Ina Garten’s Next Course? A Podcast

It's kind of like having the dress for the party.

Once you have the dress, you know you're ready to go. But I mean, if you could see my kitchen after I've done it dinner party, it's like chaos. Hi everyone from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Cara Swisher and I'm Cara Swisher.

Today I'm speaking to the barefoot contest of herself, Ina Garten. She spent two decades hosting popular cooking shows on the food network, and she's written about a dozen cookbooks. Her fans love her for her simple delicious recipes that are also crowd blazers.

Ina's latest project is a new podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network, which also produces this show. It's called Happy Hour with Ina Garten, it launches next month in each week. She'll invite guests over to a New York City apartment to share a drink and intimate conversation. It's yet another pivot for Ina in a career that's been full of them.

Even at 78 years old, she keeps reinventing herself. I think it's great that she's coming to podcasting, and I think she'll be fantastic at it. She's an incredibly compelling personality. She has a huge fan base.

“And I think it's really important for a lot of people to go independent and try new things.”

Also, that tomato sauce recipe she does, I have made hundreds of times trust me when I tell you you should do it. All right, let's get to my conversation with Ina Garten. Our expert question comes from L.S.R. Sontag, Food Critic at the Washington Post.

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[MUSIC PLAYING] I met thanks for coming on on. So happy to be here. So happy to meet you. Congratulations on your new podcast.

And I know we were trying to make this interview happen in person. And it didn't work out. But I'm curious what cocktail would you make for me if our coming over to be. A guest on your show? I have a favorite new cocktail.

First, I would ask what kind of cocktails you like.

But my favorite cocktail is a bourbon sour that I found in the south of France at a hotel that has a little bit of chocolate liquor and a little vanilla in it. You don't taste the chocolate in the vanilla, but it makes the bourbon taste incredible.

Somebody described it as like drinking liquid velvet. Oh, wow. So that's what I would make for you. What kind of cocktails do you like? I don't actually-- I know this is terrible,

but I don't have a big drinker. My wife is. My wife would love that. But loves a bourbon. I do the whole mock-till thing, even then they cost

a fortune in restaurants. Is it crazy? 15 dollars. I'm kind of surprised. I don't have an issue.

I just don't like alcohol.

I've never had my whole life.

But there's all these really incredibly creative things happening. And nobody's drinking anymore, which is crazy. So I think when you go to a restaurant, there's many mock-tills, as there are cocktails. Absolutely.

I just had one at a restaurant called Aonju in DC. It's a Korean restaurant. And it was a leechi. It was a version of a leechi. That's a good idea, actually.

“The thing about mock-tills that's really important”

is it needs to have like an edge. It needs lime.

Otherwise, it just tastes like a fruit juice drink.

Yes, which I also like. Right. For sure, I guess I don't think-- So the pod gets the reason I'm asking this. The pod guess is called happy hours in a garden.

And the focus is going to be unduranged, both cocktails and mock-tills and longer conversations. And it's a different way of presenting yourself in food media. A lot of people associate you, obviously, with cooking. Talk about why you wanted to go in this direction for the podcast.

When I've been doing my TV shows, I really started out thinking I wanted to do a conversation with somebody. And to really connect with them and find out who they are and what's interesting to them. And we ended up doing a cooking show with the conversation.

But I just found a very short conversation's hard because you end up actually doing an interview not a conversation.

So if you have six minutes to do an interview in order

to get to know somebody, it's pretty hard to do in six minutes. I wanted a long-form conversation.

“And so that's why I decided a podcast was really a better place”

to do that. And so that's what I've done. And so the conversation is about an hour, and we edit it down to 45 minutes. But it's exactly the way it is.

And is it harder with cooking? You decided not because you know all podcasts are video now, as you know. Well, podcasts are really shows. They're not really even podcasts anymore.

They're like TV shows. And I've been cooking for 25 years on film. And I just thought it's time to kind of shake it up. So the show is launching next month. And they'll feature guests who say you felt you couldn't have on your TV show.

