Phones and Blame Fly at the DNC

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You can get 50% off your new system by visiting simply safe dot com slash crooked That's half off. It's simply safe dot com slash crooked. There is no safe. Like simply safe. This summer America Celebrated is 250th birthday, but if you actually sit down and read the declaration of independence You'll notice something wild buried right near the end is a brutal rant about and this is a direct quote Mercilis Indian savages as it turns out relations with native nations weren't just a footnote in the American Revolution

They were central to it. Think about the Boston Tea Party. The columnist literally disguised themselves as Native Americans

Later the country's very first attempt at a government collapsed large because it couldn't handle the sheer power and sovereignty of native nations

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“Look at this. I know. Okay, I think all right on today's show”

We're gonna talk about the democrats new 2028 primary calendar which puts South Carolina first and has already set off a debate About who that helps. We'll also talk about one democratic leader who seems beyond help DNC chair Ken Martin The subject of not one not two but three league field stories about the parties financial crisis Then we'll cover Trump's trip to Michigan in the big Senate race there as well as the latest with the Iran war and The biggest bombing of the weekend the president's performance at the rescheduled White House correspondent's dinner

Finally been with their stop by the studio to talk about the DNC drama that was constant gubernatorial primary drama

And his brand new drama free book. This is the plan All right guys, let's start with the biggest news from over the weekend that will impact the outcome of the 2028 presidential election We have a new primary calendar. It's here on Friday the DNC's rules and bylaws committee voted to make South Carolina the first primary state on January 22nd

2028 It will tentatively be followed by Nevada on February 1st New Hampshire a week after that new Mexico a week after that Michigan the next week and finally Virginia on February 29 before a bunch of other states vote in early March on super Tuesday The new calendar still has to be approved by the full DNC which will meet next month

But there's already one potential stumbling block New Hampshire has a law that requires the state to go at least one week earlier than any other state primary The DNC's proposed solution is for the New Hampshire Democratic Party to fund and hold its own primary That separate from the official state primary But it doesn't sound like New Hampshire Democratic leaders are on board with that plan just yet

What were Republican leaders or Republican leaders right there's also been some grumbling from a few progressive activists no They're putting so I say a few because access is like Progressives upset with South Carolina and then it's like a jack-up and op-ed and like one comment from his son-piker But there's a few programs that I really hold it. Yes, yes, it was because I I do my diligence I started like okay, this headline is great

Anyway, there's been some grumbling the putting South Carolina first gives an advantage to more moderate establishment candidates But we'll get into all of this before we get into what we think about the proposed calendar You guys want to talk about why this is such a big deal and how much you think the early state calendar matters

And this didn't work. This is the things we got. Yeah

We probably shouldn't have rigged it for him to only be revealed like four or five days later That was cool, but anyway, so much for Iowa something to step. Yeah

“I was gone. I mean, I think the early state calendar in its totality just could not be more important”

It's the whole ball game From the Obama perspective like Obama's not the nominee if he doesn't win Iowa And because it gave us huge momentum and it made people over the country believe that he could win But also it taught us how to organize and we put in place those organizing practices in all the future caucus states and Mopped up delegates against Hillary Clinton as we went forward

So kept paying out dividends during that long drawn out awful primary process The order will also determine you know what policy areas could highlight it like for example Iowa being first meant that we talked about ethanol probably far too much for far too long. That will now

We may never talk about it again. May not be as big of an issue

We now have New Mexico with Southern border state. We'll see if immigration is more salient this time around and Michigan We'll probably hear about autos and unions in Virginia Maybe dozes in issue again right you have a lot of government employees in northern Virginia But also gives more power to different demographics and you know types of voters older voters white voters Like voters right, so that's a bit of a part of the conversation that we'll get into in a minute

But I do think like Figuring this out is essential and it really does help in harm specific candidates

“So I'm just a counterpoint. I don't know that I agree with that. So I think you're right the schedule in early”

2008 was very important in part because Iowa was was perfect for Barack Obama to prove That despite being a Black candidate he could put together a coalition of white voters that were hyper-engaged and You built a great opera organization on the ground had Hillary not had a surprising win in New Hampshire it probably would have been over sooner

But that allowed the race to go back and forth. What it's interesting is the way the race ultimately goes back and forth It was told as a momentum and and narrative, but a reality it was Often more about the demographics of the voters in each state kind of ricocheting back and forth as like the fundamental Dynamics of the race didn't ship on the other side You have Joe Biden becoming the nominee. He loses in Iowa. He loses in New Hampshire

But he says wait for South Carolina. He's able to overcome Those early losses because they had set expectations and He comes out of South Carolina with so much momentum that he's able to clean up on super Tuesday and become the nominee So I do think it it's important to me

What I think is the most important is where the actual swing states fall in the schedule right where Michigan is for example

But sometimes I think we get into this idea of the order of states mattering when in reality It's a partly about the order, but also about managing expectations and How campaigns fair over the the the next few contests. It can win know, but I don't know if it's like a as Such an order. It's new states to I mean like let's say it was instead of South Carolina and Nevada New Hampshire was Texas Oklahoma Arizona like that sort of what I'm getting. Yeah, having these new states in there will just changes the issues and

demographics. Yeah, there's two factors. There's order and then there's states But right, you know, I do think I I think you can make an argument that order doesn't matter as much as Everyone thinks it does I think that the which states the composition of the states in the early windows

“It's hugely important. Yeah, that's what I was getting especially palliative them and especially now that there are five I think you”

You're probably gonna have a slower momentum build over time But if you have five states in the early window before super Tuesday and the two last states are very big states like Michigan and Virginia Both of which are also gonna be competitive states in the general election especially Michigan You are gonna know a lot by the time super Tuesday rolls around about who can put together a campaign that could win Almost any demographic group in any region of the country and

Like I I find it hard and unless now we Democrats Award delegates in each of these states proportionally unlike Republicans do a lot of winter take all states So they might who knows they might change that for 28 as well and they're side So you could see a situation Super Tuesday and beyond where it's like in Obama and Hillary fighting out a delegate battle, but

I tend to think that having five states go and that many that many states in that many votes in that period of time It's gonna pretty much tell you who's the who's helped me by the time you get to super Tuesday, but we'll say right they all like by the time you get through those early states You've been in White or states you've been in Latino states you've been to state with a bigger African American population by time you get to Michigan You have some like sort of prominent urban areas that have been you know strongholds for Democrats

You've gotten a good sense of the entire picture could you achieve that same thing if you did swap in a Texas and Oklahoma

It's also a border state Oklahoma is a very white electorate right might bring out more hyper-engaged Democrats in the same way that say like an Iowa would in the past

“Whatever, I think the part of the reason South Carolina was able to place such a big role in 2020 is Biden said explicitly wait for South Carolina”

You can't become a Demit you will not be a there will not be a Democratic president who doesn't have strong support among African Americans And then he wins so handily in that state that kind of proves that case and he kind of is able to march on to the nomination after Yeah, in terms of how much it matters though like You got to imagine every single campaign and waiting

Is after Friday's announcement is like now finally starting to plan their strategy. I mean like it is everything for a campaign

Knowing God states go first and in order it's like every decision is made around that where you travel What operatives you hire like yeah, and also there were people are talking about waiting until after the midterm The figure this out is like what are you talking about? You can't possibly do yeah when I saw that some of the progresses were like sort of and I had the same thing So who's actually upset about this, but you know Oh South Carolina is a boon to more moderate candidates. Well, that's sort of about what you're saying about the African American electorate

Not being as far to the left as Some like the more sort of the wider part of the of of of the Democratic base But now for the first time you might have instead of candidates spending six months in You know a crew white Iowa you're gonna have people spending months and months and months in South Carolina It's like well that's a great opportunity for the left to prove that they can appeal

Beyond their sort of online and sort of more

Lesterverse audience with Iowa and you Hampshire finally being dethroned as the first two contests

How do you guys think that changes the race and strategy of these campaigns? Well, it's just we're pointing at the both states Actually have laws on the books mandating their place in the order the Iowa glosses the caucuses have to be held at least eight days before any other Primary or caucus Iowa officials currently want to punt on that fight until after the midterms or whatever reason But we'll see what they do. I kind of think don't think they're gonna fight it New Hampshire's gonna go down swinging in part because you have a Republican governor who is not gonna agree to move it

I don't think the they're the primary so then they're gonna be asked to pay for a party funded primary And if they don't, I mean there's real consequences. I mean that if a state party refuses to abide by the rules The penalties are now they lose all their delegates at the 2028 convention That's up from losing 50% of your delegates and they have to pay a 270,000 dollar fine and lose DNC membership voting rights until the fine is paid off So that's pretty serious for them and there's penalties for the candidates

It's worth for the candidates. You lose all your delegates from the entire early state nominating window and you're prohibited from participating in DNC rule. Like I did this. I mean, so New Hampshire's gonna put on a party run a separate party run primary or else they are just going to take themselves out of the early state one do all together That those are the only two options because no one's gonna deal with these penalties

“The state of New Hampshire the candidates and so I think what they're all grumbling about right now”

And what I thought like Kathy Sullivan who is a former New Hampshire Democratic party chairwoman too Because I had asked about this on Twitter and she replied she's like what we have we're trying to spend money to elect two members of Congress in 2026 and a senator to to house members and a senator We're in now. We're gonna need all this money to put on a primary like that is a big Undertaking so I'm sure maybe some of this will be bargaining to try to get some money from the DNC which we'll get to

Just to just to put on the primary, but that is a big it's you know, it's a big deal There's a possibility if New Hampshire bows out because they don't have the money And they don't want to do this the only other Northeastern state that applied that would slide into that slot is Delaware Which is kind of interesting Do you guys like where the DNC landed on this group of states in this particular order?

