Scott Galloway On Money, Happiness, And The Search For Enough

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What are we doing today, Ed? We got a very special episode today, Scott. And I'm going to launch us right into it here. This show is all about money. We talk about it every day.

We think about it all day long, Scott, especially. And the markets at their core are about the relentless pursuit of money. But by the time this episode as Scott and I will be coming back from vacation. So before we head out, we are pausing to think about what this money actually does for

“us, how does our relationship to money change over time and will it ever be enough?”

Maybe a bit more of a personal episode, Scott. We haven't done one of these in a while, more of a money therapy episode. Does that all sound good to you? Yeah, that sounds really good. Permission to ask personal questions.

Well, you know, I don't feel comfortable talking about myself, but I'll try and put that aside. Let's roll. Well, we're going to start with a clip that went viral on Twitter, a clip of you.

And you went on this show my first million, which is a great podcast, Sam Parench, Alan

Purry. And they asked you about your relationship with money and this idea of is it ever enough? And how much do you need actually to be happy to feel economically secure? And this was your response that got a lot of support, but also a lot of hate pissed a lot of people off.

I've been very open about this.

“I think not talking about your money is an attempt to keep middle and lower and come”

homestown. Rich people talk about money to each other all the time. I spent three to four hundred thousand dollars a month, so if you take that a five million times 25, I need 125 million to be economically secure. And by the way, when I was younger, I thought if I ever have a million dollars I'm done,

I used to think like, in my 20s, if I could ever save a million dollars, I'm done.

I'm going to start writing scripts for Tom Cruise Films and just do whatever I want. So that was the clip that went viral. People were shocked to hear about your ban. What do you think about that statement, and how do you think about the question of, is this

So I have been on Twitter in four years, but I'm going to guess if it was about me on Twitter,

“people were just super supportive and really think I'm a great guy.”

Some car swissers. Some cars swiss. Caracol me over the weekend and it showed me someone that said something mean about me on Twitter. And I'm like, I have been on Twitter in four years and she's like, that's probably a good

idea. My understanding is I just get mauled on Twitter. Anyways, um, by the way, for access to life hack, the most secretive thing you can do for your mental health is to not go on Twitter, um, look, I grew up without a lot of money. The biggest source of stress in my life wasn't that my dad wasn't around.

Isn't that my mom, you know, the biggest source of stress in my life was easy. When my mom got upset, it was just me and her and the household and there was no, we were all upset. The household came down.

And the biggest source of stress in our life was not that we were poor, but money was

an issue. It made, it made regular things harder. I described my household growing up, affectionately as upper lower middle class. My mom was a secretary. We were never hungry.

It wasn't a sob story. I actually think it was easier to be in our economic way, class back then than it is now. I went to a decent school. I went to public schools all the way through graduate school. We took vacations every once in a while, you know, my mom had a decent car and had a nice

car, but a decent car. So I, you know, it's not a sob story, but the biggest source of stress in my life until even through college was money. I went to college every summer, I had to make and save $3,000 or I wasn't a rolling again.

I couldn't return to the fall.

And it was just quite frankly, it was just stressful. And so, and also, I discovered, you know, I thought early on, I want to take care of my mom and be, I want to be more attractive to women.

“And that's, I think, a natural inclination, a lot of young men feel.”

They have very paternal protective feelings about the woman who raised them. I wanted to take care of my mom, by this time my mom had been diagnosed with cancer several times and couldn't work, and money wasn't an issue. And so I was very motivated by money. And then when I got to a certain point, and I think a lot about money and happiness, I

recognized in 2017 when I sold L2, and I'm five most metrics I was done. I think I told you this, I was planning to raise more capital because I wanted to be a billionaire. Scott Gallaudet, Billionaire, just has a really nice sound to it, and I read a lot about happiness and Daniel Comman, one minor look for role models, has done a great work on the

relationship in between money and happiness. And to summarize, there is a correlation between money and happiness, but only to a certain point, and then it tops out. And I had something that happens to a lot of men in the early 50s, and that is a couple of my friends died that shouldn't have.

And that is these genetic, these weird genetic time bombs go off, and people who are otherwise healthy have something that just takes them down. One, it was this very aggressive form of leukemia. The other was pancreatic cancer. And these were two guys that you just wouldn't have ever guessed would be sick.

They were in shape, young guys with good nutrition. Anyway, so that gave me pause, and I thought, all right, I have enough money to live well. So I'm going to stop. I'm going to try and get off this economic hamster wheel. I've been able to do that somewhat.

I can only modulate it, not get rid of it, because I still have real financial insecurities. But what I decided to do was, I was going to do one or two things with any incremental income above my number, in which I hit in 2017. I was either going to spend it.

“I think in a capitalist society, you can do amazing things.”

Another life hack is spend money on experiences, not things. People overestimate. The happiness they're going to get from things, and underestimate the happiness they're going to get from experiences. I don't own a car.

