What Makes A Great Cast?

This weekend up first, we're tracking the escalating war in Iran, rising oil prices, and

a global economy on edge. As the conflict spills beyond Iran, our host lay the fottles on the ground, in Iraq.

“Listen each morning for three stories you need to start your day, on up first, on the”

NPR app, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you're deciding whether to see a movie, one of the questions you might ask is pretty simple. Who's in it? That's because we all know that one of the things that separates a good movie from

a great movie, or even a good movie from a bad movie, is casting. This year for the first time, there's an Oscar being awarded for casting. That got us thinking. What makes a great cast, anyway, how can talent, skill, charisma, chemistry, and everything else, and actor brings to the table make a movie memorable.

I'm Stephen Thompson. And I'm Linda Holmes. Today, we're talking about what makes a great cast on pop culture happier from NPR. Joining us today are our co-hosts, Glenn Weldon, hello Glenn. Gotta hope I get it.

How many people does he need? Oh Glenn. Hi, Shiharis. So as we mentioned up top, there is finally a casting Oscar this year, it is about time. There have been casting Emmys for quite a while, so the Oscars are playing catch-up.

If you haven't seen the list, the nominated casting directors are Nina Gold for Hamnet, Jennifer Venditti for Marty Supreme, Cassandra Coolakundas for one battle after another, Gabrielle Dominguez for the Secret Agent and Francine Maesler for Centers. And maybe we will touch on some of those, but what we're really talking about today is casting in general, and what makes a great cast work.

It's a very specific skill, finding talent, not just finding the person who's going to be great, but finding the person who matches what the director wants. So Stephen, I'm going to start with you what do you think of when you think about a great cast?

“Well, I think the key to a great cast is balance, a mix of known quantities and discoveries,”

powerful lead performances, memorable faces on the margins, and hopefully some discoveries

along the way. I think when we talk about big name stars in movies, the casting part of the equation often for me boils down to whether they're the right big name for the stars, not just whether they're bankable, but whether they're bringing exactly the right energy to go with the film and question.

If it's one of those movies where like everybody is somebody, are all those famous faces a distraction, are they detracting instead of adding? And ultimately, as I kind of set up front, I want a sense of discovery. I want at some point to be like, who is that? Or even better in a way, a sense of rediscovery, like I haven't seen that person in forever.

You thought of somebody I loved and had forgotten about. I love a comeback and some of my favorite casting involves kind of bringing back somebody I miss. And ideally, you want even the bit players to bring a lot of presence. And if you look at the films that are nominated for best casting this year, that's

one thing I think that really jumps out is you'll just see these faces and be like, "Who's that guy? Who's she?" So for me, it's like anything. It's a mix of many, many, many different factors, all of which have to work in concert.

Yeah. That makes sense to me. That'll make sense to me. All right. I use to have about you, great cast.

Where did your mind go? Well, I mean, I think I echo so much of what Stephen said and also, you know, it listens to the show, you know, that sometimes we love a good text out of me. And while trying to wrap my head around this, I did kind of come up with my own sort of categorizations for the things that I look for and things that apply.

And I think a lot of these overlap in many ways, but, you know, I think of first, like,

the raw cast, the ones where you have people who have no sort of experience whatsoever

“acting and you have to, like, go off of vibes, go off of how they work with the material,”

you have no pre-existing knowledge of how they might be in front of a camera. So I think of something like, of course, the classic bicycle thieves, the Victoria de Sica film, or Ken Jareen from Sean Baker. And then, like, then there are the films that are more, I think, they are good at showcasing a community, like an insular group of people, and every single person feels real has their

own distinct character, but they mesh well together. So something like good fellows, or do the right thing. And then, like, the last one I'll point out before we go deeper is, like, chemistry. And when I say chemistry, I mean, like, these people, they play well together, whether romantically, or there's nothing I hate more than a movie where you don't believe that

these people would actually be friends. Sure. And a movie does a really good job of casting people who seem believable as a group of friends, or that's friends.

are the things that I really look for when I'm thinking about great cast.

“And yeah, it's all about, like, jelly and believability, I think.”

Yeah, that makes sense to me, too. All right, Glenn. I don't know. I should jump down to the taxonomy. I feel like maybe you'll be pre-empted you.

What have you got? Man, I tried. I really tried because I am me. I tried to come up with a taxonomy because for somebody who takes comfort in objective truths and taxonomy is in an overall lack of squishiness, I mean, casting is squishy.

It's chemistry. It's vibes. Right?

