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wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to shortwave. From NPR. Hey shortwaveers, Emily Quang here, and for this month's Nature Quest, I'm joined by Eva Tessvide, former shortwave producer and the current Coastal reporter at WWNO, New Orleans, Public Radio. Hi, Eva. Hey, Emily. So, did you know that in the 80s, people purposefully dumped a lot of weird stuff in the Gulf of Mexico? I've done. Cobre Helicopters,
being old washer machines, tied together, does a sunken trip, but avoiding machines, tied together. It's trash. Why would people be dumping trash into the Gulf of Mexico? They were trying to create artificial reefs. Those are man-made structures placed in the water to create habitat for fish. Basically, fishermen realize they could put pretty much anything in the water, and the fish would gather around it. A Mississippi would call out a honey hole.
And if you can go the honey hole and catch fish every time, you don't keep going back. That's Mississippi House representative Republican Mike Isal. He and some others recently introduced a bipartisan bill to streamline a federal program that turns retired oil rigs into
artificial reefs. This is so interesting. I've never heard of artificial reefs as a way to attract fish.
Yeah, Emily, there are two places in the world with the largest amount of reefs. Can you guess which ones they are? Mmm, like Australia? I guess I'm thinking of the great barrier reef though. Like these are not. This is a washing machine reef. So, where? So, the first one is Japan, which by some accounts has been using artificial reefs since the 1600s to attract fish.
“Huge fishing economy in Japan. That makes sense. Okay. What's the other one?”
The other one, I don't think you would have guessed. It's the state of Alabama. Mm. Alabama has a tiny stretch of coastline, just 53 miles. So, that's really small compared to like Japan or even Louisiana. But that coastline hosts more than 10,000 artificial reefs. And most of them have been put there just in the last 30 years. And so, I wanted to answer a question for myself. Can trash ever be a good thing for the environment?
Today on the show, artificial reefs. What makes fish attracted to them? While of Bama has become one of the artificial reef capitals of the world. Real sitting to shortwave, the science podcast from NPR. This message comes from the BBC with its new podcast, The Interface. Every Thursday, three leading tech journalists explore how tech is re-wiring your week and your
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Okay, if us so this segment is known as nature quest where we try to figure out a mystery unfolding in a local ecosystem. And I got to say the question of why fish would be attracted to an ocean junkyard is one of the strangest mysteries I've ever heard. How does that even happen? Yeah, so I should clarify there are laws now regulating what you can put in the water. Okay. It's less helicopters and washing machines nowadays and usually these reefs designed out of concrete
and rocks. But to answer your earlier question, most of the Gulf Coast has this vast empty sandy bottom. It's a really great habitat for shrimp, which is good for the Gulf's big commercial
“shrimping industry. But to find the hard structures that reef fish are attracted to, you have to go”
pretty far off shore. Back in the 80s, people's hard to realize fish would be attracted to basically
any hard structure. You put in the water, the washing machines, the helicopters, the voting machines. Interesting. Why would fish be attracted to any hard structure? How does that even work? Yeah, so I spoke to a scientist at the University of South Alabama in Mobile to answer that question. His name is Sean Powers and he showed me this underwater video of a cargo container that
Was converted into an artificial reef.
That's been weighted down to put there and it's kind of rusted a little away.
And you want to put it somewhere where it's not going to interfere with existing reefs, which is why the Gulf Coast with its empty bottom is perfect. The other thing you can see is that what that system would be is just sand. Those fish would not be there if it wasn't for that week. And in Alabama, they've designated a thousand square mile zone where you can put the artificial reefs. One person I talked to that design's artificial reefs said he finds Florida
limestone works best for attracting sea life. Shout out, Florida limestone. Okay, so what happens next? After it's dropped in the water, within a matter of weeks, algae and barnacles will start to grow.
So the algae serves as the base of the food web. Then there's small shrimp-like creatures that
will feed on that. And then there's barnacles and trusting animals that the fish will feed on.
