HAYDEN PANETTIERE: The Truth Behind the Headlines (Finally Telling Her Story In Her Own Words)

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For the first time I was able to put into words, what has been going on for the past decade, I was gonna ask if I could read it. I'd really appreciate it. Okay.

Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become the happier, healthier, and more healed.

“Today's guest is one of those stories that I believe allows so many of us”

to understand more deeply, to expand our compassion, to recognize the value of what we all go through behind the scenes when you actually live a very public life. A life that we think we know, but we know very, very little about. Today, I am joined by Heden Panatea,

and I act to risk so many of us grow up watching whose careers spend more than three decades. From one of my favorites, remember the Titans, to becoming a global star on heroes, and earning two golden globe nominations for her role on Nashville.

Now, for the first time, Heden is sitting down to share her story in her own words.

In her powerful new memoir that I got to read beforehand,

this is me reckoning. Please welcome to On Purpose, Heden Panatea, Heden, welcome to the show, thank you for being here. It's an honor to be here. I want to start by just saying that when I read the book,

I can't imagine how challenging,

“difficult, and vulnerable you have to be,”

to even begin to capture the amount of life that you've lived in these 36 years. I just want to acknowledge the courage and strength that I saw in it when I was reading it. And I was so looking forward to our conversation today,

because I really wanted to learn about the human behind these words, but also behind the headlines and the news that we've seen. I wanted to start by asking you what say childhood memory that you have, that you feel defines who you are today. I've got a laundry list, I can think of off the top of my head,

but really defines who I am. I think I've been really impacted by the people that I've gotten to work with. And especially when I was at very sensitive ages, like when I think back to remember the Titans,

as you said, at 10 years old, that experience, that whole experience, everyone on set, it been playing that character of Cheryl, that felt so similar to who I was naturally as a person. I felt like that really shaped me,

really shaped my perspective of the industry, made me feel like, now I know what kind of actor I want to be. I want to be generous, and I want to be there for people, but this can also be fun. Yeah, absolutely.

I want to read from your book if that's all right. Yeah, of course.

I lost the chance to have a normal childhood friends,

relationships, and my privacy, because instead of fighting it, I leaned into the talent, I was somehow blessed with. And I wanted to ask you like, what do you think a normal childhood

“looked like, and how was you as different from that?”

Well, to me, a normal childhood looked like extra curricular activities. It looked like doing, you know, going to school, being in school all day, long, having a social life and connection with your peers, you know, going home, doing homework, having play dates, having friends over, having those kind of experiences.

And even though I did get some of that,

because I had to live that life and had to be removed from it all the time,

whether it was to go to auditions or to go to work. I constantly was missing out on the social aspect of what was going on with my... I mean, I was trying to be friends with them. But when you miss out, you know, and then you said, sit down, you really had nothing to talk about,

because I only had my experience on what I did yesterday, which was, I was on set, or I was in the city doing an audition, and that wasn't something that I could expect anyone around me to understand. So I feel like I got a taste of what I saw what a normal childhood would be. And I was on swim team, and I did do gymnastics and, you know, occasionally I got invited to a birthday party,

but a lot of the times I was left out. So it didn't feel like I had a normal childhood, normal upbringing. But to me, it was, yeah, just being able to be a kid. Yeah, did you recognize that then? Like...

“I did. I remember at school it was very tricky for me,”

because here I was trying to fit into two different worlds, and I was dealing with this massive world, which is the industry, and dealing with big emotions, like what you feel after rejection, or not getting a role, a ridiculous amount of praise and unhealthy amount of praise that you get at two young of an age.

And then I had the world that I was desperately trying to fit into as well, that I was supposed to fit into, that it should have been easy to fit into, and I couldn't fit into that either. So I was like, where do I belong? Yeah, it's hard when you're caught in between two different worlds, and you somehow, as a very young child, have to somehow make it look seamless,

and move through these worlds with taking emotions from this one into that, and that one into this. Yeah, and you don't want anyone to see you sweat. Yes. You want to make it, you want to be cool, come and collect it, because being overly emotional around your people, that age, like my age, it doesn't go over well,

and it doesn't go over well with the delts either,

“so you have to bottle up all of these emotions.”

Yeah, wow. Yeah, it almost feels like when you're with your kids, you're age, you just try to fit in and be cool, but you're dealing with these emotions you're carrying over, and then when you're with the adult, you're trying to make sure everyone's happy,

and everything's going okay. Yeah, I feel like the first time,

I really felt like I didn't fit in, that was actually when I was in kindergarten, and it was brought on by the teacher, not liking me. The opinions of the teachers in the way that the adult saw me was rubbing off on the kids, and I can only imagine what the kids parents were saying about, you know, their children going to school with an actress at home,

but yeah, I was bullied first by a teacher in kindergarten, and then graduated to first grade, was the first time I heard anyone say, raise their hand and say, "Why does he didn't get to school and we don't?" And that was the first time I felt like, "Oh, they really bothers them, that what I do." And then middle school, which is treacherous, as for anybody,

especially as a female, girls are just really hard on each other, and it wouldn't help when the teacher would roll in a screen and say, "Hey, we're going to watch a movie during class, and everyone gets excited, and then they pop and remember the titans." And there I was trying to fit in, and just trying to find a seat next to somebody who wasn't rolling their eyes,

and or hopping and puffing and having to sit next to me. I was just trying to blend,

like, do this, do a kid to the child abuse?" Yeah. Was it ever clear what the reason the teacher who bullied you was, or did they ever have any interactions with your family or...

No, I mean, first of all, Kindergarten is way too young to really have to do anything wrong.

“I mean, I remember when the first time she ever bullied me was the very first day of Kindergarten,”

and we were coloring, and they had the crowns in these wet white boxes, and they said, "You know, wrap it up, everybody close the boxes, and as being kids, you know, it became a little bit of a race of who's going to close it first, and I went to close one, and another girl went to close it at the same time, and it went on her finger, and I apologized, profusely, felt horrible about it, and I remember her best friend walked up and said,

"Yeah, but we have to tell on you, and my heart sank, and I didn't know how it's going to go,

and they walked up to the teacher, and told her, and I looked at her, and I said, it was an accident,

and she looked at me, and she said, "It doesn't look like an accident to me." And I mean, at such an age for that to like, that stuck with me, you know, all of these years later, not all of my teachers were like, there were teachers that were super supportive, but there was a substitute teacher who came and she would call me the big cheese in front of everyone. She said, "You think because you're an actress, you're the big cheese, and that's

so not who I was, and so not who I wanted to be." So, quite the experience trying to fit in, disappointed in people. I really just just wanted to, as you said, fit in. I wanted to be normal. Like every kid. Like every kid. Yeah, like all of us doing as someone, by the way, you described I had a very normal childhood, and it's hard enough as it is, even when it's normal. And so, when something's making you stand out, or someone's pointing things out, especially as kids,

when we don't have a clue what's going on, and all the other kids in your class who wouldn't really understand how to make context of this, you need an adult to kind of make sense of it. Yeah, and a lot of it, I felt like it came out of left field. I, I, one of the things I show you, read in the book is that I kept the notes that were passed to me in school, the nasty notes,

“and I kept them in my binder, and I kept them under my bed, and I think it was because I wanted to”

desperately to understand what they were seeing in me, and it started the habit of changing who I was to make others happy, to make them like me. And I thought if I could understand where there are coming from, or what they saw, or what they didn't like, that I could, maybe it was the actress in me, and I haven't been directed all my life, that I could change my performance a little bit, and it would make them accept me. Yeah, you also had, you've talked about having the pressure to

support and provide for your family as well, right? Did you always know that that was your response

really even then? Like, when you're talking about this idea of performing, making your everyone else is okay, I wanted to know how much of it was something you had to do at home as well. I want to make it clear that my father was a lieutenant in the fire department, and he had businesses, so I wasn't supporting the family, but I do remember being very young, and my mom tried to explain to me that this corporation that she set up, this corporation, she set up, paid for the cards,

“the lease on the cards, and the cell phone bills because it was a tax rate off. And I remember that”

role reversal, being incredibly uncomfortable for me, where I was, you know, on one hand, I was still a kid, and I was listening to my parents and had to do everything that they told me I couldn't could not do, but at the same time, I was working hard, making money, and this money was going towards things that I wasn't privy to. So as my dad would kick my butt, if I made people think that I supported the whole family, but then when I got older too, and my mom bought an apartment

for me when I was 16, and my whole family lived in it. So again, it was just that very strange, uncomfortable feeling of the role reversal, and desperately wanting to still feel like the kid, and still feel like I had parents to lean on. I didn't want, even when I was a kid,

ever went below mine. I would freak out and make him, you know, sit up further, so I could because

