Jessica Tarlov on Winning Arguments and Elections

our vibe. Yeah, yeah, I would say so. I mean, you've been together so long. I know.

New and sparkly some days, but sometimes, just not his cara. So he hates it. He hates the idea that he has to keep going back to me. No. Oh, he does. It's okay. I don't care.

“I'm very flex. I'm very bendy. Yeah, that's what I think of when I think of you. I'm so”

flexible. I'm so flexible. I'm so sure. Bendy is different than flexible. Hi, everyone from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Cara Swisher and I'm Cara Swisher. Jessica Tarloff says that she has, quote, "the coolest job in media for a liberal." This may come as a surprise to a lot of people, including myself, as the lone liberal co-host of the five on Fox News, she gets interrupted a lot. Nevertheless,

she's outspoken in self-assured, presenting arguments based on research and data. And she often wins the arguments on that show, despite being a four to one competition. That makes sense once you find out she has a PhD in political science from the London School of Economics. When she's not working at Fox, Jessica also hosts the podcast "Raging Moderates" from the Vox Media Podcast Network with my pivot co-host, Scott Galloway. Now, she's got a new book coming

out, called "I Disagree," winning arguments without losing friends. In it, she talks about her surprising career path and shares strategies for finding common ground with others to her time of intense polarization. She also offers research-backed insights on elections and political strategy based on her years as a political strategist and polster. I have wanted to talk to Jess for a long time. I wrote her when she was in arguments with Jesse Waters. I'm sure, and said, "I don't

know how you do this, and I've gotten to know her better over the years." I've wanted to have Jess on for a long time. The Fox News is not allowed her to come on my podcast and different things like that. I don't know why that is, but I'm thrilled to have her here now. I think she's a really smart person in a very difficult situation over there at Fox, and she manages to articulate and when people over, and I find that really interesting, although I don't know how she does it,

I would be perplexed every single day and rage, really. I would be raging. And so I really admire it. I want to hear from her about what she thinks about. She's not a moderate voice, exactly, although she is on that show, raging moderates. But more of someone who is trying to be more

“common-sensical, and I think it's important when we talk about that. Our expert question today”

comes from Anthony Scaramucci, founder of Skybridge Capital, who in 2017, of course, famously spent 10 days as White House Communications Director, so stick around. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting and other for inventory and other for sales and somehow, none of them ever talk to each other. That's where Odu comes in. In an all-in-one business management

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Physicians and writers I admire. So grab a snack, pull up a chair, and join us. You can watch by searching for a happy hour with on a new tube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Don't we only have more fun?

Jessica, thank you for coming on on. Thank you for having me. Finally, I get to talk to you.

“What is the problem? Why don't they let you talk to me?”

Carah, we talk all the time. I know we do. I know you're on Scott's podcast. We'll get to that.

She's written this wonderful book and we're going to talk about getting along, which I have

“questions about. I know. Questions and skepticism. Yeah, exactly. And so, actually, let me”

start over that. Why this take? Well, the take is just directly correlated to my experience, and I feel like having the perch that I do that I can offer some insight into a world that most people are just studying from the outside. And when I decided to call it, I disagree with the subtitle, winning arguments without losing friends. I knew that there would be pushback, especially from the left, well, what if I want to lose friends? What if these people are not deserving of

my friendship? What if I feel healthier without them? And the book is not about forcing anyone

into something that they feel uncomfortable doing, but is a direct reaction to the amount of

outreach that I got from people across the political spectrum, who said, "I don't know how you do it." And that's people who love Jesse Waters and Greg Gutfeld, where they just say, "How do you put up with this shit?" Well, how do you put up with this shit? But also, I would like to be able to put up with a little bit more shit in my life, too. Because you're giving me a right, I see here. Well, I wanted it to be a survival guide if you choose to have these contentious conversations,

because I think there's obviously a lot of social science to it, you know, how we hear and process information that we disagree with. But in light of the 2024 election, I think it's

pretty clear to all of us that if you don't go into uncomfortable spaces, you're going to lose.

“Right. And politically, at least. Yeah. Well, that's what I care about most. I care about my friendships”

and my relationships, but I see myself as an advocate and someone that wants to win elections, because I think outcomes are a better one, Democrats are in office for the economy, for a health care, for all the stuff that really matters to people. So you've said that your job on the five isn't necessarily to change minds, rather to open minds, and that a lot of the legacy media is still to understand the conservative ecosystem. Talk about what you think people are

missing and how it's important to understand that ecosystem and view it with an open mind. There's still this idea floating around about legitimacy or legitimizing and, you know, where do you choose to go platforming? Like, I'm not going on Hassan Piker's stream because I don't want a platform. But you know what I mean? And I just think that that's a little shit at this point.

“Like, the world goes on without you. And it doesn't mean that you have to have these conversations.”

You know, I don't want to go on and have a chat with Nick Fuentes or talk her Carlson. I don't regret anyone who is going to do that and stand their ground and actually push and try to get under the hood of what those ideas are. But the 2024 election, you know, in every single autopsy that we saw, one of the main findings was that there were all of these persuadable voters, a lot of them very casual, that were consuming media in a totally different way than

we thought that they were in part of this MAGA drum beat where they were listening to Charlie Kirk and Benny Johnson all day, that they were going to places that are a more culture driven, even a flagrant podcast. I was at a conference talking about this issue and the group, the Democratic representatives were saying that they're just desperate to get on culture podcasts. They don't actually want to go on anywhere that has to do with politics anymore. And that those

podcasts are smartly so like speed, for instance, don't want them on there because you don't want to complicate that space for people who are actually coming to enjoy them. So I fundamentally feel like the way that we've been looking at the ecosystem is wrong and this idea of who the gatekeepers are or that you are a gatekeeper as to what gets to infiltrate people's minds or have a real effect on their lives just doesn't exist anymore and we're playing by a new set of jungle rules,

frankly, not even to mention what's going to happen with AI's impact on these elections, you know, it's starting obviously. So that's kind of how I see the landscape. So the debates on if I do get heated and really it's all directed at you and your coes really like to interrupt you. Let's listen to a clip from April, you're discussing accusations of fraud against the civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center with great gut fell

than guest host Lisa Kennedy Montgomery. The DOJ has since indicted the former SPLC official. Let's listen. I don't see how we get from we flipped people within these organizations and paid them for it to white supremacy is made up and that it's a complete fallacy and it's not just

