Remembering Dolly Parton's Musical and Philanthropic Legacy

Dahle Barton died last week after more than 60 years delighting us with her music

performances, quick-witted interview appearances, big blonde wigs, boob jokes, for books, movies, theme parks, and probably most importantly, the legacy of philanthropy that will continue long into the future. She was a planner and a hard worker, so she made sure of that. The only three contemporary heroes I review and Dahle was at the top, so I wanted to talk about her life in legacy with some of the smartest women I could think of.

Later on, we'll have country artists Shelley Wright and Rolling Stone culture writer Marissa Moss

to talk about Dahle's musical impact. But at first is a professor of sociology and certified

dollyologist, Tressy McMillan cotton, who's a wonderful writer about Dahle and we share a great

“love of country music and I'm excited to talk to her. I think it's important to talk about our heroes.”

We talk so much about what we don't like in the world and everybody likes Dahle, but it's more than that. It's more than something we can agree on the way she lived her life was a, was a map for the rest of us, even if we can't reach it. And it's really important to talk about what she means and what she's going to mean to the future because I have a feeling she'll continue to have an enormous impact so stick around.

Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough so why make it harder with it doesn't different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odo, it's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part Odo replaces multiple

“expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made”

the switch. So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's OdoO.com. Megan Rpino here. This week on Wire You Like This, I am talking with Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Pablo Torre about his New York City upbringing, striking fear into the hearts of sports teams and blazing his own trail in sports media. Pablo also flips the script on me and gets me to answer a very spicy question. Check out the latest episode of Wire You Like This, wherever you get your

podcasts and on YouTube. Thank you for coming on on. It's a real pleasure to be here. So Deli Barton was 80 years old and she herself had talked about her health issues for months, so it's not a shock. But it's so felt like a shock because she was quite vibrant in those communications and had that aura of being sort of eternal in a lot of ways. The outpouring online has been extensive and it's all new kind of

stuff. I just first, what's your experience on hearing that she had died? I'm a university professor

by days my day job and I was in a research meeting and we just opened the meeting and you know you opened the laptop and I hadn't turned off the turn on the do not disturb just yet which meant I saw the text message from my editor and it was just two words dolly died. Immediately ended the meeting. Everyone understood by the way. I went back to apologize everyone later and they were like oh no no no no no. This is important. Everyone understood that something really significant and

“I also really appreciate how many people thought it would be significant to me. But I think a lot”

of people felt that way that this is something that had happened to them, which I just think speaks to dolly's ability to make us feel like we are in a relationship with her, you know. It's her social issues right here. It's weird, you know. For everyone but I think dolly part and did one of the best jobs of making it feel less weird for people. This was the pair of social relationship I used to say that I really want this one to go to distance, you know. If she can just

survive black lies matter me too. Like I just every thing, everyone that would come up and she just kept nailing it you know. Right to the end. Right to the end. It was the relationship that was had been worth it. I've been listening to dolly since like very young age. I was a bit

country music ribbon, you know, all of them. Every one of them. Of course. Like you have to go and

down that path. Unlikely but also. Yes. Exactly. And my son actually called me and said are you okay? Like because I had just I made this so much dolly part and over the course of it's like and she was sort of the central figure and then there was all kinds of blue grass around her and everything else. Yeah. In the wake of her passing you wrote a wonderful piece in the times and there was so many pieces. Look everyone sort of had their reflections on dolly part and whether

there's stories it was interesting online there were regular people who just like someone who she gave a coat to gave one of her stories. I saw that one here. Did you see that one? That was like did, you know, oddly enough everyone had like an interesting story and they all had the similar kind of thing. But I really appreciated your piece because you were talking about her as a writer. So talk a little bit more about the dedication to her craft and how it inspired your own writing.

I really took issue with the way a person had been as famous or as long as dolly part and had been famous but yet hadn't been treated seriously. But like how does someone do that? How do they accomplish that? So you know the entrepreneurship taken her seriously as a business strategist which by all account she was a killer business person and in fact I said many times and herself that she was proud of her business acumen in her success and on the flip side for me as a writer I thought

we haven't taken her craft seriously and it was clear that she was deeply proud of her writing ability and would say over and over again the way that I want to be known is as a writer and she was also

