, the cortisol curve, as we call it, that I just described, more or less mirrors your body temperature curve. Your body temperature is increasing in the final hours of sleep. This is a good thing.

Once it reaches a certain threshold and your cortisol reaches a certain threshold, you wake up. Okay, so this is good. Your body temperature will continue to rise, but then somewhere in the early afternoon, your body temperature starts to drop. When the rate of temperature drop is high when your temperature is dropping fast,

that is you're going to feel sleepy. So this is also why you get sleepy at night.

“When your body temperature is falling fast, that's what allows you to get into sleep.”

For most people, this happens around between two and three PM. You can adjust the size of your lunch. People will talk about that. You can eat a few fewer, a starchy carbohydrates at lunch. That can help.

You can wait a few maybe an hour or so in the morning before adjusting caffeine. I've talked about this for a number of years. A lot of people don't like this, but that will eliminate the afternoon crash for a lot of people. For reasons related to cortisol and a molecule called adenosine that we could get into. My personal favorite way of dealing with this is simply to embrace it.

And to do 10 minutes of yoga nidra in the afternoon or five minutes of meditation, or even just lying down feet elevated for five minutes with one's eyes closed and not doing anything at all except not tapping away in one's phone has been shown to restore mental and physical vigor. Really hours that follow. Because it's kind of remarkable, right?

You have energy in the morning. Most of the time, you get to the afternoon and you're dragging. And then a few hours later, you're alert again. So it can't simply be this adenosine thing where, oh, you know, the longer your awake adenosine accumulates that makes you sleepy.

That's basically the way it works.

Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors. That's how caffeine works.

“It blocks the function of the sleepy molecule.”

Caffeine wears off and people tend to crash a bit. This is why delaying your caffeine a little bit in the morning can be a good thing. You can clear out more adenosine before you have your caffeine. So there isn't a whole lot waiting around because normally, let's say I wake up, slam back some caffeine right away.

Great. You're into the day. It even spikes your cortisol a little bit. So you'd say, well, that's good. Well, you probably had some residual adenosine from your previous night's sleep.

It built up the previous day, sleep clears it out, but you probably still have some there. Maybe even some residual melatonin. If you immediately drink caffeine, you plug the receptors for adenosine. But the adenosine didn't go away.

Now you're into your day.

You're doing all your activities. And then somewhere around 2pm, that caffeine wears off. The adenosine is still there. It's compounded with the adenosine you generate throughout the day. And boom, you get a crash.

So just delaying your caffeine by 60 to 90 minutes. I know some people are probably going into shock hearing about that. 60 to 90 minutes can offset the crash for a lot of people. But I've tried a number of different things. And frankly, if I can grab that 10 minutes or some days, 20,

but usually it's just 10 to do 10 minutes of quiet breathing or yoginidra, non-sleep deep rest, which I know you and I are both huge fans of. Your restoration and mental and physical vigor is really striking. And the best part about meditation or yoginidra, or non-sleep deep rest, which is sort of an analog to that,

is that you don't get sleep inertia. A lot of people, if they nap in the afternoon, it disrupts their nighttime sleep. Or they feel groggy after the nap. Then they're drinking more caffeine.

And now they're disrupting their sleep at night. So a short break in the afternoon where you're, I guess you could be on your phone, but ideally you just let your mind wander, and you move out of the planning state of mind,

and you get just into sensation in some way. Some long exhales, because as we've talked about before,

“to put it very simply, if you want to breath work in one sentence,”

if you emphasize your inhales in any kind of breath work, it speeds your heart rate up, you become more alert. If you emphasize your exhales, make them longer, or just even focusing on them. Mentally, because normally we passively exhale,

slows your heart rate down through something called respiratory science. It rhythmic and balls the vagus nerve, but you don't need to know any of that. All you need to know is if you emphasize your inhales, make them deliberately more vigorous or longer,

your heart rate speeds up, you'll become more alert. If you emphasize your exhales, focus on them, make them longer, your heart rate will slow down. So five minutes of just sitting there and checking in, and just trying to deliberately exhaling your heart rate

would slow right down. This is physiology. There's nothing mystical about that, but in a beautiful way, the yogis and have to be cautious not to credit anyone group for thousands of years,

So those short breaks of 10 minutes in the afternoon,

not only embrace the quote unquote crash, but they allow you to move around it.

“I think a lot of people just try and power through.”

Now keep in mind as I list off these things, you might say, "Well, who has time for this?" But the morning thing only takes about 30 minutes total, and I've got a bright light in my kitchen, one of these 10,000 lux lamps.

So I'm doing that while I'm making my morning coffee or I drink latte these days, or, you know, I go outside to get sunlight, I'm also walking my dog, get some socialization of my partner,

like the, you know, get some socializing experiment. We socialize, we talk. I have to be careful because the nerd speaks something. People go, "Oh my God, he's a robot." - I hope she likes socializing things. - I hope she does too.

The whole idea here is that none of this takes much time. I've learned over the last five years or six years of doing public health discourses that it can feel like a lot. Like, "Oh my God, this is a lot a lot."

So one of the goals in the book was to let people understand their biology, and just to remind them, "Yeah, you're trying to elevate your morning cortisol. There are a bunch of paths to that."

“And you have to renew and you're trying to bring it down.”

Just to love energy, night you're really trying to bring it down. So this notion that you have to do all the things is not true. I think that a good analog would be exercise, where, you know, we know that people should resist and strain

and they should do cardiovascular exercise. They should probably do some mobility and flexibility work too. Sounds like a lot. Then you break it down and resistance training is really about,

you know, doing some warm-up and doing some compound movements, some multiple joint movements, you know, hip hinge, press pull, this kind of thing. And if you do that and then you have to leave, you're still pretty good.

Yeah, right? Mobility, you know, get your knee behind your glutes a few times a day, because we don't do that enough. Not when we walk, not when we sit, et cetera. So get your knee behind your glute.

There are a number of ways to do that. You do camel-plows and yoga. You put your foot up on a couch. Like there are a number of ways to stretch out the hip flexors, right? Anything of the cardiovascular thing is,

does it have to be 180 minutes of zone two, okay fine. That's one way to phrase it. The other way to phrase it is, walk as much as possible every day. Walk less one day because you're on a plane.

Walk more the next. Take the stairs, not the escalator in the airport if you can. This kind of thing. And try and get your heart rate really high once per week, at least.

Get on a treadmill, warm up,

and then go at 80 or 90 percent of whatever maximum you can.

Get your heart rate really high and then stop. If you do those things, you're kind of checking off the major boxes. And people start thinking, well, there's another list. Ah, but if you just understand what you're trying to do in each one of those circumstances. Well, it doesn't matter if you're in a hotel room or you're an airport even,

or you have access to the best gyms in the world, you can do these things with body weight, with weights. I'm arriving at this place where I both have the catalog of information in my mind from having thought about this stuff so much and read about it so much. But I'm also arriving at this clarity based on the feedback I've heard from people,

kind of taking like a pulse check, not just from my audience, but what feels like the larger landscape out there, that people want more peace and ease. And yet only they can take responsibility for their health. So how do we put people into a place where they really feel like they can accomplish things without

spending a ton of money and spending a ton of time? That's really what I'm trying to do. What I'm learning, or gaining from you is that there's a lot of science to back up very simple things that we can do at opportunity moments in the day. Right.

And it's almost like if you could map out your day and know when you're feeling certain ways and I think all of us know that. I call of us know, God, when I hit 3 pm, that's when I feel my worst. Okay, well let me have a little reminder on my phone. They gets me to take 10 breaths.

I know that when I wake up in the morning, I need a bit of sunlight or whatever it may be and I'm not doing enough of that. Or maybe let me keep a bottle of water next to me. So when I wake up in the morning, I can spike my cortisol. So I feel like we've got to get intentional about mapping our days.

According to the patent experiences and the condition experiences that we're having. That's right. So that we can lock into this new framework that you're offering us because otherwise you get to that same place every day and you reach for the candy bar or you reach for the sugary drink or reach for the caffeine

“because that's what you've conditioned yourself to do.”

