A Silicon Valley Satire That Feels Uncomfortably Close to Reality

to money." [laughter] [music playing]

“Hi everyone, from New York Magazine and the VoxMedia podcast network.”

This is on with Cara Swisher and on Cara Swisher.

My guests today are the executive producers and the star of "The Audacity." It's a dark comedy series from AMC that explores the lives of taxieos and their relationships with their families therapists and enablers. The show follows Duncan Park, the ambitious arrogant and often delusional CEO of a data-mining company in Silicon Valley.

He's a wannabe tech-tighten who's set on joining the billionaire ranks of the Valley's powerful elite. Unlike real-life counterparts, his ego greed and insecurities help push him towards his goal, and also get in the way. Emmy Award winner Jonathan Glitzer is the audacity's executive producer and showrunner.

He's also written and produced for succession, bad sisters and better call Saul. Billing Magnuson stars in the series as Duncan Park, and the show is executive produced by Gina Mingachi, whose credits include "Killing Eve" and "Orphan Black." I interviewed Jonathan Billy and Gina live last Sunday on the box media podcast stage at South by Southwest in Austin, Texas.

I was excited to talk to him because this is a really good series. It's sort of the next version of Silicon Valley, which I was an advisor to, but it's a lot darker and a lot more realistic about the many of these people and the damage they do. In this case, instead of adorable people, the principles in this series are more villainous.

“And I think that's appropriate for the time.”

And a quick note before we get into it, I have a new series from CNN called Kara Swisher wants to live forever, premiering April 11th. We watch the trailer ahead of this conversation at South by Southwest and you'll hear me make a few references to it during the interview. It was a fun conversation, so stick around.

Support for this show comes from Odo. Running a business takes everything you've got, and a lot of the tools out there that are supposed to make your life easier just aren't great at talking to each other, and that means you end up having to toggle between a dozen different apps and services just to keep the lights on.

Enough of that. Now there's Odo. The all-in-one fully integrated platform that actually might help you get it all done. Thousands of businesses have made the switch so why not you. Try Odo for free at Odo.com.

That's Odo.com. Support for the show comes from SoFi. That's face it, college is expensive, and how you pay for it really matters. That's where SoFi comes in. SoFi helps you refinance at rates as low as 4.24% APR, potentially saving big by lowering

your monthly payment. You can even customize variable rates to meet your financial goals, all with no penalties or fees required. Check your rate in two minutes with no impact to your credit score.

Over 580,000 members have already refinanced more than $50 billion with SoFi.

Visit SoFi.com/boxpod to see how much you could save. That's SoFi.com/boxpod. SoFi student loans are originated by SoFi Bank and a member of FDIC, additional terms and conditions apply, and I'm a less 696891. When is the AI bubble going to burst?

How do you AI proof your job?

“How should colleges handle AI and prepare students for a shifting job market?”

I'm Henry Blodgett, and on my show Solutions, I've been exploring all of those questions and more with experts who have actual answers. We hear enough about our problems. Let's solve them. Follow Solutions with Henry Blodgett.

Thank you for joining me on the Vox Media Stage at South by Southwest for a live taping of on with Kara Swisher. So the Audacity is full of characters who are greedy, narcissistic, nihilistic, basically assholes, essentially. But it's only coming 12 years after HBO Silicon Valley, which presented a much more optimistic

value-driven focus on sort of quirky characters, and it did nail them in a in a satirical way.

And at the end, the characters want to do the right thing, which never happens in tech.

But it's also mirrors a larger shift of how people perceive Silicon Valley.

Let's start with Gina, then Billy, then Jonathan.

We kind of tried, and we've said this film, like Moment One, with the show, when Jonathan only had one script, which is it really is only about these characters, Kara, like, you know, and we really focused on families and how, you know, these parents do what they do. The kids really just want to be loved, right, by their parents.

“So we're kind of always trying to show, honestly, in every episode, if everybody sticks with”

it, good and evil in one scene, right? So we really, we want to show both sides of that, right? Here's hope there's dreams I'm going to try and make this thing that it might fuck up your kids. We hold both of those in each scene, because that's real, and we're going to keep doing that.

So why said it in tech could have been Hollywood, right, parents making stuff that may or may not be great for you, having their kids be affected by what you're making and doing and the values and the morals could have very easily been Hollywood, or, you know. So I think tech provides, I mean, it's what we're all talking about right now. You can't escape it.

Jonathan and I said literally from the beginning, we're like, we want our parents to see this show. Like, we want people that wouldn't have watched other shows about tech to watch this show, because it really is our world right now. And it's a snapshot of, this is the world we're living in.

It's the conversation we're all having. It's the conversation. A lot of us don't want to have even with our own families, right, like too much social media, get off your phone, you know, we can't escape it. So it felt rich.