“I wanted to feel like the kid that is kind of continued on in my life. Just wanting to know that”

if I found myself in a terrible position, that I could call somebody to help me. I could rely on somebody. I wasn't the only person that I wasn't the person that everybody else was relying on, and therefore nobody was there for me. Yeah, I mean, and so natural, right to want that, to seek that is so real and so natural, especially as a young child, and kid, and then, of course, with everything else that you're taking on, there's nothing about that that feels anything,

but what every child deserves and what every child wants, and, you know, deeply looking for, but I know in the book you also write about how there's this sense of what you were just saying about collecting all these notes, and not wanting to almost let the kids down and become who they need to be, it feels like that kind of became your relationship with your mom as well, where you don't want to disappoint her. Oh, my gosh, that was my entire relationship with her. She was my

“boss. That's how I saw her. Even though she was the most supportive person when I, you know,”

did what I was supposed to do, and did it well, and was the one cheering me on. It did feel like

that was what I had to do to get her love, and that was, you know, a tough pill to swallow. I never

everything was business. Everything was business focused, and there's not, I mean, I started at eight months old. I don't even, I can't even remember a time where she wasn't a momager, you know, where everything didn't revolve around business, and there were periods of time as I got older, where I, we spent a lot of time traveling, and on the road together, and I was the only person there, so I became the confidant, and the assistant, and the therapist, and the soldier

to cry on, and everything, but her child. Have you ever had the opportunity to tell her that,

and to have that conversation with her? When I was 19, I finally got the guts to, got up the courage

to split from her as a business wise, because I desperately wanted a relationship with her, desperately wanted her to just be my mom, and so she came to my trailer during lunch when we were filming heroes, and I said to her, "I don't want us to work together anymore. I just want you to

“be my mom." And I remember being hopeful, but there was that part of me who knew her too well,”

but I also wasn't expecting the reaction that I got, which was you and me, and that's all she said, and she walked out, and part of me was like, "Oh, I'm relieved that it was short, like rip the bandade off, but then it was like this dark, looming cloud, you know, over my head going, what does she mean by or what form of pain and as she expecting, and it was disappointed to find out that it was money, and that she didn't pursue a relationship with me as just a mother-daughter.

Like once the business aspect was removed, I was hoping that if I removed this, then there will be no reason for her to be anything other than my mom, and the fact that she, it seemed like she didn't want to have, didn't care to have that relationship with me, was a tough pill to swallow. As a child, I'm sure you were also, even as a teenager, you're still dealing with the guilt of like, "How do I have this conversation with my mom?" Because I'm guessing there was a

part of you that was of course grateful, and of course, of course, but at the same time, I hear you intention loud and clear, which is, "I just want you to be my mom," and I don't want you to plan another role in my life, and then to not get that other role, even when that part's taking care of it, "Yeah, do you still not connect or talk today?" At the moment, no, there is not a relationship between her and I sadly. I've gone through periods of time where we just, we haven't spoken at all.

It seemed to me that it was kind of like there was no reason, she had no reason to call on the

hi, or how are you, or let's grab a bite," or anything like that. It's been a really tough road,

“and no matter how many times that door has been slammed to my face, I've desperately seek”

her approval for my entire life. She was the person after every take that I looked to. I wouldn't look to the director, or the producers or anybody else, the only person that existed, and the only person out with who's opinion mattered to me was hers. So after every taking a matter what I was doing, I would find her, and I'm sure I made the directors feel like, "Hey, 'cause I would run right past them straight to Mom," and I had to make sure that I wasn't,

that she was happy with it, and I wasn't in trouble, because if I didn't do it right, I was in trouble. Yeah, it was not a good reaction. But I mean, I've lived to, to please her, and even though, as I said, as you said, I'm incredibly grateful. Here she's, she,

and I've never had a conversation with her as to why she stopped acting, and decided to focus

her entire life on creating a career for me, and whether it was just that she felt like I was good at it, which is why she kept me in it, or she wanted to live criteriously, or if she wanted to create a potentially successful future for me. I haven't gotten a chance to really talk with her about that, but I'm very grateful for everything that I have, but it was just very confusing, because I never asked for it, and that was the thing like I wasn't. There were times where things

would get overwhelming, and I could tell they would get overwhelming for her, and she, she's a big

personality, and I also felt very guilty about us having to spend so much time away from my father,

and her having to spend so much time away from her son, my little brother, who was growing up, and that it was because of me, it was because of what I was doing, and it was, it was my faults,

“and I remember we were actually turning to me one night and saying, "You're the reason why I'm”

missing my son growing up," and that was a punch in the gut, but as grateful as I was, I wanted to say to her, but I didn't ask you to take me on auditions. I didn't. I was even old enough to you know, to understand anything but good, bad, hot, cold, diaper change food, that kind of stuff. So there were really high emotions. I loved what I did, and I had great experiences, but at the same time I was like, "I didn't beg you to give me your life to sacrifice all of this so that

I could have this career." Yeah, it wasn't your dream, it wasn't your choice. And I don't know if it would have been, and then I wanted that all the time. Talked to me about that, because even earlier, when I read the excerpt from the book, you talk about this idea of acting being a talent that you just leaned into, because it was a gift that you were given, and then you leaned into it.

“It's almost like you never got the opportunity to discover who you would have been. I remember being”

about, I would say around probably 12 years old, and having a total identity crisis. I mean, I was standing in my room, and I was had been auditioning and acting for years, and I was sitting there going, "Who am I?" Which part am I? Because I can be all of these different characters, and I can find all these parts in me, and I can become, and I can bring up my fiercer side, or I can be more gentle. Whatever the character called for, and they all felt like parts of me,

but who the heck was I? Just without this? Who would I be without this? So I was very aware of it, and I was very aware that it was going to have an impact on me when I was older, and I was very worried about that. I didn't talk to anybody about it ever. I didn't think anybody would ever have an answer. I don't know, you know, to it, but I was like, this is going to screw you up as an adult. It's going to rear its ugly head, and it's going to, and you're not going

as an adult, it's going to be very difficult to find the connection to the childhood experience

“that caused that. It's a lot to take on so young and hard to process, and yeah, hard to know”

where it goes, and how it moves forward with you in your life. It sounds like you are being reflective of this almost all the way. It doesn't feel like something that you've only done recently. It feels

like at every stage, whether it's 12 or 19 when you finally make a decision. Did you ever start

to feel a sense of choice and agency and effect? I grown up in a household where, you know, as much as I love the chaos of my family, there was a lot of head budding going on. So when I was 18 and heroes was on, and we had all as a family moved out to LA, and we were living under the same roof in a condo with dogs and cats, and just we were in each other. We went

“from living all living in a big house to living in very tight quarters. But as soon as I was 18,”

I went to my mom and I said, "I want to move out." And I knew I needed to move out for my own

mental and emotional health. I would say 18 was when I finally felt courageous enough to

to communicate that and to start my own life. Yeah, did that come with a sense of confidence and kind of enthusiasm that you had that or was it almost like a necessity? Like, I just need to do this to survive. Yeah, no, it was both. It was the idea was terrifying because I'm a true pack animal. Like, I need people around me. That's, it's arguably, has the biggest impact on me, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, which leads to physically.

Yes, it was survival. It was definitely survival. It was necessity. I need to get myself out of here. And it was, I carried a lot of guilt with me leaving my little brother behind in what I could no longer tolerate. And it was terrified to live alone. I didn't want to be lonely. I didn't, I wanted people around me. I was still scared of the dark and didn't want to not have anybody to lay down next me until I went to sleep to make sure that I was safe. So it was exciting,

but at the same time, I would say it was more so necessity. Yeah, I mean, as I was reading your book and learning more and more about you, it was almost like my empathy for you just like, grew every time. And I mean, that in your strength, for your strength in these situations, not as a sense of pity or feeling sorry for you, but seeing just how strong you had to be in so many different situations. And this, when I got to this part, when you write about this in the book,

you write about a moment in your career where a friend of yours takes you on to a boat,

you're led to a room, which has an older man in it, and then basically told to perform sexual acts.

And when I read that, I'm like, oh gosh, not only have you felt like you've had a really unsupported upbringing, you know, with a friend in the industry, and then ending up in a situation like this,

“could you talk to me about what that moment does to your psyche when you had that?”