I would have liked more swing states, but look my I am not maybe like I just I have so much on PTSD from 2007 2008 where the the calendar was treated as being this very very important thing

When in reality the experience of working for Hillary Clinton in that period was she would always do do well enough that she could justify going to the next contest

But not so well as to change the dynamics of the race and to me

“I'm glad like I'm glad Michigan's there. I think it is actually good”

That you no longer have this situation where the first two contests that draw so much attention in time for so long are these very white Places that don't reflect the broader democratic electorate But beyond that I do think like in the end part of the strategy is where you compete, but also part of it It is just how you tell a story about where and when you're going to do best So I look I'm I'm Sabzi. I will go because I know all the downsides of caucuses

We've talked about them, but there is it forces you to invest in organizing it forces you it incentivizes a nicer brand of politics because you want to be your opponent's second choice for reasons We don't have to get into so I think that we'll be missing that I actually I reset to a bunch of people who worked in politics just to like get their opinions on what they'd seen and their responses range from

It's impossible to know yet because a new Hampshire to this is going to boom around boomerang back on us and be a disaster That It's just going to be messy new Hampshire is going to screw everything up Once we get to northern Virginia you're going to have like DC You know media markets spend people like making a big determination and it will just

Kind of be a mess and who to hell knows about what new Mexico will do whatever like it's just one person's opinion I feel my personal take was I feel like the DNC and the RBC did a pretty good job of navigating a very Challenging process. I don't think the new Hampshire piece is solved in any way share performance

“I think we're whistling past the graveyard on that and that's something is going to have to give there”

The What do you mean like I just I think new Hampshire is going to fuck around They don't have the money to pay for this party run process and the Republican governor is not going to move the state So I just I don't know what's going to happen here I think can you end up with a primary we're just the damn it the candidates don't

Participate right I mean Joe Biden won New Hampshire with a right in and head to delegates Didn't right think it was like that no, but that's it's it's either they find the money to put on the primary or they're out There's no other up like the you know I'm saying like that's and it's just it's going to be up to them to figure out if they can get the money Or you have the DNC threats work no major candidates actually go there But they're super packs muck around in New Hampshire and stage right in effort

So they can show strength and they get new cycles at it right. So there's all these weird ways that they kind of mess around Yeah, so who knows on South Carolina? I mean I think South Carolina being first I agree with you like South Carolina first isn't like a massive change I think it's a reflection that black voters are the base of the party. They're half of the primary electorate there

I think the talk about you always hear from South Carolina people is

We have the track record of actually picking the nominee with who we vote for and like that's true, but that's because they went the field was windowed and then it gets South Carolina so they voted for you know South Carolina voters picked Obama Clinton and Biden My guest is South Carolina will now just kind of be the win-a-war it will be the filter function that Iowa and New Hampshire were I do agree it's a real bummer that it's just it's not a background state like you do all this organizing in these early states

And then the candidates never go back to them. Yeah, yeah, I agree that and look the reason that is is because the laws already in the books and if you look for other states with heavy populations of black voters to go first

“You have to find a state with a democratic perspective”

They can move the primary date and it's a whole month So I sort of feel the same with the by South Carolina, but I think they did I think four South Carolina going first They did a really good job of then balancing out the rest of the calendar Because you have I mean there's they have diversity all kinds of diversity right racial diversity geographic diversity ideological diversity

I also like that the first four states are small states

And so the kind of retail campaigning that you got an I/O in New Hampshire and this will be true of Delaware takes New Hampshire spot You get so you'll have South Carolina, which is a relatively small state Nevada same thing at New Mexico which is a brand new to this process, which is pretty small I just don't know what to think of that one yet. It's New Mexico is interesting so You have in that state New Mexico's overall voting eligible population is 45% Hispanic

That is the largest percentage of any state in the country They also have a significant Native American population That's the first time that we have an early state with a pretty significant Native American population

“Like you said time it's a border state, which I think is great. We have a democratic perfect there”

So they should be able to move that no problem It is more non-college The voters there than some of the other states, which I also think is helpful because you're going to want to prove that you can win non-college voters and not just Not just highly college educated voters. You get a new like you get a new Hampshire. What is the different function then like in their theory that Nevada plays versus New Mexico's meta also has a big Latino population it is compared to other states lower percentage of college voters also has Las Vegas, which is a huge important center for unions

Right is that like what is the different like what is the what is the other than just this is how it shook out And we yeah, I'm glad I liked having Nevada early when we were there That was one of the last trips we took before COVID Okay, I was on record or saying this last time, but boy am I happy will be spending a lot of time It will have no choice. I'm just gonna work to go

Right, but what is what is in there? What is the theory of the different role in New Mexico versus Nevada plays New Mexico's a border state? Yeah, and I don't even know if there's a theory of the being different what I took it as is

North the vow and South Carolina were battling for first and you know that South Carolina party chair was like well

If Nevada goes first what does that say to black voters that they don't matter as much and I think you pointed to me love it. So does that mean the reverse is true then the right to you Understand it and so now by having two states with significant Latino populations and Nevada also has a Significant black population as well not as much as South Carolina, but it does Then you get then you basically have two states in the early window that have pretty heavy Latino

South Carolina Nevada New Mexico these are states that are not that cold in November December January. That is cool

“That's what we want yeah, just gonna be New Hampshire and I guess Michigan”

Right, and we'll be cold too. Okay, very cool What do you guys make of the like the South Carolina Disadvantages progressives a progressive candidate? I think it's probably right. I mean the the South Carolina Democratic primary electorate. It's older more moderate than Iowa New Hampshire or or Nevada about 40% South Carolina Democratic primary voters were college graduates

About half identified as liberal which is less than earlier context. This is I think 2020 Exapoles they're more likely to be working class more likely to go to church once a week older Biden one South Carolina 2020 because you won with black voters, but he did especially well with black voters over 60 He and Bernie actually have it tied with black voters under 30 so I do think it's likely to be demographically Set up to be more moderate like as we were saying before like if you're saying that you think South Carolina

Is a way to put a roadblock in front of progressives. You are saying that a Black electorate is a roadblock in front of

“Progressive now I think the the point that would be made in responses is as Tommy said a generational thing”

Not a demographic thing, but of course it's it's both and We have seen like you know You see this in Michigan playing out that One of our dual challenges is trying to kind of build support in the black community and I I feel like This is an opportunity for

The left if they want to start building A bigger coalition that can win in contest like this right like because South Carolina that is where Bernie goes down In 2020 like if that's that that is that is the test and it may not happen this election you're right It may be harder because of this but but also the same time even if if South Carolina was third fourth or fifth

This test was always there that the candidate that that wins black voters is gonna be the nominee

Well, this is where I think that the order Matters may be less or at least can cut both ways because let's say South Carolina is Does advantage more moderate candidates well then you know so a fifth of South Carolina primary voters describe themselves as very liberal which

Relatively low and then you go to Nevada in a third of voters there describe themselves as very liberal so like if you're a progressive lefty candidate and you don't do well in South Carolina You hang on and you go to Nevada you go to New Hampshire or Delaware You go to you try you know like so there's there's basically there's a state on the map In that early window for any kind of ideological flavor or you know a different kind of voter

That you can get so I I don't worry as much about that I wouldn't worry if I was a progressive candidate or if I was in South Michigan candidate on like the order in that way What one under discuss change though is Nevada going from a caucus date to a primary state

“Which I think it'll make it legally to disadvantage progress is potentially because there's you know some”

Progressive tend to organize well in these caucus states and unions tend to do Better than You didn't tend to do really well in caucus dates. We're just interesting to see how that kind of cuts. I don't know yet. Oh, yeah Yeah, the fact that there's no caucus just means it's disadvantaging. I mean that that's yet progressives do better in caucuses for sure But even without the caucus Nevada will have like a more liberal primary like for sure than South Carolina

Dan made an argument in his Saturday message box the South Carolina going first massively advantages Kamala Harris what do you guys think about that so I saw that I thought huh that's interesting from Dan and then I I went back and looked at the South Carolina polling from before Kamala and did her campaign and she drops out in the end of 2019 before any votes are cast But in the closing weeks of the year

There were polls that had our somewhere between say five to 12 percent. I think she sort of like ticking down a bit as we got closer and so

I don't know I thought it was like like maybe that's true Right part of the reason she entered her campaign when she did is she just wasn't gaining traction even in a state like Santa Carolina. Yeah, what do you think so me? I think you know basically the argument is that Black voters are half the electorate in South Carolina that Kamala Harris has the most support from black voters by far in polls

It's just 69 percent favorability with black voters plus 22 You're right that like her her presidential run in 2020 did not end well in South Carolina or any state But that was just a bad campaign that didn't end well for her and I think four years of being VP probably changed a lot of things I think certainly it like what does it make her the front runner? Yes But being the front runner's double edged sword because the early states are not necessarily about winning all the early states

about expectations management and exceeding expectations in the early states and when you're the early on front runner and everyone

Better more interesting stories to tell for them. I just thought I thought and it's like as soon as South Carolina is over

Now you've got four other states for that month including two very big ones at the end and Does anyone think that the media is like no matter how good of a campaign she's running is gonna be like Yeah, it's the Kamala Harris front runner's story all through February like that's just not gonna happen Right it goes from like oh wow South Carolina advantage is Kamala Harris too Kamala Harris is the only candidate that has a state if she loses it's over

Right, that's definitely true. Well, and the the other thing we haven't talked about is if West more runs Or roughly all war knock like she's not the only black candidate that might run for president and then you could have Black candidates splitting votes

“You could have and then you know it's interesting like the two things that you need to know before starting to think about how the race is gonna go and”

Plan your strategy is the campaign one is the early state calendar, which is now locked two is the composition of the field

You need to know who's running who's gonna split what vote how they're gonna like that that part we don't know yet But like there is a situation too where if it's just Kamala Harris if she's the only black candidate running and she's doing really well with black voters in South Carolina Then because the state is More moderate overall and you have a bunch of white moderates running aside from except from Kamala Harris Then they're all splitting a vote and then maybe the progressive candidate or two does even better

So just imagine example like we have no idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just think like you know Some kind of like Pete Buttigieg who is historically had a really hard time with black voters like it's probably now to disadvantage Bernie Sanders worry to run again was probably a bit of a disadvantage for the reasons we just discussed A lot of the conventional wisdom is also that AOC came out of this new primary process Helped because she does well with Latinos and with labor

We'll see if she runs we'll see if that's true, but I'm mostly with you guys that like a lot of the early attempts to kind of You know, handicapped this race are just silly. We don't know what it's gonna look like. Yeah, he's not run brand scene who digs into these demographics and that's the better than most He said that the only the one through line for all of the states is the candidate Who's gonna be able to do best with black

voters and white college educated Voters as well is probably gonna do the best because aside from Nevada and New Mexico You don't have a lot of states with non-college big non-college populations and he was like, you know

“Last last candidate to have done that to bring that coalition together is Barack Obama, right?”