I have a couple of panorise, but I don't spend a lot of money on clothes. So I really don't spend that much money on things. I spend a shit ton of money on experiences. So of that, $3,400,000 a month I spend, 150 of it is on a private plane, which gives me the ability to do things on a moment's notice, and travel comfortably, and professionally

do things that give me a lot of leverage, lowers my anxiety on a day when I'm having dinner with Mike. I realize this is a story of privilege, but I spend a shit ton of money, and I also each year give away. I try and give away as much as I've spent, not because I think of myself as a specialist

philanthropic, but I get a lot of psychic reward from it. It makes me feel strong. It makes me feel masculine. I feel like I'm nodding to many of the people and things that help me get where I am, whether it's the University of California, whether it's investing in programs for immigrants, or

financially. It just makes me feel good, but I have no desire to build a dynasty and pass on hundreds

I want to have a great time with my friends and family. I'm going to feel like I'm giving back to society, and I'm very open about the amount of money I spend. And I do think there's something, I think hoarding is a virus. I think above a certain level, and again, I recognize this isn't that, isn't that a great

problem? Isn't it nice to be you, Scott? But I am in this position, and in my attitude is I'm either going to put the money back into the economy and I have a shit ton of fun doing it, or I'm going to give it away, I think it's ridiculous that people aggregate billions of dollars in wealth.

I don't think you're adding any value, I don't think your kids are not going to be any

happier if they inherit $3 million versus $3 billion.

You want, I think there is something to the fact that if you work hard, you want your kids to be able to afford a house and health care, I get it. I know a lot of very rich kids, I don't think they're any less happy than non rich kids, but I don't think they're any happier. So I'm very much on board with spending a shit ton of money, and I'm very open about

it, and also giving a lot of money away.

“But I think at a certain point, you need to try and get off that money, hamster wheel,”

and ask yourself, all right, money helps me write chapters, new chapters, it helps current chapters burn brighter, but it's not your story. And you need to find another sense of purpose, but I still struggle, I still have money anxiety, and it's increased recently, but I've kind of been different to mention. But my attitude is if you're blessed with the right timing, the right skills, and growing

up in a place like America that gave disproportionate advantage to people who look smart and felt like me, you have one, the opportunity to do amazing things and to the obligation to try and invest in things that ensure those same ladders are present for other people.

But I think a lot about money, I hate it when people, when these fucking VC say, oh, I never

really thought about money, I just thought about outcome, those guys are obsessed with money, and it's been, it's been a source of, I don't want to call it trauma, but I have body dysmorphia, I'm constantly working out, and when I look in the mirror, I'm 6,2,1,90. When I look in the mirror, I think I look amaciated, because growing up I was so painfully thin that it kind of traumatized me, it made me feel less attractive, less weak, more vulnerable.

So now I can never be strong enough for big enough. And I look in the mirror and think, okay, I look terrible in skinny and scrawny. And I know, and actually, that's not the case, but I have that trauma and it still impacts me now. I had, I don't want to call it trauma, but a lot of the challenges a lot of American

households face around money, so when I got to having money, I, I really liked it and I kept going and, and, and, and I still keep going, but I have tried to modulate it by either spending it, putting back into the economy and enjoying it, or giving it away. Anyways, well, sounding defensive. I think the, something that people think when they, when they, something that people

thought when they saw that clip, and they heard how much you, you're spending a month, the reaction is you're not off the hamster wheel, the reaction is you are spending the more wealth you have accumulated, the more you have worked yourself in to spending.

“And I'd be curious to hear if that's how you feel about it because I think, I mean, when”

you, I mean, just reacting to that clip, it's like, oh, wow, I guess you could spend money on, on private travel because I guess, I guess that is great. I guess that is nice. And it starts getting you into a space where you kind of like, what other things are there out there, and how else can I make my life better, and what, what, what, what more

things and what more comfort can, can, can money buy. And so how do you think about it from that perspective? Because I think a lot of people would, based on that clip, assume that you have not gotten off the hamster wheel, or maybe that's what you're saying. I think it's an accurate, I think it's, I think everyone has a certain level of dysfunction

in addiction. Yeah.

I have a lot of friends who are amazing friends, really good professionally, good

with money, good, good sons, and they pour all of their bad judgment into the relationships. They just pick the worst fucking partners, I'm like, how could someone so smart be so fucking stupid, I know people have amazing friendships, smart, well, red, great relationship with their spouse, such good judgment, and professionally they're just a fucking basket case.

I think everybody has a certain amount of dysfunction in poor judgment. It's where you put it. And also everyone has a certain amount of addiction. I don't care if you're addicted to the affirmation of others, to trans fats, to sugar, to cocaine, or whatever it is.

“I think addiction is a function of very healthy instincts, right?”

You get addicted to eating too much because for most of our species time on this planet.

going to find food again, especially sugary salty or fatty food.

