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Welcome to Plates Haven, America. I'm John Favre. I'm John Levitt. I'm Tommy Dittor. I was enthusiastic. It was.

That's good. Well, on today's show, we're going to talk about Trump's premature victory lap on Iran. He's attempts to win back Joe Rogan with psychedelics and cash retail, suing the Atlantic because over 2 dozen people,

basically said he's a paranoid idiot who drinks too much.

We'll also cover what was a big weekend for potential Democratic presidential contenders who are very much stepping up their public appearances and honing their stump speeches, then Ilan Goldenberg of J Street talks to Tommy about how pro is real progressives are trying to make their case. Speaking of progressives trying to make their case, if you ever wondered what you could be

doing to fight back against the right wing propaganda that's clogging up all of our feeds and our screens, do we have an idea for you? You could become a Kirk and media subscriber. How's that? Yeah, it'll help you unclog.

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Head on over to Kirk at dot com slash friends and subscribe. All right. Let's get to the news. Donald Trump spent Friday counting all of his chickens before they hatched firing off a series of manic all-caps posts where he announced that Iran

had agreed to quote never close the straight of Hormuz again.

Would turn over all their enriched uranium. Would receive no money for it. Would remove all sea mines. And that Israel would be prohibited from bombing Lebanon any longer. Trump then continued his premature celebration at a TPUSA event in Arizona where he said this. Iran is just announced that the straight of Hormuz is fully open and ready for business. This process should go very quickly. And that most of the points are already

negotiated and agreed to. It'll be very happy. The USA will get all nuclear dust. You know what the nuclear dust is? That was that white powdery substance created by our B2 bombers. Those great B2 bombers late one evening. Seven months ago, no money will exchange hands in any way, shape or form. So right after this, maybe as he was speaking, everything appeared to fall apart.

ships, which led Trump to threaten war crimes again. Fire on an Iranian ship that tried to run the US naval blockade and seize the ship, which in turn led the Iranians to threaten retaliation. And yet it seems as of this recording late Monday afternoon, a second round of negotiations in Pakistan may still happen. The latest is that J.D. events in the US delegation seem to be planning to go. And while the Iranians haven't publicly confirmed their attendance to Iranian

officials told the times that they'll likely attend if J.D. events goes still some confusing. First time in history, anyone says I'm not going to that advantage unless J.D. Vance is there. Maybe the last. Other than his literal wedding. So it seems like Trump was either lying or heavily exaggerating on Friday about the progress. They'd made an ideal or he pissed off the Iranians by spiking the ball before the deal was done.

“Or maybe a little bit of both. I don't know. Tell me what do you think. What happened here?”

I think he was just making shit up. He was tweeting out his wish list of outcomes for talks that had not yet happened. And then he kind of elaborated there, T.P.O.S.A. with the golden dust. The dust. The nuclear debris. Well created by RB2 bomber. The nuclear dust is his way of squaring the circle between we obliterated the program and we have to fight a war against them. It's all about the dust because it's just dust.

Our, of course, it's going to start to work. But you have, but even last week, it was clear Iran was saying in their tweets that the Strait of Hormuz is only partially open. The Foreign Minister of Ossarachi said that if Strait of Hormuz is declared completely open for the remaining period of the ceasefire on the coordinated route, that's very important, which is like, they're a little part of the coast close to their shoreline so they can control

everybody. That was what was open. Trump was saying, "Oh, it'll never be close to again."

“Israel will never bomb Lebanon again. It was all, they're going to turn over their stockpile,”

which is the dust. It was all just made up. And then the other problem is, within Iran itself, there's all these reports of an ongoing power struggle between elected officials, the IRGC, the Nationalists, first, the Islamists. It's not really clear who's in charge over there. It's like 1979, the kind of first few months. In the way you know that was manifesting was the economist had a great piece today where they talked about how the Islamabad talks, the Iranian delegation

had 80 people in it, including 30 who were described as decision makers. That's rolling deep. That's like a state that you want any cuts. A lot of cooks in that case. Yeah, too many cooks. So, um, who cooks and not enough dust? Yeah, who knows what's going to keep them all going, but as a mess. Yeah, apparently the Trump administration officials told Axios today that there is this genuine, they kind of blamed it on the genuine split between the negotiating team and the IRGC.

They also, though, admitted to Axios, they said that the Iranians never, ever,

at no point agreed to give up enrichment permanently. They certainly never agreed to do anything for free. They also said Trump is willing to lift sanctions. Give somebody even though he's not saying that publicly. And release a bunch of frozen assets, billions of dollars. Yeah, there was also a story about the six cruise ships that had to like sneak through the straight ahead of her moves during this opening, which I just, there's something so funny about this.

It's like, like, no, honey, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not so close to call. I know it's such a bummer. It's such a bummer that they're empty. We just be like, we're going to do the show or at least like a cannonball run in front of the ship. That's something you just don't tell the passengers. Yeah, just look out the window wave on your left. That's not a rocket launcher.

“That drones are just fireworks. The beautiful Gulf. Yeah, I'm like, I think increasingly,”

we just need to look at whatever Trump is posting about this as a completely separate, like, is he lying? Is he telling the truth? It's a bit. It's not even, it's a performance piece. It's just bullshit. It's just, it's not even tethered to what he's hearing or not, maybe it's in some way a version of what he hopes the outcome will be. But based on this and more of the reporting that we'll talk about in a minute, just he treats the social media has

is basically just about what he wants to vent about how he's feeling and what he wants the public to believe is going on. It bears absolutely no resemblance to what he's hearing internally, to what we're conveying to the Iranians to what the internal discussions look like. It is just a separate track. So he's just like he's journaling. Yeah. He's just doing therapy. Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes it's what he, sometimes it's therapy, sometimes it's like a vision board. Did you guys

read all the truths today? There's a lot today. There's like a lot. Some of the, the, the, a couple things that stood out to me there, you know, he says I'm winning, I'm winning a war by a lot and then goes on to like mock Iran for losing again. He attacked Obama on the JCPOA. He said Obama gave 1.7 billion dollars in all capa letters. Green cash. He emptied out all the cash from banks in

DC, Virginia and Maryland. Those bankers said they've never seen anything like it before.

bang to bang with like just sort of like all the banks. Like in the movie Assassin's we have to wait

“for a couple hours where they count all the money. He didn't get one that started. He said despite”

World War I lasting and then he goes on and talks about the exact length in years and days of World War II, World War I, Korean War Vietnam Iraq and then he said I promised six weeks and by the way, I am under no pressure whatsoever to make a deal, although it will all happen relatively quickly. Time is not my adversary. Oh, I would say that I would say exactly time time time time in the actual world. Yeah, I would say called Democrats traders, uh, brag about building the greatest military

our countries ever seen, including adding the space force, that's something that we had to get into

today. Uh, and then also Israel never talked me into the war with Iran. Sure, buddy. My, okay,

my Israel never talked me into the war with the Iran T-shirt. That's a lot of question. I just like, as is giving a speech, a meant to be a kind of political booster speech and you say great news, everybody, the straight of hormones is open. Like that wasn't a problem two months ago. So, so like he, he, what he, the lesson he took from the Iraq war was that, um, the one most successful episode in the whole war was the mission accomplished banner because he basically has been doing

that every single day since the war began. Yeah. Every day, it's we won the war, every single day. It's we won the war or we're going to destroy civilization. That's it. I'm not pressured to end it soon, but I'm gonna end it soon, but I don't care when I end it because we've already won, then we're going to, but what we're going to accomplish all this stuff. Do you see that, um, Jared Kushner and Steve Woodcoff are being referred to as Whitt Kush. It's so dramatic circles.

Whitt Kush, according to Playbook, Kush Whitt Kush Whitt's on better. Just go off. Jerk off. Jerk off. Jerk off. Jerk off. Jerk off. Jerk off. Jerk off. Jerk off.

Jerk off. That works for me anyway. Um, there was also an incredible lawsuit journal story

over the weekend about how Trump has been, quote, grappling with his own fears about this war. Namely, that of too many American troops were killed or captured. His presidency could end up like Jimmy Carter, so that seems to be the main takeaway for him. Um, I also found this part notable. When a White House advisor asked Trump about his, uh, remember the Easter Sunday post, uh, the threatened war crimes and ended with, quote, "open the fucking straight, you crazy bastards,

or you're all be living in hell, praise be to Allah." Um, because I'm happy Easter. Um, so Trump said about this post, quote, he came up with the, with the Allah idea himself. He said he wanted to see him as unstable and insulting as possible, believing it could bring the Iranians to the table, the senior administration officials said, uh, nailed the first part, I guess.

“I guess make it the peace. I'd quibble with the analysis of it. I don't think you need to”

the praise be to Allah tweet for the Iranians to think you're unstable, um, and insulting to them. That's pretty well established. I think with the crazy bastards, yeah, and all the bombing. You guys think that telling people that you're just pretending to be a lunatic to get a deal, kind of ruins the point of pretending to be a lunatic to get a mad man theory. Well, with, yeah, you read the piece, like, oh, he really was just, it was just, yeah, right.