I mean, one of our characters, even Billy's character tells us therapists, you could have come anywhere. You came to Silicon Valley, right? This is where money, power, largest concentration of the richest people in the world, you know, so it just felt like fertile ground to find stories about how we have a responsibility

to the next generation, to not fuck up the world.

“So that it's, we can't put it back together, right?”

Which right now we feel like we might be on the verge of not being able to put it back to you. Exactly, we are. Go ahead, Bill. With change in tech, well, I think it's a double edge short more than anything.

I, again, the original, the genesis of the idea was to help people, was it was exciting

to, I was on the cusp of after college finally tech in social media and these phone devices.

I think I got like one of the iPhones, smartphones when I was like 27. And remember, you know, before when you were young, you could be like, hey, I want to meet my buddy on the corner here and you would have to meet him at eight o'clock that night. But now with tech, you could go like, hey, we can meet anywhere, change everything. But also now they could pull out of meeting you at eight o'clock.

They could like, get away from you now instead of like, making it better, there's this, this double edge sort of, sorry, I'm so nervous that the shit, I'm saying, like, it's these things you have this opportunity to connect us even more, but at the same time, it distances us. Absolutely.

And when you, what was your, because your character is pretty fucking low some, at all times, at all times. Like one of the things I was saying to a friend of mine was, I can't stand him and there's pathos to him. And so when I was watching it, I thought, I don't want to feel sorry for these fuckers. I don't. And I did. I felt sorry for you.

“Well, I think it's because we're all humans and the humanity of these characters. Again,”

his intention to go through the valley and punch a hole in the sky was genuine. It was something to make the world a better place. And then with power, with money, with corruption, you know, these people are still innocent deep down their children. Well, that's certainly true. But I think that, for me, the change is, first of all, any comparison to the shit Silicon Valley is an incredible incredibly flattering compliment, not that you did

that exactly in terms of which one you liked better, but we're going to work on that. I think it's in the title of the audacity. It's an attribute that is a double edged sword. It's something that has fascinated me for a long time in terms of it's like the superpower that we all have, but most of us don't use because it means crashing through the gates and, you know, moving fast and breaking things. And which makes you a bull in a china shop, which used to be not a

good thing, right? But it never was. But go ahead. It never was. It still isn't. But it is now regarded.

I think the culture and Silicon Valley changed to make breaking things, disrupting things,

you know, that's, that's a change that seemed inevitable to a lot of people. I've been paying

attention to you for many years and you've been calling out this. This is where we're headed people.

“But I think that there is a madness that needs to be stopped. And I don't know how to do it.”

And I don't think satire is going to do it. So the only weapon that I have is to sort of hold up a mirror to them and do it. What's interesting part was, I'm not supposed to talk about the thing, but there's a character who seems to be based on me because it's a code conference, not possible by the way. And then I'll write a picture. No, there's only one carousel which is fine on us. That chair is code conference. But one of the things his character, he says explicitly

what has been implicit for years. And I think one of the things we're ongoing right now is these

tech moguls are saying explicitly like Sam Altman this week saying we're going to take all the intelligence that you have and we're going to steal it and sell it back to you. That's right. Yeah. Like, we're just going to do that or we're going to take this information and you, you are tickulate that. So Billy again, you play this sort of loads some tech entrepreneur who dunk in park and you've got that energy, that sort of magnetic kinetic. And I can't be a relevant energy.

And there's a lot of lines that I just love where you said belief is affirmed by fuckability, which is by the way beautiful, right? Thank you. That's an insecure character. Yes. Exactly. Another one is empathetic is just pathetic with a prefix and something. Don't think that's where he was so proud of himself, I'm not sure if he was so proud of himself. It's because he gets diagnosed as possibly empathetic, which is a problem for him. And then my

favorite one is raising money on fraught the numbers to sugarcoat the rotten apple is what built this down. Exactly, right? Hello, AI. But you think your socks about to crash, which is terrifying for you because your sock price and your dick are, quote, one in the same. Talk about him under

“the surface. How do you relate to a character that's deeply flawed and insecure?”

I've always said this with any character I've created a good or bad or whatever, that they're always

they're the hero in their own story and he thinks he's championing and creating the best idea for the world around him. I love the hypocrisy of the show is someone that's trying to make a perfect product for people or make the world perfect for people while at home it's easy to trash fire emotionally, personally doesn't know how to take care of things. And I think building the character around the insecure child he is deep down and the the love he wanted from

his father and the world he just wants affection and attention it could drive people to crazy crazy things just for acknowledgement. The people are on to him very they're like you're in it for yourself constantly through the show and he seems not self-aware in any way. Not self-aware but also fighting it he's trying to put the the mask on and and create the illusion of the world he believes he should