“So I think we all have a certain level of addiction.”

It's just, it might be online shopping, whatever it is. I try to be very cognizant of my addiction. I have two addictions, you know, be curious to put it back to you. One, I'm addicted to the affirmation of others. And I think that's natural, if, until about a hundred years ago, if you were shamed and

expunged or expelled from the community within three days, you were going to starve or beaten by a bear.

So fear of shaming is really, really powerful.

So when I get shamed or shit posted online, you spot me a lot. But I still put out tweets and content hoping that strangers will like me. And that's kind of pathetic at the age of 61. I'd like to think a lot of the content I put out there. I'm doing for the right reasons.

So I can advance the conversation and help others. But honestly, a lot of it is, oh my, my audience and followers are just going to love this and think I'm a neat guy, right? Or I put out pictures of me and my kids because I know my kids are much better looking and keeping them here or me and my dogs.

And I think it makes me more likable. I want to be liked by strangers, which is fucking pathetic. But I understand why I have that need, why I have that addiction. And sometimes it takes me out of my head, out of my presence with the people I love, which is the definition of addiction.

And that is, you continue to engage in something despite it having negative ramifications on the rest of your life.

My second addiction is money.

You know, you know this at Prop G, I sit down with the entire team and I take them through financials with Katherine. I'm trying to, I'm trying to create enterprise value, I want to have another exit. Some of it is for the right reasons.

“I think money is a fantastic arbiter of success and keeps you honest in a business.”

I also, and I really mean this. I want you and the other 27 people working at Prop G. I want you, I want you guys to be on a path or develop economic security faster than your parents. I think that's a, I have those paternal instincts, especially as I get older.

But also a lot of it is I want more money and I might give it away. I probably will give it away, but I still, I'm on the hamster wheel. I can't get off of it. Now what helps is that the hamster wheel is a lot more fun for me now. I'm pretty much doing exactly what I want to be doing.

That was not true when I was your age. I hated investment banking, starting companies in the internet was really stressful. But I went for it because I thought this is the fastest path to economic security.

I would say it cost me my first marriage and my hair and it was worth it.

But I worked around the clock. I did have some fun, but I really sacrificed a lot because for me, the goal was economic security. I didn't want to save the whales. I didn't want to be a good person, I didn't want to be a good husband.

I wanted to get to economic security so I could take care of my mom and be more interesting to other dudes and more attractive to strange women. And those, those flames still burn. I modulated them, I think I've been able to put them in an engine that creates forward progress for people around me and I'm trying to be more civic minded now with my, with

my economic security. But I am still, I have not fully stepped off that hamster wheel. I'd be curious, no, A, do you feel like you're on that hamster wheel? You're at the front end. You're on the front end, and what is the relationship you feel you have with money?

What about it? And what do you perceive is unhealthy? Yeah, I think I'm definitely on the hamster wheel, but part of me wants that because I think that it's motivating. Like I know that it would be a financially responsible decision to care a lot about money

right now and to care about my professional success. So I'm, I'm feel addicted to growing this thing, I feel addicted to making more money, I feel addicted to achieving more success.

“And part of me is okay with that because I'm like, yeah, that's what I should be doing.”

That's maybe it's an unhealthy addiction, but also maybe it's healthy because ultimately it's going to lead you to good places. It's going to increase the level of freedom in my life. It's going to increase my outcomes. It's going to increase my level of stability and security.

So I think I'm at a place where I'm kind of leaning into it. Like I don't want it to make my life miserable. And then sometimes I'll have days where I'm like, I'm actually not having a good time right now. So I'm not doing things right clearly.

And so it's something I try to keep track of. Like if I'm not having a base level of fun that I'm not, I'm technically not living my life right. I should probably adjust something in some capacity. And I think that's something that we discussed the other week.

I think that's the importance of vacations as well. And it's why I think it's so important to really try to make sure that you get the very, very best out of your vacations and that you take them. I think all of that stuff is important.

is you technically don't really need to make money anymore. Like you're there. And so there is a question of what are you actually working, like what's the point of working at this point? What are you working for?

And maybe it's related to the fact, the thing that you said earlier, which is that if you have this feeling that you're on the hamster wheel,

then maybe you actually just never get off.

Maybe that's hard-wired into the way that you think about the world

“and you feel that you need to keep doing it.”

But I'd be curious to hear it on your end. Why continue to work hard? So the number one objective for the first 50 plus years of my life was money. First and foremost, best at everything. Not to try and find a rewarding career or find my passion.

It was, how do I take care of my mom? How do I become more interesting and more attractive and have more opportunities? And self-worth is a man which I too, too tightly conflated with economic viability. That has changed for me in the last 10, 15 years. Deciding to teach was not an economic decision.