Well, all right, you, you are what you pretend to be, but he, he's just sort of jerking everybody around. And I look back to like that concern, which I was completely legitimate if anyone was threatening that day, then you read the piece, and he was also meeting about the ballroom and doing fundraisers and kind of doing normal business that day. And there was a little bit of like the alarm that wasn't going off, the dog that wasn't barking. Like, there was no, we weren't getting reporting that he was in the

situation room laying out the final parts of the plan. And so it confirms what we're just talking about, which is, but what he is posting publicly is not coming out of a conversation with the negotiators. It's not some part of some like public facing strategy and private facing strategy. It's just his separate stream of consciousness. He has a kind of whatever contractors mentality

“about negotiations. He clearly, like I, as I think the Iranian said, assumed as a lot of people have”

assumed does not want the economic pain that comes with a long-term conflict. So he has to counteract that with by seeming unstable and issuing these big threats and seeming glossary, but behind the scenes, that's all just a show, which is what the Iranians do, because they called his bluff that day, and you know, didn't relent to what he was saying and the lead up to this civilization destroying threat. Yeah, the story, I think, really drives home that the whole war is just an exercise in

ego and narcissism and stupidity. There was, there was the Venezuelal operation. That was easy in Trump's mind. He was told by all the sick of fans like Lindsey Graham and if he'd hex up, that Iran would be easy to, and that he could be an historic figure and reshape the geopolitical order and be better than Obama and so here we are. And so, you know, there's also the more detail about how in the opening days they were presenting him hype videos of explosions. And he was like,

this is cool. Why isn't the press just reporting this? Look at all the things blowing up. And then it's also sounds like hexat told him that Iran wouldn't close the struggle for moves or the people around him or at least Trump was telling them that. I assume someone told him that they wouldn't respond in the most obvious way possible. And so, Trump was shocked when it happened in

one global oil prices spike. And that ultimately, though, like, what is upsetting him about what's

compared to Jimmy Carter or Joe Biden, that is what is terrifying him and what he cannot summit. And so, yeah, he's changing the subject. He's talking to his architect about the ball room or, like, anything he can. Multiproving this. Multiproving this. Multiproving meetings a week on the ball room. I thought he refers to he that he sees himself as the, quote, the general contractor of the ball room.

“Well, I think in his mind, he would see a successful outcome in Iran is a legacy item.”

He puts that on the same plane as the ball room as a legacy item. Like, it's all in the arc one level for him, you know. And I look, if the reason he is worried about US casualties and chaos in the Middle East is for reasons of self preservation and legacy, like, that's a fine motivation. But, because at least the outcome could be the same. But, his other problem is,

he can never risk seeming like he is not completely dominating and winning at every given moment.

Like, I don't know if the negotiations would be further along right now if he just simply shut his fucking mouth and stopped posting about stuff. But, I certainly think he's made it worse. Like, if you, instead of saying that you won all the time and just pissing off the Iranians and say, oh, they did this and they're destroyed. Imagine if every time someone asked about the negotiations, Trump and the White House were just like, "When we have something to report,

we have good news to report. We'll let you know." Otherwise, we're just engaged in negotiations. He's on the big under promise over the river guy.

“Well, there's a bit, like, it also, like, what is the endgame of this? Any actual deal?”

Not when he's describing what a real deal will involve, you know, puts in takes. It'll have compromises on our side compromises that will, in some way, resemble the parts of the deal. He's been mocking for years that the Obama administration did with Iran. There's only so many levers that this kind of an agreement will have. And so the hope to me is you come to some sort of conclusion to this that results in a deal that he pretends is some kind of dominating victory,

and it is understood by everyone that Donald Trump is going to call this the greatest deal in human history, even if it resembles in many ways, the Obama deal. I got to the hope, right? Anyone else has given himself the metal of honor? So that is in there, too. He's kidding. That keeps coming up. That keeps me. It was a joke. I'll talk about that. What's the story? Was the times the other day about how the arch,

he's building for himself went from like 70 feet to 150 feet, now it's 250 feet. Yeah. You can throw out the planes. They got the planes again. Even like the architect that was for, it was like, no, this is crazy. You can't do this. It's going to dwarf like, you know, a bunch of veterans, morals, and monuments. Before we move on, I just want to call your attention

to a political piece from Friday that has already become to me, just an incredible artifact

from a simpler time. The headline is Big sigh of relief. Republicans finally get some good news. Can it last? And I was like, I saw him like, what is this about in the lead? Republicans are breathing a little easier this weekend, cautiously optimistic. The Trump has finally found an off ramp to end the war. With oil dropping below $90 a barrel, the stock market making new all-time highs and gas down eight cents a gallon this week, some feel the slightest

bit of a wind at their back for the first time since February. And then it's got representative Carlos Corbello saying, Big sigh of relief from congressional Republicans today. It's just, it's so funny to like, to like do that story and for Republicans to like go on the record for that story, when there's been like an hour after Trump said, everything's open, everything's great. It just goes to show that it's like, it's not just Trump like, this is how this is like how

Washington operates. Yeah, DC media operates the whole thing. And there's some, you know, like, oh, they're trying to say, they're trying to, they're wish casting to Trump, see, like, this is, this is good when we de-escalate this will be something that you'll get positive precedent from

your congressional. It's also a window until like the second, no matter what the deal is,

no matter how bad the deal is, no matter how different it is from the JCPO, no matter what it is, it's going to be like, like the second, there is any kind of a deal in the war's over, it's going to be like, all right, now Republicans are feeling bullish again on the midterms. Great. Yeah, look for that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we can talk about that. We can talk about that. Pot to have America's brought you by Midmobile. I don't know about you, but I'm keeping my money

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work some things out, it could be anxiety about the world, the relationship issues, it would be trouble at work. Whatever it is, you will benefit from talking with a therapist. And life feels overwhelming therapy can help sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/psa. That's majority of Americans still hate the war. I think Trump's doing a shitty job, a brand new NBC News poll looks just like all the others. Trump is that 37% approval, 63% disapproval, including 50%

who say they strongly disapprove, record lows all around. And his numbers are even worse on around and the cost of living. Probably not helped by his energy secretary telling CNN over the weekend that, quote, it could be next year before gas is under $3 a gallon again. Public and starting to panic, they may lose the Senate as well as the House. And you can tell the White House is nervous because they're making public overtures to win back one-time ally Joe Rogan,

who's been saying things like this about the war. Most people that voted for Trump or wanted Trump to be an office, one of the things that was attractive was this no more wars. Sure, of course. And now we're in one of the craziest ones. What the fuck are we doing? Like how is this still going on? Well, over the weekend, Trump made us a prize announcement that he's fast-tracking FDA review of psychedelics as a medical treatment, an issue Rogan is passionate about, and you can tell

Trump is too from his mastery of the terms involved. It's called eye-boking treatment eye-boking. Remember the name? Is that pronounced relatively properly what you say? I don't want to get it wrong.

Eye-boking 'cause it's so important and experienced an 80 to 90 percent reduction in symptoms of

depression and anxiety within one month. Can I have so please? I'll take whatever it takes. I don't have time to be impressed. You know, if you stay busy enough, maybe that works too.

“That's what I do. That's not like, that's not a question. I sent President Trump some”

information. We have a giganticopia problem in this country. I sent him that information. The text message but came back sounds great. You want FDA approval? Let's do it. For 56 years, we've lived under those terrible conditions. We're free of that now. We're free of that now. Thanks to all these people that we see next to me and thanks to President Trump. We don't respect you. It's a little bit more liberal than you. That's okay. I have a lot of friends

in a liberal. Interesting window into how the sausage gets made, huh? You just text the president something and suddenly the FDA independent regulatory agency just fast tracks into a problem. Yeah, this is a good outcome on this specifics here, but Joe Rogan texting Trump's some medical information and so being like, cool, let's do it. That's not a good process because you're pissing me on the war and some training that you're back. So whatever you want, I don't

know what this drug is. It sounds great. I'll take some, but I just stay off to pressure and by just just keep moving. I just keep posting. Yeah, there'll be a moment. If you don't want to feel sad,

“never be alone with your thoughts. Just keep moving. Just keep your family. That's why it's a”

Trump thing for sure. Get out there. Just just turn the TV on, turn it louder. Keep posting. Got a post through it. Yeah, I do think what wrote like, I think it's worth saying that this is something people like about Trump, the idea that it doesn't have the red tape in the sludge of the normal government that there's stuff that should be happening that isn't because government is slow and stupid and there should be a president just says, oh, this is a good idea.