Chris Ray said this. That's BS. Go play that with us. That's really a quote. So listen,

“I know one believed it. They only said it. No one believed it. You're right. No one believed it,”

but it's just what the guy said under oath in testimony. This is a procedure that law enforcement does on every level where they flip people within organizations. They're not gone. No, but they take information and they feed it. He said it. They feed it back to local and including the FBI and then we know that the FBI does as they work with the informants all the time. So that's the problem. Yes, that is the problem. In fact, that is one of the tools that the mainstream

left media is trying to use to defend Southern Poverty Law Center saying that well, they were doing

what the FBI does. So talk about this encounter. It was incredibly frustrating. I don't, you know,

and they, someone did it the other day where they just set a fall so it and then just said, look it up, Google it and it was wrong. So would it talk about your strategy? Because these are

“techniques that people use, you're wrong and then don't back it up or, you know, look it up or”

here's the real fact when it's not the real fact. So talk a little bit about your strategy. My strategy is to have a very serious game plan when I come in and nothing will get in the way of getting through it. And I have over the years figured out different kind of rhetorical devices including saying, oh, no, no, you're right. There's no evidence of this, which does indicate to

the viewer that obviously that isn't how I feel and that maybe if they are so inclined, you could go

take a look at what we're talking about. And this gets to the opening minds versus changing them. Because if you plant some seed of doubt in there that what they're hearing over and over again, because it is the reinforcement of it might be wrong, then perhaps at some point they'll check it out or it will run counter to their own experience, which is how you can do it about things like, you know, goods and services, healthcare, things like that. With the SPLC, obviously they're not

going to run into them in their real life. But you know, you just have to really believe in the things that you're saying and be backed up by data. And then although I've been moaned the impact of our algorithms on a lot of our lives, it does help in these instances where a clip of me saying this for instance, which was totally true, and the FBI has worked with the SPLC for a very long time. And I'm not here to justify everything that the SPLC does. I'm sure that there's some stuff

that I wouldn't be thrilled about. Like I don't love the idea of paying KKK members. But I understand if they are back channeling information that that can be helpful. But the internet then does their thing and the clip lives on in a different way, not only feeding people who vote like you and me, but also popping up in a middle of the road person's time. Right. Right. So they can, so the technique there for I just read is put, put down in people's mind

about what's being said essentially. Sowing a bit of doubt, but then also making sure that what you're saying is very data based and not feelings based. So at the end of each chapter,

“that's why I created those tips boxes because I really wanted people to be able to walk away”

with tangible takeaways and say, oh, I could do that. And for this, for instance, one of them is to think in averages and not anecdotes. So you're trying to insert like facts into the situation. And even if even if they're arguing back at you, now tense moments like this, tend to go viral as clips, of course. And this is what people do. And they're often reposes in San Diego. It's like, great gut-filled erupts or great gut-filled shuts down, Jessica Tarlove.

And you make a distinction about, and I'm going to quote you how most partisans consume you in clips and those who watch the full show. What's the difference? Why does it matter? And how does that repackaging of clips' social media play into, I guess, Fox is broader strategy? And how do you then counter that with the kind of tips you're giving in your book? Well, if you're purely going on clips and the media that feast off of those clips, like either the pro-democracy media

and the mightest touches of the world, or the right does the same thing, you would think that great gut-filled and I utterly despise each other and cannot be in the same room. That it's like you walk in one minute before the show and sprint out the other side. If you watch the whole show, you see in the back half that there are a lot of segments that are focused on more light things.

are the highest rated. So our last segment of the show, which is called one more thing, where we

can share something personal, or we do a lot of stuff revolving around pets because everyone loves pets,

“people love that the most because that's where most of the personality comes through. And I think”

that that's important, not because everybody has to be best friends, but because it is possible to have functioning relationships with people with whom you vehemently disagree with and find a way to a place where you are not going absolutely insane. And I'm very clear in the book, and certainly, you know, anyone who talks to me about this, that I put the burden of maintaining those relationships to a large degree on my own shoulders, that I know that it's up to me. If we have a

particularly contentious back and forth on the show, I decide what happens in the commercial break.

I can either be normal and talk about kids, or whatever else is going on in life, or I can continue it. And I choose to save that for times when it really matters to me and where I feel like some line has been crossed. Well, given example, this using the technique. I mean, one could argue like, you know, gibbets with fascists, right? Like, I'm thinking Jennifer Welch's book is like, not today fascists, essentially. Yeah, Jennifer Welch's brand of politics is a lot more

rough and tumble than mine. She also occupies a very different space, and I would argue is reaching a very different audience. I mean, she's not converting people necessarily. She's

“reinforcing something. I think their voice, hers and Angie is, you know, coming from Oklahoma City.”

It's very important to know what goes on in those blue dots in red states. And obviously, their backgrounds are very interesting. But it's a totally different ball game. And I mean, they've created this huge platform for themselves, but that kind of language, I mean, you just wouldn't use that in a place of work. And I have taken to heart how many Americans have shown up at the polls and voted for people that we have called fascists and Nazis for a very long time. So obviously,

they don't think that that it works. Or they think economic policy is more important or an immigration policy that involves a closed border. And so I don't want to be a Debbie Downer about everything. And, you know, I like to throw a heymaker every once in a while, but people are much more culturally conservative than we thought that they were. And actually more fiscally liberal, which I find very interesting, that you could actually be using more of that language, like how John Ossoff is talking

about the Epstein class and the corruption class and the billionaire James Taloreco as well. I didn't actually expect that would be tolerated at this level that it has, the disparity has gotten so wide and income inequality is so enormous that someone from a state like Georgia could be talking the same as Bernie Sanders, essentially. But when it comes to cultural issues, that's just not where people are. And I know, and I get into this a lot with some of my more progressive friends about,

you know, trans athletes, for instance, and you know, you give an inch they're going to take

“a mile. Why do you even need to talk about what you're trying to have 10 people on the NCAA level?”

