On the Ground in Michigan with Abdul El-Sayed

- Welcome to Plot's Av America.

I'm John Favreau.

“- And I am Tommy Vittor, hello from Detroit, Michigan.”

How you doing? - Hello. - How's it going there? - What are you doing? I am, I came out to see Michigan Senate candidate

Abdul Alsaid. On the campaign trail, interviewed him last night in Detroit after a town hall event. As you guys know, as the listeners know, this is one of the most hotly-contested Senate races

in the country. The Democrats just had a bruising primary that pitted progressives against the establishment. A pack in Israel versus, you know, with the left position on a bunch of foreign policy issues.

And now Republicans are propping up Mike Rogers, who is, you know,

they conservative, you know, national security official

from a different era of Republican politics. And this is gonna be a night fight between now and election day. So I wanna get out here, get on the ground and see what it looked like.

- Nice. - How was it? How was it?

“What we can get to have a deal with, like,”

how was, what did you see on the ground? - It was a very quick trip in the Tommy's fantasy version of this trip. I went to Detroit last night and then event in Lansing today and then tailgated with Abdul

and before the Michigan football game. - All Saturday, I know, but you'll be surprised to learn that didn't fly with Hannah. The three-year-old and the two-year-old at home. Yeah, a little bit going on.

So it was a quick trip, flew out six a.m. Thursday, landed to Detroit. Then we went to Wayne County Community College where Abdul was holding his town hall meeting. So we interviewed a bunch of voters coming in,

got to hang out with Abdul for a bit off the record before the event. Watched him speak and did he did a Q&A, a gaggle with press, and then he sat down with us for an interview. Before he then did a CNN hit.

So it was a very long day for him. So here's a quick taste of what we heard, what we saw, what the ground was like, what Abdul's events, what the interview was like. Watch this and then John and I are gonna talk about

impressions from the event, the stakes in the election, kind of the issues that are getting fought and what the path looks like going forward for Abdul. - We are at the Wayne County Community College in Detroit, Michigan, we're here to see Abdul Al-Sayad,

he's doing a, it shouldn't be this hard, town hall meeting tour. - The democracy is supposed to be about sharing in a conversation about two things. Who are we, and who do we want to be?

Part of my job is not just to be like,

all right, here's what's popular and poll.

It's not just to do what's popular, it's to make popular what's right. At the end of the day people are good, really.

“I think sometimes we're afraid of our own shadow.”

We assume that all people are gonna like, we shouldn't be talking about it, we're sure we should, what are you afraid of? - Oh wow, what's some of the voters say? - So the voters, let me tell you guys

first about the preview of the Abdul piece of this, just so folks know and I'll talk about the voters. In the interview, Abdul and I talk about the difference between the questions he got from voters in the town hall and then the media, you'll be surprised to learn

that the voters were not asking about Twitch streamers, but the press score was, and Hassan Piker, we talked about what Mike Rogers and Ted Cruz had just said about Abdul in Dallas. - Sure.

- I saw some person screamed shoot him, we'll play those comments for you guys in a bit. I asked him about his reflections on 9/11 'cause we're talking on the 10th and not just kind of like the fear of that day,

but being a Muslim in America in that period after. And then I asked him about his image because you and I know him is like, our really smart doctor buddy and kind of a nerd. And now like there's a lot more bro coming out of that campaign.

So I asked him about how we thought about that. The kind of him kind of getting the Tucker Carlson endorsement, we talked about public health, this is about 20 minutes and then worth your time. Most of the voters we talked to were big Abdul fans.

Not a lot of undecideds were turning out at this event, but two people that really stand up to me. One was a woman who you'll hear from in the episode who actually knew Audie Barkin. That one was a friend of ours.

It's unbelievably brave health care activist. And she talked about getting arrested with Audie and how Abdul's commitment to Medicare for All and Health Care was what inspired her to be a part of the campaign.

And then I talked to this older gentleman he's 82 years old and had worked on RFK, the good ones campaign. Wow, cool, is that? I know that's very cool.

It was awesome. The best campaign ever. And he was like the last month of his wiring campaign. I know, before the new generation of RFKs are kind of the team of version that we got now.

But he talked about Abdul being a breath of fresh air and whatever. So here's some conversations I had with voters

and about Abdul. Can you tell us your name? My name is Jane. I'm Zach Farrell. Eden.

Noris Howard. His team angles. Often Ali. Marvin Crawford. I lean Mac Donald.

How did you know Abdul?

“Abdul was in my Advanced Placement Calculus class.”

So you taught Abdul AP calculus? I did. I really did. And he was the most brilliant student. I mean, I know fence to rest my students.

Come on, nobody's got a calculus. He was brilliant at that. He won the math award. He also won the English Award when he graduated, which was pretty up astounded.

I'd like what he has to say in the manner in which he says it. It's his fresh air, it's fresh air. And we need fresh voices. I'm 82 years old.

My last campaign I worked for was Bobby Kennedy, 1968. I feel like like him, Bernie, the whole progressive movement were putting us in the right direction. Fortunately, what happened with the establishment the last few years, kind of pushed people away

from the Democrats. And now people like Abdul are here to say the Democrats again, and Bernie and all those progressives. Why do you think, well, why do you like Abdul? Is it a message, a policy area?

Policy, money out of politics, Medicare for all. And all the policies he's pushing for. I think the message is clear. His fans are big fans of him.

“But I think the biggest thing is that when people finally”

hear and speak, there's a clarity of message. And I think also, they like that. He's kind of not punking out, so to speak. He's very verbose. He's very gregarious, but at the same time,

he's kind of a bulldog when he wants to be. I love that he's Medicare for all or healthcare for all. And I love that he wants to stop sending money to Israel. That is one of my biggest things that I love about him.

He's one of the first politicians to actually do that.

Personally, it's a healthcare for all. It's his stance against Iran. Money out of politics is probably the biggest thing. Money out of politics is definitely one of the biggest things. And I appreciate the campaign for all Americans,

not just a specific group. I have six grandkids, two great grandkids. I worry about him every single day. The kids are starting to age out of the 26-year-old healthcare. And it's not looking too good for a couple of them.

And we shouldn't be like this. This should not be this hard. Every country in the world has healthcare, where the only ones that go bankrupt, where the only ones that have to have

that ration medications, it's not right. And it's not the way it should be. The young people need something to look forward to and in terms of politics. And some of the people right now in Washington should go home.

They've made a contribution. It's time to go home and let the younger folks, you know, when you were working for Obama, that's how I got connected with you. Amazing. - Yes.

- Yes. - Oh my God.

That's amazing. - That's amazing.