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Speaking of the DNC seems like Ken Martin had a bad Sunday The New York Times notice and the ballwork all-ran stories about what the times calls The troubled broke Democratic Party the time story was certainly the newsiest and most damning for Martin It includes a story about him throwing his phone at the desk of a junior staffer Which resulted in a formal HR complaint and another where Martin freaked out on a call about the party's finances because he thought his staff was planning a coup

And they were like, no, we're just talking about the money. Wow, no, cool sounds like just a usual law that I leave it threatening me But the real me to the story is the party's financial struggles under Martin, which are quite real

We already knew that the DNC is $2 million in debt after taking out a $15 million loan and more than a hundred million dollars behind the RNC and fundraising

But apparently the situation is so bad the DNC is asking vendors not to invoice them until after the midterms And for the first time the DNC will not be transferring any money to the House and Senate committees to help them win the midterms According to the Times, quote party officials are now reckoning with the fact that they must begin to repay $1.66 million of the loans principle per month starting in January Otherwise pretty nice building, but we shave as something where it happened to it

“What you guys make of these stories did anything in the make you more worried than you already were?”

Can I just read a great entry in one of my favorite parts of an insider story like this, which is a leak about leaks? quote, it pisses me off when I see leaks out of this building Mr. Martin said according to four people that heard the remarks adding no more That kind of leak that reporters like So funny the no more it's just a brutal thing leaks about leaks. I love I love So I reset some of the DNC staff can margins defenders. I can offer that perspective

I don't know if you guys want to start with reflections on the story. No, no you can't you will reflect after you okay? So what they would say is would we're in Bernstein over there would we're in Bernstein a veto over here Let's hear it. Okay, thank you for doing the work Thank you, I'm grateful to you Make one phone call you woodward in this building

So they would point out that through June of twenty twenty six the DNC raised more money than the DNC did And the entire twenty seventeen twenty eighteen cycle. They love that talking a comparable period Yeah, when Democrats did not hold the White House. They also argued they have more cash on hand the DNC did in 2019 so their argument is basically the median narrative is that this is like some historic disaster when in fact like There's recent precedent that they're actually have improved upon

They would also say like let's look at the investments or we're making The DNC gave a hundred thousand dollars to the Mississippi Democratic Party right before a special election that broke a Republican super majority obviously good thing the DNC gave money to South Carolina and after the first time in Fifty years South Carolina recruited to Canada to run in every state house race state wide race and congressional race So that there's some of a talking point where

Can sub-stack about this where he's like we'd ninety percent of the races we've over performed or won I think that's taking credit for the political environments and people being mad at Donald Trump, but you know It's evidence right it's results matter now. I also talked to some people who worked at the DNC in that period

“That twenty seven twenty eighteen period for Tom Perez and they'll say the thing you have to remember is that”

Everyone hated the DNC in 2017 because they blame them for Hillary losing and they blame them for Bernie getting screwed So money wasn't really coming to the door That was supposed to be yes. Yes, they walked into the building with

17 million dollars in debt the major fundraising team had been laid off so they were you had a standing start

And at least thirty million dollars of Ken's fundraising total was Kamala Harris raising money to retire her own debt So I think those people also can see like yeah that twenty seventeen twenty eighteen period fundraising wasn't good But comparing to the Not good period is is still bad Also they still in that election did transfer money to the house and Senate committees which they're not going to do this year

Well, it's also Hey in this game that we're losing we actually have more goals than the previous team So, well, you're not playing against the DNC from 2018 you're playing against the Republicans in

“Twenty twenty six so the last point I think I just make in response to the Ken too is like”

Okay, you're telling us you've raised all this money, but you're still two million in debt like that's

Suggest mismanagement in this spending you know what I mean? It's like a double the talking points a double edge story Yeah, that's my my feeling about it which is like before a sort of diving into all these stories Like oh, there's a massive fundraising problem at the DNC We're being outraged by a huge amount and then you read the defense. It's like well actually You know it's the we're out of power, but they're the raised the fundraising is actually

Comparable if not better Okay, and we're at all the money go out and then the test is if you really are going to say That we've been it's not a fundraising issue We've been using the money to kind of build infrastructure

And then you think well hold on that was the strategy where so right now

“Democratic candidates have been out raising Republican candidates the”

Are in the Republican House committee and the Republican Senate committee are out raising not not to the same degree as the DNC

R&C but are out raising the candidate committees and the the R&C has over a hundred million dollars more on hand than the DNC does

now before the Supreme Court ruled that The party parties could spend at the same lower rate as candidates. There's an argument to say you know what the DNC should raise money Get it out the door for building infrastructure Focus fundraising for the candidates those candidates can then buy ads at a cheaper rate than the parties But that advantage is now gone that doesn't exist anymore and so

They have more money in their superpacks their their candidate their candidate committees have more money and the R&C has more money and all of that is just Put's the Republicans at a huge advantage for buying ads over the Democrats and so then you say well That is the stat like regardless of what money went out the door like that is the situation right now So what do you do to get out of the hole the answer isn't to point you how much worse it could have in or how much different today It's like we are behind how do you close that gap? Yeah, and doesn't seem like there's any answers on that

from the From the DNC and it's not like they are sort of denying any of the stories You didn't throw the phone it's slid next to someone else Who didn't know in the front

Rufus Gipper who we all know Rufus He was the Obama campaign he was And he was the finance director of the DNC beautiful near you He worked there for eight years He wrote the subject today. He loves the place

He worked he was the finance director on Obama's re-elect on Biden's re-elect So he's been around for a long time. He didn't have a dog in the fight on Ken versus Ben or anything else, but he said in his subject post the DNC is spiraling towards a relevance

And that Ken Martin is a good man with good intentions, but simply not meeting this critical moment

And his chairmanship is beyond saving wait until that email goes out where he says to everybody come into that big DNC meeting One slice of pizza per person That's all we can do right now. No seconds slices at this meeting I was just just can't we cannot afford it. I once worked on a campaign where Our paychecks were delayed until the next year to make like the FEC report look better

So we had more cash on hand and by the way, didn't Suggest a healthy campaign and the things were going well But then a reporter called and asked one of our spokespeople if staff had been asked to delay their paychecks to make our FEC report look better And the this black said no because we had just been told Then we would not be getting paid over Christmas. We were not asked. So yeah, that was um memory lane

I mean I said the the question I was like what can be done about this because we're all in this situation together We're all like we all need the the DNC to be successful in the democratic party to be successful You know there is a scenario we were talking to someone where Once we have a nominee the nominee of the party installs their person to the DNC and you know tries to go around Ken and raises all the money But you know between now and getting a nominee

We need to figure like the party needs to figure something out unlike how to raise the money that we're going to need Especially with the Supreme Court decision as you said love it where now the democratic national committee It's going to be really really important for them to have a ton of money before there's even a nominee I this is a crisis. You know like this is the terrible fundraising and the off-topsy report and the interview with you This is all compounded into a crisis of confidence with DNC leadership and it is just not going to improve and it's time to make a change

“I think and I think Chuck Schumer and Hawking Jeffries need to go to Ken Martin and say we got to do something different here”

And they need to get someone else in there that just has confidence of big donors of parties, etc And yeah, I like we just can't overstate how important this Supreme Court ruling is In terms of erasing the democratic party The advantage that we used to have because small dollars would flow to our candidates who would get preferential rates on ad buys and then You'd have Republicans super PACs having to spend 10 times the same amount for the same ad now that advantage is gone

Yeah, and we are that just makes a whole even deeper and so like if I'm Chuck Schumer like you're trying to win a Senate majority if you're Hawking Jeffries you're trying to become speaker This is existential for well for me be on those two because for them. It's like you know the midterms are in a couple of months there That's that ship is sailed Every democrat running for president every one of these campaigns. It is in their interest to like

Together on this to like all go to these I don't think ship is sale for the midterms

“I think you could get a new person in tomorrow who could bring like a bunch of big donors to send a message and raise”

$100 million in like a couple weeks. I really like thank you although I think on that though

There's no need to give the DNC money before the midterms sure this is again like I'm I'm taking Ken's work like I read your long stop stack But if you look at like the like what his claim is then there's actually is a fair amount of money coming in and So what I don't understand is like there's this sort of like hand-dwinging. Oh, there's nothing we can do before November

If you're if there's this little amount of money on hand, but like what something like 8.6 million is coming in every month at the lead like

Why can't there be a change in priorities where you kind of do a do say From this point forward, we are going to be devoting these resources towards winning in November And this is the amount that's going to be directed towards this as opposed to whatever kind of a longer term kind of money that's going out the door

“Per month is like that's what I don't that's why I came away. I was confused by there's just this is a vicious cycle and you know”

Whickler was As usual very generous and kind of one over Ken Martin, but you know when there are stories like these It just deepens the problem because now who's gonna want to give money to the DNC after reading stories like this right like and so it's a it's a vicious cycle I did think one one more funny moment from the New York Times story is he's like he's he's got this staff

Mating and he's trying to like like everyone up and he says My success is your success so the weaker I am the weaker all of you are Which is true, which is a weird thing to say you're sad It seems so inspiring. I don't know that's the best pop talk I've ever heard yeah, yeah, I think I think it's uh get through like The other thing too is any like if you're a presidential candidate starting next year and they're like what do you think?

I can Martin you would just like when you know the present will choose a new DNC chair Right like we will have a better you know they're all gonna say they're gonna choose a new DNC chair So it's just like it's moving that up. Let's get this get through the mentor and swap this guy. Yeah, yeah, it's just like

“When when we swapped comma for Biden, I think the DNC raised like a billion dollars in a hundred days”

You know, there's a lot they could do this trip. We were to make a change. I think you know what it In Ken's sub stack he says we must communicate and organize year-round while one of the things that we learned in this New York Times story is that after the Potta of America interview Ken has only done like one local TV hit so I'm not saying he's our people in eerie He's very full now They just primarily a fundraising job right we don't expect him out doing to be out doing message events

But roof is kiffer than his sub stack made the point that when the DNC chair does a lot of TV that gets shared that could Seen by donors and makes them want to donate and be involved and kind of like keeps you in the mix and then also you have Like the DNC's got a lot of great staff and they must feel beyond demoralized and they're supposed to be doing things like You're around you know research and comms and digital on Republicans they're doing mobilization. They have this big like creator program

You know the RBC that rules committee just if you're really good job on the calendar and You need more hype reels for Ken And I'm just like creators I just feel bad for this team of people not just because the phones are flying but because like you feel like your your work is getting Denegraated in the news all the time and you don't have the leadership you need and you know it's important and like it just must be frustrating

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So Michigan's in the early state lineup because it remains one of the most critical swing states

and this false Senate race there is going to be one of the most hotly contested. The primary already is hotly contested. Trump would there on Monday to tour a GM facility and appear alongside Mike Rogers. The Republican nominee for Senate will face off against either Abdul Elsaid or Haley Stevens, though neither were mentioned during Trump's speech. He did however go hard at the DSA wing of the party. They're siding with the radical left communists taking over the party. They want

other words the normal socialists who can destroy a country too, they're not going to pass up. Communism is the greatest threat to our country and history including even World War I, World War II, Pearl Harbor, or 9/11. I mean what? This is a serious threat. In that order, World War I, World War II, Pearl Harbor, 9/11. I was like the normal socialist and he kind of said he's like the normal socialist who could also destroy the country normally.