And my point is always been, we can't go around telling people who are essentially running a

sanity check on us. Like, do you think there's a biological advantage to someone who went through repuberty as a man? Yeah, no matter how much gender affirming care you have had, there remains certain advantages. And if you can't say that, then they look at you like you've lost the plot. This is how Andy Bashir deals with it. Right. Right. I get that. We're going to deal with trans issues later. I have some, I think they've made it into a bigger deal than it is. They absolutely have. So if you just say,

no, I won't, I guess it's like, I, I, you're not legitimate or I'm not fighting the cats and eating the dogs to me at this point. Speaking of what you were talking about, every episode get a question from an outside expert. Let's listen to yours. Hey, guys, Anthony Scaramucci here found her a sky bridge, but also the host of the rest is politics U.S. And a man that has been fired faster than any Fox news host in history. So Jess, I have ruined more than one Thanksgiving dinner conversation.

So here's my question. What do you say to the uncle who doesn't want to have the civil conversation, who just wants the win? How do you talk that person down, Jess? That's the question.

mine. I was wondering who's going to get, um, so there's a lot in the book about this and I

practice it for basically listening to the other four of my co-hosts, which is the lost art of

listening. And people are very desperate to be heard and for it to look like you're actually

“processing what they're saying. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with it or go along”

with even any aspect of it. But too much of our political discourse and especially in these family gatherings, because I've had this back and forth with, I have an uncle who voted for Trump because of Israel. Is that, you know, one of the big fissures going on now on our side of the fence. And I realized I was just too quick to cut them off all the time or to bring something else in that I thought counter to its point. And when I sat back and let him go, I realized actually

that he started arguing against himself without even noticing it because he started bringing in

other facts on the ground where he would say, well, but of course it hasn't paned out when it comes to the economy. And actually what's going on in Iran, you know, I'm a little bit concerned, kind of like the Mark Levin set of concerns about the war. And so letting somebody get it out and

“be heard, I think it's the first thing that you have to do. And it also really frustrates them”

when you are calm. It makes, they get more enjoyment out of it if it turns hot on both sides. And the same thing is true on the five. If you notice maybe a few times a year, I actually got really like flustered and angry and, you know, like beating the table, but in general, I'm just pretty cool about it, which I think diffuses the situation. You can't send that signal to them like when I say, oh, you know, you're right where they know, I obviously don't think that,

but that people just feel better when they have been heard and they are more likely to hear you. If you have afforded them that space. Now, on the opposite side, that means you facilitating the comedy and not them, right? Like, on one part of it, I, I had gotten an argument. I was in Kentucky, and I was talking about text off there. And, you know, immediately it started to get into liberal leads from coast to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said to my, I'm just like, you know,

you don't like us normal people. And I put my head up. I said, I'm a fucking normal person. Like,

why do you get to win the normal fight, right? Like, I noticed I'm here and you're never in

San Francisco. So why I'm here? Like, why do I have to come here? And why do you get to be called the normal person? And we then ended up having an interesting conversation. I'm like, you're not interested in my life in any way whatsoever or what I have to think. And so I think we spent a lot of time coddling. Yeah, these groups. I mean, and I think part of the problem, you know, I, for you to deal with on your show. And again, it was interesting, you know,

you're trying to get to something. At some point, it's like arguing with someone who will never ever change. Do you feel that these techniques make people change? I've seen evidence of it, and not only behaviors in terms of how they deal with me, but in little bits of information that I'm either talking about on-air or even in commercial breaks seeping into commentary. I mean, much, hey, in the last few weeks has been made of how lucid,

Jesse Waters seems about Abdul al-Sayed or about John Osaf or Natalie Hart, right, that he was like, I'm not going to pretend that I'm so offended that John Osaf, you know, said that about her. And this happened also a couple of years ago about Westmore, because I'd been talking about Westmore a lot in commercial breaks and pointing out, you know, he's out there at the tailgate, because, you know, they're obsessed with the definitions of masculinity, right? And how real men

don't vote for Democrats, and then, you know, Hassan Piker on the jump-o-tron in a speedo or whatever is going on at their conferences. But what I was talking about in the breaks and drawing Jesse's attention to, like John Osaf, how much work he does in his district, and that's why he was getting these crossover endorsements from Republican mayors, he brought it up on a day actually, I wasn't even on the show. And I do think that that's a result of, I mean, we're in this

“contained environment, and everyone, no one else's life is going to look like mine, right?”

It no one who's reading this book has this job, and I'm compensated to go to work. So I'm not trying to make this out, like it's the same thing as having to deal with Anthony's uncle necessarily, but the more time we spend in their spaces and talking about not just quote unquote normal

Like they would still tell you, or some would, that like trans issues is going to be on top of

the ballot, or that even immigration is going to be in the same way. People might have been holding up mass deportation now signs, but in reality they wanted to close border, right? And they got that, and now they can see what Stephen Miller is doing, and the terror that ICE is wreaking all over the country. I guess it's more like, why are we in the business of educating

“because they win elections? That's really, really. You have no choice. That's honestly how I feel about it.”

I happen to also get along with them. I've known them a very long time. You know, families, I mean, you've worked at huge organizations. You know about relationships that you have with people with different sets of beliefs, ideological backgrounds, but we have to win elections. There is no change that is possible without owning those seats. You know, you can listen to Congressman Garcia talk about all the plans for what's going to happen with oversight, right? The investigations

that they're going to do. That doesn't happen unless we win and honestly win big. It has to be too big to rig because they're going to try for that as well. And I just, if you're not in the arena and you're not competing, and there are different ways to do this. You know, this is like a full body contact approach that I have, but even people who are journalists like what you've been doing over the years, right? You know, putting these ideas and, you know, essentially starting counter-culture

movements against the way that society is moving vis-a-vis tech. You're doing that through your interviews. You're talking about making the argument, right? And that's-- Well, making the argument but in the places that matter, right? There's a lot of blue sky bubbling that goes on. I would agree. I would agree. Yeah. And I'm not here to throw stones at anybody.

“If that's what you want to do, that's your business. It just is not changing any hearts and minds.”