“deeply confident about it which was very inspiring to see a woman. I think especially of her”

generation for all the humility that you know I think she performed while being ridiculously famous and ridiculously wealthy the one place where she allowed herself to own what she was was when it came to her writing. How does someone who does not come from a place where we think of our great writers emerging from the Appalachian mountains from generational poverty just be so committed to the fact that she's a creative person with craft and I've seen her hold her own

against men you know major musicians and say no I'm a writer I'm a very good writer in fact you're absolutely and if you're lucky I'll let you write with me and I thought I wanted to give her the opportunity and frankly from myself very selfish I just say the same thing the one interview I wish I could do was with Dolly Parton but I would only talk about her writing how she thinks about it how she approaches it how it has developed over her career and over her

lifetime and I thought that we got into the end of her life and that she did not get a chance to see us really appreciate her craft the way she died well she also put that in your way there's so much noise she was so much noise there was so and she knew it right there was so much hiding and plain sight kind of kind of situation because the words were out there so you saw the craft right

“but what was interesting is everybody was looking at all this which I think was part of it you know”

when she joked about being a drag in drag I was like you are you actually are but it's part

of the messaging that you're trying to do and I was always like and I think she enjoyed it I don't

think it was so high in a painful way oddly enough that is saying I always think of our great comedians or that way you know I think of a Robin Williams for example who you know there's always this vulnerability and pain but in their genius the thing about Dolly's is that there wasn't there was just a really core sense of if not happiness enjoyed but she was of comfort she was very comfortable and to see that kind of creative genius without the pathos I also thought was a really

interesting yeah yeah and I always wondered how she achieved that right right it's interesting because you sort of compare to Loretta Lynn or yeah you know patsy climb which is just aching with pain right like exactly or almost any of them even reba with my favorite talk of all time which is fancy

same one of the things in your essay and when it's stick with it was the bridge first talk a

little bit about that song and how you talked about it within the essay about the bridge which is

“an incredible song especially at the time when she sang it just now I think she in the 60s right”

in the early 60s when she sang the first time the idea like you know now it kind of sounds you know glive to say but to to realize that she writes the song about a young pregnant girl who's boyfriend the father has abandoned her and she's standing at a bridge you know kind of like the ode to Billy tell Billy tell right well she's standing at the bridge but Dolly finishes her she's contemplating suicide the the pain and the reality of living as a young woman you know before

when you are poor where marriage when you are a young girl from a poor place it is not just about love

and visibility and safety in your communities about like economic security and I always thought

that wasn't thread beneath Dolly's vulnerability in her writing which is that you know the decisions about who we love when you come from a place where she comes from is really about more than just love and romance it's about her home it's about having land it's about having some economic security I'm listening it song I knew the song yes it's not one of her best known it's earlier in her career it didn't get played on radio because it's as far too progressive but she even didn't

tell what she did or what that's right which speaks to how much power she had gotten from portar whagnar right this she was able to do that and then she wanted to do it

and so I knew the song kind of knew it intellectually it was important you know

“south you know is that southern Gothic storytelling which is actually when I think Dolly was her best”

was so good at that stuff but then I'm listening to it in my thirties right not just had a really devastating pregnancy loss it's you know everybody has their traumas this one's just mine it's not special but it's the one that happened to me right and I know when I lose that baby that I'm just not going to have children and choosing I have children is very different than the choice being made for you and I was in my car and the silence was just too loud so I just flipped on the radio

didn't want to hear commercial so I turned on college radio and for whatever reason they would do in some retrospective and they were playing the song and I just started weeping had to pull the

car over and fact and I remember thinking I've listened to the song so many times but I never understood

it until I needed to understand what it would mean to be that desperate and that scared and alone which is very much how I was feeling and at the end of that song I really was a different person I mean I kind of got on with the business of life after that and it was just spoke to the way

“that I think a piece of art can find you when you need it but somebody has to be brave enough”

to do it for us and I think dollars just did that over and over again and many songs many of or so many I was thinking of traveling through about trans people way before anybody you know was being supportive of the culture um it's a little bit about that her place in American culture in history you know I think a lot of people of course are pointing to the fact that everybody liked her and you know an attend I am a long time attendee of dollywood and it went

one of the things that I loved about it was that when you went there like literally rednecks, gays as bent everybody was there in a really jolly way and the minute you walked outside it was like more often like you know you get the pigeon forage and you see the wild's biggest gun store

“and you know I think it is so fascinating that it exists right there and I have got this yeah”

right outside the gates of dollywood it is like a you know yeah you're back in the real work and fact you know I've walked down that main street where they've got all the you know the shops and everything and they've got you know long jockeys and ancient mama dolls and one good thing and then you know here I am this black woman walking through and then you enter into dollywood and it is her vision of what she thinks her culture really should be and could be. I really

think of dollywood as being her trying to say the country people, the Southern people, the Appalachian people, I know are capable of this and if I create the right world and the right boundaries for it people will see my people the way that I've seen them which is that they are not inherently racist or classic but they're racist right that this can happen and it is one of the few places in country music you know popular country music live shows and thing parks that kind of thing where

