Riz Ahmed: How to Silence Your Inner Critic (And Build REAL Self Worth)

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“I have long deep history with this critical voice in this shame and I really think it can kill you, man.”

What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong, different parts of me in every place I go to? If you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went and you're probably not in the right place,

what is "Risarm Ed's Dream", external markers of achievement, the award, the round of applause.

They don't nourish you on a soul level and the thing that I'm seeking now is a sense of flow. That moment when you forget yourself. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become the happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest is someone I've been wanting to have in this seat for God knows how many years. I'm joined by the one the only "Risarm Ed" Academy Award winning actor, writer, producer, and artist known for sound of metal,

rogue one and the night of, and for bringing deeply human stories to life. "Ris" is currently starring in "Bate" if you haven't seen it, make sure you do. A series exploring identity and the tension between who we are and how we're seen. His reimagined film, Hamla and Digger, his new film coming later this year. Please welcome to On Purpose, "Risarm Ed", "Ris".

“Honestly, whether it was post 9/11 blues, whether it was four lions,”

we've been with you from the start, I've been cheering for so much. I am a huge fan of how you put yourself out there, the conversations you have, your multi-disciplinary art form, and honestly, I've been waiting for this moment, I feel like, for like, God at least, at least seven years since I launched the show, "Liarquise J" because I'm watching you, and I've just been rooting for you from the beginning, and, you know, we were just saying this before

the camera started rolling, we have so many people in common in the work world, but also in the personal world, because we grew up not too far away from each other and kind of overlapping worlds as well. So seeing you doing your thing, blazing a trail, it's just super inspiring, so "Liarquise" man, I've been itching to get in here and, yeah, talk to you. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, I was thinking about it, and I want to vouch for this,

because I like doing this when I've got someone on the show, when I've got a memory that stands out to me, and it was probably around five years ago, I think it was, you'd be nominated for an Oscar. We had this South Asian Oscar's evening in LA, and you were at the party, it was probably the only time I've actually been in the room with you, it was me, you, and we were talking about Bella Bajoris, chief content off, so Netflix, dear friend,

and you said to Bella, you were like, "Give this guy a show, man. You were like, you were vouching for me even back then." You're like, "Give him a show, Bella, what are you doing?" And I was like, "This is so nice, I'll take you." You're the man at the moment, you're nominated for the Oscar,

you're trying to get me a show, and now we've got three shows at Netflix.

So amazing, you know, I feel like you planted a very important thing.

I want to give you your flowers and give you a present for that man.

“For me, the reason I was rooting for you was because of not just what you have to say,”

because of course what you say is so rooted in this ancient tradition, it's how you say, it's how approachable it is, it's how human it feels, it's how relatable it felt, just even selfishly on a personal level. When I hear you speak, when I see the way that you're relating to people or making these things, they can sometimes feel very abstract or kind of elusive ideas, esoteric ideas and bring them

into the everyday, bring them into our daily lives, it makes me feel less stupid.

understand, I get to grips with that. And I'm certainly one of those people who for a long time thought, what's this meditation stuff, what is this, this is kind of a bit airy fairy, and it actually became such a big part of my life for many years and changed my life in so many different ways. It's really because of people like you, making it relatable, making it human. So yeah, on a personal level, I was, I need more J-shaped in my life, to be kind, man, thank you.

That means the world. It's an incredible moment for you. I feel like you're everywhere in a good way.

I feel like bait has just pierced through the zeitgeist and the culture. I mean, 95% on Rotten Tomatoes, unbelievable. That is ridiculous to even think about. And to see the kind of

“conversations it started, it's not just, oh my God, you should watch this show. It's really good.”

It started conversations about identity, about shame, about mental health, about inner critic, about guilt, about all these things. And you see it, wherever I go on my feed, whether it's TikTok or Instagram, either it's you or someone talking about the show. How does it feel to put yourself out there in such a vulnerable way? Because this story has so much of a correlation with your reality. How does it feel to put yourself out there, almost not wanting validation,

and then to be validating for it? It's really interesting, isn't it? Because the whole show is about validation seeking and how it can lead us down a really dangerous path. It's very natural, it's very human with social animals to want that connection, want that praise, want that affirmation, to be seen. But if you are purely dependent on that external validation and you're not giving yourself that self-love, you can become completely lost. And that's what the show is about.

“And the show is really inspired by my own journey with that. You know, I've been on that journey,”

I continue to go on that journey. I haven't fixed it. I haven't solved the equation. It's a constant battle. You know, trying to find that self-love and not just be on a treadmill, looking for it from other places. So the show is about that. And about trying to get past validation. So in a weird way, when people are validating the show, I'm like, this is a trap. You know, it's interesting.

I was saying something, that is to someone the other day, which is, I've never been great at receiving

praise just now. When you were saying, when he's nice, things about me, I was actually saying, you know, I'm on the way with Jay Shey. I'm going to open my heart trying to be present and receive receive the good energy, but something in me and I'm sure you've come up against this with all kinds of people. I don't know how you deal with yourself, even. Something about receiving praise, something makes me feel uncomfortable. And so I'm trying to find that balance of not being

desperate and hungry for it. You know, you can't live off a diet of this candy of these dopamine hits of people's prey, but also just receive it. You know, avoid it. I can sometimes string between those extremes. You know, there's no one hand is Googling yourself, late at night, and only other hand is like going, nah, nah, there's nothing is rubbish, and so I'm just trying to find that healthy middle ground because the show is about that in a way. Yeah, no, I find that powerful because

I feel like it's almost like my friend said this to me the other day and I really liked it. It's this idea of like too tight to loose. Like some of you holding yourself too tightly. Like everything matters and everything's important. Yes. And then sometimes you don't hold yourself tightly at all. It's too loose. And you're like, oh, nothing matters. No, it doesn't matter where anyone else says about

me. And it's like, if you think about it, you're always trying to oscillate between two tight to loose.

You're trying to find that perfect balance of like, how do I hold myself in a way? I don't suffocate myself or strangle myself. But how do I hold myself in a way that I don't also just let myself go where nothing is important or valuable? And I was thinking about it because in the show, we get so many of these flashbacks into stars, childhood, teenagers. I've seen the show. I loved it. And I have been talking about it with colleagues and friends and people who have all had

interesting reflections on it. Both people from South Asian backgrounds and people from completely

“not. And that's what I love about the show is that it starts really fascinating dialogue beyond”

culture and gender and race. But one of the things that stood out I want to ask you is, what's a childhood memory that you have that you would say defines who you are today? When I was about eight years old, me and my brother got put up against the war by a couple of skinheads for people outside of the British context. They're kind of like, it was like a racist movement basically. And they put a knife to my brother's throat. I remember being eight years old, looking up at him, he was kind of

defending me. And it was just the this kind of shocking realization that, oh, I'm different. I'm different in a way that means that I could be a danger. And feeling other than that way, maybe more vigilant, maybe more aware of my identity in many ways has set me on a lifelong journey of trying to like square the circle of my identity. In some periods of time, I tried to code switch a lot. If I've gone to a predominantly white upper class school, which I did,

I code switch in that way, then I hang out on my neighborhood, I code switch another way. And I

from one social environment to another. It's a kind of performance, right? And where I'm at

now and really what the show bait is also trying to do and what it's about, it's about a search for identity. So I'm trying to bring all those different sides of me together, not edit and sense myself when I walk into a room. I did this morning up for SNL UK recently and I was working with the writers on it and it was about identity crisis. And I was like, I'm having an identity crisis, the UK is having everyone's having a identity, we're all trying to work out where we are. And I said,

“look, that's why I sound like a mix between Stormsy and Richie Soonak. And just trying to embrace”

that, be playful about that confusion. I think that moment of realizing my difference in navigating identity was a big one. The other one's a lot more of a playful memory. Every time there was a community gathering. At some point, the aunties would be high on Coca-Cola and Fanta and they would say bring Golu down. Golu was my name in the community. Golu means Roundo. Yeah, it was a very cool round object. Apparently my brother named me Golu at a round hit, Corona. Don't ask. But bring Golu down.

It's time. And I would perform. And I would do Michael Jackson dancing. And I would do like just

wrap. And it honestly, they basically, I'd be smashed off Golu Coca-Cola as like a six year old,

just like just freaking out, just throwing my limbs, you know. And I just remember these rows of aunties just sat there clapping, just feel like, this is the best feeling ever. I'm just getting to express these quite wild animal movements. I mean, it did look nothing like how dogs you should

“look. Or just basically freak out in this really expressive way. And be affirmed for it quite strange.”

But I don't know if anyone else can relate to that. If any other kids out, they would brought down to dogs for the aunties. But I see the mixture of those two things, you know, self-expression and navigating identity is something that could be a bit dangerous. Those two elements I think have kind of really forged my whole path. And I've been exploring how those two things relate to each other my whole life. Yeah, I'm fascinated by those two memories because they

like you said, one's playful and has certain consequences with what happens with that, the validation, the the praise, the applause for losing control. And then the other one is actually quite to be in that threatening place as a young man with your brother and feeling the the racist implications of having that kind of interaction with so many people. I mean, sure, I'm sure you experienced a lot of that 100%. When you said, "Golu, I was like, so I was over weight growing up."