I joined the faculty of NYU 24 years ago because I thought, "I'd be good at this and I would really enjoy it." And I made $12,000 my first year. And for most of my life, I haven't had economic security. Even when I started teaching, I just got in divorce.

I didn't have much money, I wasn't economically secure. And my new priority is I want to lead a rewarding life and have purpose. And what is that purpose? I want to have a positive influence on the dialogue around young men. I want to help be part of the bleach that stains from the American experience or bleach

as from the American experience, the stain that is Donald Trump and corruption. And what I believe is a lack of democracy, a lack of empathy, a disregard for the greatest innovation in history, the middle class. And if that sounds partisan, I am a partisan.

“And I want to highlight what I think are really important issues that are a positive”

for society with the skills I have. I think I'm not a humble person, I think I'm remarkably talented. But I want to apply those talents to relevance in promoting a healthy dialogue, the results and positive change. And money is still an objective, but it's now secondary.

And what I really enjoy making a lot of money, I enjoy spending it, I also enjoy and I'm virtually signaling right now. And no one feels this way. I try and overpay everyone in property media. When I was your age, I was trying to figure out how to pay people the least I could without

them leaving, because I wanted to create shareholder value that I could then sell and make a lot of money. Now I really enjoy, but no one, no one ever believes or have accommodated. But in general, I try to pay people 50% more than their market, at least for the position. And I try to, I'm now very focused on being relevant.

I'm very focused on my own mortality and trying to do positive things. My purpose right now, more than anything that I've identified.

“This goes to the question of how do you find purpose?”

Money has freed me up from the anxiety of friction that gets no way the most important

thing. And that is really deep in loving relationships with friends and family. And then where I found my purpose was people think, okay, am I getting enough out of this relationship with this thing? That's how I approach stuff.

Am I getting more than I'm getting, or getting more than I'm giving? Otherwise, I'm not going to do it. But I realize is that where you find purpose as you wake up one day and say, I've invested so much in this, I'll never get a return on it. But I still find meaning in it, which means you found your purpose.

The most loyal Americans and patriotic Americans are those that have invested the most specifically veterans. And what they realize is that feels gives them a sense of purpose. My purpose is simple.

I woke up one day and realized, I am never going to get anything resembling a positive ROI

on the investment emotional, financial, and psychological investment I've made in my sons. They're just never going to be up to am worried about me. I don't think. There's no way they're ever going to spend as much on my senior home, no matter how nice it is that I've spent on them.

And it's given me a sense of purpose. I spent a lot of time thinking about how I create loving patriotic young men. And you know, I sit down with them a lot, I talk to them a lot, I try and be, it's turned me into a better man. I think I'm better to the mother, I try to model good behavior, and I have found my purpose.

And quite frankly, I'm a little freaked out right now, because I'm dropping my oldest

I'm like clinging to my 15-year-old, I'm basically following or following them around right now, because I was when I'm freaked out that he's gone. And I feel like I'm like losing a sense of purpose. But the addiction of money and it being my number one objective, it has squarely become number two or number three.

It's still on my mind a lot.

“I think it's a great scorekeeper for operating a healthy company.”

I think having a profitable company shows your company is adding value on a lot of dimensions. But it has changed. It used to be my number one objective. It's not. I have been approached and I'm boasting that it's true twice in the last 24 months by

enormous $100 billion plus private equity in alternative investment funds for senior roles

there where on a risk adjusted basis, I would make a lot more money than I'm making now. And I don't want to do that, because it doesn't sound like fun to me. There's just no way I want to spend a ton of time talking to a textile manufacturer about being taken private and then spend a time in board meetings trying to turn a $3 billion acquisition and paid down the debt and sell it for $7 billion and take my percentage of the carry.

I would make more money doing that, I think. I like what we do. I think we're having a positive impact. I think it's fun. I really enjoy doing this podcast with you.

I, the people I work with are lovely. Catherine Dylan and I are not just coworkers or friends. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of the people that PropG are people I've worked with before and are generally like I think really pleasant people that are nice to be around, I get huge emotional and psychic reward now finally from my professional life.

And we make good money, maybe in great money, I could make money at more money elsewhere. But that's not it. I'm going to be dead soon. I have enough money. I want to have like, I want to have a really nice time where I feel like I'm adding value.

I have purpose. I enjoy myself. The real witness test. You were talking about you're having a bad day when I was your age. On Thursday afternoon, I'd be like, "Fuckin' yabba dabba do it's Friday tomorrow.

I'm going to, I can't wait to hit the bar. My friends, what am I doing this weekend? Where am I having brunch? How hotter the people going to be at brunch? How can I find it?

Cool at place for brunch and hang around with even hotter, more interesting people. And then by Sunday night, love hot people. And then by Sunday night. By Sunday night, a cloud would come over me and I'm like, oh my God, I gotta go back into the salt mines Monday morning.

And I would literally get physically depressed Sunday night. I know a long that the biggest victory in my life and again, this is a blessing.