And also, I think that it's reinforcing a reality to yourself that is inconsistent with real life. True. I do think the other members of the five are incredibly cynical. I think it's a performative game with a lot of them. Some of them believe it. I think a lot of them are playing a game. And it's of super dangerous game. That's why it's like why you've been engaged with people who were so super thick because they get through to people. That's your point. Can I just say something about

that? So first of all, I do think that in general conservatives believe in more of this than

you would think. Because there's like this normal C-test that you kind of put out there where you say, okay, well, we're all reading the same jobs report, right? Or we're all seeing the same GDP report. And it's quite obvious what's going on here. You know, what a how we want to do it. Like the

“markers of how the war in Iran is going, et cetera. And then something that I've learned over the”

years, even before I was on the five and obviously spending most of my time with this set group of people, but just floating around and meeting different folks and coming on their shows and talking to them, is that there is a much bigger, I don't know, of permission structure is the right term to use for this. But they are so much more willing to excuse things that may not be going well or that they don't like in service to the greater goal, which we don't do, right? We're like

public and hallmark for a long time. Totally, but it's funny because they think that we fall in line. It's so funny because I'm like, if you would be doing a lot better, actually, if we would stop sniping at each other like this, but they just to some degree don't care if they believe in the larger set of goals or frankly in the person. I mean, the personal faith that they have in Donald Trump is like nothing that I've seen. There is also, you know, when I started seeing it

for the first time, I studied propaganda in college. I was my area. I was like, wow, they're using

all the propaganda techniques. It's really interesting to watch the reinforcement, the constant repetition, the entertainment, the demon is, you know, it's the same techniques. And so, part of me wonders what they actually believe versus what's a performance. And maybe it blends like you said, it blends into everything. But a lot of the time, I find it deeply, deeply cynical, especially since most of them live in very fancy places and away from most of the people they

support to be hanging out with, you know, they're not people of the people would be, well, everyone is a, you know, upper middle class to mega rich person that gets to wear HD here and make up, you know, for a living. It's rarefied air, but it doesn't mean that it isn't communicating a belief system that does resonate with, yes, yes, roobs or whatever, you know, and that's how they

good argument? I suppose Obama, like right, there's a positive come into our bigger place where

we're not hating each other kind of thing. I think there's a real resonant. I think that that's the opposite side of America, which is there's a hate side and it's really strong and a fear side. And

“then there's a hope side that does, that's why Obama resonated. You make it a good argument for things”

for the way things could be for everybody. Totally. And that's how you have miracles and that's right. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Pebble. If you're a founder or HR leader, building a great team is the fun part, but nowadays that search for great people is global. It's just how business

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get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too that's QUINCE.com/charac. Let's get into this what's going on. Last week the Republican Bardia had a convention in Dallas or what's been called Trump a Palooza. I wish we would stop making those things and President Trump announced that he would give a quote $5,000 Trump dividend to every adult citizen in the US if Republicans win in November. This would cost more than

“$1 trillion. He's made similar promises many times. Many talk a little bit about this because I think”

he's trying to counter the idea that the economy sucks and we need more money or you're taking

our money. You just a second ago said they will take his word for everything. Is that shifting

believe in him and that he is stewarding the country and the right direction. Listen, Jesse made fun of

it. He said it was akin to an enticement like when you go on a date with someone right and you're kind of hedging like you know. And so in that sense he knows exactly what it is that this is in going to happen and that it feels like you're at a call at a bribe which is what I was calling

“it and you would call it and any sane person would call it. I think largely though that people know”

this is not happening and that none of this has happened. The tariff dividend check, the savings from the health care, there was one other too. Yeah, there were a couple. So I think this is the phase where there is an opportunity for a big democratic win in the midterms because people are glazed over to this. You know, the ratings were worse than the average night on Fox. So when Trump was talking the 10 pm hour, if God felt had run, it would have done better. Then and which I think it's saying

something. Yeah, he also mockingly talked about affordability and said prices were dropping. They are not. Is it wearing off because it's interesting how much were Republicans campaigning in bumper stickers as you've put it and what effect does that have? And especially when you're making an argument, you're books about making an argument. What is the argument here? He's lying, which is something you can say any given day and twice on Tuesday. Yeah, I mean, if you're making the counter

argument against Trump right now, you could say, you know, there's a laundry list of promises that he has made to you that should fill up your pocket after he has robbed you of what was in your pocket in the first place. But without a strong counter, i.e. what you are going to get if you vote for the other guy, I think that you have a big electoral problem on your hands. And I know, you know, I have spoken to leadership about this. I'm sure that you have as well. You know, you talk to

people who, you know, are very influential on Capitol Hill. And I've said until you have the three policies that define the midterm elections for Democrats, where it's not just I'm going to reverse everything that that guy did. It has to be a positive affirmation of what the future could look like.

And I've made up numbers. Like, I don't know if 10 million is the right number. But why are we

not saying 10 million affordable housing units will be built? Right? Like, there has to be some smart reforms to Obamacare, not just putting the subsidies back in. You know, because Obamacare was still too expensive for people. It's obviously way too expensive now. You know, are you going to do remember from the first term where Trump said for every new regulation? We're going to cut 10.

“That's what mom Donnie is doing here in New York. People are going bananas for it. Right. Right. Right.”

Like do our tick. So when you're in the, those are my bumpers. So I disagree isn't enough. It's I disagree and is what you're saying. Yeah. It's a full argument. I just wanted I disagree because that is the baseline reality of majority of the conversations that I'm having with my colleagues. And there are different ways to back into that. There are different tools that you can use, you know, different all of branches. I call it the soft start. You know, where you have to find some way to

create connective tissue, not only for the people you're sitting next to, but to signal to, you know, three and a half to four million people that you're not there, just to explode bombs and collect a paycheck and get out of there. Right. And be sort of the liberal voice. They sing a little bit of voice. Let me do another topic. Then speakers include Vice President J.D. Vance. He touted Trump's immigration

enforcement efforts. You were critical of blue city mayors who refuse to cooperate with ICE when

it comes to quote, turning over people who have committed crimes on American soil. But I just spoke with three Democratic mayors and they're concerned in part because ICE is turning people with no criminal records, which has been well documented and well reported because they're running out of

“people. Like, you know, if essentially that's what it is. Well, when you have a 3000 person a day”

quota, you're going to start picking up the wrong guys. You're not going to find all those criminals. There's not that many of them. So break down the criticism and wear mayors refusing to turn over people who've committed crimes on U.S. soil. I have yet to see that. It was more about it being part of the way that we talk about immigration and ICE right now. One example, and I think Kathy Hockel is doing an awesome job. I feel like she has really, I mean, you do remember,

I guess a year ago, eight months to a year ago, when there were real conversations around, if she had a challenger, maybe she wouldn't make it through and recruiting Richie Torres. And I think she's just been a total badass. She handled mom Donnie's campaign and election. I think perfectly. But one example that I would use is what happened to Sheridan Gorman, who is a New Yorker. She 18 years old from Mike Lawler's district Republican,

Jessica Gorman, Sheridan Gorman's mother, has spoken at. And it got really testing.