So I was bullied for that. I was bullied for the color of my skin because the area grew up and they went a lot of people of our color. And so I get it, like I hear that. And that doesn't

“make it any more normal or easier, better for any of us. It's just like, no, that's what you went through.”

But I can also relate to the other side of the aunties. I can totally relate to everything you just said, around just like, we'd be at like an event and the act had pulled out or something and then my mom would be like, "All right, you've got to go on stage and save the day and I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I haven't prepared anything. I'm not ready for this. And I'd have to figure it out.

We're all out ages trying to please aunties." Literally, literally, always trying to do. And the

funny thing is, where I was saying this the earlier and I saved it. But I was like, you know, like, you kind of, you lived the aunties dream. Like, you went to a great school. You then went to Oxford and did PPE. For anyone who doesn't know, that's the Prime Minister's degree. Like, the Prime Minister's of England, I think pretty much every single one of them did PPE at Oxford as a subject. Like, it is the most well-class degree, possibly during the whole entire country. Then you

go on a become an actor and then you go to the enactor too. I'm like, you did it. Like, you did the academic dream, you did the, you did your dream. Like, when you look at it from that perspective of, hey, wait a minute, I actually lived every dream here. When you look back and go, what is my dream now? Or uncovering what is Riz Ahmed's dream? Do you have anything that feels close? You know, it's so interesting here and you say this because I don't know if you have this Jay. If I sit back

here and I say, Jay, you've done this thing. You brought kind of mindfulness and this Eastern philosophy to, like, the world, you've got the world, number one hell of podcasts, all this kind of stuff. You're aware of those things, possibly as facts, but your internal experience of it. Does it really land like that? Or does it feel like a series of mistakes that went right? Moments of hubris that went wrong. A journey that's constantly unfolding

that you're not quite in control of. And in many ways, like, you don't stop to, like, breathe it, but maybe you, I mean, I'm sure you stop to breathe all the time. So you stop to kind of, you know, kind of really have, check out that perspective. But when you're seeing these things about kind of living the dream or whatever, I guess I don't see it like that. I feel very grateful for my journey. And maybe the reason why I don't see it like that is I've realized that all these kind of

external markers of achievement, it don't really land. They don't really land in the way you think they

these dopamine hits. Those moments of the little kid dancing in front of the aunties, being

had another cup of Coca-Cola in a round of applause. And, you know, those moments, they feel nice, feel good, but they're very, very fleeting. They don't nourish you on a sole level. Those external things. I think what we're searching for as artists, the storytellers, as actors, but really any of us is a sense of flow. You know, that moment when you forget yourself is that feeling when you're not literally self-conscious. And you talk about this so much, right? And is this feeling of connection

to all things and all people and every now and again in a fleeting moment where they're lost in a jigsaw puzzle you love or a video game or a or on stage performing or in a conversation, playing with your kid, you forget yourself. And that's the thing I'm chasing. It's trying to live in that as much as possible, both in my art and in my life. I want to try and just find a way of just living as close as possible to that pocket, rather than these milestones and these trophies

and these things of achievement. Of course, we all have an ego. We need one. I'm still setting goals and still setting targets. We're still living in this world. But I've realized in a weird way having achieved some of those things, having taken some of those boxes as a feed your soul in the way you think it will. It makes so much sense because I think that humans were only good at living

“in the two extremes. So one is life is all about goals, it's about the milestone, it's about”

winning and I want to get there. And then the other option is none of that matters. I've just got a B and really it's all in the middle somewhere like your saying, which is I need to have goals and I need to know where I'm going. But I know that that's not the thing that's going to feed my soul or make me feel full. I've been just thinking about this a lot lately because I talk about these things and I practice these things. But then you meet someone who does it better than you more naturally,

more effortlessly and you go, you talk about me. Yeah, yeah, I was talking to you. It's not my life. Thank you. I still have one of my friends who's like, she can make like if she saw a beautiful colored flower on the side of a room, she would stop and grab them and feel like someone just gave

her a million dollars. Amazing. And it sounds ridiculous to say it, but having watched her do that,

I'm just like, that's what I want. Like to be able to be able to turn that really ordinary simple moment into feeling like it's the most, and we see this in kids and you're a dad too. And so you see this in kids when you watch a kid just marvel at something and they're lost in a moment. You know, there's that classic stereotypical thing of like, I'm trying to get everyone out of the house. Put on your shoes because we've got somewhere to be milestone, objective, achievement,

goal. And the kid is like playing with the Velcro on the shoes. And it's that. That's the thing. That's what it's sort of like, it's this moment. What you're saying kind of reminds me of

“obviously there's that cliche, it's not a destination, it's a journey. But I think you need to set”

the destination so that you get to experience the journey. And that's what I'm talking about. It's like you can aim to achieve XYZ. Just know that XYZ isn't going to be the juice. The juice is going to be that feeling of flow that if you're lucky, you might feel trying to get there. You know, the love that we've got on bait was overwhelming for me in a way because it was so personal, because it was drawn from such a, my insecurities and neuroses and such a personal place. Not

because I'm trying to do something. It's all about me. Actually because I think those feelings are universal. I started, I was just saying to my wife, it's like, should I be enjoying that more? Should it be landing more? And that's when I realized like it's actually the reward was the process of making it was a process of reaching inside to a vulnerable place and kind of offering it up. There's a moment of offering is that moment of letting go? There's this sample at the start of a

J. Cole track called The Climbback. The track's called The Climbback and I think it's a sample from

“a very old audio book called The Tower of Leadership and it says, "You need to ask yourself”

why are you doing this work? Is it to get or is it to let go?" That's it. When you're reaching inside to share something and it's an offering, that is the reward man, that feeling of lightness,

that expansiveness, the things you get back from it, they're nice, but it's never going to be the

juice like that laying go was. So I'm trying to be making my piece with that now. If you're service, let's all trust the checks with the train. That's us. 270 hours with zero

training's legit. It's the smart choice for smart folk and care for their steed. So trust the instant oil, change that starts with vowel. Now the lean instant oil change,

change wisely. Joy is essential and it's also elusive. You can't order it, you can't borrow it,

or simply hope it in the life, but now. There's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, how to copy. Together, guys, we'll have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Entertainment legends, sports icons, wellness experts, and everyday people will share how they find, allow, and experience joy, and offer some of my own tips and takes on seeking a more balanced

and harmonious life. If you're craving inspiration, support, and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Joy after a breakup, joy is an empty nest or joy after a loss. Joy as a caretaker. This new podcast will speak to you. Listen to Joy 101 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news.

What's the news, Jonas? We created our own podcast. Oh, hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. First, people to do podcast. Pretty. Yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts, friends. But this one's extra special. So how do we,

“how do we actually come up with a name? Hey, Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a”

call about what we should call it. And oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. Well, this is how you guys remember it going down. Yes, I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast. People could call in and say, hey, Jonas, and then I broke down on my little note pad. Hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title. Oh, the podcast. But thanks for remembering

that, guys. Listen to hey, Jonas, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Just listen, we don't care where you hear it. That's huge, though, to even be attempting to do that. Because it's so easy to stay on the hands to work. It's almost easier to just keep producing, keep building, keep putting out, keep doing that thing. You have this great line. I think you said it in one of the interviews

and it's, it's in the themes of, it's even in, I believe it might even be in the show. But you said, like, life just feels like one big audition. And I wanted to ask you about that. I think it's such a great line, because I think people are exhausted feeling like their life just feels like one big audition. I think so. And we see, obviously, your character, Charlotte, he's like, he's going for an actual audition. But then his life turns into pretending like everything has to

be about that moment. And he has to be that character in his normal life. And I think we do that

“to ourselves. Is it possible to live as if life is not an audition? Yeah, that is really the”

central idea of the show that's why the show is based around an audition. It's not really a show

about being an actor. It's about this. We always feel like we are all auditioning. And that's

because I think of social media to a considerable extent, the attention economy that we all exist in, that our value is about visibility. And so we're all constantly performing this version of ourselves that we think we should be. That we think people want us to be. That's true in a LinkedIn profile on a Zoom call on your social media. Just as it is for an actor. Right? Like, here's the script. I have to behave like a more desirable, put together successful version of myself. But actually,

I can't make sense of this script of life. And I'm having a panic attack. And so how do you switch that off? How do you kind of like stop performing? I think it's really interesting because you could say, well, you know what? It's about being really vulnerable. It's about embracing

“your messiness. You could also get into like performative vulnerability. I think so much of it isn't”

about what you do is about why you're doing it and how you're doing it. And I have to be honest,

at least for myself. Like, I've never gotten to a point where I feel like I've cracked this. But