“be living in and I think that's a fascinating character to dive into. So Gina you said the show looks”

it still can value through a small town lens which it is it is it is a small school it's a school cafe. So tiny town little bubble is how you put it. Talk about that approach for people don't know much about the values probably not because now they're global these people are global in a and famous and to have met them back then when Jeff base I met him when he knew many money I met Sergey and Larry in the garage very although I have to say jerky people were jerky then

and they're just jerky or now. Talk a little bit about their tiny lens small bubble kind of thing. Well we we took trips there right and we went you know we went to box and we said diner and we saw every all the things hanging on the wall this is the booth where this was and this is they love that they love that and and you know it's not to similar to Hollywood right so you know where we like to like hold on to the tradition of the place right the classical tradition

for us it's like I mean even when we screen this for in San Francisco for a tech crowd a couple weeks ago everybody was coming up to us afterwards going that's where I get my coffee that's where I you know and it's it's I feel like part of what you know we're trying to hold on to is the idea that everybody's up in each other's business everybody knows what's going on you can't hide right what's dissimilar about let's say Hollywood in this world is you know it's it's good to have a failed

it's like how many how many empty like we were driving around doing location scouting and it was just gigantic empty buildings everywhere you know so it just feels like everyone knows your business dunking is trying to make sure that it doesn't come out that you know he wants he needs to get

another fish before it comes out so well that it's always a scheme it's always a Ponzi scheme

“but I do want to say something going back to the to the Billy things I think this is a really important to”

understanding like you know kind of one of the themes of the show we're hoping lands later in the season Billy goes to see his X CFO of his first company Falfa and Randall Park plays this character and he's about to maybe screw dunking over we don't know and and dunking says to him like we we we did this we built this company together don't screw me over and he's like you thought it was a movement and it was a startup you know and part of the one of the things is keeping

that alive it's like part of what dunking is maybe struggling with a little bit is what what did bring me here why am I in the valley did I come here to create something am I the man or

am I always going to be the co-man what was my well it's the idea that it's supposed to be a greater

than kind of thing you don't I never run into a banker that goes what we're really here to do care is community yeah actually one of my first stories for the Wall Street Journal was all the bullshit that when I got there I just got there and I was person and someone said cover it like you're a foreign correspondent like go in and just listen and it was all about like we're here free we're here for the community we're here together to make decisions and I was like well

why do you can have controlling shares then if if it's for all of us or we're here we're just simple people and I'm like well we're just wearing hoodies and comfortable clothes I'm like that's a $600 hoodie cashmere hoodie I'm sorry it just doesn't gel kind of thing and so the

“bullshit that went on from the beginning I think was trying and they're still doing it we're just”

simple people we just happen have a yacht plane chiefs of staff cooks et cetera et cetera et cetera I think I think the cult ish aspect of that that was started. You managed to plan that so you were

a writer and producer on succession and we talked about this when you first got approached

right this series your actress you don't know anything about tech you don't know shit about tech but when you went to Northern California as you said and spent some time what did you what were your observations well it was very monoculture um I bear to say I was looking for people of color that's a lot but that and it was difficult try to find a woman go ahead that too that too it's really is it it is because I think that and what they do with everything is they say well we put it

through an algorithm and this is this is clearly the way to go and it's clearly the way to go because culture and society has sort of fed the algorithm and why so many algorithms come out somewhat racist and misogynistic is because of that but in terms of what I saw there was this kind of grinding ambition that masked this utopian vision and a real kind of like why are these people who are have such difficulty communicating about themselves about their work and being honest about what

they're up to and putting all of these aphorisms ahead of the truth why are they in charge of how the rest of us are going to talk to each other and I heard up the clap you know and it's not just how we talk to each other it's every fucking against how we it's how we meet each other how we eat how we shop how we masturbate and they are paying attention to all of those things and and marking how we do each of these things in a way that is genuinely it's terrifying the more you know

“about it but it's also I think much more terrifying that we don't know about it that we don't know”

how they do it when Google first put out its version of a social average failed miserably several of them did they were like we don't know why we can't get it I'm like because you are the least social people I've ever fucking that my life like why are you telling us how to socialize that's interesting but it's also with some of the stuff that say Facebook did was addictive at the same time yeah look it's like you know dermatologists who were had acne as kids they're

trying to fix their own problems in a way through us and it's really fucking you know fix their self-position yeah yeah I was very struck when we went we were shooting in Palo Alto

the long line of couples like local couples and like the guys didn't know like they didn't know

“how to talk to girls they didn't know how to like I was just watching this long line of people”

they didn't know how to actually communicate and now they're creating a generation of other guys that don't know how to talk to girls either because of that all they know how to talk to is their phones and each other yeah we'll be back in a minute support for the show comes from Odo running a business is hard enough so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other one for sales and other for inventory

a separate one for accounting before you know it you're drowning in software instead of growing your business this is where Odo comes in Odo is the only business software you'll ever need it's an all in one fully integrated platform that handles everything CRM accounting inventory e-commerce HR and more no more app overload no more juggling logins just one seamless system that makes work