There's good studies. Let's do it. And there's there's two big problems with it. Real abundance coded there. A little bit. Well, there's somewhere between being able to build a training California and Joe Rogan being the ZARP for modern magic mushrooms. But the problem with it with

a process. It's just who knows him and who has access. So, yeah, Rogan can get this done and maybe that's a good thing. But it also means the CEO of United can give Trump a million dollars for the inaugural and then soft pitch creating the biggest airline fight two in the world and potentially get it done because Trump knows him and it seems like it's a big fun deal to do. And when the and when the resulting merger sucks for people, Trump's like, oh, I don't have to deal with that.

I know. I have my free guitar guitar playing. They're pretty. They wish they hadn't made that gift. Right. Oh, you're mad about the things I did before I left. Get in line. I'm trying to stay

“ahead of depression. But the other, and the other part of it though, and I think it's like actually”

just as important is he actually doesn't other than other than like the like he can break things very quickly. He can do that with those. He can shut down agencies. But when he finishes these events where he can move in fast and do and things, beat that other people couldn't do, nothing fucking happens. Joe Biden was really fucking slow on getting marijuana off of schedule one. He put out an order to review it in 2022. Trump says, I'm going to fast track it. Right. That gave him a real opportunity

that he shouldn't have had. But it hasn't happened. It didn't. It's not. Just marijuana remains a schedule one drug as we're sitting here and talking. It has been held up ever since he wrote sign that order over a year ago. Pam Bonny couldn't get it done. There's an opening for the administrative law judge that could be the one to approve it. And by the way, even if it does happen, there's a bunch of Republicans who are lined up to sue to prevent it from going into effect. So

he gets the press event about how quickly he can do things. But meanwhile, he actually stops paying attention. Doesn't really focus on it. Doesn't really give a fuck. It gets the good headline

and never really happens. I do love the events where you can tell he's learning the details in real

time. And he's like kind of doesn't met a commentary on himself as he's reading the facts about though. That sounds good to pressure. I don't need that one. But on I begame, there was a great piece in your times about I beggining treatment by Robert Draper. That's worth reading through the episode of The Daily that you can listen to it to. It's helped a lot of people. It's helped a lot of people start going from PTSD to pressure and truly debilitating mental health challenges,

especially veterans. And the cause was picked up by Rick Perry, Kirsten Sinema, some interesting people, Sean Ryan, who's got a huge show on YouTube with a bunch of veterans. He's a veteran himself in former Navy SEAL. As talked about using I begame to shake his addiction to drinking drugs a lot of stuff. So, Rogan at a bunch of conversations about this with people impacted, including Sean Ryan, including Rick Perry, including a couple of people at that event there. And it just, it did

not, I think it's actually a really good outcome. It didn't make sense that you like you couldn't do medical trials on PTSD, but you could go to Mexico and get treatment, like what, let's stupid. So I'm glad Trump cut through the red tape here. Like I'm sure Joe Rogan will kind of like give Trump his flowers on this issue rightfully. So I doubt it changes his concern about Iran

“or the fact that he's talking about it. Yeah, I think it's important for me. Like it doesn't,”

it doesn't short-circuit the actual reclassification process with your approval process for the for the treatments themselves, but for this for the studying. And it's not just for the medical studies, and it's, I begame, but it's also MDMA and take it out of my throat. So it's like a whole yet, it's a whole category. I was at a fish concert recently. I think a lot of people were in that study. A lot of studies. A lot of people do in a lot of studies. A lot of studies. Yeah, the number one place for

studying is a good place to study. Yeah, on the Rogan, like I think, it would if Rogan smart, he will realize that this was he got Trump to do something he wanted him to do, and he will go back to continue, he will criticize him when he wants to criticize him and not criticize him when he thinks he's doing something good. Like it could just be like that. And I don't think it'll change anything big. I think it's smart politics, probably on on both parts on Trump's behalf and on Rogan's behalf.

Like good for Rogan for just saying, fuck it. They think they need me because they see them critical

of them. Like, let's get something good at them. Like, great good for him. But if you're amazing thing to do. But if you're a Rogan listener and have heard Joe Rogan talk about Donald Trump in Iran and the Epstein files and all the other things now that Rogan has criticized Trump for, I think you're not an idiot. This isn't changing anything for me. No, this isn't the thing. I don't get like the Rupert bird. I could approach the Trump as always this smart one. You've got

like Fox News doing the propaganda, but then the Wall Street Journal is kicking the shit out of him, like reserve some optionality, man. Like, yeah, show them. You can throw a punchy respects that. Yeah, that is very true. All right. Speaking of infamous podcasters, we should talk about the FBI director who is suing the Atlantic over an absolutely brutal and somewhat terrifying story about his management style and personal behavior that's sourced to more than two dozen people,

including, quote, current and former FBI officials and staff at law enforcement and intelligence agencies. He is called, quote, erratic suspicious of others prone to jumping to conclusions before

“he has necessary evidence. I'll always a great quality in an FBI director. That's what you want.”

I think that you always want the top cop. Just jump into conclusions before you have evidence.

He's also accused of, quote, conspicuous in the abbreviation and unexplained absences and described as a national security vulnerability. He's reportedly been so drunk, so often,

had difficulty waking him up. This is from the piece, quote, a request for breaching equipment, normally used by SWAT and hostage rescue teams to quickly gain entry into buildings, was made last year because Patel had been unreachable behind locked doors. Anyway, cash is handling this well. Here he is announcing his lawsuit on Maria Bartiramo show. You want to attack my character? Come at me. Bring it on. I'll see you in court.

So you're going to sue them? Absolutely. It's coming tomorrow. Chemaro, you will be dropping a lawsuit against the Atlantic magazine. Yes. Yes, I will. For defamation. And because, you know, what Maria? We have to fight back against the fake news. He looks drunk. Put a tie on. Yeah, I'll be filing it tomorrow, but don't

expect it before noon. I'm going to roll into court to file this bad boy. I heard the problem

“is he's actually down a podcaster after Bongino results. Oh, yeah. That's why he's kind of struggling.”

He needs more podcasters. Yeah, send more podcasters. Walk ahead, Dan. Uh, Dan. What do you guys think of the Atlantic's piece? Fine. I mean, look, just worth saying. Cash Patel shouldn't have this job to give him.

He's not remotely qualified to be FBI director in the first place. He's a low-level DOJ

lawyer than a capital Hill staffer. Then he got sucked into the Trump orbit. And now he's the FBI director. This is crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. There's been a lot of reporting about how we treated the job like a joke, like it was fantasy camp. There was, uh, he's focused on the image in the perks. Like he used the, the private jet to fly to the Olympics. He's flying around to see his girlfriend. Remember, he went to a place called the Boondoggle Ranch for a week

and off of hunting with a big GOP donor. Um, and then also there's reports that he just him and Dan Bungida would just freak out about like what Twitter thought of them and plan their tweets, not like investigations and things. Um, look, that's interesting. Yeah. But this story does make him sound like a genuine danger to the country. Like he is paranoid, prone to emotional outbursts and pulse of, he's so bad at managing the building that good people are leaving.

And like, he is drunk. And let's just be, he is drunk on the job. The FBI director is a 24/7 job. You don't get a, a night out from the terrorists or the bad guys. And so the question is, why is he

still there? And the answer is, because he will go after Trump's enemies and Trump knows this.

And now that he's even more damage, he's probably going to step that up and go that extra mile to prosecute John Brennan or whoever. Um, and that's, it's scary. Yeah. The Trump likes his, his cabinet secretary's weak and dependent upon him. But this has you think crosses the line into probably two-week into dependent in the same way you saw. Pam Bonding, Cristinaum, kind of sweatily trying to regain their good graces. It kind of crosses the line that you can't

“come back from. I'll just say, honestly, no one's sweating harder than him. No, this guy's, yeah,”

well, it's just, and just, it's just, it's not that bad. It has a smell. Yeah, the, I had a different reaction, which is, I saw this a little bit the way I saw I set the airports. Like the more I set the airports, the fewer of them that are in American cities. And, and look, I think it is terrible to have someone like Ashptel in charge of the FBI. There's no meeting he is in that he makes better, sober or otherwise. And so, but the idea that he's, according to the report in Vegas in the

poodle room, a top, the fountain blue hotel, I went and looked at how you get into this private club of the poodle room. Yeah. And it is so exclusive for American Express Cardholders. All right, it is available only to private members, people on a certain level of the hotel, and a certain kind of sweet and exclusive to certain holders of American Express credit cards, charge cards. So, so that's interesting. The part of the to me that is the most alarming is not

how he is absent and drinking all the time. It is the way through firings and attrition. The FBI has lost a lot of key people. There was this story. There's also a story last week by ProPublica about 75 people that were part of different public integrity units, cyber units, election units, that have all been forced out in left replaced by Trump diehards and people that are part of the election interference. Operation, and now you have career people and people in the states

on phone calls with DHS and the people representing the federal government are the cooks who they used to be suing from the outside. You go from as a secretary of state or a law enforcement official in a state trying to fight some of these people. Next thing you know, they're the people representing DHS on the calls. And so senior serious people are leaving and kind of cooks and cranks and Trump anti-Olections. Elits are coming in. Not to me is the biggest and most dangerous

part who's going to want to fucking report to this guy who apparently had a panic attack because

“his email wasn't working and he thought he'd been fired. That's what they reported.”