- That's true. - And when you walked there, I thought, oh my God, I know who that is. - It's incredible. - Oh my God, what a small world. - Yes indeed. - Oh my God. - You are saying you know some people

that are very conservative in your life. And you know, the classic Republican message of why are we giving stuff to them when I'm getting left behind kind of works. Do you feel like when you send those people

an Abdul Klip, is he able to break through to they hear him? - I think it takes a lot more nuance than sending them a clip because they are very used to just seeing a propagandized message and being like, oh that's just the Democrats doing their thing.

And I think it's going to take a lot of things like this, seeing people talking and seeing actual conversations being had with people to realize and understand that it is a message for everybody. And it is for people like my dad who is,

doesn't go to college and one of the hardest workers I know have the utmost respect for him. And it is important that he sees that. And I don't know that the, like you're talking about the Love Island clip, that's obviously not going to reach him.

“And I think something like this is important to see him”

actually talking to constituents and realizing

that this is Michigan first America, first kind of movement

as opposed to a specific group of people that the Republican Party has him convinced that they're the enemy, you know? And this is something that you can see. My dad's like more of a moderate Democrat.

And it took a little convincing for him to get behind Abdul. Like his biggest sign was getting money out of politics. So he has a sign out of that broke that broke through. Oh yeah, absolutely.

I'm hopeful.

“I'm hopeful that this, that this is the start of something new”

in this state in Michigan.

Because there has been a dumbing down, a dumbing down of intellect, a dumbing down and it's down, dumbing down and it can't continue. We can't continue this. We can't continue this.

- Agreed. - You can't get much dumber. That's a good news. We're pretty dumb right now. - Yeah, I know it's signaling.

It's spiritually signaling. It's emotionally signaling. It's intellectual signaling. And we've got to get it set. I mean, here we are, the United States of America.

And here we are, and this, this, filled, the, the, the stinch. There's over the whole country. I mean, I mean, I mean, I'm 82. I want to see something refreshing before my last days.

I want to see us evolve, become enlightened.

- You know, I, I, I, I, I, I politically enlightened. And it, it, it, uh, well, I just know.

“- No, I, I, I, listen, I really, really appreciate it.”

So it's great to see you. Thank you so much for talking with us. - Yeah, well, you, you, I, I'm so glad to meet you man. - Listen, thank you very much. It's amazing.

- You appreciate it. - You're so grateful. - Thank you for caring about the turnout. - Oh, God. - You talked to these guys.

- Yes, indeed. - And by the way, if you like seeing us get out of the office, going out on the ground on these reporting trips, please consider becoming a friend of the pod subscriber. You get ad free episodes, you get boat as content,

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(upbeat music) It was great to get out here and it's fun to watch these guys on YouTube and see the events, but I think being there in person just kind of gives you a different sense.

And being there in a period of, you can see the campaign going from primary to general election mode in that step up in size and intensity and kind of watching a duel guy, go from a guy who is a little bit known

in Michigan political circles to totally losing his anonymity. It is just, it is gone now.

because for her, like winning the primary was winning the general, so she's a national figure right away, but a duel is closed and also, you know,

unfortunately for him, it's backed by $70 million

in attack ads that were kind of part of that process. - Yeah, see him deal with that was really interesting. - I've been wondering about that because, you know, like he ran for statewide office before, but that was just a totally different level of like faint

and people know who he is. I watched the preparing for this. I watched the event that you went to and I watched his speech and all the questions too. It's just, I'm sure you will talk about this

and, and, and, and felt this as well, but man, is it different watching an event and watching the speech versus like what you see in here from the internet and the media about the race?

“- Yes, yes, I think, look, we are a duel fans.”

He's been a friend for a long time, both of us have donated his to the campaign. So we are biased, but I came away just being like, okay, this guy is so talented. He's a talented communicator, he's a great speaker,

and he just kind of, he seems like a fighter

which I think is the thing we've all been talking about that voters want for this moment, which I'm the thing that he has done that I think every campaign consultant would dream of is he has landed on a clear succinct message,

which is money out of politics, money in your pockets and Medicare for all to the point where when we are interviewing voters about why they liked a duel, they were repeating it back to us. And he, and that is the dream.

- He starts the event by saying that and then everyone repeats it back to him, like it's a whole, I also think for everyone's like, well, he's got, I mean,

and we've done this analysis too on this show. Like, he's got to talk about this and he's got to link my grudges to Trump and he's got to be talking about economics stuff and not Gaza and Israel the whole time.

And like, he was so on message during that event, including the questions he was getting, it is like, I would encourage anyone who is doubtful about the race and doesn't, isn't sure, like just watch an event,

because he and the comfort that he has and the confidence,

“which I think is so huge in a candidate.”

Like, this is not someone who seems like, I mean, first of all, he's memorized his stomp, but he is, you can tell it's just, it feels conversational, it feels relevant to people, he's not like talking down to folks,

he's not like doing like, here's my line on this and I actually think he even comes off better in person or at these events than he does, sometimes like on social media or the interviews. Oh, definitely the goofiness in the sense of humor comes here.

So you've written a million stumps beaches,

but politicians don't need your stumps speech to be a thing you read verbatim every day. In fact, that's bad. What Abdul did very well last night was kind of work, topical things into his remarks

and make it new and newsy, but in the frame. So we talked about the $5,000 dividend proposal from Dallas and he's like, hey, you're paying, on average, $5,600 for Trump's vanity trade where with Canada, he's having the piss and contest

with the Prime Minister of Canada, you pay for it and then he comes back and tries to bribe you for a vote for a little less back.

“And then he talked about how this was a third time,”

you've been offered a check. He said, remember the Doge dividend? Elon Musk got the Doge dividend. The rest of us are still paying for it. And then he mentioned the lettuce and the Listeria outbreak

and he said, you're paying for it on the toilet too. So it was like, this is funny thing. He talked about the Michigan Western Michigan game. The tour is called the, it shouldn't be this hard tour. Yeah, he talked about this football game

that ended where everyone thinks that Western Michigan got robbed. And he was like, man, you can imagine Western people the Western being like, it should be this hard. That's funny, he funny.

The Doge's for funny. He also looked, again, I asked some of that at the interview, but he's growing out hard on the stump there. He threatened, challenged Mike Rogers to a no-pads Oklahoma drill.

So. But even, I noticed that. And even when he did that, it didn't come off as like, hey, dude, it was, it was jokey. Yeah, it was jokey.

You know, it turned it down a little bit. Yeah, you can tell, even the, I'd heard him do that cheerleader riff. Like Mike Rogers is a cheerleader. But the way he did it was like, tongue and cheek,

and he, you know, it didn't sound like a politician's riff where you're like, and now applaud. Right, like I just thought it was comfortable. Yeah, it's so a dual's opponent, like Rogers. He was not a Michigan this week.

He was in Dallas, Texas for the Trumpapulusa, where he was given a full six minutes and 48 seconds to speak the guy left the state, a swing state, in the middle of the campaign to go do that. Rogers delivered kind of a classic paint by numbers, bio speech,

about his story and himself. John this line made me laugh really hard. He was kind of trying to tell, like, up from your own bootstraps, product of the American dream story, which is great.