He got enough for get that, that's important to hit. There's that Cold War fever dream nonsense. Very weird. I was kind of surprised. The Trump held back for mentioning the Senate race.

“What do you guys think that's about? I think he's suddenly a stickler for the Hatch Act. It was”

an official sentence. Yeah, I don't know. I mean there were my Rogers like are they? I thought they would be, I thought he would hit a duel. I thought it was a well, yeah. I mean, I do want to fight with Trump right now, right, presumably Democrats would love to watch a duel being a fight with Trump right now. So maybe the idea would be if you if you pick this fight, you're going to take attention into the race and but they kind of want to

do it to come out of the things. I don't know. Well, that's the thing, right? What you'll hear from Haley Stevens supporters of the Republicans want to face the duel because they think he's weaker. That were so. You would think that they would elevate him in this moment right for the primary. It's weird that they didn't. I don't know why. I mean, it could just be because Trump is dumb and forgot his name and like, you know, it's supposed to do it at a communist rate. And there is some

evidence to that that they do want that because Mike Rogers was like, there was a recording of Mike Rogers on a call with others saying like, yeah, if it's a duel wearing good shape. And so, you know, there is evidence for that, but they remarkably disciplined from Donald Trump there. Or maybe it wasn't disciplined, maybe you just forgot, maybe doesn't care. Right, or is there any argument that Trump and Rogers think if they publicly pick a fight with

“a duel, it helps Haley Stevens? Is there any, can you make that argument? Like, that's why,”

I mean, Rogers has a behind the scenes in the kind of kind of, to try to be like, I'm excited about a duel, which is a perfect thing to help Haley Stevens. It's not a public fight. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. They also might be thinking that if Haley Stevens wins, you know, they want to label them both as communists. Right. They don't want to do it. They're not trying to keep treatment. Yeah. Right. If Haley Stevens wins, they're not going to be like,

oh, we really wanted to, you know, like, they're going to act like she's as left wing as possible. Right. That's what they do. Meanwhile, Abdul, who is, you know, we're all supporting in the race, was quoted in playbook on Monday morning, telling donors on a private call. A lot of these private calls. These dooms. You got to get these dooms. They're not that private. No, kidding. Um, so he was telling donors on a private call that all the

money and political power being used against him makes him look like David against Goliath, presumably, meaning both Haley Stevens and APAC. Um, and how if he wins, he'll have a massive

think of his assessment of things? I mean, like, I say this would love for Abdul, but I thought it was

not good. You know, like, my first argument would be, you got to win the general election first

and then talk about this stuff. Like, you're spiking the football in the 30-yard line, what's win the primary, what's win the general, then you can maybe talk about 20-28 if you want. Also, I'm sure what happened was you started to pump up donors and supporters,

“but you have to know this stuff is going to leak it always leaks. And the ogre comment is getting”

taken out of context, like, people are suggesting. He said, oh, we have started. I didn't mention that. He said, this will help me put an ogre on a pike. Right. Which is about John Fetterman. People are suggesting he was comparing Haley Stevens to an ogre. It does not sound like he was doing that in any way, but also don't call John Fetterman an ogre. You know, it's not helpful. I think it kind of plays into this belief among a lot of Democrats that the left wing of the

party is far more focused on going after moderate Democrats than Republicans. Let's, I too find John Fetterman very frustrating on a lot of issues, but he's an elected Democrat senator in a swing state. Let's beat the Republicans first and talk about that. And I think my other just like big picture coming for a duel is take every sentence where you say I in replace it with we. This campaign is not about you and what you're going to do in 28 or whatever. It's about the movement.

It's about what we are going to do to make people's lives better. The issues we're going to elevate, like the way you're going to fight for Michigan. I just think it was, um, it was not good. Yeah. This is the second interview or this is the second sort of, uh, first with an interview. This was a week recording. But the second time we've gotten sort of, uh, this sort of tone for

“me that Semaphore interview, I think was that a similar level of like, I don't know. It's a costility”

and kind of a grandiosity to it. But also it's Punditree and as a rule, if you're Canada and you're

doing Punditree, that is a mistake. That is, if you think of always the gross gaps. Always with the donors.

But the donors, every country with the donors is the worst set is this. That's where it happens all the time. That's where Mitt Romney says 52% Barack Obama says bitter guns and religion. Um, like that. Like Hillary, I think deplorables was a classic was that was a razor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's a common trap that you're sort of like analyzing the electorate. And if you're doing that as a candidate, by the way, which is something he understands in his

interviews where he's actually very like he, he to me interview with, uh, uh, uh, Dasha Burns. And even she was like, my god, you're on message throughout this. Uh, entire thing that kind of lets loose when I think he thinks he's in private. The other part of it, too, though, is like, it's got to be frustrating because we're campaigning in daily Stevens who's getting all this attention for having this aweshocks pure

Michigan thing. And then a pack's dropping like $30 million on their head. They're like, put a sort of

salad in it. It's fucking hands. Uh, we'll see. We'll see what the odds are. Yeah. Um, I think for progressive candidates that tend to do well, um, have a sunny or disposition. There is, they do express anger, of course, but there's a sunny or disposition. And what, what Abdul has nailed is the liberal patriotism. And we saw that with the, uh, when the protester jacling, like, you know, interrupted one of his events. And he talked in the, basically, they shattered him out with the USA channel. Right.

“Abdul gave the speech. So he's got, he's got that part down. But you can't be, also, you have to”

look, you have to be happy all the time. And not be, uh, and, uh, and not be hostile to your opponents. Yeah. That's the best way that's the game. I was like, there is something deeper that this is not about Abdul. There is a, like, uh, a bad face critique from the left that takes, I think, what is largely a true argument about the influence of money and politics. And by the way, it's just for saying, like, what's happening in Michigan is fucking crazy. This is the biggest outside spend by

a pack ever. It's 30, maybe on any Senate race ever as an primary, uh, all being dumped on his head. Like, that is what is on television. And the ad, like, that there's two ads that are going around that are, like, that are just, like, really manipulative to, like, say that, like, Abdul is bad for women, right, taking some quotes out of context. But at the same time, like, when Whitmer endorses Haley Stevens, it's because she's bought and sold. Right. And, like, I don't believe

Kretchen Whitmer is bought and sold. And I don't think most Democrats in Michigan believe Kretchen Whitmer is in bought and sold. Uh, Michigan, back to Haley Stevens because she probably thinks Haley Stevens is a better chance of winning. That's it. It doesn't help you, probably, to attack in pretty personal terms of very popular Democrat in the state you were trying to represent. And my guess, you know, there's probably some old bad blood there from 2018 when they ran against each other.

What's the winter through it? And when Abdul is going to eat shit, that's the whole of this, that's running throughout all six. And like, so like, when Abdul is asked in that interview about, like, whether he identifies as a socialist, he says, I don't identify, like, like, what, and he, he actually won't answer where he disagrees with Bernie and AOC. And he says, like, I just don't identify as a socialist. I, like, appreciate some version of, I appreciate capitalism. I'm sorry,

I'm just going to be a nuanced guy. I'm a nuanced guy, right. But that nuanced doesn't, like, especially, I get why in the heat of a primary. But like, you know, when, like, you say the

it's just, like, I get why it works on the stuff. I get why it's a valuable way of simplifying what's

“happening. But I think we, it starts to feel, um, I don't know, like, uh, like, like, turning this”

race into like a black and white mannequin struggle, which is what comes off in these private conversations. No. Uh, so Trump also used the Michigan appearance to provide an update on his, uh, on again, off again, or in Iran, uh, which suddenly appears to be off again after Trump threatened a massive attack last week. U.S. officials told reporters that the shrinking supply of air defense systems was at least partly responsible for the pause, which Trump, of course, blamed on Biden.

We also find out this weekend that the forced service members who recently died in the Iran war are no longer listed in the Pentagon's casualty count for the Iran war. Uh, instead of the Pentagon moved the tally of their deaths to a new section, generally called overseas operations

casualties. Uh, they also updated the number of injuries to over 600. Uh, here's what Trump had to say

about the war on the flight to Michigan and at his event there. Well, Iran took a beating over the last 14 days. And they asked us very nicely. Please stop. Let's beat. And that's what we are written to what happens. When the fuel comes down, which it did for a little while, then they didn't behave and I had to go back and now they're behaving again. You know, it's like playing a banjo. Hmm. Is it like playing a banjo? It's like, I can what way is the Iran war

like playing a banjo? I think I know what that is. Tell me. I think that what he is thinking of is the song that goes back and forth from the film deliverance, but a bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum in the film deliverance. I know I know that. That is what I can still struggling with. It's a back

of course because it's a back and forth. It's a school like a pig in this one. I think I think I think

“I think it's us. Um, I don't know. Tell me, what's what do you think? What's what's going on right now?”