Not opening anecdote. And by the way. It's amazing. Can't get into his team. Can't get into his some part of the system. But probably his password was didn't. Couldn't remember his password or something. And then he was like called. I've been fired. I've been fired. I've been fired. And then

like news goes around the FBI headquarters. Always gone. He's gone. He's gone. He's gone. They were like,

no, no, it's just a technical difficulties. He's fine. And then the lawsuit clearly put together

or tell at this point. They were referred to this in their lawsuit as a made up rumor basically

“confirming that the room that he was locked out of his computer and the rumor did at some point”

exists. And then in the lawsuit, they say director Patel does not drink to access at these establishments. The Ned something in the poodle room. Doesn't drink to access there or anywhere else.

And this has not and has never been a source of concern across the government. They are claiming

in their lawsuit against the Atlantic that no one in the government is concerned about cash Patel's drinking. Quite a claim to make from a Sunday to a Monday. It's just also a claim that has nothing to do with proving the lawsuit or the allegation itself. In order for them to win this lawsuit because this is they're doing defamation based on what over over two dozen sources told the reporter. So basically the way that you win a lawsuit like this is basically the reporter has to

say that she didn't believe any of her sources at all. The over 24 that she talked to and yet she published it anyway because she was had a she hated cash Patel and wanted him to suffer. Yeah,

“and she got all this information and she's like, I don't care that all these people are telling”

me this information. It's all wrong. And I have published it anyway. Yeah, video of him drinking to access at the fucking limit. We have proof of him flying off half cock because he posted crazy things that we all saw that went beyond the investigation. The proof is publicly available forget showing that it wasn't true or that the sources didn't say it. She could just point to the actual public public videos that he himself has been in. This is also like the 10th story about him being a

clown. There was an article in the Times earlier this year about him going to a five eyes conference in the UK as like our closest at intelligence allies and cash Patel's team said he wanted to go to a Premier League soccer games. He wanted to go jet skiing in London. He wanted to go on a helicopter tour. This is an absolute joke. This guy is a laughable. I do, you know, before no him in Bondi, I would have said like Trump's just going to keep him like he keeps all of them. But he seems to be on

a bit of a tear recently and I just feel like what's her name too. Yeah, yeah, I just I want to mention that. Sorry, Chavez. So right before we recorded the news broke that Labor Secretary

Lori Chavez for Raymer has resigned. She's the third cabinet member to do. So in the last month

then a half. And she was under internal investigation from complaints about her conduct and history of her staffers also an alleged affair with the security staffer also using taxpayer funds for personal travel and also like cash Patel drinking also texting staffer to be like Savvy be question mark. Yeah, Savvy be my last going to ask in the staffers just to bring up

“a bottle of wine to the hotel room. I don't know. Is that the worst?”

Maybe it's not a long night. Maybe. Part of a pattern, perhaps. Yeah, so she's gone. She's gone to have to. That's another. She resigned although I'm sure she sounds like she was pushed out and she's and then the White House announced she's going to the private sector. She's just like Pam Bondi. She's going to be one of those. What is it? The shield for the central Americas or whatever Cristino's fake job. They didn't even give her a fake. It sounds like with Pamela's. They decided

to stop giving fake jobs after no. Like Pam Bondi's just getting private sector. She is getting private sector. It's been the kids of death recently. If somebody at the White House says that the president has utmost confidence in his cabinet secretaries because soon after they're gone. But Caroline Levitt put out a statement about Patel in this article that doesn't even

say that as part of it, she says director Patel remains a critical player on the administration's

lawn order team. It's basically the equivalent of like a valued member of our law enforcement operation. It sounds like he could be put fucking anywhere. He's going to be the deputy to know him at the shield of the Americas and like the next 48 hours. Maybe before we're done recording. Wild. Wild. It's that somehow p-hegset still has his job. Yeah, that really sucks. I'd say of America's brought to you by him's boner time. For that, the nickel of every time saw me said that, you know,

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candidacies until shortly after the midterms this November. But a lot of the potential candidates are really ramping up their public appearances and attending events alongside their potential opponents. This last weekend was particularly busy, Kamala Harris and the Bashir and

“Cory Booker, or campaigning with other Democrats in Detroit, AOC and Kamala Harris were in Chicago.”

Pete Buttigieg held an event in Tulsa in John Ossoff held another Senate reelection rally in Georgia. We thought it'd be useful to just react to a few clips from the weekend that caught our attention so we can talk about how Democrats are thinking about shaping the party's message ahead of

2026 and of course, 2028. First up, John Ossoff in Georgia. The faithless president

depicts himself as Christ while he plunges the nation into wars of choice. While he and his family raking billions from foreign princes. While he plunders our health care to cut taxes for the rich. Meanwhile, rent, power, groceries, and health care have all hit all time highs this year. While you pay more for everything, the first family's wealth is growing by billions of dollars. Because they're crooks. I like that. They're crooks. What do you guys think? I think because

they're crooks is the message. He brings it all back to corruption. I think it's smart to mention the story of the week, the Christ imagery and the kind of wrap that into this broader message of the day about corruption that he has. My little nitpick was I want everyone to stop saying

“war of choice. That's what I want that to either say. I've done it too. It's just the phrasing”

doesn't make sense. People don't really know your talk. It's like this war is a moral, it's illegal, it's a strategic disaster or like any other way. It's too light for me for a choice. It's like, oh, I just made the bad choice. It's like, no, no, you'd launched an illegal war that's killing a whole bunch of people and fucking up the Middle East in the world. Yeah, I think the problem with it. I notice it too. He says it comma also says it in her eyes. They all say everyone says it.

And it is a lingering thing from from from post a rock. And it sort of is like, we did not, it was we, it's we preempted. We did this preemptively. We chose to go to war. It was where we didn't have to fight. And it feels like it's a legacy of a different kind of way of talking about it. I had the same thought when I heard it. It was like literally the one thing that to me rang very political in the whole speech. It's an excellent speech. The other thing I appreciated about it.

I just watch the whole thing does not just gets up there and he jumps in. It is made to be,

it is first of all. It's tight. It is made for people with low attention spans. It is. He does not

waste off. There's not a lot of filler. There's an argument. There's a lot of facts. He moves quickly through it. He is into the meat of the speech and to the message of the speech within about a minute or a minute and a half from when he takes the mic maybe a little bit faster. And he has a great indictment to me. Like a broader indictment. That's a that's sort of a bipartisan indictment of the current way politics is done. And I thought it was a great quote, which was, there's a lazy,

cynical experience. Politics unmoored from fixed moral principles and incapable of inspiration or great national achievement. All of this gave rise to a depraved president who exploits this

and Democrats and a style of politics that's depleting and innovating, that's really like.

There's a way that he was in this clip. I should have put it in. But there's a way that he brings

“the crowd in just very, so that he's not just speaking at them because I think the risk of a,”

the risk of just giving big rally speeches is that you're just talking to people. And when he gives his speeches and he talks about something like what Tommy was saying like a story of the week, hello, it's been like, did you see that? Did you see how that happened? I'm interested if after the Senate race and he feels a little looser because he just won reelection. If he's like a little more, you know, informal in the way he's, because I do think like he's, he's really nailed

I think the rally speech better than almost any of the other potential candidates right now. And what I'd love to see from is like, how does he do in any of you? How does he do when he likes

it's down and just talks about stuff because like message wise and rally speech, it's great.

And you don't see, you don't see really good rally speeches anymore. The tone when he was in here was pretty similar. It was pretty serious sober kind of, I know. And I can't tell if that's like I'm running for reelection in Georgia. And like I got to just focus on that and I'm not, I'm not here to opine on, you know, national presidential politics. But I don't know what we'll say. Yeah, we should play it because the interesting to have Pete's event was just a different style. Yeah, so here's Pete.

He's answering a question from an Oklahoma voter about how to talk to people who disagree with you. We all live in Oklahoma. A lot of us do. Lots of people that are on the other side. What's your advice to engage them when we seem to be in such echo chambers on our so-to-vited? So like we said before, I think try to do it offline as much as possible. And if you go into that encounter with an open heart, you do it knowing that you might have some of your own values

“and views challenged. And that's okay. That's why I developed this very unexpected specialty”

you go into places like Fox News and other conservative outlets. How can I blame somebody for

not embracing my point of view if they've literally never even heard it? I always imagined that I'm

talking to people like people I grew up with who I disagree with and also actually like what do I think is really important too? Because we've been made to feel like we're just not to be like snarling at each other. And I think there are so many people who maybe have a different world view than we do, but just like us, they're tired of the sense that politics is just punching you in the face every time you look at your phone or turn on the TV.