But the way he phrased it was that the American dream quote took me, the son of a Michigan shop teacher, all the way to be the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. Dude, that's the American dream.

I was like by myself, in my house, and he did that line.

“And I laughed out loud to myself as if that exact line.”

I was like, where's he going to take this? And then he's like, to the House Intelligence Committee. So the factory floor to the chairman of the deep state. That is the American dream. What are you talking about?

That speech was, I mean, we can talk about the attacks on a dual in that speech. But the fact that he has nothing to say, you get six minutes in front of generous to say a natural audience, because I'm sure not many people were watching at all.

Only 2.5 million watched Trump the first night total.

And that's like the fox. But that's the normal fox audience at night. So Trump didn't even break that. But so I'm sure no one was watching. But you have six minutes in a big speech like this.

Nothing about costs and Michigan. Diarrhea. The economy. What to do for people? It was literally like he did the 9/11 commemoration.

And all he talked about was terrorism. And it was, it was as if he was giving the speech in the 2002 Senate race. John, I literally wrote down, I feel like I'm watching the RNC in New York in 2004.

And it was, it was Bush era post-election measure. Let's roll a clip of Rogers folks can see what we're talking about. I know what they're capable of. And I know what happens when America

becomes afraid to call evil by its name.

September 11th isn't something that we deserved. No matter what Abdul's buddy is saying. Abdul's is funding his campaign with money from terrorist groups like the Muslim brotherhood. He wants to represent Palestine.

I want to represent Michigan. Maybe that'll work. I mean, it tells you where the campaign's going, which is all fear and our mongering islamophobious stuff. Yeah, but like the whole the way he talked about 9/11.

And it's like, hey, my Rogers. And then what happened? Do you have any, do you have an apology to all the men and women

“in this country who lost loved ones in the Iraq War?”

And in Afghanistan, and in all the years that we have fucked up the Middle East in the world by just doing the wrong way after 9/11. Yeah, does worse go well, Mike? Yeah, how did that go?

Oh, like have you been, how was your time on the Intel committee? How was your time, like, did you like the Patriot Act? Was that, did that go well, too? Do you think people are having a big impact? Yeah, it seems like Republicans are a little worried about these days.

Yeah, Ted Cruz did something similar. So Ted Cruz also hopped in his time machine. Went back to 2002, did some post-9/11 fear mongering. John, let me tell me if you can figure out what the two Democrats named checked by Cruz in this clip

have in common. Let's watch. When Mandami says he wants to seize the means of production, he means it. When I do, I'll say it says he has a quote obligation

to comply with Sharia Law. He means it. Very subtle to Lake Kuzoran and Abdul with nothing in common. Also John Ted Cruz on the University of Charlie Kirk's assassination says nothing in response to two calls to shoot Democrats.

“I feel like that tells you everything you need to know about.”

His sincerity is a human being and also the Republican Party's commitment to rooting up political violence.

Yeah, you could tell that the first one--

I don't think we're maybe even three in a longer clip. But you can tell that maybe he doesn't hear the first couple. He definitely hears the last one. And because there's almost a pause and he just decides, like, well, I can't call that.

I couldn't say don't say that because that would be showing some kind of monochrome of courage. Yeah, decency. Right. Yeah, I mean, look, the Mammadani stuff is crazy.

And just blatantly Islamophobia and racism because Mammadani's not running in the midterms. He's not on the ticket anywhere. So running him up over and over again is just a way to write up the base.

It's just Fox News Brain. I mean, we have Fox on in our office. They've been talking about some 9/11 families, not wanting Zoran to go to Ground Zero, to go to the commemoration event.

Obviously, those families can feel, however, they want. But they're also putting on just hardcore, right wing, Republican politicians who are just being Islamophobic, discreetes. And by the way, Zoran Mammadani is a Shia Muslim.

So Bin Laden would call him an infidel and want to kill him to just for the record. But those facts don't make sure that distinction matters. They're going to listen to me on this one. OK, let's just talk big picture on the race.

So I'd like, we're saying, this is what the rest of the race is going to be. It's just going to be naked, Islamophobia. Republicans think this stuff is effective. I don't know.

Abdul is trying to counter it by showing other sides with personality. We've talked about the goofy, blues, clues, video. I asked him about that. He's talking about sports.

A lot of it is guilt by association stuff with his son, piker. But really, those guilt by association attacks

It's basically they're saying, like, two Muslims are too much.

If JD van's really cared about his son, piker's views on Israel, then he would also denounce and cut ties with Tucker Carlson. But he doesn't give a shit. And this is just politics.

“I think ultimately where Abdul is on this”

is he thinks we need to be able to agree to disagreeably on foreign policy, including Israel. He disagreed with some of the stuff Hassan said in the past. But he's not going to cut ties with the guy like who is a friend for that.

He's going to tell him, I disagree. And I think what's hard here is a lot of Democrats are following Republicans down this path of only focusing on guilt by association. And there's just no other conversation about this race.

Because obviously Hassan said some stupid shit. He apologized, but Abdul didn't say it. And meanwhile, we have this really dynamic, exciting candidate that is inspiring people. And yet the conversation online and in the media

just gets wrapped around the axle on this one issue over and over and over again. And you can tell it's just driving up dual crazy. He's like, I want to talk about health care and grocery prices and all the shit that I hear about on the campaign

trail, not this stuff. Yeah, I mean, a few things about this stipulated,

“I think if Abdul had to do it over again,”

would not have had Hassan come to Michigan and campaign. Like I think that there is a difference between-- and I still believe we've had Hassan packer on the show. And even politicians who go on Hassan stream, like I will still defend that, right?

Because you're reaching an audience, whatever else. Like the campaigning made it tougher, right? Now, that said, the guilt by association that they're trying to do is guilt by association with someone who has apologized for comments,

he said, were a joke about 9/11. And someone who, you know, they're like, oh, it's a dual's best friend and his running mate.

Somebody that is like, no, Abdul's had a million people

campaign with them, and Hassan was there twice, right? And that's it. I also don't think people normal people give a shit about this. I really don't.

I do think that, I mean, I'm curious what Abdul's told you or like what their polling shows, whatever. Like I think his, the extent he has a challenge and he does have a challenge, it is do people think that he is too extreme or too progressive or too liberal.

Abdul, right?

“Like do they think his positions are too far to the left?”

Do they think he is too, is out of the mainstream? And my view on this is like watching that event that he did, if he could, if he could meet everyone in Michigan, everyone who sees him campaign, everyone who gets contact by the campaign,

contact by Abdul, like has that kind of experience. I think he'll be fine. And I think people are going to come away with the view that like, yeah, he's progressive in all the right ways. And like his slogans, right?

