Two Months In: Why Markets Stopped Caring About Iran

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“That's how much New Jersey Transit is considering charging for a round trip, trying to get to the world cup this year.”

Ed, what do a 12-volt battery and an asshole have in common? What? Well, you know, you're not supposed to put your tongue on it, but you do anyways. Are we going to get to the world cup this summer? What are we going to do about this? I'm very upset because this is like the big moment.

I should obviously be going to the World Cup.

Huge football fan never gone to the World Cup in my life.

And it finally arrives in America, but I can't get a ticket. It's just insane. Why don't have you heard, but an alcoholic, a priest and a pedophile are going to the World Cup. And that's just the first person. What is the joke? Who are you making fun of?

I'm saying that the same person, alcoholic, pedophile priest. Anyways, I didn't deliver that well. It's time to bring in our producer. Okay. Wait, hold on.

No, no, no. I don't want. I was interviewing for a job. And the interviewer said, "What is this for your gap and your resume?" And I said, "Well, I went to Yale." And she said, "Wow, that's impressive. You're hired."

And I said, "Oh, God, that's such a good news. I really need this job." Think about it. I got it. I got it.

Again, the silence is not an indication of confusion. And I was, "How are you, Ed? I'm doing well. I, again, present you the question, what are we going to do about this world cup thing? Are you going to be able to figure it out? Like, I don't know what to do about it.

I'm just going to regret it the rest of my life. Is it really that hard to get tickets right now? It is. Unless you're willing, I think, to spend like a lot. Not just a lot, but like a fortune.

Better start wearing more quince bitch. So, I've been, yeah, I've been the last two times. Like, I get, I don't know, I get a brand takes me.

“So, I don't, but I would bet if you want to figure it out.”

I would bet tickets start to free up towards America's never been that into football.

So, I don't, I would bet a lot of tickets will free up. But I don't, do you want to go to the big games? Do you want to follow Team England? I mean, England would be incredible. But, I mean, that's, I think that's a, that's high hopes to go see England.

I'd go to anything, I'd go to anything in New York. What, just to get, curious, what is your plan here? Are you waiting for a brand to tell you, hey, we have some tickets come along? Yeah, that's exactly my plan. You just literally outlined my plan.

I don't, I don't think it, I mean, it's not till when is it? Oh, it's coming up. So, what I'm saying? I got to get my act together. I get the sense, Ed, you're going to figure this out.

We're going to figure this out for you. I get the sense that someone's going to-- Well, that's kind of why I bring it up. I was hoping that maybe you'd give me sort of the inside baseball. This is your fishing for invites to the World Cup.

Yeah, exactly. Maybe you get off a ticket, and then you kind of forward me the email, like, maybe you have a conflict or something.

“Yeah, I think the answer is paramount plus.”

We'll say, we'll figure it out. Paramount plus, that's very exciting. And in other good news, they, I mean, now I'm going to add drag for saying good news.

One of the brothers has officially decided that they are going to get sold to paramount,

which is something we could discuss. But that's not on the docket today. We have other stuff to discuss. Before we get to that, though, I want to promote our tour. Again, we are hitting San Francisco, LA, Miami, Chicago, New York.

We're going to be on the road May 27th to June 2nd. If you haven't gotten your tickets, do it now. Go to profgmailkitstor.com. Scott and I are going to be live in conversation. We're going to be doing Q and A. We're going to have some very, very special guests.

It was just interesting. We were worried. We knew we would do well on New York. We're almost sold out in New York, but we're almost sold out in the city. We thought we were going to do least well. And you know what city that is?

I do. So I'm in Cisco. San Francisco, that's right.

“I think they're coming to throw shit at us.”

But yeah, we're doing well in San Francisco. But it's going to be great. It's going to be a chance for us to spend a lot of time together, which will be nice. But anyways, they're, I don't know how to promote it other than the saying they're a great time. And Ed likes to drink on my care of Swisher. He likes to drink.

So we'll, we'll, we'll try to do an after party at all of them, which will be, which will be fun. I'm going on the road with Scott. I'm excited about that part. We're going to take a big bus. We're driving across this great nation.

We're going to get groupies. Let's hope so. Yeah. I don't know. All right, in other news, let's talk about Iran. Let's move to something more light.

Yeah. Okay. Let's do it. The war with Iran reaches its two-month mark tomorrow. That's well beyond the four-week timeline. The Trump administration had initially suggested.

So with the conflict stretching into its third month, we thought it was a good moment to step back

and assess how it's impacting prices and also the broader market.

“But the big questions still looms how and when does this actually end?”

Scott, let's just look at what's happened with the markets here. We're now at month two. We started this war on February 28th. So we've essentially two months into this thing. Oil prices are rising still.

A Brent crude is above a hundred three dollars a barrel. So I think a lot of people expected that maybe oil prices would kind of calm down that the markets would sort of temper. That hasn't really happened. It's still very volatile and it still is pretty significant.

The elevated compared to where we were before the start of the war. But what has been interesting is how well the stock market has performed. So since the ceasefire was announced, the Dow has risen six percent.

The S&P has risen eight percent to the Nasdaq has risen 12 percent.

And actually it's not just US markets that are rallying. It's markets everywhere around the world. So again, since the ceasefire since Trump announced that ceasefire and we can debate whether it actually was a ceasefire, but since that announcement, Europe stock market up 3 percent. Germany's up 4 percent, China's up 5 percent, India's up 5 percent, Japan up 10 percent.

So it does seem that investors are either breathing a sigh of relief or deciding that things don't matter perhaps as much as they originally thought when it comes to the war and its impact on the larger economy or they're just looking at the earnings that we're seeing and the earnings have been pretty phenomenal that which we've seen since the start of this war. The point being markets stock markets are doing pretty well right now and they continue to do quite

well. There's some nuance that we can dive into but let's just start with your reactions to that fact S&P up 8 percent since the ceasefire.