I have some days, some off the noons, where I just feel like it's not about me. Yeah. I've forgotten myself. I mean, that sense of flow. And ironically, that's when things are going the best, you know, when I'm not thinking about them in that way. But I don't, I mean, how do you kind of find this as well? Particularly kind of operating in a world that's about mindfulness and meditation and finding your purpose in a spiritual level. Of course, the medium is often digital and social

percent, you know, you're trying to do something spiritual and forgetting yourself. But you're doing it with people watching. I haven't figured out either it would be stupid to say I have. And I'm

“grappling with it too. And that's why this interview is so exciting to me because the themes in”

bay are so universal, no matter what you do. And like you said, whether someone's applying for a job on LinkedIn or whether they're just trying to make their mom happy or whatever it may be, it's all in there. And so for me, I started to realize that and you'd feel this way, that as an actor, it's slightly different because with an actor, everyone thinks you are your roles. So right, like if someone meets Chris Hemsworth, they think he's thought and like they think they

get an approach around man. Yeah, they think they get an approach with thought. If you see Robert Downey Jr., you think you're with Iron Man, like Tony Stark, like that's who you're in love with. You're not, you don't know who Robert Downey Jr. is. Same as Chris Hemsworth. Where is for you, the public and private self? There's an authenticity. There's a coherence to it. Yes, there is in the sense of, yes, I do this in real life and I do it online. But I'm also a complete human being

with lots of other desires and lots of other complexities. So like what I try and do as much as I can, which helps me more than helps anyone else is like, I try not to say anything profound on a around people because it's people come up with a dinner party. They're expecting Jay's going to be stopping some jazz. Yeah, I'm like literally the planus. Like, yeah, just come and United School. Yeah, exactly. I would literally start talking about football because what I'm trying to do is like,

“I don't want to play up to the caricature of what I think I've become. It's like a comedian that”

just thinks they have to be funny all the time. So I can feel like, oh God, I've just got to be everything that comes out of mouth has to be profound and not it's not only is that not realistic, it's not possible. I'm not, I'm a normal person. I know everything I say is like deep and life

changing and I don't even want to be that. And so it's this fascinating thing that I'm always dealing with,

who makes you feel better Jay the time we've spent. I've always felt to me to be very superficial. Thank you, I'm very sure everyone knows what you want to hear. Yeah. But yeah, so I think my point is I'm always in one sense compensating for that by creating moments of breaking the image. You know, somebody says something really interesting to me that in a way inspired the whole show of bait, right? It was this one thing was this feeling of life for all of us feels like an addition.

And the other thing was the distance between your public and private self is the amount of shame that you carry. The distance between how you want to be seen or how people see you and who you are when no one's watching. That performance that we are all living in, that's actually about, that's a measurement of shame. And I was like, I want to do something in that spot and for me in that space between those two versions of yourself, that space really

started opening up for me a lot about 10 years ago when I started to become more known in America doing some work here and doing things like Star Wars. That is when it just felt so at odds, you know, the perception and the reality couldn't be more different. And that's something that's stressful absurd, but it's also kind of funny. And so I wanted to kind of liberate myself of that shame, hopefully, and via other people to liberate themselves of that shame as well, by actually trying

to collapse that distance between the public and private self. So I'm always an actor. Why

if I make a show that's taking all my vulnerabilities and neuroses and and laugh about them and put them out there. And it's so much in the show that's really directly from my upbringing. There's that skin-ed moment, a version of it. I had a panic attack once when I was supporting Bhutan cloning concert at Candice Town Forum in North London. We re-filmed me having a panic attack. You can't reach town forum. I said, I want to do the same place. I want to

burst out into the same alleyway and have the same panic attack there. Even, you know, the British Security Services, M.I.5, and M.I.6, recruiting my character. They've tried to do that with me. I can't believe that. That's a crazy story. I'm sure I became more known as an actor. They reached out several times saying, "Do you want to help us with messaging? Do you want to sit down?" I'm not saying, "Oh, man, I want to stop not getting involved with me." No, thank you.

But I try to take all these kind of moments of confusion and contradiction and try and put them out there because like you said, that the gap between your public and private self

“can feel like a straight jacket. I think we're all doing it. You don't have to be, you or me,”

I can sit with all kind of performing. It feels like these days. Yeah. And I feel the challenges, and I love that idea, the one that you shared just now, this gap between your public and private self, how big shaming, how deep the shaming experiences. And I think that the biggest challenge

becomes when you never leave the stage. And so everyone has to perform, everyone has to perform at work,

everyone has to perform with family. You know, there's going to be places in your life where you

performance on stage is who you are and is reflective of your worth, that feels like when you're really stuck because now you're saying the value I get from being on the stage is all the value I have. And especially if when you leave the stage, you're trying to be as boring as possible. Do you know what I'm trying to say? You're trying to be as imperfect. It's impossible. What is love? What is your safe place? What are your safe relationships that a place we don't have to

perform? We get to be the messy, cute, chaotic, neurotic boring version of yourself. And so this weird things happen is like the place of love and safety is a place where, and it should be like this, you know, my cousins, they laugh about what I do. Our friends was one of my cousins, right? And

“we split football to here at like 50 days exactly, right? But what I think I love about that,”

what's happened with my cousins is when I got nominated for an Oscar for acting, one of my cousins genuinely was like, okay cool, like, what is that big deal? Is that like when I won regionally employee of the month? I was about to say like, well, I would touch he's not like reading region employing them. And another cousin came in and went, "No, it's not like that because you actually won that award." Reason for in the month, he didn't win. Oh, that's that's healthy.

That's good. Do you know what I mean? To have your safe place be one where those things don't matter with the performances in material. But it can be lopsided, right? So people get addicted to being out there and getting a pat on the back. Not only are we trying to be liked or validated, it's like, what bait again is set up for is trying to be something you're not. So obviously your character's trying to become the next James Bond. And it's not really about bond. It's

“this idea of I'm trying to be something I'm not. And I think that is even more difficult than just”

trying to be liked because before there's one version of you trying to be liked for who you are.

And now you're trying to be liked for someone you'll never be. And that's like an even more

complicated place to be because now you're taking on traits, personality types, clothing, whatever. I mean, I'm half disappointed when you didn't sharpen a touch today. You know that, right? Like it's like if everyone else is subway takes you sharpen a touch. Everyone else has to be. This is where it's a boring. You're not very, look at it. But that idea of trying to be someone we're not, I find that to be like the golden handcuffs, the drug of society where I remember when I

started when I left the monastery and I started working in the corporate world just to pay the bills and survive. I remember thinking to myself, this place is trying to make me someone that I'm not. Yeah. And I could spend 30 years here becoming someone that I'm not, could become partner, could make money, whatever. And that's the challenge people are having to work with because we're lucky we get to express who we are through our work and tell stories and everything.

“But when I think about someone, he's like, "Yeah, I've got a reason. That's what I've”

got to do every day. I have to be someone I'm not." Do you think that we all have an essential

essence and go, "This is who you are." Like I said, I grew up code switching with these very different sides to myself wearing a school uniform school and then Shavayekamizah home and then Reebok classics and fake Vassachi out of my friends, literally changing costumes, accent and personality. There's a form of acting. Now I try and bring all of that together, making things like bait or my version of Hamlet or whatever. We bring these different things together in one place.

Do we have an essential centre? Isn't it just about our circumstances and our environment? This is when I'm asking you to say something profound. I need you to help me out with this. What's your take on this? Do you think we have like, "Okay, this is you, uh, you'll call and that's you at your call?" I believe that life is more about a collection and connection of ideas and stories and narratives that you've built as opposed to a

centre that was always the case. And it can sound easy to say it, but actually it's really hard.

Like I always say to people, "I'm as much in love with monk wisdom as I am with building a media empire as I am with being a loving partner as I am with a good friend." Like I'm like in love with all of those parts of myself and I'm like trying to become okay with all of those things. Those things that are seen as contradictions correct and paradoxical and they feel like they don't mesh, but I'm like if everyone sat down and asked themselves who they were,

I think we all have paradoxes. We've been taught to say, "I'm an accountant. I'm married. I'm Hindu." Whatever it is, like we've been taught to have very simple labels which are very, you know, incomplete. Yeah. And I guess it's like less about finding yourself means being in one lane. Yeah. I don't believe in that. I think that having all these different sides to who we are is human and universal and healthy in a way. Over the last 10 years or so, I kind of really went

game, I felt like for some reason I had to justify it beyond just myself enjoying it. Now I'm like, "My joy is valid." And if other people take joy from my work, that's valid as well.