I guess what I'm looking for is the feeling that you can imagine that particular role

being played by anyone else, that there's something definitive. We talk about owning a role. That's what we're talking about. Something unique. They make choices that no other actor would think to make.

Not that they couldn't, because it's not really about skill set. I don't really believe that casting is about the actor's skill. I think it's about their fit. And if they're making those choices, not in the interest of showing us, but in the interest of nailing down the specifics of that character.

Hitting notes that other actors wouldn't, I think, about the 1950 film all about Eve, because I'm a middle-aged, very basic, gay man. That stars Betty Davis and Baxter.

George Sanders, Celeste, home, Marilyn Monroe, and it's going to say it's like a jenga tower.

You pull any piece away. The whole thing collapses, but that's famously not how jenga works.

“You have failed at jenga, if that's how I failed at jenga.”

So it's like a room with like five load-bearing walls, right? And the energy that Anne Baxter gives and that thing is the on-genu is feeding the energy that Betty Davis is as the actress of a certain age and makes her Betty Davis a year, right? And then the specific dynamic between the two of them, you know, George Sanders, who's like this critic, who is like his snide, and if you're me, you grow up wanting to be George

Sanders, wanting to be at a secret. He is reacting to that specific dynamic. I think it's about specificity. Yeah. I mean, the thing that I love about this, and I agree with what all of you have already

said, but the thing I love about this is that I find casting such a fascinating field because I don't really understand the skill of it. And that's actually true with a lot of things. I have to listen to people talk about how they do it in order to really understand how it's done.

Do you talked about fits, Glenn, and I think it's not just fit in the sense of the person fits the part. Also that what the casting directors doing a lot of the time is funnling people to the director. So it's a balance, like what you, who you as the casting director think would be great, but also who does the director want?

And what is the director's vision? And they're interesting stories that kind of casting directors, they can't like boss around the director, but they can kind of continue to nudge and nudge and try to get the person there in sort of preparation for this conversation as well as a conversation that Glenn and I had on all things considered.

I watched a couple of interviews with casting directors, one of whom is this woman named Marsha Ross, who has a YouTube video about what really goes into casting. Now she's the woman who, among other things, cast both clueless and ten things I hate about you. And she brings in for both of those movies, these giant binders.

And I have no idea whether casting directors would still have these giant paper binders or not, but she has these giant paper binders and she goes through and she actually lets you sort of spy on notes that she made at the time, or at least the notes that the casting people made at the time. So it'll be like Matt Damon, they were interested in for Josh in clueless, but her conversations

about like how they cast and spying on these little lists, it was fascinating to me because

“that whole process, I think is so interesting because some of these folks, and this is”

why I inevitably bring up my favorite casting director to know as a fan girl who is Allison Jones. There we go. Oh, woman who cast, we've been talking mostly about film, but she cast a lot of that kind of universe of the office in Parks and Rack and the good place, a bunch of the Paul

Feag stuff spy and the heat and bridesmaids, I think spies brilliantly cast movie, but also like a bunch of Judd Apatiles stuff, Freaks and Geeks, which is also Paul Feagajason. One of the most famously well-cast TV shows in history, absolutely super bad, knocked up the 40-year-old version, right, Borat, which I didn't know, and this is my favorite list is kind of these, she also cast Barbie and booksmart and eighth grade and Lady Bird

and last year, weapons, you know, has a great cast, and that is a really well-cast movie. And so when you look at that, it's like, how influential is somebody like that, who has credits, and like, I didn't even mention, like, work on a rest of the development, the career enthusiasm, fresh prints of Beller, like, imagine anybody who has significant creative credits and all of those different things, that's astonishing to me.

famous is kind of weird. Yeah.

Yeah, she's basically at the top of a pyramid scheme of fame, because you think about

how many shows were influenced by those shows, how many shows were cast, because those people were on the shows that she cast, I mean, that's seriously one of the most influential people in Hollywood. Yeah. And the relationship between cast and directors and the director, I mean, it's a relationship

“with it, and you have to have incredible clear communication.”

But at the end of the day, the casting director casts the net, the director cooks the fish. And good. Good. I like it. You also have to deal with all the different directors that you're dealing with,

all the different bags of BS, because some directors are going to be wanting to be in on the conversation from the jumps, and kind of parachute into the end. I just finished this book about Twin Peaks, called The Place Both Wonderful and Strange, and David Lynch's longtime casting director Joanna Ray said she'd had her eyes on these two actors for the teenagers in the show, James Marshall and Sheryl and Fen who played James

and Audrey. She had her eye on these two for years and years and years, but the first time she called them in, they were terrible, in her words they were hopeless, but she kept calling them back because she saw something in them, a phrase that comes up and casting a bunch and a bunch. And then finally, they were ready.