“The market seems to believe that the war is going to come to an end also I think it's a bit of a”

recognition or belief that we have fully transitioned to attack and services economy and the straight-up removes doesn't stop that and at the center for attack and services is the United States and distinctive the frame of our alliances. I think long-term just impossible to believe this is not going to have some sort of a pretty serious economic impact but when the majority of the S&P is fueled by companies and services in tech whether it's shaping work in or Microsoft

those companies don't seem to be I mean in many ways this comes kind of benefit from this. I mean there was talk of data centers being bomb but not really the tariffs don't affect them energy prices I guess arguably might affect them but they have the capital to try and I mean the really good ones kind of secure the energy supply before this nonsense right so it has been and if you look at the markets that have performed the best the two markets have

is the place to be they are the number one producer of chips right and so their markets up

15% as a chips market goes so does the Taiwanese market and the interesting one is Israel's market

“is up 9% and I think what people have I think if you try and read into it the market is basically”

decided that that Israel is the new superpower is the superpower the definitive superpower on the Middle East and its tech sector I mean I think the market is betting that their technological excellence as demonstrated during the war if you look at many of the a lot of people would argue who are you from military spending that the spillover effect is actually a creative that whether it was you know radar which gave rise to GPS jet technology which ended up transforming jet

transportation that there's a lot of spillover DARPA was basically a backbone communication

network for post-apocalyptic America that gave rise to the internet and I think a lot of investors are looking at Israel and saying the technology is demonstrated during this what feels like a permanent conflict the last better part of the last three years is going to spill

“into their tech sector which is now I think the third largest tech sector in the world”

and it's really registered and credible growth and they have more unicorns per capita than any nation in the world so I think the world or the markets have come to the conclusion one rich people drive the markets and they don't care about energy prices and two the world has become we're no longer a fossil fuels economy it makes a difference but this is a technology in a services economy now and these companies are doing really well and also to be fair the earnings

have been really strong across these companies so consumer sentiment it's there's some dissonance while consumer sentiment claims studies say consumer sentiment is its lowest level it doesn't seem to be translating to a decline in consumer spending I mean I guess the first thing to address why are my markets rising and it could be that one investors think that the war is about to end in which case I fundamentally disagree with them I don't think this war is coming to an

“end I don't think we had any indication that this war is even close to coming to an end I think”

it's actually going for a long time or two they've decided that this doesn't matter that much in terms of the markets because the markets care about earnings and so far as you say earnings have been extremely strong every sector's earnings estimates have risen since the war began especially

the tech sector which is the most important one which the market is pretty much dependent on at this

point their earnings estimates have seen the largest increase in recorded history so I think that that is the the correct reading or at least if you're going to justify why the markets should go up why right now is a buying opportunity I think the correct reasoning is you would say not that the war's going to end but regardless of what happens with the war earnings in corporate America are fundamentally very very strong right now and they're increasingly driven by one sector that isn't

going to be hamstrung by the fact that there is traffic and blockades in the straightforward moves it isn't going to be fundamentally affected by rising gas prices that's not going to be really a problem and to your point when we look at the the backward-looking data so that meaning the data that we already know the evidence that we have yeah consumer spending is actually not going down we've seen the consumer spending is is pretty stable we saw that in most of the earnings

from the banks we also saw it from capital one in their earnings last week they said that quote so far we've not seen any adverse effects on our portfolio even in our credit or in our spend metrics consumer spending is pretty much fine at the same time as you say you've got consumer sentiment which is literally reached a record low so how people feel about the economy right now is not good at all and then the question then becomes how much of a metric is that really

the question then becomes what happens next though because we haven't really seen what elevated and and durable gas prices will do to this economy yet and while yes we have electrified our economy more so than we have in the past and while yes the top 10% of consumers make out half of all consumer spending and they are not very sensitive to gas prices

35% in America since the war began and they're up even higher and basically every other market

around the world and so the question then becomes is it going to have a real impact next quarter or the following quarter after that and that is a question of how long are we going to remain in Iran it's it's it's a very complicated and unclear question right now and it is it does all go back to this point that we've said a lot a lot of the time which is that the economy is so fundamentally dependent on both their handful of tech companies at the top and also a handful

of earners and thus spenders at the top as well which means that it's it's very hard to even understand how the economy is even doing and so the stock market is just as we've said a pretty

“shitty indicator of general economic health but that's what we're here to talk about and so far”

investors believe and they're probably right that oil prices are not going to have that much of an

impact on earnings especially when we're in this AI boom and AI spending and revenue continues to rise I mean it's a couple things in terms of markets your proximity AI coupled with the trade surplus of oil so are you an oil exporter importer in your proximity AI so are in the security of it so Israel markets up tremendous proximity to AI I want tremendous proximity to AI but they're both oil-line resounding as oil importers and what that says to me is the proximity

to AI that's your need for energy and then you look at the US it is both got it not only has proximity AI it's ground zero for it and we're an oil exporter and despite the fact okay so think about the cost of production for oil have not gone up in the United States they can still extract a barrel of oil for about the same price as they could five weeks ago the differences they're now getting what you know 40% more per barrel that is money that goes into the pockets of shareholders of

US companies so it's not to its extent the increase in energy costs here aren't leaving our shores they're just being redistributed maybe inefficiently but you have a lot of companies you have oil companies big companies in the S&B 500 in the United States who are benefiting from this so while it'll cost consumers money and at some point you think that squeeze out other purchases but you're not seeing a decline in the purchases of sight licenses for anthropic because people are spending

“more in gas this week and that's what drives the market now in terms of moving forward also it just”

appears I mean there's just no getting around at the market it's just become just incredibly resilient organism yeah it's just a debt buying machine yeah it seems to be surviving wars pandemics and a friend of mine Jason Mudrick who started Mudrick Capital is a distress credit investor said something that is so simple but it struck me as early in ciphery so like as long as there's demographic growth as long as just population growth and innovation through technology markets

will over the medium and long term go up into the right and just struck me he's right the market has decided that these dips are opportunities that they're not structural their cyclical and then immediately capital ways in to benefit from the upcycle again now having said that in 2022 I didn't see any cost for the markets to throw up and they did I don't know if it was people taking we should ask Josh Brown what happened money off the table but I still think it's more likely

that a announcement from a large corporation who has been a big purchase of sight licenses of AI comes out and says we're not getting we're scaling back on our AI efforts because we're not getting

“the ROI we had initially anticipated I think that is going to be more likely to be responsible for”

a drawdown in stocks in twenty twenty six then Iran or the oil or energy crisis I would just we've been saying this forever we transition from an agriculture society to a manufacturing

to a services and a lot of people said it's always been about energy I get it you know