One thing we are all, I don't want to say enslaved because it's actually a gift is the circadian rhythm. I mean, I cannot emphasize this enough. Yes, they're night owls and bless them. Yes, they're morning people who want to wake up at 4 or 5 a.m. Most people are somewhere in between, just statistically.

But no one escapes the demands of circadian rhythm. Your cognition is going to be better at certain points in the 24 hour cycle. Your ability to sleep is better. Your ability to be calm and to listen to be kind to yourself. To filter the world's events in ways that are peaceful and kind to yourself.

But also aware of what's going on in the world. All of that is different at 8 a.m. versus 8 p.m. versus 3 a.m. for everybody.

So the most important things I believe are the things that take our natural rhythm.

There's going to be an elevation in cortisol.

Ideally, tether it to light.

Ideally sunlight. Tether it to movement. I'm a big believer in morning meditation. I'm a big believer in nighttime prayer or meditation or long exhale breathing. It depends on one's orientation towards those things.

But I pray every night before I go to sleep. Why?

“Well, that's something that I really believe in as become a core practice for me.”

What do you pray for, Andrew?

For me as a reality which is that we're an amazing species.

Humans are amazing. Dogs are amazing. All these amazing species. Humans are an amazing species. We can develop all these technologies. We can develop sophisticated language.

But I came to this clarity at 50, which is kind of amazing. It took me this long. But you know, I'm like, you know, I suffer from this like thick skull sometimes. That a lot of the problems we see in the world, a lot of the things that have been challenging for me. They're central to being human.

I'm not giving up on the possibility of world peace. I'm not giving up on the possibility of people really humans evolving to a place where we truly can be better to ourselves and others. But if we look at history and we look at where we are now. In many ways we could say, well, this is just a different version of the same thing over and over. And I had to just accept that we're not going to turn into a different species.

And I started really pondering the question of whether the answers to all the things that I wish for the world and for myself would come from nonhuman sources.

“And I believe in God. I've always believed in God.”

And I decided to really lean into a prayer practice. So I started praying every night every night. I have not missed a night. If I fall asleep, you know, downstairs in the couch or so I get out of bed. And we're off the couch and I pray before I get into bed. And I pray for others. I pray for the people in my life. I pray for the world. I do the what admittedly can be hard work of praying for people that I've had challenges with.

I pray for my relationship to them. In that prayer, I really try and give over my will to make things right internally and externally. To God, to the forces in the universe that are outside my control and that I don't think any, any humans can really solve. And I pray before I came in here, pray before every podcast. I'm a man of science. I believe in science. I believe in the scientific method. I believe in evolutionary biology. I do.

But I also believe that there is a God and that there is an aspect of the energy of humans. That if we open up to that, can allow us to be the best version of our species. And I realize religion is a complicated one because it has been in continuous ways that humans divide and harm one another as well as embrace and help one another.

“But I think that I'm in this body to try and learn and spread knowledge for health and for well-being.”

But I don't think that I can do the best job at that unless I turn some of it over to God. And I'll tell you what brought me to this realization, which was I understand the biology of cognition, volition, addiction, sleep, autonomic nervous system. I mean, I teach and learn this stuff. I ran a lab for many years. And there's this bizarre thing that happens when people are struggling to change their thoughts or behavior in some way. And despite all the knowledge in the world, all the support in the world, they can't do it.

And then you observe that if they give that process over to, sometimes they call it higher power, like in 12 step, or sometimes they'll just give it over to God or they'll take their hands off the throttle and the steering wheel. They are somehow able to accomplish that thing. Now it makes no sense. It actually goes completely counter-current with everything we understand about the prefrontal cortex and control of impulsive behavior.

And I've never seen it fail in myself or in others.

And recently I was up at Stanford because I split my time between Southern and Northern California and the Veritas Group, which is an on-campus that happened to be a Christian group, asked me to come talk about satisfaction and what leads to real life satisfaction. I mean, it's not denominational, but that's where Veritas got started. And it was so interesting because here I am on my still attending professor at Stanford. And my home court, I'm there talking about God. I'm not educated in this realm.

And I'm talking to, you know, I start off by saying, I'm certain this room is filled with people that are far more knowledgeable about the Bible and God than I am. But all I can tell you is that a prayer practice is fundamentally changed my ability to think, to feel peaceful, to make better decisions, to see aspects of the world, that are beautiful, that clearly were there before that I was missing, to look at fellow humans with more appreciation, and I like to think kindness and forgiveness.

And yet I still believe in all of that as well.

“I mean, in two words, it works. How it works is still mysterious. And I think nonetheless, I think it's an extremely powerful thing to live in the question of faith or maybe even in faith.”

And two years ago, I couldn't say this, even though I was doing it, I was too scared. I thought, oh, no one will take me seriously as a scientist anymore. Listen, if someone wants to sit down and we have a four hour conversation about everything from, you know, molecular level up to circuit level and psychology. Like, like, I can do that. I'm by no means an expert in all those areas, but I've been surrounded by them. My friends who are neurosurgeons, especially the physicians that I know who are exceptional, who work on the brain, they'll tell you there's got to be something else.

Beyond just the textbook understanding of the brain, they're has to be. So how do you know when they say, well, because they've got their hands in people's brains seeing and working with the chemicals and the meat of it, but they've just seen some astonishing things. They've seen certainly tragedy in some cases, but what they describe as miracles. So as a curious person who loves knowledge, I just kept hearing the the whisper and then it was a tap and then it was a little bit of a shove like, like, let's do this. Let's explore it.

But when I say let's do this, I mean, I'm exploring. I'm like, anyone else, there are nights and days where I go, maybe this is all in my head, maybe I'm, and I, and I say, okay, well, I'm just going to keep doing it. The same way one would continue with an academic program that was difficult to get to the end, the same way that one would continue with a fitness program, except on on days when it's difficult. Yeah, so forgive me for taking that tangent, but that's not more to the end of my day. I mean, yes, and I dim the lights in the evening and I try not to, you know, hydrate too much trying to drink caffeine too late in the day, even though I love an afternoon coffee.

I'm half Argentine, we love our afternoon coffee. I try not get aggravated by things I see in the world late in the day. I, I really try and bring the low cortisol themes to my home.

“My partner and I she, you know, she's really good about like like bring in the tone down and and all of that and I try it. I follow suit. This prayer practice before sleep has my, my dreams, my life is so much more peaceful.”

It just feels remiss if I didn't talk about it. There's still as people could probably detect a little awkwardness because I'm not, you know, I'm not running around coding Bible passages. I'm not certain about anything except that there's something there and the fact that prayer has fundamentally transformed my life for the better. To me, listening to you say that highlights the challenge that we all have as humans again, which is that battle of the binary and that either role. So it's like it's either God or it's science or it's spirituality or it's science and I almost feel like that's where all of our problems come from all of our human problems almost.

The origin is because we believe they can only be one or the other.

I completely agree. I'm chuckling because there's this really wonderful paper that was published in neuron, which is a separate sterile. It's a really fine journal that basically shows that there's a.

Really strong dopamine release and reinforcement a reward for validating one's own beliefs explains a lot about the world and it's very easy to get cynical when the one sees that sort of result.

“In fact, I think a lot of the world can be explained especially online by people believing things in order to feel some way that satisfying to them.”

And oddly, to not feel good, you know, I don't think most people are going online, so I want to feel good and so I'm going to go online. I think we're compelled to go there and wonderful things happen online including podcasts and new incidents. The news is wonderful and we need to stay informed. But there seems to be this aspect to the human brain that actually science backs up in the 1960s and 70s a guy named Robert Heath, the controversial scientists for unrelated reasons to his expertise. But he did these experiments as a neurosurgeon that were very informative and important on the less, which was he allowed people to press buttons, which would stimulate different areas of the brain.

