This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of fresh air.
10 years ago, Colin Kaepernick took the knee during the National Anthem, and it cost him his NFL career. He's really talked about it since.
“Now, he tells the story of that decision, and why he still trains every day to play.”
But I am not at the point of accepting that I will never step on a field again.
Listen, on the NPR app, or wherever you get fresh air. This is Planet Money, from NPR. Hey, Recky. Hey, Wayne, tell me, what could you do if you wanted to invest a hundred bucks in Apple stock, but you only had $50.
Oh, I know the answer. You are talking about margin trading, right? Absolutely. I could set up a margin account with my brokerage firm, put my 50 bucks in there, and then they could lend me the other 50 bucks.
Of course, out of very high interest rates, and then I could buy that stock.
Let's rip some day trades.
Absolutely, right?
“Investors of the US stock market are making a lot of these margin trades these days.”
The total amount of borrowing is that in all time, record level, over $1.5 trillion. That's up by 50% from a year ago. Well, that is a lot of leverage. Hello, and welcome to Planet Money, I'm Wayne Wong. And I'm Ricky Mulvie, investing behavior is changing a lot.
On one hand, it's easier than ever to participate in the stock market. That means more people can share in wealth creation. Great, in theory. On the other hand, you see more people taking more risks. So, today on the show, when margin trading goes wrong, a debt-fueled stock market crash
in South Korea gives us a cautionary tale, and, in sports betting, being an investment, this is a growing view of gambling. We have the data on how that works out. This message comes from pure insurance. When shopping for home insurance, reviews and prices are common considerations.
“But what about the motivations of the company behind the policy?”
Pure insurance is motivated by its members. That guides the decisions pure makes every day, including who benefits when the company does well. Today, nearly 170 million has been allocated to members. Learn more and see what membership means at pureinsurance.com. Pre-litch underwriters reciprocal exchange.
The amount of margin debt at US brokerages is now greater than the total amount of American credit card debt. More money is being borrowed to play with a stock market than we've racked up on our AMXs. And making profits with other people's money is great.
The problem is when markets go down.
You still have to cover that loan and the interest. If the price of the stock goes down too much, you have two choices. That's Heather Tuk's finance professor at Yale. You can either sell the stock to pay down that loan or post more margin to your account. That is, infuse more capital into your margin account.
In other words, Heather says, "Put up more cash or be forced to sell investments to cover the loan." In the US, investors can use margin trading for pretty much any stock, but it's different in India. So Heather and her co-author decided to take a look at how margin trades play out there.
In India, the regulators were in some ways kinds of academics and that they designed rules that made studying this question a lot easier. Easier because there's a dividing line in India between stocks that can be bought with margin and others that can't. She says that made it a great place for a natural experiment on whether margin trades
cause market instability. And what they found was, yes, margin mattered, especially during a financial crisis. It's during those downswings that we get this amplification. The margin basket of stocks went down significantly more than the basket of non-margin stocks during the crisis.
Many margin sellers were forced to sell their investments to cover loans. This forced selling helped amplify overall losses. A similar phenomenon just happened in the South Korean stock market. Right, investors there are excited about two companies, SK Heinix and Samsung. They make memory chips for AI data centers and, you know, as you've covered on the show,
lots of demand for these chips right now. SK Heinix and Samsung dominate South Korea's stock market. The value of both companies skyrocketed is more investors got excited about their chips.
This thing is so big and is moving so fast.
That's Yuri and Timmer, director of global macro at fidelity investments.
Semiconductor earnings have tripled in the last year, like it's crazy. A sort of in fast forward and it's just multiple dimensions more of what we might typically see in a boom bus cycle. Earlier this year, South Korea legalized single stock leveraged ETFs. These look just like a normal ETF on the outside, except there's extra leverage, futures,
and there's other financial tricks on the inside to multiply your returns. What could possibly go wrong? Yeah, there's a downside is that if the ETF loses value, the losses are also magnified. Now, these investments have been legal in the US since 2022.
South Korea wanted to keep up, so investors cut money and it's stock market. These ETFs became more popular in Korea as the value of those Semiconductor companies
grill, making up 20% of trading on the South Korean exchange on some days.