Indonesia's a bit screwed here and India a big oil importer but it does feel like oil and I can't imagine the investment in renewables isn't going to have such a huge uptick that fossil fuels are going to eat are going to play an even less significant role moving forward you mentioned like if if there were a drawback in AI spending then that would be the thing that that kills the markets not this hundred percent agree that's definitely true

the thing that that is striking to me and I said I made this point and I'll previous Monday episode and I also said it on the daily show last week it also to me shows that investors just don't really care about Iran anymore or at least they they're they're interest

you start to go big zoom out zoom out zoom out and you go big picture and you say you know what

fundamentals are strong earnings are strong in the medium the long term markets go up population growth you know all the things which are true and you refer to those things but at the same

“time I believe that there is a fundamental dis as you said dissociating from what is happening”

on the ground in Iran and I think where they might mess up is mistaking their lack of caring for convincing themselves that the situation is fine and sorting itself out in Iran that to me is just wrong and I just look at what happened in terms of developments in the past week where we had I mean I told you how the markets have responded since the ceasefire began they've gone up but the fact is we didn't have a ceasefire really we still had Iran shooting at ships

uh in the straight or four moves we still had a US Navy destroy our shooting at an Iranian container ship we still had multiple violations of the ceasefire as expressed by both parties by the US and Iran and then we had an extension of the ceasefire which didn't mean anything because the ceasefire wasn't a ceasefire to begin with they were still firing at each other but Trump says

“oh we extended it it's good things that we're moving in the right direction meanwhile Iran says”

that the ceasefire extension means nothing and they're right because the original ceasefire meant nothing so you're extending essentially nothing we're still in the same situation that we were a week ago two weeks ago three weeks ago we're getting into seven eight weeks we're still in a very very precarious situation on the ground there to the point where it's like okay I take the argument that maybe it doesn't matter that I think is fair but I think where we're going to run

to trouble is if we start confusing ourselves and by saying it doesn't matter by saying oh it's it's getting better and oil prices are going to go back up again no so I think that is going to be the thing that investors have to keep in mind at this point and that we all have to keep in mind because the more this goes on like to be frank the more desensitized we become to the situation and you hit see these headlines and then you see things blowing up and you go oh yeah it's just another

“day just that's what happens is there's a war in the Middle East yeah okay and we become the”

whole situation becomes normalized and what I would just again just emphasize there's a difference between believing that it doesn't affect the global market system because we are such a tech heavy and top 10% to 1% heavy economy versus believing that the thing the thing is going to resolve itself to your point it is a little scary that the markets of toilet associated from war and I wonder okay does that mean future presidents decide that have more just a hair trigger in that as

I mean the problem is I think we go to war too easily and to be blunt and this will piss off the

people on us I think we leave too easily and that is we have a glass jaw in that is okay things don't go well 14 people die tragedy for them and their families restlessly seeing 1,000 people a day and effectively the way you win a war if you're a foe of the U.S. is the following you just survive I don't care if it's a Taliban I don't care if it's al-Qaeda I don't care if it's the IRGC they don't need to win all they need to do is survive it's just hold on now

is a relates to energy prices to a certain extent the war and Iran the impact it's having on the U.S. that economic impact has been registered by Europe for the last 30 or 40 years when I mean by that everyone's saying oh the elevated gas prices while the huge impact on the U.S. economy may be those same the gas prices we're paying now European nations have been paying for decades so the gas prices everywhere else Paul from America it's just unbelievable how they've increased so these

economies in Europe and this I went on this podcast called trigonometry and this this really

intelligent guy Konstantin Kissin who I find really interesting is basically said that Europe

is just fucked itself with all this taxation around energy that access to low cost energy is is kind of the the grister the is the the mother's milk for a strong economy and the which is sort of interesting is basically the last 30 years European energy prices have been where our greatest fear is around our own energy prices which leads to the fact that well okay what does that say about taxation of energy what does it say about renewables his whole

point was just just stupid this massive move to renewable at the at the trade-off of economic growth

energy prices are high on Europe is just the wrong focus to me it's like you need to invest more in

your own energy I'm becoming energy independent that is definitely a good thing especially if you're reliant on these nations like Russia who you're now at war with so I just disagree with his framer we should talk about the nations that are having that have had the worst performance Indonesia you know they're an oil importer dollar-denominated debt which has become harder to service and also the global risk version leads to capital outflow some risk era emerging markets

like Indonesia itself the one that surprises me is India which I thought would have had a lot of proximity to AI I'm there market is down about 5% again they're a major oil importer and they're worried that they're exposed to price spikes which could lead to inflation but it definitely I feel like we're in uncharted territory I just wonder I just think my guess is and I don't have a rationale for this the war ends in the markets collapse I just just something

this is just such a strange market right now I don't know I don't have a planet and again it goes back to our major theme on this show you don't try and play it you know if you're worried about the

world and diversify but my view is you're always in the market and you don't try to time it

and the key is just diversification and low cost index funds because if you it would have been very easy to make an emotional decision in March of course the market is down 10% this war is not going well it's going to be a forever war we've lost all this credibility they're sending they've fired more missiles into the UAE than they they haven't Israel I'm selling and then the markets

“trip back yeah I think just on top of that like if you're going to play the market if you're going to”

play games if you're going to trade don't do it on war don't don't don't don't think that you understand geopolitics and military strategy more than other people I'm sort of down with making these

more specific sectors specific bets maybe you have some insight in the tech sector or you have

some insight in some supply chain thing in some very specific industry and you want to kind of get involved in that and make some trades and pick some stocks I'm actually for that I think that it means that you get a better understanding of how markets work and how how flows and volumes work but the idea of like oh I know what's going to happen here that is certainly not something that you should be trading on totally fed have an opinion on it and you can have you got a belief

about what's going to happen in the future but the idea of like now I'm going to bet on that belief now I'm going to bet on the outcome of of our military engagement with Iran that is just such

“such a bad idea and we have started seeing that there's some hedge funds I think I'd exactly”

what the hedge fund is called but there's this hedge fund that just lost like 50% of its portfolio just this week because they were betting again on what was going to happen at oil prices as a result of what happened in Iran and in the straightaway moves and it was just such a terrible bet so it is a reminder like yeah you definitely if you're going to play games you certainly don't want to play games on this subject this is one of those things that you literally just

cannot predict especially when it's all in the hands of this one guy who not even his cabinet can understand or predict his thoughts and his actions the people making the majority of the money here are the ones on the inside who know what he's about to announce the next day yeah exactly plus it's right you are you really you're really going to play that game it's a terrible idea we'll be right back off to the break and if you're enjoying the show so far please follow our