Headline, Pete opened to speaking with his on-pipe. Was he on the list? Did he get the question? I don't remember, I don't know. Everyone did, I think. I mean, I think it's, he's good. Like, I think by the time we get to 2028, my hope is that people want the opposite of Trump. And that they will be looking, betting on like a more unifying tone and message. I think Pete is betting on that. He's trying to argue that I'm the guy who can best reach across the aisle and convince

people. I think that the reality of what he's good as a little more nuanced, like he is really smart and can debate anyone and can beat anyone and debate, which is why lips like us are like, yeah, you gave it to Joe Kernan on CNBC, fuck that guy or like he goes on Fox News and he's great or the all-in podcast, he was really good with them. You can fight back with anyone. That is a little bit of a different skill than being able to reach every community and like, you know,

like connect with people. I'm not saying he can't do that. It's just, it's a different thing than they're kind of trying to sell by going to Tulsa for a town hall, if that makes sense. It makes, it's like intellectually he knows and can articulate why it's so important to connect with people who are different and how he and what he just said there and like it helps to persuade you. It's like that. But there's like another step when you're running to be the president,

which is you actually have to do that connecting yourself. And I do think that's different. And a lot of it is like he does, he does deliver maybe the smartest analysis of politics

“and message and then in most Democrats I've seen. And then but then is that enough or do you need to”

actually shell and just tell and I look, I think this is but like I thought that the clip you reference with Joe Kurnan, like that's the one that got me even more excited. Even though this is more my style of message, but like what him going back and forth with Kurnan and he wasn't a dick, Keith, like right, he beat him in that debate, but he wasn't like attacking him. That is red meat for my silo and I love it. So Pete opened this up with a 9 or 10 minute speech just on Mike,

which was great and he's do it with a shot that. Hey both and everyone's doing from below. The same thing for for us, if it's like from the below kind of leader shot. Yeah, that's how it looks like. Also, also it's like he's getting bigger. No, they're tailoring the shit out of those shirts. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yeah, we got listen. He's not listening. He's not listening. What's he doing? What's happening with leg day? All right. That's what I want to know. Where's

our what's happening with the glutes? Yeah, how are the glutes? No, people are posting picks of the fucking awesome glutes now. Oh no. Yeah, no, he's not like, you know, everyone's for you feed us different. Yeah, that's right. That's what's coming to my silo. But no, I, so it's with Pete and

Well, they're both, they're both like I was thinking about this sort of what are the lessons from what happened to Warbon and people writing what they looked at the message lessons from and then there's a pro pro democracy anti-corruption here's how corruption at the top has heard you message that was galvanizing and unifying and both of them are doing a version of that message.

“I think right now because Osof is in the middle of a reelection, he's trying to show not tell.”

He's trying to make the biggest argument he can to get to the most people. And that'll be a proof point later. Pete can be more intellectual. He's not running for anything. So he can say, he says this a lot when he's up there, which is, hey, you're not alone. A lot of people feel the way you do no matter what you're seeing on television trying to make that same argument around a lot of the same issues. I was thinking about Pete because some people asked me all the time,

I'm sure they asked you, like, what do you think about Pete Pete? So good on Fox. And I don't really have the answer to it, but to me, it's the difference between Pete's selling,

voting for Democrats, democracy, whatever. He's an incredible salesman for it. Goes to these

hostile places and he sells the fuck out of it. And the question is, why is it with Pete sometimes? You may be agree with what he's saying, but you don't come away thinking, that's my salesman. You know, you're like, what a pitch. I agree, right? But it doesn't, in politics, you can't just make an argument for the car. You're making argument for you as the person selling the car.

“And there is a gap there with him that I think this is the kind of event he's trying to kind of”

feel out. I don't think he's trying to just prove it. I think he's literally out there kind of getting reps. I think where he gets where he gets shit from the left in particular is people question whether the bio and the lived experience kind of matches up with the reality. Like when I said Petty Peggy Flanagan in here the other day, Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota running for the Democratic nomination in Minnesota for the Senate seat, she was talking about growing up

and living on Medicaid and living on SNAP and how that informs all her choices and the people she fights for. And when someone talks to you like that from that lived experience, it's impossible not to be moved by it and to connect and to believe it. And I think like the criticism Pete sometimes gets is like, well, you know, you were in the military and you worked in McKinsey and you did all the things that kind of like check the box on the way to being an elected official. But does

that mean you were like really connected with the people you represent? I'm not like, I'm not questioning him or trying to be a dick about it, but I think that is the hit. And I agree, but I also think that is a new symbol deal with that as well. Yes, but for both of them, that is an intellectual logical framework for trying to understand of feeling, right? Because Trump is worse than all of them, right? But people that think that he can connect. And there's a way in which he has an ability

to overcome that. And so I think when people go to what people look for facts and figures to try to sort of store it, explain it. But then there is something that like, what is it that prevents

Pete from connecting to big parts of the Democratic base, which we talked about a million times,

like, what is that gap? I don't think it's just resume. I think it's something else that you just trying to figure out. Yeah. Finally, two clips from Kamala Harris, one from the Detroit event where she was talking about the war, and one, one of the places she posted that was actually from her trip to North Carolina last week. He entered a war, got pulled into it by BB Netanyahu. Let's be clear about that. Entered a war that the American people do not want, putting at risk American

service members. Since the start of Trump's war of choice, it's 15 more dollars every time you fill up your tank of gas. The price of diesel has now gone up 80% since the start of the war. And you best believe that's going to carry over to how much you're paying for all the goods that are being transported. Who let her do that? I would love to just know how that gas station video came together because it's like my friend, you live in California, the prices are

much higher here. If you want some like sticker shock in the backdrop, but it's like it's like they got out of the car in the way to the airport and we're like, what's the same route as the

“Chicago event. So I think it's at the same day. I don't think it would be because I remember wondering”

what the hell that was a couple days before. No, I agree. I don't know. Anyway, I wanted to put both in because I do think that she is at her best when she is doing the prosecution of the

administration that she was in the first half of the clip. The gas station, she's not the only

one who's done this, but it is such a talk about like signaling that you are a throwback from a different era of the Chuck Schumer event. Yeah, even Chuck Schumer would give a little, you know, like shit, she literally driving in North Carolina, gets out of the car. There's a gas station, she's like, all right, vertical video, here I am, and I'm just going to be like the cost of this war is blah blah blah. It's just so like it's very Senate. You can say you can see a whole bunch of

Democratic senators who maybe not run for president, probably do that. We all know gas ministers are really high. Like when Chuck Schumer would do the gas station press conference is because it was the 90s and 2000s. He was trying to signal to people that he would want to be his voters, parties with the insurance that he cares about. The things he cares about, to try to do a hit,

issues. He would introduce some kind of like a message bill that would address gouging or whatever it was. And it was just a message hit to stay in front of his voters to show that he's fighting before they come up with a sense of not running for anything and if she isn't won't be for some time, she's happens to be in North Carolina. We all know gas prices are high because they're on the

“fucking science when you go to the gas station. That's the beauty of the issue, honestly. So look,”

who doesn't know that? We all know that. Yeah, it's just sort of seems random. You know what I mean? And I think that's sort of what I'm looking for from political leaders, all of them right now is I want you to be leading on things in a full-threaded way early. You know what I mean? Early on, let's take on the argument against the Iran war, not once the prices are way up. Like it's okay to do it then, but I don't know, I just sort of felt like you've been here,

you know, you could have been out there. You could have been news of enter. It's in big political issues here. Yeah, it's just the choices of when to speak out and on what just confuses me a little bit as a strategic matter. I think is what I'm reacting to. Yeah, the challenge for her is so she's the last nominee. She is leading in the polls right now for if you look at polls of national Democrats. She's especially leading with black voters. So she's going to get a look

right and she's going to have if she decides to run. She's she's going to be like a real formidable candidate, but that's not going to last long if she doesn't back that up with, okay,

here's why I'm running. Here's what I have to say. Here's what I have learned. And here's my

thoughts about not just where we are, but where we have to go and in a way that is personal to her and that no one else can copy. Yeah, you know, I mean, they all have to do that, but I do think even though she was only nominee for 100 days. She's already been there, so like the burden is even higher for her. The bar is even higher for her to like come up with something a little new and different. Angie was vice president in the administration for four years. I always think that's like

more important to the challenge that she has. But I saw her, I've seen her do the like, she's tried to do the like, well, you know, we need some, I've had experience. I've sat in these rooms. I've had these jobs and I do not think the experience argument is going to carry any Democrat very far in 2020. Yeah, well, it's also that that was, we already know that argument,

part of it was part of the argument she made when she was running the first time. I watched her

the full event that in which she spoke. And I got that, you know, she spoke out about the war in the way that that you clipped. But then like the, when asked about like what a Democrats have

“to do differently. You end up with like I think something I agree with. We can't just be nostalgic”

for the past. We have to have a different vision. But she does what I think a lot of Democrats have become accustomed to doing, which is a Democrats need to have a vision. Democrats need a vision for what we're going to do about affordable healthcare. We need a vision for affordable housing. It's like, I know I completely agree. I do think that's exactly what we need. Yeah, it's a lot of translating pundits beat that we all do into rhetoric for an audience, right?