Yuri and is not a fan of these tools. I call a weapons of self destruction. I don't know why regulators approve these things. These pessimistic views seem to hold in Korea, at least. The value of its stock market plummeted 40% at one point.
The company still estimate booming demand for their memory chips, but investors got a little less excited. The leverage bets started to unwind and margin traders had to sell their investments. More than 3% of the South Korean adult population received a margin call.
“Their broker saying, "Hey, you need to sell something or put up more cash to cover these”
loans." We love seem to have little to do with their future prospects of these companies.
Eskihine XR revenue more than triple over the past year, and it has plenty of demand for
its chips. You look at the fundamentals of these companies, they're fabulous, but it's just a matter of you're in over your skis, and when you use leverage, you can lose all your capital. Yuri and is essentially saying that many South Korean investors took on too much risk, which completely blew up their accounts.
Goldman Sachs estimated that about 360,000 brokerage accounts are forced to sell all of their investments to cover their debts. The majority of these accounts belong to people under the age of 35, according to City Bank. Younger people felt confident taking on a lot of risk, and maybe had less experience in financial markets.
That's who got hurt. Now, is there a lesson for the United States? As we've discussed, we're seeing a record level of margin debt here. That here's the interesting thing. While there was limited interest in leverage ETFs initially, and the last couple of years,
it's spiked. And the Federal Reserve can do something about this, at least when it comes to margin debt. The bank has a little known job. The bank essentially tells investors how much money do you need in your pocket to borrow a dollar. Right, so if we go back to that example we started with, if you have 50 bucks to invest
in Apple and you want to invest a hundred dollars total, the fact could say, okay, we should be more cautious. The brokerage firm can loan you, say, $25, not $50. The Federal Reserve played around with this requirement in the years after the Great Depression.
Interestingly, that crash came after soaring margin debt fueled a bubble. Should the Fed get involved today? This is more complicated. Yes, margin debt is at a historic level, but Eurion says it's not growing as fast as it has in the past.
Of course, 2000 comes to mind that was, of course, the internet bubble. And the rate of change of margin debt then was 81%, today, it's about 40%. So considerably faster, your aim believes we are in a yellowzo, not a point of panic.
“That's why I'm saying that you got to look, you know, not just at the sentiment, but something”
has to crack in the fundamental story. The Fed hasn't touched these investing loan requirements since 1974, still. We wondered if now was a good time to revisit this requirement and break out a tool it hasn't used in decades. This would slow down the amount of new debt in the stock market.
We reached out to the Fed's press office, but could not get anyone to speak to us on the record. Eurion Timmer believes the Fed may not want to get involved with the margin trades for a simple reason. I think the Fed generally does not get into the stock market/bubble business to figure out nobody can predict these things.
Remember, Greenspan, especially called an Aztec of bubble in '96 and it ran for four more years. I think they're, at least, are humble enough to know they can't time these things. Spodding a bubble forming is easy, timing the pop is much more difficult. You don't want to shut down a party that could keep rocking for a while.
Wailing, I feel really confident about the outcome of a UFC fight this weekend. Oh, no. However, I only have $20 in my pocket.
“So I was wondering, can Polly Market led you this money and money?”
How much money do you have in your wallet right now?
The bank of Wailing, I don't carry cash, I'll have you.
After the break, some new research on just how many young people think of sports betting
is investing and how one state government is starting to put up guardrails. This message comes from home serve.
“The burst pipe, a dead water heater, the AC calling it quits, who do you call?”
Home serve is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs, with plans covering stuff basic homeowners insurance usually won't, instead of scrambling for a contractor. You make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust home serve right now. Go to home serve.com/podcast for 50% less your first year.
Any things compared to renewal price, avoid infloreative. On the next do-line from NPR. Let's listen to Josh Reddick's new walk-up song. Whether you love it or you hate it, walk-up music has become a huge part of major league baseball.
The need to secure and the attention of the fans is relentless. I've thought of my hearing things, I mean, I realize everybody's singing a lot. Listen to NPR's through line in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. On NPR's wildcard podcast, actress Julian Anderson says she's looking forward to getting old.