I mean, we're losing the war. The, the straight of her moves was once uncontested and now it's contested and I think in the long run, Iran, geographic, you guys might have noticed on a map. It's, that's where it is. Straight of her moves. I feel like they have the upper hand there. The New York Times reported that American intelligence agencies believe that Iran's new supreme leader, uh, Mujtaba Hamanai, is far more interested than his father in acquiring a

nuclear weapon. J. I wonder why? So that's good. That's not what J.D. Vance said. I thought that they were becoming friends. Yeah, the father had sworn off, uh, a nuke. There was a fattua against them. Obviously, the people questioned that. But, um, many analysts thought it was a genuine sentiment. And now there's quite an argument for getting a nuclear weapon. I think the long term impact of the war as this is like just, it's going to be sporadic, uh, economic disruption for a very long time potentially. And

“that increases the likelihood of U.S. service members getting killed or wounded, uh, the same goes”

for civilians in Iran, by the way. Um, and anyone living in the Gulf, you know, in a base where the Iranians are firing at. And people are getting killed all the time. Um, it is led. There's just growing instability. I mean, you're now noticing like the Houthis rebels are getting involved in the war. We're before they had not. There's these reports that the Saudis of the Emirates are directly engaging with Iran and firing missiles or, you know, bombs into their territory.

So it's just that the worst metastasizing and growing. Um, it's wildly expensive. You know, we have Hexeth and others going to Congress and they want a 1.5 trillion dollar Pentagon budget next year. I mean, that's insane. Um, and the munitions issue is a really big long-term problem that we can't fix. Like, there's all these interceptor missiles. There's the FAD system. There's the Patriot stockpile that's down by half. There's all these air to air missiles that are running low.

There's the T-Wam or Tomahawk. So it would be like, there's all these war games of a, well, U.S. were with China where you run out of Tomahawk missiles in like a week with the full stockpile. And now we're way down on those. And in many cases, these cost millions and millions of dollars each and they, they can take as long as 20, 30 to replenish them. So it just feels like everything he's done has sort of made our posture weaker both in the Gulf and vis-à-vis China, which

Trump ran on telling us was the big geostrategic problem going forward. And now, one of the political problems of any war, which is U.S. service members dying and being injured. Now they're handling that. I just deciding to do some creative accounting, where they hide the deaths from us, for as long as they can, or the injuries, or the now they're listing the, listing them as overseas operations, casualties is despicable. Yeah, it really is.

The like the options of, well, he can escalate, right? It's actually, it sort of mirrors what happens in our domestic politics, where Trump has, Trump has to threaten greater and greater chaos for the markets to take him seriously. And so the markets have to respond more forcefully in order to get him to back off whatever the latest threat is, be a tariffs or some other economic policy that would be destructive going after the Fed. And so now he has to threaten

It's going to make the early stage of the war look like a firework show, because he has to, because the only, he has to ratchet up the threat, because that's, I guess, all he has in terms of trying to get some control over, over Iran and get them to sort of relent on the straight of our moves. So that's one dangerous path. The other is some kind of increasing sanctions,

economic crackdown, right? Like to sort of try to squeeze around that way. And then finally,

“it's like, just saying, we did it, but even that option, which is, I think something we were, oh,”

well, he should just declare victory and walk away. That's not really available anymore, because that the Iran will continue to control the straight of our moves. The fake outcome where he says we got a better deal than Obama had, even if it's worse, is not available anymore because we've been so thoroughly sort of bodied by their ability to control the straight. I think this, this, the way they change the reporting of casualties is all about trying to get around the warp

powers act by saying the old war ended and this is a new war, I think. But it also sounds like they weren't really updating casualties in a timely manner and then for the standard way. Like, there were reporters kind of watching the website where this is reported out and seeing it kind of bump around last week go up and down. They're like, what does happening? Even now, the numbers aren't all in agreement. Like, yeah, we don't have a straight forward answer. The total of the

two conflicts, Operation Epic Fury, and then whatever they're calling overseas operations, it's an 18-dead, 624 wounded. And so they've also, they've really not been very transparent about what those, the wounded number mean. Yeah. They're like, oh, it's mostly minor concussions that they went back to work. But, you know, traumatic brain injuries from, you know, a holistic missile exploding area, that's a big deal. And it also, it's part and parcel to the Pentagon covering up

the cost of the war. It's just not being transparent. Like, I, you know, I have friends who are still in the military or people who are overseas will be like, you know, they're shutting down. You can no longer take photos on some of these bases. These are just so destroyed that they're basically rendered unusable. People who had to be evacuated from some of these places. Like, the cost of bases just being like, you know, unoperable for many years to come now. It's not really been

like fully calculated. Yeah, the heck's that going front of the Senate and saying this war cost $35

billion dollars, but we need $80 billion right now in an emergency. And then they're like, well,

why don't you already have $80 billion in cash? And he's like, no, no, no, I've already decided what that's going for. And we have to do this because Biden spent all of our money on, whoa. And it's like, that may work in a Fox News. What the fuck are you talking about? I'm just as woke up. All right, speaking of bombs on Friday, the White House Correspondence Association held its reschedule dinner after a gunman interrupted the event back in April.

It was a smaller venue with a smaller crowd and more security, but Trump basically gave the speech he'd originally planned on giving and boy did he crush it. The other day, a senator, I knew, got a tax of great guy from his wife. And she said, when you get home, I want to have you immediately come up to stairs and make love to me. And he said, I can't do both. You know what the, you know, in other words, can't go with the stairs and to make love. Does anybody

“get that? Why thought that was actually pretty good? That was actually the only thing I”

thought was good in this whole freaking stupid speech that they wrote. I was the only good one and that went down with not exactly great laughter. I don't think, you know, in other words, you can't go up the stairs. We're done. So we're looking for term limits. Does anybody understand this? We will have something on sloppy Chris Christie, one of the sloppiest human beings you've ever made fighting, I would say I could mention the governor of Chicago, but I'm going to mention

instead during Adler. And they're fighting for a big piece of cheesecake, big fat piece of cheesecake. Good, I'll wrote that slide. Barack Hussein Obama hosted it. Do you know who that is? And he hit me hard and I have watched this clip thousands of times they keep playing it because they think that was evening. I decided to run for president. It was not. He actually showed a picture of the White House where the big Trump on top, like I put a sign and you know, I'm sort of doing that

when you think about it, right? Now, we have all said, previously, that Trump can be genuinely funny.

That was so bad that I almost started feeling sorry for Donald Trump, which has never happened.

But like, that was incredibly painful, especially the sex up the stairs joke when he goes and then he's like, oh, that was one of the better jokes. And then one more time he's like,

“because it's like the third explanation of the joke. Did you see that he stole that joke, too?”

Yeah, it brought from Brad Paysley Leary. Well, it's a classic bushbell joke and it could have worked. The reason I didn't work is he, we've done many of these speeches. You're trying to get

hour, and by the time he gets to that light-hearted joke about Senators being old, he's described how much he hates half the people in the room called Don Lemon Dunn. He said, Adam Shiva said, ugly fat head, he hates Colbert, compared Caitlin Collins to Dylan Mulvaney calls Josh Jossie unhirable.

“Right, if you want to pull it through. Right, he's on the board. And then he's like, anyway,”

anyway, boy, your senators are old these days. Right. So of course, by the time you get to that

part, like they even sit in there for 45 minutes, it's brutal. He's never read the speech. This is the

other thing. It's like, you've got to, I know he thinks that he's a genius and can just go off script whenever. You got to practice to speech like that. Can you imagine Trump practicing jokes? No, I can't, but he had like one good Barry Wise joke. He had a couple like well-structured jokes that he even the Barry Wise joke, which was good. He didn't, like, he didn't deliver it well. Like, he could have delivered it in a funnier way. But also, I think it was in the prepared remarks.

There's like a like a portion of his stump about Gavin Newsom and California that he seemed to be reading off the teleprompter. And it, and so like, he says horrible things about Elon Omar. Like, he just goes into his sort of vicious and cruel mean spirited ripping. And so the whole, like, he doesn't, he goes, pokes a little bit of fun at himself here and there. But like, of course,

“there's not going to be people laughing. It's deeply uncomfortable to be an event that's supposed to be”

light-hearted. And you just like, go for the jugular, like he would it a rally. It's just like,

you're not built for this because you're such a fucking asshole. You know the comedy seller at 11 p.m. you're in front of the most over-sensitive group of people you can find in your being. So I mean, by the way, didn't Jerry now, they're like, hit the GLP ones a couple of years ago and he's lost a ton of weight too. Yeah, he's the red thing made no sense. And he, he, when he talked about Pritzker, the governor of Chicago. He, he mentioned that as well, too. He's like, he's actually looking better.

He's looking better. He's just a dick is really the problem. But it started kind of magnanimous, because like he did this whole bit at the top about how like the last dinner was bad and celebrated the, you know, the cops who kept everybody safe and said how that they had to, you know, they wouldn't let the the show get canceled because that lets the shooter win and then we've just went into this tyrant. And when you looked at the, all the cuts to the audience, when you watch

“the whole thing, it was like, it's just silent. And also, I know there's also a room full of journalists.”

They don't like Trump. But like all of his administration, all of his people were there. No one was laughing. Yeah, just like the funniest thing was when you got the laugh there and said, I thought that was the best joke in the bunch. Yeah, the whole thing was very ugly, right? Because he's going up to Caitlin Collins and all these journalists and this really personal and sort of obviously misogynist way. And then you have like the, the reporters on the day has kind of like trying to

like laugh. And they're, the whole thing was ugly. And so then you have like New York Times reporters, like Peter Baker being like, we should rethink this dinner, which is they're on their high horse about the fucking dinner, because they haven't gone forever, and are glad for that this day. So they're to the credit. Yeah. Yeah. What did anyone expect from him was he going to learn this time? Obviously, this is who he is and what are you going to say? And by the, like he says once he

had two jokes about Caitlin Collins, one was suggesting she looked like Dylan Mulvaney, what she just said.

But then also being like Caitlin Collins never smiles. He says that to her all the time at press conferences.