Yeah. Like, it's not enough to be against something. We have to be for something. We can't just go back to how things were that wasn't good enough for people. We got to figure out a new form. Yeah, yeah, it's like this is what people, this is what people are saying in the focus groups are now. I'm going to say it. And again, this is a problem a lot of them have. Yeah, you know, anyway, so we'll do that with a couple. We'll do that with different candidates as they pop up,

you know, I know there was some other ones out there. I only saw a little bit of Cory Booker speech. I didn't see much of it. I didn't really see Andy Bashir's, but, you know, they'll be out there more. We'll get time. We'll take, we'll, yeah, we'll look at a lot of them. When we come back, Tommy speaks to a loud and goldenberg of Jay Street about how pro Israel progressives are trying to make their case.

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How do you deal with shopping-final, with shopping-final? You can help in a real help. Shout-to-dine test-in-a-hole to Funa Island Euro Pomona. Of shopping-final.de/recorder. My guest today is Senior Vice President and Chief Policy Officer at Jay Street. Elon Goldenberg, welcome to positive America. Thanks for having me. Great to see you. So over the last couple of years, probably longer, there has been an intense debate

about the Warren Gaza, the U.S.-Israel relationship, especially U.S. military support to Israel, and the line between anti-Zionism, anti-Semitism. Now, thanks to President Trump, you can lump in. The role Israel may or may not have played in the latest war with Iran and Lebanon on to that debate. So most recently, in the Democratic Party, this debate manifested as a fight over whether Democrats should go on a twitch streamer show, a guy named Sean Piker,

there's this think tank called the third way. They said that his son should essentially be

banished from the party. This was in a Wall Street Journal episode. So John Favreau talked through a lot of this with his son. For an episode that came out about a week ago, folks should check that out if they want more. But you wanted to provide a different perspective on how you believe one can still be a supporter of Israel and a liberal Zionist and a Democrat all at once. So we want to talk through that and maybe I can poke and prod your arguments here we go. So let's just start with

where you disagreed with his son on his definition of Zionism and kind of we'll go from there. Sure. So the problem with I think Hassan's argument on that and thanks for having me Tommy was you know, he talked about Israel and Zionism as essentially an ethno state with superior, you know, essentially looking at what you call a supremacy ideology. And if you actually look at the founding documents of the state of Israel, for example, and you look at the history of Zionism, you know,

Israel is intended to be a Jewish democratic state. It was also to be in its declaration of independence

“described as a state with equal rights for all of its citizens. That's what the vision of the state was.”

Now, that's been incredibly imperfect and huge efforts still need to be made to move than the right direction. That's one of the reasons J Street exists, right? I mean, we exist because the view before us was, you know, you just kind of support Israel and everything Israel is the perfect democracy in the Middle East, the only American democracy in the Middle East, and the only democracy in the Middle East really. And you know, our argument was, no,

there's all kinds of problems that need to be worked out and we need to be honest and critical

with the friend of ours in Israel. But the answer isn't to tilt all the way in the other direction and to say, well, you know, Hamas and Israel are Hamas is a lot better than he is really government, and I'd much rather have Hamas than I would be his really government and treating it as uniquely evil because look, BB Netanyahu is a fascist, potentially authoritarian. Donald Trump

“is also fascist and authoritarian, right? Do I call America fascists state an authoritarian state?”

No, I don't. I recognize that there's huge problems here and I operate from within that very kind of basic understanding. So this I think was kind of my problem with Hassan, right, which was the argument was, this state is uniquely evil. This state was founded purely based on ethnic cleansing. I mean, we have terrible ethnic cleansing and the founding of the history of the United States and it's so many different countries around the world and so I think we just need to

pull back and have a longer conversation about what is wrong and is right and within the context of the state of Israel and how to move it to a better place. So look, I don't want to, I'm not going to try to speak for Hassan or anybody else frankly, but let me just offer what I think kind of the push back to your argument would be, which is not that I think anyone was saying Israel was uniquely evil. It was just sort of whether or not there's a supremacy ideology in the sort of founding

“documents I think what you would say is Israel was founded after the mass displacement of I think”

700,000 Palestinians since 1967 Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza and there has been groups of people living under permanent occupation and their reality today is that it seems like Israel has chosen to be a Jewish state and not a democratic state and so I guess like I can't,

on this stuff I would never pretend to be, but I think people would just say look at the reality

on the ground is that it's this much darker version of whatever that intention was of permanent occupation and then some would argue apartheid or at least very clear instances where there are different rules for Jews and Palestinians that we can unpack that as well. What would you say to that? Sure let's say I don't disagree with that right and but the answer is not Hamas right I mean this pull back a little bit you know I also worked you know on the presidential campaign in 2024

“I spent a lot of time talking to American Jews, I spent a lot of time talking to voters and I think”

most voters are not in these two extreme positions right I mean I think at the end of the day you know you have those who are from the beginning inside a democratic party have said here's the APAC position we're going to support Israel no matter what and then there's where Hassan is which is to argue that Israel is this kind of uniquely evil or deeply deeply problematic

state where the reality is I think you find most at least American voters I would argue when you

can look at polling that shows this that can say hey you know what I really want is for all Jews in Israel and all Palestinians to have freedom, security, equality, a state of their own that's what we're arguing for a J Street I can be horrified by the acts of October 7th by Hamas and I can be horrified by the horrific actions that these really government has perpetrated in Gaza against Palestinian civilians you know I can really hate BB nets on you and I can have some sympathy

for the Israeli people at the same time I can recognize that anti-Semitism is a real problem and I can also recognize that criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism and that even very sharp criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism is not anti-Semitism so this is where you know a guy like Hassan Piker I don't necessarily think he's anti-Semitic I just disagree with his views and I think this is the kind of nuanced hard conversation that I think we need to have in the democratic

party and in the sort democratic coalition because I also think that's where most democratic voters are that's where I would say most normie voters democratic voters are certainly American

“Jews that I talked to and that's what J Street was was founded to represent was that this is”

where most American Jews are they're not where APAC is but it's also I think just not where even if we have some folks on the base who are going further left I think that there's just a huge constituency for this very common sense of you that I'm expressing yeah look my view on on Hamas is that what they did in October 7th is evil and unjustifiable and fucked them and that they're bad for the Palestinian people and for the Jewish people and that's fine I

think what Hassan was making kind of an inflammatory point when you look at the death toll in terms of the number of people that Hamas killed in October 7th versus the idea but I think you get in trouble when you're when you're doing comparisons I'm also been someone who's with not a fan of BB-9

I was since 2009 when I first was in the same room with the guy I think you're getting at this

“middle ground position I want to push you on that a bit because I think every elected official”

in the United States basically pays lip service to the idea of a two-state solution and I think for decades the US government made a very sincere effort to facilitate talks that would lead to the creation of a Palestinian state but for basically his entire career Netanyahu has worked to block the creation of a Palestinian state and these days he brags about it you know he says like throw my depth statesmanship we've printed this from happening he calls it a terrorist state

and in reality I think the peace process has been dead for a long time and then since October 7th both Israelis and Palestinians have lost faith that it will ever happen I think like one fifth of Israelis and polls think there's any hope for Palestinian state and that number is kind of propped up by Arab Israelis so you know meanwhile the situation on the ground it's the West Bank gets further annexed every week Gaza now even further occupied by Israel so I think the critics

would say this liberal Zionist vision of a support for Israel and a two-state solution is kind of delusional in a way of just avoiding the obvious reality that Israel long ago chose to be a Jewish state and not a democracy so full democracy for all people who live there so what's your response to that that argument so look again I don't disagree the situation is grim and also I'll say I worked on some of those negotiations that John Kerry led in 2014 I was part of that process you know

that during president you know under president Obama and yeah some of the assumptions in those in that old way of doing things were deeply problematic for example the idea that we couldn't touch security assistance for Israel and we need to give them a blank check because if we start to

if you're not behaving in a way that is consistent with our policy and our interests and our laws

“we're just not going to give you these weapons and not sell you these weapons which is really”

what my position is now and where Jay Street is and has been for a long time when we're advocating last week you know for 40 senators to vote against these kinds of these kinds of weapons so I'm not arguing for that the liberal Zionist old position of let Israel do whatever wants and let's just work this out right we can use leverage we do have leverage and at the same time