“I think that's how most people, unfortunately, live their lives.”

The biggest blessing in my life, I do not discern between my weekends in my weekdays. I love my weekends. I love my weekdays. I get up. I looked at my last night.

I said, in my alarm, I got five hours of podcasting today. I'm doing another pod. And then I'm going to the Carbondale Rodeo to watch these, I don't see these little kid rodeos where they put these scared little four year olds on a sheep until they get bucked off.

It's hilarious. That is a great day. That is a great day. Does it involve a lot of work in my stress, a little bit, talking about this stuff, trying to figure out the data on fucking SpaceX and whether it's valued or overvalued?

Yeah. But I have, that is the biggest blessing in my life.

One, people who love me unconditionally, a lack of economic anxiety for the first time

in the last 10 years that I didn't have the first 50 years of my life. And I do not discern the difference between the weekdays and the weekends. When I was your age, I was working my ass off. And by the way, I don't think you are addicted to money at all. I would argue your approach to trying to be very focused on your professional and your economics

success. I would argue for a young man in this society in a capitalist society. That is good common sense. As much as people want to talk about, well, money isn't everything, okay, fine.

“If you want to live in New York and you want to raise a family and potentially give your partner”

an opportunity to stay at home, if in fact she wants to during certain periods of child rearing, okay, you need to make a million bucks a year. Fine, if you want to move to St. Louis and have a nice life in a 10 church and only make 80 or 100 grand year, which still isn't using this economy, have at it. But all this bullshit, all these people who say, you need to work on yourselves and when

you invest too much in your career and your creatives and work out, there you are alone and depressed, okay, bitch, is that going to pay for your health insurance? So I say to young people, bus to move to some sort of economic security, I'm not saying you got to work, go to work for Goldman or you got to kill yourself. Some people live to work as I did and some people work to live because they want to have

more balance in a life. Have at it.

But the reality is in a capitalist society, especially as a young man.

And I think the advice is the same for a young woman. I think young women need to be economically secure, so they don't have to be economically indentured to some douchebag they don't want to live with. But my advice to young young people, yeah, bus to move towards economic security, find

relationships, spend less than you make, save money, and hopefully you get to a point

as I have where you can focus on your relationships and having a great time in trying to think about, all right, now how do I actually add value and give back and recognize a lot

“of my success is not my fault in trying to create the same opportunities for younger people.”

But I would argue where you are and the attitude and the approach you take, not addiction at all. For me to continue to be totally focused on money, which I don't think I am, but probably still too much, that's an addiction. Well you're suffering from as a healthy dose of common sense.

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Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's OdoO.com. We're back with Profty Markets. Take us back to when you decided to become a professor, because I do think it's interesting that you made a non-economically motivated decision, while you say that you were not in a state

of total economic security. You certainly won't wear you all now economically. That's kind of interesting. Why did you do that? Did you think that you would just give up on not trying to be, I mean, you said you like

the sound of Scott Galloway billionaire, you're not a billionaire, but you're you've made a lot of money, certainly several, several millions of dollars. I mean, what was the rationale like when you decided to become a professor?

I pissed me off, because I made a lot more than that.

Anyways, we need to go there. I'm just trying to be honest about what a fucking narcissist I am and how I still can play money with character. Anyways, the teaching thing was got him David Ocker changed my life. He was a professor at the hospital of business, went back to business school, because I didn't

know what I wanted to do. I just knew I didn't want to be an investment banker, and I took his class, and I just thought it was incredibly taught this class on brand strategy and it talked about the importance of yellow for caterpillar about how this color meant reconstruction and hope and capitalism

and caterpillars enjoyed these irrational margins and what Nike means in terms of, you didn't,

didn't win silver, you lost gold and competitive excellence and how they could figure out a way to get people to pay a hundred and ten dollars for a shoe that costs seven dollars to manufacture. I just thought, this is what I want to do the rest of my life. And I also, when I was in business school and I got my act together and started doing well,

“I thought, I think I would really enjoy teaching.”

And I actually met with some advisors and thought, I'm thinking about getting a PhD and going another three years here and being a professor and becoming kind of a real professor and that is PhD 10 year track professor.

My mom got sick for the second time in my second year in business school.

She was diagnosed with cancer and I just thought, okay, I got to make some money. I got, this is my priority as money and I'm 27 second year of business school. My mom is sick again and to be under-insured in a capitalist America and not have money is a, I mean, the moment I became obsessed with money, I can tell you exactly what it is. I, my mom called me, my second year of business school and said, I'm not feeling well.

You need to come home. This is really bad. She just had her second mastectomy. She was discharged from the hospital early because hospitals have an economic incentive to kick you out early.