Some areas made them feel giddy, other areas drunk, other areas they would feel aroused, other areas they feel hungry, other areas they'd feel unsated. The number one area that people preferred to leverage for weren't saying this is going to discourage some people was the central media nucleus of the thalamus, midline thalamus, that made them feel mild frustration and anger. People feel reinforcement from that arousal, which is not the same thing as liking it. I don't think anyone likes to feel frustrated or likes to feel angry.

But one of the most important things about neuroscience that people should know about their brains is that reinforcement is a more useful term than reward.

This is a tough thing to accept about our species. It's a really tough one because if you give any other sort of animal, a mouse or a dog, the opportunity to stimulate their brain, this is not what they do. They go for pleasure. Humans, for whatever reason, and perhaps it's the fact that we need to lean up against the edges of nature and feel the pain of cold, feel the pain of famine and our species is uniquely gifted to develop technologies to overcome those.

Maybe we need to feel this frustration. It's reinforced and then we go build tools to overcome cold to overcome hunger and so on.

People like to feel activated even if the activation feels lousy. Yes. We have to understand this. We have to acknowledge this because once you do, you realize, let's take it back to the morning routine. I can wake up some days and to borrow a phrase from Andy Stomph, a remarkable person, his own writer, former 21 operators, very impressive person, he says, you know, sometimes you wake up and there's a revolution in your mind.

“You don't want to do this. You don't want to do that. It all seems overwhelming. You're tired and what do you do with that?”

It's so easy to slide down into the trench of frustration and anger and like, oh, I do this or laser it, and some days we need to do that, but most days we need to get up, get our sunlight to our meditation trick. We have to fight this midline, flammic nucleus is like trying it, and how do we fight it without negative arousal? Most people know how to fight back. They know how to fight for their kids. They know how to fight for their political party. But how do you advocate for yourself? How do you generate positive arousal? The word arousal is a little tricky too, because people immediately default to romantic sexual arousal.

But arousal is just our tendency to feel up alive and up. How do we access that knowing that there's this strong bias towards going into darker places?

“I think the key, I mean, you know far more about this than I do Jay, I think the key lies in that early meditation, in gratitude, in realizing that as beautiful as our brains and our species are a little crazy, right?”

We all have this strong bias toward feeling frustration and wanting this reinforced arousal that isn't good for us or for the world. And if we just get acknowledged that, and the fact that dogs and cats, at least days I've accepted cats into my life too, you know? I don't know what they experienced, but something tells me, because they lacked the sophistication to develop tools and think about the future and organize around it in ways similar to us. I think they just default to less friction. I think the friction was an important lever in our evolutionary trajectory.

If there's going to be a big inflection in, quote unquote, collective consciousness, it's going to come from acknowledging, we're in amazing species. We are also a flawed species.

Let's even forget the notions of flawed in the religious context although it might have relevance here. We're flawed. Our brain wiring ain't great for us and others sometimes, but if we know it, we're above it. We can make better decisions. If we can make better decisions, then I do think our species can get to a place where we just kind of laugh about how insane our mental working is art so that we can lean into their positive aspects. I really think this is possible, but it requires that stillness that only comes through self-awareness, which only comes through the breath from being still.

I mean, you've been doing that for a long time. You've talked about it. I think for the longest time, I thought, great. Meditation is a way to lower cortisol. Sleep better at night. Increase one's heart rate variability and not be as reactive. Cool, cool, cool. Maybe even access new realms of consciousness if I do it long enough and I do it like in big sur or something. I think the deeper piece here is the acknowledgement that comes from, I need this. This should be a requirement for our species.

But another feature of our species, we don't like to be told what to do. That's the way to get somebody to never do a health practice and tell them they have to do it.

The one of the beautiful aspects of humans is we like to fight for our independence over our mind. Nobody wants to be controlled. That's a great thing. So I don't know. I think about this stuff a lot. But I don't let myself go into a revolution in my mind in the morning because at 50, I can tell you I've spent too many mornings there, too many nights there.

“And I think it's important to grieve when one needs to grieve. I think it's important to be angry when one needs to feel angry. But I put all that on top of a really deep acceptance that our brain has this feature.”

It feels like a flaw, but I think it's just a feature.

But actually we need to meditate so that we don't disturb anyone else. And when you realize that meditation was there to access more grace, more compassion.

It was tuning into the reservoir of that so that we could be streams and rivers and tributaries of that compassion.

“And all of a sudden you realize it's not all on you. I think that's partly why prayers so powerful is because it's an acceptance that I'm fallible and I can't hold this all myself, couldn't possibly.”

And that there's something greater than me that's holding me and holding everything else. And actually that vastness may have the capacity to understand everyone and to hear everyone and to make people feel seen and understood because if it's left to me in my five senses, I'll probably fail. And so I think that piece is really beautiful and I can agree with you more that it is simply having access to a well or a reservoir in the moment that you need it, right? You can have a glass of water in front of you.

But if you don't know where it's going to be filled from tomorrow, then the anxiety comes in, the stress comes in, the pain comes in because you think I only have one glass of water, which is I think our human experience on so many levels. It's the scarcity, it's the lack of access to enough understanding how much more compassion do I need to have. How much more can I try and not be anxious, you know, how much more do I have? And we don't, we don't have. And therefore I think prayers are beautiful access to that, but I guess what you're saying is a lot of what you're talking about, even though it does give us protocols for health and wellbeing.

It's actually giving us stability for interacting and exchanging and connecting with people better as well. That's right. I mean, the pursuit of mental and physical health through quote unquote protocols is not a closed loop. It's so that you can be more present for your family members for the world and so that you can be more present to nature so that you can see new possibilities and new ideas.

“Look, I feel over the moon honored and delighted that the last five, six years has been this conversation about health and wellness in a way that even though I've been interested in it for a long time, I've never observed in the world before.”

I've been fortunate to play some small part in that and huge part. Thank you. I mean, to the ability to take what I learned and share it is just seems to be hardwired into me. I think that's why I'm here. I enjoy it so much and I feel very gratified that people benefit and it's an honor and a privilege. I think that the field of health and wellness for lack of a better term is in a bit of self-reflection mode right now, like how much optimization do we need? We all need to be doing red and light therapy, taking a million supplements and no, no, no, no, you can, you don't have to.

I really move the needle are going to be the things we talked about, you know, meditations, brief or long long Excel breathing when you're stressed hydration and exercise and you know in the book, I have an entire chapter. It's basically seven books in one. It sounds like you. If nothing else, it'll cure insomnia or it could serve as a door stop. It could be read linearly front to back or you could just focus on individual chapters or jump around. It's designed for that. It's meant to be a resource and a look up God is as a little bit of a text bookish feel, but there's story. I like to think it's very readable. I do give my backstory and what the motivation for going into all this was and isn't in the introduction, but each chapter, you know, sleep exercise stress management.

“Nutrition, light, not just sunlight, but things like red light, et cetera, light. It's an impact on the body, I mean, incredible literature that is the beautiful work of others, not mind, you know, neuroplasticity and personal development.”

Each one is designed to say, okay, here are the protocols that I am certain are most powerful starting with the most powerful as the first protocol in each chapter, as well as the science that supports them. Each one of those is meant to give people tools, but the final chapter on personal development for me was the most important in terms of framing the human brain and mind and all the stuff because you alluded to this at the beginning of our discussion today, but I had a conversation with James Hollis.

The psychologist, he's probably about 86 years old now. He wrote some incredible books that I was aware of years ago, one is called "Under Saturn Shadow" on Healing and Trauma.

He's very early in that discussion. He's been around working hard in there for a while. He wrote "The Eden Project", which is the psychology of relationships, brilliant, brilliant man. Years ago, I saw a video of him on YouTube called "Creating a Life", an audio is terrible, and I was like, "I got to get this guy in the podcast". So I said, like, what's the key to a really good life? And he said, "Four things", and I talk about this in the book, but it's all Hollis.