There is part of me that has always slightly fantasized about being in a home.
Watch or listen to that wildcard conversation on the NPR app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast. The line between investing and gambling is blurry now. With me for this next story, my co-host at the indicator, Adrian Ma. Yeah, get this.
In the past year, more than half of Gen Z say they've taken dollars in tenant for investing and put it towards sports gambling. And you can understand why sports betting seems like easy money, when many sports betting commercials advertise hundreds of dollars in free bets just for making a small deposit. The federal ban on sports betting was struck down eight years ago.
And we're just now learning the effects on younger people. For some people, sports betting is more than entertainment. They're trying to make real money with it. In a recent survey, about a quarter of Gen Z said they've used sports betting as a high-risk investment strategy or a way to accelerate some kind of goal.
Gen Z is anyone aged around 18 to 29.
“I think, you know, number one, it's not good.”
That's Danny Egan, Vice President of Behavioral Science and Investing at Betterment. They studied the relationship different generations have with investing and gambling. And we got some of the numbers you heard from their recent poll. I have friends who like, I don't know, collecting cars. But they're honest about the fact that that car, they're not making money on it.
It's a hobby. They enjoy it. They enjoy looking at the car. Dangerous aspects is when we start confusing our hobbies for investing. Dan says one reason why so many members of Gen Z are using investing dollars for gambling
is overconfidence. Like, I watch a ton of basketball. I can spot a winner. And also, some people in younger generations feel this economy just isn't working for them. So I think that's one of the drivers, is the idea that in order to get ahead, just like
doing my job saving regularly and focusing on my career isn't going to be enough. I have to have some big financial wins. But this isn't true across the board. Are you Gen Z? Yes.
Sam Maskehara is a 27-year-old incoming PhD student at the University of Michigan. And to be clear, he is three years younger than me. So we are not talking about an alien population here. Sam used to bet on basketball. And he saw the ads promising hundreds of dollars in free bets for just a small deposit.
And one of Sam's co-workers said, hey, if you sign up for a sports betting account, then I get a reward too. So he was like, if you join, there's this promotion going on. And I figured it was like five bucks. The MBA increase season was just starting.
So I figured it'd be something to try. Hmm.
“Why does this feel like a after-school special in the making?”
Sam says he'd used just about any platform that had a bonus. Bet MGM, fan dual, even the old ESPN platform.
And he says that he never bet more money than he was willing to lose.
But worries about people even younger than him, Gen Alpha. He taught high schoolers. I was seeing economically disadvantaged students. Like they would tell me like, this is an easy bet. Or like this is like an easy way to make money.
He says that some students would find an adult to sign them up for a sports betting account and start playing. These are 16 year old kids. They did not have the self-control to say, I'll only use the promotion money. I'd hear kids talking.
And he's like, they're putting up like $200 of their money on a random basketball game.
To be clear, we're just talking about the sports books here, like fandle and ...
kings, not prediction markets, that's a slightly different beast. Yeah.
“And we've reported on how prediction markets like Polymarket and Kalshi can advertise”
to vulnerable people. You can find a link to that in the show notes. State governments are starting to react to the negative effects of sports betting, like addiction. Colorado just passed a new law that introduced new rules for sports betting companies.
For example, no more depositing money with a credit card. If you want a gamble, you can't take out debt. Matt Ball is a democratic state senator in Colorado. He co-sponsored the bill with a Republican colleague, Byron Pelton. Matt says he's not banning sports gambling, in fact, he's gambled himself.
I've bet on sports before, I've been the commissioner of a fantasy league for about 15 years. But he sees issues with Gen Z and gambling, specifically young men. A couple of constituents came to talk with him about it. But that led to a lot more conversations with everyone from mothers who had sons come home from college having put $15,000 on the credit card and one night to national experts
in a problem gambling. Matt is worried about sports betting as a public health issue. Yeah.
“And problem gambling is associated with more bankruptcies, loan defaults, domestic violence,”
and suicides. So Matt and Byron's big idea, at some friction, limit the ways that sports books can reach their customers. Colorado became the first state where sports betting has allowed to ban sports books from sending customers push notifications on their phones and text messages.