My mom is not a dramatic person. I flew home, Southwest Airlines Oakland to Burbank and I walked into a situation in all this period of the details, but it was a gruesome, uncomfortable situation at that moment like the, what I'll call the downside of capitalism, like punched me in the fucking face. And I said, okay, like sleepwalking through life and being, I don't want to call it economically

responsible but not as focused. That part of my life was over and I became very focused on money and that was the moment.

“I mean, that was, and something I think about now is like where do my kids find grid to”

be productive and, and work hard, but that was, you know, that was the moment for me where I thought, okay, there's certain things that are at a control, but I can control how hard I'm going to work. And it just really struck me that in America, not having money is humiliating and, you know, inhibits your ability to take care of the people you love, but that literally that

was the moment. It's like, okay, I'm not going to go get my PhD because I think I'll like teaching. I'm not going to like fuck around and not good, good grades. I'm not going to, you know, smoke pot every night. I'm going to like, you know, I'm going to get serious. And because my lack of economic power was not only like the attention going to make me vulnerable,

but it had put my mom in a vulnerable position. But that was the moment. I mean, I feel like it's such an important moment because of how unfair it is. Like when you think about the constraints that a lack of money puts people into, at a moment where it's a bias, you say, about protecting your mother and this stupid thing called money, put a constraint on the situation where you didn't have much of a choice.

Well, let me be clear, just so I can not sound like a virtue, so I'm not too much else about having a lot of money. We give me a late more. I need to be honest. So I had motivations

“on a number of dimensions. But it's also informed my priorities as I get older. I think”

we, and I've given my native politicians, I, who are the, I think we absolutely need universal health care. I don't think any son and he has been, should think, I'm micro bankrupt because

in shame felt by 40% of the US household to have some sort of medical debt. I think that's

unforgivable in a society as prosperous as us. And, and so it's informed what's important me, you know, one of the things I'm very focused on right now, I'm writing a book on, you

“know, it's obviously called Project 28 about economic policies and that I think would help”

America. And top of the list, I talk about this a lot, is just healthcare. We, we have to have some form of single payer universal healthcare. That would be, the SNP could double, more creative to the well-ming and, and health mental health of Americans would be some sort of single payer healthcare. You know, everyone should post the Canadian system or the national, the NHS and the UK. No one's worried they're going to go bankrupt if they're, if, if they're,

if they're, their, their daughter gets MS. I mean, that's just unforgivable. So that experience not only not only motivated me around money, it's informed my worldview. Also, as I've gotten older, it become much more about a progressive tax structure. There's, there's just no reason anyone needs to make more than 10 billion bucks a year. Well, you don't need it. It's not going to make any happier. So why would you tax that? I'd call it alternative minimum

tax, a 40, 50, 60%. Because that additional incremental tax revenue, if it provides universal healthcare or, or, or universal or so pre-K, it's going to create a great deal of happiness for households. Well, you politically, just a question. Well, you politically motivated 20, 30 years ago, or is this going there? Oh, it's more new. I, you know, when I was your age,

“I didn't really care about much about politics. I mean, I was a Democrat. I remember I, all my friends”

in the fraternity would refer to me as a pussy because I had a monday poster in my fraternity window,

and they all thought Reagan was the biggest stuttle. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I've always been in

some of the friends, the lib tollsman. Yeah. Yeah. I've always been, I've always been a progressive, but it really has, I've become much more politically involved as I've gotten older. Anyway, I find it super interesting, but I really do think that all of the things that gave me success or under attack right now, assisted in lunch, held in our hands, all my companies were built by immigrants. Um, my mom access family planning. Uh, I just, all the things that got like put,

you know, state sponsored education, all the thing at a affordable accessible, right? I everything that put me here with you now are under attack. And I just think we'd show a lack of, I don't want to be the Lindsey Graham of whatever it is I do, and that is enjoying being an openly gay man while continuing to diminish the rights of other gay people, like I find that unforgivable. I don't want to be the, you know, I don't want to be, I don't want to be an ungrateful prick.

And, and not advocate for policies and investments that have given me such

an incredible life and also push back on many of the policies that are making it harder for people

like myself to achieve the American dream. So yeah, it's made me much more politically aware

“as I've gotten older. Uh, when I was year age, I remember, I think it's so sad. I think a lot”

about young man and mating and relationships supposedly a big reason why people want to date each other is they have different political views. I can't throw a wife of me. I could not gun to head, tell you what the political views are worth. Anyway, when I dated in my 20s, and we just didn't talk about that shit. It, I mean, he just didn't matter, and I like, okay, great, another reason why people aren't dating. But no, I became much more politically cognitive.

I don't think I voted until it was 24 or 28. I don't. So yeah, that is increased dramatically for me. We'll be right back. And for even more markets content, sign up for our newsletter at profgmarkets.com. Support for the show comes from Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value and fixed income is not easy.