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business grow that's upwok.com upwork.com support for the show comes from vcx the public ticker for private tech for generations american companies have moved the world forward to their ingenuity and determination and for generations every day americans can be part of that journey through perhaps the greatest innovation of all the u.s stock market it didn't matter whether you are factory work and Detroit or farmer in Omaha anyone could own a piece of the great american companies but now

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for more info that's get vcx.com carefully consider the investment terrible for investing including objectives to our just and expenses this and other information can be found in the funds perspective at get vcx.com this is a paid sponsorship we're back with property markets 2026 is shaping up to be the year of successions for some of the world's most iconic companies Tim Cook announced he's stepping down as Apple CEO after 15 years he'll be succeeded

by John Ternis Apple's head of hardware engineering and a couple weeks ago Netflix co-founder Reed Hastings said he will leave the board in June we have seen some other departures earlier in the year Disney named Josh tomorrow as Bob Igger's successor and also Warren Buffett stepped down as CEO of Berkshire Hathaway after more than six decades at behelm so with so many legendary leaders leaving their roles it raises an interesting question which is what actually makes a great CEO

and what defines an iconic one so Scott a lot of departures here some that I didn't announce or mention in that intro Doug Mcmillan of Walmart also stepping aside James Quincy of Coca-Cola Brian Cornell of Target and then of course the big news this week is Tim Cook let's just start with Tim Cook can kind of take a look back at his legacy what he achieved just some of the stats that really jump out he quadrupled revenue during his tenure quadrupled profits 13x to the company's

market cap from 350 billion when he took over to 4 trillion when he left almost 4 trillion he

up performed the S&P by 4x Apple returned 2,000% during his tenure the S&P returned around 500 percent I mean when you just look at the school board when you look at the statistics pretty remarkable what do you make of his departure and what do you make of his legacy well he's first ballot hall of fame for business he is the most successful successor in history and you and around or you weren't of professional age when jobs died but what happened there was this weird shift

in our society where we transitioned from the idolatry of athletes and government leaders and actors

“to innovators and that is because of that I think I think as as attendance or religious institutions”

went down we still wanted kind of godlike answers and the closest thing we could get to godlike mysticism was technology I still don't understand how my phone does what it does and then he collapsed that or collided with our idolatry the dollar and then our new heroes are these innovators and all of a sudden Bill Gates and Steve Jobs became the new you know the new gods especially

and you know so they were the new Jesus Christ if you will so literally Tim Cook didn't have to fill shoes he had to fill you know Jesus's smock or whatever and right away they started

second guessing Tim Cook known who products likes the creativity you know all this shit and like you

said he's probably out of more shareholder value than any CEO in history with the exception maybe of Tense and Huang and he has I mean there's a few things that are extraordinary that won't be talked about as much because they're boring he build arguably the most successful commercial supply chain in history and that is the supply chain to aggregate and coordinate 2000 separate components and build an item in China in a different country that takes advantage of their advanced manufacturing

and the low cost of labor such that he could produce a super computer for $400 instead of trying to produce it in any western nation it would cost 4,000 the result was the most profitable successful product and history and that is the iPhone and generally the rules of marketing are you can have an aspirational niche product like a Ferrari it's highly differentiated and has huge margins or you can have a mass product that's great value where you focus on cost and you have huge

production values that's Toyota apple is really the only product the iPhone is the only product I can think of that has the margins of Ferrari with the production volumes of Toyota it's created more gross margin dollars for shareholders than any product in history it's arguably the most successful thing in history and he did it because of this in his background what's in supply chain he doesn't

“get enough credit for products because my favorite product and I think the most underhype technology”

product in the last 10 years is AirPods and if AirPods were their own business they'd be a fortune 50 company in addition he said rather than trying to come up with new gizmos I'm going to take this product which is the most profitable product in history and I'm going to move it slowly but surely been incrementally and purposely from being a phone to a super computer that's your center for media that where you can make payments so you can interact

with other people you can create presentations I mean this isn't a phone it's a super computer and it's revolutionized the way people do business his ability to create a ring fence and echo system such that he could get a little bit of the app store which is arguably the second most successful

product in history or service in the world the app store 100 billion in services revenue and then

another tectonic move and while it was job idea cook executed against it just at the time when pre-purchased branding i.e. advertising was losing its effectiveness they took billions of dollars out of pre-purchased branding and transitioned it and reinvested it into distribution where

“the distribution around technology again you're too young to remember this if you wanted to go”

by a computer you went to comp USA or circuit city or to like goodies or some shitty place if you're a computer broke down god help you took it to this weird place so they gave you a number and a guy who looked like he had to register with his neighbors gave you a number and told you to come back into you so you could find out that you need a new computer and then they built these temples to the brand 450 of them you want to go an apple store I'd like to live in one of those places

if apple put up a coffee bar in any one of its stores it would be the most the highest revenue per square foot retail in the world but wait they already are the highest per square foot retail

in the world having surpassed Tiffany in the odds so incredible innovation around distribution

consolidation and products into their core product which has the margins of Ferrari the volumes of Toyota also a great manager no people going on background no dramatic firing no scandals no

“lawsuits yeah you know he himself I think have of himself with a lot of grace didn't ship post”

other CEOs except for the black I mean that was his one that was his one mistake for my PR perspective the the trophy that he gave to Donald Trump people would say his sick of entry around Trump is a bit of a bit of a stain on his legacy no one gets it right all at the time and what he I think decided to do he decided to take one for the team and the team was shareholders right I can't imagine the Tim Cook skin didn't crawl going to the Melania premiere I just

but like let me put it this way he he had an opportunity to be a leader there and like the other 499 S&P 500 CEOs he decided not to find but I don't think that's you know if you're career if your business career is 35 frames in the blink of an instant you know he got 34 and it's like trying to see who's been more right than Tim Cook it is really difficult I really like your framing there it's like he took one for the team he ruined his legacy he made himself looked like

just a sicker fan dick idiot ever made fun of him and he did it for shareholders that's why he did

great CEO he took one for the team so just let me also a Tim Cook will overshadow everybody

“but it is important to recognize Doug McMillan he started out I think loading trucks I actually”

did some work with him back when I was at L2 very decent guy very smart stock return he in his 10 years up fivefold 15% annualized return out performed a lot of large cap here is Nike Nestle de Agio and he was one of the really one of the stronger large cap CEOs and probably the most

iconic CEO we're most important CEO in retail and you know he was ever he was the first retailer

to hit a trillion dollar market cap in 2026 and it always been sort of a historically low multiple slogan business revolutionized retail and my story about Doug McMillan was I he asked me to come to present to the board of Walmart I think it was about seven years ago and the next day he invited me to his office and he spent an hour they invite their associates whatever they're called there was a line of like you know Walmart is a lot of employees so 400 people who all looked to be like 110 showed up

when they're smocks or Walmart smocks and he just spent an hour going down the line and saying