I mean, the fact that I was 18, even though I lived such a huge life, and I thought I was oh, so I'm mature at 18, you know, scientifically, you know, her frontal lobes don't develop until we're 20, 26, 25, 26. So even though I felt like I could make healthy decisions, safe decisions, I wasn't capable of being fully aware of what was going on around me, and it wasn't until I found myself in predicaments that I realized, like, it might my perspective completely shifted,

and I realized that I was in danger, but by the time I'd realized I was in danger, I was quite literally out to see, and it was that moment shook me, it was shocking, and I was quite literally

happening, so it took me, I was shocked, it took me by surprise, and it was somebody

“led by somebody that I had grown to trust and see as a protector and somebody who had my back”

and to be walked down the stairs, and it was like a surprise presented as though it was like a surprise, and it was this very small room, and she physically put me in the bed next to this this undressed man who was very famous, and had his hands like this, like this was just an average day for him, this is something that happens all the time, and I waited for her to leave, and I mean that that lying in me, that fire in me, that my hair stood on, and then I became ferocious as like

this is not happening, but I had nowhere to hide, and I bolted, and I hid wherever I could think of to hide on about, on about, there was no jumping off and swimming away, and there was nobody who

was going to, I realized there was nobody who was going to be empathetic to my situation that this

was nothing new to them, I mean, you know, there's some such a horrifying event to go through and to be put in that position at 18 years old, and disappointing, and somebody lets you down

“like that, and I've been let down so much before, and when you really find somebody that you trust”

like you hold on to them for dear life, and you feel so lucky, so to be portrayed like that, it's just an awful feeling. How much do you weigh on the right now, about 13? I'm like 183, we should race. No, I want to leave here with my original hip. On the podcast of Matchup of the Lea, I pair prominent female athletes with unexpected guests.

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“In 2023, former Bachelor Star Clayton Eckard found himself at the center of a paternity scandal.”

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"Hello, gorgeous. It's Lala Kent. Post of unjuditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at Sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes. But over here, on my podcast, on traditional Lala, I'm still that Lala. You either love or love to hate."

"I've been full on oversharing with fans, family, and former friend of me's right-time shorts. I had a little bone-to-pick with shortsy when he came on the pod." "You don't feel bad that you told me I was a bootleg housewife?" "I was flipped a pizza in your lap." "Oh, God, I literally forgot about that until just now."

"Sorry, I don't want to blame all of that. I got to blame that one on the alcohol." "This is about laughing and learning when life just keeps on my thin." "Because I'm a mistake so that you guys don't have to." "We're growing, we're thriving, and yes, sometimes we're barely surviving, but we do it all with love." "It's unruly, it's unafraid, it's untraditionally Lala."

"Listen to untraditionally Lala on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts."

"It doesn't seem like I've done much of a very good job."

"And on the guy I've gotten much better at choosing on one hand, because I do feel like I have there are certain people that I have with negative energy and that are just not good people, that I've been drawn to me for whatever reason, and who I've not seen clearly immediately, it took me a while. They really were able to pull the wall over my eyes, which I didn't expect of myself having had all the experience that I have and having had things like that,

had already happened to me. Like, you would think it would have been a learning experience,

and you know, I would have made sure that it had never happened again, and unfortunately,

that was not the case. But that being said, I have, on the other hand, I have had amazing people in my life. I mean, my dad has been a huge support system for me, since I was a kid. He was the safe space, and there's a lot of me in him. He is the person I kept me grounded,

“and made me, you know, the good in me. I think I got my big, big heart from him,”

but I have throughout the years been fortunate enough to meet just incredible people, and I do have a group of friends that are incredible people, incredibly loyal, and are genuinely genuinely genuinely good. So there are just a few that have snuck in here and there. Yeah, I think, and I got to meet some of them today, you know, your best friend is with you, and all those who are wonderful people, and you know, great to see you surrounded by them,

and I was sharing this with you as we were speaking before, that sometimes I feel that, I think a lot of good people beat themselves up for attracting negative people around them,

“and the truth is, I don't think you attract negative people. I think when you get so big and large,”

and you're working your career and you're exposed to so many people, you just come across more negative people, because you're exposed to more. You know, you don't like if you're only exposed to your town or your community or whatever that you come across a couple of people, but when you start getting exposed to a big industry in a big world. Right, but it's exposed as one thing, but then it's hard for me not to beat myself up over letting them get past, you know, my defenses, letting them get

close to me, and for how long I have, you know, it's really, as I told you before, it's really important for me to have to choose the people who are around me, why, wisely, and I have an incredible team of people who are not just great at what they do, but who have become dear to

friends and confidence and protectors, and I haven't always had that. And they're not afraid

“to tell me the truth, either and not say hugely important thing for me, but it's hard to not beat”

myself up for certain people, you know, having access to my life that should never have had access, should never have been a part of my life for many, many, many reasons. Yeah, I feel like when you're young as well from having spoken to quite a lot of young talent in the industry, it's almost like you're hoping that the adults around you are making good choices, and you talk about in the book, how you are actually given pills before a red carpet

to make you feel more confident and how that planted the seeds for so many other jobs that came in the future. And again, you're coming to a point where you're hoping the people around you're especially when you're young, to help you make better decisions, especially when you start as young as you did. Yeah, and the person who handed me those pills, I had already developed a very tight relationship and a great bond with them. So when it happened, I didn't see it as anything

inappropriate or negative. I trusted this person and this person. I didn't just have a great personal relationship with this person, but this person's job as a part of their job was to

I respected to the people that I worked with. They told me to jump. They told me to wear this. I wore that. I trusted them more than I ever trusted myself. I wasn't raised to trust myself except for my instincts as an actor. That was insulting me, but as a person, it was a completely different story. And at the same time, you're getting this huge wind. You become one of the most well-known popular young actors when you land heroes and it's this huge moment and from the

outside it just looks like an incredible accomplishment. What's going through your heart and

mind when that happens in all emotions? What are you experiencing? The success meant that my mom was

“going to be happy with me so that was hugely important. It also meant that I fit in.”

Yes, I found my place that I was finally somebody accepted me and I was part of something that bothered other people and they became my crew, my group of friends. I felt like I fit in somewhere and I finally felt like my gosh, I made it. I remember the first time I walked out

of my apartment and paparazzi. I was at about 16 years old and I had imagined

getting to the place in my career where I would get paparazzi and what I just like to feel like yeah, I'm going to do one of those. It's going to be one of those like just like be perfectly you know beautiful shots and it was just sheer terror. I mean when I actually happened I heard this clicking and I looked up and I remember it feeling like I was looking down the barrel of a gun

“and it was a guy sitting in his car with his window rolled down and I was I think it was walking”

my my dogs and I was horrified because I was like oh my gosh that's not the the look that I expected to have that picture is of me looking terrified absolutely terrified and probably going

something like that that's not the shot you the first one.

Yeah definitely yeah yeah yeah yeah you can plan all you want in God last. Yeah yeah definitely I mean but you you talked about this you said this at the start this idea of just like how your life became used to living for applause like having to get the applause from your mom and then the community and then of course paparazzi whatever right it's like you kind of see that trend oh yeah and then it grows and it grew and it grew and it went from something that was like

kind of cooled something that was incredibly dangerous and incredibly invasive and not just for me but for the people around me for I did felt like the people around like I wasn't safe the people around me were we're being affected by it yeah I was very protective of my my little brother fiercely protective of the people I love period and and especially back then when I was 16 years old it was a whole different ballgame like like the paparazzi situation was across lines that still blown my minds

today that they were that were legal they were able to do the things that were said the way that they would box you in while you were driving I remember coming out of a store once and it was you know one person saw me in suddenly it was over a hundred outside and they kicked me I just felt this kick on the back of my leg and I realized and when I turned around they had a camera in my face and I realized that that's they were trying to get a reaction out of me so remember a very

“famous successful publicist set me down when I was when I was young and I think when heroes”

was about to change my life permanently and he knew that he sat me down down had a whole conversation with me about how to handle paparazzi and how to keep your expressions you know kind of boring if you if you will but give links that people will go to get that shot and the things that they

talking and it was wildly dangerous and I was like wow why especially after Princess Diana how

was this not changed how has nobody stepped in and stopped this this is crazy how did you cope and like what did you do how did you deal with all of that because that just seems overwhelming there is nothing to do like that was that was you feel completely helpless yes powerless helpless I would get in the car and I drove like bat at a HE double hockey sticks like I I would I was I became a NASCAR driver and knock on wood thank god nothing nothing nobody ever got hurt

but there was one time I was out trying to out run them in a rental car and I was going so fast down a street that I had to make a quick rate turn I hit my brakes and instead of the car stopping it just went for the slide directly into traffic so I would I mean I was able to turn into traffic like just in time the next time like somebody I felt like somebody was watching over me and protecting me at that point and sometimes I just had to go home afterwards I hit and

and I went out with a plan to do something and and it wasn't safe and I didn't feel like dealing with with them all day long so I just went home and would go hi you didn't get your getting get your shot but I also didn't get to do what I wanted when I was living on my own I