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like a new Mac studio for AI stuff, a new Mac mini for AI stuff, with new faster chips,

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we get advice on what laptops that we're buying, now that everything is more and more expensive, and we break down what happened this week's big metacetlement about kids safety. That's this week on the vergecast, wherever you get your podcasts. We're back with proffchy markets. If you lost your money tomorrow, what would happen to you? This kind of gets to the extent to which money becomes part of your identity, because we're

“talking about this idea of self-worth, and that's how you figure out which people are valuable,”

and you're saying this in the sense that you had maybe a problematic relationship with money in this regard. But to what extent do you feel that it is tied into your identity today?

On, does it have a free queue out? Well, if I lost my money, all my money, the first thing is

I'd be tangibly less interesting. It's true. People think I'm much more interesting than I am, and one of those reasons is because of the podcast and the little bit of fame we have. But also, when you're wealthy in America, people either think he's a really interesting guy or he's a success. I just want to know him. I mean, I've gotten more interesting and attractive almost entirely correlated to my net worth. It's just the truth. That is what it is to be a male in America.

You're fucking fascinating when you're rich. Maybe you're hated, but you're fascinating. And so the first thing that would happen is I'd get the number of random outreaches and dinner innovations I get would be cut by 90%. It would massively attack myself this name. And I would be very fearful about, you know, I'm dropping my kid off a UVA out of state tuition is 62 grand. It's probably going to cost us minimum 100 grand a year. I don't have to worry

about that. I get to worry about whether I'm going to the UVA versus Cal game with my friends and whether he'll be embarrassed to have me there or not. You know, I can worry about all the dumps yet because I'm not freaking out about how I'm going to pay for my call it. My kid's education.

“If I didn't have those abilities, I think I could still make money. I'm so reasonably talented,”

reasonably hardworking. It would enormously attack myself. Examine anxiety because it takes me back to when my oldest was born 18 years ago. It was right after the great financial recession. I had lost everything again. And when my kids came marching out of my girlfriend, I didn't feel bright lights and angel singing in like a life insurance commercial and automatically left on my fuck. I am so anxious and so pissed off at myself and so ashamed because I was making

all this money and I was too stupid to diversify. Totally ego maniacal convinced by my VCs to go all in over and over and great financial recession hits and I am broke and now I've not only failed

So the idea of feeling that again where if I'd lost money, I would be bummed out because I wouldn't get to do the things I'd love to do. I don't think I'd be as interesting or as attractive to other people, but the shit that would really fuck with me would be a sense that I had failed my family

“and that I wasn't living up to my obligation as a protector. That's what would really like.”

I mean, I was just thinking as you asked that, I thought, would I rather be diagnosed with cancer or go broke? And people say health is everything. I get it, but I have to think about it for a

second because I'm a very analytical person, majority of people diagnosed with cancer, survive it,

and die from something else, depending on the type of cancer. If I had filed a sudden, I went to zero at my age, I'm not sure I could make it back again. I know I don't want the stress of having to try and make it back again. The feeling of shame a lot of it would be self-imposed that I wasn't a good protector or provider for my family would be just God at this age. It would just be, I mean, I think I would choose the broke over the cancer, but it's not an easy choice for me right now.

I mean, that's, I know, pathetic that sounds. I don't think it sounds pathetic. Maybe other people

would too. I don't think so. But I'm like, with the money I have, I think I can probably solve

most cancers, or at least address them, depending on the type of cancer. As soon as you said that, I thought, okay, I would rather have cancer be broke, and I had to think about it. So anyways, I don't use saying that question triggers make, because I diversify so much, because I add, I'm not going back. It's like that final scene in God of Great Movie. The Michael Mann movie with Al Pacino, Robert De Nero. Heat, Jesus Christ.

“All of you have to go watch heat. Anyways, the end scene of heat, Robert De Nero and Al Pacino”

having this conversation, Al Pacino is a cop, Robert De Nero is a criminal, and Robert De Nero is like talking about prison. He's like, I'm not going back. He's like, you know, I'd rather die. He's like, I'll die at a gunfight with cops, but I'm not going back. I don't want to, I don't want to be automatic, but I have real fears or at this age around going back. I've tell people I've been rich three times, it's because I've been broke, I've gone broke twice. And I'm not going back again.

I really don't want to go back again, because I don't feel like I have, I don't have the constitution, the work ethic, and the forgiveness in myself to get back up and try it again and claw back again. And I coach a lot of my friends around money and we're very open with each other and I'm my fondest thing is like, dude, what are you doing? You're taking too much risk. I'm like, we're too old to make it back again. You got to diversify. You're too concentrated in this ass.

What are you thinking? But yeah, that is a triggering question for me. At your age, you could go to zero right now. You'd be fine. You're super talented. You're on the upslope. CMBC or MSNBC or MSNow or whatever, you know, would say, hey, do you want to substitute for Katie Tour? And they'd pay you a lot of money or you could go to work. You could, you're fine. At my age, going to zero is an entirely different scenario. Do you have fears around going

“broke right now? No, I think to your point, I mean, I really wouldn't like it, but I think I would”

take it apart myself to figure it out. I trust myself that I can do it at this point. But I also don't want to get too confident about that or too cocky about that and think that I can figure it out no

matter of what, I mean, who knows. But no, I think ultimately, yeah, this goes to your point.