“hide everybody it seemed very easy for him he generally seems like a I think arguably he's kind of”

the most downder like he's the guy that like will continue to live in little rock you know he's not one of these CEOs who shoots in and then heads out to the hampsons he struck me as a very downder earth decent guy my point is Tim's going to suck all the auction out of the room and another iconic CEO we talk about retail he sings Doug did an outstanding job and also Walmart had a lot of arrows coming for them whether it was the cheap capital of Amazon or especially retail or

investors looking for a higher-growth company is he was just he was he was an adult in the room and he I mean he's been through he's he's traversed he's weighted and pretty dangerous waters with a lot of great whites which cheaper cheaper capital coming from Walmart definitely could have been I think under less deft leadership Walmart could have been Kmart but bigger but he didn't he you know it's been a solid performer out performing there some paed yeah and there's one of the best

performing stocks of the year I mean the multiple is just incredible I'm a Walmart of the moment

just to go back to Tim Cook for a moment I mean the the question we began here with is what what makes a great CEO what makes an iconic CEO and that is the question that I'd like to get to the bottom of just to go through some of his wins you mentioned many of them apples was a win the apple watch was a win whereables was 36 billion dollars in revenue last year also growing the services business to more than a hundred billion dollars in revenue scaling the iPhone he sold more than three

billion iPhones during his 10 year career it into a more than 200 billion dollar business also something that we didn't mention in our apple episode during the week was pioneering the M1 chip they apple it used to have a dependency on Intel for their chips they created this what they called this unified memory design where the CPU and the GPU kind of comes together into one chip and it is what led to what is now very popular in the AI community which is the M4 Mac Mini which is now

this go to machine for all these AI engineers it is the most popular consumer product that you can buy

“if you want to run large language models and he did that back in 2020 I don't know if it's because”

he predicted what was going to happen with the AI but the reality is it is another winner of the AI boom

and then the biggest thing is that he was this supply chain genius I mean the biggest criticism of apple before he came in was that the supply chain was a disaster and he came in he reduced the number of suppliers by 75% he shut down half of the warehouses he moved things into China he massively increased margins partly by doing that in China where he had all this cheap labor he reduced the labor costs per iPhone by nearly 25% while tripling the price so he massively expanded the margins

I mean those are just some of his biggest wins his failures you'd have to say was the apple car but also maybe credit to him for shutting it down internally vision pro certainly a failure I think it's a little bit of a flop that they're kind of quietly pulling that and now he's leaving and then also potentially AI their AI strategy has been considered by many to be not a very good one I mean there's also the question of should they be investing in data centers their decision is

to not do it while everyone else does do it we'll see if that ends up being a good decision or a bad decision but certainly in terms of consumer AI apple intelligence has been kind of a flop Siri was very well primed to be a great winner of the AI revolution and it wasn't so that

just his management style is something that I think would be interesting to unpack

“Tim Cook has been described as the master of silence that's what a lot of people call him”

and supposedly he had this rule that in meetings he would always be silent for at least 10 minutes

and he made it a rule that he wasn't allowed to react or give any signals of as to how he felt about what the other person was saying and he said quote if I gave any reaction at all people would often tell me what they thought I wanted to hear I found that they were much more likely to say what they really thought even if it wasn't what I was hoping to hear when I was careful not to show what I thought and that was kind of his reputation which is also very very different from Steve

Jobs we should also note who was famously I mean very aggressive commanded the room he was the center of attention Tim Cook decided to actually play at the opposite he was this kind of quiet methodical operator not really a larger than life found a CEO so that's an interesting dichotomy there but I I figure we should put it in contrast with read Hastings because he was kind of the not quite Steve Jobs level of the found a CEO cowboy but kind of getting there he was known

for these very bold risky bets starting with DVD by mail then betting the whole company on streaming at a time when internet speed in America was pretty terrible then betting and going it all in on original content and then going all in on foreign content etc etc so I mean as a CEO Scott and as someone who's been like looking at these guys and studying these guys for a long time what do you take away from like how to manage a company how to manage an organization

what are your main learnings from Tim Cook in contrast to say read Hastings on bounce which things do you think they got wrong if a CEO doesn't have gigantic flops it means they're not trying hard enough and it means they're not at the frontier edge of innovation so I would argue that okay the mixed reality had set that was just an option to make sure that okay if that crazy Zuckerberg is crazy right we at least will be a letter D and they shut that down

the whole thing was fucking stupid um you know did they miss out on AI or they put decided they don't want to go into those capital wars and they'll ultimately garner a ton of revenue by being

“the default AI the car company in my view and this will come back to what I think I'll come back”

to that on what I think makes a great CEO so I've never run a big company I've run

small and medium sized companies but I've worked with a lot of CEOs and I think generally speaking it kind of comes down to three things the great CEOs are attributes that they share the first is they demonstrate excellence they are someone who came up through the ranks and they were just outstanding what they did and they understand the business so Tim Cook is arguably the best supply chain person in the world I got like David Solomon had a reputation for being a great trader

I think Jamie Diamond was a great investment banker at wealth management guy these guys are just you know they're just very they are better at a component of their business then almost anyone everyone everyone looks at these people and says they are just very good you have to demonstrate excellence and not just be quote unquote a manager that can shift the pieces around and kind of this might be like an obvious question but why do you have to do that

why is it important to be excellent well I'll give an example John Donoho who was a failed CEO at Nike was he a great merchandiser was he a great brander like what was his greatness he was essentially a consultant I don't I think I think it helps to be demonstrably great at a key component of the business you know Steve Jobs is arguably the best marketer in the world so I think demonstrating excellence around a specific function of the company most of the great