So what kind of guests are we going to expect? And how does it open up opportunities for different kind of guests for someone like you? I'm wondering if it opens different opportunities, but it's easier for guests because everybody

shows up in New York at some point. So if they're coming to do a speaking engagement, I can ask them to just stop by and have a drink and have a conversation with me. It's just much easier to get guests. And I find it when I invite them to my apartment.

It's much more intimate and much more casual. And it's not so quick questions with quick answers, but like much more thoughtful. And I really love figuring out how the guests and I really see things in similar ways

where we connect what we're interested in. One of my guests is Sophia Copula. And she's really interested in table settings. And I'd love to talk to her about that. I mean, who knew that about Sophia Copula?

No, I did not. I did not.

“I mean, I think I've had guests that are cooks and guests that are not cooks,”

but this doesn't require that. I mean, there will be some people who are chefs and interested in cooking, but there will be people who are not. I mean, for example, Anne Pasha is going to come on. And I'm very good cook.

But I'd like to talk to her about other things on the lover books and she's fun, and she's actually a friend, and we'll have wonderful time. So it's a little bit like my dinner with Andrex, up with drinks.

The visuals for a podcast and couldn't show are obviously different, of course. And in a cooking show, you are very active. You're moving around, prepping ingredients, giving instruction. And in this, you're seated with someone. Talk about the transition and how it felt for you.

I wanted to be beautiful like film. And so we worked very hard to get the kitchen table where I am has gorgeous, kind of rust, orange walls. And it was a great way to set up a podcast that would look beautiful. And it was just kind of like everything I do.

I want my books to look beautiful. I want them to be authentic, you know, like my style. And I wanted people feel really comfortable. And so I think we really achieved it. My first guest was Paul Carmichael. And when we left each other, we just said,

it was just extraordinary that we'd never met before.

I felt like I'd known him forever. And the our conversation really got us connect about, we see things, we come from totally different places, but we see things very similarly. Like we like doing things that are fun. And when he set up his restaurant Cabawa,

which is the number one restaurant in the New York Times, list of restaurants in New York, everything he did was in the furtherance of how can this be fun, including the music that's pumped into the bathrooms. So he thinks about things really clearly in each detail

and how can it be more fun? And I do too.

“I think that's a really important kind of factor when you're doing things”

doing anything, but particularly when you're doing things. Publicly. Now you've been in all the mediums. And you just noted that podcasting is television now. And I would agree. It's a different kind of television,

but how do you think about the entertainment value and audience building between the two mediums?

I mean, we all work so hard and the world is so stressful. And if you can do something that's fun that you can share with people,

“it's just so appealing. And I think that's what my cookbooks are.”

It's fun to read, but also I'm giving you the tools to do something fun for yourself, which is cook something and gather your friends around you. And I felt that way about the TV show that it was fun to watch. And you might learn something about cooking that will be fun for you to do.

And I think basically the podcast is that too. It's fun to listen to, but it's also really interesting. That you might walk away with something interesting that you'll use. Like Alison Roman said to me,

"Why are we always pushing so hard to cook fast?

Why not instead of taking the highway? Why not take the scenic road and really enjoy the process?" I mean, I think about that whenever I cook now. So it's interesting, but it's also a fun conversation. Yeah, fun. Exactly. I would describe you also.

But there's a lot that running and growing a business and going into a new area that isn't fun and it still has to get done. I know it's the sound strange, but what's the most unfun thing you have to to keep your business going? How do you force yourself to do it well with some fun, presumably?

You know, there are two aspects of every business. And I really do, like both of them. I like the business part of it, figuring out how to promote it and how to share it with people and the creative part, which is just having the conversation.

So what's the most unfun thing? You don't have to not have fun. You may have fun doing everything.

“I think I mean, there are things that we do flying to Chicago”

and sitting at a stage and having a conversation.

There's always something fun in it.

And I could live without the airports and I could live without the travel. But I think, if I'm on a stage with somebody doing an interesting interview and people are having fun in the audience, that's really fun. And we're desperate for it, aren't we?

Right, 100 percent. I feel like there's a real shift happening right now. What do you see is the shift? Well, I'm watching voters. I always watch voters.

I think they always express something. They're expressing something and some of it is just anger. But one of the things, I think people are sick and tired of being sick and tired. You know what I mean? It's like, I totally know what you mean.