And then the fourth one is to, once a day, get out of stimulus and response, drop into a different mode and really stay in touch with what's true for you, what's closest to your heart. If you're sounded more like the Hollis, I was expecting. The shut up piece is actually about gratitude. He talks about this every day. He literally has his clients write this down, "Shut up, shoot up, show up". There's always somebody suffering more than you. That's his belief, and I totally agree. So we have to work to be grateful. It's not a reflex for most people. Do a gratitude practice. Do it.

Shoot up, prepare. The prepare piece is really about making sure that when you show up for the roles in your life, relational, vocational, etc. That you're positioning yourself to win as best you can. And there's a process I talk about that's neuroscience related in the book of how to do that.

“And then the last one is show up. Here's the sky who's all about the mind and the heart and all this stuff. And he's telling me he said, "You know, one of the most fundamental things to having a good life is to fulfill outward roles".”

And it's naive to think that we just need to be in touch with our heart's desires. We have to fulfill outward roles, especially if we don't like those roles and we want to leave them because that positions us to leave them if we need to.

So the first three were kind of like, very, you know, still turn from the kids like boomer, boomer advice, you know, like shut up, shoot up, show up.

But the way he catches and what the real meaning behind it is just beautiful. And then the getting out of stimulus response is something that we've heard about for years, Victor Franklin, people, meditators, thousands of years, you know, getting out of this planning and doing thing. And I said, "But that's a tough one, right? Cause how do I touch into my deepest heart's desires?" Or just sit there and go, "Okay, what's my heart really want?"

“Maybe. But what he said is the most important thing is that you have to get out of role fulfillment. You have to get out of the mode of trying to please notions of yourself to please other people for a short while.”

Could be five minutes and let your mind idle because that's where your unconscious will spontaneously just toss things up to your conscious mind to receive. Some people get them in dreams. Some people will sit there and realize, "Push, I was just frustrated. I actually don't want to leave my job. I actually don't want to leave my spouse. I'm just exhausted." The truth comes out. Sometimes it will be, "Oh my gosh, I'm in the wrong life. This is not my life."

Okay, I'll check into tomorrow to make sure that's still true before I do anything about that. That seesaw of checking in on all these things is so critical.

And frankly, the book was also written to myself. It was the book I wish I had in my 20s.

“I hopped on the science track because I, out of desperation, we've talked about this on previous podcast. My life was not going well as I exited high school.”

My life was looking really bad. And I had a lot of reasons to be angry. I had frustration. And I was like, "No one's coming to save me. Roll fulfillment. Do the thing, at least for me that I knew if I just kept doing it." At some point I'd get something at, and in that case it was a degree. I would just build knowledge on knowledge. I eventually fell in love with that learning. But even if I hadn't, I would have kept going. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision making, and that extends to the practical stuff too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life.

State Farm is there to meet you where you are, and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. What is your ability? Very by state. What's so awesome about James Hollis' stance is that it acknowledges both. We hear we need to be in touch with ourselves what we really want. We also need to fulfill roles in society and our families to ourselves and to others.

But the fulfilling roles for others piece has never failed. Across societies, across cultures, across thousands of years.

This is the thing that gives us confidence, that if we need to pivot, work or whatever, that we can be successful in the next thing. Our ability to control our own mind, to work against the revolution that is our brain, and get things done is critical to this thing that we call confidence. The rudder should be within us. I'm steering in a direction that I want to go on average because sometimes we don't want to do it. But that for me was, it was like, I get to wait until I was almost 50 years old and sit down with Hollis to really see that.

You know, there is no textbook in neuroscience that covers this. There textbooks in neuroscience, wonderful ones, in fact, that cover everything from brain development to plasticity to diseases of the brain, I teach from these books, right?

“And you won't find a section or a chapter on thought. You find them on memories on consciousness, but look, what's a thought?”

And I had a conversation on my podcast with a neuroscientist from Duke, her name is Jenny Gro, and she studies how the brain represents visual space. But she also explained to me for the first time how thoughts actually work, and I'm a neuroscientist, and I couldn't figure it out.

And she said, well, basically, our species was gifted, many, many more brain areas to represent the different senses, but not just one area for touch, but many, many.

Many more than any of the other old world primates out there. And when we have a thought, so, like, let's say, we see something online or this table, for instance. So, if we look at this table, the moment we look at something and concentrate on it, or we hear something and concentrate on it, it's almost like the magic library in the Harry Potter play.

Where the books around it start to change. You take out a book on one thing and all the books around it start to become tangentially related to that thing. So, if we look at this table, it's glass.

So, my area of my brain that represents glass also is thinking smooth, and it's thinking elegant, and then it's thinking round. And so, the brain starts moving into what we call a dynamic attractor state. It's like there was a ball bearing, which is our thoughts on a flat surface, and the moment we see that thought, or it seeded for us, like, uh, politics war. Dog, child, smile. Whatever it is, it has the potential to seed those thoughts. These brain areas, everything that represents smell, touch, hearing.

They all start offering up related themes. And so, what Jenny explained was, where are the species that can create? All these tangential and very elaborate representations of neuroscience, just called them a seed stimuli, but something. Now, I could have picked painting. I could have picked, in fact, you always are immaculately dressed. I don't know, maybe you have some magic thing that protects you from wind, but I could pick anything. And the brain will start to lay her in sensory representations. What do I mean by that? I said smooth. Now, other smooth things come to mind. This is the way that the brain works when it comes to thinking. And we need to be very, very careful. What sorts of thoughts?

We always say, like, the we feed, but let's think about it in a positive stance. I can take something I love, focus on it. And other things I love will start to enter the picture. Now, some people say, oh, this is kind of veering towards law, but traction, whatever, people can call it whatever they want at this point. It's human brain starts to lay her in sensory representations of things around that, from my past, from the present, what could be in the future.

“And as she explained this, I thought, like goodness, the real work of life is to stay present, but to also be a selective filter about which thoughts we, I don't want to say feed, but seed.”

This is so important, and how do we do this again by getting to the recognition that our brain can be pulled in different directions. We're not always in control.

Then if we go far enough down a particular thought route or emotional state, that ball bearing starts to drop into a trench and it's very hard to get out. So the revolution of the mind that sometimes starts for singing the morning for me or late at night or after bouts of stress or when it's just been so much. The revolution of the mind can only be overcome by acknowledging, ah, like the librarian in right now is filled with this stuff. I need to go to another room in the library.

“There's no way out of here by just continuing to think about these problems. How do you turn off thinking? So this is the super skill I think of humans that we need to develop.”

I do not have a protocol in my book for how to turn off thoughts because it doesn't work. What we can do is get back into sensation, back to breath. All the stuff that used to sound kind of loose in the neuroscience world, there are tons of randomized controlled trials and, you know, library of Congress, PubMed IDs for this stuff now. This stuff is no longer wishywash. It's really about the liability of our brain, but also our ability to steer it in the right direction. The words you use there feel very analogous to the eastern perspective of how the mind and consciousness work. So you give the example of you saying the mind feeling pulled, well, like the brain feeling pulled.

And so the metaphor that's created in the eastern landscape is that the mind is on a chariot and there are five horses and the five horses are the five senses beautiful.

And the mind is like trying to hold on to the reins, but doesn't have a clue what's going on. And then what's happened is that as the horses are trying to run, the only thing that can help the mind is the God.

There's a God, which is the intelligence and the intelligence is the discernment between what the horses want to do.

And what the conditioned consciousness experiences. So for example, if a horse is running toward alcohol, because it's always had access to alcohol, the conditioned consciousness goes, oh, yeah, we like alcohol, we had a great time last time. And the God totally moved out the way and then we go and follow that. The eastern perspective is the senses are going to do what they're going to do unless they're controlled unless they're trained.

“If it isn't trained, it's going to go wild and go crazy. So is your mind the wild horse or is it trained horse? The second is, is your intelligence trained?”