Every time she asks him a tough question, he's like, what's your problem? You're pretty girl smile. He's the sexist old man. And like he doesn't do that as part of a comedy bit. It's part of his like stump deflection routine for hard questions. Like he's just a shithead. Yeah. He's a shithead. It might be time to retire the dinner stock, the course of the dinner. Well, now that we've moved it to the, the, the former Trump hotel. Now there was a story of smaller said. He made a

hard image for the ballroom being. Well, we knocked down the arch in May sort of get the gold leaf off the White House. And we restore independence of the Department of Justice. At the bottom of that list, we can decide what we want to do when what happened to the White House cars class problem for sure. Yeah, that's probably the remaining rump state of media. Uh, didn't stick around to the mentalists have to say I didn't didn't catch those. Yeah. He did, he did give, he did do the joke,

which was if you're such a mentalist, how come you didn't know that shooting was coming out of the joke. Everyone made the night of the shooting. Yeah. He ripped off all his work show. Is this still funny a couple months later? No, they work. Okay. It works crazy. All right. When we come back, Ben Wyckler. Pot to have America's brought to you by Chime. Summer adds up fast. A trip here, dinner there, a couple concerts, a visit to an amusement park. It might have you wondering if you're getting the

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Side up now, it only takes a few minutes. Chime is a fintech, not a bank banking services, and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners, qualifying direct deposit required. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for details. Ben withler. Welcome back to the show. It's great to be with you. Congrats on the new studio. Thank you. This is pretty sweet. Pretty fancy. All right, so I want to get to the book,

but first I have to take advantage of the entirely coincidental, but highly opportune timings of you being here and ask about the messy gubernatorial primary in your beloved state and the messy leadership situation at the DNC, which you ran to be chair of. I know you well. You are far too wise and generous to shoot on Ken Martin. I've got that covered. But I really want your honest thoughts on the DNC's financial situation. Ken's argument is

that a party is not a savings account that he chose to spend early on organizers and technology and state party infrastructure. And that's also more or less your argument. The argument you

make in the book. But of course, the party is now $2 million in debt while the RNC is sitting on

$128.5 million in cash. So do you buy his defense that that's just the cost of investing early?

“So I agree that you should invest early and the goal what you want is to be able to do both.”

You want to be able to both have the money to invest in places that will take years to be able to build the power to win statewide, but there's state lettuce that raises everywhere where we can win. And you also want to have the ability to invest in the places where elections are closest and highest stakes. And then you tip those over the top. And I think the challenge right now is there's not quite enough money to do either. The other thing that's new in this moment

is the U.S. Supreme Court ruling that allows parties to invest in unlimited support for federal candidates. Wisconsin had a version of that that was started under Scott Walker. We call it the Scott Walker loophole. And it is the way that we beat Elon Musk, who outspends us dramatically, is that the Democratic Party of Wisconsin was able to raise money and then transfer it to to our candidate who got a lower rate for TV ads than the super back ads that that Elon Musk was

funding in our state. We also had a better message, better candidate, and didn't have Elon Musk hanging around our neck. But the end huge grassroots organizing talk about that in the book. But right now that means that national committees could do a ton more if they have the money to be able to do it to support candidates in the places especially for candidates who don't have huge fundraising abilities on their own, but who have totally winnable seats and who if they have the

funds to get their message out, can win in places that are maybe off the national radar. So this is a time when having more funds at the DNC, having more funds at the other national committees makes it an enormous difference. And what I want is for Ken and for the DNC to be as successful as possible. I think there's a huge opportunity in this election, including a lot of places right now where Republicans aren't investing and don't realize how mad voters are.

So yeah, if I weigh the magic wand, there's a flood of money that comes in and we're able to invest in winning sometimes in speakers in a whole bunch of places that expand the map and

“safeguard the future of American democracy. Well, yeah, so that's what you just said.”

I mean, you raised and spent $63 million in 2024 for the Wisconsin Democratic Party?

That sounds right. Which is a little more than the entire Democratic National Committee has raised so far in 2026. Is the honest answer here that spending early only works if you can also raise and the raising is the failure here? I mean, there's, I think there's a lot of puzzle pieces here. I think that right now there's a kind of like viscous circle where there's negative news cycles that then make it hard to go out and say this is a good time to invest. And I think that

start changing when people see, oh yeah, if I donate here, it's going to have a big impact on making, making these better and winning elections. And I think that's, you know, maybe that change starts right here on the pot. Maybe, but whatever whatever it is, like we can't, as long as we're in circular firing squad mode and not, you know, pointing to where we need to like throw our shoulders against the wheel to save the country, it's very hard to get out of that cycle.

And also like the election is 99 days away. There's a huge opportunity to like flood the zone in the places where elections are likely to be tightest and where a push can make the difference. And I will add that that is not just house incentive races like at all levels. There's going to be state legislative context that have enormous significance. One thing in a,

“I think the New York Times story was about the DNC helping Mississippi break the Republican”

Supermajority at the state level. That I love like that was a hundred thousand dollar investment

Supermajorities in deep red states can have enormous impact on the future of things like redistricting.

So, you know, part of the argument in my book and my, my kind of life work at this moment in the Democratic Party is look at the whole map of how power is built and wielded in this country. The right keeps using its power to rig everything so that only a handful of people can write the rules for all of us. But if you can unreg the system often at the state and local level,

“those races are often much less expensive and have huge up ballot consequences. And I think it is”

it is good to think as a party about how to fight at all those levels of once in the interest of fixing things. What would you do about the money situation if you were in Ken's position right now? I would, uh, which I'm sure Ken is also working on. I try to raise more money so that you have more money doing best than the various things. And that to me, the biggest thing is being able to

lay out if you invest here is how we're going to be able to win more fights that that folks care about.

There's often, you know, when people think about the correcting influence of money in politics, which, you know, you only have to look at the news to see the corrupting influence of money in politics. Yeah. But very often it's about policies that particular candidates or elected officials hold. Parties are not where people who want to change policy. It's not where they give. Especially when there's not a democratic president. Uh, what parties do is they help create infrastructure

for victories or losses. And so the way to raise money for the democratic party is fundamentally to to instill trust to demonstrate the results that come from those investments. And I, for all

“the kind of debate about the 50 states strategy, I think one of the things that is really helpful is”

when you see what's being done in particular states with those investments that actually generate to like troll victory. And then it makes you enthusiastic about investing. And I think there's a lot of stories like that that I would love to, uh, I'd love to see more of and hear more about.

I think about, you know, some of the state parties that are doing amazing work, like North Carolina,

there's this huge focus on, like, local organizing that's going to affect things like the state supreme court race. On the country is not thinking about the North Carolina state supreme court. But the only reason Republicans have a majority in the U.S. House right now is because Republicans won a state supreme court race there in 2020 by 400 one votes, one 100th of one percent of all the votes cast in the state. But that put in place achieved justice who drove the

jury mandering that gave the national Republicans their house majority at this moment. And there's a supreme court race there this November and need it all. It's up for reelection. If she wins, they could win a majority. Democrats could win a majority by 2028. And that could lead to the de-jerry mandering of that state. And, you know, affect the future of American democracy. And those are the kinds of things that state parties specialize in. And supporting state parties

to do that kind of work has a huge effect. I, you know, I'm partial to my own state of Wisconsin, which we can all agree is the best state. But it's also a place where our state party has been deeply involved in state legislative races, mayoral races, states supreme court elections this fall. We have a chance to win both chambers of the state legislature. And across the country, most people, I, I regret to admit, are not thinking about the Wisconsin state legislative battle

of 2026. But that fight could dictate or prove Wisconsin before 2028. We were the closest state in the country to having the election overturned after 2020. We know Trump is going to try to pull something next time he is in danger of losing power. You, you locked down democracy at the

“state level, or rather unreg democracy at the state level. That is the best way to defend”

national elections going forward. And those are the kinds of races that, you know, have supporting state parties right now. And the DNC is doing a lot of supporting state parties can have a huge effect on. So I, I, I, I look at the, you know, it is very painful to read the stories that are unfolding. Everyone experiences that. I'm sure everyone within the DNC is, you know, not thrilled about those stories and unfolding, but there are giant opportunities that are right

there where a small investment can make a huge out of state's impact because Donald Trump's I have saw on is not on those races, but we can put our eye on the ball and we can win and we can fight. Yeah, I think what I'm most worried about is, like the DNC doesn't play the biggest role in the midterms regardless, right? The other party of committees do and the state parties do. Certainly play a big role in the 2028 race and especially with that Supreme Court decision now,

we'll play a big role because people can donate now much more to the DNC and I can help the campaign directly. And the stories are awful to read, no one wants that. We all want the Democrat party to be successful in the DNC to be successful. I think what strikes me is that because they're coming from inside the DNC and the DNC members, it makes me think that those are people who who also don't want bad press, but at this point like I'd rather talk and have the bad stories

and try to fix the situation than continue to see this unfold. And I just thought today, Rufus Gifford, I'm sure you're not Rufus who finance director of the DNC has been finance director or worked there for eight years, loves the place. You know what I said today that the DNC is

but simply not meeting this critical moment. Do you agree? I am the guy who lost the election

for DNC chair. And I'm the last person you want to be armchair quarterback. I can beat me by organizing me in the DNC race and you know, building trust with voters over years, but the same kind of strategy that he and I both think is really critical to winning elections at every level. So I, you know, I don't want to be in the middle of this. I hear you. Not running for DNC myself, like I, my goal is to spread a message to a much wider number of people about what everyone can do.

I have a chapter in my book about the Democratic Party with the title. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to. Something many, you know, people feel at various moments at all levels. And the argument that I make is that the Democratic Party, however you feel about it, it actually has a door that is wide open, shockingly open. It is easier to join the Democratic Party in whatever state people live in then to join the benevolent order of the Elx or like it

even the old the 19th, 20th century social, civic organizations. There's not some set of boxes that

“you have to check. You can get involved and then you can you can revitalize the party where you”

are. You can turn it into a vessel for organizing and fighting. And I talk to people who are like running for county party chair all across the country who are mad about the way things are going right now. And then they realize, hey, if I get a bunch of people together and we get involved, we can just like take over around here. And then we can start working to flip the city councils and we can win judicial races. We can flip state legislative seats. There are so many blue states

where there are people in offices that are not using them to have the biggest impact that they could. And there are so many places in red states where there's very little Democratic Party organization but you can, if you build enough power, you can push through and you can make huge change. And then in purple states, it is shocking how few votes wind up tipping the entire thing. So, if anyone who's frustrated about the Democratic Party right now becomes the Democratic Party

and build the kind of party that you want to be part of. Like, it is just right there. And it is a it's a vessel for organizing that unlike everything else, it exists everywhere in every county, in every community. And if we can make it stronger and we can make it a body that fights for things

“that benefit everyone, then I think it has a huge change on the whole future of the country.”