And then for Twin Peaks, the return, which featured a lot of new characters, which need a lot of new actors, Lynch didn't want to meet any of the actors. So he wanted her to talk to them on tape, and they'd look at the tapes.

And she said that when she's casting, she never really wants to have actors read lines,

which is a buck wild, but she doesn't trust it because they're just going to give me the model, they've done it a thousand times. So what she did for that particular project was she set them down, and she said, "Talk to me about something in your life that's interesting, that's not the industry." And look, I know a lot of actors, I've dated some actors, and I know that many of them

would be like, "Oh, I get to talk about me." But I also know that there'd be some who would hate that because they go into acting, not to hide, but they go into acting to be somebody else.

“So the idea that that's what that crucial decision can be made up, but that's a thing,”

a different casting directors have different, you know, methods, different directors have different methods. I think part of the reason why it's taken so long for their even to be a category for this is because, for all of that, and yes, I think the fish and the cooking, that's great metaphorical in.

But there's still so much variability in terms of what happens, and if you think about all the profiles you read of how movies were made, and like the 20th anniversary of whatever movie, and it's like we're talking about how we cut. How often is the casting director actually ever mentioned? Yeah.

It's often elided, it's often sort of just implied, but not explicitly stated.

It's almost always like, well, the director, like this person or whatever, and yeah,

that's partially by design. I want to recommend the documentary casting by, which came out in 2012. Profiles of a few different casting directors, but the one that's mainly focused on is Mary Andority, who cast Midnight Cowboy, Lee the Leppon Greece, but it features an interview with Taylor Hackford, who is very much like directors or the ones who actually deserve

to be called directors. Like it should not be casting directors, and they don't actually do that.

“And it's just like, oh, my goodness, this is what they're up against, and I think because”

of both the variability, all the different ways that people do get cast, I don't think it's just casting directors directly, but that's the case with all movies, right? It's like, every part is variable, and the director, yes, he's there, the director, who are, it's a director, but there's all these other moving parts. Yeah.

It's nice that we're finally kind of trying to drill down on this. But it still feels very nebulous in a way. And I think that's a good time to kind of bring up a couple of the reservations that I have about having an Oscar for casting, which I'm totally in favor of, but my fear is one that it's going to turn into a proxy for best picture, that people are just going to check

the box of the movie they like best, or the acting they like best, and not necessarily think about the craft of casting, but I also wonder about the casting Oscar as essentially standing in front kind of that old Roger Ebert line about how best actors like most acting is like most casting, looking at the field of nominated casting this year, one of those nominated films is Marty Supreme, and if you look at the cast of Marty Supreme, it is

full of kind of flashy stunt casting. It's a lot of like, here's Tyler the Creator, here's Pendulette, here's you know, here's several basketball players. Shark gang guys. Here's Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank, they found a way to really play against type and have him play a huge jerk. Yeah, yeah. Really stretching his abilities there. I do think it's a very well cast movie,

and it has a lot of kind of interesting faces popping up all the time, but that is a very flashily cast movie, compared to movies where the casting may be perfect, but so subtle that

gives me some comfort, right? The nominees work chosen by the casting directors branch, right?

So these nominees work chosen by people who do know and care what good casting is.

“But I mean, I agree with you. I think there's some possibility that that will happen”

that people pick the movie they like the best. I think sometimes there's a sense that that happens with certain categories like editing that like, people don't necessarily have not because they're not important. Do not misunderstand me. But because not everybody who votes has a like clear picture of exactly what that skill is. And I look at those nominees, and they are some of the ones I thought work cast really well. Certainly centers, I think, was, I think Marty

Supreme's an interesting case. You're sort of into what the safety thing is about casting or you're not, right?

I really liked Kevin Garnat and uncut gems didn't care that much for Kevin O'Leary in this.

Some like, I split my Kevin's a little bit like offbeat casting. Yeah. Like, I look at this list of nominees, and I'm like, yeah, this is a, this is a pretty respectable set of nominees. I love that, I mean, listen, centers was nominated for everything.