But I always felt like it's going to be a, have a great purpose. Right? And for me, that was about

trying to stretch culture. This idea of one person at a time, one film screening, one performance at a time, opening people's hearts and minds to an experience that they didn't think they could relate to. But actually, wow, I recognize myself in it. It's like, I was a big fan of watching the crown. And you know, when you're watching the crown, you suddenly like, "I'm the queen of England." That's me. I'm a, I totally, you know, how it's this amazing body swap that story can achieve,

right? And so to try and open people's hearts and minds to realize that we're all the same, we're all one, and to stretch culture in that way. And before I use to think, okay, that means me popping up in all these roles that are as different as possible to me, change people's ideas about who can play that role. Who can be in a start was maybe in all these kind of stuff. And now

“more and more, I think, like, I want to share the messy contradiction of myself. I used to think”

acting was about putting on the mask. Now, I think it's about taking it off. It's actually about sharing the most personal thing possible. And that ends up being the most universal. Yeah,

thing. Yeah. You know, it's something actually, I've never really talked about publicly before

Jay, but I did this film called Mogul Mogli. And it's about a guy who an artist who suddenly loses ability to walk becomes tremendously ill overnight and is never sure if he's going to get his life back. It was an exploration of lots of themes that I was interested in creatively, but what people don't know is that that basically really happened to me. It was 2015. And I just started filming Star Wars. I'd never done studio movie before, never done a big franchise. I never thought it would

that would be my path. I was really happy doing Indies like night crawler and four lions. I suddenly got to be in this film set with storm troopers and all these big things. I was like, wow, is this, is it going to happen for me? One week into filming that. I started games weird pained my legs. And I thought, okay, maybe I've pulled something during one of the action scenes and I woke up one morning and I couldn't get out of bed and I couldn't walk.

Try to go to a hospital. They were like, they just kind of like palm me off. They didn't weren't really sure what it was. I went to the hospital back in my parents' neighborhood. The same hospital was born in when I was visiting my parents. Let me go and check get checked out

“there. They immediately thought it was happening and they were like, you need to be admitted to a”

hospital straight away. I remember saying, oh, to have no film extort was right now. And they said, you're in a very dangerous situation right now. And I'll explain to you what's happening, but you need to be hospitalized immediately. And I just felt like, what's happening to me? It's my life kind of falling apart before my eyes. I ended up spending two and a half months in hospital. I was unable to walk. I went down to just under 50 kilos. Wow.

A hundred pounds. I couldn't lift my arms. I couldn't walk. And yeah, it was kind of going to stroke you every day. A weird thing happens when your life falls apart like that. When you're confronted with your complete lack of control, it's really humbling. You realize, if I don't even control my own body, then maybe everything that I do have is a gift. I remember being in hospital, forget going back to film the rest of Star Wars, forget having a career ever being able to walk again.

“I remember being sat there and seeing like a pigeon sat on the window sill of this NHS hospital.”

And being almost moved to tears with bite's beauty. It sounds maybe sounds crazy, but maybe you can really go and say, well, you're just like, man, I did nothing to deserve that pigeon coming to visit me. I get to see up close. Pigeons are actually amazing. They're like a little bit green and red and you're getting seen the sunlight shine off of me. This thing that I'd taken for granted I was just absolutely blown away by this animal, this wild animal that was there. And I felt

this sense of such humility and gratitude and I've always believed ever since then. It's when

you're brought to your knees that you're halfway towards praying. It brings you closer to the love in the universe. And I went on a real journey and that's when I kind of really started meditating in earnest. I had this kind of crazy, crazy journey where I had to kind of almost

God was a universe for saying, you're all this stuff that you want. It's like happening for you now, right? Make sure you appreciate it. Don't take it for granted. You know, it was I was being taught gratitude just before being given the gift. My friends, it takes to me like, bro, I've just seen the stars for us, man. Like, you're going to be in stars. Yeah. I'm in a hospital desperately trying

“to get the nurses attention because I can't get up to go to toilet and on a wet bed. My life is”

just it couldn't be more different to what people are perceiving it to be. It was something about that experience made me want to start telling work from a personal place and the reason for that is that I felt a lot of shame around it. I felt a deep sense of shame and you know,

I've never really talked about it publicly. Now, but oh, if anyone else going to that right now

wanted to kind of share that and offer that as an experience because I felt this kind of weird shame and I felt this critical inner voice coming out that was like, you deserve this. This is what you should be. You thought you belong up here? No, you're getting straight back down. This is this is your fate. How dare you think it could be happy you have the things you want. And all this shame and all this kind of like this really venomous voice was coming out. And I was like,

actually, this is the thing that's killing me. The only way to heal myself of that voice is by owning it is owning my experience, losing like the shame around my experience, losing my

“shame around who I am. That's what Muggle Mogli is about. That's what Bay is about because I believe”

you know, what happened to me was a kind of autoimmune condition, right? An autoimmune condition is when the body attacks itself. And I know we both pick fans of that book, the body keeps the

score. You know, I was my belief that I wasn't with myself. The my critical inner voice was so

out of control. That was always attacking myself, beating myself over the stick so much that in a way my body turned on itself. I mean, I told this story jokingly before about one about Celia, which is a two years after I had finished filming the night of, I'd still get up in the middle of the night, go to a bathroom and start running scenes again. This is the show has come out. I wanted Amy for this role. It's done, but I should have moved on with life. I was

still in the back of my head. It's like not good enough. You know, good enough. It's embarrassing. How did you think that was going to get back up there? Do it again. Wow. So I had this voice to

meet. And my is my belief that that critical inner voice led me to that hospital bed. And I had to

look it in the eye and say, "No more shame, man." No more shame. I'm going to own this.

“I'm going to create work from this. And that's what sound of metal was. That's when”

Muggle Mogli was coming from that direct experience in the universe brought me sound of metal, which is also about an eye. It's going through health crisis. And it was like, no, you're not done with it. You've got to go back there. You've got to make work from this place. Yeah, man. I have long deep history with this critical voice and this shame and I really think it can kill you, man. It's not something that I've done with. But I think that critical inner voice, just,

he's not the guy in the Muggle phone. But he's a guy who's always going to be at the party. These may, if I'm lucky, he's at the corner of the party. Joy is essential and it's also elusive. You can't order it. You can't borrow it or simply hope it in the life. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, how to copy. Together, guys,

we'll have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. And our tame legend, sports icons, wellness experts, and everyday people will share how they find, allow, and experience joy. And I'll offer some of my own tips and takes on seeking a more balanced and harmonious life. If you're craving inspiration, support, and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Joy after a breakup,

Listen to Joy 101 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the new news? We've created our own podcast. Oh, hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. For us, people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We've created this trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we, how do we actually

“come up with a name? Hey, Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about”

what we should call it. And oh, we were thinking, I'm originally calling it one of the early

names of our band before Jonas Brothers. Well, this is how you guys remember going down. Yes,

I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast. We could call in and say, hey, Jonas, and then I broke down in my little note pad. Hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title. Oh, the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to hey, Jonas, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just listen, we don't care where you hear it.

As hard as it may be. Talk to me about the lowest moment, the worst day of going through that time in hospital because those are the moments that we all have experienced rock bottom. But those

are the moments you never hear people talk about because they're scary. Yeah. And and I feel like,

when I'm hearing you talk about them, like, sounds like you were dealing with a lot. For something mental to become physically that deabilities, when you're a fit young man, healthy man, in general, like that means there was there was a real war within yourself as you rightly said it. Talk to me as much as you can about that. I was alone at night in the hospital and they were pumping me full of a lot of steroids intravenously and stories keep you up. And I couldn't sleep

and I just felt completely alone. Whatever was going on with me, it was resistant to treatment. So I got a tiny bit better and then it went. It was going south and it started sensing that maybe there was some it might be affecting my heart and it might be affecting my ability to breathe. And it was certainly was affecting my ability to swallow. I remember this because the people on set a stove was God bless them. They carried on sending me food to the hospital and I was having

trouble swallowing it. And I was like, am I going to make my way out of this? Am I going to die here?

“It's what I started asking myself and I started talking to God. And I remember that rock bottom”

moment. Again, like I said, when you put it to your knees, just when you're halfway to praying, it was that moment of total helplessness that I started talking to God and I said, if you please give me a chance, if you please let me live, I promise you as much as I can, I will give. I want to give. And what I remember that was and I said, like, I just feel, I haven't emptied myself yet. You know, I've got more to give. And I remember just pleading

with God and just the tears. Just stream it up at face and just saying, yeah, if you just let me live, if you let me get through this, I promise you, I will empty myself and try and give from whatever you've given me. And it was incredibly scary. And the next morning I remember they said, they said that they might have to start a really intensive kind of chemo for me. God, man. I mean, that's like, is a harrowing time like in your life. Like, that's like just

when I hear about it, because I, I, not, it wasn't life-threatening, but my version of the mental turning in the physical was I developed, while I was among I developed polyps in my throat. And so these get on your vocal cords and people generally get it from, like, vocal exhaustion or lack of

“vocal rest or some sort of vocal disruption. And I think for us in the monastery it was mantra. It was”

chanting and you know, and and I do not have a singing voice for whatever it's worth. But I think my vocal range is pretty limited. And I was probably straining. I don't even know how it happened. That's the physical version, but we all know there's walk from what we're talking about. There's so much more to it, whether it's a lack of expression, a lack of authentic communication of where

got them lasered off. It's, it's, it's pretty like, you know, you don't feel it, you're today, it's not. Like I said, it's not life-threatening, but like, for months after you're drinking from a straw, because you can't eat proper food. And you can't talk. So I have a white ward. And I remember moving him back in my parents at the time, because I couldn't be in the monastery. And I literally write to my mum, like, what I could eat, water, whatever it was. And I'm literally

carrying a white ward around my neck, basically, and just writing stuff to my family, because I

can't say anything. And at that time, I'm like, I give speeches at colleges. I give talks to the

“tempo. I'm, I'm like, speaking is my fear. Like, that's what I do. And it's all gone. And it's disappeared.”