I have felt comfortable and that's you know that's a story so many people I have gone to a dolly part and concert and at the height by the way of like trump 1.0 right where you know you've got people who have clearly pulled up you know in the pickup trucks flags waving and are standing in line again inside with like you know a gaggle of drag queens there there's almost no place else in this country that I think that you know you called her in an essay this was our unproblematic

and just you know part of what I've done really is that this is not even my core work I'm just

“fascinated by her and I think some of it is she diffused the big strong emotions that have come to”

define our political and civic life you know nobody now can just roll their eyes everything now has to be you know a knock down drag out nuclear war between people we've lost all of the affect in the middle and something about the way dolly treated these things that were being jinned up as these major conflicts right she come in and she got what how you think uh we're the only people you know think I really like asses and only people who matter of course black lives matter do we think

are a lot of actions if the only ones that matter no she just almost would right size the cultural

conflict so the size it should be which is just this is not even a big deal right something about

her ability to do that I think would reset people's emotions you see it online you know everything is set to 10 right you can't just say I'm not into this right exactly 12 20 is where we're heading you can't just say you know not my thing right but dolly had a way of reminding you that you

“had another option and she said if you want to enjoy me and we really wanted to enjoy her you”

will do it this way right she's reminded me sometimes like a kindergarten school teacher just sets the roles and holds the boundaries while loving right kindly right and but she did that for adults yeah yeah that's interesting what what from your perspective as a sociological phenomena is there are there versions of her over time or how do you look at that I can't think of it frankly no I can't either and part of it is you know she is a singular person but

she's also you know becoming dolly part in a moment where like all of these things make that even possible right so some of what I've thought about is the grief of losing her but it's also the grief of losing like I just don't think we produce that type of popular artist anymore but just way to fragment it now I think for a dolly partner really emerged but also one that existed before the sort of performative politics that every celebrity now must have like she didn't get

“solid I think by all of that the way a young artist would now and so it's not just that dolly part”

and was singular she happened in a moment where only dolly part and I think could have happened but no I may be up you know there are some in like various communities and here's something like a Paul Robeson at one time but who was deeply hated however by the majority but he was wildly popular in that sort of way that confounded expectations but no I find it is very hard to think of another artist not a Taylor Swift for example who will be her similar right I mean gifted songwriter

gifted business person yeah hugely popular whether but but she has quite an angry and angry group but her and cannot this is what I mean about dolly's ability to sort of shape her fandom no popular celebrity more can shape their fandom the way that she did you know you think about the behive of Beyonce who are known or known as being particularly vicious to be born mine same there's a lot of so yeah you gotta protect the client when they go and say what the

Taylor Swift's right but they can't they cannot sort of shape their fandom I think in the way that dolly could or neutralize the opposition the way that dolly could they just don't have that skill her politics were obviously liberal like so obviously deeply even further to I was like she's friend left and I am like you know I mean something talk about that how why did it work for her because she was by all so like feminism the black might matter thing you you mentioned that was a big deal

the vaccines vaccine so yes it wasn't a little statement it wasn't it was a big statement all those things were big statements I think she really leaning on mentioned this in my column you know we have this which I think you probably are familiar with that I know how how much we have in common here you would call it country dumb which is leaning into people's will expectations of you while navigating and getting done what you want to get done and dolly partners one of the best at this that I have

ever seen so I think part of it I think the vaccine case is a really good example of this she knows is deeply on popular right so one thing is that dolly is very smart very well read understood I think a political moment at that sort of like visceral level that really brilliant people do

and could quickly prescribe right what needed to happen well hey it's me I'm finally going to get

my vaccine I'm so excited I've been waiting for while I'm open up to get it and I'm smart enough

I think you should get out there and do it too I haven't changed or my songs to fit the occasion

“it goes vaccine vaccine vaccine vaccine vaccine vaccine I'm begging no have you please don't hesitate”

but when she would weigh in on the issue people are so conditioned to underestimate her that I just think she'd already accomplished what she wanted but by the time they figured out what she was doing right and I think that is the case with her over and over again that she was able to take these political stances and positions on things that people didn't expect her to have a good right position on and by the time they got it together to be angry she'd already won she'd already captured

the headline she'd already made the donation she'd already done the thing so I think there was a lot of that and I also think there was something she really didn't I think a lot of people would say they don't know her politics didn't want to know them and she gave them that gift she said okay I'll