And enough of this. This is so mean. Every day you open the newspaper and there's total chaos. Yeah, yeah. And it's not, it's not good chaos.

No, it's bad chaos. Sometimes chaos is good. Sometimes chaos is important to get you forward as anything. I like chaos in some ways. But it's just, it's like nobody wants to feel bad anymore.

And it's angry. It's angry. And everybody's angry. People are angry on the left. People are angry on the right.

“And I think that we all just need to settle down and be kinder to each other.”

Take care of each other. And surround ourselves with people that we love. And it really takes the anger away. And that's really what I'm trying to encourage. And I think when you cook for people, they all show up and they have a good time.

And you create a community around yourself that makes you feel better. It's not about surrounding yourself with people that love you. It's about people that you feel love for. And that's what really grounds us. And so cooking and talking, it's the whole thing.

So what are you hoping to get out of it? You didn't get from TV or bookwriting. They are, I do all three things too. I can't stand bookwriting anymore. I have to do that for real.

I'm in the movie because I'm in the middle of it. I'm like, oh, I got to get up. I can't stand the screen. And TV's fine. TV's fine.

Like the formal TV. Well, TV was great. It's been a great experience. And I'm not necessarily done with it. I just wanted to try a medium that was very clear about what I wanted to do,

which is Connect with People.

You've always had a sort of fan-based career.

I know it sounds weird, but one of the things, if I could say anything, moving into podcasting, is the level of fans are very different. Now, you already were sort of down that road. It's a really very different relationship you have because you're in people's ears. How do you see that?

What's the difference to you? I love it. Oh, you love it. Oh, that's wonderful. I love it.

Because people, when people used to come up to me, they'd like a story, I wrote, or something I said on television, or something like that. And when pivot fans or on fans come up to me, it's emotional. You make me feel better. I'm happier after listening to it.

It's often happier. I feel calmer, which is interesting, because there's a lot of complex topics we talk about. And I'm not sure why, but it's wonderful. I have to say. Well, I think you're in their ears, in their head.

It's not like you're just overhearing conversation, but it's really important to me that

in every show that I did, every podcast that I do, that there's something that the audience can use is their information that's useful in your personal life.

“And I think they all end up with, you know, like how to infuse your life with more fun.”

Absolutely. It's, you know, just, I think it's a wonderful thing to think about. And we can do it. One of, very close friend of mine is Jennifer Wallace, and she wrote a book called Maddering. And I love talking to her because she's, the research shows that the people are the happiest,

are the ones that feel like their lives matter to others. And it's so actionable. But if you don't feel like your life matters, you can connect yourself with the charity, you can write a book that might matter to other people.

You can very quickly figure out something that you can do that will matter to others.

And I think a podcast does that. It's, if you're conscious of making sure that you're sharing, you're not just, this is what I did in that's the end of the story. This is what I did.

“And this is how you can do the same thing and it was really made me very happy.”

It's a very important message. We'll be back in a minute. Support for the show comes from Quince. Tate to break a tube. But now it's August and it means summer is almost over.

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One thing you and I have in common is that we've been evolving our careers, I've changed a lot, and you have done lots of different things, and you are moving away from traditional media spaces at TV and publishing going independent. I've talked a lot about how great the movement has been for me, I've been doing it for

“a dozen years, and how I think more people should do it, but it also seems like people”

close to you have been pushing you to do this for years, so talk a little bit about this shift. You know, somebody asked me recently, actually, I thought it was really interesting. This is most people start a business, and they grow it, and they grow it, and they grow it.

And she said, "What you do is you start a business, you shut it down, you start another business, you shut that one down." And you started a third business, I don't like being the head of a company that's doing things. I like doing things, and so I think that was a really interesting view of what I do.

I just, I find I have like a 20-year attention span, and I like to do something until I know how to do it, I've done it, and it's time to challenge myself again, and then I'll take it to the next level, or in a different direction, but still in the same genre of food and connecting with people, and that's basically what I've done for the past 40 years, in a slightly different way, that may be accessible to people in a different way.