“CEOs I know are just outstanding at a key component of the business and that's how they got to that”

point and that it gives him an insight into the insight into the company the something I would just to build on that something I was going to also think is important is that typically great leaders don't in a right but anyways go ahead okay oh Jesus Christ like fucking Kara Swisher second thing I'm sorry go ahead go ahead go ahead I think the other thing that is interesting about demonstrating excellence and his importance is that it commands respect and you need the

employee base to like be like yeah this is the right guy for the job and the reason I'm thinking that is because we just saw my favorite team Chelsea we just fired this guy Liam Racinha the Madden Chelsea how many managers is that Joey Baguette don't it's posing as a football club hat in the last three years yeah exactly it's it's it's getting out of control and one of the big problems was he just didn't have a lot of experience but then everyone said yeah but you know

he he could be great he could be great and the problem is he comes into the club

beforehand apparently what happens that the people in the train in the dressing room just didn't

respect him and that in and of itself is a problem so they could have given him some time and maybe he would have turned out to be great but the trouble is because he didn't have the track record it just meant that when he said things people just didn't listen to him because they didn't respect him so that's just a side comment I apologize for the interruption he's not my killer Tata he's the killer Tata so but these guys I would argue these guys mostly as I've known

are you know specifically like they're just no one could do no one could do an earnings call or a best relations like Jeff is us you really were in all these people I've worked with some

“CEOs where I think guys these guys are just so good and they're almost always guys and then two and”

this is key they hold their people accountable and it's not a hallmark commercial they they put in place very definitive metrics for people they have honest enough conversations because the fastest way to just really diminish morale is to let mediocre performers survive and keep them in your company everybody in a company they don't need to like each other but they need to be able to look left and look right and go okay I get it I get why they're here they're

good at what they do otherwise why am I working so fucking hard if Joey bag of donuts over here can be just you know okay at their job and take off early on Thursdays and they get you know they make I get 6% at the end of the year and they get 5% so holding people accountable outlining metrics straightforward on his conversations with them shedding people on a regular basis and I know that sounds harsh but I think great CEOs hold people accountable and this goes back

to the Apple Titan which was their car effort I think what happened there was it was constantly delayed constant production over runs week designs bad strategy and he said fuck it I'm closing the whole thing down he held that team accountable rather than you know that must have been embarrassing and then people talk about it as a failure I see it as a sign of a good CEO this isn't working you said you were going to deliver x by y you haven't I'm shutting this shit down I doubt that

“head of Apple's Titan came to him and said you should shut us down he kept coming to him or you”

know or her kept coming to Tim and saying oh this is why we have missed this deadline this is why

this is not going well and he said okay you should out a lot and then the third thing and it is

more of a hallmark commercial is I generally find these really good CEOs have really good empathy and that is they understand what their employees want and get to know them on a personal level and what's important to them and then they try and adapt or they try and recognize I mean it's more true in small companies but I was found that if I could understand somebody what was important to them whether it was flexibility so they could go it's little league

whether they were totally focused on some people loved to manage people right they just get a thrill out of managing people so find that person say I want you to manage this person some people get so much reward out of seeing their name and lights right big egos I'm one of those people so I used to if a newspaper would call I would say do you want to give this person a quote and letting them give a quote and whatever it was women's word daily was like enormous compensation

“for them so trying to understand your management team what's important them and reflecting”

that I have empathy for you and the key component the key message to CEO has to give to his management team is the following if I win you're going to win I you're coming on this ride with me and and I am really good at what I do and when I win it's going to be a win for you I want you to be successful I'm going to hold you accountable but I'm going to give you good feedback and I want you to win I I I I I I don't need to like you but I want you to have economic security

I want this to be the best platform you have ever engaged in and I'm going to take my excellence as platform and an understanding of what you're good or not good at and I'm going to get you further faster here than any other platform you could associate with. I don't think as I'm a nice guy but I understand why you're here and I promise you I'm really fucking good and me being really fucking good is going to mean you're going to do really well too because I'm going to bring you

along with me and it sounds tripe but it's true team of the best players wins. The metric I was looked at in a corporation board meetings was churn I want to know industry average for churn

at every level of the company and if we're churning faster there's always a good reason for why

oh someone's so left to go to another company. I'm like well okay why what I'm I'm an investor in AI company right now and we've lost two senior managers to AI LLM so I'm like how the why would these people leave? They've got big equity stakes like what's wrong here and I said to the CEO this is a poor reflection on you how could you why did these people decide they don't have the

what's the is it a culture thing is it we're not they don't have strong expectations about an

“outcome here so one demonstrates excellence to holds the team accountable and three has an ability”

to really understand what people want and convince them that if I'm successful you're going to be successful because I understand you and I understand the unique kind of desires you have what you're looking to get out of this anyway so those are those are my three no no it's killed it I understand agree about with all of that I love it who tells the best dick jokes at you demonstrate excellence at the top of the show that's right that's right that's that's not your

area of expertise but you have plenty of others my oldest asked me what condoms are used for and I said so you can avoid stupid questions like this one will be right back and if you're enjoying the show come join us on tour and hang out with us live you can get your tickets at ProfGMarketsTour.com the link is in the description

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on this podcast that's indeed.com/podcast terms and conditions apply hiring do it the right way within deed. I'm Asset Herndon and this is America actually. We're all talking to each other just see what did we do wrong what we do not see. I'm in Washington DC this week to interview Ruben Gaego he's a democratic senator from Arizona and he's been thinking openly about running for higher office but he's recently running to some hot water because of his connection to congressman

Eric's wall well. I have to learn from this and I will learn from this but you know for me it's not a 20 28 question it's about what it means to be a better first boss in my office and also a better senator to my constituents. This week on America actually we asked Geigo about predatory behavior in Washington his plans for immigration reform and more. Hi everyone Caris Wisher here we just won the Webby Award for the best interviews show in

news business and society and I've had some great guests on my podcast on with Caris Wisher. Here are some you don't want to miss. Tristan Harris the co-founder of the Center for Humane Technology. I talked to him about his biggest worry when it comes to development and deployment of AI hinted it has something to do with the CEOs and how they stand to profit. I interviewed documentary

and Louis Theroux. His latest documentary into the Manisfier focuses on the incredible and horrifying

influence this group of individuals has especially on young men and boys. And recently I caught up with Katie Kerr, Akami LaRaca and my brother Jeff Swisher to debunk some of the fads and misinformation

“behind the billion dollar wellness industry and we talked about the important medical tests that are”

actually worth your while. All of these conversations are available now you can find them on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast and we've got plenty more lined up for the summer so be short of subscribed to on with Caris Wisher to catch them all. We're back with property markets. SpaceX just struck a major deal with coding startup cursor.