Money in your pocket, money out of politics, Medicare for all, very popular. And so my concern, I think his probably the campaigns are in their challenge is, can, you're not to be able to reach everyone in a big state like Michigan.

And for the people who are just tuning into the end and are going to vote, which image of Abdul are they going to get? Are they going to get, are they going to see him as this extreme out of step guy with a funny name?

Or are they going to see the Abdul that we all see? And so I imagine that's probably their big challenge. Yeah, I mean, just not the Israel stuff. Like I think the vast majority of voters don't vote based on foreign policy, it's economic issues.

It's rage at the establishment. Now that doesn't mean there aren't real concerns within parts of the Michigan Jewish community about Hassan Piker, past comments, et cetera. So I call Andy Levin to talk about all this.

He's a former member of Congress. He's from the 11th family, which is like a deep political history in Michigan. He's also Jewish. He was a president of his synagogue.

He tangled with APAC back in the day because he was too progressive. His view was that this is a tempest in the teapot. There was this, in the gaggle, Abdul did. He was asked about a letter from 400 Jewish Democrats

who now support Mike Rogers. But Andy Levin was saying that he thinks a lot of them are actually Republicans or supported Mitt Romney in 2012 because Obama was too dangerous on Israel or whatever. So we'll see.

You piece it to me, ultimately, 1.3% of Michiganers are Jewish.

If there's high turnout, that's like 1.8% of the electorate. But he also thinks that when you combine Muslim and Arab American voters, that's like 3 to 4% of the electorate. So politically speaking, it could offset. But also, Andy's like, again, my slack.

I have tons of Jewish voters who are just really pumped about the guy. So maybe Abdul doesn't get 70% but he gets 40 or 50 or 60 something like that. (upbeat music)

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“- I think the bigger problem is what you're talking about”

which is this effort to make a dual radical. When you talk to his team, the traditional DSCC strategy would be a dual hangs back, make Rogers the main character. His association with Donald Trump

is way more harmful than a dual's association with anyone else and just roll with that. But the challenge they are having is a dual is too interesting and too different of a story politically for that to work. Because the media doesn't give a fuck about my graduates

because he just hides in Florida all the time. So they're like trying to get the establishment on board while letting a dual be himself and not play into this lie that he's a super radical because he's not. But in some markets right now,

they're getting out spent four to one with all the outside money and they're worried about

Elon Musk cutting a hundred million dollar check

at any time and dumping even more ads on their head. So they're just like, that's the challenge right now. - Yeah, this is why I, and I think he's an excellent reporter and a group of them a lot, but when Jonathan Martin has been saying recently, like, oh, why is a dual

making this about himself? Why does the Democrats just make him like you said, hang back and make it all about Rogers? And the call's gonna come in from the DSCC to like knock it off and just do last and all like that stuff.

It's like, I get that if a dual is Troy Jackson or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, yeah, right. And maybe even not to her Jackson because people don't know who to her Jackson is

“because he just jumped in, but someone like that, right?”

He doesn't have an option of hanging back. He just doesn't. And he's got to do a whole bunch of reassurance for voters that he is an acceptable alternative to the guy that they want to vote against.

Who is my Rogers? Because he's too tied to Trump. So you have to do both. You just cannot make it all about Rogers when all this money is going to be spent

making a dual into this monster. Like, he's got to push back on that and he's got to push back on it by just revealing his actual personality. - Yes, yes, it's funny.

When I asked that question about kind of the 2018 campaign between now, he was like, look, in 2018, I was 32.

I'd never run for office before I know business running.

So I decided he'd like go big or go home and then I went home. He's like a funny line in the stomach of speech. But he was like, look, I, you know, I ran thinking, like, okay, these are the things that a politician should be.

It's like the serious guy, the doctor, the nerd. He's like, I am all these things. But like, I'm also like, this is me too. And this is my personality. And I'm just trying to be myself.

And like, the cornea should ever in campaigns is like, let Obama be Obama or let Trump be Trump. But I do think there's an element of truth there that the kind of more layered version of a dual we're seeing that includes being the brought out, you know,

lacrosse captain or whatever is more true to himself.

“And I think they also think that that kind of message”

or like the cringey cheesy shit, the love island video, the blues clues video is a way to get attention and then offset this claim that he's too radical. I also, you know, I asked Andy Levin about the concern that a lot of, you know, the folks should listen

to still counting are amazing new polling data show with Nate Silver and Claire Malone and Gail and Drew.

Now they're still counting, get it on your podcast feed. Because they talked about the kind of concerns about a dual's candidacy and a really interesting and compelling way. But Andy Levin wanted to kind of push me on why

the traditional approach of moderation is wrong and that progressives are how the way to go in this cycle. You see, he's just pointing out that progressives have been winning up and down the ballot in Michigan primaries. It's where all of the energy is.

“It's where, you know, the only way you will turn out”

more people and be authentic to yourself if you're a dual. And he also thinks that this like a traditional measurement of extreme versus moderate. It's kind of ridiculous in a moment where like democracies hang in by a thread

and we're in a trade war with Canada that is really hurting Michigan and diesels over six dollars. So, you know, maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong. He's like, my hope he comes from being a union organizer.

We are always going against the boss.

You should never win. But what we did there is, you know, we rank all our supporters from 1 to 5. Like, 1 is a yes firm, yes, 5 is a no. And then you count the ones and use subtract 10%.

And that's your real level of support. And he's like, that's how I'm approaching every pole going forward because I'm a skeptical and concerned as you are, but we've got out hustle. - Yeah, and it's also, this is all about how you define

progressive and no one is just a progressive on everything or not or like voters are more open

“to a more progressive position on health care.”

They just are. They are less open to a progressive positions on crime, also just the truth. And you could go through every issue like that. And so, the challenge is to Andy Levin's question,

like, first of all, you can't completely just reinvent yourself

as someone new in a general election. You have your past positions and running away from all those positions is arguably more damaging than keeping them and explaining why you feel the way you do, right? So that's like number one.

And then number two, like the everlasting challenge for Democrats is all of the energy and excitement in terms of what kind of candidates and like how they inspire and how they talk about politics is on the left. And I might be more in more agreement

with a lot of center-left politicians on a host of issues, some are more progressive, but like their challenges, they're not, if you just give the stump speech and read the stage of directions and are boring,

they could work, it has worked in a ton of places, right? But like, I don't know if you're trying to capture voters in a primary, like, you've just got to be, you've got to have something to say real about the problems that people are facing

and not just sound like you're reading it from a fucking poll. And for people who are like really concerned about money in politics and really concerned about health care and haven't seen in like affordable care act past and they're still having trouble with costs,

health care costs, they wanna hear something, what you're gonna do about that.

“And like, that's why you're seeing all this energy.”