“So that's what attracts the fish, which is really the gold food. Yeah, and Sean says they're”
attracted to the container one because of the food, and two because of the protection it offers for predators. When you see a shark swim through there, they will all seek to cover of the reef. So in the video we watched, there were hundreds of fish. And that's a fact because the university sends out these ocean robots to film the reefs and see how successful the reefs are. And it turns out they are pretty successful. Yeah, can you talk about that more evil? What's in it
for the state of Alabama to support artificial reefs? So in Alabama, the goal is really to
attract these coveted fish that sports fishermen like to catch, like for example, Gruper and a golf course favorite red snapper. Some listeners might already know that the population of red snapper in the Gulf was on the brink of collapse in the 90s due to overfishing. It's recovered now, partly thanks to federal and state governments dealing with the overfishing in various ways. But here's a quote from Sean to give you an understanding of how important red snapper is in
“Alabama. People, I think, believe it's a constitutional right for them to be able to go out”
and catch their red snapper. I actually checked the Alabama Constitution, and obviously the right to capture red snapper is not actually in there, but the right to hunt and fish is really huh. Yeah, and almost everybody I talked to in Alabama said the artificial reefs also help the population of red snapper recover in those waters. Plus, artificial reefs have been huge for Alabama's coastal tourism economies. So there's all these charter fishermen there that will take
people out to fish for sport. And I talked to about five of them and all about one fish is off of some sort of artificial reef. There's also, you know, seaside restaurants that serve fish like snapper, there's hotels, snorkeling, scuba diving, even the tourism ads for Alabama's beaches reference the artificial reefs. Did you know the waters off of Gulf Shores and Orange Beach,
“Alabama are considered some of the richest in the country. This area is also home to one of”
the country's largest artificial fishing reefs. Come discover a new state of excitement when you reel in the big one on the Alabama coast. Wow. My environmental brain though is wondering like are there any, there have to be some drawbacks to putting man-made structures in the water to become reefs, right? Well, yes. Of course. So you know how I said the empty sandy bottom off the Gulf coast is better for shrimp. Yeah. So probably one of the most vocal opponents to artificial reefs
are shrimpers. Shorbers like people who catch shrimp. Yes. In the Gulf. And so they're trolling. So they're like dragging these nets across the ocean floor. And if they accidentally troll over one of these artificial reefs, their equipment could get damaged. So they'll lose time and money. And that makes areas functionally off-limits to shrimpers. Though trolling isn't good for the environment either because of the buy catch issue. Well, that stuff that you're not supposed to. Yeah. To catch
complicated complicated. Are there any other drawbacks? Yeah. So the other drawback has to do with the scientific debate called attraction versus production. And this is a question for any habitat you're creating even on land. The question is, are these reefs actually producing more fish than we're here before? Wait. So by producing, you mean like, is the fish population that's coming having babies in ways they wouldn't if the reef were not here? Yes. Is it becoming a habitat
for the fish and are there more fish in the end? Yeah. But on the other side, fishermen are the ones placing down these reefs 80% of them. So the artificial reefs might not be producing more fish at all. They might just be attracting the fish to a place where they're easier to catch. And then the
Fishermen catch them and that doesn't allow them to live longer and reproduce.
about this if in fact the reefs were concentrations of fish but the biomass wasn't like increasing
“because of them, you know. Exactly. That's the question. Yeah. Do we know the answer? The answer”
according to Sean's research depends on how close you place the reefs to the shore and therefore how easy it is for fishermen to access. And so a lot of Sean's research now is about planning where these reefs go a bit more to make sure the reefs are more on the production side. That includes putting them further away from the coast so that fishermen can't get to them as easily. But it also means putting some more insure closer to the estuary where baby fish can use them
to survive longer. Throne, both cases, it's like taking the reefs outside the sweet spot for fishermen. Yeah. Exactly. I mean big picture even the fish wouldn't be there if the reefs weren't there. So like are there ethical questions that come up for you or came up for any of the scientists
you talk to? Yeah. I mean I asked a few scientists about this. It's always interesting when you're
asking scientists to get a little philosophical. And Sean, you know, he would say yes. That's
“exactly right. We are altering the environment but that's what humans do. It's a value decision”
because the public and the state resource agencies and even the federal agencies have decided that transition is worth more to the public. Now that worth could be dollars. That worth could be enjoyment. But yeah, we are altering the ecosystem and that's what humans do. The alter the ecosystem. But I also spoke to Edward Camp. He's a scientist at the University of Florida that looks at how governments manage fisheries and aquaculture. And when I asked him this, he got very thoughtful
and quiet. And basically said, maybe we need to rethink how we manage fisheries entirely. As humans are willing to acknowledge that maybe sometimes it just has to be enough. Maybe I
don't need to catch more fish. Maybe I don't have to always catch larger fish. It's an uncomfortable
question because it runs counter to some of the most powerful concepts running through society, which is positive economic growth, capitalism, other concepts that are extend well beyond reefs. You know, lately as I report in Louisiana, I struggle with this idea that humans in nature are these separate things where one imposes its will on the other. People have been using some form of artificial reefs for centuries. And even though here on the Gulf Coast, we haven't
always been doing them in the most environmentally friendly way, like the watching machines, I think there's people like Sean Powers that are out there trying to make them better.
“And then I think there's also people like Edward Kemp asking that question of when do we stop?”
When is it enough? The push and pull. I am so glad you came on the show. Thank you so much for sharing with us what you found at the bottom of the sea, Eva. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be back. If you liked this episode, make sure to follow us on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts because it really helps the show. And if you want to learn more about artificial reefs, check out www.podcastscchange, Eva and her colleagues have more reporting there too.
Yeah, I went to Alabama and I met a charter fisherman, a chef, an official leaf builder. Two of those people are reality TV stars. You don't have to listen to fire. Apple's Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Also, for waivers, if you have a question about how your local environment is changing email it to us. Record a voicemail and send it to [email protected].
We may look into it for a future episode of NaturePost. This episode was produced by Hannah Chin. It was edited by Rebecca Lumieras, Tyler Jones check the facts. Robert Rodriguez was the audio engineer. Sam Polson composed and produced our nature quest being music. We publish new episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. Thanks for listening to shortwave from NPR.
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