The agreement gives SpaceX the option to acquire the company for $60 billion or pay $10 billion

for its technology if it chooses not to buy the company. The timing is notable ahead of a potential SpaceX IPO later this year. Okay so Scott SpaceX is buying cursor for those that don't know, cursor is this AI coding company. It's exactly how it sounds. They use AI to basically do the coding for you or code alongside you buying this thing for $60 billion and they also have the option to pay $10 billion to work together if it doesn't work out which essentially just means it's just

chance maybe a significant chance if this won't go through for whatever reason but this is pretty notable because SpaceX is about to go public and that's whatever has been talking about nearly a

two trillion dollar valuation so the idea that they would then buy a company for $60 billion which is a

pretty big deal for a private company. It's pretty big deal for any company and they're doing this just months before they go public and if this goes through by the way they're going to have to refile their S1 and they're going to have to report new financials etc so it's kind of a big deal in the IPO world because everyone's so excited for SpaceX to go public this is going to be the largest IPO in history on various metrics and now they're buying a company for $60 billion

that's a big deal what do you make of it's going? Well my understanding is what it feels like is there's definitely an aqua hire component to this but XAI is desperate my understanding is XAI is just not scaled or shunted ability to develop a product or a front end that registers revenues

“and that I think cursor is an attempt to establish a front end or bolt on a front end that might”

help them get more actual revenue is going the thing that struck me about the deal and its announcement is that you know that saying statisticians lie and liars use statistics this number just feels like

such bullshit to me first off nobody's catching a check for $60 billion here I'd love to see the

deal terms but everything's something along the lines of if we go public you're going to get and you're here for one two three four years you'll get 0.5 one two and three percent options on three percent of the company and at a $2 trillion market cap that's $60 billion no one's catching a check for $60 billion here you got and so it feels to me like and there's just so many bullshit numbers out there like you know take any number that Sam Altman says about investments in compute right

what was it one or two trillion dollars in that one away $850 billion valuation well okay if you if you offer me a 17% guaranteed return in a preference a liquidity preference all invested in $850 billion valuation knowing the companies worth less than at thropic which just raised money at three fifty so these numbers are more about a press release and kind of a jaw dropped and they are about something that's that's actually real I mean space X only had 25 billion dollars in cash on hand

it feels like he's trying to create me nobody is better at saying look over here as he stuffs more rabbits into the hat and to bring together the salad of space connectivity AI a communications platform you know it all feels like okay at one and a half trillion dollars I need a really dramatic story here it can't be that space X is only 12 billion it can't be that my AI seems to be going nowhere I can't be the robots there's really no commercial application

for these things but I'll take it together it just feels like the future all right so I don't I would just love to know how do they get to that $60 billion number and what does it

“what does it mean and and I think he's also and it just kind of goes to my prediction I think”

he's going to roll Tesla into this thing because Tesla all of a sudden what you have is there's so much Elon magic built into these multiples so many people just want to invest behind Elon they think he's the you know he's the the Edison of our generation or this age which I think you know

he's a credible statement so I think I just need to invest behind this guy the problem is

is that the promise it was outpaces the performance so it was has to make a new promise because it's becoming clear the Tesla is a great automobile company that should trade a 20 to the third time earnings not 155 so he'll probably roll that into the whole thing and say that it's about autonomous and AI and then only only his space connectivity and only his AI can power this autonomous car and that he's going to have more data inputs than anybody else he'll keep just look over here

look over here look over here robots you know humanoid robot so I don't but this certainly back to the beginning feels like he needed a front end for XAI which is a distant player right

“now in AI yeah I think that's exactly right you point out this idea that the 60 billion dollar number”

is what does that mean and that is a really important point because I mean the first question is is that 60 billion dollars or is that 60 billion dollars worth of space at stock is that what the cursor team is going to get paid if it's 60 billion dollars worth of space at stock then at what valuation are we talking here is that the private valuation that we've seen is that the internal

two trillion dollars I mean that whatever the answer to that question is would change the 60 billion dollars by orders of magnitude to the point where saying that they bought the 60 billion dollars

“literally does mean like actually nothing the only thing that you could say maybe means something”

is they'll pay them 10 billion dollars because maybe it's more of a likelihood that that would be in cash but even still it could also be stock in which case we don't even know what that means

and this crucially is becoming a trend in the private markets and this has always been a thing

with private markets where valuations aren't very clear it sort of depends on which VC is preempting the deal and you know what how much were you able to raise and the numbers are softer people don't really talk in terms of strict financials they talk in terms of monthly revenue and then they extrapolate and call it run rate and ARR and all these things the numbers in the private markets world are famously very soft and that's okay when you're dealing

with very new young companies because usually those companies don't really have much of a business

“yet so to act as if their Walmart is you know a little unfair you should be maybe a little bit”

more lenient on how they report the numbers but we are now getting to a place where these companies are worth literally trillions of dollars and they're still private and yet they're still treating it as if they are a series a startup that is just getting their feet off the ground

and the reality is these companies are about to go public and it's not just SpaceX it's also

open AI it's also anthropic and if you put them to I mean we can just talk about what the expected IPO valuation is going to be for SpaceX has 1.75 trillion dollars for anthropic it's going to be more than a trillion for open AI it's also going to be more than a trillion and if you add that up if you add the combined market cap of those three companies it would exceed the value of every single IPO from the dot com era put together and at the same time it would also be equal

to half of every IPO from the 50 years before that combined so we're looking at one of the biggest moments in financial markets in a really really long time and it's not just that they're just going to be inserted into the stock market they're going to go in the S&P there's no way that they're not included in the S&P 500 so what you're essentially doing there is you're adding more than three trillion dollars in equity value into the S&P 500 and crucially at the same time adding zero

dollars in earnings because all of them are burning cash SpaceX lost five billion last year

reported we think based on sources again now this is actually disclosed andthropic burned 10 billion open AI burned 25 billion and so we're now getting to a point where these companies are doing all of the things that gigantic public corporations would do they're spending tens of billions of dollars on these huge M&A transactions they're behaving like an Nvidia like a Walmart they're doing all the things that those companies would do and their market valuations would suggest that

they they they are actually commanding that but the way they're disclosing things is so so unclear like even curse so when you look at the reporting on the deal the first thing I'm thinking is like okay what's what's their revenue no one knows we don't know what their revenues we know based on Bloomberg's projections that they're at a two billion dollar ARR that's the run rate but again ARR is just you take one month and then you times it by 12 who knows what the

month was before that who knows if they're cherry picking their months to increase their ARR and then it's the same with the biggest companies the same with open AI we don't really know what the revenue situation actually is because again we're depending on sources say that the number is close to this open AI said that they they generated two billion dollars in revenue last month so I guess the ARR we'd say is 24 billion dollars but again this stuff isn't

that clear and that's important especially if they're about to go public and I do think I guess just to sort of put a button on this when they finally disclose their financials once we finally see the S1 from SpaceX and from Open AI and from Anthropic there's going to be no more capacity for the bullshit that we've been kind of receiving in these sources say reporting for the past