“remember having to call like taxies to at the time we didn't have over anything up to my house”

and I would have to lie down in the back seat like almost on the on the floor so that they couldn't see the pop rods that were waiting in the street couldn't see that I was in the car or have a friend picked me up and I would have to hide under yoga mats and things like that I also didn't realize like we'd go to somewhere like let's say the grove how many people were somewhere on like rodeo how many people were paid money to do this to be a celebrity

spotter and you know you think you you you've fooled them and you got out of there and it just

“takes one person to the wrong person to see you and there was your day yeah yeah well I believe”

it was around the same time in the book you talk about me and glad for the first time when you

did in the show and I was wondering what do you when you reflect back on it now and meeting him what version of you were you then when I met him I was 19 I liked myself back then actually when I think when I think back on it I felt like I held my own well I found a lot of joy in life I was a really happy person I hadn't had anything you know I hadn't lost people I loved or been through anything that had to negatively shaped me so I was I wasn't a really good mental spot healthy mental

spot when I when I met him I was full of piss and vinegar has my mom with it and did it move fast did you were you you know was it was it just instantly you both know that there was something

there at the time he was not my type at the first I mean he was like looking at a Greek statue like

“that's what it was like being and in his presence like you I just studied his his face he”

looked chiseled out of out of you know stone out of a marble like and he was so big yeah I mean his features just like everything about him was so so fierce and I was so small but the personality that came out of him was surprisingly gentle and kind and made me very curious but it I had just gone through a breakup with a co-star that I was still working with so I wasn't really in the head space of fully moving past that breakup yet so it took and it was it was another year

I think that I would we were supposed to meet up I was at the Super Bowl we were supposed to meet up

once when I was still 19 and I I guess I was supposed to call him and I never did and there he was

you know the heavyweight champion of the world and going apparently he was very pissed off that I never that he was waiting around for for my phone call he was like who does this

“girl think she she know who I am he's not he's he's not a guggie person but I remember his”

reaction to that be very very funny that's right that's right yeah so it took a year I met him we kept in touch and then actually my first fight was for my I brought my little brother to his brother despite for for my little brother's birthday so it's a very special time and then what's the nice date and touch and and then started a relationship yeah we're in the part in your book that I I found like something that I I was totally unaware of and I'm gonna read from it here

you talk about this is so while you're on Nashville you obviously become a mother and it was this idea that Nashville was almost writing based on your life and writing around you you talk about the story lands for your character Julia Barnes and how on Nashville they mirrored what you were going through in your personal life and you write this specifically I was suffering from debilitating anxiety and an addiction I couldn't shake and I had to live through it twice first

at home as Hayden and then in front of millions as Julia and that really struck me because you know

“I think we all watched TV and film and everything and we don't really it's almost like we believe”

you are that character anyway absolutely and you don't really ever know what the real character isn't to you and it's you can in interview but if you don't see that may if you only see someone for three minutes on a late night show or a morning show whatever you have no you have no real sense of who they are beyond oh well Hayden and Julia like that's who she is right like on TV in what they see you see in the nose and and what you look like you see headlines and

news gossip and all that kind of stuff you see the TV show and then you see pictures you have literally right and and that's all you get and this is why I really appreciate just how I just want to acknowledge and for anyone who's going to read this book like you get to see someone who's

“I believe live through a love hardship that has this ability to reflect and introspect about”

what's happening and when you when you put it that way and you're like oh I didn't realize Hayden's going through this she's living through the reality and I want to talk to you about the anxiety that you're experiencing and then at the same time you're living at twice because now you're having to act here work and they're writing around you being pregnant to have the show continue and then after that as well and so talk to me about where the debilitating anxiety was coming from

and what it felt like to live at twice it felt like it never ended I didn't know where

Julia began and Hayden ended in the beginning when I first started doing Nashville I thought well it's just a coincidence that our lives have so many similarities it must be and then as the years went on the episodes went on and everything kept starting matching up from you know the who Julia Barnes was dating to to being an alcoholic to postpone depression to losing her child basically abandoning her child then it was like okay this you guys are just

mirroring my life and we would get the we wouldn't get the episodes very far ahead of time so to to go to them and say hey you got to change this and that wasn't wasn't anything I was used to

doing I was just used to doing my job in making it work but it felt like the day never ended and

we would shoot 10 months out of the years year and 12 to 20 our days and I never thought I was a method actor and and I've I've worked with with a method actors who when they play a

are the character for the entirety of the filming process shooting something for six years

“10 months out of the years that's not really that's not what you want to do but it wasn't was unavoidable”

because it was my my life I couldn't come up from for air from it there was no break from it and here I was playing this very deeply emotional dark character we had so much alike but we but we were different in who we were as as people but especially when I was on set even during breaks I didn't even realize that I was taking I was becoming her constantly and I wasn't therefore taking care of myself able to take care of myself mentally and decompress and process

what's going on in my life nor did I want to talk about it because I just spent all day acting it out and crying I just felt like I was constantly I was holding my breath all the time and I couldn't get away from it and you know you're in a contract and I was I became desperate and I was

“doing every that's why I turned to to substances because the anxiety that I started happening”

the panic attacks that I started having I used to have nerve nerves a lot and I had stage fright I've had stage fright since I was a kid but that those good nerves that keep you on your toes at some point turned into genuine like genuine anxiety that made me incapable of functioning properly or thinking clearly who make me physically shake so I was self-medicating and looking for relief at the bottom of the bottle and it was the only thing that worked but I needed to numb

and needed to self numb I needed my brain to take a trip and needed to go on a vacation and I needed to not think about all these ugly things were for just a little while and I didn't find myself able to do that without the help of a drink yeah I mean it explained to me the complexity of and I asked this from the perspective of having so many friends who've gone through post-parameter depression and it just not being talked about enough and whether it be even

“initially when it happened I remember speaking to a lot of my male friends and then not understanding”

what their partner was going through only then to realize that we were just unaware of you know the amount of women that go through post-parameter depression talks me about the complexity of the emotion of having your baby go and the emotions that come with that as being a mother and then the post-parameter depression that follows that from a young age I was trapped in becoming

a mom like I was something that I always knew that I would be always wanted to be and I had

all these ideas in my head of the kind of her mother that I was going to be and I was going to have cameras in every room and I was going to capture this and that and I'm going to get them into all these these different extracurricular activities and made sure that they spoke different languages and like I had this this beautiful plan in my head and then I had my daughter and I knew something was just terribly terribly wrong and now there's a lot of stigma around post-parameter

and there's a lot of misunderstanding and it's on a spectrum it's on a scale and unfortunately

you know I never felt any hostility or negativity towards my child you know thankfully

but I wasn't connecting with her the way that I knew I should be and that I was full of stress and anxiety all the time and what I was doing to to suppress those those emotions was not normal and it was not healthy I was miserable I was

it is a depressing so over time it made things worse not better in a moment or two it might

“feel give you the illusion that it's making things better but ultimately it becomes”

backfires and it becomes a disaster but blood was incredibly supportive even though he had

no idea what was going on and I had no idea what was going on either because I had never

been around anybody who had ever experienced post-parameter depression before I had never heard it spoken about you know my mom the females in my life nobody ever said anything about it all of their stories were of of these beautiful positive moments of joy and love and I would say expectation leads to disappointment but in this in this way I had of course I had expectations

“and they were they were good and they were positive and they were they were gonna be life was”

gonna be great and at about four months old I finally went to Vlad and I said I said I needed

I need help I can't live like this anymore you know something is terribly wrong and he said okay let's let's get you some help I went to a facility during the hiatus of the show so I was kept private but I was there for alcoholism they were treating me for alcoholism and nobody ever said anything about post-parameter depression there so I felt unfixable I felt like there was no way way out of it and I was trying to process the idea that maybe I was going to be depressed like

this for the rest of my life and this was just the new normal so that was terrifying I had this gorgeous sweet angel child healthy I was so lucky and blessed and I was just a mess I was just a mess and there was nothing that I could I could do to fix it properly and there was it felt like there was nobody around who understood because there was so much stigma around it and because it's so misunderstood it took me probably about 10 months to really realize what it was that was going on of me researching

and figuring it out myself well yet to do so because I know also you talk about how like when you

finally did talk about it you even lost an endorsement deal yep need to jina I was with for 10 years

and I mean they have morals clauses which was a huge you had a huge impact in my life because I was I was a teenager and I had all the paparazzi around me catching all of these scoring moments like every every moment every cigarette that I that I smoked or bad outfit or oh she's looking chunky and evading suit oh she has a fat vagina I mean I went through through all of that you know they were there for for everything new chugina was a huge part of

my of my life I had the morals clauses they caught absolutely everything and of all the things to that they would fire me over this was the last thing that I thought they would ever fire me over and when I actually went out on to stage it was live with with Kelly and Michael I had no intention of or planned to talk about postpartum depression it just came up and I was just being honest