And I can't even say anything. Like, I'm writing words on a white ward. And I remember feeling very similarly to what you're saying about seeing that pigeon praying to God. Like, I can relate to it. And again, like, mine was not life-threatening. It wasn't, you know, there's a difference we're not speaking and not walking. Nobody's profound, because it's your, your gift turns to your curse. And it's like the thing that you are blessed with, which is this ability to communicate,

and this desire, this purpose you have, that is the thing that's taken from correct. And so how

is that affected the way that you, I mean, did that just make you even more motivated to speak

and to choose your words and think about your words? Yeah, I had to go to a vocal coach to train and all of that kind of stuff. And they said that you would get your, you know, your natural voice would come back. He came back softer. I'd lost the raspiness and the depth of my voice. I sound different. Now I sound back to normal if anything. Maybe it's a bit better now. So, oh God, take it. But like, at the time, it was like, I was like, God, I'm going to have to learn how to talk

“again. Like that's how we found. And what it did for me was a few things. I remember talking to”

one spiritual guided the time. And I said to myself, I can't speak to God out loud anymore. Like, I can't hear myself talk to God. I can't chant. I can't mantra such a big part of Eastern tradition. I can't chant out loud. And you're meant to chant out loud and hear the spiritual sacred sound. Like, that's our practice. And he goes to me. He goes, God's teaching you to chant with your heart. Like, and I was like, God, like that, at that time, I just remember that, like, hit

me. It was like, yeah, you think, well, you think, you talk to God out loud. Like, you think, that's what God listens to. He's like, God's listening to this. Like, God knows what's going on in here. It's got nothing to do with sound and voice. And I was like, wow, that's that's huge to learn to talk to God with my heart. Like, what does it even mean? Yes. And then at the same time, it's what you said, where it was like, okay, now that my voice is starting to come back, how am I

going to respect the fact that I have a voice? Like, to not take it for granted, to be like, how can you feel that this ease with which we're talking right now and we're communicating. And I can hear you can hear me when that goes away. God, life feels colorless and, you know, it loses so much value. And so, again, and, you know, we were talking about this offline as well. Like, when you, of course, you forget all this. You start taking all the gifts for granted again. You probably

have to do in a way to try and kind of move through the trauma. But I don't know if you have moments

“where you remember that and you just sink into that deep sense of humility and gratitude and”

humility is the work. I mean, you're taking me back there. I don't think I've actually thought about this. I don't even, I don't think I've talked about it publicly to be honest myself. I don't, I can't remember if I've actually talked about it. And I'm being reminded of your experience, like, your, your experience triggering me going, yeah, like that, you know, those intense. That was intense and, and I don't, you know, but all of that to say with all of yours, talked to me about

where does the shame come from going through something like that and they're not wanting to share it. Because I think there's the pain of going through something traumatic and there's, then there's the pain of communicating it to a group of people who may or may not actually understand what the hell you just went through. Yeah. But talk to me about where was the shame for you in wanting to share that and what kept it in for so long? I will, but can I first tell you something about your voice?

Yeah. I love your voice. But here's the thing, when I sometimes am walking down the street,

it doesn't happen to be a lot, but it happens to me enough times I want to mention it. Sometimes people stop me and they say, say, I'm on the phone and whatever they've heard me talking they go, so I should tell you, you sound exactly like Jay Shetty. That is hilarious. I think there's a confidence. I take it as a compliment, bro. You've made an amazing M.C. I think you've got a great, you've got a great voice for that. We need to help you make steps in the past. Come on, ladies.

So I just want to give your voice as flowers. Yeah, the shame, I think the show is about this idea of wanting to be James Bond. I want to do that. I mean, you doesn't. Or if not exactly that

and that is about being this kind of invulnerable powerful alpha male. Wherever that means, although hilariously, the alpha male in a wolf pack is the animal that lets the kids be up the most, you know, and it's like the most chill and the least aggressive, right? But we have these ideas in our culture. And I guess I didn't want to. I already felt like I don't fit the mold, for all the reasons we've already discussed to be experienced growing up. I don't want another

strike against me of people somehow thinking I'm weak, you know, or I'm fragile. All right, whereas now I look at it as like, why do you feel like I showed a lot of resources and strength and grit, it means why I'm physical, you know, teaching yourself to walk again or lift your arms or whatever that that takes strength. And I can say that now, the time I just saw the glass half empty of it. And I thought, I don't even want anyone to think that weak, that I'm broken, that I'm not up to

“the mark. And in a way, I actually think that there's some truth in that, I think the culture”

has shifted a little bit more, you know, I think because of spaces like this man that you've created and other people have created, where we can talk and celebrate our vulnerability is a bit more. You know, I mean, I mean, it's talking about this right now, my body right now is kind of like going, oh, God, yeah, I just say all this that I do all this. But I also feel a bit lighter. It's that thing of digging inside like I said, it's an offering. You know, if there's someone going through

something like this, just watching this, if it normalizes their experience, if it makes them feel less alone, that's beautiful, you know, and I want to share that. I think it was that really, I think it was kind of my, again, it was the distance between that public and the private self. And I felt that if my public self gets too close to my reality, it'll fall apart again.

“Hmm. Yeah, well said, yeah, no, I really believe you're sharing that, especially”

talking about perception in that externally everyone can be like, you're winning, you're Chris, been amazing. One M is Oscar, you know, all this stuff and it's like to actually go away in a minute, even him, like there's there's stuff he's going through, not only is affecting mentally, physically, and that mental physical connection that I want people to make here, which I know you do too, which is this idea that a lot of what we're going through physically

is coming from some sort of emotional block, mental block. And in Bet, you visualized that as this

severed pig's head, which is this Patrick Stewart voice, severed pig's head. So yes, the critical

inner voice in Bet is a severed pig's head. It was sent to the family as a racist attack. And it's about, I guess, how we can internalize the criticism of us internalize the prejudice. So it starts to become almost like his best friend and for me for a long time, my critical inner voice was something I did want to lose. I was worried that if I make peace with it, we'll turn the volume down on that too much, I'll get lazy, I'll get complacent. I remember even when we won an Oscar

for our short film, it's so funny. It was almost like the Oscar was looking at me going, you made shit. The kind of elation lasted as long as me going there, collecting it, going back stage, going to toilet, coming back and sitting down again. By the time I said that, in fact,

I would say my critical inner voice was an all-time higher when I was sat there holding that

screen. I had, because it was almost like a survival mechanism. My brain was going, well, that voice, that part of my brain was going, don't put your feet up now. Don't think you can get complacent, don't kick back. I have programmed you to strive, not to savor. And so now we're going to really crack the whip. It was just going crazy. I remember sitting there in that seat, having the most aggressively critical thoughts to myself. It was like, out of control. But in a show, it's played by

seven pigs head. I want you to know. There was a moment, long moment, I was like, it has to be j-shade. We ended up getting so Patrick's true. I thought it has to be a super established actor, one of the greats, so it makes sure my character feeling secure. Actually, how many of you might evil twit? I mean, there's not this slight resemblance, maybe. I was like, yeah, what if it should

be j-shade? J should be my critical inner voice. That would be hilarious. That would have been

so funny. I know, Patrick Stewart was the right choice. It was one of those moments in the show where

“you're like, what? It's such a surprise. Right. Yeah. Talk to me about that, because I think what you”

just identified is the hyperformers and overachieveers curse, where the inner critic is what

interviewed, whether it's basketball players, whether it's tennis players, whether it's F1 drivers,

“they don't say the same thing, basically. The athletes who I think are playing at the levels where”

every inch counts in every minute matters, they all have this crazy inner critic, which they have to learn what to do with it, because in the moment, they have to believe that this point is the only thing that matters. And then as soon as they win or lose the point, they have to believe that point doesn't matter at all. Well, because that's the switch there. So that their code switch,

or that, and that's, is that. It's like, when I'm playing this point, this is the most important

point in the world. And as soon as the point's over, whether I win or lost the point, that point's irrelevant. So you need the inner critic and the inner cheerleader. Totally. You've got to basically be able to toggle between them both. Yeah, it's, I don't want to believe that the inner critic is the jet fuel. I want to believe that it's like one of the engines, right? But there's got to be that other engine, because you know, I also feel the, yes, I feel like the inner critic or that

fear of failure, the possibility of shame, all these things can drive us. But I think it can also make us quite tense. And I think our best performances come when we're in a state of flow. And that is about like you're saying too tight to lose. That is also about being kind of loose. That's

about the joy. It's about openness and receptivity and play and curiosity. Yeah. All those things

of the critic does not really give us. And so yeah, for me, it's like on that mixing desk of the voices in my head. You don't want to hear the voices in my head. There's a lot of them. You're one of them. But I'm trying to just find that right balance and find a right moment to bring up that cheerleader versus the critic. I'm glad you said that, because I would agree with you, and I would encourage people to go there, especially if you're a high achiever, a high performer, or even if you