Was there a moment I always have these, that happens to me, when I stopped doing my conference

after 20 years, which was really six, and when it was very successful, I was like, "God, we're done. I don't know why. I just woke up one morning and thought, "Oh, that's it." Because you know how to do it.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's not a challenge. No, and it wasn't fun, as you say. But one of the things I remember when I was a younger, it's harder to do when you're younger, it's a little easier to do when you're sort of practiced, but I was walking out of an interview

in New York, and I was in your Grand Central Station, a beautiful day, one of those beautiful New York days, and I was working somewhere, and I walked out of the building, and I thought, "Okay, I'm quitting." Like, it just popped into my head, like, "I'm going to do something else. I'm moving."

And I moved. I changed jobs. I shifted. How did this happen for you? Well, I've done it many times.

Yes, you have. Starting with Washington. I mean, I worked in nuclear energy policy in the White House, and everybody thought, "Wow, what a fabulous job, and I thought, "Oh, I have to get my head to get out of here."

I didn't like working in an organization, and I particularly didn't like working in an organization

where it required a man to promote me, and I thought, "That's never going to happen."

And that was 1970, the mid-1970s. I think it's changed a little bit, but I'm not sure it's changed that much, and so I decided

“I had to find a parallel universe where the only thing that would stop me is my own creativity,”

and that's when I bought Barefoot Contessa. I think I'm very happy when I have a problem I can't solve, and I think, "How is this ever going to happen?" But it's something that I think would be fun to do, and I just figure out how to solve the problem, how to get there, how to put a team together, and then we're often running,

and at the end of it, I think, "I did it, that's just what I wanted to do, that's just what I wanted to look like, and feel like, and then I'll do that for 20 years, and then at some point go, "Okay, it's time to have a new challenge." What's the signal? I'm bored.

What was your signal when you left the podcast? I don't know, I feel like it's something just pops into your head, and you don't know why. I just was like, "I want to do that, and I had just sold my company to Jim Bankall." We love, we love, and it was a lot of money that we sold it for, and I call them, and

I said, "I'm not running the website anymore," and he's like, "What?" And I said, "I want to start a podcast," and he was like, "Okay, that's exactly how it app, like he was so easy to do that with, which is why you want to surround yourself with people that say, "Okay, I just was like, this is what I need to do, and I'm not sure if it's out of the blue."

What were you bored with in your last thing? I didn't know how to do it. I just once I knew how to do it, there were no problems to solve, and television is a great medium, but thanks for moving.

Things were changing, and it doesn't mean I'm never going to go back to TV.

I'm just saying, "At this moment, I thought podcasting is interesting.

“It was kind of expanding, I didn't know whether there was a ceiling on it, but I think”

the other thing, too, was I was talking to somebody for about two years about doing podcast, and as with TV, I kept saying, "No, I needed to figure out what I wanted it to be that's

I wanted it to be a podcast that was unique, that had a different point of view, that looked different, that felt different, and once I kind of sorted out what that was, then I was ready to try it," and I still don't know, because when it launches, we'll find out. It changes, which is the best part, and it's easier to change than most men. You can't change TV quite as easily.

One of the things that appealed to you was messiness, a certain kind of messiness, something

you embrace in life, but you also have very high standards, you tell people never to serve

anything that hadn't been made before hosting a party, you also told the New Yorker the Eddie inviting someone out to dinner at a place you'd been meaning to try. It was a polling that they didn't have. But I do, like, as I said, chaos. When do you lean into the mess, and when do you hold back? I think what I meant about messiness is that when I do a TV show, we film for a day and a half to end up with 22 minutes of film. When we do a podcast, we film for about an hour, and we

edit it down to like 45 minutes. It's the meat of it. It's not over-edited. It's not over-shopped. It's not over-thought. It feels much more organic than a television show. That's kind of what I meant, but messiness. Not messy like there's a mess behind me or there's a pile of dishes somewhere.

That's not going to happen anywhere. There is never a pile of dishes in your kitchen.

“I'm guessing. Are you ever messy at anything like a secret drawer?”

Oh, my God. I'm the messiest cook you could possibly imagine. Because I like to cook and throw everything in the sink and then later clean up. But my kitchen has to be immaculate when I start. Oh, why? But literally, I can't. I can't even start doing a dinner party until the table is set. It's kind of like having the dress for the party. Once you have the dress, you know you're ready to go.