“easier and the best part Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost”

it's built to grow with your business whether you're just starting out or already scaling up plus it's easy to use customizable and design to streamline every process so you can focus on what really matters running your business thousands of businesses have made the switch so why not you try Odo for free at odo.com that's odo.com support for on with keraswisher comes from groans if you're looking for a health goal that you

can actually stick to you you might want to check out groans groans is simply daily habit that deliver real benefits with minimal effort their convenient comprehensive formula packed into a snack pack of gummies a day this isn't a multivitamin a greens gummy or a prebiotic it's all of those things and then some at a fraction of the price and bonus it tastes great groans ingredients are backed by over 35,000 research publications well generic multivitamin's contain only seven to nine vitamins

groans have more than 20 vitamins and minerals and 60 ingredients which include nutrient dense and whole foods that includes six grams of prebiotic fiber which is three times the amount of dietary fiber compared to the leading greens powders and more than two cups of broccoli it's a daily snack pack because you can't fit the amount of nutrients groans does into just one dummy plus that makes it a fun treat to look forward to every day kick off the new year right and save up to 52% off

with the code [email protected] that's code kera ka r a at groans g r u n s dot co support for the show comes from so fight let's face it college is expensive and how you pay for it really matters that's where so if i comes in so if i help you refinance at rates as low as 4.24% APR potentially saving big by lowering your monthly payment you can even customize variable rates to meet your financial goals all with no penalties or fees required check your rate in two minutes with no impact to your credit

score over 580,000 members have already refinanced more than 50 billion dollars with sofai

visit sofai.com/boxpod to see how much you could save that sofai.com/boxpod sofai student loans are originated by sofai bank and a member FDIC additional terms and conditions apply and i'm a less six nine six eight nine one really your co-star of course is trying to figure out how to get that way your co-star Sarah Goldberg plays therapist to tech CEOs it's a little like the the soprano's right that relationship doctor melphi and and soprano her name is Dr. Joanne Felder

their fates become intertwined after dunking black mails her without giving the way talk about the power dynamic between those tech billionaires on the show and the professional class i thought

you nail like that's the one thing that you always sort of focus in on the billionaires but there's

a whole series of enablers you know and it's they're really interesting because they're they're barely see thing you could feel that from them but i i remember being drawn into one among the Google founders of the chiefs of staff of various people fighting with each other but the chiefs of staff were the ones fighting with each other on behalf of the billionaires and and literally

“they started dragging me and i'm like you need to get away from me i don't want to hear about”

your stupid chief of staff beef essentially but talk a little bit about this relationship because that dynamic um well i just would love to say like serigolberg is fantastic actor and every day working with her has been an absolute treat and i'm sad she's not here on this trip but god she is

the people in your worlds if you pay them enough they're going to tell you everything you want to

“hear that's correct that's that's one thing but then it's funny that for some reason silicon valley”

has made the importance of these billionaires the most uh the top peak of what people have to pay attention to and it's just made up rules everyone in that valley are making shit up and so for some reason that's where the money is the people around them are also saying like oh this has to be important because they're making money doing it right and so that is a perpetual like cycle of just bullshit on top of bullshit on top of bullshit on top of bullshit you do a lot of like drinking different

elixirs and things like that and then throwing them at the assistance who keep bringing you things whatever you happen to ask for which is really very funny of course of course they're really good at it that's all really you make an excellent billionaire yeah thanks i wish come to know yeah chemistry is easily to him that's not true is there anyone you were focused on that you see publicly um yeah just look at the valley again as an artist as an actor like you like to

I like to see the things I love about people and I love hate about people and I make my own

“melange that's like the the the gift of acting I think is having the freedom to create”

these characters and build all the kinks and weird things and the unique qualities that they have so yes of course it's based off people out there and then it's a melange of the ideas I incorporate myself so there's also a zac galvanac is character Carl Bartoff he's fantastic one of the way um he's a tech pioneer former idealist who made money off of spam ultimately which just hurts because he did and everyone knows it but he tries and he's filthy rich he's still miserable

because he thinks he's underappreciated Carl tells Joanne and therapy where's our parade all I see his pitchforks and in gratitude which is a great line and just angry about it he's like a really mean Steve Wazniac I don't know well Steve Wazniac is not mean by the way what does he represent to you because there is a class of early valley that is so wealthy that they've lost all perspective

of everything and at the same time they're one of the things that's always I try to communicate

is the victimization they feel is so profound I've had so many people say you're so mean to me and