“several years and I think it's very possible that suddenly investors are going to go actually”

know what this thing is pretty ugly they weigh over paid for this company they're burning too much

be the downfall but again we're going to have to wait and see if they even do go public maybe they

“want anyway I think you're on to something with that 60 billion dollar number being bullshit”

and I think it's indicative of something larger and more systemic in the private markets ecosystem right now so if you look at the way that the deal with structure it was just weird so it's all stock deal no cash structure is a share exchange and each xa i share converted to 0.14 shares with SpaceX you're talking about the xa i merger yeah xa i and and SpaceX but essentially xa i was priced at 76 bucks SpaceX of 527 which valued SpaceX at a 159 to 1.3 trillion which is expensive

but a valued xa i at like 250 billion and basically that that over values in my opinion massively

xa i which is also I believe now owns Twitter which was overpaid at 44 billion but what you have here is a lack of representation for the individual companies I don't think an independent and a truly independent SpaceX would ever pay that kind of money for xa i but again that that number is also BS and that's because remember the headlines came out they were like 250 billion dollars for xa i wow what a company and then you look at it it's like they they actually

made that number up it's based on a like a ratio of SpaceX shares that they converted and they just decided oh SpaceX is worth a trillion dollars okay but SpaceX 15 to 16 billion in revenue 8 billion in profit so you know trading it whatever 100 to 145 times revenue so that's

fucking insane but it's an amazing company xa i they did 2 to 500 million dollars last year

and they burned 8 billion and it's being valued at 250 billion so my prediction is the following that the biggest IPO in history will be SpaceX they'll get out the best performing IPO will be on thropic I've never seen that company has more momentum right now than any company and this is

“the big prediction I don't think open a i gets out I think that the numbers are so stark right now”

for open a i that and there it's going to be so overshadowed by the upward trajectory of anthropic I think they're going to come up with a jazz hands reason for why they're delaying the IPO yeah I think that's going to be really interesting and I think the other thing to be to keep an eye on in the big moment is going to be when these companies release their s1 filings to the public

uh I can't wait I cannot wait we're going to finally see and who knows maybe it'll be a lot of

as you often say smearing vastly and over the lens maybe it will look like we work again I mean we know what we worked it they created the most BSS1 filing in the history of markets and a couple people namely Scott Galaway were like hey this is a bunch of bullshit it doesn't make any sense they're basically just lying over and over again and obfuscating and confusing away from the point which is this is not a great business it's possible that SpaceX does that

but even so I do think people are going to be looking for that like this is such an important sustainably important IPO for for for the entire market I mean it's literally going to be inserted into the portfolio is of essentially every american there's no way this doesn't get placed in the s&p same with anthropic same with open a_i_ so everyone's going to have to be very very vigilant like okay we're finally going to learn what actually is going on with these

businesses how good are they really what did they pay for cursor what did open a_i_pay for t_b_p_n_ was that cash was that stock what did SpaceX I mean what does this x_a_i_ SpaceX merger actually look like what are the financials of twitter how does how is that all playing out I mean so many gigantic questions which they just haven't had to answer because they've been private but I'm excited for them to go public because we are finally going to get some answers

to those questions okay let's take a look at the weekend we will see consumer confidence for April we'll see an inflation reading from the personal consumption expenditures index for March and g_d_p_ for the first quarter and the federal reserve will deliver its next interest rate decision on calcium the odds that the fed will hold rate steady or at ninety nine percent and finally we'll see earnings from google from apple from microsoft amazon meta ili_ lily

mastercard visa koko kola x on sheveron b_p_ starbucks spotify and u_p_s_ a ton of earnings

“and most importantly the big tech earnings scot do you have a prediction for us?”

Yeah almost everyone of those companies is going to be to the upside the expectations have been a little bit uh beaten down by the war in Iran and i don't see any of those companies other than

it we're about to see just a series of earnings beats and then uh the prediction of before

space x biggest IPO in history anthropic is the best performing open a_i_ does not get out

“and then also if space x gets out at the level i think it's going to i think a lot of that”

I think there's a lot of acolyte buying in tesla they go i don't care if it's not our company i don't care that it's had quarters of declining sales i don't care the b_y_d_ is kicking into the

ass all over the world it's the got that elan magic and he'll figure it out and i think a lot of

that capital that acolyte capital is going to go into space x and out of tesla and i think just as you're going to see an unnatural uh multiple in space x some of that is going to come at the cost of a rationalization and a leveling and a recalibration down of tesla when it becomes obvious that musk is much more interested in his new is new space x thing and people are going to say i want some of that musk could sauce but i'm going to sell this at 125 you know whatever it is

or whatever tesla traits add i'm going to go into the new cool thing and then there's an outside shot that he merges tesla into the whole thing to try and sustain it such that it doesn't just totally implode my prediction is a two-part prediction number one we've got the interest rate decision my prediction is that we're not going to see any rate cuts for the entirety of the year that's

“not that bold of prediction but the reason i think that is because of my second part of the”

prediction which is i think that the war is going to continue into 227 um we're at two months my takeaway is nothing's changed ceasefire no ceasefire blockade no blockade see this movie before they said it

rack would be six weeks it was eight years they said i've got a sandwich be two hundred billion

dollars it was two trillion dollars trumpets requested one and a half trillion dollar defense budget for next year up from 900 billion i mean i think all the signals are clear that this war isn't

“going to end anytime soon so i think it's going to continue to 227 i don't think that necessarily”

means that markets get crushed for all the reasons that we described but i certainly think that it means that there's we're not going to see any interest rate cuts despite whatever pressure trump puts on the new guy Kevin wars so that is my prediction this episode was produced by Claire Miller and Alison Weiss and engineered by Benjamin Spencer our video editor is Jorge Carty our research team is Dan Schlan is a balance cancel christ note on Hugh and Mia Solveria

Jake McPherson is our social producer drew borrowers is our technical director and Katherine Dillon is our executive producer thank you for listening to crafty markets for crafty media if you like what you heard give us a follow and tune in tomorrow for a fresh take on the markets and the price and love and love and love.