And Congresswoman Jaya Paul was like, we just keep doing this over and over. And there's a grieving mother sitting there. Now, do I think that she's being used as a political pawn? Yes,

“to some degree. Do I think that that matters in the optics of it and in those kinds of moments?”

Not so much. And so, there, I felt like there was an opportunity, like we saw, Tim Walls take after the murders of Renee Goethe and Alex Pretty to signal the places where you think there can be valuable cooperation and that you will call Tom Holman up right now. And you will say, let's figure this out because we can't have another Sheridan Gorman or another Lincoln Riley. So that's more what I was talking about when I say this kind of cooperation. Right. A lot

of it is a messaging signal because for people who do care about this and we all do, no one wants these young women slaughtered by people who have no business being in this country. Like, if you got in here illegally and you want to start a new life and contribute, which most of them do and

pay into social security, I think immigrants are one of the more incredible facets of our society,

not just as human beings, but also obviously what they do for the economy. But we continue to talk about it in the wrong way. And just the drum beat of abolish ice, or I'm not talking to those guys, the side by side with a grieving mother, it doesn't make us look that great. Now, is that swaying people, are they showing up to vote purely based on that? No. And you live in a big loose interest. But it doesn't, yeah, sure. Yeah, they should be very, they should be very ahead. They should be

extraordinarily. Yes, a lot of that, I think is also just quality of life, like people's economic, yeah, they feel, yeah, they're poorer than they were and wages are not going up in all of

that stuff. So it makes it harder for you to say, yeah, actually, I think Republicans are better on this.

But I would say if you go down the line reputationally and ask people, you know, do you think that Democrats are taking this as seriously as you would like to, they would still say, no, and they would still say that these DAs are too liberal. You know, that's why people love Dan Lurry and your beloved San Francisco. You know, Mamdoni, who is one of the smarter politicians that we have certainly, you know, it's very clear why he is making sure that he stands shoulder to shoulder with Jessica

Tish at every opportunity, right, to say, I'm going to give you universal childcare, pre-K, parents take a, I mean, you guys, moms with young kids, that gift of four hours of free baby setting, just life-changing stuff. And we avail ourselves to it right now, even at this moment. But one of the things that you noted before is this trans issue, a video montage of the convention, highlighted Trump's efforts to ban transgender athletes and women's wars, roughly 1% of Americans

are trans and very few in sports. They remain the target of Fox News and the GOP more broadly. I want to play a clip of the conversations that have with the Bullwerke, Sarah Longwell, discussing this issue. This is an enormously common response that I get in focus groups of Trump voters, actually, where they're like, they're mad about the war on because they know gas prices are high. They know prices are high in general, so they're upset. Maybe about tariffs, but this

is some of the little bit, you know what? He's got trans people out of sports. And so it's, it's okay.

“What is the best way to respond to these attacks on trans rights and win elections?”

Using your techniques, the patented techniques. I mean, honestly, I don't want to see my time to Andy Bashir, but having Andy Bashir answer this is, you know, the best way forward, he runs a ruby red state and people love him because of how he can talk to about reality. And compassion, and making sure that nothing that goes on vis-a-vis the trans community turns into an erosion of civil rights. And that's where I think that you have to be here. I think that you

have to call out the common sense position. This is an 80/20 issue that too many Democrats, I think beholden to special interest groups or some, you know, fringe position were afraid to say, yes, I know that there is a biological advantage, but over my dead body, will I let this turn into an erosion of civil rights, especially for kids that just want to play soccer with their friends? And drawing that line between what is competitive and when there is money on the line and just

“kids being kids, I think is where you have to go from this, but it does start with a recognition of”

the fact that yes, there may only be 10 NCAA athletes. And one of the, I say, more seminal experiences that I had vis-a-vis this issue is I moderated a conversation at the 92nd Street Y

And four was a woman who is also an academic, she transitioned later in life, both competitive runners.

“And the trans woman acknowledges the biological advantage. She just doesn't think that it should”

affect what she calls meaningful competition. So she has shifted it from our traditional understanding of competition to say, does this meaningfully make a difference when you think of the trickle down, right, that there are anti-trans bills in dozens of states as a result in the Supreme Court cases. And that to me feels like the more honest way to have this conversation and, you know, she's saying, take it for me is someone who lived into adulthood as a man that there

are these differences persist right in bone density and, you know, speed advantage. You know, who actually makes a great argument, you've all Harari and Sapiens. He said there's male and female, but then there's woman and man and those are different things. A man can be a woman, you know, but there are male and female, but it was interesting. The fact that it became a story, you know, it started with bathrooms and it didn't work.

And North Carolina said, well, actually, we don't give a fuck. Yeah, it didn't work in bathrooms, but it did work in sports, which is interesting. And it's so good. Well, but don't you think that it actually, it worked in sports and by extension in this idea about undocumented trans people in prisons because of a box that Kamala Harris checked,

but that it was more an economic argument. Everything is about fairness. Yeah, I'm feeling that the game is rigged against you. And they, they, them, had was about the economy more than it was about transgender people.

“That's an interesting thing. So I think that if you frame everything, like John Os Office doing,”

like James Tallarico is doing, Josh Turck, you know, some of our next-gen best communicators, they're understanding that the nitty gritty of what happened with Leia Thomas and Riley Gaines doesn't matter as much as you being able to tell people, I want life in America to be fair. And that's everything from how you can do economically to what goes on in your kid's schools. We'll be back in a minute.