Your book is excellent. It is tailor made for our audience. So I hope everyone buys it. Thank you. This is the plan. Give us the cliff note version of what the plan is. Sure. So the plan starts with you, not just you, John, but you, the reader of your listener. And the thing that each of us can do, I have a chapter called "Unleash Your Superpower,"

which is about both the kind of art and science and practice of organizing, of getting people together that do something they wouldn't otherwise do. So I dig into how to have the biggest effect with your, with your volunteer hours. If you can chip in money, the kinds of stuff that makes the biggest difference. And then I map out, drawing on the story of how we unreg your state legislative math and Wisconsin, which is this huge multi-year fight that took a bunch of different offices.

I trace out what we can do nationwide to unreg our system, which right now, pretty clearly, is a system where a handful of far-right billionaires write through rules for everyone else to enrich themselves and all of our expense. So how do we do that? Step one, in 2026, let's absolutely fight for house and senate majorities,

but the states are the most critical battlefield. Because especially if we win,

trifect Democratic trifectas in the battleground states, A, you can, you can pass laws in those states that prevent Trump from being able to steal the 2028 election. Elections are run by the states. So this is, you know, if you have people who refuse to play along with coup attempts, it makes all the difference in the world. You can also defame the electoral college. There's this law called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, which is a long,

nerdy name for an amazing bill that has been passed already in 18 states.

“The Nipfick. Nipfick. That's what I call it. I came up with a way to pronounce the”

unpronounceable acronym. That's great. Because every time I say it, I never said the acronym and I'm always like a national compact, something voter. Nipfick. Rimes with lipstick. Nipfick. We got a spread nipfick across the country. If we, if, if no other thing happens, if we all be able, find a way to stay nipfick, then I will not be satisfied with the impact of the book. But I'll be happy. So I, that is a bill that if we pass it through the states where Democrats

can win trifectas in 2026, you can, you can make it so that whoever wins the National Popular Vote wins the presidential election. Because states decide where they put their electoral college

votes. It is very, very close to actually happening. And basically, so it's like a back door

way of eliminating the electoral college, because the constitution gives states the power, the ultimate power to decide how they assign their electors. So the state legislatures can decide we're going to assign our electors to the winner of the National Popular Vote. And then that way, you can kind of go around the electoral college. That's exactly it. So I was actually talking to Heather Cox Richardson. It read, you know, historian about this. And she was

pointing out to me that originally, overwhelmingly states gave their electoral college votes

starting with Thomas Jefferson and Virginia that if you made his state go for whoever won the

majority, winner take all that that would give them an advantage. So then every state kind of went to

“that system. The only way to get back to a proportional system is if enough states decided to jump”

together. So this is what special about this laws that it only takes effect when enough states have passed the law to choose the next president, which means that, you know, it's not like you're going to throw away your voter to loot your power until the moment when everyone holds hands jumps together. And then all 270 plus electoral college votes of states that have passed this law go to whoever wins the national popular vote. And then it transforms this country. Like we end the era of

swing states and states, every person's ballot counts the same, the fight for voting rights laws in every state suddenly affect the whole national picture. It's, you know, it would be complicated

and messy, but also glorious. And I want it so bad. I love it. I've thought about it for a while now,

and I've been like keeping track of how close we're getting to like the so close. Yeah, we're pretty close now. Are you worried about the legal challenges or that like whether it survives legal challenges, because there's a few, there's a few arguments, legal arguments about like why it might be tricky to pull off. And one of the more practical ones is that like it wouldn't get challenged until like in the midst of an election. So it has provisions in and about like how to be able to

“with throw from and so forth. You know, it's been like scrutinized in a whole bunch of different ways. And I think it's,”

I look legally signed to me. I'm not a lawyer myself. I will say, even if it is completely legally legit, I say that this Supreme Court might find some basis, so it's just strike it down. So that goes to another thing that are you for in the book. There you go. So, you know, step one we've been in the states. We start moving a nipvick through the state through more state legislatures. We need 48 more electoral college votes to be able to put it into effect. So when

trefect is in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, New Hampshire, boom, more than enough like throw college votes. Great. Let's add Alaska while we're at it. Yeah. But then 2028 comes along. And we existentially have to win presidency, house, and U.S. Senate. And I think, ideally, we win a majority of the house delegations in a majority of states, so that if Trump once again tries to mess with the electoral college, if it's still in place in the way that it is

right now, and the election goes to a vote in the house of house delegations that the election's not overturned through another coup attempt, which has close to a majority of house delegations. Far, we are far right now. Right now, we're right now, Republicans have 30 house delegation of minorities. Okay. And we have two elections cycles to be able to change that. And so that is totally doable. And the far, it's not crazy far. It's not crazy. Yeah.

And there are enough states where we where we can absolutely be able to to win. It means organizing in places like Alaska, where Trump won by 14 percentage points, but is now hideously unpopular. And Mary Paltala could win the Senate race. We can win the house race. We can win the governorship there. We could have multi-party coalitions in the legislature. Like Iowa, we could win a majority of the house seats, as well as the governorship. They turn

the general race, the U.S. Senate race. Like there are there are ways that we can flip house delegation majorities. They're also, by the way, make life better for people in those states. And then when U.S. Senate majorities. So big map, big battlefield, lots to do. And my argument to people is work where you are to improve policies, build organized locally. And then choose some places, maybe one place where elections are really close. It could be adopting a house district,

it could be deciding to adopt a state legislative chamber and pour yourself, get a group of friends together, pour yourself into making a difference in that place too. This is vote safe America's adopt a state project. There you go. pioneering on this regard. If you do that for a couple hours a month, then, you know, add up enough months. And you can have a gigantic impact. Especially if you find a way to make it fun with your friends, maybe involving alcohol or some kind of beverage.

Like there's lots of ways to do this. They can feel really good when you win. This is one of the

“reasons I think we have so many volunteers and Wisconsin is we've found way we lean into so many”

different fights. People have the experience of being part of winning something, often something

very close over and over. And it feels incredible to like stay up late, watch their turns

come in and realize that you help make the difference in a nail bite or election that changes everything. So best feeling in the world. Best feeling. If you're a political nerd. Yeah, I mean, if you're not, it'll make it a little bit pretty good. It'll turn you into blood. It's landslides you're great. Like there, love those two. But the like, if we're winning landslides, then our map is not big enough. You know what I mean? Like there's so many places where one more push can get us over the

edge and do those places too. So 28, we win the federal threat factor. We get through whatever cool attempt that is that Donald Trump tries to pull. And we thank goodness that we elected Prodemocracy mayors and governors and attorneys general who fought back against whatever Trump's shenanigans turn out to be. We have a new president, they do an inaugural address, to great speech. They have an even bigger crowd than Trump's 2016 inaugural. We're thrilled.

Nope. And then, and this is a big, and then we have to actually abolish the filibuster and pass fundamental democracy reform to unreg the American system of government. And that

where we need to win to be able to change it. But my argument that all kind of rolls up to the plan

and this is the plan is that we have to add states to the unbalanced the US Senate. We have to reform

“the US Supreme Court. I think term limits is the most interesting option. If the US Supreme Court”

decides that Congress doesn't have the power to do that, then it certainly has the power to expand the number of justices. So there's another option there too. We have to have some combination of a national gerrymandering ban and doubling the size of the House. I'm really interested in proportional representation for US House members with multi-member districts. These are ideas that a lot of people don't know about right now are right about them in the book. There's

like lots of countries that do this in the American history. These things have happened before. But the system right now, where we've got of the voting rights act, where we can have the country completely rigged after each census and even in between the census. So most House districts voters have no real say, where Republicans have a structural advantage in the US Senate plus a filibuster that only blocks things the Democrats might want to do, essentially it allows

tax cuts for rich people and confirmations to Supreme Court justices. And then this imperial presidency chosen through the electoral college that Congress can't act to do anything about because of the filibuster and the courts won't do anything because they have a hammer lock in the US Supreme Court. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work to have a country that has a huge diversity of views in which our structures are built to ratchet things just to the right.

And so what we've experienced this century is more than any other time in American history, a series of change elections, where people are fed up and they vote for change. And when Republicans come, they're like, "Not felt like that." The Republicans scribed it up. And when Democrats come in, a whole bunch of other stuff that they can't pin on, they can't do because the system is set up to block it. The US Supreme Court strikes it down. The Senate filibuster blocks it. And so a lot of

“people feel, and I think rightly, that the economic system is not working for them, that like basic”

things like being able to get healthcare or childcare, they vote for people who say that they're going to deliver it, and then it doesn't come through. And if you ask yourself why that is, it is generally not that Democrats have a failure of nerve to vote for the thing they want. The house passes these things over and over again. It's because we have a system that is rigged against delivering for regular people. And so this is the plan maps up the plan to change that.

In a way that we've changed how the government functions over and over throughout history, and then about a half century ago we stopped the men in the Constitution, we stopped adding states, we stopped changing how, yes, Senator of our elected, we stopped changing the size of the house, we stopped changing the size of the Supreme Court, all those things used to change regularly. And we've been stuck in this kind of failure mode where the change that people are vote for,

organized for a cry out for, never comes. And I think at this time to change the delivery vehicle

for change itself and restore the vision of the best traditions of our country, and the best moments in the, the founding of this country, which is a system of government that actually adapts to be able to respond to the crises and needs of the time, where the, the right of the people, as, you know, as it says in the Declaration of Independence, to make their government actually work,

“is, is made real. So I don't know if people realize or remember, because now it was all of five”

years ago, how close we were in 21 to getting rid of the filibuster to pass the John Lewis voting rights act. Yeah. It was just mentioned in cinema. We're the only Democrats not willing to remove the filibuster. They're both gone. Yep. Cinema was replaced with Gaia Go, who's totally favored that. Yep. So we just need it. We basically need a 51 vote majority, and hopefully if we elect some, some of these new senators in some of these tough states, they'll be

there as well. You bring up the 2030 then becomes a pretty important year, not to get too far however ourselves, but it's part of the plan, because we do all these things in 28. One part of your plan

is to, for Democrats to survive the 2030 backlash. We know there's always a backlash after

it's a trifecta. There was in 2010 that, you know, there could be in 2030 if this all comes to pass. And I wonder what you think about, because you're right, and you have the stat in the book that there've been more sort of change elections, like party switching power in the last however many years, then they'll have been like all throughout history, like last couple decades. Just 2000, we've had more teenagers in the White House, the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate than

any other time in any other time in history. And I wonder, like, is there, sometimes I wonder this, too, is there evidence that delivering actual change, tangible change, that improves people's lives, makes them satisfied enough to not vote for change again, considering that Biden passed quite a bit in his first couple years. He passed the similar checks aside from those. Yeah, the climate investments, everything that was in the the billback that I built, that was more long-term investments.