“you have goals. And you think the only way to get there is to make yourself feel bad and beat yourself”

up. And to actually go, well, that isn't the way I want to get there. There is a way of getting there. That isn't there. That just seems to be the most common way that a lot of successful people

have got there. But then they didn't like where they got either. I think you can get you to a place,

but then it will kill you. Yeah. Exactly. You know, people would whip horses to like make the run faster. You're going to kill that horse to somewhere. Yeah. You're going to really start to get exhausted. Yeah. That's a great vision. I'm trying to find a way of something else kind of taking over. And honestly, I kind of feel like, or you talk about before with kids, that's been a great teacher for me. You know, play. Just on a really basic level. Yeah. Play the joy of that, the curiosity of

it, as you're not being controlled. That's been a great teacher for me. Not least because actually, I think kids, you can't control them really. I mean, they humble you every day, right? They taught you kind of, you know, that thing where you don't raise your kids, they raise you. Yeah. So I don't know. I think that that's kind of something I'm trying to pass the baton from the critic to the, to the chili. That was the, all to the child. Yeah, to the child. I like that. Yeah,

there's this beautiful quote from George Bernard sure that I love what he said. We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing. And I love that. Like,

“it's just, it's so good because I'm like, yeah, like, that's why we feel old is because we stop”

playing. We stop being curious. We stop marvelling at the greatness of a Velcro shoe that simplicity. And that's why I was, I was looking into it actually because that's why as we get old, I'm sure you feel this way too. Time just flies. Every adult I talked to they're like, yeah, God, time just going fast apparently that is a proven fact that our brains subjectively experience time differently as we get older. Yes. So in terms of subjectively the spread of our life

and how it feels to our brains is 50% of our life is lived between the age of zero and eight years old which is crazy. That's like half of it because of how a day feels when you're a little kid, how expansive and huge it can feel. And how quick a year can feel towards the tail end. So yeah, as you're starting to feel more and more conscious of time and it's passage. Like, what is that doing for you? Is that just mean streamlining and focusing on the things you really want to or

that how you managing with that. I want put on my life. I listen to Steve Jobs's thumb for commencement speech every day for nine months. Well, in my opinion, it's the best speech ever given because you're also new is going to die. So I feel like when someone knows they're going to die, is that death awareness meditation, right? It's a big part of the kind of, yeah, when a strict tradition in Eastern philosophy. Yeah, absolutely. And it's like, every word

mattered. Like, he didn't, that wasn't performance. If you, if you see him do it, he also just reads it like deadpan. Like there's no performance. There's no emphasis. There's no

there's a, so I listen to that. And there's a line in it that just goes like something like,

and I'll butcher it. Some people should listen to the real thing. But he literally says something like, every few days, if I check him with myself and I ask myself, if I look in the mirror, like, am I doing what I want to do if this was my last day? And if after three or four days, the answer isn't, this is what I should be doing. Then I know I've got something to change. And I'm like, I don't think we can all live like that all the time. I think I think there's, you know,

people have responsibility, he's in pressures and whatever. But I think there's truth to the idea of, did you call the person that you would call if it was your last day? Did you talk to your partner in the way you would if it was the last time you were going to talk to them? Did you look at your

kid before you went out to work in a way that you would want them to know was how much you loved them?

Like, I think all those things do matter. That applies even if you've got to go to a job every day and you've got to say hello to people, like, did you behave with everyone in the way that you

“want to be remembered? I think that is important to me. And I think it's streamlining, I think it's”

focusing on things, all those things, but really it's more about it's less about what I do and it's more about who I am and in that what is the spirit of my being? I've noticed versions of that were like in order to become successful, I've had to be more technical, I've had to be more strategic, I've had to be more organised, I've had to be whatever the words are. And then I go, I'm just a guy who loves the heart, like, that's why I am at the core of like, I'm just a guy who just wants to, like,

love and be love, like, that's why I am at my essence and who are the people who can take me back to that in this crazy world where I have to be all these other versions of myself in order to do the

thing. People who say, like, what's your favorite place? And I'm like, I'm never looking for my favorite

place. I'm looking for my favorite people because as long as I'm with my favorite people, it doesn't matter where I am. And so I'm looking for people actively, always that keep taking me back to that place within my heart and can do it quicker, more beautifully, more gracefully, more elegantly. And I find I'm some of them are old friends that have had for 20, 25 years. And some of them are new people I just met last year. People who can make you more yourself. Yeah. Yeah. People who can make you forget

yourself. Yeah. People who go beyond the form of civil. Yeah. Yeah. The person who's not getting you to play up to your avatar or your, you know, and so I'm looking, I'm always looking to cut, not collectors and there's, I don't need a million of those people. You've got to find a few people that you just drop in. You're nervous system comes down, you know, and the active mindset which is so important, it's interesting to say that because like, you know, we're in LA right

now. And I had a very kind of like, you're making me think about this because I had this narrative where I was like, I don't like it any. And you actually making me think about this, it's like, there are periods of time, we're not adored LA. And the thing that was surprising to me now is just before coming here, I was like, oh, I gotta go to LA man, being from London, like, walking, you know, not like driving and everything's spread out. And I was like, you don't see anyone and all these

kind of clichéed criticism, right? And yet, I walk on today in LA, I'm absolutely loving it because, um, with my wife, with my kid, I'm with family, you know, family has come to visit the house is full and suddenly like, being back as a kid surrounded by clapping oranges. Oh, whatever, it was just, it feels like that environment. It feels like home. And absolutely, it's a people man. It's the people that made the place 100% and, and yeah, I was kind of confronted with that

realization this morning. It was like, oh, yeah, I've just slipped into this kind of lazy narrative. It's like, it's not what it's about. Yeah. And the time piece, too, that you brought up,

“that I think is a really valuable thing is like, how much can I not try and fill time?”

And how much can I not try and be distracted? I find it hard like kind of doing nothing. Yeah. Something that is starting to help is reading. I'm very poorly read. No, I don't believe that really. Yeah, I kind of threw your work. I would like pick up a lot of things in like, um, listen to a lot of music, listen to podcasts, I watch talks, I go to talks, I talk to people, but I had like growing up crazy ADHD and I get to a lot of trouble at school. And now I look

back. I'm like, oh, of course, that's what that was. And, you know, there's loads of different ways in which that manifests. So sitting down to read a book was like torture. It was historically, again, the narrative. Oh, I don't read it. Read a car read recently, particularly being married to a novelist. That was like, this is a bit of a deal breaker. You need to be reading, but at least read my book. I was like, okay, I gotta sit down and do this. That is the thing that

“is allowing me to like sit and kind of do nothing. It's forgetting myself. You know what I mean?”

But I otherwise struggle with it. I can very easily fill time, create a new idea. Now let's progress

that you're also navigate? I had to set rules around it because I'm like that as well. I feel like

I'm a creative brain. I like, I like building stuff. I like playing with stuff. But I had to start just building real parameters around that where, and what do you mean, like, as if you don't work off to six p.m. Or just like, yeah, it's like, I won't think about work or be on my phone after six p.m. Because to me, that restaurant renewal is where the best ideas come out. Talking about flow state, I can't invent flow. I can't engineer it. I can't manufacture it. And so

for it to exist, I need to be in this lucid state where, with said something, that randomly allowed for me to be inspired at 8 p.m. and it came up, and that's fine. But I don't need to act on it immediately. I just need to let it breathe and let it sit. Letting it sit, best ideas come on the toilet seatbook. And the shower. And as far as we start taking our phones to the toilet, the toilet's now not the creative mecker used to be. But the shower, man.

The shower is always where you got. Yeah. And actually, just to give Elliot's flowers driving

has been great for me. I agree. In that sense, when you're just going on these long drives and

“you allow the thing to bubble up David Lynch to talk about in the fish, right?”

These fish that we just swim to the surface sometimes, if you can just allow the water to be still in up. If you're service, let's all trust the text with the train. That's us. 270 hours with zero complaining. They train under the hood. They train down in the pit. 270 hours means they're training's legit. It's the smart choice for smart folk and care for their steed. So trust the instant oil, change that starts with vowel. Now the lean instant oil change. Change wisely.