I also don't think the answer is well we should support Hamas or we should be no one say we

know here let's just let's like I feel like it's a straw man we're leaning on here to make a silly okay fuck him off everyone agrees fuck him off okay well let's just say this I actually think what you do have a problem is you have extremist some both sides you have Netanyahu and you have Hamas right and let's not forget in the 90s when we actually almost did get to a piece deal it was Hamas bus bombings in that then brought Netanyahu to power these two guys these two sides are two sides of the same

coin they're thriving off building off each other you know and similarly in the 2000s right like Netanyahu actually has millions of dollars in cash from Qatar landing in Ben Gorion Airport and being pushed into Gaza you know to pay off Hamas and empower Hamas and keep it quiet

while he's purposefully weakening alternative moderates on a Palestinian side so the point is

what what Jay Street advocates for and what we do when we talk to Israelis and Palestinians on

“the ground is there is a I think still a strong minority who wants to work towards that alternative”

vision both on Israeli and the Palestinian side whether we don't call it a two-state solution we actually call it we start calling it a 23-state solution because we don't think it's just going to be a deal that gets a new Palestinian state and Israel is being living side by side we think it needs to be part of a regional integration that actually has Israel at peace with all of its neighbors which creates a lot of incentives for these Israelis and part of that is a new Palestinian state now when you do

polling like that and you present Israelis with the president of the United States where to come to Israel and say here's a plan and all the wars this was done during during the war in Gaza we're going to end the war in Gaza we're going to get the hostages out we're going to pursue a plan

that ultimately ends with Israel at peace with all of its neighbors and as part of that you can

have a Palestinian state like that kind of proposal still get 60% in Israel just that a lot of hurdles to set up before the Palestinians are like I just want to like live in peace and with self-determination suddenly like Israel is to make peace with every single neighbor before they can have that opportunity no it's actually not that complicated you just do the both processes at the same time and at the end of the day that's really about peace with Saudi Arabia and everybody else goes along it's not been pretty complicated

it is complicated but so is but so is a Palestinian state on its own you're trying to create and by the way I should say the problem like you said there's a lot of non-believers in a Palestinian side too polling and the Palestinian public is also pretty terrible right now right on both sides but at the same time on the Palestinian side again if you actually offer them a pathway those numbers changed dramatically if you just say what makes the most sense now I mean the overwhelming

majority is still for armed resistance but there's still 40% who are pushing for this two-state solution and the other thing I'll say about this is you know what this goes back to my day is again working at the state department on these when you present both sides of the public with here's a deal would you take it and you present it to the Israeli public you know and you do polling you get to about 40% and you presented the Palestinians and like here's a deal would you take it

40% then you say here's a deal and the other side is already agreed to it the numbers jump to like 65% 70% point is I still think there is a desire on both parts both sides to get there

“and I think what you have to start doing slowly and it's going to take time is get away from this”

dynamic where it's Hamas on the one side representing the Palestinians and bebenets and yaw on the other side representing the Israelis and they're playing off each other and they're strengthening each other and they're weakening all of the alternatives you're going to have elections in Israel later this year that's a real opportunity we just saw what happened in Hungary and there is an opportunity that those elections aren't going to necessarily bring you the most left-leaning government you

could ever imagine Israel the alternative to Netanyahu is probably kind of a center to center right government but it's one where at least you have people you can work with. Well let's talk about the Netanyahu piece of this because like again I greatly dislike Israeli Prime Minister bebenet nyahu I have for a very long time I think he's corrupt I think he's racist I think he's bad for Israel

might it's like a quick fix and we'll fix everything and I just like it seems very unlikely to me as you mentioned like the country has lurched to the right you've got like violent extremists like literal terrorist sympathizers like this guy it's a Marben Gavier who are now in government and by the way his support for his party in polls is going up and up not down even the moderate candidates though they're not that liberal on the Palestinian issue like the head of the moderate

uh yashar party just visited a north uh a west bank settlement and that was like tied to some really horrible abuses yeah your lapid seemed to back my cuckabees bizarre claim that Israel is like a right to take over the whole Middle East because of biblical claims so like again it would be great to see that nyahu gone and like preferably in a prison somewhere but isn't there a lot of evidence that for the Palestinians and for the Palestinian issue the even more moderate parties are not

“going to be all that much better I think what you will see is first of all you're going to stop”

digging right so going back to Ben Gavier for example yeah his numbers have gone up but also smote which is numbers have gone down these two parties together his numbers in terms of

real extremists yeah exactly two extremists currently in the government basically stays the same

but exactly guys like smote rich and ben Gavier aren't in this new government right and smote rich in ben Gavier these extremists play this unique role of essentially being king makers which gives them huge amounts of leverage in Israeli decision making and pushes the government to more terrible on terrible places uh whereas if you had instead guys like yet you're lapid or you're golon who are not ideal with these are kind of the Israeli center left playing the king maker role

that's a meaningful difference you're golon being a you know a retired general who ran down to you know southern Israel in October 7th and saved a lot of people just basically got up and went down there but also is very much arguing for a two state solution and is arguing for some of these things and what you could get then at least as a government that at least starts cracking down on things like what we are seeing in the West Bank and extremists seller violence in the West Bank we're a

J Street pushing for legislation actually on Capitol Hill called the West Bank Violence Prevention Act that at this point has you know overwhelming supportive Senate Democrats more than 40 and a 130 or so members of the house which would start to impose sanctions on these guys on these extremists settlers but could actually make a real profound difference because all these things the violence and the settlements and all of it is tied together all these institutions are tied together you can actually

“start to apply a real pressure and change behavior and so I think there's opportunities to we're not”

solving this problem any time soon but if you have a government that is at least more restrained and also cares about the US's real relationship because it's very clear now and this is also another thing that started happening in Israel in the last couple weeks in particular you've seen it with some of the polling that's come out about Israel and you've seen it with you know what's happened

with with this vote last week in the Senate there finally is a questioning that's coming to the

center of Israeli politics of like what's happened here how is our relationship with the US collapsing in such an extreme way and as that happens I think there's you're going to have a government that is more centrist not great but it's going to care more about that and that gives us more leverage and also creates a situation where they start to potentially at different moments

“say well yeah maybe parts of the party of our government would like to do this thing in the”

West Bank or in Gaza but we're actually worried about the Americans and their opinion and we care about for example what Democrats also think of us and so we're going to restrain ourselves more and you start to move not we're not solving this poll many immediately but at least start to change a trajectory of this whole conflict yeah look I hope that's true I don't know I guess I just

worry that look when I see this effort it's a very misguided effort by the third way to like

just to try to declare that a sonpiker or the twitch streamer sort of like out of bounds it seems to me to be part of a broader effort to silence critics of Israel in the U.S. and chill the bait about policy that frankly happens all the time in Israeli media for example right like if if an American politician was like Israel is in a apartheid state that is that that's you know language that is treated as outrageous or potentially antisemitic all the time

but as you know I mean in in 2021 the most prominent Israeli human rights organization in Israel

back on this idea that you know maybe the contest it is growing increasingly concerned about like sort of US views of dissent of laws and decisions like that because pretty recently Israeli lawmakers passed a lot of expand the death penalty but only for Palestinians which seems like a pretty like a grieges example of the kind of law or policy that Betsolem was talking about when they wrote that paper several years ago so I mean aren't those pretty clear cut examples of kind of apartheid like or you know

you know unequal treatment of individuals based on religion and shouldn't we be having a more honest conversation about that kind of stuff in the United States and not like doing what the third way to do in here yeah I mean we should be having honest conversation about these things you know I will say I'm not saying that the kinesis that's moving further to the to the left I think if you look at the Israeli public and you like a polling we have elections in October you're going to have a

different government this government in Israel is horrific in all the different ways but it's not just this government there's a lot of systemic and deeper things and that's exactly the conversation

I want us to be having and I a hundred percent we were out there as an organization sharply critical

about this but I think we just need to be careful when we have that conversation to not you know and like I not sway too far in the other direction to the point of you know essentially casting Israel as this you know okay there is ethnic cleansing in Israel's history there's probably ethnic cleansing in cases of I'd say 50 or 100 of the countries that exist in the world today including some very recent as well and so what we just have to be careful to do is not turn

“Israel into it we need to normalize our relationship with Israel right that's what I have actually”

that's one of the things we've argued for a long time that means it no more blank check let's treat Israel like a normal country right and and and let's have those hard conversations it also means let's not treat it as this uniquely evil or sinister thing which I think is happening in

some far extreme places so I think I agree with you the whole third-way conversation here of like

turning Hassan Piker into some kind of measuring stick for all this you know I don't think you know I listen to the interview with with John Faber I don't think Hassan Piker is anti-Semitic I just think his views are misinformed and in many ways I just think we need to be careful to not go in that direction because if you want to ultimately in the United States build a political coalition that's actually going to win in 26 and more importantly in 28 I don't think that most people are

are where he is I think most people are kind of in this middle in this position it's not the middle ground of Democrats versus Republicans that argue it's the middle ground of where the Democratic Party is which is just kind of like yeah there's all kinds of horrible stuff happening there and we should do something about that let's instead of just letting them use our weapons but