When you hear an old Motown song, do you ever think about just how good it makes you feel? Well, that was not an accident. I'm Will Anderson, and this week on my music history podcast, the Monday Music Club, we're diving into the early years of Motown records and how they crafted hits with factory-level precision. With the help of Otis Williams from the legendary temptations, we walk through the entire creative process and history of the label. It's founder Barry Gordy

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check out this week's episode, just search for Monday Music Club right now wherever you get your podcast. Here's a little preview of the episode. HTH had written the song and it was ready to be recorded, but as Otis tells us, it was originally intended for someone else. So like any good millennial, I have a love-hate relationship with Gen Z. It's the phenomenon rattling millennials. They just look at you. They want something bigger themselves,

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candidates who are offering new bold ideas in the absence of those ideas from establishment Democrats. This week on America actually, Gen Z researcher Rachel Jemphasa joins us to separate Gen Z fact versus fiction. It's not rocket science, and this is, you know, I keep saying, like, "Gunkwaters aren't that complicated after all. It's pretty simple." Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

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is where the journey starts. New episodes release every Monday, watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. You describe Horace Bowling as a hamster wheel and say that, quote, "nothing about polling is inevitable," polls are getting beaten up by a lot of people.

What should you be paying attention to? Is it these prediction markets? Where should people go?

Because they do still rely on these things or sort of want to know what's happening. I thought that the prediction markets are going to be influential on around a lot longer than now think they will be. You know, the whole narrative around Francesca Hong, the Wisconsin candidate for governor and what happened even in the primary and Michigan with Haley Stevens, and I've do all say add, "People started to take prediction markets as polling," right? And they said,

"Oh, there's a 99% chance of the outcome they can happen," which isn't at all what the polls were saying. And then there's also the question of the methodology of these polls and understanding like who has an A rating and a B down to who has an F rating. And I think that can be really

dangerous in a someone who worked in polling and likes to pay attention to methodologies and the

rating systems. My hope for people and what I argue and I disagree is that you spend time looking at trend lines versus what can be often an outlier result. And so if a flare goes up and you say, "Oh,

“that's kind of interesting," right, that we found this and that's how it gets onto shows like”

onto pivot, right? Where there's this crazy kind of counterculture finding, like, is this start of something new and then to stick with it? And that's why the daily jockying over the horse race isn't that useful and people who actually run campaigns, like if you listen to a panel with everyone, you know, from a Dan Feifer to Tony Fabrizio, they would say, like, in the last few days, you just got to get out there, right? You got to knock on doors and push people to vote.

So my point was to help people see polling for what it is, which is a snapshot of a moment in time and then to think of it as a broader trend line or a relationship to other data points where you can then build a fuller picture of what's going on. But, you know, I know that there are people who see what I do on the five and my co-hosts will make fun of me about it. Like, "Oh, Jessica,

“if you want to a poll for that," and yes, I always have a poll for that, but I want to make sure”

that it's part of a broader story on what's going on. Right, but is there one that you find worth reading? I mean, when they say the poll for that, they're essentially saying, "Oh, stop messing with us with facts, hate facts." Yes, but then it's fun to push back on that. Like, "Oh, I'm sorry, you don't like that." Like, Greg and I have been having this back and forth lately where he just says, "I don't know who that is when I bring someone up." And I'm like, "Well, it's on you,

actually, to figure out who this person is that's an elected office or running for a, you know, a big position." But there are also different ways of doing politics and that's part of what I argue and I disagree and my experience, which is there are a lot of people who want to get their politics in, you know, a PhD, you know, bow box, which is how I do it. Right, where I say, like, I've scanned all the right material. And these are the main points that I've picked out. And then

other people want to hear from folks that they like, right, or who see the world in a way that's similar to theirs. And we can sit here and bitch about it and say, like, I don't like that this is the reality of how some people are getting their news or how they see the world. But that's life. And this is the way the game is played right now. Yeah, or you'll see figure out a better way to do it, speaking of which Democrats are going on Fox. You know, you sort of take your thing in addition to

regulars like Pete Buttigieg and Gavin Newsom. We're now seeing people like Democratic Senate Canada, Abdul El Siyad. He didn't really spar with Jesse Waters. I think Jesse Waters fell deeply in love with him. It was very interesting. It was a very cute 25 minutes. It was really interesting.

“He's so easy. That's what I thought. What a put a pushover. He has for like a swall man who's very”

charming. Puck noted the episode performed very well. Total audience was up 15% over the quarterly average. So obviously, it's good for Fox to start to embrace Democrats in a weird way. Because

out of it? Definitely. What to explain? I mean, I think that there are two schools of thought. So

there's one set of reasons to go on Fox, which is or in conservative media. This could happen anywhere, right? That you go on a podcast and get a clip of you explaining something to Joe Rogan. I guess I should be calling conservative now. You know, I don't really know. He's whatever Rogan is. But so you can get a clip that can go viral and you can fundraise off of it. And that works. You know, there is a reason that Pete Buttigieg, when he introduced himself

at the DNC in 2024, he said something like, you know, "Hi, I'm Pete. You might recognize me from Fox News." Right. Right. Right. Right. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. But it's obviously become an enormous

“part of his identity that way. And so I think there's a case for that if that's what you want to do.”

And Abdul got that out of his interaction with Jesse. But then there's a second reason to do it,

which, you know, I'm not running for any elected office. So I'm in a different category, but I think what I do is more in this. And you see it with some of the elected like Jason Crow comes on a lot for instance, the Democratic Congressman from Colorado. And his reason for coming on is to not only be able to get a clip, right, or, you know, some good distillation of a counterpoint that he's making to our Republican orthodoxy, but also to have a real conversation with somebody

that sees the world differently and matters a lot to people who show up and vote and are potentially persuadable. I think you're right. I think it does work better going the Fox direction that it is say people on CNN, like the who are villainous, like Scott Jannings. I think it only solidifies

“Democrats, not like I don't think it he brings people to his side, which I think you do actually.”

So I think what Scott does is very much for the converted already. Like my colleagues love Scott

and thank what he does is amazing because he walks in and throws these bombs up.

But I don't think it persuades the audience, which I think you do actually. I think you might actually persuade some of the audience, you know, I'm thinking of my mom. She said the other day, "Oh, just Harlow made a good point," and I was like, "Oh, she didn't, too." You know, your mom was just impressed that I could get down on the ground eight months pregnant. When I first met her, I said, "That's true." But you just signed a new three-year contract with Fox

and you play an important role in the five. Your husband described you as the wrestling heel in the villain, but I did not love that. The rest of his interview was very cute. Yeah, I know, but you have talked about many of the hateful comments or even including death recipes, particularly after you personally attacked on social media by President Trump, which is often like it's really odd. I guess he loves the show and I'm ruining it for him.