Reminders like, hey, looks like a game is on. Want a bet? Another part of their law is limiting the number of deposits that a customer can make in a single day. That number is now six.
At first, I thought this sounded kind of nuts.
Customers can always move to another sports book, find ways around it.
But Matt explained why he wanted to limit the number of times, gamblers could add money to their accounts in just one day. When you have a problem, you might set a budget. I've got a hundred dollars. I'm going to bet it this weekend.
You blow through that. Hey, I got to make it back. You deposit $200, right? You lose that. You deposit $400.
You just keep chasing your losses.
“One thing that we want to measure is how effective is that?”
And Matt says, ultimately, this bill is a test. Would a deposit limit even make a difference?
I'd be the first to admit, we don't have any data.
So in some sense, we're kind of guessing here. You rarely hear law makers just say we're kind of guessing with a law, Adrian. I mean, I guess it speaks to just how novel this situation is. They're kind of taken the spaghetti at the wall approach to bill writing. But in Byron's bill is a rare bipartisan agreement to find some solutions for real problem.
We had everyone from, you know, organizations that care about mental health and care about kids to, you know, groups on their religious right, who have a, you know, fundamental objection to gambling, who were some of the same groups that opposed the legalization of gambling back in 2019. Colorado signed the bill into law this summer and Matt says, legislators and other states
are starting to reach out to them. At least 10 other states don't allow betters to make deposits with a credit card, like Colorado, a number that's growing. Dan Egan from Betterment, the behavioral finance guy, he says there may be another optimistic angle.
I feel like every generation lives in a new context that was different than the previous ones context when they were that age. And isn't highly possible what we're seeing is just a new coming of age to worry about how people engage with this stuff. As generations grow older, they may realize that sports betting is not easy money or any
kind of investment strategy. Dan pointed a research on day trading in the stock market, which you could argue is adjacent to gambling. Like traders are trying to make money from quick swings in the market. The research found that most day traders generally quit after losing money for a couple
of years. Maybe it's an expensive education, but hopefully they will learn. Using money consistently can get old, and some people in younger generations already understand the game without losing money. Like Sam, our former Gen Z sports gambler, he says he took the promotion money, bet on
some games, and then cashed out.
"I never bet any of my own money though, that felt I could trap that I didn't want to get
into. I won probably over like $1,000, not anything like crazy, but it's still like it was fun." And as one is a thousand dollars, not a lot of money, I feel like I could have some fun with a grand. "Oh Ricky, don't fall into the trap!"
Take the bonus and run. A great way to get more planet money, or give planet money to a friend who needs it, is our book, has a whole chapter on how to think about investing. It is planet money, a guide to the economic forces that shape your life, thanks to everyone who rated it, and reviewed it, please keep that up.
And if you don't already subscribe to Planet Money's Daily Podcast, that's where today's episodes first appeared. One slice of the economy explained in every day in 10 minutes or less, follow the indicator
"Plan and Money.
Today's episodes of the Indicator from Planet Money were produced by Cory Bridges and Cooper
“Cats McKim, Engineering at Travis Hagan in Scinaloo, Frateau.”
This fact checked in Pesiro Watas, Julia Richie, edited our story on gambling, Kate Cannon, edits the Indicator. This episode of Planet Money was produced by Jade Sneed, Alex Goldmarking, is our executive producer.
“A co-host, worthy wonderful, way-lin-wong, amazing, Adrian Ma.”
I'm Ricky Mulvey, this is NPR, thanks for listening. This message comes from Home Serve, a burst pipe, a dead water heater, the AC calling it quits. Who do you call?
“Home Serve is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs, with plans covering stuff”
basic homeowners and insurance usually won't. Instead of scrambling for a contractor, you make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust Home Serve right now.
Go to home serve.com/podcast for 50% last year first year, savings compared to renewal
price, void in Florida. The company behind-flock cameras sold itself as a boon for public safety, but these cameras have had another consequence. More surveillance.
When you kind of give thousands of cops access to this very powerful system, they're going
to touch the electric fence and see what they can do, is flock making communities safer. Find this in more stories from the indicator from Planet Money on the NPR app.