“give you some plausible did not know if you want to say you just liked me because I'm you know”

blonde or because I'm funny I'll let you have that right but she I think always knew that

who she was really talking to where the people understood what she was doing and why we'll be back in a minute support for the show comes from Odo running a business is hard enough so why make it hard or with it doesn't different apps that don't talk to each other introducing Odo it's the only business software you'll ever need it's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your

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first cast we give a dorm room a smart tech makeover we get advice on what laptops are worth buying now that everything is more and more expensive and we break down what happened this week's big metacetlement about kids safety that's the week on the first cast wherever you get your podcasts so you tell the story when you were a little kid your mom caught you standing too close to the TV

“I remember that time staring at deli part in like many black americans deli part and drew you in”

she also collaborated with black artists beyond say patty libel queen latifa among others talk about that because it's but also that was another thing at deli would it was so

racially mixed I've never seen a more racially mixed group of people in one place in a place

I did not expect it to happen right that's the thing well country music and black popular music have something in common and ever in about this before in some ways country music and hip-hop music are the two genres most obsessed with authenticity right they police who is legitimately authentically country you know they're primary obligation to the culture and of a genre where authenticity means everything dolly part was the most authentic I think what I was really responding

to her as a child was this is a person who yes there's a lot of artifice right there's a lot of smoke and mirrors but there was something undeniably authentic about her presentation of herself

that did not have to be like my presentation so she didn't have to be black she never tried to

say arm be I always love is about her like she would partner with these audiences but never tried to sound like them which can be yeah which can be a little condescending right the idea that you could come into somebody genre and own it right she never did that no matter what she did she did her she never tried to blow out a voice never did big runs never tried I just started to come to my window and I never heard it that way and yeah was not the way she was doing it with Melissa Sarrid

but she was the lead singer which was I was like oh look at that I saw her singing with a self African oh yeah yeah yeah she's in the pocket but again not trying at all just sort of do a mimicry of the culture and I'm telling you something black audiences love love when artists respect us enough to come into our culture and not try to mimic us you know one of the you know you talk to black artists you know from the 50s and the 60s where it's this really big push for

white audiences never crossover to us and and Dolly's respectful engagement with them she did

she would go no I'm crossing over to you and I'm going to act like a guest in your home but I'm also going to do my thing and I think that really resonated with us and why we gave her so much credit you know when people tried to make black audiences doubt whether she was really but she was really about it you know all of that we all just said no we're going to let Dolly cook we trust what she's

“doing and I think that's why what do you think her legacy will be a lot of people have had”

different reactions I just had Caitlyn Collins on my pivot show and she was like I just feel like I got to live at the same time that she got to live I feel very good about that another person was like I think it's going to have an impact on politics because people and they're like I feel woken up like suddenly like I've had it with this because the contrast her Trump is so incredible just just she having effect and what do you think it will be we just been in this you

know this Trump moment this moment for so long it starts to feel like normal and it does sometimes it does take an external shot to just go wait a minute now the water's gotten really effort hot right we're boiling here and I can't see this being one of those moments I also think that comparison really draws for people a clear you know black or white that this was a choice sorry

like when Donald Trump and body some of you can't say always a product of his time you can't say

oh extreme wealth does distortion when Dolly part is his peer and shows a very different type

“of way to exist in the world so I also think about that I mean I think the cultural impact goes”

without saying but I think there is like a sort of collective grief we have right now that we lost stocky part in a political moment with this administration who in no way deserves the right to memorialize her and I do think people feel that as a call to arms do we wish it were the fact that babies are being arrested sure do we wish it was about all of these other horrible things but you know what you take the moment you've got and if it's that we looked up and

realized wait a minute president Trump gets to preside over our national mourning of somebody who represented the best of who we hope we can be again don't know if that'll translate into like big people it takes a little bit tore politics but I do think it has the ability to bring back a little

shame and frankly we need that if you had to um talk to her I know sounds crazy I always think what

wouldn't you ask what would you ask her if you had one question I think I would have asked her what she wanted to write that she never got the chance to write I want to know the story of all