“also I don't think these people are the devil necessarily right and and so that's that's what I'm”

arguing for look I hear that like I don't think people I don't think Hassan is arguing that like Israel's the devil that is really people are evil in any way I think what what's happening and what I think this sort of political class can sometimes miss because they've been having these conversations for years you know people like your genuine experts in the founding documents of Israel right and maybe sometimes we make a mistake when we kind of try to pull from history

like well I think the the average Americans experience of what's happening in Israel right now especially young people if they started paying attention to politics a couple of years ago

they just see intolerable amounts of killing by Israel first in Gaza now in Lebanon and Iran

and they're doing it with American weapons and then if you're my age you've been kind of watching you know Netanyahu since 2009 sort of doing his best to prevent the Palestinian state from being created come at a Congress to insult Barack Obama and try to blow up the Iran nuclear deal in 2015 and then just wrapping his arms around Donald Trump in the biggest kind of bear hug ever and so it's like it's not that people have deeply held views about the origins of Zionism or because

they're antisemitic they're just like why is this really strong country bombing the shit out of Gaza over and over again and why are we giving them weapons to do why am I paying for that right

“and they're just horrified by it and like it's a visceral reaction that I think you know like”

Jonathan Greenblatt will try to like scold me if I use the wrong words to try to prevent this conversation from happening but it's happening no matter what yeah no I look I can't disagree with a lot of that in terms of the fact that I mean BB Netanyahu is an asshole and I've also been living with him for 15 years right I mean my first government job was working on Iran and the Pentagon in 2009 just literally starting about a month or two after he came into office and he's been

and I think he's he's the one who's done the most damage to this entire nature of the relationship

“but I agree it is bigger the history is longer we can have those honest conversations I mean”

it's one of the reasons now like I don't know if you've paid attention we've taken a fair amount of flag for it Jay Street we've been advocating for years right for this position of you can have both you know a support for Israel and no blank check let's ask all the hard questions so last week we came out with a new position that's flared up a lot of interest which is basically to say there's three pieces to the U.S. Israel security relationship right the first piece is you know

we you know we do operational cooperation and certain things when it's in our interest we should do that whether it's our military is working together whether it's sharing intel which they do help us with everything from ISIS to Iran to all kinds of other challenges when it makes sense

we can do that two basically they get four billion dollars a year from us right and have been for

“years and years and years and Jay Street's position is time for that to end it's basically a financial”

subsidy right yeah and there's no reason that they don't need this financial subsidy for anything more Israel at this point it's a country with a per capita GDP similar to France or the UK or Germany or any of these very wealthy countries they don't need this money they have a 45 billion dollar budget so let's just kind of phase that out relatively quickly and by the way I'm not the only guy saying that Roman manual saying that beeping it's an yell was saying that Lindsey Graham is saying

that AOC is saying that it's one thing everybody agrees on time for that money to go and then the third piece is when it comes to arm sales there's some things it really do make sense like iron dome for example right missile defense system that protects Israeli civilians from attacks there are some people who argue that the iron dome enables you know more builturism by the IDF because they know that they can repeatedly bomb a country like Iran and then just be protected from incoming fires

sort of laying out the other side of that debate for listeners no for sure and my argument on that is if you go back for example and imagine during moments when that might be true but if you really think about it in totality imagine if on October 7th Israel didn't have those systems and hundreds of more in the aftermath when when Hamas and his bala and Iran started launch and the who do you start launching

missiles at Israel if Israel didn't have the capabilities to protect civilians first of all just

on a human life perspective we're talking about somewhere between 500,000 and 700,000 Americans citizens living in Israel that's a real issue but also what do you think the Israeli response would have been if a couple of thousand more people would have been killed you know as a result of these missile landing in their cities I think they would have been more killing of Palestinians and Lebanese for example but you know but even you know so I would argue for iron dome but I also think when it

comes to other weapon systems let's just apply you know the laws that exist on the books already and a plot and hold Israel to the same standard as every other country which means there are certain things they wouldn't get you know especially you know there's a there's a law called the late late he law which reviews unit by unit what is what part of partner countries are doing in the world there's a special process for Israel that is different than in pretty much the most

lenient process that any country in the world gets we don't need that this world doesn't need that that's not good for US interests it's not good for Israel there's you know other laws which look

“at if you're preventing aid from going in American aid from going in you should be cut off from”

certain weapons again we should have done that Biden administration should have done that I was part of the Biden administration it didn't do that I disagreed with that at the time I kind of evolved on that as I will admit I evolved on that as the you know as the war went on you know and I certainly am there now right where it's time to cut off some of these weapons so you can be just discerning a nuanced and all of this is my view I totally heard that like I

I think I'm really glad that Jay Street is part of this conversation and was lobbying senators to cut off certain types of US military I think the votes last week were what for 1,000 pound bombs and like armored bulldozers the absolutely no reason the US needs to be providing those systems to Israel especially given the context right now I think you're right

we should absolutely should not be giving a rich country $4 billion a year for no reason for military

support by the way money is fungible and that money can then be there using that to fund universal healthcare system a lot of people here would love to have and so I'm glad that like this conversation

slap down if you sort of break from the APAC party line or orthodoxy going forward I do think that challenge the democratic party leaders are having is the base of the party young people have moved way further way faster than the democratic elected officials have even if democratic party elected officials have moved really really fast historically speaking on this issue

“yeah no I think that that's true but I also think we need to balance that with the sort of”

independent voter and the non base and majority sort of normie voter right and I think you're right if you look at young people and their view on this you know somebody like me I imagine somebody like you were probably roughly the same age right you know we both grew up with kind of Israel of each hacker being which was not the you know Joe Biden grew up with the Israel of I should start with Joe Biden grew up with the Israel of really the post holocaust scrappy country came

out of you know essentially underdog and every event he would do on this always started with

this story of going to Israel in 1972 and go to meet here so he had what brutal one mentality right yeah like folks like you were I grew up with a liberal Israel that was powerful but was looking to make peace right at least I did and then you look at you know people you look at my kids and you look at just everybody again anybody under the age of 25 or 30 doesn't remember a world without BB Netanyahu and and it's a huge problem but I also think you know there's still the majority

of democratic party that's not necessarily there despite those being the loudest voices right and certainly it's not the majority of you know American voters who who are kind of at this as far left as the base as far as the base has gone on this and so we're gonna have to find

“I think we just might it's a danger of going too far I think you're right I also think politicians”

haven't moved far enough yet but I think the 27 will be a really interesting dynamic I hope that there can be that can be a unifying moment for politicians and democratic party leaders and candidates to be able to essentially express the position of not throwing the U.S. Israel relationship in the garbage and still recognizing that there is potential value there while at the same time saying

the way this has been done in the past means to end and for me the answer is again it goes back

to treat Israel like a normal country treat Israel like a normal ally whether you want to call an ally or not someone say ally some you know others more opposed can just say normal country that means on both sides right that means no more blank check it also means there's some things we'll work with them on because we have an interest in doing so for sure I think that's right

“like I think I think the normie voter the most powerful art have not thought about this for one”

fucking second and the most powerful argument to them is going to be what stop spending money on wars or giving it to other countries and spend it at home and right so like that is really going to be the people are going to have to sketch out thoughtful nuance use a foreign policy because that kind of like nationalist isolationist view is going to be the the siren song politically that is incredibly

powerful that frankly works on me and a lot of instances and is I think something we all just

have to keep in mind as we are seeped in this stuff and have more nuanced views that might not you know kind of get to the average voter on a random day but either way like I want to really appreciate you coming on and talking about this stuff I imagine this will not be the last time we'll be talking about this maybe we'll pop back on to talk about another round of talks tomorrow in Pakistan with the Iranians hopefully they're not as terrible as the last one but we'll find out

I think I told you before we started this I kind of feel like we're just in it'll be fine Trump will make something up and we won't go back to war but we also won't be in a position where we've made any progress in the straight-of-war moves or remain closed that's kind of like my guess wonderful wonderful well could could be worse I guess thank you so much coming on I work in folks find JST work and what we guys are up to sure well you can look us up on JST.org

we also have our our our sub-stack the Jeremy and Jeremy Benami our founder writes myself word on the street but really the website and and signed up for you know we do a lot of different things we do you know we work with candidates we do a lot of lobbying on the hill we are going deep into American Jewish community trying to change a conversation and have this nuance conversation so there's ways to get involved all over the country 20 chapters around the

country who are doing this kind of work to really build at the end of the day a liberal alternative

we're trying to build and really democratic politics with the Jewish community overall excellent well thank

you again that's our show for today thanks to all our golden bird for coming on

“Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday from DC about that if you want to listen to”

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