Right, exactly. Do you have reservations about it? Is that representative most of the feedback you get from viewers? Often, the noisy, hateful people tend to be noisy and hateful and very small. How do you deal with that? So in the real world, the Fox viewers and you have experience, or the nicest people. And they might say something like, "You know, I don't like your politics, young lady, but your kids are just adorable." Because we used to show pictures of our kids now.

Nobody does that anymore because of how fucked up the world is. Or a lot of, which was part of the impetus for writing this book, like, I don't know how you do it with Jesse. Right, he's got a stop. His new year's resolution the last four years has been to interrupt me last. He has failed

“across the board. So out in the real world, it's very warm. And I think especially being on this”

particular show that is such a continued part of people's lives, like the appointment TV on the daily basis, I think really helps with that. I would say also the fact that Harold Ford Jr. does it half the week makes a difference. If it was me every day, perhaps it would be too much for some people. But I'm there, crazy, and Jessica. And it just works. I've had some apologies in real life. I write about that in the book, a woman who came up to me and said, "You know, I don't know if

you saw my tweets." And I said, "You know, my Twitter is a cesspool. If you called me the C word, I didn't notice it was just a Tuesday." But anyway, she wanted to apologize for doing that. And that was very meaningful to me. So being part of their world feels like a really big privilege to me. And I don't think that many people in our space have that, where I'm part of the liberal ecosystem, especially having raging moderates now. Yeah, I'm going to get to that.

have come for finding a new middle that promotes understanding of shared struggles and common

allies at the same time. You do work for a network and alongside cozy, done a lot to polarize

“Americans. I think if I had to staggering problems, I would say, "Jerrymandering”

social media and Fox News," including the spreading of 2020 election conspiracy lies. Talk about reconciling your quote Fox family, as you called them, with the ideas and policies they have. Does it ever get under your skin? I don't think I could take it, honestly. Sure, it gets under my skin. I'm openly frustrated and flum-ext on the show with some degree of regularity. I was talking about how there was no evidence of election fraud just on the last

on Friday. And Jesse brought up some ballot stuff or named Wanda, you know, I have no idea what

he's talking about. And I do try to understand some of these theories around Hunter Biden. There was a whole web of characters and diamonds and Mexican billionaires and Bulgarian something. And I tried to figure it out a little bit. But eventually I just, and this is one, Janine was still on the show. I just said, like, I can't follow all of this crap, right? Whatever web you've created to somehow

“justify the idea that what Hunter Biden is doing is the worst thing that's ever happened in America,”

you know, I just can't get there. But I do think that it is important to show up and to be a backstop against things that could take deeper hold if it wasn't pushed back. If there was an pushback, but it's not just any pushback, there is, I think, a way to do it that doesn't make people's sensors go off in such a way that they can't hear anything that you're saying. And that doesn't mean day one, day two, day three, day four. But maybe day 50, maybe day 100. I mean

Sarah Longwell, you know, in her new book, and you just didn't invent with her about this, she talks about this all the time with her focus groups, right? How long it sometimes takes for it to permeate with people that reality wasn't as they were told. Who's sort of like that SNL skit that it may be, he might be lying. This SNL skit. Maybe, right? And whatever's comfortable for you, vis-a-vis that I'm not here to be the feelings police or frankly the words police,

because we tried that and everybody said that we were sticks in the mud and didn't want to vote for us. Do you notice a vibe shift at Fox though? Will it be different? You know, going forward, especially Trump takes a big splat that looks like it's coming? Like, if he loses the election and yeah, I'm they kind of want to go that way every now you can see it. Honestly, it's better to be on offense than playing defense is hard. I mean, especially the last two years of the Biden administration.

Yeah, I mean, it's not comfortable with it. He slaps it in quite a bit. He tries. I don't, I mean, a lot of this is way above my pay grade, but it is easier when you can just sit there and criticize and criticize and criticize. And I think that people know what the courts said about all of this fraud. There were 66 cases and they won none of them.

“So I imagine that's how we're going to be talking about elections. And I think it's a testament to,”

you know, like Brett Bear has to basically every day tweet out in response to someone who brings this bullshit about the Arizona call that it was absolutely correct. And this was the timing of it versus other networks, etc. You know, and we'll continue climbing that hill with people who don't believe that 2020 was real. But I think that the combination of people doing so poorly economically and Trump not delivering on any of these promises plus what will hopefully be

a big electoral win should be enough even for the most ardent Trump supporters. And you see this, whatever their issue is if it's the economy, but with the Epstein files, it's a lot of people who you

never would have thought would turn on him. Oh, I knew that. I I've been paying attention a lot to

those groups that they're talk about it. And it was there. I always call that the bearing wall of their movement. Let's finish up talking about two things. Raging moderates, which you co-host was Scott Gaway. I always call you his sidepiece. Sorry. I know doing that, but that's okay. It's fine. I can handle it. You can handle it, Jess. But he's your sidepiece. How about that? So is it different than being on a television show? I mean, obviously, you and I have different experiences with Scott,

answer is awesome. And, you know, Scott is just a hugely interesting person to get to talk to.

It's different kinds of expertise says, right, that you bring to it. So, you know, his background is obviously not in politics. So we're on a bit different kinds of journeys together. I guess that way.

“And I think that, you know, the space is very saturated, obviously, but it has been really”

affirming of what we're doing, that the idea of arranging moderate, which is essentially a fiery populist, that knows that you also have to persuade people to be able to win your election, like in a list of Slack and or a John Ossoff, has been great. And I know it's not very fashionable right now to even talk about anything vis-a-vis moderation. And all the polls say that's on the focus groups, but having the raging in there at the beginning seems to let us sneak through.