“the way this she knows she has that's what I'm hoping I'm hoping they actually throw open”

her archives by the way and we do find that it's in there but I always felt like she wanted so much to control her story which goes you know totally reasonable but I thought there was a story of herself she wanted to tell when it was safe for it to be told and I have had a dream a fantasy that there's a secret autobiography in the archives that has been held you know upon my death now you can do it that'll just because you know she's got the stories about the worst

actors in the industry in the business and the bad behavior and what she survived and I always wanted that stuff from her and I'm hoping there's a secret biography out there oh but that's great and I have one last question one you talked about her is a writer and that's what you're us it was about is there one line that just amazed you it's getting to the point where it don't add up I can't keep saying I've come this far with my guitar on pure don't look oh great one

great one yeah I think I have to say it's got to be light of a clip in warning everything not everything's going to be alright that was all wrong that's to me it was the greatest line you know and that because that's it that's everything that's all we can do that's yeah yeah absolutely anyway trusty you're a wonder I really I really I really love your work and I really appreciate your thoughts here thank you very much joining me now to talk about Dalai's legacy as a musician

is country art is jelly right and author of like me confessions of a heartland country singer and rolling stone culture writer Marissa Moss Moss wrote the book her country how women of country music became a success they were never supposed to be Marissa Shelley thanks for coming on on climb to be here what did be here and it's such a good topic to talk about by the way I'll start with you Shelley and then Marissa and you can answer after that what was your immediate

all knew she was not well it's it I was shocked and sad and it was I think it took me a couple of days to really kind of wrap my head around that Dalai partan is not somewhere doing something great

“that's persona I think she's kind of was kind of the definition of someone that we all”

needed and wanted to believe could live forever it's kind of hard to imagine a world without Dalai in it and I think living in a bit of denial like maybe if someone's going to make it to like 150 that'll be Dalai because we need her to do that but sort of the same Michelle is that it's been

taking a minute to sink in just I feel like finally this morning I was driving my daughter to school

and I put on light of a clear blue morning and it just finally hit me it was just like had to take a minute and I say with it yeah I'm so glad that song is getting a lot of attention now it's one of my favorites yeah Marissa you wrote a piece of Rolling Stone and my Dalai was such a beloved figure around the world why did her music make it easier for people to connect with her and with maybe each other in a lot of ways yeah I mean Dalai is the thing that we can all agree on right

everyone from any kind of political party any background can a can unite on loving Dalai and she came from poverty in East Tennessee and she wrote stories from the heartland from that experience from Appalachia about what it was like to you know be a human in this world dealing with human things so she could write everything from stories of love to stories of loss to just so many different stories about the human experience and all of us can see ourselves in Dalai's song.

Charlie at the start of your career you kind of followed in Dalai's footsteps becoming one of Porter Wagner so called girl singers on his TV show when you're starting out were you looking

“to her as a model of what you should do talk a little bit about that experience yeah 100% so”

Norma Jean was Porter's first girl singer that you've seen on the Porter Wagner show and then

Dalai stepped into that role and and then in the early 90s that was the job that I had and I had been following Dalai and her example since I was a young kid back you know in a farm in Kansas the kind of my musical landscape was really born of Loretta Lynn and Dalai Martin that those were my two biggest influences and and so and then when I got to Nashville and and got to know Dalai and was lucky to call her a mentor and and a friend I followed her not only her music but the way

she conducted herself through the business lens she was peerless in this space and so I did try to emulate her in every way and fell short that every turn but those of us who made made our way to Nashville with a guitar on our back everybody was paying attention to how Dalai conducted business and how she made her art and and that included me for sure. What's it like to be a girl singer on a TV show. I mean the Porter Wagner show was just classic and of course he had he had lesson

as influenced over time but initially it was critical. Well yeah and that kind of was the role before

I got to Nashville I worked in Branson Missouri on a show called the Ozark Jubilee a pretty storied historic show there and the role I played there was girl singer as well and so you know even

“into the 90s when I started making records that's how we were kind of talked about is you know”

you can't have more than one girl singer on an outdoor festival that has eight or nine different acts I can see Marissa smiling because she's she's been deep in this conversation for the past 20 years but it was there was definitely kind of a role for girls and women and it was as we look back now pretty dismissive and belittling of women but as Loretta told me early in the career she said you you're not going to change the industry bend but don't break and you can't change the

game if you're not on the field so that was the role that most of us were happy to play because that's how we got on the field. When you think about that I mean because she was a girl singer but transcended that with enormous power. Yeah and I just listening to you tell those stories and thinking about that idea of girl singer we may not call women performers girl singer anymore but we still treat them in the role in country music just thinking of how many you know how many women

call herself a feminist I always talk about how she was such a master of words and so she knew

that using a word would be divisive but her actions were uncategorically feminist you know I just think of one of my favorite dolly songs is just because on the woman and she wrote that song after having a conversation with her husband they had been newly wedged and he asked her if she had ever slept with anyone before they were married and she said yes and he got really upset and she was thinking to herself well that's not fair we don't care if men are sleeping around before they