“It was eligible, and I believe. I certainly think it's very much deserving of this. It's”

probably what I would vote for. No. And, and for a film like centers, it fits. Right. So part of this is also, and this is also the director who is responsible for like controlling the tone and controlling the performances. But Michael B. Jordan gets a chance to do his thing. Delroy Lindo gets a chance to do his thing. But it also, you allow one me Masako and Jack O'Connell in smaller parts to make their own unique impressions. I would say an Emerald Finals, while they're in heights,

Alice and Oliver is Isabella. She comes in with this comic performance. It doesn't quite steal the film. It comes close. But it doesn't quite steal the film. It's just a different energy. Everybody understands the assignment. They bring their own stuff at the table. They bring different things. But it feels like all of a piece. But sometimes there is such a thing as scene stealing. Right. So Andrew Scott in as Moriarty in Sherlock was a revelation, right? And you were like,

oh, Moriarty is great. Who's this guy? Right. Who's Andrew Scott? And you know, notice Philip Seymour Hoffman in the talented Mr. Ripley. I notice Steven Stucker as Johnny in airplane because you can't not. You notice Julian Moore in Vania 42nd Street, Nicholas Cage in raising Arizona.

Here's a guy who makes those big choices. Always owns the part. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.

And that's, you know, you cast Nicholas Coach because you want to roll those dice. Well, one of the examples that I kind of wanted to bring forth is jumping off of that, which is what of my taxonomy? Tears is community. And for me, one of the movies that does that's so great is double in a blue dress. The Carl Franklin film that's the adaptation of Walter Mosley's novel. And you have done so. Pete Denzel, Washington. And then you have all of these other characters.

And you have Jennifer Beals playing this, you know, this, well, okay, if you haven't seen the movie, see it. It's been 30 plus years. But like, it's revealed that she is a woman who is passing for white, but she's actually biracial. And to cast Jennifer Beals, who is probably in her obituary, is going to be best known for flash chance. Let's, let's be real. But like, she is a black biracial woman. Just the act of casting her in that and sort of her being able to access that kind of character

and what that might mean in the 1940s. And then you have, of course, Don Sheedle as Mouse. And John Sheedle is the, he comes in. He's not in all that much of the movie. I've rewatched it recently. And I forgot like, oh, he doesn't come in until like very much well into this movie. He comes in. He does this thing. And he leaves. And he practically steals that movie from Denzel, Washington. But it's those little things where you have all these different people in Lisa Nicole Carson,

as Coretta. Oh, I love her. All of these different characters who feel so full and realized. And they may not have that much screen time, but they are there. And when it's while working in concerts together, I think it's just such a lovely thing. And the casting director on double of Bluegrass was Victoria Thomas, a black woman, who also did Django and Sheen. She's done the last of us, Edward Scissor. Like, it's one of those things where you don't necessarily have a genre.

You do everything, which I think is is a little bit different from other fields in this, like,

“you don't specialize. You can do everything. You have to do everything. And it feels like it's a”

field that is more dependent on memory than almost any other. And like remembering ineffable qualities about somebody you met in passing in a formal kind of cattle call setting. And it's like all three years ago, I saw somebody who had a soulful quality that wasn't quite right for the character. And then all of a sudden, the whole course of film and TV history changes. People get discovered that way all the time. And it really is a remarkable field that has such extraordinary

the conversation that we've had. And with the nominees this year for the Oscar, which is that

“this is a trade in which a lot of the really well-established people are women. And, you know,”

we talked about Alison Jones, we talked about Marsh Ross. And there are these two women who

who were a business partners named Jane Jenkins and Janet Hirschensen, who cast most of the

Rob Reiner, Ron Howard, Chris Columbus movies of the '80s and the '90s. So that's the people who, you know, that they were involved in the original, like the beginning of the Harry Potter movies,

home alone, a few good men stand by me. Like, a lot of the giants in this particular field are

“women. I saw a kind of a, I think, a very informal estimate of like 70, 75% something like that.”

I don't want to speculate about why, because that gets very gender-essentialist and weird. But I do think it's interesting. And when you talk about how it's not necessarily something that is recognized and talked about all the time, I got to think it's at least like maybe somewhat relevant

“but a lot of them are women. Yeah, if they're a way more men doing this, they would have had”

an award at least 40 years ago. Let's be honest. Well, we want to know what you think makes a good cast. Find us at Facebook.com/PCHH. That brings us to the end of our show, Glenn Weldon, Aisha Harris, Steven Thompson. Thank you so much for being here. If I were casting a show to do for 16 years, these are the people I would cast today. To essentially what we did. Thank you. Yes, that's it. Thank you. Thank you. This episode was produced by Liz Metzker and might

cast if an edited by our showrunner Jessica Ritty. Hello, come in of course, provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to pop culture happy hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes and we will see you all next time.