Joy is essential and it's also elusive. You can't order it. You can't borrow it or simply hope it into life. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, How To Copy. Together, guys, we'll have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. And our tame legend, sports icons, wellness experts, and everyday people will share how they find, allow,

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Hey, it's us, the Jonas brothers and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? We created our own podcast. Oh, hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to our people to do podcast. Pretty. Yeah, pretty wide range of podcast content. But this one's extra special. So how do we how do we actually come up with a name, hey, Jonas,

“guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. And”

oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. Well, this is how you guys remember going down. Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast. We could call in and say, hey, Jonas, and then I broke down on my little note pad. Hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title. Oh, I got it. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to hey, Jonas,

on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just listen, we don't care where you hear it. [Music] Briss, I want to do a set of questions for you that we've got that. Speak about everything we've been talking about, but we're going to do them as not rapid fire, but we're going to do them as

quick or fire. Yeah, quick or fire. Not loud and rambling fire. You know, no, no, you can give longer answers, but I want to kind of get some out from you. So what's the hardest mask you've had to take off? I think it was probably around my health. Yeah. You know, kind of letting people into the even it was happening. I was trying to keep people at a distance. I didn't want

people to see me like that. Yeah. Basically, I thought I was like, if I had my diet and I don't want

“people to remember me like this almost, you know. So I think it was that I think it was when I was”

at my most vulnerable, letting people in on what was happening and starting slowly share that. What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong? Different parts of me in every place that I go to. That's interesting, yeah. And I think a lot of people feel like that or create people feel like that I've learned to embrace that actually. I actually feel like having that slight outside as

well. But yeah, I mean, all the time. I mean, you know, I remember going to meet the Queen and

accidentally trying to fist bump her. That's so good. It was like a British film industry reception. Everyone lines up. She put her hand out like this from the angle that I was at. I thought she was going like this. I went like this. It's a security when like this and that I'm just going like this.

“You know, it was super weird. Yeah, I think so. I don't know man. Like there's all these kind of moments”

of feeling like a fish out of water that now I actually kind of like I quite enjoy being like, where am I? What is this? You know, some of you can laugh about later. Yeah, it's a bad story, too. I think so. Yeah. If you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went and you're probably not in the right place, David Bowie says this thing of is when you can't feel the bottom of

the swimming pool is you know you're in the right place, you know, slightly out of the depth working

you know. That's beautiful. I love that. That's one of the reasons why I've, I actually like living in LA because I'm reminded of my insignificant daily because it's so big. Because it's so big and I go to an event and I'm the least important person in the room and I love it because the only conversation I'll have is really meaningful one because the only person who's aware of me is someone who's connected to the kind of work I do. Well, and then that allows me to

bask in the glory of the rarity of that human and the interaction we just had. So I tried to belong to one person, then belong to a room or a place or a space because belonging to one person is kind of all we're looking for anyway. So when you meet one person and you go, oh God, we're even like, you know, we're from the same area like, you know, we know the same people like that to me and a busy big room is like pure joy that I know even the person winning on a ward on stages,

you've rightly just said, isn't even feeling. Yeah. And so it's not being celebrated that makes gives us joy. It's not belonging to a whole room that gives us joy. It's connected. It's one person that leads to you and you go, we're from the same place, we believe in the same things, we care about whatever, whatever that may be, or it had a really good debate with someone that engaged me in a really curious way and we don't agree, it can be so overwhelming in those rooms

can't it where like you're chatting to people and you feel that everyone's like looking over your shoulders, see if there's someone else to talk to and it's like pinball, social pinball, but finding a center in those rooms, finding a kind of a rooted place to drop into.

Yeah, that's the way to do it. Yeah, I always said to God, I'm like, I just want to meet the

“one person you want me to meet today and that's how I walk into a room. I love that. I always”

meet that person and it's always like, becomes a friendship or we have a great conversation and we don't talk every again or and it's just like, yeah, God, I'm here for you. So you just introduce me to the one person you want to introduce me to. Yeah, that kind of carries me. So this one's a good one. So when was the last time you tried to people, please? Isn't it sound like a small thing? But clothes matter to me a lot. Me too, man. I grew up in a women market where they sold all the

fake design and clothes. Yeah, so it was all about that. We'd go buy some and we'd sell them and we'd go, you know, and try and buy some real ones and I don't know, we just kind of obsessed with it. You know, as teenagers, trying to wear the mask or having the costume or find worth, whatever it is, now I see it more as I kind of express to myself. Recently, I was going to do a talk show or something and I said, I shouldn't wear that outfit. That's to me in a weird way. I was like,

that's I need to meet the audience where they're at. Yeah, maybe they haven't seen a show like this, or I relate to someone like me from my background. I'm doing something maybe talking. Like, you know, it's middle America or something. And I was, I tried to dilute down what I would wear and who I would be. And luckily, when I was wearing a thing, I was like, who the hell is this? Why don't wait, what do you think? And I took it off fire, remember? And I remember actually in that moment being quite

surprised, it's like, oh, that's still really, that's just, they're really strong instinctive. Yeah, to do that, to edit and sense it myself in that way. Sounds like a small thing, but do you think

“though you only get away with being able to make that choice when you're successful? I think”

chicken and egg, I think the people who become most successful are the people who most unapologetically themselves. I love that. Well, great answer. Yeah. Because the specific and the honesty and the authenticity is what people are attracted to. It just feels real, you know? That's the narrative again we tell ourselves. Oh, when I'm successful, then I'll be myself. When people accept me, I'll be me. If you be you, then people accept you. Yeah, so well said,

man, so well said. I feel like before we go to the final five, which is our rapid fire. I feel like we have to give a bunch of shout-outs to places in North and North West London, there we grow up around because we got to go niche. We were talking about this before. We were like some deep times. We've done a whole interview about North, North, West London, and no one else would have got us apart from our hometown, which we love. So this is for the 15 people that I know exactly

on the healing road. Yeah. Kibabish is literally a place that I shout out on my last rap song.

Do you know what, when I said that to you earlier, I didn't even know that. Just did a track or we good with Cassas did, it's on the Bay soundtrack at the name check Kibabish, specifically, and the amount of people from my past who reached out and texted me in that. Bro, Kibabish, remember those days when we used to go Kibabish, the garlic mayo, my mouth is watering as I'm talking. It's actually the none. It's the freshness of the none.

Shout out Kibabish, healing road. Yeah. Okay, that's a good one. What about, will you say, and it'll say in George's, these are two shopping malls in Harrow in North West London. Yeah. Whichever one the girl I was dating wanted to go to. Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, yeah, it's like, whichever.

All right, so that's a good one. Yeah, that's very good. I was actually saying, as again, to shout out

this area in London, it says, "North West London, we have all the best jays. We have Jason, Jay Paul, and Jay Shay. And that's it. It's the Holy Trinity, man. It's the Holy Brown Trinity. And then we have risen dead Patel. We guess we're also, they're holding down a four rainers lane, satry town. So, but he's interesting. It's just kind of a little pocket corner of the

“world. There's this, there's a super multi-cultural, you know, because of that, I think it's like a real”

creative hotbed and you get some interesting stuff happening there. Yeah, Anthony Joshua, he's actually is from what for a day Jay. Yeah, exactly. Sitting down with you is like, it is sitting down with an old friend like it feels that way. It's the same man. The schools you went to, the people we grow up around, friends of family, but Rich,

you've been amazing to talk to you today. Honestly, this is an absolute honor to talk to you.

I've been beyond my expectations to get your openness, your honesty, your vulnerability. The show of bait is a winner already. Can't wait for more people to watch it. I can't wait for you. I mean, I know you got a digger coming out this year. You've got, you know, Hamlet that's out already. Like, it's, I feel like, you know, just keeps becoming more and more your year for actually putting out real expansion in brother. I appreciate trying to receive it. There we go.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. But Rich, we end every interview the final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence. Maximum. Oh, God. Here we go. So, Riz, these are your final five. Brought to you by state fund. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Idris Elba once said to me, categorize yourself not. Explain why I did a glass ceiling on my career in the UK. He was like, you should go to America.

I'm like, bro, what are they going to do with the guy like me over there? You don't do nothing. I'm this. They don't have that. They have that. I'm not this. Anyway, categorize yourself not my friend. And actually, when you do that, you're doing other people's work for them. It's about the limitations people place on you, how we internalize them. And then we perpetuate that narrative. And going on, this is my name. I'm this flavor. There's so many different sides to who you are.