But I mean, if you could see my kitchen after I've done it dinner party, it's like chaos. Jeffrey actually jokes that I can take out dinner from a especially food store and use every dish in the kitchen heating it up. Yes. That sounds like my son is a cook. He works at Boulevard in San Francisco. Oh, does he really? Yes. He's now the salad guy.

Yeah. He's just his first job out of college. Um, but he, he started off as a prep chef. I just prep cook. He's no, I can't use a word. Jeff, he tells me. And now he's the guardian of Montgi. The salad guy. Guard bargey. He does the cultivation. What does that mean? What I don't even know what it means. Guard, Montgi. Montgi is to eat.

And like, I, I actually don't know technically, but he, he does all the salad.

“Salad. That's what he's doing. Which is great. Yeah. Yeah. He's very excited.”

Good for him. Um, but he's terrified of the hotline. That's all I know. These are the things he tells me. I'm like, not the hotline. I'm like, okay, not the hotline. I don't know what you're saying. Um, so talking about reinvention of career, um, you also haven't dramatically reinvented your identity. Everyone knows who you are, right? And at the same time, you've changed. And so talk about the North stars of how you think about things. What a great

question. Um, I mean, as we get older, we get more clear about who we are and what we want to do. And I don't know what it is. When I started writing books, I was with the top cookbook publisher in that country with the top cookbook editor. And I just instinctively knew what I wanted to do. And it was very different from what other people were doing at the time. They were writing cookbooks that had 250 recipes and no photographs. And I wanted to write the cookbook that I wanted,

which was a cookbook with 75 recipes and gorgeous photographs and simple ingredients that you

“get as a grocery store. And I think even my publisher didn't get what I wanted to do. But I was just,”

this is what I'm going to do. And if I'm wrong, I'm really sorry. But you'll never have to see

me get any way. And if I'm right, it's going to work. And I don't know where it comes from, actually, Cara. I think it's just an internal knowledge of, this is what I want to do. And I have to do it my way. And fortunately, it seems to have worked so far, but we'll see if works in podcasting. I think that making sure, when I think about my brand, I always think the first thing is fun. If it's fun, people will be really attracted to it from the store. Like when you

walked into the store, there was a screen door that closed behind you and it felt like summer. There was great music. There was great smells. We always had bread baking in the store.

senses were engaged. And I love that when people walked in, they felt good. And they would say, I just came in to see what was going on. And then they walk out with three bags of groceries.

“And I think, yeah, did my job today. And I feel that way about the television. If it's fun,”

people will really be attracted to it. So that's kind of where I'm always looking. And I think

to do a podcast with people that's both interesting and fun is a wonderful thing to be able to do. Yeah, I just see a series on CNN on longevity. It was called Cara Swishaw wants to live forever. And one of the things that got dropped out of it was what I wanted to put on my headstone when I died, which was, and it was very critical that the punctuation be correct. It was fun, exclamation point, fun, exclamation point, death period. It's fun, fun, fun death.

That's incredible. I love that Cara. I just love that. Think about it. If you're in a cemetery in someone walks by, they'll laugh their ass off. And also, what's the point of you're not having fun?

Right, also, but fun is also, you know you're going to die and therefore it has gravity too.

Yes. You're fun has gravity. That makes sense. Death has to have a period. No, it's semicolon. Oh, there may be a semicolon. I'm not religious, so I don't know. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Delete Me. Stockers, cameras, and hackers are doing whatever it takes to get their hands on valuable data. Luckily, there's Delete Me. Delete Me removes your

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businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's Odo.com. I want to talk a little bit about social media how it's changing food media though. We haven't talked much about food but you're not on TikTok but you have active on Instagram and Facebook and you became kind of a meme in the early days of the pandemic with this image of you drinking a giant Cosmo. I just did a podcast of Hillary Clinton and she's the meme queen.