Do you think that, in addition to those democracy reforms in 28 Democrats need to pass legislation

So, I want to respond kind of at three levels. Sure. All right, level one. At the micro level,

“something that I think people forget and very little discussion of is that when Biden came in,”

the emergency measures to deal with the COVID pandemic, the expanded unemployment insurance, the childcare tax credit, there was a set of things that dramatically increased the kind of disposable

income for, especially, like, the bottom third economically of the country. And it was incredibly

popular at that time. And then it all went away. And so, even though it is true that, like, wages grew from the bottom up in the, in the Biden economy, for a ton of Americans, especially the people who, we were having the toughest luck in the economy, they got a bunch of help and then suddenly the carpet was yanked that from under them. And at the same time as prices were rising. So, their experience was that their wages, their income went down at the same time as prices were going

up. And those are the exact voters who went for a Trump for the first time in either of our lives. And people are earning less than $50,000 a year, voted Republican in the 2024 presidential election. So, I actually think we sort of have a counter example, like we have an example for ourselves of if people are experiencing material pain, then they will vote for change. That part, we know, that part, we know. We kind of saw that. And around the world, in every country, the governing

party line of losing ground in developed democracies in 2024, as I, as I write, and prices, inflation, cost of living was the biggest issue everywhere. But we actually were doing something serious about it, and then we stopped. And that was a, there were some policy design choices in there that I,

“you know, I think we should rethink how we, how we think about that stuff in the future. So, that's”

kind of micro level. The second level is the, I was once talking to an administration official who

said, when you propose a policy, it's popular, when it's being passed, it's unpopular, when it's being implemented, it's unpopular. But when the other side tries to take it away, becomes popular again. And before they say it will occur, for example, right? And, you know, the battle, like a bunch of different policies that have been good for people, have this quality. And to me, the goal of politics, you win in order to be able to, like, pass policies

to make people's lives better. So, it is, you know, it might not be that there's an immediate policy reward, and especially policies that take a while to actually like implement and get them going. It might be that you are kind of creating something that the other side can't take away, that creates an enduring benefit for people. And I think that the ACA is proven to be an enormous help for Democrats. 2018, Republicans try to take it away. It was the number one issue. And once again,

Republicans cutting Medicaid spending that was, you know, expanded through the ACA. It is an explosive issue that helps Democrats right now. So, I do think that there's, even if it takes a couple cycles, I do think there's, like, a pretty clear path that you can draw towards, if you do stuff to help people, then the party that tries to scrap it takes a price. And if we are the party that keeps doing the good things, then the rubble against trying to scrap it have a price.

But the last thing, there's this, the very macro level, this concept in political signs of political orders, which is essentially what's not controversial in a period of time, is the thing that tells you the most about that period. So, after the New Deal, there was Eisenhower came in, and he did not try to rip up the New Deal. The political order for decades was that the New Deal programs and the sort of set of economic guarantees, those were beyond politics.

And we're Reagan, through Reagan, exactly. And then came the New Liberal order, and Reagan, and Reagan, you know, did Union Busting in D. Regulation and a bunch of stuff that is, you know, still raging through American politics. And a lot of that stuff wasn't contested. Both parties were kind of fighting on that terrain. The, the really big goal is to build a new political order.

“And I think what we want is a political order for the future, where which party, you know,”

wins might change hands. But that certain things are actually built in. To me, things that start with, ensuring that nobody is like going broke because they get sick, or nobody is unable to afford a place to live. There's an economic guarantees. And then the second, well, there's three things I want. One is, like, make the economy actually work for working people. And I think Union rights and,

you know, and the way our social insurance program for her to critical elements of that. There's a

bunch of others. The second thing is some rights and freedoms that like need to be guaranteed and protected by the federal government that are absolutely under assault right now. In a way that is, has been, you know, shocking, they're trying to repeal the civil rights movement and, you know, and so much else. And it's like any group that has achieved freedom and equality in this country as being targeted by this administration. And a lot of this stuff was nonpartisan,

low-stake stuff that both parties agreed in at different moments. That there were, you know, bipartisan, majority's, well, the public is still bipartisan, majority for reproductive freedom. There was a period, you remember when Republicans attacked trans people in North Carolina, and it was like a giant upward, this idea that attacking trans people is, is this great popular

about, you know, whether gender identity should be a political battlefield. I'd like to get to a

world where everyone's humanity is something that we can, like a starting point. And the third one

is democracy itself, which is, for most of, you know, there are periods when the fight over this basic question of whether we'll have majority rule in this country isn't really up for grabs every election. And one reason why we keep telling ourselves that the next election is the most important election of our lifetimes is because we keep having this, this, this question of whether it will be the last free election in America ever has. I'd like to get a little bit away from

“the precipice. And that leaves tons of stuff that we can contest. And I think the, the natural”

access that makes sense is the kind of like, what is, you know, this kind of size of government, role of government in public life, there's lots of different issues that divide most Republicans from most Democrats that we can argue over. And I think having competitive pressure pushes both

parties to try to figure out how to govern more effectively. I think like excellence in public

service and government is produced more when there are electoral stakes and you might lose power if you don't do a good job. Yeah. All those things are good. But building a political order where these kind of like, you don't feel as though the ground might crack open beneath you and and swallow that every election's like a mannequin struggle. Yeah, I would like to turn down the stakes a little bit. And, you know, then we can, you can, I don't know if it would be helpful for

the political podcasting business if if fun. Yeah, I'll take the, I'll take this right. Okay, the trick. Speaking of high stakes, I know that you're staying neutral in the primary in Wisconsin in the governor's race until the bitter end. I know you're not neutral in wanting a democratic governor in that state who will be responsible for among other things, certifying the presidential result in 2028. Is that a reason for primary voters in Wisconsin to think about electability

“differently this year than they normally would? I think that Wisconsin voters think about”

electability a lot. We have over and over experienced, you know, what happens when we lose. There's not been good. We've had that Wisconsin, I argue in the book, Wisconsin is like a mini

version of what the country's going through right now because we had our authoritarian breakthrough

came and Scott Walker won in 2010 and then tried to rig our political system and, you know, defund schools and public services and smash unions, all this stuff. The same way Donald Trump has done on a national level now. So we have experienced our own state level, you know, authoritarian moment, the same way lots of states in the south have continued to experience it. And I think there's a big debate about, you know, what is it like to go right now? Who's going to vote? How do you

energize people? And then this like trade off of like what do you get when you win? What is the issue that MHU? All that is like legitimate grounds for having a debate and for for people making the different arguments. Wisconsin has this great tradition I write about in the book is the birthplace of the progressive movement, capital, people, aggressive movement. And one of the reforms of the progressive movement that started in Wisconsin's left-the-nation is

directed primaries to choose your nominee where the people decide who the nominee will be and the party when the Democratic Party was constant, which I used to chair, and I'm a advisor to the new chair, Devin Remarkers, I think doing a killer job, very hard job. One of the party's core commitments in our constitution is that the party itself doesn't put it's time on the scale, even if elected officials and public citizens and groups and unions and everybody does their

different endorsements, the party is neutral in the primary so that voters can decide to they want their nominee to be. And then the party can play a role of saying to everybody, hey, like, even though that was tough, and you know, messaging complicated, we're going to like put that behind us, we're going to unite, and we're going to do everything we can to shoot through

“concrete and win the general election. And that, that is my own role in the spite, and that's what I invite”

everyone to do. There's no confident that no matter who wins the primary, that, I mean, you know all these candidates personally, do you think that all of them, like, could, could definitely beat on Tiffany? I think that there's a path with each of these candidates. And I think that what that path looks like is actually a little different with the different candidates, and they are building the coalitions around them based on their approach to campaigning and their, their arguments

to making the positions that they have and their own stories. And the, the thing that would cause us to lose is if we lose the nerve to say that we can win, if Democrats decide after, that after the primary that, oh, well, I guess we're not going to win, then they will not win. But if they say, you know what, this is a state where over and over 13 times since 2000, we've had elections that come down to 1 percentage point or less. And like donating that extra buck, like knocking on that

extra door, calling that extra friend, could be the thing that tips the entire state. If we bring that kind of will to the race, I think that any of the candidates can beat Tom Tiffany and Wisconsin can be a, a thriving democracy for the future. Last question, what is your thought process like as you consider potentially running in the state that you love in Wisconsin? Uh, well, I love the living shit out of my state. I just think Wisconsin is the greatest state.

just obsession right now is to make sure that Wisconsin not only wins the governorship, but as I

“mentioned, the state legislative chambers. Yeah, remember, and those will come probably down to a”

couple hundred votes in a, in a, in a few different communities around the state. Like it is, it has been the work of years to unreg our state legislative maps to get to this point where we,

we have a shot at winning majorities in both legislative chambers. And next year could be a blooming

of democracy and, and workers rights and, you know, of, of ability of folks to get healthcare

“all this stuff if we can win the trifecta in Wisconsin in the next 99 days. Um, so I'm, I have this book.”

I want to, I want to spread the gospel of like rolling up recently, who's getting involved. I want

to make sure that people see the, the kind of hope that we've experienced in my state by building

this kind of permanent campaign on a year-round basis. I want more places to do that. And then I'm going to just throw myself into, with everything I've got into the fight in my state, and then I'll figure out what's next. Well, I've said this on the pod when you're not here that, um, is a,

“is a Democrat in a citizen. I wanted you to be DNC chair, um, because I think it would have been”

good for the party and good for the country, uh, as your friend, sort of glad you're not. This is such a much off, no matter who has it. But when it comes to running for office in Wisconsin, as a citizen of Democrat and your friend, I, I would love you. I would love to see you, uh, to run one of these days. So I'm, think about it honored by the sense of it. We need more than Whickler in the America, so let's, let's zero in and what all of us can do. Yeah, right now. That is,

that is, that is my message. That is, is land land. This is the plan. He's on message. That's our show for today. Thanks to Ben Wicker for coming on. Dan and I will be back with a new episode on Friday. Pods of America is a cricket media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts and Ferris Safari with Reed-Chirlin, Elijah Cone and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hefcoat, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis,

Carol Pelevi, David Toll's Mia Kalman Ryan Young and Naomi Single. Our staff is probably unionized with the writer's guild of America East.