“and never for a second did I think that anyone or cared that anyone would have a bad reaction”

to it it was my truth so when I got that call that that new chugina wanted to fire me over that and my representative at the time said that's illegal you can't do that and even though you know she saved the day that year I knew that that was gonna be it that there was gonna be I was not gonna be invited back the next year and I had worked with these people for 10 years and I remember

hope you're okay yeah hope you're here good wish you well and I remember that really breaking

“my heart I wouldn't change it for the world I wouldn't take it back but as I said of all the things”

that I had been caught doing that being the thing that that was where they drew the line and it was immoral was shocking to me and it made me realize and understand exactly what people thought of women who experienced postpartum depression and how misunderstood it is how much stigma there is around it and how I mean we're already in pain we are already like the worst possible thing one of the worst possible things in the world to have a two woman is as already happening to her the last

thing we need is you know the icing on the cake you know and feeling so judged and in such a negative way

how much do we want the right now about 130 I might 183 we should race no I want to leave here

“with my original hip on the podcast and match up with the lia I pair prominent female athletes”

with unexpected guess on a recent episode I sat down with undisputed boxing champ Clarissa Shields and comedian Wanda Sykes to talk about Wanda's new movie Undercard the art of trash shock and what it really means to be ladylike open your free i-heart radio app search the match up with the lia and listen now brought to you by no vartis founding partner of i-heart women sports network in 2023 former bachelor star Clayton Eckard found himself at the center of a paternity scandal

the family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story this began a years-long court battle to prove the truth you doctor this particular test twice in selling

“correct i doctor the test ones it took an army of internet detectives to crack the case”

i wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for some like the greatest disinfectant they would uncover a disturbing pattern two more men who'd been through the same thing regular west began my mind was blown i'm Stephanie Young this is love trap

for a scostle police as the season continues Laura owns finally faces consequences

ladies and gentlemen breaking news at america for county as Laura owns has been indicted on fraud charges this isn't over until justice has served in Arizona listen to love trapped podcast on the i-heart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hello gorgeous it's lala kept host of untraditionally lala my days of filling up cups it's sir maybe over but i'm still loving life in the valley life on the other side of the hill is giving

grown-up vibes but over here on my podcast untraditionally lala i'm still that lala you either love or love to hate i've been full on oversharing with fans family and former friend of me's like tom shorts i had a little bone to pick with shorts he when he came on the pod you don't feel bad that you told me i was a bootleg housewife i was flipped a pizza in your lap oh wow god i literally forgot about that until just now sorry i don't want to i don't want to blame all

color that i got to blame that one on the alcohol this is about laughing and learning when life just keeps on life in because i'm a mistake so that you guys don't have to we're growing we're thriving and yes sometimes we're barely surviving but we do it all with love it's unruly it's unifraid it's untraditionally lala listen to untraditionally lala on the i-heart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast what do you want people to know about

postpone depression that you think they miss that it's real mm that it's not something we make up it's not something we want it's not um you know that we've we've we've lost our our marbles and and that it's not something that we want to to go through and we're not lying when we tell you something strong and and we're we're in tears for absolutely no reason like we don't have a control over this and this would be the last thing that we would ever want to experience or go through

joy and feel like the luckiest person in the world and and you know capture every every moment

“and for anyone to think otherwise is just misinformed and yeah I just I think people need to know”

a lot more about it need to understand to the facility you visited help you with the alcoholism or what what finally actually helped with that a high struggled with that for for years it was an on and off battle for a really long time and getting out of that depression was really difficult and the fact that I didn't have the time to really spend on on healing myself and and fixing myself figuring out you know how to navigate this and get back to my old self because I was on

Nashville and we were shootings so so much I mean at one point I did have to say to the show I have to go get treatment you're going to have to write me out of the script twitch

upset a lot of people and maybe we feel awful because I did I I'd always pride myself

“and being on being a professional but it was incredibly important from to get my head screwed on”

straight or I was going to you know I was just going to going off the deep end I was I was I felt myself sinking further and further further into this dark hole that I just could not climb out of when I was reading the book I just felt like the challenges just get tougher and tougher and tougher and tougher and tougher as you kind of you know go through it with you and they also seem kind of again just as your career in the beginning stages was almost not a choice

all of these things also feel that way where it's kind of like just happening to you and

because of you know just there's there's not a it's not a choice to bring these things on no they're coming off you know of course post crime depression and and everything else that's happening through that and not and also not having these conversations like today you know millions of people listen to this conversation and be able to have a better understanding of what that means and what that looks like in today the conversation around these things is growing it's

still not where we're ready needs to be yet and sadly there are still terrible headlines and terrible gossip and terrible stories made up about people and but these conversations are beginning to happen and you go okay well hopefully the next person doesn't have to go to the fact of not knowing where to go for help or be seen as I'll just get over it or move on over to something wrong with you or whatever the ridiculous things we all hear are in in those scenarios

“yeah I think it was around this same time that you talk about the book where the custody of”

your daughter shifts from you know over to flood and and to Ukraine I believe as well and I I feel like that was especially talked about terribly where there's so many speculations and so many opinions and so many assumptions on why that's happening could you tell us what was really happening I mean the idea that anybody would think that I would just give away my child and be okay with it is heartbreaking couldn't be further from the truth you know as you said I was I was struggling

with mental health and anxiety and the postpartum and having to act my way through it and just feeling like I completely lost myself and I think a misconception is that I have been in the past forced into treatment when in fact I have been the one who has sought it out who was saying my desperately need help I don't you know I know this is gonna look terrible but I can't live like this anymore and even though Vlad didn't understand it the people around me didn't know

what was going on I didn't know what's going on they were supportive I went to go get help they didn't know what was going on and so it became this horrible cycle for years of battling depression and anxiety and and alcoholism and substance abuse and and me just trying to find my way

until that until Kaya was two years old about two two and a half years old that of Vlad decided that

“he he thought it would be best for her to live in Europe and when that first happened I did not”

have a good reaction to it I went like mother lion I would have burnt the world down for for my child so that was incredibly difficult not you know the fact that my my child wasn't gonna be with me all day every day was I mean I mean it just you can't put words to it it's just a a really intense layer of feeling that our multiple feelings really like layer together but but I realized that you know she had been traveling back and forth for so many years

and because I was working on the show and because Vlad had had to prepare for fights and as a business man in his own right she had to go back and forth between the US and Europe and sometimes we would go together and sometimes she would go with the nanny so she had spent a lot of time over there she had family she had friends she had extracurricular activities she had a really she already had a beautiful life and she understood the languages and we started to speak them so by the time I finally

got healthy I felt like it would have been unfair of me too and selfish of me to try to pull her out

away from this this life that that she had been created that she was living an incredible life

she's an incredible girl so happy and and speaks five languages and and and rides or horses and those that she's got two parents that love her and she I I I know in my heart that she feels supported I have an incredible relationship with her I go I travel as much as as I can I see her I do spend a lot of time on FaceTime with her but we talk about really deep things so we have

really intense and incredible bond and I'm very grateful for that and I I know that

she knows that she has two parents who would do anything in the world to make sure that she is happy and healthy mentally emotionally physically spiritually and she in no way feels abandoned and that's something that I've made sure to be stay on top of and be very aware of

“and I think it's also good to lead by example as as a parent she gets so watching it just get”

born with one parent in the in the limelight with who is famous and powerful you know she was born

with two and two completely separate continents and and in their own ways but she's very proud of watching her her mom and dad kick butt and do what they do she she's she's our biggest fan I think it makes her feel like she can accomplish anything you could just see that she is good she has solid and she she she she feels loved because of the way that she's able to let herself and self the for watching as a parent you are 11 year old already have this beautiful

ability to love other people on and love love themselves is you just can't ask for more than that

“so I think there's been a comment and you know a very common misconception that I just gave up”

my my child when there is like that could not be farther from from truth so I hope people that are watching this I hope it's a little clearer and I hope it becomes clearer

context that I think we miss in in everything else and there's this really powerful line in the book

“that you share where you say you grieve not being this was at that time you grieve not being the”

mother you thought you'd be and I want to ask you how do you hold that grieve without letting it define the mother you are today the grief has definitely gotten the best of me many times many many many many times but it's transformed from grief it was grief in the beginning but because of the relationship that I do had with with her and how things ultimately played out I'm incredibly grateful to to her she is an incredible father an incredible family and I I don't feel it

even though it's not what I wanted to happen and it's not what I hoped motherhood was going to be or what it would look like I'm so lucky to that it turned out the way it did and that she is safe and and and a wonderful well-rounded person that I that we have the bond that we have which is it's something that I you know it was terrified wasn't going to happen when she was taken away that that I was going to have to fight really hard to have any sort of relationship with her

and it ended up in a lot of ways being a blessing I will always want her here you know I always

miss her I always want her to you know be and to have my arms wrapped around her but that's just