“I was like you need to get a dog or you need to speak to your parents about hugging but it's not”

my problem and so talk a little bit about that the victimization. Zach's character Carl Bartoff is actually the only billionaire in the cast Billy's character is wants to be and I think that part of that desperation to get to that class is what drives our Billy's character in some of the others but but Carl landed there with Spam and he's embarrassed about that he doesn't think he reminded yes he's also about legacy which is also very important to these guys Carl is stuck between

being aware of the bullshit and also wanting to be a part of it. Yeah he needs relevance. He needs relevance. He does but he at the same time he knows that that's an absurd notion and so that sort of that split that splinter in the brain creates in Carl and really played brilliantly by Zach this kind of you know this this need to fill the hole. Yeah and he thinks that maybe Duncan could be he's very attracted to Duncan. He's very attracted to Duncan. He wants to kill him

essentially at the same time but he's never met anyone as relentless as him doesn't matter how

many times he knock him down he keeps popping back up like a inflatable clown that you punch. He just keeps coming back up at you and actual punches actually and he does actually as there's some punching involved as well but yeah he's he's somebody who understands that back in the day we all talked about when we were making this sausage, making the world a better place and we all all the billionaires kind come to a fork in the road and most of us go doctor evil.

Right. And he does he's not comfortable doing that he's not ready to do that but he also really wants to be in the club. The relevance of the next thing. Yeah as we're writing season two right now which we were just green the first season two so we're very excited about that. Thank you. We we find out the backstory of like why he doesn't feel like he's in the what the incident was that caused him to not feel like he was you know part of the gang the the where we call God

Mountain the figures of God Mountain and and it's very very small and petty. It's amazing and still

angry. I was I'm in I'm in Washington now and they've followed me there. Does he can't get enough

and they like they're in with Trump now right and and they go yeah it looks like we've won and I looked at my said but you're still an asshole and they crumble I still had them I'm like yeah what do you think that that like that change of that idea like there was a time when Silicon Valley started that they kept the separation from the government they were like oh because they they

“figured out you can buy things I think they they had a real distinct especially like Bill Gates”

was always bragging didn't have lobbyists and then they realized especially as they moved into things

that were more analog like cars and things like that that a wait a minute we disdain them but we can buy them and Trump is the ultimate coin-operated president so as I know so in in in the Michael Lewis will I just a quicker Sam Bankman free there's a moment where Sam Bankman free is like oh this is actually very affordable by politicians it's affordable you can do this and Trump's explicit about it like give me the money you get a pardon give me the money you get to stand in

front of the auger it's very easy and I think they privately they insult him constantly and they just so you know Cara I'm like get the fuck out of here I'd rather talk to Marjorie Tillard fucking green than you because at least she believed in him she actually didn't not not any longer she's still terrible so just ask her about transitions and then you'll stop loving her so much you could have made dunk in the CEO of a food delivery app or social media but it's data mining

what's happening here it's this godlike omniscient idea which has been around for a lot

“this idea which they have now they really do and I think you articulate that really well”

you're making a point about privacy obviously or total lack of it and you know that started back with Scott McNeely there's no privacy get used to it kind of thing talk about what that means why that's such an important thing because that that runs throughout this show this this constant surveillance and I I talk a lot about surveillance culture it's obviously very key in China here it's for more selling use shit but eventually when you have administration that feels

treacherous it could be problematic it feels really problem it took a little bit about so yesterday on our panel that you did with us rob corjory one of the actors in in our show told you about something that was very real that happened with all of us and that was you know one of the characters in a later episode who works at cupartino she's telling her room full of employees that are all you know young in our twenties you know you know not to accept cookies right

yeah and they all go know I don't really know the techie right so and we all kind of looked at each other like we didn't know that either right yeah and I'm not I'm not afraid to say it so so that was that that was a big conversation with all of us like oh shit like so so really I personally for in this I'm coming through that like going to like do my parents know that every time my mom gets on to shop does she know that she's what she's giving away in the truth it's no people don't know

what they're what they're doing so that's a big lens also again to bring up the kids again and we get into this a little bit in the season two which where there's a writer's room up now for it um which is why I didn't grow up with social media and I'm really glad I didn't you know like imagine if every single thing you did could be broadcast to the world right it's just a different time we're living in now and there needs to be a different level of protection

we are not offering right now so we kind of just want to just from a very sort of like in the ground like do you know what you're signing up for every time you click that button and answer

is no so that's kind of one of the things that important to us yeah so early in the first episode

we see a billboard for a company called Spookle that names are really great that what yours is a it can know no sis I don't know anything the names are fantastic you could call a company that actually but the tagline is you agreed to this yes we agreed to this yeah so billi when you're preparing for the role did you lean into that uncomfortable truth we agreed to this and you articulate that later because on some level we have accepted the terms and conditions

because you do lean into it as a character which I suspect you don't believe what you were saying

“yeah but this guy really says too fucking bad this is looking bad but I think he also has such a”

need or desire his want is so great a grand that nothing can stop him any steel door is going to be knock down either with a pickaxe blowtorch he's going to keep fighting through it but you agreed

never thinks it's a bad thing you really do deliver on that that he never questions

it's a mindset uh Duncan has is like no I'm doing this for you it's that it's what you need it's the medicine you don't need I'm giving it to you don't worry I'm gonna make your life better that you don't even know it so that's a dangerous person in my opinion absolutely he's terrifying actually