- Yeah, listen, I don't know if this progressive case is the right one, or if it means he's more likely to win, but just to articulate it more,

I think you said a well, like, voters have never hated

the establishment more. They have never had less trust in their government. So if you sell them the same old shit, the same old talking points, they're not going to believe you. If you at least come off as a fighter,

if you least come off, like you care and you understand the issues and you're not 150 years old, they like that. One thing I didn't get to ask a duel about John was kind of how his Medicare for all position has evolved.

You dug into this in some depth, can you just give voters kind of a sense of how he's gotten seemingly more flexible on this? - Yeah, so the big challenge with Medicare for all is it pulls well and then with the progressals

we'll say it pulls well, it's great, everyone, what's the problem from the centrist and all that. And as we all saw, we have to lift, we have to lift through 20 fucking primary debates about this where everyone litigated the Medicare for all

positions in the presidential primary in 2020. Once you tell people that it means getting rid of private insurance, the support goes down. Once you tell people the cost and that you cannot pay for Medicare for all a real single payer system

by just raising taxes on wealthy, support goes down. And you know, the Medicare for all supporters will say, well, yes, maybe middle class folks will have to pay a little bit higher taxes, but you're paying so much less in premiums and deductibles that it while it works out

sure, absolutely, but these are the attacks that the Medicare for all in your 2020. And one thing in the Democratic primary in 2020 that candidates like Pete Buttigieg did is they tried to split the difference

and basically, Pete's plan was Medicare for all who want it, meaning everyone can enroll in Medicare tomorrow after the plan passes. But if you really, really like your private health insurance, you can keep your private health insurance.

And you do not have to go into Medicare for all.

I'm Medicare for all plan, did eliminate private insurance completely, but even that plan did it over a set of years. So it wasn't all. Because if you eliminate private insurance tomorrow after a plan passed, bad things would happen.

- One six of the economy. - Yeah, it's a rough transition to do it right away. So even Bernie knew that it was like a four year window or whatever it was. So at dual, during the course of this primary,

he basically, his plan is more like Pete's plan was

in the 2020 primary.

“I think that is a great thing because I think it also”

sends a signal for 2028 in the primary that we are not gonna do another primary in 2028 where if you don't have Bernie's exact Medicare for all plan, that you are an apostate and you look like it.

And you shouldn't be listened to and you're just a neoliberal, I think if the goal is yes, we want every single American to have insurance and every single American not to go bankrupt and to pay just only what they can to see a doctor

and when they get sick, then there's a whole bunch of different ways to get there and Abdul has one way and he's showing flexibility and I think that is great. And if he wins the election, Donald Trump is gonna be president for two more years at least.

And then even then with a Democrat in 2028, we'll still have to build support for Medicare for all. So we should not attack him for a lack of purity between now and then we got to build support for this. The other thing I wanted to ask him about,

but didn't get a chance to was artificial intelligence, but someone in the audience asked about it and he gave a very thoughtful answer

“that I'm gonna we're actually gonna put into the episode”

because it was just worth hearing. It was nice hearing someone who is young and thoughtful. And again, it was like the example of his political skill because he was able to explain the hugging face attack with open AI in a way that was really short and sweet

and had people in the audience gasping

'cause they had never heard it before,

but it wasn't too confusing for them. - The question of AI is the existential question of our time. And it's not the technology per se. It's the incentives driving the technology, which are exceedingly dangerous.

Because right now it's all being driven by a few billionaires out in Silicon Valley. AI should not be used to do certain things like take your job or provide you health care or deny your health care or fire a weapon.

We need an international treaty that governs the use of compute so that we understand how these things are being used. If you're gonna build a data center, the following things have to be true. Number one, all union labor.

Number two, that you cannot touch our water. Number three, that you cannot raise our electricity rates.

“Number four, that you need to improve our electricity”

reliability, not just keep it where it is.

Number five, there needs to be a very clearly defined community benefits agreement. That's negotiated in good faith in public, not behind an NDA. Until we get that, in terms of engagement,

at the federal level, I think there need to be state and local moratorium on data center construction. We need regulation, we needed it yesterday. So the best we might be able to get is tomorrow. But we need regulation, we need it now.

- When I heard him give that answer, and this goes back to what you were saying a couple of minutes ago about why people like progressives and younger people and anti-establishment candidates. Because so I talked to I interviewed Seth Moulton

right before that primary and he was hitting Marky on AI because Marky was like, I don't know, whatever apps are on my phone. - Right, so then I dug in with Seth on what would you do with the regulations be?

And look, I don't want to criticize him too much for this because it was a short interview and we couldn't go on forever and we could have talked for an hour about it. But he didn't give much on the details

of how to safeguard it, what to do, all this, it was like, it's pretty top line. And I was like, yeah, okay, well, I thought you're supposed to be the younger, I know more about this kind of stuff guy and maybe he does again, but didn't get it in the interview.

Abdul, who is supposed to be the like, you know, oh, he's a crazy progressive and he just has slogans like Medicare for all. He gave one of the most thoughtful answers about AI that I have heard and he didn't just say like,

ban it, done, paused. He was like, or like, ban data centers forever. He talked about all the dangers, all the problems out there and then he was like, we would build data centers if these conditions are met.

AI, it's not the technology, it's the people controlling the technology. I thought it was just great and he sounded thoughtful. He didn't sound it to extreme. It was just, you could tell he studied the issues and care about it.

Yeah, someone smarter than me could tell me if it was bad policy or a bad answer substantively, but it was clear that he had thought deeply about it and he had something to say and it wasn't just kind of whatever, you know, the latest polling memo said was the most potent

attack against the data center industry or whatever. It was like a real plan. So look, going forward on the campaign,

from now until election day, they don't know really,

“like I think they changed the location of the town hall”

and Detroit a couple days before, right? So they're just kind of flying by the seat of their pants. They said they're just kind of outwork Rogers. That will probably mean tons of town halls, but it also means there's also a diminishing return

to events at this point in the campaign because you get your supporters and you don't get undecided. So they're trying to figure out media places to go on to reach different voters. But they really, I think just need money

and they need the progressives and the establishment to just get on board with this campaign and go all in. Because we don't just have an opportunity to like hold a seat in Michigan here. We have an opportunity to elect someone

who is young and exciting and a great communicator and is brilliant, like literal road scholar with big ideas who cares deeply about the issues. And I think we should just, everyone's be excited about that. Stop letting Fox News kind of drive the conversation

about this election.

That is the Republican propaganda wing of the party.

Fuck them. Let's all like, let's be a little more hopeful optimistic here about what the future could look like.

“And again, I don't want to like tell people what to do,”

but if you're still doubting a duel or you're not sure about the race or you're sort of rolling your eyes about all this or you're on the other side of the primary, like just watch an event, watch the event that you went to last night and see what you think and like I feel pretty confident

that people who listen to this show and a lot of other people will find it maybe surprising, compelling all of the above. And yeah, I'm was wondering about the money thing. I'm sure they're gonna get out spending the money.