“not the way life is right at this moment but I do believe that you know there there will be a”

day where she is an adult and she's able to make room decisions and go wherever she wants and I have faith that she is going to come to me and that we're going to have an incredible relationship and bond in friendship that a lot of parents so get to have with their kids hmm thank you for sharing that

it's always incredible how like things don't turn out the way we expect them to and yet it seems

like you found a way to work at it and work on yourself and try to make the shifts and changes you need to whether it was you know with the alcoholism whether it was getting yourself up out of spaces that you didn't want to be in to try and be the person that you would that's the only option to it to me that's yeah it's is you keep getting no matter how many times you fall you you keep getting up and dust yourself off it's it's it's and and you can you keep

going it's it's how you what you do with these failures are falling falling on your face it's what you do after that really counts how you handle that the really counts and matters and I'll

never stop fighting to be good yeah I mean you're you're mentioning to me that also the

really you have a strong relationship with glad which helps this situation yeah yeah I've glad and I are very close we all three of us talk all the time he travels a lot and when he's in Europe too so sometimes we we have a three way face time going on and sometimes it's it's the two of them and me but but yeah he's been incredibly supportive I mean she's he's brought her over here she's known her great grandparents they've been a part of her her life my I've lost my

“my grant be in my papa but but they were able to to know her which was really important to me and”

she still has my nana my grandma she calls Nana supernana supernana she is supernada yeah we have we have a great great great relationship and glad and I are so best friends there's not not many people who know me on this in this world as well as as he does and I know that we still have an incredible amount of love for each other and most importantly we have an incredible amount of respect for each other we made promises that something that and for I unfortunately grow up

with was hearing a lot of negative talk from my mother about my my father and that we had a really negative impact on me it hurt to constantly you know here the first night

about one another to our daughter and that both of us have stuck to that promise and we talk each other up to our daughter and and talk positively about each other and I I check in with her make sure she uses you know being respectful and that she's loving it loves her dad and in that she knows she's a hero and and one of the bravest people I I know and and she loves both of us to that so I mean it's feel like it's an intention we all have to kind of repeat the good things

our parents did well and try to not repeat the things that maybe they didn't do so well and it's

“like we're always trying to be I think those of us who are trying to be on the path of awareness yeah yeah I've”

often just say hey I'm going to make other mistakes you're we all are because we're human but going to try and do my best in this capacity I feel like something we were talking about earlier about repeating patterns and people that we are attracting to our life and you talked about this and you mentioned it to me earlier you talked about you know surviving your abusive relationship with your acts yeah and I just I wanted to ask you about because like I said before it's like every time

you go further in the book and deeper in the book I can tell that you you know your truth and you know who you are and as you said earlier in our conversation today you were like but I don't know if I'm

always good at knowing or trusting my gut or following through on it yeah why do you think that is

I feel like I've let myself down so many times and let other people down so many times and I've just I mean I I can work so hard to create and just incredible life and career and I basically burnt it all to the ground essentially and had to you know start climbing up that mountain and it happened you know more than once and you learned having tried to get out of my own way it was the most difficult part of it it was almost like like I would it's like self-employed

and and just and destroy something good that I had going on before anybody else got a chance to it was like instead of setting myself up for failure I knew I was going to fail so I was going to adjust just it might as well happen soon rather than then later and it made me stop trusting myself I mean I wasn't even raised to to trust myself as I said before like my instincts aside from my instincts as an actor that as a human being I was not like it was not taught to really trust myself

I was taught to trust these people around me it's been a really long road and a really hard road and a really stressful road trying to to get back to that trust I had at one point

“when I was when I was younger in my in myself and how you know knowing how important it is”

that you listen to yourself that you listen to your gut every time I have not listened to my gut

I have I have always regretted it if I found myself in a terrible position

the abuse the fact that I allowed this person not only into my life but for how long I put up with it and this is something this is a topic that is I've been journaling a lot about it trying to organize my thoughts and my my feelings and I did journal last night and for the first time I really feel like I was able to put into words what has been going on for the past decade of my life in regards to the abuse and I was actually going to ask if I could read it because

“I think it's really important this topic is really important for me to word properly word well”

so that people listening really understand what what I'm saying please yeah

took me a long time to finally see the situation clearly I've had to do a lot of soul searching

the more I thought about it and analyzed it the more connections I made between the abuse I was

“allowing to transpire and the abuse I've gone through in my past they say that you end up marrying”

one of your parents and no I'm not married but I found a very interesting connection between the abuse of behavior and my mothers abuse of behavior even though they would both shake their heads and say I was crazy to think there was anything similar about the two of them they're definitely was I realized that I was more afraid of being alone than being abused and in order to be around that kind of behavior it took me dulling my senses and numbing myself with substances in order

to silence that rational voice in my head that was telling me exactly what was going on and the many reasons why I needed to get myself out of this toxic relationship and as far away from this person as possible somehow every time I found the strength to get away from my abusers

they would always find their way back into my life one way or another it was like being

on a hamster wheel and this endless dizzying cycle and the craziest part and the hardest part was to understand to understand was that the physical abuse would come out of left field but it was always when he was drinking same as my mom we could be dancing and joking and then a switch would flip and suddenly it was on something would snap and it was like watching a predator suddenly smell blood I was dealing with his Dr. Jackal Mr. Hyde situation I tried to fight back

in every way that I could think of if I took every approach from standing my ground to attempting to calm the situation to running and hiding from it until he sobered up then once he was sober that good part of him would be back and he would see the damage he had done and he was devastated and apologetic and it seemed so honest and genuine that I was torn I thought back to everything

“I've done wrong in the past in the forgiveness I was shown so I think a part of me felt an obligation”

to be just as forgiving I just really wanted to make him a better person I wanted to fix him I'm a really strong person at my core and anyone who knows me was shocked that I would ever allow anything like this to happen I have this bright, powerful light and he made that comes on but then it would dim around that kind of intense conflict I found myself trying to be smaller in week or just avoid a battle because there's no reasoning with the unreasonable and as strong

as I am I couldn't physically stand up to a grown man I know I have a big heart and I always try

to see the good and people in people so much so that it's been to my detriment at times the worst part was that by allowing the cycle to continue it hurt the people I love who came to my rescue and I cannot allow that to continue to happen in order to finally get off the hamster wheel and put an end to the cycle of abuse with him and with other toxic people in my life I had to remind myself how strong I am I had to envision the life I want for myself and most

importantly I had to take accountability for enabling unforgivable behavior. Thank you for sharing that from your channel very very personal and appreciate you in letting us in that deeply as you

“do in the book and what happened in the last couple of nights I believe. You can get for letting me share.”

I feel like I mean that's the first time I've shared that so I'm feeling the way this

this weight come off my shoulders at this moment. How does it feel to say a lot? You know when you feel so much pressure on your chest and and in those that anxiety and nerves and then you're relieved to buy something like that it feels like an elephant stepped off my chest. I feel overwhelmed in a positive way I feel like I finally I finally did it and I got to do it in my own words. In this moment I feel more trusting myself than I have in years so I got a little bit of me back just how.

that feel like this entire book is a reclaiming of who you are. Yeah. He had one step at a time, one step at a time but that it's been ten year dilemma and trauma after trauma and just

to be able to explain it at all I never thought that I would be able to put it into words.