“I was just gonna say I mean I think that it is in in in the end of the season and I don't think”

I'm getting it you're giving too much away Duncan does basically confront all of Silicon Valley

at the conference that Cara did not host but never wear those chunky glasses for God yeah

but there is a sense of you all already they're they're they're angry at him for basically he's gonna market people's personal data commodify it and they're angry at him for what is really gonna happen is a disruption of their profit center which is us and that's the thing when I when I first went up to Silicon Valley one of the things that I asked about was what should this guy what's his company and I didn't get the answer but I didn't said

what about data and they're like oh yeah that's evergreen that's not going away

“right and then especially with AI and then I did more research and during the truth is it is”

how they make their money is off of us advertising how they sell to third parties all of that

stuff and so if there's a guy that comes along and is going to sort of pull back the curtain and say this is what we're doing and you guys you're such hypocrites you're already doing this you know when women's menstrual cycles are you know when to sell them sweatpants and when to sell them stilettos like that's what that is what they're doing and I'm just saying I mean there's one Sam Alman as I said we see the future where intelligence is a utility like electricity or water

and people buy it from us on a meter and of course the intelligence comes from which is an astonishing thing he also talked about he went on to say intelligence needs to become quote two cheap to meter

“and of course he also said that it takes a lot of energy to raise humans so what's the problem”

with data centers which is unusual coming from someone who just had a baby but that's another we're not going into that but when you think about that idea this the sort of I call it's Walmasberg name the merpatious information thieves 15 years ago on stage was served he said to Sergey and Larry Irver Pace's information thieves is what you are and just this week Grammarly was stealing me they were re they were selling me to people without asking me if it was okay by pulling in all my stuff

what how do we not agree to this junior what is the we do agree to this for convenience as you noted it's it's really a trade of ourselves we are the product for convenience of a cheap free map or a dating service or a piece of information that we actually paid for in the first place yes yeah you know going back to Duncan's first company that he had which was called faffa you know we we hear a character go yeah I bought my first Subaru on faffa and I bought you know

there was a moment when it really was that like you know it really was something that you know in canoes and ship yeah we have another character um a nushka who is the kupertino executive say okay great we can get cuketips delivered overnight but really what have we done what are we doing we actually go there and and one of those scenes we have someone saying exactly what you're saying which is let's take this moment and know the world we're living in and it's like but really what have we

done right what have we done other than we can get shit delivered in 24 hours really you know and that's a question that's really question twenty four yeah and it is it's also you know did we said did we do anything that we said about to accomplish or we are more tolerant society of course not did we do anything positive for our kids probably know did we you know help the environment no these these data centers are you know right one of the things I'm gonna talk about the business

the larger Hollywood business in a second but one of the things that's most poignant here are the kids I happen to know a lot of these kids that you're depicting and I I feel for them you know and a lot of them I actually some of their parents aren't talking you mean more but the kids are just the way and I went out with one of them and one of their parents took a took a nugly turn I would say and he asked me 16 years old and we had dinner and his mom asked me to dinner with them and

he goes what do we do I said here's what we do when your parents when your dad dies we're gonna take

very much like the people who ran the gas companies a rock of elephant I should turn around I

said you have an opportunity to shift it into something better like that kind of thing but the

“kids I think are the key to this entire show all the kids and the the way they're hurting in ways”

that scene there's a scene where they're at dinner which is devastating as they're not paying any attention kind of stuff yeah um so that to me is the heart of the show yeah and it is um you know one of the main characters is this kid orson it's kind of based on me I grew up in a house with two psychiatrists and I could I could hear them yeah and but he in in our story he he moves from Baltimore into this bubble where everyone is optimizing their brains and their bodies

and he is an awkward pubescent with IBS and the idea of like can we come up with a bed yeah of some somebody who is so genuinely human genuine you know is corporal self is betraying him

in this culture that is basically saying hey you could take this you could take that you know

you can be a better person mentally and physically and seeing it happening all around and they're really our literal billboards for yeah I'm sure no that's my whole series about yeah it doesn't not of it works but you see you're going to die in the end just plot spoiler for my series but you're all going to die someday and thank goodness too we'll be back in a minute

support for this show comes from Odoo there's an endless supply of software out there that promises to streamline your workflow that may be true for a specific aspect of your business but if you need one app for accounting one for inventory management and other for sales cost streamline