- Listen, if you watch him and you don't and his interviews on foreign policy or Israel or about his on-piker are a bridge too far for you, that's totally fine. Don't endorse, don't support him, that's okay.

I'm just like, what I want from people is to do what you said, which is watch a full event. Like, let's let this election be about something more than just a controversy that Fox News is doing everything they can to keep in the news because they think

it's politically potent. Let's talk about the things that we really care about in the bigger picture in this election. Okay, so with that, here's my conversation with Michigan Santa Candidate of Duel Alsead.

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when you visit Neutrophil.com and enter promo code Crooked, that's Neutrophil.com, spelled and UTR-A-F-O-L.com. Promote code, Crooked. - I'm Nate Silver, I'm Gailindruk. - And I'm Claire Malone.

- We're back. This time with our friends at Crooked Media for a new show called Still Counting. (laughs) - Yeah, numbers are hard, takes are easy.

And frankly, numbers have only gotten harder. - What does the data actually cite? How do we reconcile that? What the other things that we're seeing in American politics and around the world?

And how do we use that data to understand or maybe even dare to predict the future of American politics? - New episodes, every Wednesday, starting September 9th.

Subscribe to Still Counting on YouTube.com/atstillcountingpodcast or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - Abdul, great to see ya. - Great to see you.

Thanks for coming to Detroit. - It's great to be here. - I mean, you're in Detroit and Mike Rogers and Dallas would have thought. So it's 820, it's probably your 13th hour of a very long day.

- Yeah, that's actually the tracks. - We're at the sprint part that's also at the end of a marathon of a campaign. - Yeah, that's right. - So the primary is a marathon.

And then you're like, you won, okay, go sprint five miles. - So it's fast as you can. And it's gonna be exponentially worse. So you just did a town on meeting here in Detroit. You had asked about food inspections,

like Glisteria, outbreaks, doge, whether Democrats are gonna actually fight for stuff, artificial intelligence, and public safety, and then the work you did to keep Wayne County prison open during COVID, they needed a press of ale.

And it was very different.

- Like those town hall questions,

“are they representative of what you're hearing”

to town hall events? It felt very different than a kind of national media narrative. - That is very well put because when I travel to stay and we don't just stick around here in Detroit we'll go all of the big state.

You can be in Detroit, you can be in Escanaba. And people literally use the same words in asking the same question.

And it's almost always about something

having to do with affordability, something having to do with government not working for them, something having to do with the existential dread of a data center or AI, or healthcare. Those are all the issues you get.

And then, you know, you go on to some media platform, hoping to communicate about the issues of the day and you get some question about a Twitch streamer in California. It's not to say that people make media in California are doing anything wrong.

But that is to say that they are not the subject of a race for Senate hearing machine. - Well, that was the thing that I was going to drive Obama crazy because when you are arch campaigning you're having like daily focus groups at all times

and you have like this visceral sense of what voters actually care about. And then you do the media scrum and it's just so divorcerment. It could be frustrating. - You know, maybe it's just because,

you know, I famously hosted a podcast and shared it. - And a lot of what I tried to talk about on the podcast were the issues of the moment having to do with this issue of health. Of course, that was a subject to the podcast.

But I actually believe that the media is important.

“I believe that the work that you all do,”

that the press does, that CNN and MS now do, maybe Fox News sometimes,

that it serves a critical role in our democracy.

And what frustrates me is that maybe like I'm a romantic about how this is supposed to work. But I'm like, guys, through the job. And you wonder why a lot of these traditional media outlets are hemorrhaging viewers or readers

as because people don't see themselves reflected in the conversation that's being had. And so in some respects, I remember this moment where there's a crossover between a very famous political reporter and the Super Bowl.

And I was like, oh, wait. It's because the medium with which we consume politics has become the medium in which we consume sport, which means that the political conversation has been moved out of a way of actually informing people

about what's happening in our civics, into coverage for people who have the time and space to think about politics like it's a sport, but here's the problem.

In politics, winners and losers really matter.

It's not that team versus this team or this issue of the day that keeps you clicking when people like my Rogers or Donald Trump win, like the people lose. And if you're not actually talking about it at that level, what's the point of doing this?

And I just, I kind of want the media to be better. - Yeah, no, I hear you. Your opponent was in Dallas, Texas tonight, speaking of like this Trump-a-poulosa thing. He said a bunch of stuff.

I mean, it wasn't a very long speech. He seems like he went there for like five minutes, maybe. Well, the more important reason he went there happened behind the closed door. - To kiss, to talk to Daddy Trump.

He said you want to represent Palestine. He said I want to represent Michigan. He said you sanitized extremism. He called you a con man. He said I'm a law man.

But I mean, I'm waiting to hear what the law man has to say about I guess when Ted Cruz was speaking about you, someone in the audience screamed, shoot him or kill him something for that effect. What do you think it says about our politics?

The Republican Party that kind of thing is happening in such a public venue. And by the way, Ted Cruz is kind of like chortling about it, right? And he's not like condemning it from stage.

You know, it kind of goes back to that point we just talked about, that this is real life. And we are real people. And all of us want to get home safely. And when you think about politics as being more about

beating the other guy, it's easy to cross that line rather than thinking about politics about actually delivering for people. And you know, if Ted Cruz was out there, or my broadcasers out there,

or Donald Trump was out there having a conversation about like, here's the very serious things that we need to do to actually try to bring down the price of groceries for people, or try to bring down the price of gas for people,

or try to make sure that people can see a doctor without losing their livelihood on top of possibly losing their life.

“I think you'd have a very different conversation,”

but that's not how they do politics. It's like this, winter take all culture war through politics. And it's very easy once you start to demonize somebody to the level at which you literally call them evil, which is what JD Vance called me what two weeks ago,

that you then get from there to a permission structure that allows you to call for violence against somebody. And politics, democracy is supposed to be the process

And it's been very clear they've been running against democracy for a very long time, and this becomes a logical outcome. - And this also happened on the day to the anniversary of Charlie Kirk, and he's assassinated, which was a horrible thing

that everyone condemned to left and right and should continue to condemn, but if someone's saying shoot them or kill them from state,

“you know, when you're on stage, you should condemn it”

in real time. You and I were talking on September 10th, tomorrow is the 25th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. You and I are both old enough to remember how terrifying that day was, how the country was gripped

by fear for not just days and weeks, but years afterwards. But you had to experience that period as a guy named Abdul al-Sayed and all the Islamophobia and suspicion that went along with it.

When I think about that day, in some ways it feels like a lifetime ago, but then I look at our political debates in the way that Republicans are talking about you and fear mongering about you and your religion.