“get married and so she wrote that that's what that song is about”

and I mean and talk about revolutionary for that time and even for now if there was a song on country radio right now that was about that I think it would still be kind of revolutionary. Yeah so was the bridge so was done blonde so there were a lot of them. There were times like Barbie she was good at a lot of things obviously one of the things that was really special about it was her excellence throughout right that it was just whatever she did singing and songwriting

chief among them but also business creativity branding. What do you think about first when it comes to dolly? Shall we go first? When I think about dolly I think about I know this sounds a little too woo woo but I think about angel wings I'm not kidding you this woman and Cara I don't know

“if you ever had a chance to meet her in person I didn't but when she walked in a room whether it”

be an industry event a fan event whether it was we called it fan fair back in the day which is now the CMA music fest or a restaurant in Nashville people had a spiritual kind of visceral reaction and she had she really did emit a light and she really was an angel walk in the earth and and to the kind of political piece that she really was careful to not align herself with the political party and the point being made that you know you could see through the lens of now that she was

quite progressive and some might even say very liberal the things that she talked about weren't the things that identified her politically which she didn't want to be it was the things that she did i.e. providing uniforms and funding for black marching bands giving the money's her performance

royalties for i will always love you uh Whitney's version to the black community so she didn't

have to express a political belief she just did things and that we were supposed to know her by her fruit she would love that i have used a biblical uh reference here we we were to know her by her fruit and her fruit was angelic one of the things that i come to mind and i the the only interview i wish i done was with her or talking just about business only about business that's all

“it because i really think she sort of she didn't hide it completely but she didn't like express it”

as much she'd say i always always get one over on them because they think i'm dumb that was pretty much the extent of it but she famously turned down and she talked about it Elvis Presley's request record i will love you because he wanted the publishing rights really to have for them um she wanted to own all the rights to her own music which was very unusual at the time um obviously paid off big time when when the used and sang it became a best-selling record both mercy and Shelley

talk about this this pressure is and what it meant to be so protective of her intellectual property even as a young up and comer yeah i mean it is something i think of when we were talking about when Taylor Swift is you know it's been kind of battling to own her publishing rights as part of like one of sort of the foundational lessons of her career hmm when women come to Nashville and i'm sure Shelley can talk even you know even better about this than i can't

having lived it um the degree to which you're expected to sign a way and give away just in order to have a career i mean it's huge like you will do anything you are not being advised by people

that are always looking out for your best interest that probably aren't um and you're trying to fight

to be that one woman in the room one woman on the radio um and so it's kind of expected that you'll do whatever you have to do when a lot of times that means giving up your publishing rights

was really a model for advocating for yourself as a woman in the business and i think she didn't shy away from showing that she was a business person so at that time especially key and that that particular artist was the most popular artist in the world one of the most popular artists and no like yeah yeah as a young woman. Shelley talk about this owning your own stuff yeah plus one to everything Marissa just said the the the things that we will do when we get to Nashville

when we've got a major label or anyone saying hey we believe in you we want to help you you just you don't come to town to be a business person you come to town to make records and and so um

“the you know when when i think about what dolly did when she did it in terms of her publishing”

you know it it's why she was a problematic girl singer it's one of the reason i mean she before she was seen as an advocate and a pioneer she would just like a girl singer who is breaking the rules and and causing some trouble but when Colonel Tom Parker elvices manager of Calderon said we have but we're going to need half that publishing she had already had a hit record

with i will always love you she knew the value of that copyright but i think even if

that we're a newly licensed song and no one had ever cut it i still think she would have said you can't have my publishing so the name of dolly's publishing company was oh oh par i believe uh own part and in that was after her uncle billowans and part and which is why i named my publishing company in the early nineties henright my mom's maiden name is henry my my dad of course i'm right one of the things about dolly is she saw the whole field she saw the long game and she knew

she was not going to have a three year career it was her plan to have a 65 year career and when you think about the value of your IP and carry you know you know i'm a super fan i have heard you talk a lot about doing all you can do to hold on to your IP how much has that meant to you everything you know in yourself yeah it's interesting it's a lot of people have been tried different