So that if your sense gets out of control, does the mind of the ability to check with the God and the intelligence and the intelligence can go, no, we know that when we go out late and night, we get a bit too drunk and it's not too great tomorrow. We know that when we kind of push it at work too much, we burn ourselves out and we get exhausted, but that intelligence needs to be strengthened. And again, that's through the thoughts that you allow in. What are the thoughts that you're filling your intelligence up with? So you've got these two checking points.

This is from the eastern perspective of understanding the mind and the consciousness, but the hard part for us is we're exhausted, so the intelligence is weakened. And then we're stressed out, so the mind doesn't really have the ability to reign in any of these horses, so our thoughts go wild and crazy.

“And I think that's the crux of it that I think we're just so tired today.”

Look, I have great reverence for the field of neuroscience. It's amazing.

What neuroscientists have figured out, even in the last 25 years, I've been so blessed to be a part of neuroscience at the time where all these tools just. So much still to figure out, but just incredible understanding that we didn't have 10, 20 years ago, certainly 40 years ago, but thematically. Many of the things that one can conclude from the best neuroscience has been demonstrated and was documented in the east a long time ago, just different language. More time perhaps spent observing and putting into practices, and the two have really started to merge.

Yeah, I feel that way. They really have, and really this is a moment to put in a real strong plug for federally funded research.

It is hard to explain to people just how much incredible science and gifts of medicine have been discovered because of that support that doesn't happen elsewhere in the world.

Yes, in the UK, yes, in other places in Europe, but my father came from South America to the United States to become a scientist because there's no funding for research there. But the point being that about 25 years ago, someone I don't know who at the National Institutes of Health made the very, very good decision to start funding grants on meditation. Which, let's face it for scientists who want to understand curious Dallas, Hymer's and Parkins in the South. There's a finite amount of money, so a sound a bit squishy, like are we really going to fund this stuff? But at the time, meditation was really considered counter culture and woo and all of that.

And what we know for certain is that these practices of Excel emphasize breathing, closing with eyes, getting out of stimulus and response, it fundamentally helps people at the level of sleep, reduce stress, helps kids with ADHD, helps people who are dealing with trauma. I mean, and on and on, I'm telling you what you already know, and now most people say, "Yeah, okay, we know. We should meditate." But there was no quote unquote Western science substantiation for that until mainly NIH came in and did what I believe was really good work of putting federal tax dollars to that.

“And now we're there, and I think there's more to discover, but it's just a reminder that Western science and eastern practices are not always in conflict. In fact, they're often in collaboration before they even realize it.”

And now they really merge. So that's a really, that's a success story. If I want to take a moment to tip my hat to Richie Davidson and colleagues at University of Wisconsin who wrote altered traits, which was one of the first books based on mostly on the work in his laboratory about mindfulness and putting people into FMRIs and really understanding that studying well trained yogis was important, but also college students meditating for the first time and really important work that broke through. They needed to be a scientist like him to kind of break through and now it's common knowledge, but they had it right based on everything you're telling me.

Maybe that's the first thing to acknowledge each day. Wake up. Thank God for being alive another day. That's Holasis shut up. He's not saying shut up. He's saying be grateful. You know, you're breathing. You're awake.

Some people need coffee first. Gotcha. Need some sunlight first, et cetera. But you know, two, three in the morning is a hard time to fight one someone morning. But for sitting in the morning you stand a fighting chance. Yes. Sleep quite as much. Do yoga need draw. You'll recover some of that sleep that vigor and maybe the first fight is with ourselves, right? And maybe if I may and now definitely editorializing, but maybe that's what God wants. Maybe that's our first test like hey, like can you just acknowledge that like you're you're not on the best footing just by being.

Human, climb up the ladder, get a foothold on yourself and then you stand a fighting chance. And even my language now is like fighting and foothold. I mean, there's got to be a more peaceful, peaceful way into this, but at least for me, at least where I stand now the peace and ease doesn't come to the end of the day. But I work on it when I when I feel like I'm getting pulled, I sometimes will just pray. I say, God, I, I, I, this feels too hard. I know I can do it, but can you help me out here? And there's something about those little prayers that sound perhaps silly to some, but for those that do them, you go like, and somehow.

All of a sudden, gets a little easier. Again, runs totally countercrunk to everything we understand about top-down inhibition and all this stuff that is definitely true for other circumstances, but we let go a little bit and somehow the path kind of opens to us.

“We don't really have science to understand this. It can be very hard to study in a laboratory, but someday people will figure it out. You just start moving in that direction. And I think.”

Then you know, you've got your horses, they're fed. Now it's time to exercise them. Water them and get them sunlight, the animals do a lot of things intuitively.

People always say, does the morning sunlight thing, is it also true for animals? Every species has these cortisol mechanisms, these melatonin mechanisms, every mammalian species, and needs to supply the same things. Sunlight, hydration, movement in the morning, dim, dim light, long exhale, watch a dog before it goes down to sleep, it'll do. It does the physiological side, because it's a hard-wired circuit. There's a brain center specifically for that. We do that too. Heart rate slows down, we have more ease getting into sleep.

“So, I think acknowledging our instinctual side is critical and acknowledging that that instinctual side is like not always best for us and best for the world.”

Yeah. And when we say that like acknowledge our instinctual side, people will say, oh, so you're really saying like we should acknowledge that we have rage in us, that we have envy in us, that we have jealousy in us. Yes, yes, and yes, of course.

Not trying to sound biblical here, but yes, yes, and yes, anyone that doesn't have those aspects to their psyche doesn't have a hypothalamus.

That's all rooted in these deep brain structures that because we have this other thing called a cortex, it can exert top down inhibition. You know, the two marshmallow tests that everyone loves to discuss and then it was sort of quote unquote debunked. Yeah, but then I just had someone on my podcast recently, which showed me that the debunk got debunk. So it turns out this is like eventually all the kids took the marshmallow, the question was who waited the longest.

Got it. Yeah, I'm very interesting, but there's a lot more plasticity to it.

And then we were told that it's not like it, you're faded to be the impulsive one or the none but you can learn to set up new incentives. I'm going to wait because gosh, if we nice to have the two or I'm going to wait because someone else is going to benefit from it. I mean, that's the beauty of being human, we can place new rules, meaning and strategies and meaning on those same basic instincts that are there in all of us. I'm both in deep acceptance of our instinctual side, but as a way to try and get past it, this theme has been missing from the health and wellness and neuroscience and psychology conversations because the way we're trained as scientists and even in the health sphere.

You're not like this and I'm like, not like there's been general people have to kind of pick a theme totally. I'm the red light guy or I'm the morning sunlight guy. I've been accused of that and I'll take that. Or the meditation lab, you know, when you're a scientist running a laboratory, you can't afford to work on a bunch of things. So people typically, if we hear from them, they're talking about one area.

“But really, the themes are circadian rhythms, alertness and sleep. That's frankly half of wellness. Yeah, right now. Stress management, nutrition and exercise, learning these are the fundamentals, right?”

I mean, if we say, oh, yeah, we all do want the chocolate cake. Cool. That's just a hard-wired thing.

And so I think a big issue that everyone should ask themselves is, you know, how much do I want to fight my instinctual nature? How much am I willing to do it? Well, when it comes to being kind to oneself, yeah, and to others, yeah, I think most of the suffering in the world is our desire to control our mind to control the mind and behavior of other people. It's a feature slash flaw of our species.

It comes with being a primate. Like if you watch chimpanzee, I don't know if you watch that series on Netflix, it's incredible.

But it will make you pause and while these these old world primates, these large primates, they lie, they cheat, they steal. They also love and care and protect. But they lie, they cheat, they steal and love and protect and bond. It does seem to be a feature of primates with large brains that they have the opportunity to do harm and good. Which is not to say that all wolf packs are just benevolent. Yeah, but I've looked at the brains of a lot of different species. Something I'm bittersweet about, but comparative neurology is something I spend a lot of time doing.

I don't only say on with a number of different species, turns out humans is the place I'm comfortable working because they can consent.