“You said in there that you and I think a lot of us we tolerate abuse because we'd rather”

do that than be alone and think when you look back on that you can be yourself up to say why don't I leave earlier and as you are saying like I'm stronger than that like why when I stand up for myself and at the same time there has to be a sense of compassion for oneself to say you're just doing the best you could in that moment. Coming from a good place. Talk to me about that. That was one thing that was that made it all the more confusing to me is because I knew throughout

I've known throughout the whole thing that I didn't I wasn't doing anything to deserve it

“and so I say in that part like talk about how come out of left field it didn't take me saying”

anything wrong it didn't take me doing anything wrong it didn't take mistakes or jealousy or think there was no catalyst and suddenly it would be I would be being dragged by the hair and it was like what just happened what did I do and what can I do to make go back to to you know two seconds ago like what's going on and as I say you can't reason with the unreasonable and it was like the person that you love just was disappeared you I would look in as eyes and they would be vacant

like and then it was terrifying terrifying and I've always been been interested in psychology

and so trying to understand what was going on I mean I was like going through the DSM like am I in my head and trying to you know trying to figure out you know is it's skits of a skits of frontiers it has it parent looks like what in the heck it's going is going on because it was it was only when when alcohol was involved but the no amount of alcohol could ever make me capable of doing something like that especially over and over and over and over and over and over yeah

I'm so sorry to go through that it was like I don't know maybe it was my my ego like he was in my in my ring and I I felt like I was not going to let him you know when when the battle and by by me the idea what would be winning to me would be fixing him being able to fix him and make him better because I saw some good in there and wanted to bring that to the surface but it I know control over that and some people don't want to change and you just have to

“accept that as disappointing as it is again I think you being hard on yourself like I think you know”

there's a there's a short there's you know all of and in the other way we we're all people please is we're all we all have all of that in us because of our we've all been raised and there's a sense that we all want to fix people and make people better and of course we're working

on these things but we all share this and it's but it should never lead to that you know yeah

I don't know and the fact it still battles me that that it ever went there that I ever allowed it to that I ever stepped around for it I mean it's just so unlike me but I think it that a huge part of it is that being alone peace I had just finished when I met him I just finished

it was the person that I fell in love with was great so the Mr. I did not show up until

“I was already in love with the Dr. Jackal were you able to talk to anyone did you”

did you feel you could reach out to anyone or did you just feel so unsafe I felt embarrassed humiliated I felt ashamed I wanted to keep my friends and the people that I loved as a far away from the situation as humanly possible because there was no understanding it it didn't it wasn't rational it didn't make sense and I wanted to protect them from feeling the need to protect me I just do there is no explaining it without getting the reaction of what are you doing what are you thinking

and I would go genuinely just don't know I don't know what in me is is is putting up with this

is allowing this to happen I really don't and as I said before I never there's never for a moment

“did I think that I deserved it or that it was okay at all that was that was never never a thing”

I mean I used the term forgiveness very lightly because as hard as I tried to forgive I'm not unable to do that you don't forgive and forget those kinds of those kinds of things and not not just the physical abuse but it's also the emotional abuse that leaves the deepest scars the bruises my fade but you'll have to as these incredibly deep emotional scars from gaslighting and being made to feel like it was it's your fault and I think I was caught at that very

that perfect amount of time where I was incredibly vulnerable and incredibly weak be prayed on on that on my vulnerability

“what if mind control is real if you can control the behavior of anybody around you what kind of life”

would you have can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car when you look at your car you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you a gave or some suggestions to be sexually roast can you get someone to join your cult and L.P. was used on me to access my subconscious N.L.P. aka neuro linguistic programming is a blend of

hypnosis, linguistics and psychology fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your

brain to the engineering consciousness mind games is the story of N.L.P. it's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits he stood trial for murder and got acquitted the biggest mind game of all N.L.P. might actually work listen to mind games on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts when you feel uncomfortable what do you put on big you put on big even you fill

on comfortable so I want to get confident this is DJ has to print music is therapy a new podcast from me a DJ and licensed therapist 12 months 12 areas of your life money love career confidence this isn't just a podcast it's unconventional therapy for your entire year listen to DJ has to print music is therapy on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hi this is Joe Winterstein host of the spirit dotter podcast where we talk about astrology

natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life and I just sat down with a mini driver the Irish traveler said when i was 16 you're going to have a terrible time with men actor storyteller and unapologetic aquarium visionary aquariums is all about freedom loving and different perspectives and I find a lot of people with strong placements and Aquarius like our misunderstood a son and Venus in Aquarius in her 7th house spark her unconventional approach

to partnership he really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms on different houses in different places but just an embracing of the isness of it if you're navigating your

creativity and real life this episode is a must listen listen to this your dotter podcast starting

“on February 24th on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast”

what did it take to finally get out like what what is that take because i feel so many people stay there how how long were you tolerating this for well i thought i at one point thought i had gotten out of it and got no way from it but i'm it's like it's like we still you talked about for it's like this is like abusers they weave themselves like weeds into your life and there's

always something that they left behind there's also always something that they have to come back

for there's there's always something that they find to keep that connection keep you on the hook keep that connection with you no matter where you you go that they will always find you and find an in find a way to slow their back into your life so i i went from you know really wanted to keep my the people my loved ones away from it to to that's it i've snapped you don't pull out a gun and wave it around you only pull it out this is this is it's not good but

you don't raise wave it around you only pull it out if you're gonna pull that trigger and i finally decided you know that i needed to pull the trigger and i called in i called in the heavy heavy hitters and the people that were gonna protect me and make sure that he had no

way back back in that this was gonna be a a a a done deal finally i always hoped that this this was

gonna happen by me one one day and as i said i thought that i i really thought i had done it and i was capable of doing it by myself but i needed an incredible amount of support and back up in order to make sure that that there was no way for him to find his way back in what did it take for you to take that step like what what had to happen for you to say enough is an often finding out that the good that i was holding onto that i thought i saw in him was not

real that it was realizing all of the the lies i mean you got to be really good to pull the wall over my eyes and that he was but once i i knew that that good was not real that good that kid that good side of him the big heart that i that i saw was was just made up and was just acting just really good acting then i had the ability to to let go and let myself off the hook that i didn't have to care anymore and that i didn't have to feel guilty anymore about about

parting from him whatever struggles he he goes through or his and there and there no longer mind to clean up and i don't have to worry about it anymore i have released myself

“what you just said there is so real and so true and i honestly honor your vulnerability in”

clarity because it's what you just said this idea of accepting that that person's good isn't real because that's the thing that keeps finding their way back and keeps appealing to someone who wants to help and solve and fix and it's it's just believing on it but there is there's that there is that and you keep thinking it's real even if it's small and you don't see that often but then when

you finally accept owner it's not real it's it's actually the reason that they keep getting away

with this behavior and it's heartbreaking to find out that it's that it wasn't real i mean i

“remember finding texts that you'd be in having relationships and this mat and one of the things”

that that that i thought was great about him is how loyal he of a person he was and when i realized

colored glasses and i see clearly now i see clearly now and there is nothing left to as you

“say and hang on to there's nothing to to to keep me there or invested or for giving in anyway”

yeah yeah when you say have you heard you mean the FBI had to get involved right and look had to get that level on really oh um i mean they no he went to jail yeah yeah he went to jail and they they did have to get involved um but he he managed to whistle his way back in even after that for a little bit um so i had to get him out again it was it was like this this period of time like back in fourth um um battle and i mean as i said i thought i had gone

away from from him for this this big period of time and then for you know certain reason i'm i'm i'm not going to you know gory the gory details of exactly what what happened but but don't believe just what you see in a picture and there is so much more going on so much more going on truth is stranger than fiction it's truly truly is you couldn't you can't write this stuff you can't make this up as i was reading the book and thinking about all the headlines that you've

had to live through and the conversation and gossip and you know everything that comes with it and then

“you know you did this people interview i think it was like a year ago or something as well and then”

again the frumo will begin about questioning your sobriety and how you're talking and everything and then we learn actually it's because you're grieving and going through so much more behind the scenes

and i keep thinking like when will we finally stop like assuming that we know what's going on

in someone's life or we know exactly why they are the way they are and when will we allow them the opportunity to tell us because it's a real human with a real brain with a real mind with a real well being with a real emotions and and yes a matter of how successful someone is or whatever it may be it's hearing things about you that aren't true i just so like at the core just unsettling for any of us and we know that feels like at school we know what that feels like in a family and

and when somebody sees something it's like there's no changing people's minds it doesn't matter really you know what you what you say you know when i was younger my my father was accused of hitting my my mother and and even though i knew the the real story when you say something like that about somebody there's no no convincing anybody that that's not the truth and that didn't happen there are just certain things that people will go ah i'm not buying i saw i saw it for myself

when you're like if you saw the big picture you would you would it would go you go ah ah now it makes sense it's like watching yeah i feel like it's like watching a 30 seconds of a movie and deciding in the bad guys and yeah and why they're about scenario and then you're like all right well if you watch the whole movie well you walk in halfway into the theaters and it doesn't make any sense and yeah i just you know i really feel like this is me this book does that for people who want

to understand you know what what the picture really looks like and you sadly i mean you've talked about him throughout you know you've sadly lost your brother three years ago and you described

him in the book as the heartbreak of my life always right there in the center of who i am

when i asked you like how did losing him change the way you see all of this because it feels like the hardest one even though everything we've talked about is extremely heavy and hard

“oh yeah there's uh there was this i think in my life that feels like losing my other half like”

the other half that i was that was born to be my my the gang to my gang and we were so close and especially being the authors of sibling who that's your job to protect them and keep them safe

i would need to addictionary to go through all the words of for all the feelings that you know that