I feel that I have, I'm young, I have time, I can weather up some downs and I can probably figure it out over the long term. But I would, I prefer to make it easy for myself. That would be ideal. Just as we wrap up here, what advice would you give to someone who is struggling right now, economically, who feels like they're in the place that you were when you say, I'm not going back. And who wants to get to where you are? Well, the first is if you wake up

thinking you were rich in your broke because you weren't diversified or the market went the wrong

way on you, whatever, partially or faralt, partially out of your control. The first thing is

forgive yourself. Recognize that a lot of your success on the way up wasn't your fault, but a lot of the things that hurt you economically and professionally are your fault either. And my core confidence of storytelling, my superpowers have been one ability to attract and retain good people, but also to forgive myself. I have a lot of friends who knew nothing but success, great business school out of the gates for a hedge fund or McKinsey or Goldman made a shit ton of

money. And then the market turns against them for whatever reason. They lose a bunch of money and they have to close their hedge fund or they get laid off from Goldman or whatever it is or

they thought that they'd start their own consulting practice and it doesn't get off as quickly.

And they can't forgive themselves. They get stuck. They feel agreed. They have a lot, loss of confidence or angry at the world. I've been shot in the fucking face and I mourn for a little bit and then I get up and I try and raise my money and I move on. That's been my superpower. I'm really good at getting up and trying again. I don't want to do it again. But what I would say is

“if you get shot in the face economically and things haven't worked out, you have to recognize.”

A lot of that's not your fault and do whatever it is you need to do. Being around the right people for giving yourself, but every day get up, get exercise, get sunlight, good nutrition and build a list of things you're going to do that day to start making baby steps to get back in the game. Because America forgives people and America still, you still have I believe more agency in America than any nation in the world and recognize that, okay.

Yeah, I got shot in the face. It's upsetting. Next, what am I going to do tomorrow to like building in and forgive yourself? Because the thing you're going to regret in your life is not what happened to you. You're going to regret how hard on yourself you were. But I don't think there's any like algorithm or secret, you know, silver bullet for this is how you build back. You build back by building. You get up. You try again. You reach out to people. You ask for help.

You work hard. But the thing that takes so many successful people off track is they have their first defeat and they can't get up. They're literally frozen. I mean, and this isn't, these are smart talented people and they're like still talking about how their hedge fund closed eight years ago and they haven't been able to raise money and they are trying as hard and they're depressed and it's just like, okay, get on with it. Get on with it. You know, go to work for a bigger fund or

whatever it is or try something else. You're a talented guy. You've been blessed with incredible

and I'm saying this because most of my friends are guys. You have incredible education. Maybe you aren't going to be a master of the universe. You don't need a fucking townhouse and try Becca. You're going to be fine with a nice place among Claire New Jersey or maybe in God forbid moved to Florida where the cost of living is much lower. You're going to be fine. You're going to be happy. Do you have a good partner? Do you? You're talented. You can make a good

living. So anyways, long story short, forgive yourself. When things are going really well,

“recognize a lot of that is in your fall and you need to be humble and you need to diversify”

because eventually the wind's will turn against you and when things aren't going your way and you have your fire, you lose a shit ton of money, your business fails. You have a love that's not affection that's not reciprocated by from someone else. Recognize at the end of your life you're not going to be upset about what happened. You're going to be upset about how upset you were. In just next day make a list of what's required to move forward and every day make progress

against that list and don't feel any shame. Keep in mind, oh you I've had tons of businesses fail. And I was it's like okay, people read in the paper that brand far my e-commerce incubator back by Goldman Sachs and Howard Schultz and was on the cover of ink magazine. It went out of business. Oh, how fucking embarrassing. How am I going to recover? No one cares. No one cares about your failure, which means if you have a good idea they're willing to invest in you and they're willing to come

to work for you again. They're not that's one of a thing about America. No one is thinking about your

“failure or your success or your shit as much as you are. So why wouldn't you just get up and try again?”

And there's another relationship. There's another investment. There's another business waiting to be a protester started. And if you've done it once you can do it again and just get on it. Like

This episode was produced by Clay Miller and Allison Weiss and engineered by Benchman Spenza

“a video editor. It's where he called to a research team. He's down Schlon, Chris Newton,”

here in Mia Salvario, shaking the fosters on social producer Drew Burris is a technical director

and Catherine Dylan's are exactly to produce her. Thank you for listening to prompt you markets

“and prompt you media. If you like what you heard, give us a follow tune into Maro for a fresh take on the markets.”

And come, forgive us all. As the long term and the long term. And the long term.