I'm not against animal research, but I've come to the place where it was knowing at my soul for a long time, which is why I decided to get into public education. What did you learn? Till recently I taught neuro anatomy, I mean, much of what we know about neuro anatomy comes from human brains, but also other animals brains. I mean, it's hard to not be somewhat of a species. Like if you're trying to discover a cure for Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, probably going to have to work on mouse brains, which means you're going to have to kill mice.

And you try and do it as pain free and humanly as you can. Non-human primate work is something that is very, very hard on the soul. I can tell you that having done it and decided this is not for me.

“This is the one fortunate consequence of less funding for research, is that what I believe to be non-essential, non-human primate work is no longer being funded.”

There's still some primate work that's being funded, and I'm not in position to say whether or not it's worthwhile or not, because I'd have to look application by application. But they're on this planet with us. We owe them respect, they're sentient, you know, dogs, cats, fortunately very, very little research is certainly in the US. I don't think you're going to find that much anymore. It probably still exists, but that was a very difficult part of becoming a neuroscientist. I really grappled with that one, and was happy to stop.

It did. And I have to be careful because, you know, you've got people who will harm other people who work on animals, and I've known some of those folks, and that's bad too, right? You know, it can get extreme, and sometimes animal models are the only way to go, but yeah, that one was rough. It's not something I've talked about before, because, in a way, I'd be a hypocrite, because, if anyone looks up my papers, many of them were on ferrets, which are carnivore, people say, "Oh, ferrets are smart animals."

“They've probably largest brain volume to body size, which is a simple way of saying they're very smart. They have bumpy brains. They got a lot of brain in there. I think they have a sense of humor.”

They certainly feel pain. They might have a smooth brain, but they feel pain. They form social bonds. People study social bonds in these animals. So, I'm not saying all that work should be stopped. I'm saying that for me personally, I got to the point where I was at enough. I just can't do this. And I knew something was happening for me. I was pursuing meaningful questions that relate to human health, but at some point, I had to have a really honest conversation with myself, which was, "Is this eroding my soul?" And I just couldn't, you know, having a dog, I'd talk about dogs, as people can probably tell.

And I think their lack of a prefrontal cortex is what makes them so awesome. Sorry. They have a prefrontal cortex, but it's small. Believe me. I've seen them. Small in volume. The prefrontal cortex is an area of brain, just beyond your forehead, which allows you to set context and strategy setting, suppress impulses.

“You're saying your dogs don't really love you, they just don't know. No, they, I think they only love you. I think they only love you. This is the part of the brain that's strategic, that can lead to deception.”

And somebody will say, "Well, my dog lies." Okay. They have a little bit of prefrontal cortex, but the human and other old world primates were the ones with a really built-out prefrontal cortex that can imagine technologies and then implement them.

Good and bad. I think dogs are amazing because they have just enough prefrontal cortex to allow them to think and plan and recognize.

And they have, to my understanding and experience, zero diabolical nature to them. They're a UN, I win, I won everyone to win, species. And I'm not trying to condemn any of my colleagues that do this kind of work.

You know, he's taking people who are in lock, who are locked in in paralysis, and he's gotten them to speak for the first time in 10 years by understanding neural mechanisms and the brain translating it through, I mean, he's also a bioengineer and he's using AI and he has this patient.

“He's talking about it, he was discussed in the in the times in elsewhere, who said hello for the first time through a computer in 10 years and now speaks with his family members.”

And there is other patients that are doing the same like he's a healer, right? So the work in animals in form stuff in humans, but I feel like there's a lot that needs to be implemented in humans.

And I don't think AI is going to solve all of it, but AI is going to be a magnificent, it is already a magnificent tool for better understanding brains and biology. But I know there's a lot of AI fear right now, and I understand why people feel that way, but the ability to really understand what brains are doing in humans. Everything that he did in those experiments is through machine learning, plus neurosurgery, but he's like an astronaut of the brain, he does all those things. But in the next three or four years, we're going to see people, okay, there's going to be low level technologies that are going to be very useful.

Recently, and I don't have any relationship to them, I tried an eye mask that causes eye movements that put you to sleep. I want an eye mask that helps me fall asleep, and that measures my rapid eye movements and increase my rapid eye movement sleep, it improves learning, emotional, unloading, you know, heaviness of emotional experience. All that's going to happen through AI understanding your eye movements and then, you know, subtly controlling them non-invasively, low electrical stimulus behind the ear while you sleep, improving your sleep.

Likewise, for focus and cognition, for vagal nerve stimulation, non-invasively, this is all going to happen in AI is going to be a critical piece of this.

But also for deciphering your health data, telling you what you actually should eat, which supplements you actually need, and then watching your blood work move in the right directions. And, you know, we think about this in the context of just general health, but you know, I have a friend with MS, he's especially interested in that. Because you're not going to find any literature about what to take if you're taking MS, it's all through these patient groups and they're talking to one another AI can really assist taking those all that information and for free, basically giving back the best practices.

And then at the level of neurosurgery, but also brain machine interface, I do think that Parkinson's Alzheimer's severe ADHD OCD, eating disorders like inorexia, the most deadly psychiatric illness. People don't realize us, but many, many people with real interest, you die. And they know that they should eat, and their brain has a wiring issue.

“And I do think that brain machine interface and AI is going to cure all of the things I mentioned. I think that is going to happen.”

Really? I do. I absolutely do. I mean, the challenges, how to stimulate or suppress certain areas of the brain, non-invasively or with a minimum of invader, but that can be done through ultrasound through the skull that may soon come a time where you could get enough precision with, you know, a device that you would remain just a hat, eventually. But it's coming, like ways so you don't have to breach the skull and drop wires into the skull. But the real challenge for so many years has been what areas to stimulate.

Now that's where the animal research was very critical, which areas to suppress the activity of. You can't just shut down your prefrontal cortex because then we know what that looks like from people with prefrontal damage, it's not good. They don't have impulse control and cognition sufferers. And so we've got a lot of information based on the many years of truly important non-human work. It's interesting what you said earlier about. You were saying that I wanted to be more easeful and not the fight.

What I always valued about the eastern texts is that they talk about relishing the battle.

So it's not that it's going to be easier that it's just all hard. It's that you find the way to relish the battle in the morning.

“And the best way I can think about is that when you're playing sport competitively, you want to win and you're fighting, but it's so much fun.”

That element of play is so critical. I had a discussion recently with Edo Portal. He's a movement guy. He started, you know, back on martial arts and dance and all these things. We were talking about will and discipline and he said, you know, it's so important to use willpower. But just enough to allow you to move into whatever it is you're trying to do and then really trying to bring elements of ease and play into it. You know, because that worked on stress for a long time in my lab and stress control is a big thing.

And you know, but that we have neural energy, right, our neurons, our nervous system, which controls our muscles and everything else. Our movements, our thoughts is electrochemical, right, neurons release chemicals, which is electrical firing. Other neurons and all that's the nervous system. I'm fascinated by this idea that we're born with obviously a finite number of days. We don't generally know how long we're going to be around. And we have an energy in us and then energy as we've been talking about can be directed in certain actions certain thought patterns.

This is like the Jayshedi mastery that like I'm seeking is like, is there a way to require less energy to direct my energy?

“I think this is like I didn't realize till I said now, we're like, I think that's a great question.”

People are drawn to you, you know, and I'm drawn to not only being your friend, but it being in these conversations with you. Because seems like you've figured out something about how to not over-invest energy into directing one's energy. You know, I'm fascinated by certain aspects of popular culture, certain don't intrigue me at all. But what I'm interested in are the themes that seem to show up again and again again across generations. You know, they're like the 27 Club, all these people who die in that 27 around 27 who seem to have this immense creative.

It's almost like they were faded to take, let's put in units like a million units of energy and just pack it into this early life and they're able to channel it.

They take you these incredible things and then they die. Then there are these people that we, you know, we think about the blue zones and the people that live live a long time or they're like, what are they doing? They're not chillin', but their their energy seems to be on a pretty nice cycle through the days or weeks through the seasons and everyone's like, oh, it's social connection or oh, it's a couple classes of wine or whatever it is. But whatever their energetic regulation seems very, it's clearly sustainable because by definition it's happened a long time, but it's like got a good push and pull to it.