“can your workflow actually be if you have to be the middleman between them Odoo says they're the”

answer you're looking for the only business software you'll ever need Odoo can be your one stop shop for CRM accounting inventory e-commerce HR and more plus it's super customizable and easy to use out of the box and the best part they say not only can they replace multiple applications but they say they'll do it for a fraction of the cost but you're just starting out or already well on your way to scaling Odoo wants to help you put the clutter aside so you can do what you set out to do

when you started your company thousands of businesses have made the switch so why not you try Odoo for free at odoo.com that's odo.com I want to move to the industry in general because it's also affecting all of you all of this which are right. Which you're depicting here is is what's the rest of us aren't being pulled around by the nose by this industry so I just had Matt Bellany on the podcast who's a journalist very good

journal and she told me the biggest question in Hollywood is will I lose my job for a lot of people answers yes actors will say at least in the short term you're okay. Really nice not for long but there's a lot of job as is Billy first talk about you've been working as actor for 20 years what do you think the next 20 years is going to be like with AI and other what is the

top of mind for each of you on right now the mood you have. The mood I have is sometimes always

it's a lie for me. All I could relate it to is kind of like the music industry weirdly and

“I think of like the idea of like being in touch the original idea of Napster or like all these”

things is to have access to all these beautiful programs or songs I would say and then slowly over time you realize these artists that were creating this music couldn't make it anymore because the money never made it to them they couldn't sell an album and I think it's happening in our industry where like you used to be able to do DVD sales or or have part of the VHS sales and you had back and you could support a life as an actor because of this technology and like I applaud

today yeah but you know I hope they keep strong yeah they're just stealing all the pot and not

giving the resources that people that are actually creating these pieces of work and these pieces of art and that that scares me. What do you think about when the tech companies are buying which I wrote about many years ago they're going to this is the next thing they're healthcare and this. Well if they're going to organize it properly we already know like AI has the ability to if I have a bottle in a scene and if they're going to show this movie in like Thailand they could put

whatever product out in Thailand is the best selling product in my hand at the same time shouldn't that uh performer or people that created that show get a cut of that profit? Yes yeah they should um I don't know who's fighting for it I want to but yeah and that shit scares me

“what if it's Hitler beer you know stay in it too I think just on rock and they're not doing very”

well. Well I came up in uh 90s independent film in New York in the mirror max world which is a whole other podcast and at that time we were working with you know lots of filmmakers that were a tours and we shifted from film to digital in that in that time and that was a huge conversation right what does this mean this is not real filmmaking this is not this is because we're going to this is going to dot we're going to die from this right and you know I'm a creative

producer I view my my job as a producer of bringing other people's store helping them bring their stories to life um so I kind of saw at that time that you know there's a as any innovation especially within the creative industry there is a reluctance to um change right like this is how film is made we need to carry cans around and we need to you know have it with our hands gradually everybody accepted it and they accepted it because some of the old guard like Scorsese and Copila started saying

no this is great this is this is a new democracy for filmmaking this is now everybody can do it it's not just a specialized thing for you know you just a certain group of people not anyone can be a filmmaker so we found a silver lining then which was then shooting a phone on my phone I can be a filmmaker I can be a kid making a a film in my backyard in anywhere in the world right I don't know what

“that silver lining is yet for this what the phase we're about to be in I believe we will find one”

because we always have as creative people we've always found a way to hold on to the stuff that's

most important to keep telling the stories to keep putting it out there but we have to do that and we do it together we find it together Jonathan I mean are you there's look a tech companies are going to own these things we don't know how AI is going to transform how you seem what happened I don't know if you've watched the doge staffers you know it's really disturbing to watch some of these kids who are used chat GPT to cancel over a hundred million dollars in humanities

grants without any reason with just because they were doing searches and replacements essentially what is what is that how do you think of it as a producer I would be worried if I were you sure I'm warning you know I I first of all I feel incredibly fortunate to be able to to be making this show and to be working a lot of my friends are in trouble the amount of shows that are being made is is reduced just because attention spans are going elsewhere maybe that's the natural

flow of of economy and and and art you know the format being adjusted as it always has over time

I do have some faith in that story telling is not going to go away we've been doing it for thousands

“of years I don't expect that we're going to to stop I think that the desire to see a story”

that it plays out for more than sixty seconds is also not going to go away although it will be diminished it has already been diminished attention spans and one of the most frightening articles that I read recently was how film schools are having film schools are having a difficult time getting their film students or paying to go there to watch full feature film they just they you know same thing with books oh with books for sure that's been going on since I wasn't

school anyway but my my refuge was the movies and and you know two three hours in a movie was a fantastic place and wait to spend my time and that is a difficult thing to get people to do

although I don't think AI could write lines like cheaters never lose and losers they never cheat

and information is not insight I thought that was one of the best lines and I you know going back to succession I don't think any AI could write you are not serious people and have it mean

“so much I think right now AI can do a procedural pretty well yeah especially something”

that's been around you know it's 20 years original you know 20 seasons of law in order I'm sure that that can be replicated I'd like to think as a viewer and as a fan of storytelling that most people at some point after there's a I'm sure there's going to be a fat I'm sure there's going to be something that comes out there the way it is now in music where there are actual AI celebrity singers and songwriters if you can call it a writer there's going to be something that

comes out that is going to have that you know AI the newness of that but at some point when you're being asked to emotionally invest in characters and story do you really want it to be written by