“I told him that recently and he was like, I was like, bro, do you remember that conversation? He was like,”

man, I'm in rear of that. So I'm like, great. Thanks, Robert. But it's a throwaway moments, right? When people kind of like, see you differently to how you used to be seen. Did you feel that? Like, was that hard? I know the representation of conversations overplayed. I know those conversations have happened. I've just like, you know, making it as a brown man in Hollywood. You've done that. But what is the reality of that? Because we say that and then you're like, well, wait, I'm going to

actually know I haven't done that. Because I think that there's a reality that for women, for people of color, for people who are differently abled, there is a lot more resistance. I definitely do feel like sometimes after work, you know, twice as hard to get half as far. But I'm also kind of starting to feel like that is gives my journey more meaning. To me, but I know for a fact, also for many others, you know. And then actually, I think more and more friction is what gives life

it's meaning. You know, you order a meal on delivery route. It does not taste the same as you've taken that time to cook that for yourself. Shout out delivery. I'm not saying that I don't do that. But I'm just kind of like, I just feel like it's what's given my journey. It's it's meaning

“for me and I know for others. So I wouldn't I wouldn't change it. I think for a long time I'd say,”

I wish I could swap that out. We should make that different. But I don't feel that way anymore. What advice would you give to someone who is a person of color differently, a board who is a woman agenda that may have any of these experiences? What would you say to them? Because I think the bitterness, the pain, the rejection, real is real. It's real. It's justified. It's not imagined. I don't want to cast like anyone who's going through that. It's hard. I would say, you know,

my experience is like the gift and the curse are usually the same thing. You losing your voice has made you so conscious of what you're communicating and how and the words you're choosing. There's so many examples I can think of in my own journey where the thing that I thought was

the thing about you that's different, isn't obstacle in certain ways. But it's also the key. And I would say lean into the specificity of your experience of who you are. You know, I went to Oxford University and felt very out of place there on many different levels. And my experience there taught me something which is actually, because I was thinking about

quitting after the first month, I was like, what the hell am I doing here? Kind of had a mental health,

kind of breakdown almost over there and felt super depressed, super kind of like an alien. But I kind of feel like now the place where you stick out. If you can, if you can find a support,

“if it doesn't hurt you, the place that you stick out is a place where you should kind of stick it out.”

You have an opportunity of changing the temperature in that room of bringing other people into that room. I love that man. Yeah, it reminds me of the stoic statement of the obstacle is the way. Oh, wow. The idea of like the obstacle is the way. There is no other way. And so that obstacle, whether it's how you set up or you're background or your uniqueness. Yeah. All right, question number two,

what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? It was one of the first cast in the

directors I've ever met said. Hey, nice to meet you. Just be careful about your eyes. You can look a bit of a psychopath sometimes. Because I do this. I'm getting excited and I start going like this. I want to watch this interview back. I did it. I did it. I did it. I misunderstood my wife. Am I doing the craziest? I think don't think about the crazy eyes. Okay, but it just may be very self-conscious. And actually, weirdly, I remember for a couple of years

after that. I like to make this and everything. Go on watch some of my stuff from like the early ortsbrow. I'm like, that's brilliant. That's very good. Have been guys. I can be a get animated. It's stuff. You know, learn to try and lean into that. Yeah, I love that. Question number three,

“you mentioned your wife a few times. What's been the biggest lesson that you've learned from your wife?”

When I see the path of my wife has been on how she's at a fight every step of the way the dedication, the devotion it has taken for her to tell her story with such a specificity and and reach the world with it. I think I've kind of understood what devotion means, devotion to her path, her creativity is a kind of prayer, is a kind of devotion, devotion and seeing how she is with our child. I think she just operates from a like a deep place,

you know. I think the biggest thing she's taught me that and also you can never buy enough

phone charges. She will take them all and lose them all. You know, this is the way they say the first thing about someone that you find cute ends up being the thing that's like, kill me now. We actually met because she had lost her phone charge. No. I was in a cafe in New York, a laptop charge. I was in a cafe in New York, just writing a script or whatever. She came in on the phone, laptops only on the communal table. She sits down opposite me, pulls out her laptop,

starts emptying out her bag looking for her charger. It's like chaos. And I was like, can I? Can I help you? You want to borrow my charger? After six years of marriage, bro, that hasn't changed. She's still borrowing my charger. Now I'm trying to hide the charger from her. That's the reason that's the reason that's the reason that's the reason that was that. Did you know she was like, no, no, no. I might have thought that maybe for a minute. No, I know her. I just know. It's like a

“vortex of charges. No, but I'm just kind of trying to downplay it and talk around, but I think,”

you know, my wife has taught me so much, but the word that comes to my mind is devotion, devotion to a purpose, to a journey. Yeah, to a path. I love that my beautiful answer. Question number four. What do you pray to God for today? I went to Mecca recently and you do this thing where you kind of try and pray for everyone you know by name. And I saw it realizing that everything ends up kind of co-hearing around like three basic ideas. I pray for people's

health. I pray for people's beliefs provide for themselves and their loved ones in a way that allows them to have dignity and feel good about it. And the third thing that I was pray for everyone is for them to be brought closer to their purpose. And I say, God, bring me close to my purpose because that's a way of bringing me closer to myself as you intend. And also closer to you, your purpose, I think your path is something that is extremely personal, but also divine. And so

alignment to our path to our purpose. There's this phrase in Islam, the Sadat, the Al-Mustokrin, which is the straight path. When you people interpret that in different ways, but for me, it's

your rosy, rosy, your ability to provide and your path. Have you been to Maca before, was that first time? No, I went once when I was 15, but I was a different experience. I went all that and actually, you know, from a more spiritually skeptical place, you know, how life throws you around and you kind of ask questions. And we went this December and both me and my wife were, went with openness. And I would say, you know, we are Muslim. And we have spirituality in our lives,

but we also feel often that organized religion. And the way that it's used, it's definitely

brought some skepticism into our hearts as well. And going there was incredible. And I would say,

it was actually just a physical act with, of walking around in a circle with all these people from all over the world, everyone dressed the same. Everyone's mask kind of stripped away There's just such a sense of oneness there. It was really kind of beautiful. And I promise myself, I've got trouble this feeling. But of course, as soon as you're on that plane, you're like, back on your phone, yeah. But that was, it was powerful, yeah. It's interesting as you're talking

about that, because I've been thinking about this idea a lot about how modern society has made everything about upwards and forwards. And actually, when you look at spiritual traditions, everything's circumambulating. Beautiful. And even in India, when you go to a holy place, you

you circle it. Or in a wedding, when you walk around. You fire. So when you start looking at life,

that way versus that way. And love it. It's just a fascinating like mindset shift of like,

“"Oh, what if we saw life is cyclical and not as linear?" And everything we just talked about today.”

I love what you're saying. I think of it as a spiral. A spiral, yeah, yeah, right? Yeah. Because you kind of retread the same rounded life. But hopefully, from a more elevated perspective each time, I like that. You know, and epiphany kind of works in that way as well. And those leaps that you have of understanding, if they're usually kind of not by going to, but retressing your steps. Yeah. And feeling different or wanting something to feel different. I like the ascension aspect that

you just added. That's not just round around around. It's short. So there is some ascension,

which is just beautiful. Uh, fifth and final question we asked is every guest has ever been on the show.

I'm really excited for your answer, actually. You can think about it for as long as you want. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? I want to be off my phone more. But we're all locked in because everyone's on their phone. I'll put it down if everyone else does. I just want everyone to be off their phone. Everyone want to go back to dumb phones. And here's why that I go through periods of time where I put my phone

away totally. I put it in a little safe and I lock it away for like 12 hours or 20 hours or, you know, before we had a kid, my wife would go away and she as a novelist, she has to do that kind of deep work, you know, you can't kind of dip in and out of it. The way she does it at least, she can't. And so the phone would go away for like five days. We'd like check into our hotel, give it to them and say, we'll take this moment check out. Time feels totally different.

My experience of the day feels totally different. The thoughts in my mind are totally different.

“I'm a little bit closer to being obsessed with the Velcro on the shoe again, you know what I mean?”

I would love to just do that. I don't know what that means about this show though, Jay, and we get to see it. Maybe we'll have some, just a certain hours in the day. Yeah, yeah, we can all go back home. No, that's a great answer. I love it. I feel like that's that's the crux of all. Resummed, bait, uh, excited for everything that comes from this day. I hope we stay in touch. Yeah, it was been such a joy to do this with you and I hope you felt you got to share everything

and anything you wanted to talk about. Absolutely. And thank you for creating this space for me and for other people. It's a very enriching space and empowering one where we can just be vulnerable in our way and share. So thank you. Thank you, man. Thank you. If you're feeling inspired by this episode, you won't want to miss my conversation with Wicked Cynthia Arriva. We are afraid to let a person go and we need to be okay with things people go. We don't know what path people are walking on

when they walk into our lives. We might just be a stepping stone in their path just like stepping

“stones in their life. Joy is essential and it's also elusive, but now there's a new and exciting”

way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101, it's a new podcast hosted by me, How To Copy. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on air chats. Open your free iHeart Radio App Search, Joy 101, and listen now. Joy 101 with How To Copy is presented by CVS.

We created our own podcast called. Hey Jonas, we invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it.

“We just contributed to our people to do podcasts. We used to ask other people questions because”

we're sick and tired of being an ask questions. Well, sick and tired of just a strong way to put it,

but you know, tired and sick, tired and sick. Listen to hey Jonas on the iHeart Radio App,

“Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen, we don't care where you hear it.”

This isn't iHeart Podcast. Guarantee Human.