“And then there's the rest of us, right? And I often think like, what is this energy thing? And if we feel a lot of it in us, I think that we should be wise about learning to direct it.”

Maybe if we don't have enough, we should think about how we can generate more of it. I mean, so much of the fighting in the world is people trying to steal each other's energy. They're going to insult somebody, so then they get in their heads, so then that person can't do the work, then they're going to out compete them. And this is the stuff of primates with large parental quarters, sadly.

Now, of course, also humans, we can do amazing things and build societies and benevolence and podcasts and hospitals and art and music.

But if you look at the people with accomplishing credible feats, like really spectacular feats, usually doesn't end well. I saw this documentary recently, The Dark Wizard, about a guy clearly with a bipolar issue, some trauma. I don't want to give it away. He was a free solo climber, Dean Potter. This was before Alex Hanold, and then he got into base jumping and it's amazing for part series.

“Because it was very clear that when he was in his manic episode, he could channel his energy into doing things that were truly dangerous, but he had abilities that other people didn't have.”

Alex is a really special one because he maintains that calm that allows him to channel all his energy into, you know, free soloing, L-capped, just like without the manic energy. But he's really unique in that way. In fact, when he climbed the tower recently, I was like, oh man, like, I kind of wanted him to stop climbing because I just, like, I don't want anything to happen to him. He's a grown man. He's responsible for himself. And what we're dealt in this life is this energy thing, and it's our work to try and figure out how to build it, when we need to build it, steer it, when we need to steer it, not how to turn on ourselves.

I had a close colleague this last year, take his own life, and this was a guy who studied suicideality. Triple board certified neurologist psychiatrist, he had all the information, brutal, and but he was running multiple companies and labs and it was almost like he was just this fireball of energy. And then now looking back, he could almost predict it. I mean, none of us knew that was coming clearly, and we're still all shaken by it. But when people like him, his name was Nolan Williams, and he was in a remarkable human and he has changed for the better that face of psychiatry for many, many years to come.

Took a long protocol for depression and learned to compress it into it. One week thing for people is to do it incredible person serving the world. But when you see that, and you look back, it was like it almost had that. It hate the language around, but it was like, of course it was headed that direction. I feel like this is something that I don't have science to put to.

But it's almost always the case that when someone's real, like on a hockey stick growth of their art or their whatever.

Like sure there's going to be some attacks because they're always trying to like you know the tall poppy syndrome and then there's that media related component. But there's something else there. We don't want people to have too much energy. They're not allowed to go up up up up up up indefinitely. There's something about our primary speed.

Come down and sometimes it's unkind or even abusive. Other times it's, it probably saves people in ancient practices. What is known about energy? Like if you just stop when you're feeling anxious or you alert, you wake up in the morning and meditate.

You know, my friend Rick Ruben tells me, there's a way you can start to circulate that energy. You can start to feel it kind of even out in you.

“This isn't his direct language, but it's kind of what I think he's trying to tell me.”

You know Rick is a dear friend and I just had an amazing conversation. Everyone should listen to that conversation, but he also speaks in riddles sometimes. To be fair and we're very close, but sometimes we're like, you like explaining exactly what you are. But to be able to have that calm, but alert, well-directed energy state is harder for many people, including me to achieve. What is this energy thing through the lens of what you know?

And I ask with sincerity because I neuroscience, I can make up a story about autonomic nervous system. But like, I'd be just throwing out a bunch of words. I don't think we have anything solid to hang our hat on there from neuroscience yet.

But I think it's a critical aspect of being human and I think it's a critical aspect of being a creator.

It's also a critical aspect of dynamically spending and resetting one's energy to manage a family, a business, a mind. What do you know about this? It's such a beautiful question. I'm, you know, in no way, the foremost to throw it either, I'm happy to offer what I've learned from it. It may seem a teacher's regard, I really don't know.

“And I'm asking anyone and everyone that I think has deep understanding of this, which means so far I've asked Rick and I'm asking you.”

And there are other things that come on. No, and I'll share what I've learned from my teachers and my guides who I believe are well-versed in this. So much of it is what you've been saying as well in different ways, but I think when I think of energy, the language that I think we can make sense of it through is fuel. So what are we fueled by? What is it that fuels us?

And I think we know fuel because we think of food for the body, et cetera. So we know what fuel looks like. We know what gas is like for a car. A car without gas is not going anywhere. It doesn't matter how beautiful the car is, how new the tires are, it's not moving.

And so I think humans are like that too.

You could have someone that looks amazing, that is in great shape, that is stunning.

And their parent can be telling them all these things and the kid feels stuck. Right, what is that? Why is it that this talented beautiful being that is being reminded by the people around them and reassured that they're beautiful and talented and gifted? Everything but can't see it within herself. What is that? It's that the energy is stuck. It's that the energy is not flowing. It's that the energy is not moving in and out. And so I think what happens to humans a lot is that we think we have a finite amount of energy.

And we think everyone has finite amounts of energy.

“And then we believe that the only way to get more energy is to take some more of someone else's finite energy.”

Because we've all been raised to believe that there are a limited number of seats in a theater. So that means if someone else bought the tickets I can't have any. And so if someone else has energy then I need to know what they have and I want what they have. And if I can understand what they did or get it from them then maybe I can take some of the energy. So we live in a finite world and I think the finite mindset is why we are so constrained in our energy.

Because we think well I can only ever be this confident. I can only ever be this bold. I can only ever be this interesting because it's all finite. And I think it's only in union with the infinite. And only in connection with the infinite that you start to realize that energy moves through you and you don't have to hold on to it. I think as humans we're good at hoarding when you think about animals you're saying animals are good at hoarding. Like we're good at like keeping stuff and burying it and holding it for a rainy day and it's like energy doesn't work that way.

It works opposite. It's like the more I give to you if I'm giving out of genuine compassion the more I receive from above.

It's not mathematically finite and I think that's the problem is the math that we've studied is will if I have two apples and I give you two apples and I have zero.

And that's what we believe. So if I give you two hours of my time and I feel drained then I feel I only feel drained not realizing that there's so much more to access and coming because I'm offering to give which is why you see the people who changed the world what completely in service. You know when you think about the people that really impacted society they were completely in service where did they get all of that energy from. Where did they get that fuel from it's because they were going to a source far bigger and greater than we were and so to me that's a big part of it and that fuel is a fuel of gratitude and responsibility.

It's gratitude that fuels me you're in the same boat like I think we both could stop doing what we're currently doing and just live comfortably and not care anymore. And it's like but that's not the point like I did do all of this so that I could stop and leave everything behind and be comfortable that wasn't the goal the goal was always service.

This is the part that receives more fuel so I think it's almost like energy gets stuck when someone's not learning from a higher source and when they're not giving to someone newer and so if you think about the perfect mental mentee relationship.

It's that everyone should have a mentor and a mentee but if you don't have a mentor then you're stuck because then you're only giving and not getting anything.

“If you only have a mentor and you don't have a mentee that means you're only getting and not giving anything and I think that's as humans where I think we get stuck like energy gets stuck because we either overgiving or overgetting.”

And I think most of us find ourselves in one of those two spaces rather than this full flow of receiving and giving that just seems to work off itself. I'm positively struck by a lot of it in particular this notion that we fundamentally misunderstand the potential for energetic synergy or that builds in good relating. It's compounding it's not it's not like I've got to find that number of apples and I'm going to give them to you and then I have nothing left. And I think that's the challenge is like we don't realize the energy doesn't work that way.

There's something so fundamentally important in what you just said about revising our notions of of spending and receiving and thinking more about exchange.

Eddie the neuroscientists I mentioned earlier you know I enjoy amazing conversations with them about neuroscience but I get frustrated because he studies the neuroscience of speech and language.