I did uncreared by as I talked about how you really have to be all kinds of social media but

you also have to be authentic to it. So talk to me a little bit about how you think about social media and the incentive to constantly making new things and engaging with your audience. Well one thing is I do social media myself. It's not something I've farmed out to other people and the time during the pandemic actually was a perfect example of how I think about it because I was you know all of a sudden in our houses didn't know what was going to happen. Didn't know where

we even could have spent the days or how are we going to connect with people. And my

“publicist K Tyler from my publisher said you know you should probably tell people what to do with”

what they've bought in their pantry because we bought pots and beans and ramen and a canned goods and a lot of people didn't know what to do with it. And I said to her I don't know what to do with it. I mean I can think about what to do with it and I thought about it for a day and I thought you know what I think it's a really great thing to do. So I posted a picture of my pantry and I said if anybody has things in their pantry they don't know how to cook or don't know what to do with

let me know. And all of a sudden I mean first of all everybody was like thrilled that I had ramen

in my pantry what they didn't know is I'd never made it before so I had to figure out what to do with it.

So I made ramen chicken noodle soup and all of a sudden I found myself at home with a connection with other people which was so much fun for me and I actually didn't know the answers to the questions they were asking. So every day I would write a recipe for something that was from ingredients in my own pantry. And so I found that social media used that way was a way to connect with people who were home in their own homes, lonely, trying to figure out what to do, trying

to navigate how to cook with things that they didn't know usually use. And it really sustained

“me for a year. It was it was fantastic for both me and I think for the people that were following”

me that to me is the best use to social media. Right it's cooking for an online

audience different from cooking for a TV audience or a cookbook reader. Do you see differences? Cooking online. I'm not really an audience. When you tell me that. I mean remember I was sitting there with my own phone you know set up trying to cook something with I didn't have a you know food stylist prop stylist. I mean all the things that you have for TV somebody checking the audio. I was just doing it on my own and I actually started doing TV shows in my house in East

Hampton. So it set up a phone and then I go oh I have to do my hair. I have to do my makeup. I have to do the food styling. I have to get them you know get everything ready. And then by noon I was ready to actually do the show. And I'd be cooking and then after it was done I realized I'd taken a pot and put it right in front of a camera. So yeah next I had to do it all over again. I came to really appreciate my film crew. So it's hard but you know it was just it was a

challenge and I did it. It has some very similar to that it's your real life. Right it was. It was exactly. And it was a little messy. So every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Here's you ours. Oh good. Hi I know I'm Elisar Sontang food critic at the Washington Post and I am dying to know how you feel about the current landscape of cooking personalities and food influencers. You were obviously the blueprint for so many of these people. You had one of the early food shops.

You showed so many of us how to talk about hosting and our own cooking philosophies. Now there are so many people in this space. How do you feel about the way that the landscape has changed about the kind of access people have to this platform. Do you feel like it's had a flattening effect? Do you think it's done something good for the food world? Are there elements of it that you find frustrating or confusing or just downright bad? I would love to know. Thank you so

“much. Thank you. How about all of the above? How is our is amazing? I love that. I think there are”

people that love cooking and that are sharing their skills which is great. I think there are a lot of people who are influencers who are just scurting the surface and they're doing things that look nice but for what point? I mean if you're doing a fancy table setting which I hate this word table scape. If you're doing a table scape and they're big-to-all candles and there are things in the middle that are interrupting how people connect with each other. You're just doing it for show

are low. However you're doing it, I went to somebody's house the other day and he had a piece

of sculpture in the middle of the table. It wasn't even flowers. It was gorgeous but it was low

“and everybody could connect. That's what I look for and I think a lot of people who are doing”

like the influencer kind of idea don't really understand what entertaining is about. It's just about the show and it's very surface to me and I don't like that. What do you like when you see things? When people are happy doing things or interesting ideas? I mean there's one guy who just criticizes and very funny is a chef. Other people doing their recipes, some of which are horrifying, you know, it's somebody who haven't seen that. They're great. You know it's just it's so

easy to take potshots and people. It's so much harder to do the work and share something that you love

doing that you think somebody else would love doing as well. And there are too many people out there. It's kind of like you're driving in the car and somebody's screaming out the window but they don't have to actually deal with the fact that you're hurt and that you're a person and you have