“times of tried to get it and they they always go why do you have to have it i go i just want it i don't”

have to tell you it's mine it's mine i said it's mine because it's mine yeah that's why and they're always

like well for what whether you may not make money for it i don't care it's mine yeah and dolly had that that was her thinking is that pal this isn't a this isn't a short term career that i want to have i'm going all the way and and she did and she owned herself and what a what a gift to herself and and to the to her family and i her team and her band and to the world and an example for the tailor Swiss and an example for me i've owned all of my publishing and my masters all of my masters since 2004

that's hard to do one of the things that was interesting about dolly the business woman even as her business florist which was never accused of being greedy criticisms and capitals and seem to be as right by her how is that possible um from one of you to search allian then marissa oh she gave so much away so you know you one could do a quick google search and see the things that she gave away the massive amounts of money intentional money not just check writing but

intentional really focused money and i can promise you what you can find on google is not the half of it not even the quarter of it you know when you grow up poor in the smoky mountains and uh in a two you know two room shack and i and i had had conversations with dolly about this it's all gravy

“after that um and so i think no one ever questioned her heart because she showed up with it”

everywhere every day every moment of the day and she she gave so much money away but again she did it with intention and and that kind of that coupling uh effect of writing a check but knowing where you want it to go how you want it to go and who you want to receive it that's power no one would ever suggest that this woman was greedy she when she she said i just give it away and i just just more comes in what happened then where i give it away then more comes in we'll be back in a minute

so one of the things that she did do a lot was war card like an incredible you see she seemed to be everywhere these clips that are showing up or like she was there oh she was there i didn't know she was there and last summer it was announced she was going to do a six night vagus residency i i bought a ticket um it was later postponed due to health issues but you know she was even at

79 still grieving her husband she was gearing up to work um and it she'd never really she didn't

retire in any ways talk a little bit where that drive came from um because it obviously wasn't about

dolly didn't have children i think she still saw her life is almost like a version of intergenerational wealth for people in his Tennessee um as a model for southern areas that are really misunderstood that are kept away from opportunities by you know how they grew up how our

“society is structured so i think she saw that business not just is expanding the dolly brand”

and working as a model to feel of her charitable efforts and being a model for women but also providing for her people because the dolly theme park is going to keep going on the dolly brand is going to keep going on all of her works that she has and then she has like a whole plan laid out are going to keep funding people who need that income and some people that came you know grew up just like dolly dead um so i think that was part of what really fielder what do you think

shall i i think more as is exactly right uh dolly felt and i don't want to use the word obligation um i think she thought it was a privilege uh to go to continue to work really hard because she did have lots of um communities that really rely on dolly wood and to rely on the big dolly

“machine and uh it's not to say people were just taking from her but she had an opportunity to provide”

access and opportunity to others who without dolly's influence and kind of her business ecosystem they'd lose that and then i would just add at the end of the day you know dolly dolly scrappy she's a hard worker i don't think she would have known what to do with herself if she weren't working and i'll

say if you were to kind of reverse engineer into all of it this woman always ended up in a quiet

room with the guitar writing something down that's where the work came from and i know i'm i'm i know that you know as recently as you know within the past year so she found herself in a room with the guitar writing ideas down and probably if i'm a betting woman she probably was jotting down song ideas in the hospital that's at the heart of her economic kind of uh ecosystem was make up a story right down a song reflect a human experience if she's funding all that

philanthropy at the same time where does the next thing come from marissa i mean there's members of lots more songs uh maybe there's other things there uh i had heard the reason i want to talk to her as i heard she was doing a lot of work around AI and song songs stems and creating stuff she was endlessly interested in future stuff which i thought was i was shocked sort of shocked by in a lot of ways and of course then i was like why am i shocked she said

“no one to print her yeah yeah um where does it go then yeah i mean i think we got from her”

PR agency within days i think it must maybe it was a day this has been a blur of a week but a plan of everything went out to journalist that she has in the works and it detailed all of her different brands her hotel here in downtown Nashville her museum her play opening up on Broadway there's clothing brands there's food companies you can buy dolly cake mix yeah there are yeah there are so many things that she has that exists that are still in the works but i think she

knew that the business ventures even as music unfortunately becomes um more difficult uh becomes more difficult to propel yourself economically with just me and single alone so there's

a whole dolly business um the machine that will keep running you know shelly you were the first

mainstream country artist to be openly gained uh 2010 and you've said dolly was one of the few artists who offered her support to you what did that look like and what did it mean that's someone of her statue was speaking up for you it meant everything again going back to dolly having been one of my biggest influences in in my lifetime and in my musical kind of journey to have the defining artist of my genre um speak publicly and about about supporting me and you know at we all

knew that dolly was a friend to the queer community um and she she i i just can't tell you what i don't actually still have words to explain how much that meant to me to have dolly be in my corner

and celebrate me um and and it wasn't a surprise to me because that's who dolly had always been you know

one of dolly's dolly used to say she said a lot of things but don't try to be anything but who you

judging people why are you uh that's god's job if you're gay you're gay if you're straight you're straight