“goes through your mind but i i've got i mean i collapsed and it stayed with me and it”

time is like the best is the best healer um generally but it's been three years and every year it's gotten it's but it's changed the heartbreak has changed but losing him and realizing how

much of life i was gonna have to go through alone and without him where i when i always saw

him is being there you know the day that my parents are not here anymore i'm gonna have to do alone and the fact that he's he's not here to be a part of my daughter's life and the fact that

“he's i mean there's so many i've all the time i want to call him all the time and and he was”

my best best friend and and like when he first died i was from members screaming i don't want to live in a world where he doesn't exist so i've unfortunately had to but he seems so alive in my head still he was such a big big personality and he just like i no matter how the matter what like i was just one of those people i never thought anything couldn't take him down or take him away he was so good too and it makes you so angry to see

something that they're so bad people thriving in this world and then one so good that's just taken from from me why it's not fair it doesn't make sense so that's something i just i don't

think all i've ever i'll never get over it it'll just evolve luckily he was an amazing artist and i'm

i have his his paint some of his paintings and that keeps part of him alive for me he left that behind beautiful things behind but and i feel him with me i know that he's he's protecting me from where he isn't who's needed elsewhere but i wish so it's end of back to me i'm so sorry for your loss and hearing about him from you and reading more in the book it's about your relationship

it's so special to have an amazing sibling relationship even when you grow up in a home where

things are maybe a bit more complex yeah that becomes kind of like you're yeah i was my more of my rock my where the only two he was the only other person who fully understood everything about me i mean we grew up in the same position saying seeing the same things you know we we joked about the same things we laughed about the same things we cried about the same things we were if we weren't five years apart we would think we were personality wise twin you know twins so you know typically

somebody who understands you on that level yeah and feeling like i failed to keep him safe was really hard and of all the people that that should have understood him and and been there and been able to protect him it should have me and i did try and i was shaking the people around me going wake up to what's going on this is serious you know has has struggled with addiction

“is serious and i mean i remember before he was 18 saying begging my parents the sender to military”

school before he was capable of making decisions for himself that they needed to do this for his safety and he needed to to be disappointed and as much as i loved his free spirit

i mean you think about i think about the way that i'm able to forgive like and and and and how i'm

of a first person to see someone struggle and i will be the first person there like he was

“me times a hundred it was just too much i think they was too much to be”

to be him who's overwhelming this the way he saw it was overwhelming the way he felt was overwhelming so he had to numb too so i i i get it and i just wish i could have done something differently yeah it's hard when you love people and see them to that and you have a deep understanding of it because you've been there as well yourself know what that can look like

and feel like and but again it's too much pressure for you to say you know you have a big art

and you care a lot but be kind to yourself because you can't you know so often say fix everything and everyone it's right so lot i feel like that's something that they need to teach in school to children like how to be kind to yourself teach them about negative self talk because that something that we're all guilty of and and it's it's so it's horrible what it does to us what we've found out scientifically that it does to us in our energy and our way we we think and they've just

received the physical emotional mental effects it has on on us i feel it's going it's really

“important for for people to to understand that even though i be some things small in in their minds”

that that it's it's it's a big deal to talk to yourself like that when people ask you know would you would you talk to a friend the way you talk to yourself in most of the time people say no right yeah and the pressure we put on ourselves to to solve everything and fix everything and be there for everyone all the time it's it's a wonderful intention and a desire but it's it's impossible to live up to forever yeah absolutely agreed yeah no matter how much you care and love

someone it's it's impossible I'm so sorry for your loss and yeah it's it's one of those things

“that never goes away but you know you you get like you said beautifully that it's still living”

with you and you still feel him and still feeling protecting you from wherever you know he is that that's that's a really beautiful approach to to grief i can't imagine how much it took to write this book and we are we're only talking about specific events that we're diving in to there's so much more inside when people read it and learn so much more about everything we're talking about I can't kind of imagine just how much excavating it took and then to add to it all

you write about the book how you had a stalker and through the isolation through the you know and i'm just like it just keeps getting better how does that feel to be going through grief to be isolated and then be dealing with that on top of everything that you've come through that you shared today I was they have that saying when rains it pours I feel that all the time we go through periods of times where things are great and then everything will go wrong all at once

and i don't know if it's mercury and retrograde or the something in the air like what is going on the to make all of these things happen all at once but the experience with them is the man who who stalk me was was terrifying and this man was not just a stalker who was a big a big fan like he was genuinely mentally unwell and and leaving a message after a message about how he was going to bring his katana sword and to capitate and and he was I had to I had to actually

now I've had stalkers before in the past who are all talk right in no action and you go after

while you go okay they're not really going to do this is somebody who's just just has the time to sit here and do this but then there are those that you realize are incredibly dangerous and they mean what they say and they have the FBI and secret service had to get involved and

“I mean I think them both all of them from the bottom my heart for for getting him and for”

running him away he did just recently get out so well um I've you know it's I'm I'm feeling you know all these different emotions going on while having having X like the way you say the X

evaded my life and written this book and put it all out there very emotional topics

then to deal with something like this on top of it and knowing that he just got out to of jail recently is is scary they whole experience was just I did to deal with somebody that's unhinged is terrifying it's because it goes back to that you can't reason with the the unreasonable and you have no idea what they're capable of when you don't know what people somebody is capable

“of I mean we've all seen people to things that we could never imagine them people being capable”

of of doing and and to to feel like you're sitting in limbo and just and you have no idea if they're going to show it the stories that we've heard in the in the past the people show is showing up and just boom you're done you're you're gone you were to deal with somebody like like that that is that that is one of the most terrifying feelings in the world yeah can't even begin to imagine unhappy that you was the icing the icing on the cake was very very

like I'm happy that you're protected in that you're taking the right precautions and measures because you're absolutely right and just glad that you have the right people around you to see you through this you know I wanted to there's only one last thing I wanted to say to you and and and ask you was just you know when you came in here and I want to point this out because we've had we've had to revisit for this conversation to talk about the book we've revisited so many

hard and dark moments in your life when you came in today yeah this big smile in your face you created me with a really warm embrace you're so kind when we walked over here we were having a wonderful conversations and you were telling me just about this next chapter of your life and how excited you are to attract goodness into your life and attract love into your life and just and I can see in your eyes and you know you are this light as you said it as yourself

in your journal and I want people to know that that I felt that and so that when you came in because you know we've revisited the past that that is is tough and is talked about in your book this is me but when you write a book like this it almost feels like the end of a chapter in the beginning of a new one as well you can put all of this together and share it and I want to ask you that what would you what would you want to call the chapter of this that you're entering

into now that you won't in with today that that I got to experience I don't know yeah it was one of the hardest part of this too was in was figuring out what to call it I felt like I couldn't come up with the name until I was already as tell I was done with the process of the book because sometimes people do it in the middle of the experience of pretending people do it they need a title before they start the process of writing and I felt like I had to wait till the end

so I mean I would have this I feel like it would take fun come up with something good I would I would

“have to see where that where the book went see where my life is going to go because I”

like I'd finally feel like I have just shaken off all of this darkness and this negativity and that

and I can feel all the possibility all the possibilities all the exciting possibilities they've

“I feel like I have a lot more life to live absolutely I think you're one of the toughest”

and most vulnerable and bravest people who sat in that chair and I really noticed and acknowledged just how much work you've had to do to even be sitting here right now to share your story with this much grace and courage thank you for trusting me thank you for being here and I'm really

looking forward for people to read this book and I hope it reaches the people who who really need it

right now people who may be caught in cycles that you found yourself in can break out that I can

“protect others who are in the early stages of careers like yours I pray I just wanted to help”

people I want what I have gone through to be for a reason to have happened everything to have happened for a reason and and for that reason to be to help people tell people goes to whatever it is whatever challenges they're facing and to know that it's it's possible it can be done thank you can I give you a hug of course if you love this episode you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion

there's blessing in the break-in and every moment that you encounter in your life even if it's just road rage hey it's Nora Jones and my podcast playing along is back with more of my favorite musicians check out my newest episode with Josh Groban you're here to the fans know what that's for me yeah I was definitely the Phantom of that that's so funny listen to Nora Jones is playing along on the iHart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts

hello gorgeous it's lala Kent post of untraditionally lala my days of filling up cups it's there may be over but i'm still loving life in the valley life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes but over here on my podcast untraditionally lala i'm still that lala you either love what you love to hate it's unruly it's unfraid it's untraditionally lala listen to untraditionally lala on the iHart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast i'm Bailey Taylor

and this is it girl this podcast is all about going deeper with the women shaping culture right now yes we will talk about the style and the success but we are also talking about the pressure

the expectations and the real work behind it all as a woman in the industry you're always underestimated

“so you have to work extra hard in a way that doesn't compromise who you are in your integrity you know”

i like to say i was kind of like the silent ninja listen to it girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts this isn't iHart podcast guarantee human