“feelings. If you criticize somebody to their face, you have to deal with how their face looks”

afterwards. But if you're just driving by in the car and you yell at the window and you keep going, then you don't have to deal with that and that's just not right. Yeah that's a very Taylor Swift person. Now she was people who are doing things are the worst. I have to say I find people on my post, you know, when I'm doing Instagram, I find them incredibly positive and supportive and every once in a while, somebody has something really nasty to say and I just love that all

of my followers just go, they just pile on. If you want to talk about that, wait, go somewhere else. Yeah, like you know there's the Beyonce Beehive, do you have an inus form? What would you call your fan? I don't know. I haven't even thought about it. It has to have something to do with your tomato sauce. That's really, which I've made brilliantly, 412 times. At least it's the finest tomato sauce in the land. I know you know this. I know you do, but it is your greatest contribution to society.

But it's more butter, more butter, more butter and salt. It's also tomatoes. Is there any food defenses you like? I mean, do you watch regularly? Any food shows influencers online? Instagram. I mean, everyone's well. I'll watch somebody making something. I think it's interesting, but what you don't know is whether it's any good. And I have to say, I've made a lot of recipes from Instagram that have been just really terrible. I mean, there was one guy who was saying,

this is the full proof way to make a standing ribrosse. I mean, it's a huge piece of meat, and it's really expensive. And I thought, how could that possibly be? But I was going to test it. And when I hadn't got a standing ribrosse, and I cooked it according to his instructions,

“and it was so overcooked, it was inevitable. So I just, I think that what's important is that you”

know who you're listening to, who's work you're following, and that you trust there, sense of flavor and texture, and their instructions are accurate. And the people have actually done the work to make sure that you can use it the recipe successfully. There aren't that many people.

Yeah, I agree. I do Instagram recipes with my daughter who's seven. We always try them,

and I would say six out of seven suck. Like we just did the watermelon ice. You put the water melon in the fridge, and then you make ice cream out of it, and it was fun, but not delicious. Not delicious, exactly. And the bread has worked, the bread has worked, and the butter, making butter in a jar with a marble. That has worked beautifully. That is delicious. Delicious. But most of it is just heinous. But we have a good time, so that's really the point.

That's more important. Absolutely. Do you want to turn to looking for inspiration or making something new? Who inspires you? You know, it can be anywhere. I, you know, I can go to a restaurant and see something on a menu and think, oh, that's really interesting. Try it. Maybe come home and do my own twist on it. I can read cookbooks. There's an author whose work I just adorn. She's worked with me for a long time. Sarah Lee at Chase from Nantucket. She had a specially food store.

My late friend on a pump had a specially food store called Losen Fishes. I think people that have had specially food stores have the same sensibility I do. Things have to

gorgeous and look like what they are. But also, they're very often things that you can make in advance because the store is making it, putting in a refrigerator case or on a table, you're buying it, taking it home and heating it up, and that makes entertaining really easy using those recipes at home. So I find them inspiring. And you know what else I like? It's Ruth Rogers, books,

Rover Cafe. Amazing. She's a fabulous cook. Yeah, she has. She just recently texted me.

“Out of the blue. Out of the blue. Isn't that nice? I know it was. What does she want?”

Something I had done. She liked the podcast. It's how lovely. It happens all the time. Sometimes, especially when they're well known people like that, I don't believe it, and I think that's seven different people. That's something I would do too. Some celebrity am like as they wrote me with an AOL account and I didn't think it was them. And they got in touch with me another way, and I was like, "Why are you using AOL?" I don't understand. Anyway,

you pride yourself on testing your recipes up to 25 times before you share them. I do. This is what you're talking about. You're someone who got in the food business,

that any kind of restaurant or culinary school credentials that historically kept people

out of this line of work. What do you think makes someone an authority on food now and who? How do you decide who to trust? Do I like their sense of flavor and texture in a recipe? And are the recipes easy? A lot of people, you know, when I started out in writing cookbooks, I thought, "What makes me think I can write a cookbook?" I had especially food store, but I wasn't a chef. I ran the store. But I realized, as I started working,

that I was actually kind of the perfect person because I'm a home cook that's had much more experience than most people with home cooking. I think I trust people who use home ingredients and home equipment, things that you can actually do at home as opposed to a recipe. I mean, I saw a recipe once that was for cocktail they called for, I think, one ounce of orange vodka, an ounce of lemon vodka, an ounce of, I can't remember, some other kind of vodka.