And I'm just having a really good time. And, you know, my job at Fox is not interviewing people or having guests. It's a set show. Right. So you get to do that to talk to people. Yeah, it's got behaving. Do you need any help? No, I don't. Hey, you guys, your vibe is very different than our vibe. Yeah. Yeah. I would say so. I mean, you've been together so long. I know. Yeah, you're new. Yeah. Yeah. New and sparkly someday is because I'm not just not his cara. So he hates it. He hates

the idea that he has to keep going back to me. No. Oh, he does. It's okay. I don't know. I look

“happy. He was shirtless and beaming when I saw you again. I know, I know. It's true. What can I say?”

I don't mind. I'm very, I'm very flex. I'm very bendy. Just. So, yes, what I think of when I think of you. So flexible. That character was your bendy. It's different than flexible. I will smack you to the last Sunday if I need to. Not you people. So we usually talk about the rise of independent media and observe that literally everyone is a content creator. Do you think that's a good thing? I think it is. I think there's a lot of really excellent products out there and it creates a different

kind of vibe. How do you look at it? Comparatively, especially to Fox and Fox is the most popular of the cable shows. But it's like being the most popular of, you know, stage coaches eventually. But that these are growing. These are fast growing. They're definitely fast growing. They're a huge

platform. I, you know, Fox is like for the five, you got up to four million viewers. Yes, nothing to

know, you know. But I love being in both spaces because I think it also affirms that what I'm saying on Fox is independent curation that I'm not getting, you know, DNC talking points. And I mean, you know how it is. People get pissed off with the stuff that you say on air. No matter where you do it, you know, where they say like, oh, you misunderstood this or why you're criticizing the party and you can just say, this is what I feel and it's also reflective of what millions of

Americans are feeling. And if you don't want to deal with that, you're going to lose elections, which I imagine isn't high on your list of things to do. So I like having a foot in both spots frankly. And do I think it's a good thing that everybody is a creator, probably net net yes,

“but in that interview, something that I was talking about that I think is important is that”

there is concern when you talk to people out in the wild about all of the biases that people have that maybe weren't reported over the course of, you know, decades that they were working in

traditional TV, right, as a reporter or a journalist. And that's not, you've always had a

a point of view, a political point of view and not tried away from that, but a lot of people didn't have jobs like that. And it has complicated how people see these folks and whether they trust them to be a gender free. You hear that a lot. And it's not like I'm satisfying that for people. People know that I have a left word bent to the way that I look at our politics, but you know how hungry people are for facts and reality, right, for a boring,

reported, something, right, that just says, this is literally what happened versus this is my spin on it. And when you do have a proliferation of the creator economy at this level, people don't necessarily get that. And there's, you know, PBS can't do it for everybody, right, that's fair. So let's finish and return to your expertise as a researcher and a get a longer, I guess. What do you think people aren't paying attention to and around the midterms are

looking ahead to 20, 20, and and not who should be on the Democratic ticket in 20,

So I have shifted away from, I used to be more afraid of running a woman. You know, I was in that

“camp of like more Hillary than Kamala for me, because I think Hillary was just a next level”

candidate and the way the Kamala came to the candidacy is obviously, you know, not the traditional scenario she didn't get thrown through the thrown through the paces, essentially. Right. And she did try to go through the paces in 2020 and it didn't work out. So, but I have moved much more into a world where I'm concerned last with what people look like than what they sound like. And so if the message is right and resonant, I'm not as afraid

of it anymore. I mean, it's kind of a joke, but is there a world in which you have like an Andy Bashir AOC ticket to satisfy people on different sides of the spectrum? It won't actually

be that, but I'm not as close to off to the idea anymore. I used to be much more critical based on

what you've written here. Is it conciliatory? Because a lot of people, as you know, are loaded for

“bear, right? Yeah, but there is a conciliatory attitude. I think even in the way AOC does politics.”

You look at who she's friends with. You look at the way that she is in interviews. She's not talking down to anybody. I mean, if you're a billionaire, you're in the crosshairs. Right. But in general, I should be. Yeah, but I don't think that she has a disregard or a disdain for a working class, like a rural white person who traditionally voted for Donald Trump. Are they going to be her favorite person? I'm not sure about that, but she doesn't wreak of that elitism stink that we've

had for a long time. And background is a bartender and all those kinds of things. So I think it has a lot to do with, you know, the way that you're communicating like John Ossoff is obviously a great example of this. I'm curious to see how he does in interviews and kind of longer form conversations after the midterms, not on wood that he wins by a big chunk, which is what it looks like at this point. But I'm very open to a bunch of different packages if the message is such a thing as a

feisty conciliatory person. Yeah, Rubin Gallego. You know, he's somebody who actually has a lot of pretty left-leaning positions. One Arizona was able to do that in a year that Trump obviously did well, but he is talking about what Latino people actually want and how they think about wealth and was saying it's not about begrudging anyone else's success. Like they just want a big fucking truck

“themselves, right? And that, I think understanding that, which Trump has always understood,”

which is how he gets away with so much of this. Perhaps he's hit his wall. It was my most fervent hope. I think makes the way Gallego see the world as, you know, something very appealing for that debate stage at the very least, if you decide to go that way. So, very less question, which should be the Democratic and Republican bumper sticker based on what you've written here? Something around delivering, you know, something with an action, because there are people are too

cynical right now. I think to get swept up in a hope and change again. And yes, we can, didn't work. Right. So, we'll put that aside. But people want results. They're over the idea that they're going to fall in love with their electives and want to be part of this big movement. I mean, Mom Donnie had it to some degree. But he won just over 50% of the vote. So, he's done a lot of good work since he came into office, but something around deliverables, which is not particularly

sexy. I'm going to have to workshop it. Yeah. He needs to work. Yeah. But like deliverables, deliverable. I don't know. What would you, how would you judge it? Scott would help us. Yeah. We're, something delivering for you. You. For you. This one's for you. Yeah. This one's for you. Yeah. This one's for you. Okay. That one's for you. And then give everyone a glass of whiskey. Anyway, Jess, you need a glass whiskey after those shows. I honestly don't know. I really don't. I would smack Jessy Waters back

to last Sunday every single week, which I'm sure he would like. I think you guys would have a good time. I, okay. Sure. Why not? Tell him anytime he wants to come on. He's welcome. I doubt he has the set for it. But that's okay. I'll let him know this afternoon. Jess, this is a great book. I disagree.

Thank you for coming on. Finally. I'm so thrilled to have you. Thank you for having me.

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