“a fucking computer I don't I don't I don't I don't I I I I I think that we have to acknowledge”

the and this is I think in many ways the the real thesis of this show is that we are losing touch with our humanity and that no matter how good they get they're only going to get good because they are absorbing our experiences and then spitting them back as yes it does get better in the series I have

I create a bought of myself a 3D bought and it gets better and better I hate to say it but first it's

creepy and then it's like I had a real conversation just like you do in the show and I was like wow and they're like what do you what do you think about me I said I'm trying to figure out a way to kill you like that's my but that's your instinct and I think that's the instinct of perhaps it doesn't come out as bluntly right in others but I think that's I did kill it you did you that's exciting I made it I am the creator and the destroyer last question for me I'd like to know if you think

this series his hopeful dystopian what word would you use to describe it daily first then Gina and then Jonathan oh man um if that will word what I describe it like it's I can't encapsulate everything that's in Jonathan glass was mine in the talent that has been putting this show together in one word because like human life you can how do you feel doing it for me it I love it it's it's every every day waking up and showing up to set was a gift the people I work with the

language that I get to speak it was always a gift it was a feat and I feel a responsibility like

the as an artist is like you are supposed to put the mirror up to reality and like I'm not saying we're good or bad or whatever but this is what's out there and this is how we see it and it's your it's your choice as an observer or someone who digest it to interpret it your own way that's the point of art is like I have a feeling you have response if we can connect on an emotional level about of it out of it that's the magic of art and I don't think an AI model can paint a photo

that will touch my soul um like someone who could just draw a line like fucking Picasso you know it means something helpful the kids in our show yes are hopeful and they're redeemable and that's that the hopeful by the end of the series they're not going to be their parents I don't think that's absolutely true today I have to say I also struggled to come up with the word and hopeful is not

“it sorry to say that's why we're great together thank you it's true it's true you know hope to”

me is I think I said to you yesterday you know the old line that sat tire is the protest of the week and it is I am weak and I don't have the ability to change society but if we can just remind people of what is unique about our species and how much of that is being diminished by this tech and remind them you know that they're gonna die as you say you know the brackets of life that we have for you know billions of years understood when you know

something that I would love for them to understand that their own fallibility is a gift which was

interestingly the message from Steve Jobs when he did that speech before he died about that we talked about death this is the great that it's it's actually a big theme in this how it shifted like as you say the fork in the road which is important to understand it's everything it is and and that

“I have a great allergy to certainty I think anybody who claims absolute knowledge of any”

particular topic is you know about to step in a bucket of shit yeah and they just don't know it

and you often do you're character not you don't I don't know what you do and you're really

myself as well yeah anyway this is a wonderful show I truly I was I was last night it was wonderful and I I have to say I don't want to spend another minute with these people not these people but the people in tech and I I really felt for them and I'm furious that you made me feel for them in any empathetic way because it's just empathetic with a prefix anyway I really appreciate it

“thank you so much for joining me Jonathan later Gina Mungachie and Billy Magnison thank you so much”

audacity premieres on April 12th on AMC and AMC plus thank you thank you today's show was produced by Christian Castro O'Selle Michelle Aloy Catherine Milsob, Megan Burti and Kaylyn Lynch Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer podcast special thanks to Katherine Barnard our engineers are Rikwan and Fernando Aruda and our theme music is by Tracodemix if you're already following the show we're glad you agreed to this if not all we see

our pitchforks and in gratitude go wherever you listen to podcasts search for on with Cara Swisher and

“hit follow thanks for listening to on with Cara Swisher from podium media New York Magazine the”

Vox Media podcast network and us will be back on Monday with more thanks again to Odo for supporting this show Odo wants to be your ultimate all-in-one fully integrated platform to handle everything seriously everything inventory CRM accounting HR and much more no more shopping around or settling for expensive services can only handle a fraction of your business thousands of businesses have made this which so why not you try Odo for free at odo.com that's odo.com

support for the show comes from sofa let's face it college is expensive and how you pay for it really matters that's where sofa comes in so if I help you refinance at rates as low as 4.24% APR potentially saving big by lowering your monthly payment you can even customize variable rates to meet your financial goals all with no penalties or fees required check your rate in two minutes with no impact to your credit score over 580,000 members have already refinanced more than 50

billion dollars with so far visit sofi.com/boxpad to see how much you could save that sofi.com/boxpad

sofi student loans are originated by sofi bank and a member FDIC additional terms and conditions apply animal last six nine six eight nine one but what I want to do is not to buy the most expensive studios the master by tag leapt for the top of the software handy internet so master's realtor ah say you can say that you're a cool guy you're a steuer but you don't know the same thing you're not a gal, it's a very good value for a truck

make the whole thing like this steuer and when you then work, it's a chain that's right save like so steuer hold it your money to the right now post news out for me