And it makes me wonder if we've really moved on at all from the kind of post-9/11 politics of fear. And I'm just wondering like, what that period of time was like for you and how you think about it? - I remember I was a junior in high school,

sitting in my chemistry classroom

and I remember watching the second plane hit the towers

and thinking about what happened. You know, the victims of the terrorist attack that day were the 3000 people lost their lives, the first responders whose lives were irreparably harmed, the families who have a whole in their families

that's been there for 25 years now. The attack on our country, the attack on the ideals of our country. But there were huge ripple effects that happened. And one of the questions our country,

“I think constantly has to ask is, who are we”

and who do we want to be? And in the aftermath of tragedies like this, terrorist attacks, attacks on our homeland, we get to decide how we show up. And for me, obviously I went from being a brown key

with a funny name to being a very particular kind of brown key with a very particular kind of funny name. And I remember a kind of a set of awards

that I'd never heard before being hurled at me, literally,

every time I'd ever stepped on a plane field, I was just what came with it. And I also know that my classmates, my teammates, whether it was football, wrestling, world across, they voted me captain of the football team, wrestling team,

across team. And they saw a past the attempt by a few people to weaponize that attack to try to make America smaller. And by and large, we have seen in the past 25 years an attempt by a few people who want to gain power

to constantly define out of the American norm certain groups of people.

“And I think what made the political rise”

and presidency of President Obama, who was the president of my 20s, so meaningful and powerful to a lot of folks was that he was the image of an America big enough for everybody. And we find ourselves in a moment like that now.

But you're reflecting on 25 years, right? But we've been having this debate for 250 years. Who gets to be included? And a lot of folks asked me, well, what does it mean to me? I've only ever been me.

I don't know how to be anybody else.

I've never lived outside of this experience set.

But being me has also allowed me to see how people engage and interact with me. And yeah, there are the microdgers and JD Vance and the Donald Trumps of the world who see in me an attempt or an opportunity

to define America as smaller than. But I also get to interact with rooms full of people who are open-minded and big-hearted and are less interested in how you pray than what you pray for.

And are excited about the idea of an America that is bigger, more inclusive, more empowering. It does the things that America always should have done. And I hope that in this race is less about me and my identity and more about America and our identity.

And there's something exciting about the idea that Michiganers can prove Donald Trump from, that they can prove JD Vance from, that they can go back and prove the folks who wanted to persist in a Jim Crow era

or perpetrated in eras of slavery or destroyed native people. They can prove all of them wrong again. And that's the story of this place. So yeah, we're talking about 9/11 on the 25th anniversary because it's important for us to memorialize

that people were lost on that day. But it's also important for us to memorialize that they didn't tell us apart. They didn't take away that idea of an America that's big enough for everybody.

And America decided to be that place, that elected a guy like Barack Obama, that demonstrated how big it can be.

Michiganers are gonna prove that out to him. - You mentioned sort of questions of identity

and who you are and who you've always been.

“What I think of you, I think of my really smart doctor friend,”

the guy I would call, if I was trying to figure out, like, what is this new pandemic that I'm hearing about or hey man, like helping understand this wonky health care policy. But then a lot of the clips in the ads, I see out of your campaign, there's like a love island spoof.

You've been calling Mike Rogers a beta. You just challenged him to an Oklahoma drill. And it's a little, you know, it's more bro than nerd. And I'm just curious, like, what's the image or message or story you're trying to tell about yourself?

Like, tell me about the two sides and kind of what you want voter to know about you in a couple of ways with. - So the thing about politics is always collapses people. And I ran once before in 2018

and I had never run before I was 32 years old. There were all these open questions about, you know, I had to say my identity then too. And I realized I'd kind of flatten my personality in that race because I was like, well,

this is how a politician is. - Right. - And this time around, I was like, you know what? I'm just going to be who I am. I was authentically the kid in, you know, AP classes.

And also-- - I just made you a calculus teacher. - You've been my calculus teacher. - We interviewed her. - Authentically also the kid who, too often, you know, would be scrapping at recess.

I was both those kids. And part of it goes back to the fact it, like,

you know, I never walked into classroom

where I was put on quote normal, right? And if there was a bully in that classroom, you'd better believe that bully was coming from me. So I learned pretty early that if you let a bully take a lunch, you're not going to lunch.

I like to eat. So at some point, I was like, okay, you know, I know what to do with bullies. And my whole life, like I am the kind of person that if you're somebody who is struggling

and don't have what you need, I will go to the ends of Earth to try to provide those things. And if you're a bully who's taking those things away, I will pull, fuck out of you.

Because at the end of the day, like, I don't want a world where people like that get to decide who gets and who doesn't get. So what you're seeing out of me is, yeah, like, I write policy books.

I wrote the book I'm Medicare for All. I'm proud of that book. I like to sit down and research questions and think about how policy and I enjoy studying. And I also know that we live in a time

where the capacity to actually get good policy sits at the edge of defeating a set of bullies who've tried to dominate our politics away from that. And right now, we need folks who are willing both to think critically about big problems that we have.

And also, willing to step up to the bully. And the thing about bullies is they don't respond to reason. The reason they bully you is not because they've made a logical calculation about how best to engage in the world is because they're usually broken people

and they're approached to being broken is to try to break other people.

“And the only way you take on bullies is to take on bullies.”

So yeah, like they want to hit me, I'm gonna hit them right back. They want to pretend like somehow people should fear how strong they are. I'm gonna show them what strength actually looks like. So that we can get to a world where that's not what runs this.

I mean, there's gonna be an after Trump and I'm excited about that. So while we got Trump in our presidency, while we've got the many want to be Trump's, at some point, you gotta stand up to them.

And too often, I think as Democrats, it's like, I remember the kids in my advanced classes. Anytime there'd be this bullying, they just kind of be like, "Oh, what are we gonna do?" I'm like, stand up, bye-bye.

So right now is the time to stand up and bye-bye. - I also would imagine, like, wait, look, I believe you that this is who you are and having known you for like a decade now. But also, I wonder if there is political value here, right?

In that, you know, Republicans are trying to call you radical and extreme, and then they see you in a blues-close video and you're like, I kind of looks like goofball, right? This doesn't look like a radical.

A lot of young men in particular don't like the Democratic Party because they don't think it's masculine. We can talk about all the ways that masculinity can be defined in bad ways, it can be toxic in our culture. But it is like a thing you see in polling.

And then you know that Trump's demeanor and the way he is persona and the way he acts in the world appealed to a lot of young men. And I'm just wondering, you know, when you talk about lifting and football,

“and that kind of stuff like, do you think it is appealing to young men?”

Is there, do you think that helps you break through? - You know, I played sports my whole life. It was a huge part of my childhood, like chances are, if you met me when I was eight, nine, ten, I would be outside playing some sport

with all the neighborhood kids. And so, you know, I spent a lot of my time in a lot of those locker rooms, listening to those conversations being had. And there's this game that people play around masculinity

where they try to make it very hierarchical.