And I thought, "That is so crazy." Now you have three bottles of vodka, flavored vodka. How about just regular vodka with a little orange, a little lemon, and a little lime in it? So I think, if I see a recipe with demiglass in it, you know, you don't have somebody over there

“making demiglass for you, you have to make the demiglass. So I just, I like home cook recipes.”

Yeah, one of the things, when I interviewed Steve Jobs once, he said, "It's complex to do simple things." That's a classic. It's not easy to do something simple.

Right. Yeah, it's a complex thing, and that's what he always--

Exactly. --for the simple. Speaking of not simple, the new thing is now AI recipes, but AI can't taste or smell or feel anything. That alone tastes recipes dozens of times, like you do. And what it does generate is a lot of slop, an actual slop, not just digital slop. Do you think AI can write a decent recipe? Because a lot of people, they'll put in ingredients, and I guess they're pulling from recipes. But how do you think about that?

And that AI's entry into the recipe game? I've never made an AI recipe, but I did once just to test it. Ask, please write a recipe for roast chicken in the style of Inaigarten. Just just to see what would happen. And I didn't make the recipe, but it was actually pretty good. I mean, it was absolutely a roast chicken in the style of Inaigarten with the kinds of words

that I use, but would it be better that a recipe that I tested over and over and over again, of course not. So who knows? I mean, maybe someday it'll write a better recipe than I do, but for right now I believe in people. Yeah, you're the OG. So you're known obviously for your impeccable and highly personal taste. And that's become a currency in age where social media and AI really flattens a lot of things. I think that's the problem. It gets very anodine.

What's your recommendation for people who are looking to develop their own style in taste? And where do people start? What a great question. How does develop your own style in taste? I think you look back at things that you liked when you were younger before you had these shudds. I should do this and I should do that. What did you used to do when you were 10? And what did you like when you were then and then developed from there?

“You have to really listen to your inner voice and pay attention to that and not try and be”

just like that. You know, they grow on TikTok or that recipe that somebody posted. Just

If it makes you happy it'll probably make other people happy as well. And it doesn't start,

“you know, I'm looking at now doing a cookbook that's the best of barefoot. But 30 years later”

from my first book and I go back to the original recipes and you know what? They're good.

But I can make them better now because I've learned so much in 30 years of that making something that's delicious and simple that has great flavor and great texture and it's kind of fun to update them. So the other day I made a fatata from family style and I added a little panchetta and I added a little more liquid to it and it was better and it was really fun to do. Is it a ionist version of aina? Are you going to update them? All of them? Exactly. I mean, I've learned things in 30

years and I want to share them. Do I have to do anything to my tomato sauce? Please say now because

it's fantastic when you're talking a little imperfect. There's nothing to be done. My very last question, what do you have for lunch? What am I having for lunch soup? I love soup. So I have, I don't know, I have a couple of pots of soup at home. I like right now I would like chair to cornchowder because the corn is so delicious and I love the salmarejo which is like a pureed gaspatcha with a little bread in it to thicken it, which is just fabulous. Good summer soup.

“Excellent. I think I may have to go not make some. I'll go buy some at a specialty retailer. Anyway,”

Aina, thank you so much for your time. I'm so excited for your podcast. I'm excited to have you at Box Media. You'll love it. Thank you. I'm just so happy to meet you and to talk to you and it's been just great fun. Today's show is produced by Nishat Kerwam, Michelle Aloy, Katherine Millsop, Madeline Leplant, Dubi, Megan Bernie, and Kaylin Lynch, special thanks to Katherine Barner and Lissa Soap.

Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Juan and our theme music is by Tracodemix. If you're already following this show, you are surrounded by people you love and who love you. If not, get that sculpture out of the metal of your table setting. Go wherever you listen to podcast search for on with Kerris Wisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kerris Wisher from podium media New York Magazine, the box media podcast network and us will be back on Thursday with more.

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