“and you should be allowed to be you know how how you are and i think that's one of the reasons”

why the queer community found such a favor in her and loved her so much because she truly was authentically herself and she wanted others to be and that that really interesting intersection of supporting the queer community while also having the the deep faith practice that she did that was really unique and and she she allowed a lot of grandparents and parents and neighbors and and folks to to listen a little bit longer to their queer nephew when they said hey uh anti-hay

grandpa i'm gay it was dolly parton who got gave them pause enough to kind of listen to their kid so it meant a lot to me yeah so most of the things she also did a lot was it was collaborations with other artists and they were they were all over the place like that letter to m and m like i was like what like like it was sort of like like i suspect she saw a lot in common in terms of way he grew up in everything else but one of the in 87 for example 1987 she and Emily Harris

Linda Ron said put an album called trio obviously Ron sent it was more of a rock and roll singer Harris it's more folkie um i saw a little sadderage thing the other day and then lady smith like my body though it was all of the place you know bluegrass and then it was pop and then it was country and then it was religious and then it was Christmas um they yeah it went and then she just moved

“along so she moved all over the map and like you said she she said yes so many times i think”

when she could have very easily said no repeatedly and i i think she understood the importance of you know being dolly and bringing herself into that conversation i think of in 2019 when she joined the high women just Britney Carlisle Amanda Shire is not only him being a mayor and more son sage and newport folk festival yeah and then a score of other women that joined the sage later she did not have to show up that day apparently she had to like charter a plane just to get

in there and they covered her in a cloak so she could come into newport without anyone recognizing that it was dolly so that's a lot of effort to go through just to be this you know kind of short surprise performance with women there were out there the mission of the high women was more women need to be in country on country radio and she said i want to you know co-sign this and and that's pretty wild to me and you can find you know dolly duets with people that maybe

you've never heard of because she just wanted to you know wanted to support those projects last

question for both of you i'd love you both to reflect on what you think the legacy and the future impact is going to be is will be political will people be like reminded of kindness in a way in a profound way and what lesson will each of you be taking away from her life shall we want to start yeah what will the future look like well the world is less than with dolly gun that said her legacy of using her power and knowing her power whether it be supporting someone's version of

one of her songs or using her power to give money to something that she cared about she used her

“power well and i think her legacy will be a reminder to all of us to know your power and use it”

often and and then in terms of it just in in terms of what it's like going forward i think it's all of our jobs to remind ourselves kind of what would dolly do dolly was a genuinely is let me show you it's my shirt right now i got it dolly wood there it is okay i'm gonna need one of those well great shirt care and and and i do think she is made the world kinder and and i do think that dolly belongs to all of us right left center north southeast west i've heard from people around the globe colleagues

from around the globe in the past few days we are so sorry about dolly part and we're warning her here and the office we're playing her music dolly belongs to the world and i think that's that's the legacy okay versia you have the last word something that i that i've been thinking about in wrote about um is this idea that we all can agree on dolly and what does that mean and what would she think about that and i don't think it was an ego project i don't think she all wanted us to agree on her

and loved her because it made her feel good and made her feel like she was the most powerful woman on

and that if we could all agree on dolly part and what more can we do can't we all agree with each other

“more can't we find a middle place with each other more can't we understand each other's humanity a”

little bit more um so in that process of all loving something together as a people as humans

what more can we do with that feeling and i really hope that now that we're talking about her

“in the past tense which sucks so much um that will continue to think how else can we harness this feeling”

what else can we all come together on um because i don't think we want to let that go i hope

we don't want to let that go no no you know who are alternative it's so opposite trump is so

“opposite there i'm trying not to bring him up because he doesn't belong anywhere in this conversation but”

you're right you're absolutely right it's like what can we what do we have in common and she was what we had in common anyway i really appreciate it from both of you um this i could talk about dolly endlessly and all kinds of topics and i hope we'll continue to do so in the years i had because it's really much needed for sure thanks care i thanks for having us from thanks for having today's show was produced by nashott kura tracihund mattle in the plant dobe mishel aloy

katherin milsop and kalen lynch special thanks to katherin barnor this episode was engineered by alia jackson peres and our theme music is by tracked mx if you're already fun the show then you know about the light of a clear blue morning that's coming if not jolene go away go every listen a podcast search for on with keroswisher and hit follow thanks for listening to on with keroswisher from podium media new york magazine the box media podcast network and us will be back on monday with more