And I just like I sometimes say you know the languages maybe not sufficient to really carry out the kind of communication that we want you know there's the positivity energy exchange framework and then there's the cynic right and I have them both in me. I mean my urgent team relatives will say they're the one side of my East Coast relatives I won't say which one which but you know I have that in me that kind of like and some people think like oh I got like all this positivity stuff right I look I've tried it both ways.

I tried being angry I've tried being in the fight I tried being building off of the things from my childhood where I felt I was wrong and I got a lot done frankly. But when I say I got way more done accessing places of love and gratitude and appreciation it's an order of magnitude. Yeah that's not positivity that I feel like and that's just what yeah that's the I think the energy management. Part that also build energy comes through that positivity but then people hear positivity and then they go oh that's not discerning.

I mean my fathers from Argentina and went to British boarding school so he'll tell you you know like being when he was growing up he was taught to being happy and go lucky when you were dumb.

“That's what he was told you know he'll tell you a very different story now.”

Wow. He's in his early 80s still very healthy and vibrant and we enjoy a great relationship now and and he'll tell you like that that is the absolute wrong mindset. And he's 80 something years old and he's kicking butt out there. So I feel like no something it's not just my dad I've met other James Wallace. But he changed his mind on that totally and I think you know in the United States but everywhere you know like this notion like we can get that arousal through fight.

But it is a resource depleting in us. We also can't just feel like naive like everything's fine when things aren't fine. So it's this like kind of narrow bridge. Have you ever heard of the story of the the injured bird at the monastery among finds this injured bird at a monastery and wants to help the bird. So the monk is having compassion at feelings the monks about to pick up the bird and the Buddha says.

Don't hold it too tightly. That's our fight. I want to do something good but I'm going to hold it so tightly but I'm going to squish it I'm going to kill it. And then as he picks it up softly the Buddha says no no no not too light not too soft either. Because if you hold it too softly or fly away we don't even want to do it might stop flapping and it might hurt itself.

And so it's too tight to loose. That is the fight.

“The fight is not holding it gripping it and trying to save it and trying to think how do I hold this bird?”

Not too tight and not too loose so that I can actually take it to safety. And that's our own heart that's our own body and mind. It's what you're saying about protocols not not too tight not too loose. Yeah. If I never look at the sunlight in the morning that's not good for me but if I if I like make sure that I have to do the sunlight and the water and the this and this I'm going to kill myself like unhealthy in that case. Yeah.

The book is really trying to give people the big levers that will position them best to have the things they want. But the really hard work I'm realizing to not work too hard but not too light. That's the hard work of being human and some people probably like all right you know he women's 50s getting soft talking about animals.

I never felt good about it.

I'm actually probably coming through today. I'm working on self forgiveness for that because I carry a lot of pain around that.

“Finding the the peace and ease in the day and in one's life is so critical.”

It's part of the reset but it's also just great. It's like not everything. This is coming from the guy who teaches about health and health according to our optimization. The term I don't really like all that much. But part of the great thing about being human is also just like kicking back, putting your feet up and feeling the breeze. And then going back into the the internal battle that's being human.

You know. Two to try to lose and I think that in fields of science, there's something I've observed over and over again over three decades, it takes about five years of intense interest in in a topic from a variety of labs to get someplace. I don't necessarily solve the disease, but to really get someplace where everyone agrees on certain things. Like, oh yeah, this this is something we can really move forward on.

We could write a textbook chapter on this or a portion of one. I feel like in this place of health and wellness that includes psychology and the sorts of things that you work on and talk about your expertise. It's been about when you started your podcast in 2019. Okay, and me in 2021 and and there've been others so I feel like we're about five plus or minus three years into this this form of discourse. And it's been going on a long time to be fair.

But we sort of at the place now where we know certain things and most people agree on those things and they disagree on the details. And then there's this whole new landscape of like peptides and psychedelics and hormone therapies. I'm happy to talk about those because those are the things that I've been exploring in recent years that I'll probably talk about in future book. But protocols is really about there are neuroscience textbooks called principles of neuroscience. So it would be like principles of health and wellness that you can really hang your hat on.

And the principles piece is key. It's not one practice where that practice or better worst. It's like these are the principles of high quarters all melatonin. These are principles of stress regulation and excelsin analysis of principles of short wavelength light and long wavelength and so on and so on.

“And so we're there now and then the question becomes what higher level questions are we not thinking about?”

And I realize like I must have been thinking about coming in here today about like energy.

Like I believe that every human is born with at least enough energy to take that first breath.

I loved that this is what we do together because whenever I'm with you. Everyone loves you. Everyone loves your advice. The people that I know look at you to help solve their biggest problems. I do that and you do.

I'm humble. And you do. I love your work and I'm grateful that I've learned so much from you. I'm grateful that I get to see the science that supports beliefs I've had. There's so much, but whenever you come in the show, my goal is for us to have a conversation that only me and you would have.

I'm always grateful. So I'm always grateful. And I should say that I promise that I don't wax poetic or philosophical in my book. It's meant to be a reference guide of somebody's having challenges in a certain area. Once a level up in a certain area, they can go to the book.

You don't even have to read it linearly. Just go and look up the thing and you can do the thing or you can learn the science. I think the science is beautiful. I hope people learn some science. So in any case, we end every episode of on purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence.

So question number one, what's one protocol that's actually worth the hype? I already mentioned the morning sunlight viewing. So I'll build off that as do that. But everyone should resistance train.

It's critical for women for men.

“You need to learn to do it properly, but it's key to understand that that lever of health will keep you uninsured and very likely around longer.”

Second question, what is one of the most overrated health habits? While there are supplements that can really help and I've long been a fan of them since I was in teenager. And I take plenty of them. They are not necessary to be extremely healthy. They can help, but they're not necessary.

Question number three, what's the fastest way to make a new habit actually stick? Despite books and claims that it takes 21 days to form a new habit. If you're super present for the behavior when you engage in it or the suppression of behavior if it's a don't type thing, if you bring your attention to what you're doing. I believe and I've observed in their data to support the fact that three to six days of doing something or avoiding something and you're locked in.

It's in you, but the more attention you can bring to it, the faster you're going to embed that thing. Question number four, what's the most effective way to improve your focus? There really is something special to the data say 13 minute, but maybe even a short is five minute meditation. Richie Davidson, the expert on this pointed out that most people in the first week of embracing a meditation practice experience a significant increase in anxiety.

That's a super valuable skill, but when he Suzuki's lab it and why you are shown those short meditation practices carried out.

“If not every day, then just repeatedly, maybe even just three days a week, significantly improve attention and focus.”

Meditation holds a lot more than just focus, but it is in many ways a focusing exercise.

You're trying to focus on your breath, focus on everything, but where your mind and your impulses want to take you.

It's focusing practice, it's a mental gym and you get better at it and the circuits for focus are amenable to plasticity too,

which is just nerds speak for focusing during meditation gets you better at focusing and everything.

“And fifth and final question, what's helping you find a piece right now within yourself?”

Prayer. Technology that humans is beautiful as we are, it's complicated as we are, not in charge of everything and creating space for that in prayer, praying for others and just listening and asking God to use me for good to teach and to be the best version of myself, but prayers to the big one for me.

“And driven and thank you so much. The books called Protocols I hope you come back again and again to see a third time on the show. Welcome you back. It's many more times as you want and looking forward to more offline conversations like this as well.”

And so grateful for you showing up so truly openly, genuinely, genuinely as always and glad we got to learn a lot about your heart today and a lot about the journey that you're on internally as well as the mission you're on externally so thank you so much. Thank you Jays. Always great to come here and I'm going to just take a moment to express my gratitude for you, you know, being in this whole podcast public education space and health and wellness and all the rest is is a magnificent gift, but it's made so much better by having colleagues and I do consider you a colleague and friends.

Thank you. You as they say hold the space extremely well and your heart and your love for what you do and for people is undeniable. So I've certainly benefited and so many people benefit your special person and your channel ain't for good. So thank you. Thank you. It's very kind and yeah, I love my continued together. So thank you. Thank you so much.