And I was always taught that any strength you have over somebody

The version of masculinity they like to present

“is one in which the only way you ever punch is down.”

And you're always kissing up.

I was always taught that if you're gonna punch you punch up and that you protect it down. And I think it's important for people to realize you could be strong, and you can be masculine, and not be an asshole.

So, if the adjective we always hear in front of the word masculinity is toxic, what does like benevolent masculinity look like? What does it look like to actually be strong

and use that effort to try to make yourself better in whatever way as a disciplining feature? But also a disciplining feature that is about how you promote others, how you become an integrator in your community, how you empower folks,

and how you demonstrate that ability to discipline yourself. They wanna masculinity is about trying to achieve power over other people. I would always thought that it was about achieving discipline over yourself.

And I think there's a way forward here, which is not trying to pretend to be them, but to show an alternative to what that is. 'Cause it doesn't feel good to be an asshole. It doesn't feel good to show up and just like

tell people off or be always feel bad about it.

- Right, yeah.

“- You know, not gonna be a psycho, it's a psycho, right?”

And then you're always watching out for somebody else to do it to you. So what does it look like to come out and be like, yes, out of your masculinity, you're going to be a positive force

to decide you're gonna uplift people, you're gonna fight for more justice, more rights, right? And yeah, when it comes to standing up the bullies, stand up, flex, but understand what you're doing it for. It's not about the power differential,

it's not about the power matchup. It's about trying to make a world that's better for everybody. And I think we have to be able to embrace that and embrace it in a way that is consistent with our values. - Speaking of kind of crossover appeal,

former Fox News host, Tucker Carlson, was talking about your opponent, Mike Rogers recently, and he said, quote, "I wouldn't vote for Mike Rogers at gunpoint," which make it that. And is that an endorsement of you?

Are we gonna do a Tucker event, maybe in Detroit? - Sometimes in? - Unlikely, but violent likely, I mean, no. (laughing) (laughing)

- I'm just imagining all the odds being like, wait, so there's a possibility. - Wait a minute. - Tucker, you see how this week?

“But look, I mean, I think what you get in Tucker's call”

is that is somebody who's seen up close, a lot of the corruption inside Magga. And what I think he sees in Mike Rogers is what all of us see in Mike Rogers. Somebody who's only interest is power

and the money he can make off a power. And so when he says that, it's because he knew Mike Rogers back when Mike Rogers was in Congress and he was supporting things like TPP and NAFTA and now pretends like he somehow,

somehow the guy who wants to stand up for workers or against free trade. The microodges he knew was the microodges who took us all to all those wars in Iraq,

extended the war in Afghanistan, who never saw a war

he didn't like. And now, microodges pretending he's against war until Donald Trump does war in which case he was great. Now we're loving her on. And he understands that microodges is the guy

who's never seen a corporate contribution he didn't like. So at least say which will about Tucker, there are a lot of things that Tucker and I are gonna disagree with. But he can see the corruption and the cowardice in the man. And it's just so off putting what you actually have

to look at in the eye. - Yeah, there were a couple of people in the crowd tonight who worked with you when you were in charge of public health. As you know, like faith in public health and institutions took a huge hit, it was a good,

took a significant hit during COVID. But then if you look at polling, it kind of fell off a cliff when Robert F. Kennedy took over the HHS and there's a lot of his P.S. Democrats no longer trust. You know, the CDC or Kennedy to do their job.

How do you think the federal government can rebuild that trust and better communicate about public health knowing that often? If you're talking about a novel coronavirus, right? Like you're not gonna know all the facts, right? It's gonna be an iterative process.

- You know what's on me? I think the foundational issue is that people had lost public trust in public health care well before COVID. And it's because there's a lot of amazing science out there.

But it always sits behind a paywall and a lot of people couldn't scale that paywall. And so when you have a Charlotte to new comes in and says, well, I have this all that alternative, and they're just trying to make money off you,

it's not that far of a leap to go from they make things I need, but they make them to expensive. So I don't trust them to, I don't even need the things that they make. I will remember talking to a gentleman

in the midst of the pandemic about the vaccine. And he said, you know, I'm gonna take the vaccine I trust you, but how come y'all are out here trying

for a disease that didn't exist a year ago,

that I don't even have. When I've been diabetic my whole life and insulin, been around for a hundred years,

“how come y'all are out here trying to give me free insulin?”

- It's like, a good point. - Yep. - So one of the big reasons is a public health official, I'm so passionate about Medicare for all, is because if we want people to trust,

health and health care, it can't feel like they're getting their pocket picked every day. And if we want to restore trust, the things that are out there need to be available for people

without having to worry about falling into debt,

without having to worry about choosing between seeing a doctor and paying your rent next month. - Buddy, thanks for the time. I think you gotta go sit in a van and talk to CNN, so we'll let you go.

- It's my life now, man. - It's my life. - Anyway, I'm in a van and Detroit. - I appreciate you being out here. - That's good to be welcome anytime.

“To all the folks out there who are listening,”

I hope you'll support us at opduelforcented.com. Get involved in this campaign. We are building a movement. We took $70 million on in the primary and still won, got spent 11 to one.

Because we built a movement to get money out of politics for money in your pocket past Medicare for all. That movement continues. I'm up against literally the poster child of the worst features of American politics.

A guy who is never gonna see an order from Trump.

He doesn't like, has never seen a corporate contribution he didn't like. But we've got an opportunity to win an opportunity to win on our values and start redefining what the Senate can be. I'm so grateful for you guys honored to have this conversation

and look forward to the next one.

“- Also, like the vibes are good out here.”

It seems fun. You got a fun team, people are cool in the town hall, so come out, volunteer. - We'd love to see out here. It's a lot of fun.

Michigan in the fall, I'm beautiful. - All right, John, that's it for Michigan. I'm a new, shut down my laptop, upload some files and run to the airport, so see you guys soon. - All right, we'll see you soon

and we will have a new episode in your feed on Tuesday. (upbeat music) - Positive America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Ferris Safari

with Reacherland, Elijah Cone, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hethcote, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis, David Tolz, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single. Our staff is probably unionized

with the writer's guild of America East. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - I'm Nate Silver, I'm Gailandruk. - And I'm Claire Malone.

- We're back, this time with our friends at Crooked Media for a new show called Still Counting. - Still Counting. - Yeah, numbers are hard, it takes very easy. - And frankly, numbers have only gotten harder.

- What does the data actually cite? How do we reconcile that? What the other things that we're seeing in American politics and around the world? And how do you use that data to understand

or maybe even dare to predict the future of American politics? - New episodes, every Wednesday, starting September 9th. Subscribe to Still Counting on YouTube.com/atstillcountingpodcast

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